True Crime All The Time - Marc Dutroux Part 2

Episode Date: April 18, 2022

Marc Dutroux was a Belgian serial killer and child rapist. In 1989 Dutroux was convicted of five sexual assaults and sentenced to thirteen years in prison. He only served three years. Over the next four years, he kidnapped and raped young girls, some of whom he murdered. He had several accomplices, including his own wife. The case led to speculation about inefficiency and corruption in Belgian law enforcement and politics. The public denounced the police for failing to pursue leads and ignoring witnesses. Join Mike and Gibby for the 2nd and final part of their discussion on Marc Dutroux. This remains one of Belgium’s most notorious criminal trials. On August 13th, 1996 Marc Dutroux and two accomplices, one his wife, were arrested for kidnapping two young girls. He led the police to five more bodies but claimed he didn’t kill the missing girls. He was part of an elaborate network that trafficked young girls for the Belgian elite. In this episode, we’ll discuss a parliamentary inquiry into the case, mysterious witness deaths, and Dutroux’s trial eight years after his arrest. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 279 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime. Mike Gibson, give me, how are you? Hey man, I'm doing good. How about yourself? I am doing very, very well. You and I just got done doing our weekly Patreon video. We did.

And we were telling everybody those fans that are going to be at CrimeCon that we're going to do like a meetup on Saturday night. It's going to be at the Indigo Lounge. in Bowleys. Okay. At 9 o'clock. So I want to throw that out there. We'll throw it out on unsolved as well. It's pretty early in the morning.

Yeah. Do you think I should have clarified 9 p.m.? I'm just saying. For you, I should have because you'll be drinking mimosas and all kinds of stuff at 9. That's right. Bloody Mary's. You,

you drink from morning to night. Whatever I got to do. Drink anything that pours from what I understand. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Brian Trezinski jump out at our highest level. Hey, thanks, Brian. Ava Payne. What's going on, Ava?

Richard Lawrence. Hey, Richard. Charlene DeMarc. What's going on, DeMarc? Kelly Ritchie. Thank you, Kelly. Dwayne Keith. What's up, Keith?

Kendra Shoshak. Shoshak. Shoshak redemption? Yeah, just like that. Yeah. Crystal Shed Rock. What's going on, Shred Rock? Go Blue jumped out at our highest level.

Well, must be one of the Blue Man. In the Blue Man group? Yeah. Oh, sure. Tammy Lydon. jumped out of our highest level. What's going on, Tammy? Rosie Perez.

I love it when those actors come out and support us. Great actress. Jen M. What's going on, Jen? Paula Marcella. Hey, Marcella. Stevie James. What's going on, Stevie?

And last but not least, Melissa Tant. Appreciate that, Melissa. Yeah, so thanks for all the new Patreon support. And then if we go back into the Vault Gibbs, this week we selected libido works. Well, really does, and thank you. All right. And we appreciate the long-term support.

as well. For PayPal, we had donations from Rita Cannon. What's going on, Rita? Tor, Johann Solv, Anderson. Well, thank you, Tor. And Judy Hall. Well, hi, Judy. So thanks to you as well. Gibbs, right now on True Crime All the Time Unsolved, we have an episode out on the Route 29 stalker. Yeah, what a great episode this is going to be. You know, we're looking at East Coast area from Florida all the way up to Maryland, looking at the late 1990. into the early 2000, nine victims. So make sure you check it out and follow along with us. Yeah, absolutely. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time?

I am ready. So we are finishing up with part two on Mark Dutro. I don't know what to say about this guy, Gibbs. Obviously, a brutal rapist and murderer, one of Belgium's most notorious criminals. He was a bad guy. Really bad guy. So kind of picking up where we were, you know, in last week's episode, or setting it up on August 13th, 1996, Mark Dutro and two accomplices, one, his wife, were arrested for kidnapping

two young girls. He led the police to five more bodies, but claimed that he didn't kill the missing girls. He said he was part of an elaborate network that trafficked young girls for the Belgian elite. And these claims were corroborated by an accomplice and through the statements made by Regina Luth. In this episode, we'll discuss a parliamentary inquiry into the case, some mysterious witness deaths. And there are quite a few of them. Sure are. And Dutro's trial that occurred eight years after his arrest.

And I think as we said in episode one, right, some of the details of this case are extremely. namely graphic, they are disturbing. According to the BBC, on April 9th, 1997, a parliamentary commission investigated Dutro's crimes and found the police, quote, inhumane, inept, inefficient, and ill-equipped. Not really things you want to have said about your police force. No, it's not painting a nice picture. No, not at all. Now, they did determine that, there were no accomplices in high positions, but the commission agreed that the police failed in a number of aspects. René Mishop, the police officer in charge of the investigation, told the commission that it was a genuine mistake. That's what he called it, that he failed to find

Julian Melissa in November 1995. He said the entrance to the cellar was hidden. And to him, the voices seem to be coming from outside the home. Hey, look, if you're not there to experience what he heard and all you can do is this examined it after the fact, but it sounds like he probably should have looked a little bit more in detail. I think we said that last in last episode, right? Can you check it out a little bit more? Again, it's always hard to second guess the action by anyone, really, but especially the

police, because you're, you're not. not there. You don't know exactly what they're going through or the exact scenario or situation. So for me, it really kind of centers around the word mistake. Obviously, it was a mistake. You know, he's admitting that. I should have done X. But here's, you know, some of the factors I was dealing with. I can't imagine that this guy didn't want to find them. I think what I take issue about is the fact that the other items they found when they're at the house. Yeah, you know, it came out that from him, he admitted to finding a speculum on the floor of the house in Marconnell.

Now, I know every female listening will know what that is. I'm assuming a lot of males know what it is as well. It's really a device used for one thing. And you normally find it in, you know, a doctor's office. you don't find it just lying around most people's homes. Very strange to find it in somebody's home. Yeah. If I walked into your house and there was one just sitting on the coffee table, I would be like,

okay, we need to talk because you're going to have to provide me with some insight as to what is going on here. Yeah. So it's not the thing I should use to hold my bag of chips open with? No, no, absolutely not. Oh. My wife has told me about it in great detail. it's not something that I would ever want to experience. I'm glad I don't have to.

I feel bad for her when, you know, when she has to. Right. But it wasn't just the finding of it, Gibbs. Michaud said that he picked it up and he gave it to Michelle Martin. There was no forensic testing done on it. He didn't even take it with him.

Apparently during the search of the home, they also found undeveloped films and videos. They didn't develop any of the film and they didn't watch anything that they found. And it's been said that these films contained evidence of Dutro constructing the dungeon in the cellar. See, and that's why I think they catch a lot of heat. Yeah. No, no, no. There's no doubt.

We said it in, in episode one. This is a case where a lot of people feel as though there were mistakes made by police. And I think when the facts come out, okay, it's pretty easy to see some of them. An autopsy revealed that Melissa Russo was raped repeatedly over an extended period of time. But there was no DNA analysis to show who raped her, even though both the autopsy done on Melissa and Julie state that their bodies were not severely decomposed. and that samples were taken. So they have samples, but no answers. Well, let's just say they had samples,

but nobody ever saw like an analysis done to see who that sample belonged to. Corrine Russo asked the question in an interview with the Guardian. She asked, where are the results of the swabs taken from Melissa's body for analysis? We know swabs were taken. It says so in the reports. but there are no results. She said, I've asked the prosecutor repeatedly and no one seems to know. And again, you and I always talk about it's, you know, you don't want to be so tough on the police,

but when things are glaring, when they're obvious, you have to point them out and you have to ask the questions. It's these type of things that really erode confidence. Sure. Right? In authorities. Well, and I'm guessing Melissa and Julie's family are not happy about all this, right? No, they're not happy at all.

You know, as technology has advanced, especially around DNA. Okay, it's such a powerful tool. We all know it is. It's used to put people away. It's used to exclude people. I think, you know, a lot of people almost just expect it in newer cases where, things are found that have DNA on them, they expect that analysis to be done and they expect, you know, the results to be run against a database. Yeah. And then they want to know what police

found. So to say, we don't know what happened to this analysis. If he was even performed, I think no matter what country you're in, if you're a juror and, you know, you're sitting in that jury box and you're hearing testimony and you're hearing police, let's say, talk about how they don't know what happened to this or they don't know what happened to that. They don't know if this was even ever done. Again, you're talking about the erosion of confidence in law enforcement. So the official story is that Mark Dutro kidnapped Julie and Melissa for his own sadistic pleasures. He held them in this cellar, right, that he had constructed. They survived for four months and then died of starvation either on the day of or right before he returned home from jail.

Because no one would feed them. Now, somebody had to have fed them at some point, though. Here, this is the part that I don't understand. You know, you hear it in survival situations all the time. What is it? three days without water, three weeks without food. Right. Is kind of the normal line that you hear quite a bit. I know for a fact from reading different newspaper articles that the girls' parents do not believe they could have survived for so long with almost no food or water. I don't think it's possible.

I don't think it's physically possible. I shouldn't even say I don't think. it's not physically possible for someone to survive four months without food or water. Yeah. It's just not possible. Somebody was helping at one point. Now, there are some additional autopsy reports which show that the girls may not have survived their sexual abuse injuries. So, you know, I think that has led some people to speculate.

Yeah, maybe they weren't given much food and water, but that is not maybe what actually actually killed them, you know, they died more at the hands of Mark's sexual abuse. It took a while. Right. But, you know, it's, it's heartbreaking to think of these two young girls being locked in a cage, a cell, for a period of time and what they went through and then being, you know, all alone, just the two of them with very little to survive on. The Russo's do not think. They were, were kept in the cellar the entire time because Melissa was allegedly seen in an upstairs room of a nightclub in Charlotte, but it's been alleged that the police never followed up on this leap. Now, again, I don't know the validity of that. I do find it strange that you're going to go to

the trouble to construct an underground prison cell. Right. And then at some point, you're going to take the chance of taking one or maybe both of these girls out into the public. That seems strange to me. Unless they drugged them up somehow. Yeah, I'm not saying it couldn't have happened. It just seems like a strange thing to do. But again, you know, we're trying to get into the mind of a sadistic, murderous killer. Right. It's very hard to do to use your rational brain and try to say, well, this doesn't make sense or that doesn't make sense. I think to some of these people, the things they do make perfect sense and to the rest of us were dumbfounded.

But again, why not follow up on the lead? Yeah, I think you can say that about everything, right? If that is true, it's like a mark against the authorities. Additionally, it's been said that hairs were collected from the seller that were never analyzed. Apparently a judge refused to have them tested despite pushing, from prosecutor Michelle Borlai, who believe the hairs might reveal possible co-conspirators. So, you know, we get into this case, right?

We talked about a little bit in episode one. We know we have some really bad people. But the thought is that potentially there's this much, much bigger ring involving human sex trafficking and how high did it go? how many influential people were involved, why would this judge not allow these hairs to be tested? I'm not casting aspersions on him by saying, I think he was involved in this, this or this.

I'm just questioning why, what's the harm in testing these hairs? I think probably a lot of people might have had that same question, right? I think people still do. Yeah. Investigators found that after kidnapping Anne, Fia and Sabina, Dutro received huge cash deposits in his bank account.

But they couldn't find the source of the money. They also revealed that in one of his houses, they found building materials and an underground tunnel, which led to several unfinished sellers. And he was getting ready to build even more holding rooms. I mean, this is like a Kiss the Girls type thing. If you remember that movie in the Alex Cross series, you know, these women were collected and held underground.

It's scary stuff. But I want to go back to the money because I think, you know, these big cash deposits really has a lot of people thinking, okay, some of these claims may be true. You've got rich people paying him to do, you know, all of these nasty, sorted things for them. But we know that world exists. It does. But Dutroux would not face trial until 2004. In the meantime, a series of disturbing events, shocked donation, gives, since 1995, more than 20 witnesses connected to this case have died under mysterious circumstances,

a 2001 documentary titled Mark Dutro and the Dead Witnesses, produced by public service German TV channel ZDF, provides the majority of the following information. Jean-Paul Tamino rented a garage, across from a hangar rented by Dutro. He died on April 2nd, 1995, after telling a friend that he knew some important information about Mark Dutro.

Gibbs, his foot, was found in a river in 1996. The rest of his body has never been found. Jean-Paul's mother said that he disappeared after he can't. what he knew to a friend. This friend came to her a few weeks after he went missing and said he thought Jean Paul was hiding because he was scared. If this guy really knew something incriminating about Mark and was set to tell somebody or did tell somebody and then all of a sudden vanished. Pretty mysterious. Very mysterious. You got to wonder what this guy knew. What got him in this type of trouble? What did he say? Well, I can't. I can't. I can't. I can't. I can't. I can't. I can't. I can't. I can't. I can. I can't. I can. I can. I can. I can't

sit here and say that definitively Mark Dutroo killed this guy. What I will say, Gibbs, is that Dutro was a killer. We know that. So if he found out that someone and an acquaintance, a neighbor knew something very incriminating about him, what are the chances that he would even hesitate to kill this person? He's killed before. Why would he not kill this person? Alexander Andre Gosselin was an 86-year-old former metal worker who sold his house to Bernard Weinstein. After selling the home, he continued living on the property in a chalet. He told his son that he found Weinstein's behavior strange. Weinstein repeatedly asked to buy the chalet to avoid being disturbed by neighbors.

Apparently, he also tried to kill this guy's dog. Gosselin died on July 4th, 1995, after experiencing severe abdominal pains, and then the house burned down in January 1997 in what was determined to be in arson. So again, we're going to go through what are considered, you know, a number of mysterious deaths, quasi connections. They're all pretty interesting. Some may be connected. Some may not.

all may be connected, all may be not, I don't know. I was going to say as a standalone event, maybe doesn't catch anybody's eye. But when you box them together, you're like, hmm. Oh, when you find out so many different people, more than 20 witnesses. Yeah. I think that's what conspiracy theorists look at and say, that number is too big to discount. Hey, T-Cat fans, if you've recently bought anything, you've probably noticed that prices have gone up on almost everything, especially all.

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Francois Reiskins was part of the drug and crime scene in Belgium. He told his friend he wanted to talk to him about a girl named Melissa before her kidnapping was even known to the public. Francois died on July 26, 1996, just before he was set to testify about Melissa. He died after accidentally falling in front of a train. This is mob type movie stuff here. Yeah. He died accidentally by falling in front of a train. Not to say that it couldn't happen.

People do, you know, fall down into the tracks right as a train is coming. It happens. but they also get pushed, nudged, doesn't take much to nudge somebody off of the platform. And then, okay, is it a murder? Is it a suicide? Nobody really knows. Guy Goebbels was a police officer, working Julia and Melissa's case. He died on August 25, 1995 of a gunshot wound to the head. The official manner of death was ruled a suicide. but his family has insisted that he had no reason to take his life.

So again, there's no hard evidence here, right? There's just people who died who had some connection to the case. Bruno Taglia Farrow worked as a scrap metal merchant. He knew Mark Dutro. There were rumors that he was blackmailed and forced to commit crimes. He told his wife in 1995 that he was going to die because he knew too much. His wife told a friend that he got rid of the car used to kidnap two young girls. And then Bruno was found dead on November 5th, 1995.

His death was initially declared a suicide. But samples from his body were sent to the U.S. for analysis and showed that he was poisoned. So again, you don't really have a smoking gun here, but for someone to be poisoned. That's a little bit tougher than falling in front of a train. Sure. Unless he accidentally poisoned himself and most people don't. It just seems like somebody's doing a pretty good cleanup job. Yeah. And I think that's what a lot of people believe was going on.

But if this whole thing is as big as many people think it is, then you could have a lot of people who have a vested interest in not wanting these individuals to later be able to say, what they know to testify. They don't want that. We mentioned that documentary and the team that worked on that interviewed Claude Thoreau, an associate of Mark Dutro. According to Thoreau, Dutro and his wife wanted Taglia Faro dead.

They offered this guy, Claude, 50,000 francs to buy the murder weapon. So again, you have to say this with everything. If this is true, it's very damning. Simon Ponsolet was a police officer investigating Dutro's involvement in a car smuggling ring.

He was fatally shot while working in his office on the night of February 21, 1996. Michelle Piro was a nightclub owner, familiar with the Red Light District in Charleroy. He contacted Julie and Melissa's families about three months after Dutro's arrest and asked for a meeting. He was fatally shot in a parking lot on December 5th, 1990. It's just all adding up right now. Well, it's adding up to something. Now, people are shot every day all over the world. But this guy was potentially connected to the case.

So was this a random shooting, a random act of violence, or was it as many people think connected to this larger conspiracy? Joseph Tousan, a confessor of Michelle Martin, died on March 5th, 1997 of a heart attack. Christiane Conradz was a prisoner who was going to testify about his connection to Dutro. He escaped while at court a few days before he was going to testify. He was later found dead on March 7th, 1997. So we've talked about some of these people before, some of these in episode one.

I think when you say this person was set to testify. and then they're later found dead before they can testify. Right. That's when, you know, the conspiracy theories really start to ramp up. Because you can make the case that there is somebody, maybe somebody very powerful pulling the strings who doesn't want to see these people testify. Now, they may not give a rat's ass about Mark Dutro. But what they do care about is what else could come out. about him that would then implicate themselves or other powerful people. So I guess by that logic, they do have a vested interest in what happens to Mark

Dutro. Jose Step, a well-connected person who claimed he had information on Dutroo, died on April 25th, 1997, two days before he was set to testify. This was a guy who was pretty well known in the community. He was trusted. he was the guy who knew everything that was going on. A few weeks after Mark was arrested, Step called a journalist and the gendarmy to report that he had information on Mark Dutra.

Two days before his appointment, some guy ran him over and the EMS workers were unable to revive him. It was reported that this guy's inhaler was found next to him. And then investigators found Roehypnot. in his asthma breathing device. Very strange. Very strange because I think, you know, most people know what rohypnal is.

It's sometimes referred to as the date rape drug. But I think what many people find strange is that it's reported that no autopsy was ever performed after his death. Now, I will say people get run over. Accidents happen. Autopsies are not performed on every person. who died. But I think if you find a guy's inhaler and you determine that there is rohypnal in it, maybe that piques your interest a little bit to say maybe an autopsy should be performed.

We need to know what was going on in this guy's system. I would think it would warrant it. And I think that's what people point to. Gerard Vanness, another police officer working the case died on November 16th, 1997. Brigitte Jinnar, a dentist and friend of Michael Neuul, died on April 5th, 1998 of an apparent suicide. And Conevoda contacted the police to tell them about Dutro's connection to an Eastern European porn ring. And then she was found dead. On April 7th, 1998, she had been beaten, strangled, and dumped in the river. I think there's just way to make.

of these not to be connected somehow. Oh, and we got a bunch more. I mean, it's overwhelming the number of people. Now, you still have to ask the question, what does it mean and does it mean anything? But I think as the numbers add up, it's really hard to think that there are this many isolated deaths for there not to be some sort of connection, right? These are all people who are alleged to either or have information about individuals, some even already known to have been set to testify. Okay. I mean, at some point, almost common sense tells you that where there's smoke, there's fire. Gina Pardans was a social worker who supported victims of childhood sexual abuse.

She told her friends that she saw a video of a child being murdered and recognized one of the perpetrators as Michelle Newell. Obviously, we talked about Newell a lot in episode one. She reported to the police that she was being threatened with death by a car accident. A few days before she died, she wrote a letter reporting that she had received death threats, that she feared for her life. She believed she was under surveillance and that her phone was tampered with. A stranger approached her on the train and told her to stop her work or she wouldn't live long. And then Gina died in a car accident on November 15th,

1998. Yeah, these people aren't messing around, are they? No, and here you have someone who, you know, reported to the police that she was being threatened,

that she would die in a car accident. And then she dies in a car accident. Okay. That's eerie. Fabian, Joparpar, Bruno Taglaferio's wife told the media, She was going to find her husband's killer.

In December 1998, she found some documents that showed her husband had asked for police protection. Fabian was found dead in her bed on December 18, 1998. Her mattress had been set on fire. A bottle of methanol was found in the room, but her death was declared a suicide. They assume she did it to herself. Yeah. But according to Fabian's friend, she did the laundry and boy, boiled water for some potatoes before her death.

Yeah, who would do something like that? Well, and you bring this up a lot, especially on unsolved, right, where there is discrepancies about the way that somebody died. You know, somebody is saying it was a suicide. Other people are saying it's not. One of the things you always talk about is why would you get a week's worth of groceries? Why would you do this? why would you make plans if you knew that you were going to take your life?

Why would you do the laundry? I don't like doing the laundry anyway. When it's a good day. When I'm in a good mood. If I knew that I was going to take my life, I sure as heck wouldn't put that down on my to do list. And I'm not trying to make light of that at all. I just think it's a great point that you bring up in these situations where people believe

that someone took their life and it's like, you know, the circumstances around it just don't seem to point to that. Right. If you were going to take your own life, would you set yourself on fire? I mean, all the ways to do it. That would be brutal. Yeah. Hubert Masa, public prosecutor, died of suicide on July 13th, 1999 one month after he began working the Dutro case. He didn't leave a suicide note for his family. Again, that's something that a lot of people look at. Not that everyone does. And not that a lot of people don't take their lives because it happens quite a bit.

But again, just another person with some connection to this case that, you know, ends up dead. And the other thing that you have to point out, Gibbs, is that many of these deaths are being ruled a suicide. I think you can argue that some of these deaths. or actually suicides, but I think it's hard to say that all of them are. Yeah, I would agree with you. I would agree with you. Gregory and Tiffany, a police officer, died of suicide by hanging on August 15th, 1999.

Again, you have quite a few police officers. Now, I think it's pretty well known that, you know, being a police officer is a tough job. There are quite a bit of suicides. I believe Gibbs among law enforcement. enforcement. But these people all happened to have some connection with the Mark Dutro case. That's why we're bringing them up. Sandra Clay's was Michelle Leleva's ex-girlfriend. She reported hearing him and Dutro talk about various ways to make money. She died on November 4th, 1999 of suicide. Bernard Routman was a film producer. He was accused of kidnapping a child because the

police found children toys and clothes in his home. They had interrogated him several times with no success. One day he decided that he wanted to come clean about everything. And then he died in a mysterious car crash on his way to testify against Mark Dutro. So suspicious. And I would back up your point, right? Some are much more suspicious than others. Christoph Van Hex, a journalist, drove his car into a pole and died.

again, that could just be a car accident. How many car accidents occur around the world every day? Sure. But maybe not. Jean-Jacques Faron, a supposed pedophile hunter, died on March 1st, 2001 of a heart attack. Pierre Paul Dirich, who knew Michelle Newell and was reported to be a pimp, died of suicide on May 17, 2001. Philippe DeLuse, a lawyer and acquaintance of Newell, died on November 15th, 2001 of unknown causes. Nadez, Renard, a disco owner, and Jean-Paul Tamino's girlfriend died in a car crash in November 2001.

Just before she was set to turn in a list of Dutro's contacts to the police. So again, you know, you have some of these that, okay, they could be explained away as just accidents or actual suicides. But I think any of these where the person is about ready to do something against Mark Dutro, you really have to look at that and think that is strange timing. Right before somebody's getting ready to testify, right before they're getting ready to say what they know about somebody,

either Mark or somebody in his circle, they die. Yeah. Well, seems like Mark Circle was pretty powerful. And I think that's what, you know, a lot of people really look at in this case. Yes, Mark Dutro was a horrible, nasty monster. But was he doing this only for his sadistic pleasures? Or was he doing this for a bunch of other, you know, people?

Some of them very powerful, very rich. So we just talked about a lot of people, right, who died with some type of connection to this case. There was one important living witness. Marie Louise Henrotti claimed she saw Julie and Melissa enter a car in front of her house. In a 1995 interview, she said she saw a dark car with four doors. The car sat there and then a man opened the door. The girls entered the car and the driver sped off. Unfortunately, she suffered from dementia and therefore she was unable to testify. Well, if anything, everybody should be at least crashing their heads thinking, how are some of these tied into this case? At a minimum. Yeah, no, absolutely. On April 23rd, 1998, due troll stole a police

officer's gun, and he escaped for about three hours after he was allowed to leave prison to examine files for his upcoming trial. Imagine that. Imagine Jeffrey Dahmer or, you know, some notorious serial killer here in the U.S. and them saying, yeah, go ahead. Just, you know, go to this place so you can examine some files. Yeah. Would never happen.

No. But again, that shows you the difference. And I'm not saying one is bad and one is good or one is better than the other. I'm just pointing out the differences in the criminal justice. in different countries. I mean, let's face it, Gibbs. Belgium doesn't have the killers that we've had over the year. No.

You know, Mark Dutroux is really an outlier, I think, in that country. Not to say that they don't have some crime and some killers, but, you know, he's kind of the, the one that blows the curve. He's definitely a rarity, what he did and how many people he murdered. Yeah, in that country, absolutely. for sure. It was said that the interior and justice ministers resigned after his escape. It's not something that looks real great, right? You've got this guy who the whole nation thinks as a monster. What did we say in in the beginning of episode one? There was a whole bunch of people

that had his last name that legally changed it. Right. That's how much people in the country hated this man. After hearing this story, why wouldn't you want to change it? Sure. You don't want to be associated with this guy in any way, shape, or form. Dutroo took his case to the European court for human rights, claiming he was unfairly jailed because the government had no intention of bringing him to court. And we've already said, right, it took like eight years for him to finally get to court. In 2002, Guardian writer Olinca Frankel interviewed Michelle Neal. He was accused of kidnapping Latisha in exchange for.

supplying Le Le Leva with ecstasy tablets. He told her, I am the monster of Belgium. He felt confident, though, that he would never go to trial and that a jury would never hear the evidence against him because he had information about people in the government. This goes to the heart of this case, right? Separate from the nasty criminal acts that we know Mark Dutro committed, it's this bigger conspiracy theory that people in the government, the Belgian elites, they had some shady stuff going on. Sure did. And it sounds like they had some people in the right positions to protect them.

Well, Michelle Neuil definitely thought so. I mean, he's not telling this to a close confidant. He's telling this to a writer for the Guardian. He knows this is going to be published. In the 2001 documentary Mark Dutro and the missing witnesses, Newell said of Regina Luf. I have never met this woman. Furthermore, she doesn't speak a word of French and I don't speak Dutch.

You might say that you don't have to speak someone's language to rape that person. But if you attend group sex, you would probably speak the language of the ones who organize it. This woman needs to be admitted to a psychiatric institution. So not only is this guy talking to the Guardian, he's willing to sit and be interviewed for documentaries. And I think you have to ask the question, Gibbs, why is that? You know, is it because he was so comfortable that he was going to be protected that he had no worries? I think that's what it was.

I think he wasn't concerned about any negative outcome towards himself. Maybe he was just concerned about the. negative publicity and one to two try to get ahead of it. One police officer told the Sydney Morning Herald in 2003. I have never seen a man arrested with so little evidence. He is an awful person, but there is nothing to suggest he did this for the conspiracy theory to stand up. You need to believe that Newell was part of it.

If he is not, then the conspiracy dies. I can tell you, I am a non-believer. I want proof. Olinka Frankel also spoke to the prosecutor general of liege and Tili about the lack of DNA testing. Tili told the Guardian in 2002, there was no need to get the hairs analyzed as no one else entered the cage. There was no network. So there was no need to look for evidence of one.

In any case, the hairs have now all been analyzed, all 5,000. and the results of this analysis, nothing. No evidence of any relevance in the Dutro affair, which proves, of course, that the judge was right all along. But I want to go back to the one sentence. There was no network, so there was no need to look for evidence of one. Well, how do you know there isn't until you look at all the evidence?

Exactly. I thought that was such a weird thing to say. You got to take that step to determine that. Now, she's saying, well, all 5,000 hairs were later analyzed and nothing came back. Okay, but if you don't analyze it, you never know that. Yeah, that's why I thought that one sentence was very strange. Frankel asked who raped the children. Tilly said Dutro did it.

Franco asked how they planned to prove this since they have no forensic proof. Teeley then said that they did perform DNA testing on the bodies, but the tests were inconclusive because the bodies were too decomposed for DNA. The trials of Dutro, Martin, and Lelyeva started on March 1st, 2004. Gibbs 569 witnesses would testify at trial. What a big amount of witness. That's a huge number. According to the BBC, a panel of psychiatrist who analyzed Dutro after his 1996 arrest

found that he did not fit the traditional profile of a pedophile. They concluded the age of the victims did not seem to arouse in him any given effect or to play a particular role beyond allowing him to kidnap them to manipulate them to confine them. Okay. Well, he's still a rapist and murderer. They're just saying, we don't believe that he's a pedophile. Okay.

Or as the English would say, a pedophile. Yes. I've noticed that on documentaries. That Jimmy Saville documentary. Right. They all pronounced it pedophile. Pita. Dutro admitted to holding Melissa and Julie hostage in his home,

but would not admit to kidnapping or murdering them. What is it when you hold somebody hostage in your home? Well, he claimed that he tried to save some of the victims. and said in court that Melissa died in his arms, he accused higher-ups in law enforcement of refusing to investigate his leads, which would prove that he was part of a network. So, I mean, I think in answering your question, he's saying, okay, I won't admit to kidnapping. I won't admit to murder. I will only admit to holding them in my home. So as far as the kidnapping, you can make the inference that he's saying somebody else in the network kidnapped them.

I just held them. And then he's saying, I tried to help some of the victims? Sure. What? Put him in cellars? How many baddies do we talk about who try to make themselves look better? It's a very natural thing for these killers. Now, I think most people have said that they don't believe he actually murdered,

Melissa and Julie? Right? There was some conflicting information we've given it, but we, it was also said that it's thought that they died either right when he got out of prison or right before. Yeah. So if that's the case, then that goes back to the whole Michelle Martin angle. Did she not feed them? Did she not give them what they needed to survive? Dutro described how he constructed the seller to. be undetectable. He also testified about coming home from prison and finding Julie and Melissa dead in the cellar. He said that he kept them in a freezer before he later buried them. So he's making the argument that he didn't kill them. They were dead by the time he got back home,

you know, after doing that four-month prison stent. He's just claiming that he buried the bodies. Yeah, he is. But it also could be. be correct. I think that's why a lot of people look at this case and they're not 100% satisfied, right, with everything that has come out. This is not a case where everything is completely bottled up or, you know, put in a box and wrapped up with a bow for you to say, yes, we know everything. Because I don't think even at the end of this, we'll know everything for sure. On April 19th, 2004, Sabina Dardin testified against Dutro in court. She said that he encouraged her to write letters to her family.

The police later found the letters in Dutro's house. Sabina described the seller as the agony room. Yeah, what a description. Yeah, terrifying, nasty. She said that she didn't think she would ever see her family again. She tried to escape once, but Dutro was so angry about it when he found out. that she never tried again. She testified that he was the only person she ever saw,

and he was the only person that raped her. And to me, Gibbs, this is very powerful. Number one, just that Sabina is able to sit in court and say all of these terrible things that happened to her. That's very tough for a victim to do. And I think it takes a lot of courage and you really have to, admire people that are willing to kind of lay that out bare because it's it's tough it's it's nasty stuff that you have to tell to strangers yeah not the easiest thing in the world to do at

at all at one point dutro was asked why he didn't give sabina to his network and he said i did not give her because i knew that she was going to be killed when i stay with someone for a time i end up becoming attached to them. And I guess at some point she was able to question Mark. She asked him, why did you not kill me? And Dutro said, I acknowledge my mistakes. I acknowledged that I abused her, but for me, there was never any question of killing her. On April 20th, Latisha testified that during her six days in the cellar, she was chained to a bed and raped. She said that Mark Dutro asked her if it hurt. while smiling.

Yeah, what a, what a sicko. POS, right? Absolutely. Police officers testified that Dutro had brainwashed the girls into thinking that he was their protector. Apparently to the point Gibbs where they kissed and thanked him during the rescue. That's a powerful tool to use when you can effectively brainwash somebody. And make them think that you're actually a good guy.

Yeah. for them or to them when in fact you're a monster. I know a big part of the trial was a trip back to the cellar on April 27th. Both Sabina and Letitia went back into that cellar according to them to come to terms with what happened to them. That takes some guts. The emotions they must have went through to see that again to relive that in their head. But I also think very powerful.

if the jurors go into that place. It's one thing, maybe to see pictures of it, to hear descriptions of it by prosecutors, but to step inside this cellar where these prison cells were constructed, where these girls were held, okay, you're going to have much stronger emotions. I think than you would just seeing pictures.

The pictures are going to be bad enough, but there's nothing like, seeing something firsthand. Oh yeah. As a prosecutor, you want them to go into those rooms. On June 10th, 2004, Mark Dutro made a final statement in court. He said, I am not a murderer. I don't contest any of my real faults. I am here to be condemned. It talks kind of in a strange way. You know, he's definitive in saying, I'm not a murderer. Sure. But then it gets a little bit murky. I don't contest any of my real faults. Okay.

Well, what are your real faults? I think according to him, he's not a murderer. He's not even a kidnapper. He's what? A holder of girls and a rapist. Those two things I think he admitted to, but wouldn't admit to some of the other. I get why somebody wouldn't want to admit to murder. Sure.

Stay away from that, right? That's going to get me some bad prison time. Well, some of this other stuff is too. but the distinction between rape and kidnapping, you know, admitting to one but not the other. Okay. Is there a reason? And is that reason because he really didn't do the kidnapping? Or in his mind, is there some reason why he doesn't want to be known as a kidnapper,

but is totally fine with being known as a rapist? It didn't really matter, though, because on June 17, 2004, Dutro was found guilty of six counts of kidnapping, four counts of murder, and three counts of rape. He was sentenced to life or 30 years in prison with an additional 10 years at the government's discretion. Since the sentence dated back to his first arrest in 1996, this means he could be in prison until 2036. It's hard to believe Gibbs that that is 14 years away. 14 years away from this guy potentially getting out of prison. Well, let's hope he doesn't.

Michelle Martin was found complicit in two murders and convicted of helping kidnap victims. She was sentenced to 30 years in prison. Rightfully so. Yeah, rightfully so. She's not going to do near that amount. We'll talk about it in the minute. But Michelle Newell was acquitted of all other crimes except for conspiracy to provide drugs. And he was sentenced to five.

years in prison. A little light. A little light, but I also think, you know, the evidence against him was not nearly as strong as it was against, you know, some of the other individuals. Right. Michelle Le Le Leva was sentenced to 25 years in prison. So it did take eight years, right? From arrest to trial to conviction as a long time. But after eight years, the Mark Dutrival. case was officially closed. The problem is many questions remained. I think on the part of the victim's families, as well as the public, they were disappointed that the trial never truly addressed this alleged sex trafficking network.

Well, majority of the witnesses died? Yeah. Or were killed? Potentially. Yeah. And if you were a remaining witness, I think you'll be given it some second thoughts if you want to come out and say anything or testify. Yeah, that's actually a good point. I don't have any evidence of that, but I wonder if there were some people who decided either not to testify at all

or if they were compelled to testify to hold some things back because they were just too scared. On August 30, 2018, the BBC revealed that Mark Dutro's attorney wrote a letter on his behalf, offering to answer the victim's family's questions. Dutrouro wrote that he wanted to heal their wounds in some very modest way. The families rejected this offer because they believed he was just trying to impress the parole board. I think a lot of times when you're talking about the families of victims, they don't want to hear anything from the monster who committed such heinous crimes against their

loved ones. We don't want this guy to be talking. We don't want to give him a platform. We don't want to hear anything from him. Right. And's father, Paul Marshall, told BBC, after 23 years, it's time this circus just stops. We're not getting involved. Michelle Leleva was released from prison in October 2019. Michelle Newell died in 2019. Now, obviously, he only got five years gives and he didn't even serve all of that. I read somewhere where he only served about a third of his sentence. I also saw where he, you know, he wrote a book and it sold a bunch of copies. Michelle Martin is now free. She was released on parole in 2012 after serving 16 years on July 31st, 2012. The media announced that Martin would be transferred to a convent as part of her conditional

release program. She was ordered to stay away from the victim's families and forbidden to speak to the media about any of the crimes. She can leave the convent, but only under supervision. It was a little bit hard to find very current information on her. From what I understood, probably later sometime this year, she'll be eligible for full release. So it's kind of a long parole period, right? She served 16 years. She's on a conditional kind of release parole for about for like 10 years but pretty soon she'll just be walking around a free person yeah 28 years later though that's understandable based on the sentence that she got yeah it doesn't make what she did any less horrific we'll probably talk about it at the end because she's fascinating to me as a as a part of this case according to the

BBC. Martin's lawyer said she deserved to be given a chance to redeem herself. He said there is something human remaining in Mrs. Martin even though she acknowledges herself. She is responsible for very serious acts. She paid the price for it. She did it in respect to the law. And now there is this project where she wants to redeem herself. And this will be another way to do her sentence. But I don't think some of the victims, family members felt the same. You know, Paul Marshall said there was only one word for this. Absurd. That's what he said.

Yeah. Concerning Martin, he said, my fight is over and done. I lost because I know he was one of the family members. There was actually a bunch of them who were really trying to oppose her getting released early. They wanted her to serve the 30 years. Just the full extent. Yeah. Mark Dutro must satisfy five criteria to get parole.

So it is legally possible, but I still think most people think unlikely that Dutro will ever be released. If he is released from prison, he will most likely be committed to a psychiatric institution for the rest of his life. So it was a little confusing, right? He got a life sentence, but then it said 30 years plus 10 at the government's discretion. Right. I took that to mean, okay, maybe in 30 he comes up for parole, but is he going to get it?

Well, he's definitely going to try. Well, he's going to try. There's no doubt. My thought is he's less likely to get it than maybe Michelle. And he's already tried a lot of things. I know in October 2019, he filed an appeal requesting to be examined by a psychiatrist. From what I understand, one of the things that would have to happen for him to be released is that Three psychiatrists would have to determine that his risk of reoffending was very low.

I'd have a hard time signing off on that one. Boy, I would too. I'm not a psychiatrist. You're not a psychiatrist. Although you've played one on TV. Yes. How many cases have we done where psychiatrists have said this person's chance of reoffending is very low?

And man, they go on to murder people. Right. Now, it's just so happens that we're talking about. murderers, obviously there are other people who are deemed to be low risk reoffenders and they never go on to do other bad things. I'm sure, you know, it happens that way. But I'm with you. I think given what this guy did and the way that he went about it, you know, let's not forget his first prison stent, right? And then he gets out. He goes right back to doing the things that he was doing. You got to factor that in. You do. And just like with everything. You know. And just like with

everything, right? The pandemic has kind of delayed his appeal and his mental evaluations. Then on October 26, 2020, news outlets announced that Dutro will not be pursuing parole based on a psychiatric report that states he is still a danger to society. So basically, all three psychiatric experts gives came back and recommended that he abandoned in the parole application process because he's a sadistic psychopath with no remorse. So I mean, yeah, what else is he going to do? You can't keep going with this parole application if all three of these people are saying, not only are you at great risk to reoffend, you're a major danger to society and you're a

sadistic psychopath with no remorse. With no remorse. As a result of the Mark Ducro case, the gendarme, disbanded and a single national police force was established in Belgium. Many Belgians believe that a pedophile ring of politicians and businessmen were involved in that Mark Dutro was just one piece of this huge puzzle slash conspiracy. The Brussels Times wrote in an anniversary article, now 25 years after two little girls got into a stranger's car,

there is a portion of the Belgian population that believes there was, and probably still is, a pedophile ring reaching into the utmost heights of the Belgian system, involving the rich and the powerful with the protection of magistrates, judges, politicians, and even royalty. Even royalty, huh? I just think it goes to show, you know, how many people believe that there is much more to this than just Mark Dutro. And then what Mark Dutro did, just on his own, is horrible. Sure is.

But when you think of a network and how expansive it could be and how many victims it could include, you know, we kind of talked about some judges doing things that were strange. Okay. Is that what led to some people thinking that some of these people in powerful positions are helping, you know, create this barrier so that the rich and the powerful don't get exposed, I'm sure it is. The writer went on to say, this belief requires no evidence. And indeed, there is none and can be challenged by no evidence to the contrary.

The damage that was done to the families of the four girls who died and the two who survived is immeasurable. The damage done to Belgian society was very different, but just as irreparable. And I get what he's saying, right? A much different type of damage when you think about Belgian society, but believing that, you know, there's a bunch of crooked people in very powerful positions. It's very damaging to a society. You know, I know we dealt with Jeffrey Epstein here in America and he was powerful, rich, had a pretty influential circle of friends. I would say very powerful. Yeah. Yeah, I think in that case as well, right, people wonder how high that one goes in a somewhat similar fashion. So Gibbs, as we wrap up this episode, you know,

I said it earlier, but the Mark Dutro case, it still remains relevant today. I think, you know, it intrigues people still because we don't have all the answers. It can, continues to fascinate true crime folks all over the world because there's so many questions, right? Was Mark Dutro part of this vast child sex trafficking network? Did Michelle Newell get away with sex trafficking and sexual abuse? Because, you know, he had some type of information on powerful people in the government were all these witness deaths that we talked about all just coincidences. or was there some sort of cover up going on? I don't think we have answers to any of these questions.

No. And you know, I have to talk about Michelle Martin. You know, there's that old song, Gibbs, Stand by Your Man. Right. But this woman was, in my opinion, ridiculous. That's probably not even the right word. Not only did she know about her husband's crimes, but she participated. She sure did.

And most of them, a lot of them, she was left to watch over two young girls that her husband had kidnapped or he was found to have kidnapped. He said he didn't. While he was doing that short sentence, she let him starve to death. No doubt Mark Dutro is a horrible human being and trying to figure out how he could do the things he did. That's mystified. You know, it's one of the things that we do in all the cases.

We're trying to figure out how these people can make the decisions that they make. How can they go through with these. these things and think, yeah, this is what I should be doing. I never understand it. But you know, you also have to look at the actions of Michelle Martin. She too is a horrible human being. Yeah. Who is out probably right now this minute, maybe supervised, maybe not, I don't know, somewhere in Belgium shopping in a cafe or grocery store or something. She'll have to live with this the rest of her life. She will. Now, you heard her attorney say she wants to redeem herself, maybe she can. I don't know if redemption is the right word because how do you ever do something

to make that up? You can't make that up. You can't make it right. Now, can she lead a good, clean life moving forward? Yeah, maybe. That's all she can do. She can't take back what she did. she can't make it right to the victims, to the victims' families. And to your point, she's going to have to live with it. Yeah. But I wonder with her as well, how could she bring herself? Remember, we said in episode one, she was an elementary school teacher. How could she bring herself to make the decisions that she did?

To go along with these things, to condone them, to participate in many of them. I just don't get it. Yeah, just hopefully when she gets a full. full release, like you said, she'll be able to live a clean life. Yeah, I think one of the big problems with this case is there are just so many questions that I don't know that we're going to have the answers to anytime soon. Will some of this stuff come out later? Maybe. Maybe, right? We could have some deathbed confession type scenario. We could have some people that just decide to, you know, tell what they know.

but it's also possible that this is a case where, you know, there's a lot of unanswered questions that never get answered. But that's it, Gibbs, for our case on Mark Dutro. The one thing I think it does show you, much like the Saeed and I case in Iran, every country has its bad people. Man, there are bad people all over the world. And after all these episodes, we've proven that. Yeah. I mean, we don't have here in the U.S. a monopoly on serial killers. We have more than our fair share, though. Right.

I will say that. That's a little disturbing, but we've got some voicemails, though. You want to check those out? I do. Let's hear them. Hey, Mike, says Christina. Mel Carrier transferred from Middletown, Ohio, down to West Palm Beach. I'm actually at Green Acres.

If you want to sing it, go for it. It's hard not to. Love your podcast. Just started listening about a year ago. I feel like you all are some boys from home. I grew up in Kentucky, and I just really enjoy it. I've been listening backwards on Audible, but

today kind of got to me. I got to Tommy Lundsselden. Oh, my God. My daughter had a baby about a month ago, and what he did to that pregnant woman, and it just choked me up, and I got sick, and I had to turn it off for a minute,

because I was about to cry, and I felt some of a tape for that mother effort. And I don't know why some of the other ones haven't affected me as violently, because really they all should, because they're all awful. But that just really got to me. But I just wanted to tell you all, I love your podcast.

I listen to it every day out on my mail route and just keep doing it. It's your own time kicking. You put your head on a swivel. And I love you both. Thanks. All right. We love you. So lived in Middletown, very close to where we are right now.

Sure. Yeah. Not far at all. Middletown to West Palm Beach, Florida. That is a big move. Big difference, too. Not what I'm saying. Not just in distance, but in.

area. Yeah. You know, West Palm Beach, very nice. I'm not saying Middown's not, but, you know, pretty swanky West Palm Beach, I think. Yeah. Hey, no more winter coat down there. Yeah. Weather-wise, you're in a much better place. Now, speaking to Tommy Lin-Sells, you know, you and I have said before that was an episode that affected us greatly. I sure did. It's one that we often refer back to as being a tough one. But it is interesting that some episodes, affect people more than others. You know, and it really hits people based on their life experience, what they got going on, you know, in their life at the moment.

There's all kinds of different factors, whether it's close to home, you know, there's those things as well. But we appreciate the voicemail. Hi, this is Michelle Will Factor from Detroit, Michigan. I thank you guys are awesome. I'm on unsolved. Now, I said I wasn't going to listen to it because I like when the case is are flows, but I'm on there because I can't get enough for YouTube.

You guys are great. I love you guys. Keep your on time, checking, and have a great, wonderful day. Thank you. We sure appreciate you listening to T-Cat and then jumping over to Unsolved. And we just really appreciate the voicemail. Hi, my name is Nikki. This is so exciting.

I can't believe I'm leaving a voicemail. I'm out here in Alaska right now, finishing up my degree in clinical psychology. So when I come home from a day of, therapy, I like to unwind with my favorite murder podcast, aka you guys. I'm actually from Cheshire, Connecticut, and it was so interesting to see that you did a podcast on the Cheshire murders. I have not seen anyone else cover that.

My mom worked at Cheshire Academy. She was not super close with Jennifer Petit, but I've never heard anyone else cover that story before, so that was super interesting to see. You guys are my favorite podcast. Usually I crack up all the time. Team both of you. And that's it. Thank you guys.

Keep your own time ticking. Bye. Alaska. Getting that criminal psychology degree. I like it. I like it. So the Cheshire murders, it's always been an interesting case to me. I first learned about it.

There was a documentary on HBO produced many, many years ago. This was before true crime documentaries were really in vogue and I ran across it again on HBO Max like a year or two ago and that's what prompted me to want to do that case because it is a fascinating case very fascinating but it's a good documentary i recommend it for for anybody who hasn't seen it hello boys this is cherry calling from scotland you know i've been thinking you lot have such a great and irrational audience so many of us listening to you crossed up on just seems like it goes without something to you. saying that you've got to start doing more international cases. Don't be numbs. We're needing some

T-Cat International over here. Greetings, mates, stay safe, keep your own time ticking. T-Cat International. That's one of my favorite accents of all time. Love it. Yeah. What we do, we just got done doing an international case. And we do in a number of them. Obviously, we have to sprinkle them in unless we we start a T-Cat International, but you never know. That's true. You never know. You never know. You never know. You never know what's going to happen, Gibbs. That's what makes life so much fun. We did have some mailbag. Mary Gibbs sent us a true crime book on Ann Cook to add to our collection.

So I'm going to have to check that out. I smell a future episode there. Yeah, well, thank you. She said in her note that Ann Cook was like a Dorothea Puente, but even more evil. Does it come on a tape? No, I'll read it to you like a bedtime story. How about that? Perfect.

our good friend Stephen Bobby sent us one of the serial killer bobbleheads to add to the collection Jeffrey Dahmer. Yeah, I can't wait for that to stare at me. It's looking at the video camera for our Patreon video episode, but I'll move it back to the shelf, so it's staring right at you. They also sent us some goodies from Pennsylvania as well. So we appreciate all that. We do. All right, buddy.

That is it for another episode of True Crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.