True Crime All The Time - Marcie Griffin

Episode Date: April 24, 2023

In January 2017, 34-year-old Julii Johnson was shot outside her boyfriend’s home in Warren, Michigan. Like many cases, her boyfriend was a suspect at first, but the police found evidence that indicated it was actually his ex-girlfriend and two other men who were involved in the murder.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Marcie Griffin, the ex-girlfriend of Terrell Lattner, who was Julii's current boyfriend. Lattner was looked at hard by police at first. He had an extensive criminal record, and a large amount of cash, drugs, and an illegal gun were found in his home. But it was Marcie Griffin who the police ultimately learned was the reason for Julii's death, the reasons for which are baffling. Marcie enlisted the help of two other men to carry out her plans.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital production See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 330 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson, how are you? Man, I'm doing good. 330 episodes. I know, it's kind of hard to believe. It really is.

You know, it's also hard to believe the story that I told on Patreon about breaking another toilet seed that's in the exact same spot, two and two weeks. Yeah. Lived in this house 20 years, never broke a toilet seat. That's a problem. I don't understand it. I had nothing to do with it.

I think you might have weakened it at the very, very least. Hey, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Deanna Lori Stock. Hey, Deanna. Anna Brennan jumped out of our highest level. Thank you, Anna. Susan Huberner. Hey, Susan.

Hannah Kate. What's going on, Hannah Kate? Mandy B jumped out of our highest level. Oh, awesome, Mandy. Shelby Rose Petro. Hey, thank you, Rose Petro. Lori DeLorentis. Hey, DeLorentis.

Will Beretto. What's going on, Will? Samantha Jane. Hey, there's Samantha. Holly Tapley. I appreciate that, Holly. Stuart. Hi, there, Stuart.

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What's up, Braybant? Kanisha King. Thank you, Kinesha. Susan Vickery. Hey, Susan. Trouble ice. Oh, man, don't be trouble. Nakia.

Hey, Nika. Tracy Miles jumped out at our highest level. You're awesome, Tracy. And last but not least, Lauren Burris. Hey, Burris. So we appreciate that new support. And then if we go back into the volumin to the voice, all. This week we selected Gretchen Hereford.

Hey, thank you, Gretchen. Yeah, we appreciate that long-term support as well. We also had great PayPal donations from Vivian Lour. Hey, Vivian. And Sarah Williams. Oh, thank you, Sarah. Gibbs, we have so much out right now. We have a Patreon episode that dropped Saturday night on Richard Valenti.

This is a man who murdered a number of girls, sexually assaulted, a number of girls in South Carolina. Yeah. Back in the 70s. We also have an episode out on Unsolved where we're discussing the disappearance of Brian Clutcha. Yeah, we're headed down to Florida. We're going to look into the case. We're in southern Florida.

And, you know, he moves in with his boyfriend and some other roommates and things get a little messy. Strange. And so we're kind of looking to that. But he gets up and leaves one morning, never to be heard of. overseen again. So we're kind of chase those down. Okay. Yeah. Check it out. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time? I am ready. In January 2017, 34-year-old July Johnson was shot outside her boyfriend's home in Warren, Michigan. Like many cases, her boyfriend was a suspect at first, but the police found evidence that indicated it was actually

his ex-girlfriend and two other men who were involved in the murder. And I think I've said it before, but I actually lived in Warren, Michigan. You did, yeah. My wife and I did for about three or four years before we had kids. I lived right on the border of Warren and Sterling Heights. I think it was like 12 mile, 13 miles. I can't remember. It was about three miles from Eminem.

That's all I remember. Three or four miles. Okay. Just down the road. Just down the road. July Johnson was born on. On August 25th, 1982, she was originally from Oak Park, Michigan. At the time of her death, she had a teenage daughter.

July's great aunt told Seven Action News that she was a hardworking single mother, who will be greatly missed by family, friends, and the community. July had been in a relationship with a man named Jim Terrell Latiner for about two years. Some sources list his name as James Ladner, and it seems like, he was commonly referred to as Terrell Latner. Latner was convicted of possession of a controlled substance in 1997 and cocaine and heroin possession with intent to deliver in 2003. He was released from prison in 2010 after the second conviction and was on lifetime probation

at the time of Julie's death according to Michigan Department of Corrections records. I want to believe that, Michigan was that one of the states that had the three strikes in your route when it came to drugs? Well, I know it at one point, a lot of the states had it. I don't know how many. California, I think, was the one that really put the hammer down when it came to drugs and stuff. Michigan might have been one of those as well. But you've got a couple of convictions.

So when you get this second conviction, and it's cocaine, it's heroin. with the intent to deliver. Now, my question is, how does that differ from intent to distribute? Because you see that a lot as well. Yeah. My thought is deliver, you're just, you're handing it off to one person. Right. Distribute, you're handing it out to a whole bunch of people. Yeah, maybe you're just the mule on the deliver part. Maybe. Maybe. I don't know. But he got seven years or he did seven years and lifetime probation. That's rough, man. That is rough. Hey, if you're not going to get any more trouble, it's no big deal. Yeah.

If you walk to straight and narrow, you're good. Shouldn't be a problem. Before his relationship with July, Terrell Latner was in a relationship with a woman named Marcy Griffin for 17 years. According to the Oakland press, they had two children together. Marcy was angry over his relationship with July. And she sent derogatory text messages to him about. July, she also criticized him for not doing more for his children, according to the Royal Oak Tribune. And these texts, and we'll talk about them more as we move along, they would be a very

important part of the murder case. At the time of her arrest, Marcy Griffin was in a relationship with a 58-year-old man named George Ryder. July lived with Terrell and his teenage son. It's a Stone Ridge at Heritage Village subdivision near 13 mile and mound in Warren, Michigan. I'm telling you, man, I don't know where that is exactly, but it can't have been far from where my wife and I live. Yeah. It's ringing true to you these street names. It absolutely is.

Julie often visited her mother in Oak Park, and she did so the night before her murder. It was her mother's birthday. Jocelyn Johnson told WDIV4 that she thanked July for her birthday present and told her she loved her. Now, we know that this woman is going to be murdered, right? We set it up front. When you hear, you know, something like this, you hear a mother kind of recounting the last conversation.

Number one, it's a little, it's heartbreaking. Yeah. But number two, you have to believe that that conversation. conversation gets etched in your mind for the rest of your life because of what the circumstance the circumstances around it are you're never going to forget those last words that that you said to your daughter around 730 a.m. on January 13th, 2017, July Johnson was shot outside Terrell Latner's condo as she was leaving for work. WX, XYZ Detroit reported that she was in the driveway opening the passenger side door of her car when she was shot.

She was found on the front lawn next to her vehicle. She had been shot seven times, once in the forehead and multiple times in the torso. She was pronounced dead at the hospital. That's really gruesome. You know, to be shot in the head and then also multiple times in the torso. And then the forehead. Yeah. So, you know, that tells me that somebody's in front of you, right?

They're looking at you. They are pulling the trigger. You can't shoot somebody in the forehead from behind. They want you to know who's doing this. Now, Torel Latner was inside the house at the time of the shooting. And he called 911 after he heard gunshots. According to July's mother, he heard July say, oh God, and saw a boy with a hoodie running down the street. A neighbor also saw someone running away from the area just after the shooting.

the neighbor described the person as wearing a gray hooded jacket, which matched what Latner was wearing that morning. The neighbor later said she thought the shooter was younger than Latner. So obviously, this is going to come in where he becomes a suspect and all that. But I want to talk about, you know, you're living in a neighborhood, houses all around. Now, it's 7.30 in the morning. So presumably a lot of people. are still home, getting ready for work or whatever.

Drinking their coffee. Drinking their coffee. I'm still in bed, but most people are probably up. A whole bunch of gunshots ring out. That's going to be pretty hard to mistake. It is. If it's one shot, you know, you hear people sometimes say, well, you know, is that a car backfire or something like that?

Maybe it's not discernible 100% as a gunshot. You hear seven of them in a row. You're going to know. There's no doubt that somebody is firing a gun. And whether they should or not, I think a lot of people are going to come outside to see what's going on. Yeah. I know there's been many times where I hear gunshots. And the first thing I do is walk outside, kind of look around.

Is that a smart thing to do? I don't know. Probably not. But, you know. Yeah, but that's what I do. Now, it's a good thing. here that somebody did because they got a description. If they, you know, did a Chuck Norris barrel roll over their couch and hid behind it, then you wouldn't get that. Yeah. The police search Terrell

Latner's condo in the surrounding neighborhood on the day of the shooting. A police canine tracked ascent away from the condo, but then the trail led back in the direction of the condo. So again, if you're talking about things that are going to put you on the suspect list. Yeah. Number one, you have a witness who says that the shooter was wearing essentially what you were wearing. Yep, not good. And then this canine is tracking away from your condo, but then back to it. Yeah, like you ran away to be like a different person, but somehow found yourself back to the condo.

According to forfeiture documents filed in federal court on, October 16th, 2017, investigators found $533,252. Wow. Inside Latiners condo. That's a lot of, a lot of mullah. Yeah. I mean, that's about what you carry around with you. Like, you call it pocket money.

That seems to be quite a bit. So how much we don't open that wallet? Because you have to have a, like, multiple duffel bags. Yeah. That's a little bit more than carrying around money. But, you know, that is a ton of money. It is. Who keeps over half a million dollars inside their house?

I guess if you were super rich, I don't know, maybe you got one of those big fancy safes with the infrared beams that you have to do the somersaults across. To get to it. To get to it. Stacked in all these different pile on the shelf. Maybe, maybe. But that is a boatload of money. It is.

Canines indicated what was described as a narcotics odor coming. from the money, according to M Live, the police found over a dozen cell phones inside Latner's home and they seized three of them. The filing also states that Latner was uncooperative, cursed at the detectives, and refused to accompany officers to the Warren Police Department when they arrived at the scene. I wonder why they only took a three of the dozen phones. I don't know. It always makes me wonder when you see something like that. Yeah, there must have been some reason why those. three stood out. But let's look at all of this, right? In totality, you got a boatload of money

that dogs are sniffing narcotics on. You have over a dozen cell phones. I mean, you just put all of those things together and what do you get? Some type of drug criminal operation. Yeah. I mean, it screams drugs. So it's 10 months later. He's got all this cash in the house. I don't know, does it seem like he's grieving or just going back to whatever his business was? Well, I can't tell from this information alone. I can't tell. You know, was he involved in a drug operation? We'll talk about it. But I think, you know, whatever you do for a living, it's kind of hard to say that, you know, this was his living, but I guess it was. It's how he made his money. can a person grieve, but then still go on with that part of their life?

I think they can and a lot of people do. Because number one, you got to put food on the table. You have to have money. That's true. I guess you're right. No matter if your job was legit or illegal or legal. You can grieve and still go on with it is my thought. And then at the same time, Gibbs, he's uncooperative.

He's cursing it detectives. Now, that could have been because he knows. that he's in trouble, or it could have been because, you know, they were trying to link him to the death of July and he didn't want to say anything on either count.

Or the fact they're going to take that $500,000 and lock it up somewhere and maybe that's money he still needs to pay somebody something. And it came out that the day after July was murdered. On January 14th, the police searched, Latiner's truck. And at that time, they found over $12,000 in cash, some marijuana, two cell phones, and a 9mm handgun with the serial number scratched off. It was also said that the truck had a

hidden compartment. Okay. You got a lot of stuff that's not good. No, not helping your case. Two cell phones. That's much different than 12. A lot of people have two cell phones. You might have a personal cell phone, a business cell phone. You've got four. I have a number of them. You know what I don't have is $12,000 in cash in my truck? No. And marijuana. I don't have that.

So a lot of things jump out of me here, but one that really does is, you know, this handgun with the serial number removed, however it was, scratched off. You know, that is never a good sign to law enforcement. So I'm actually kind of surprised that, you know, this happens in January. And then he's still at his house in October when they search it. Yeah. Must it's just not had enough to do anything with at that time. Yeah, maybe.

But usually that's a pretty big deal to have a gun with the serial number missing. Especially with somebody that's on lifetime parole. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So it was reported that the police obtained this warrant, this warrant to search Latner's truck on the morning of the shooting after the neighbor. made her report and after the scent dog tracked back towards the house. So we mentioned both of those things.

Didn't make him look great. Latiner was questioned on the 14th. When he came to the station to pick up his truck, his interview lasted almost two hours. The police searched Latiner's cell phones and found texts indicating he was involved in drug dealing. But investigators ultimately concluded that his activities were not related to July's murder. So, you know, he was into a bunch of stuff that wasn't good, that was illegal, but they concluded that none of that stuff had anything to do with July's murder. Now, I'm sure he was still pretty

high on their list. Yeah. I'm sure they were going to keep an eye on, watch him for a little while. Officer Brandon Roy reviewed the cell phone data and found text between Terrell Latner and his ex Marcy Griffin. There were over a thousand messages between May and December of 2016, most of which were sent by Griffin. That's a lot of text messages. It is. And it was said that most of them were hostile and derogatory towards July. The following are some of these texts retrieved from a 222 court decision by the Michigan Court of Appeals. One said, so you bring our son to sleep in that bed, wear that hoe sleep. Really? You walked out on your family chasing a rat hoe with zero potential. You put this bitch in a car before your own flesh and blood. Now, obviously, they added out to

profanity when they do some of the court documents. And you and I don't often use some of the words that we'll use in this episode. But I think when you're reading a text like this, you have to read it out. sure to get the full effect because these text messages are so important to this case other texts showed that marcy knew personal information about july for example in one message she said that july got speeding tickets had a suspended license and no proof of insurance that's pretty personal additionally on january fourth 2017 marcy griffin confronted terrell at his car wash business Latner's nephew was there and recorded the incident. He said he did this because Marcy was so angry that he thought she was going to hurt

Terrell. At one point, Marcy said, you all remember this conversation. Bitch, I'm coming. I promise you on my daddy. I'm getting you. I'm going to hit you in your stomach. Fuck this bitch. Okay.

All right. People don't hear me say that out for it a lot. But again, I think it's important. I think it's important for the context. You know, because you can imagine just how angry these texts and, and this recording make Marcy Griffin sound. I mean, she is angry. She's angry that she's not with her child's dad any longer.

Or and or she's angry that he's with this new woman, July and that she's interacting with her kids. or, you know, whatever it is. One of July's family members told the police that Marcy had been stalking July for about two years. July's mom told WDIV4 that she suspected something was going on, but July didn't want her to worry. She said, I knew my daughter was not happy.

I know that. I'm a mother. And that's one thing I know for sure. Mothers know. They do. You know. We call mother's instinct. Yeah.

I mean, and I do too, to be a mother. honest with you. I know when my daughter's not happy. I know when something's going on with her. Normally it's when she says, uh, nothing's wrong. Yeah. That means something's wrong. But you know, you also have this side of it where your child doesn't want to tell you something because they don't want you to worry. You know, is it because they don't believe it's really as serious as it will turn out to be? Probably during the search in the 13th, a pair of work gloves was found in a marshy area on a brush-covered trail leading to a nearby LA Fitness. On the 16th of January, detectives reviewed surveillance footage from an LA Fitness near the condo.

The video showed an SUV, pull into the parking lot shortly before the shooting. A man got out and returned to the vehicle shortly after the shooting. So one officer attempted to retrace the man's steps from the gym to the crime scene, The walk took about seven minutes. The officer knew where the gloves were found and continued looking in this marshy area and ultimately found a nine millimeter Smith and Wesson handgun. Potentially the murder weapon. I'm sure they thought it probably was.

Meanwhile, Officer Brandon Roy got a search warrant for Marcy Griffin's phone, but the phone had no data from before January 13th, 2017, according to court documents. Now, you want to talk about suspicious. All of a sudden, prior to the murder, you have no data on your cell phone. Right. No text messages, no nothing. Sounds like a red flag. But her cell phone record showed that she received text from a 4-616 number the night before

the shooting and the morning of. Officer Roy got a search warrant for records belonging to this number, which was issued on January 27, 2017. The purpose of the warrant was to get data, such as pinging location information from the cell phone provider Metro PCS. And police found out that the phone didn't start pinging until February 4, 2017. The signal was detected in St. Clair Shores, Michigan, where a woman named Gloria Ray lived. Gloria Ray was the live-in girlfriend of a man named George Ryder. According to the McComb Daily.

Now, we said earlier that Marcy Griffin was in a relationship with George Ryder. There was a lot of conflicting information about this. So not really sure whether Marcy knew about Gloria or if Gloria knew about Marcy or any of that. An officer conducted surveillance and saw George Ryder leave the house. He followed him and was notified that the pinging data was following the vehicle. Ryder was stopped when he pulled into a car wash. The police blocked his car and ordered him to get out of the vehicle. According to the news outlet, voice of Detroit, he was handcuffed and the police confiscated his vehicle and three cell phones without a search warrant.

The police took two cell phones from his person. There was a third phone inside the vehicle. When George Ryder did not consent to this phone being seized, the police had the car impounded and then got a warrant to take the third phone. and search all three phones. Man, a lot of people in this story got a lot of cell phones. I feel like I'm under cell phone. Maybe. Maybe you need more.

I think so. But then you'd have to pay for more. I don't want to do that. I know you don't. Yes, I'll just stick with the one. George Ryder complained that him being handcuffed, put in the police cruiser, and not allowed to leave, constituted an arrest. He was uncuffed and left without his vehicle.

One witness to the incident even said, it sure looks like you're under arrest to me. The police claimed they were conducting a traffic stop, according to voice of Detroit. The police searched Ryder's phone records and learned that on the morning of the shooting, Ryder's phone made calls to a 24-year-old man named Eric Gibson four times

between 5 and 6 a.m. It's a lot of calls in one hour in the morning. Between 5 and 6 in the morning? Yeah. Ain't nobody calling me between 5 and 6 in the morning. If they do, it be the only one and call. It'd be the one and only call they're going to make you. You're not going to answer anyway, but if you do, you're not going to be happy about it.

And they're going to be blocked forever. So probably not too hard to figure out that they're putting this together. Does this have something to do with the murder of July? The timing is right, right? These phone calls between five and six, she's killed at like 7.30 a.m. Ryder texted Marcy Griffin. at 9.16 a.m. The following messages were retrieved from WDIV4.

Writer says, good morning, sunshine. Today is a beautiful day. Friday the 13th. Marcy writes back, L.O.L. writer says, I hope you understand. Marcy says everything about I understand. So are we thinking that's his way of saying, the job is done?

Yeah. Well, I think you could read into it that way, especially when you kind of already know what has transpired. But I think if you just read it on its own with no context, I don't know what you'd make about it. You know, it wouldn't be that it's about a murder, right,

if it was just read on its own. Cell phone data also showed that the day before the shooting, Ryder's phone was using sections of cell towers that included the crime scene and the LA fitness. In the evening, both his and Marcy Griffin, phone. We're using similar towers in sections in downtown Detroit. Later that night, Ryder and Eric Gibson's phones used similar towers suggesting they met in person. At 742,

on the morning of the shooting, Ryder's phone used a cell tower near Coolidge and I-696. It took about 12 minutes to drive from LA Fitness to this area based on the time of the shooting and how long it would take for the shooter to get back to the vehicle, police thought it was possible. Rider was at the gym during the shooting. So I've said it before, you know, the cell phone pinging information is fascinating to me. I know it's come out, I think lately that, you know, maybe it's not as exact as people once thought it was. Right.

But it's still a very interesting tool. And maybe technology has progressed that it's, that it's more precise now. I really don't know. Prosecutor said that the vehicle captured by the LA Fitness security camera was a dark colored Nissan Pathfinder. It turned out that writer's girlfriend, Gloria Ray, was renting a Nissan Pathfinder. Eric Gibson was pulled over on January 12, 2017, while driving this exact Nissan Pathfinder. So it's a lot of great information, right?

I don't think they've put it all together, but, some of the pieces seem like they're starting to fall into place. Right. It was also said that George Ryder had a photo of the license plate of the Nissan. So basically showing that he was aware of this vehicle, right? Why would he have this license plate photo if he didn't know anything about this vehicle? Well, yeah, he must have taken it. So he had to have been, you know, with the truck.

Now, Eric Gibson, it was said, had a flip pump. So the police couldn't get, you know, very much useful. data from it. Yeah. My father-in-law still carries a flip phone. Yeah. You don't see a lot of them these days, but he's old school. Yeah.

My mom still had her slide phone before she passed away. Mm-hmm. You know, the good old slide phone. You're like, wow. They even make those anymore? She just had it for such a long time. She just had it such a long time. I didn't want to give it up.

On February 23rd, 2017, Marcy Griffin, George Ryder, and Eric Gibson were charged with first-degree murder. Eric Gibson was also charged with felony firearm and receive and conceal firearms, according to WXYZ Detroit. It was reported that Gibson's DNA was found on the work gloves that were recovered near the crime scene. At that time, he was already being held in the Wayne County Jail on unrelated charges. So we always talk about, you know, not being too hard to find.

Right. Not too hard to find this guy. No. To arrest him because he's already in the county jail. They knew exactly where to go. The press was told that July's murder was believed to be a murder-for-hire situation with Marcy Griffin being the one who enlisted Ryder and Gibson in the murder. According to the Oakland press, Eric Gibson was never tied to Marcy Griffin, but he was linked

to George Ryder. Ryder's girlfriend, Gloria Ray, knew Eric Gibson because he was friends with her son. Gibson worked for a company associated with Ryder and was driving the Nissan Pathfinder which was a company vehicle. The two men were also captured together by security cameras, buying items from Home Depot before the shooting. Tying it all together. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting that, you know,

they can't tie Gibson to Griffin. And I get that. They may have had no conversations whatsoever. Marcy may have only talked to George and then George talked to Eric. It came out that George Ryder served time in federal prison for a drug conviction in the 1990s. He once had an ownership interest in the historic fine arts theater in Detroit. This theater is somewhat infamous for its connection to three unsolved murders.

That sounds like an interesting case to do on unsolved. Yeah, and we did, I thought we did an unsolved case in Detroit. I don't know if that's the same one or not. I can't recall. It also came out that George Ryder owned a pair of gloves, identical to the gloves. identical to the gloves found near the crime scene. So I think you would say for sure, it's not looking good for these guys.

Now, is there what you would call a smoking gun? I don't know. Is there a bombshell, that kind of lynchpin evidence, or is it just going to be a mountain of evidence that kind of is overwhelming? But, you know, let's go back to this fine arts theater. It first opened in 1914.

In 1978, a man named Joe Jr. Foster purchased the theater. The Detroit Free Press described Foster as a reputed drug dealer known as Dodo with significant real estate holdings. Dodo. It seems like a strange nickname. But if you're a big time drug dealer, you can be called whatever you want to be called. Oh, I was going to go down the path of where are you going to put your money? Real estate's not a bad thing, right? It's long-term investment. It's usually good for everybody. I assume it's good for drug dealers as well. Good way to launder that money. Joe Jr. Foster was fatally shot in front of his apartment building several blocks from the theater

on October 11th, 1997. This was several months after he was indicted for drug trafficking and food stamp fraud. On December 30th of that year, Foster's girlfriend and business associate Bernice Johnson was also killed. Both of their murders remain unsolved. So I know we haven't done that case yet. No. In July 1998, Foster's daughter sold the theater to a corporation called TGR Group, which was led by George Ryder. In May 2002, Ryder hired his girlfriend at that time, Valerie Atikian, to get financing for

renovations to the theater. In September 2003, Riders Group sold the theater to Brava Entertainment, which was owned by Aetikian and her partner, John Yusuf. Then in December 2003, Writers Corporation took out an almost $400,000 mortgage on the theater, despite the fact that he had already sold it. Yeah, that sounds like a little mortgage fraud going on there. Yeah. The Detroit Free Press reported that this led to fraud allegations.

The mortgage lender somehow didn't know about the sale, and it's unknown where the mortgage proceeds went. Writer returned to prison in June 2004 for violating the terms of his supervised release. He wasn't released until February 2007. On September 22nd, 2007, Valerie Atikian was killed inside the theater when she reportedly went to meet someone who expressed interest in renting the building. She was found dead inside one of the theater's restrooms. Detective spoke with the Detroit News and said that Atikian told friends she

suspected someone was trying to kill her. She was killed before she was supposed to undergo further questioning in the theater ownership case. Valerie Atikian's murder also remains unsolved. So those are the three unsolved murders. And we could do that case at some point in the future. The theater was only used sporadically after that. Well, there was three murders there.

So I don't know how many people are clamoring to, uh, to, to, uh, purchase it. To rent it. out, you know, for somebody's birthday or something like that. On January 2nd, 2016, Brava Entertainment sold the theater to TGR Investment Group for $267,000. So essentially, it was sold back to the corporation associated with George Ryder. Yeah.

At a reduced price. Yeah, they sold it to Bravo. Bravo sent it, sold it back to them. And then they turned around and sold it for $1.3 million. dollars the same month to a pharmacist named Haney Boutros. That is a heck of a profit. Yeah, it sounds like something's up. Yeah, obviously there's something going on here.

All of this shows that George Ryder was already known locally because of his involvement with the theater. It's important to note that Ryder has never been charged in relation to the unsolved murders. But I think as we were going through that, a lot of people would probably say who benefited from the murders. And it sounds like it was George Ryder. I mean, I'm not saying he was involved, but I'm sure people were making that connection or trying to make it. Yeah, you think about how he sold that place, made the money off of it because of maybe some

unfortunate events. Yeah, he sold it twice. Yeah. And made money the second time he made a boatload of money. Yeah. In March 2017, July's boyfriend, Terrell Latiner was charged with felon in possession of a weapon and possession of a gun with an obliterated serial number, he's not allowed to have a weapon because of his prior drug conviction. So we're going back to that, right? I said, what was he doing out? Right. Well, he was charged. He pleaded the fifth when called to answer questions at a pretrial hearing for the murder case. On June 28th, 2018, a judge conceded that the trial for the three defendants would likely be put. And then, you know, postponed when George Ryder's attorney withdrew from the case.

Writers' new attorney told the judge he would be ready to argue a previously filed motion to throw out cell phone evidence. Ryder argued that his phone was illegally confiscated based on a Supreme Court ruling in Carpenter versus the United States that requires a search warrant to view phone information. And, you know, we kind of said that, right? The cell phones, there was no warrant. you knew that was going to come back around once this thing got to trial. But after a number of delays, the trial started in May 2019.

All three defendants were tried together. Before trial, the prosecutors argued that the cases against Marcy Griffin and George Ryder were circumstantial based on text messages and mobile phone proximity. At trial, the prosecution argued that Marcy Griffin hired Eric Gibson to kill, July Johnson, with George Ryder acting as a middleman. According to prosecutors, Ryder drove Gibson to July's neighborhood and parked at the LA fitness. Gibson took a nature trail to the condos. As July left the condo, he shot her seven times, then tossed the 9mm handgun along the trail and returned to the vehicle. WDIV4 reported

that prosecutor Eric Smith told the court, this entire murder, came. about because of one woman's enraged jealousy. They are correct. Well, and you and I talk about motive a lot. Jealousy is up there. Pretty high. Pretty high. Yeah.

You know, greed, jealousy. We see it time and time again. You could hear the jealousy in her text messages. And that's why I think they were so important that I wanted to read them, you know, as they were written, even with the language. Now there was an issue at trial, and that was a potential mix up of DNA samples by the Michigan State Police forensic scientists. The Oakland Press reported that forensic scientist Jennifer Jones testified that the results of DNA testing on two handguns led her to believe a mistake occurred on the lab side. That is never good.

No, you don't want to hear that. when, you know, a state forensics person has to come out and say, we think there was a mix-up because you know what it leads to. The defense is going to say, well, if that got mixed up, how can we trust any testing, right? That was done by your group, this lab, you know, whoever it was. Because of the possible mix-up, the MSP crime lab recollected and re-examined samples. They got different results when they tested the guns a second time. The defense tried to shift blame away from the three defendants by pointing out that the first test results pointed to Terrell Latner's involvement in the murder rather than Eric Gibson.

The police found that 9mm Smith & Wesson on the trail. We talked about that between the condo and the gym. They found a 9mm Ruger in Latner's vehicle. Initially, testing showed that Latiner's DNA. was found on the trigger and slide of the Smith and Wesson with no DNA from Eric Gibson. But the gun's grip showed Eric Gibson's DNA on it with no DNA from Terrell Latner. And to me, that would be virtually impossible. Yeah.

Sounds like the lab really messed up here. Yeah. I mean, I think they admitted that they did. But if you just think about holding a gun. And obviously they said that DNA was on the slide, right? So you pull the slide back to rack the gun to chamber around. That's really hard to do if you're not holding the grip of that gun. So whoever did that and left that DNA had to have been holding the grip at the same

time in my way of thinking. Jennifer Jones testified that these results are inconsistent because the two spots where DNA was collected were so close together. They should have much different results, and that led her to think an error had occurred. Testing on the Ruger conflicted with the police's theory in the case. The first testing of the Ruger showed Gibson's DNA on the grip and handle, and none of Torell Latner's DNA. According to the Warren police, Jones wrote in her report that these results were inconsistent with the case facts as described by the agent. This gun was found in Latner's vehicle.

So it was more likely to have his DNA on it. Jones talked to her superiors and they decided that it would be best to retest the guns. And it was during this further testing that Gibson's DNA was found on both locations of the Smith and Wesson. And Terrell's DNA was not found on the gun at all. His DNA was found on the Ruger and Gibson's was not. And that would make sense. That makes a lot more sense than the other way around. It does.

gives some clarity. Jones denied allegations from a defense attorney that she was pressured to get results that favored the police. She said they weren't aware of the issue until after she issued her report in June 2017. But, you know, like I said, the defense is going to try to hammer that. Of course they will. It's a great opportunity for them. Yeah.

They would be derelict in their duty if they didn't try to, you know, poke serious holes in that. Jones also testified that DNA analysis found Gibson's DNA inside two gloves found in the woods near the crime scene. So in total, the trial featured almost 300 exhibits and over 15 witnesses. The jury deliberated over two days after closing arguments on June 5th, 2019. On June 7th, Marcy Griffin, George Ryder, and Eric Gibson were convicted of first-degree murder in the death of July Johnson, Gibson was also convicted of possession of a firearm

during the commission of a felony. So, you know, I think it's pretty obvious to me, Gibbs, that when it came down to the jury, they must have believed the retesting of the DNA. They must have

believed in it. They had to. Or else they would have had reasonable doubt. But to me, it not only fits the narrative it makes sense. Again, I can't make sense of one person's DNA on the handle and the other person's DNA on maybe the trigger and the slide. Yeah, it doesn't make any sense.

It doesn't. Now, is it possible that you hold the gun by the handle and I rack it and I pull the trigger? Yeah. I guess theoretically it could happen. It just doesn't make any sense that somebody would do it that way. You know, one thing that I did find. kind of vexing is these work gloves right the work gloves had gibson's DNA in it he dumped them in the woods what were the work gloves for obviously he wasn't wearing them when he used the gun right

because if he had well and i'm thinking work gloves might be a little tough to shoot in you know the fingers are often kind of big yeah might not fit through the trigger guard all that well i don't know what type of work gloves these were, but... Removed them and... It just seems strange to have gloves, but not gloves that you use to make sure you didn't leave prints on the murder weapon. The news outlet, voice of Detroit spoke with George Ryder on June 12th in a call from the McComb County Jail.

He told the outlet, neither I nor Eric Gibson ever knew Marcy Griffin. He also said that the judge should never have allowed. text messages from an unknown person sent to Griffin into testimony. When they seized Marcy Griffin's phone, the phone number I had was in her phone, but I did not have possession of that phone at the time of those messages. Police seized that phone from me later when they arrested me on February 4th in Roseville. So he's saying, yes, my number was in her phone, but I didn't have my phone at the time that those messages were sent. Again, buy it, don't buy it.

I don't know. Maybe I'm getting too jaded that I just don't hardly believe anyone anymore. I have a hard time believing it. I do too. On July 31st, 2019, all three defendants were sentenced to life without the possibility of parole. July's family made victim impact statements at the sentencing, as reported by Fox 2 Detroit. Kera Johnson, July's daughter said, I don't know what my mama did to you. I really don't, but I wouldn't wish that on nobody. Literally

nobody. July's great aunt, Pamela Johnson, said, what was so much hatred for? How can you, as a human being, have so much hatred in you? To sit with no remorse, but you have to live with what you did. You know your role, your part in this, and you have to live with it every day. And to me, you know, I think that's what the family hopes that these people have to do. Yes. They have to live with it. It's going to torment them. That probably makes them feel better knowing that it's going to eat them up inside.

Yeah, that they're going to have to sit there and dwell on it for a long time. But I don't know that all of these people do. I really don't. I'm sure there are a lot of people who feel bad and have a lot of remorse about what they did. and it kind of does eat them up and they think about it all the time. I also think there's a ton of people who couldn't give a rat's ass. Same here. I agree with you.

That it doesn't bother them one bit. And that's a scary thought. They're more pissed that they got caught and have to do some time. And they still don't care about the person's life that they ended or the family or, you know, anybody. They don't until it's time to come for parole. Then they act like they do care. Oh, yeah. Then they're remorse.

Eric Gibson made a statement as well. He said, my condolences to the family. for their loss. I hope they find the person who committed this heinous crime. Michigan State police and warned police illegally obtained my DNA and forced evidence against me to make it look like I committed this crime. And again, I don't know what some of these people are going to say. I mean, how does it help them to say, you know, I'm sorry. Yeah, I did it after the fact. They've already been convicted. Right. Why not go ahead and plan. it out there that, you know, I was framed, the evidence was doctor, this, that. What are they going to get

out of it by admitting to it at this point? They were going to admit to it. They should have done it up front and maybe got a lesser sentence. Yeah, I got some credit for it. On November 21st, 2019, Terrell Latner was sentenced to three years in prison after pleading guilty to being a felon in possession of a firearm in June. So he ended up getting three years. And yeah, I get it. He didn't have a role in the murder. That's what it seems like. Right.

But he still had a lot of stuff going on. Yeah, he was doing a lot of illegal activity while on parole. And what they got him for was the illegal firearm. I'm sure they couldn't prove some of the other stuff. You know, probably not for lack of trying. I can imagine questions around, hey, where'd you get this half a million dollars in cash? Absolutely. Where's that coming from?

But the firearm with the serial number scratched off, that's hard to get to get around. While George Ryder was in jail awaiting trial and during his trial, it was alleged that he conspired with his brother, Lawrence, and a man named Robert Reed White to conduct an arson insurance scam to collect over $100,000 on a house. And this guy just never stopped. He's into a lot of fraudulent activity. And that's just what we know about. You know, what else did he do over the years to try to try to get money?

It's just so weird to think that you're in jail, awaiting your trial and even during your trial, still plotting how to scam money. Yeah. Well, I, and maybe he thought, well, I'm going to need that. I'm going to need to buy my ramen, my, my honey buns. I'm going to need a commissary bankroll. Yeah, you will. And this is the way we're going to get it.

We're going to do an insurance scam. According to the McComb Daily, a fellow jail inmate who was working with federal authorities was also involved. They were all indicted in August 2019, but writer's charges were dropped after he was convicted of murder. We had that in our Patreon case as well. We did. You know, once you get that murder conviction, I think the choice is made in a lot of situations, not to move forward with some of the lesser charges. Yeah, I mean, one, it's costly to the city county. Yeah, taxpayers ultimately.

But you also have to look at, you know, the impact to the victims, if they're victims involved. Sure. Yet another interesting detail in this case is that on February 16th, 2022, prosecutor Eric Smith was sentenced to 21 months in federal prison after pleading guilty to obstruction of justice. From 2012 to 2019, Smith took almost 75. thousand dollars from his campaign fund in a kickback scheme he also tried to get a friend and two assistant prosecutors to make false statements he was ordered to pay a twenty thousand dollar fine undergo

eighteen months supervision upon release and forfeit the money he received from his scheme there's a lot of taintant people that's i was going to say that you know the other thing that jumps out at me about this case is like everybody's going to to jail or prison for something even some of the people who we thought were on the side of the law. Yeah. The prosecutor's going to jail. On August 18th, 2002, the Michigan Court of Appeals made their decision in the three defendants consolidated appeals. They affirmed Griffin and Gibson's convictions, but remanded part of Reiter's conviction for further proceedings. The court ruled that Ryder's attorney was ineffective because she failed to object to the warrantless seizure of his cell phone in February

2017. You just knew that that was going to come back at some point and it was almost strange that it didn't come up in the trial. It was like this huge part of the trial. And here you have the appeals court saying it should have been. Yeah. And the attorney did a bad job. Really bad job. The court remanded the case back to the trial judge for an evidentiary hearing to determine if the confiscation of the phone met expectations to Riders' Fourth Amendment rights, whether this evidence should have been excluded and whether writer would have been convicted without that evidence.

And to me, that's a big part. Because, you know, you've seen in cases where technically law enforcement did something they shouldn't have done. But when it comes to the appeals court, they've made the decision that, okay, yeah, we acknowledge that, but it would not have affected the outcome

of the trial. The outcome still would have been the same regardless. So no new trial, no overturn, nothing like that. The appeals judges determined that the warrant, which was approved a week before February 4th, 2017, was limited to the phone records of one phone, not the seizure of the phone. Officers took three phones from Ryder. According to the McComb Daily, the court wrote, reading the warrant in a common sense and realistic manner, reveals that it only authorized the procurement of data and records from Metro PCS. It didn't address the physical search or seizure of any phone. For some reason, the parties in the trial court took the incorrect view that the warrant

not only authorized the recovery of the phone's location data, but also authorized the phone's physical seizure. On February 4th, 2022, the evidentiary hearing was held to detourable. determine if George Ryder would have been acquitted if evidence from the improperly C cell phone was excluded from the trial, but it would be a number of months before the judge made his decision. In March of this year, Judge Joseph Toya ruled that the seizure of Writers' three cell phones was reasonable due to exigent circumstances because the devices could have been destroyed if they were not confiscated. It seems likely that in the coming

years, we'll see further appeals from these defendants. I think especially, you know, around this cell phone stuff, the seizure of cell phones. They're going to try to get it kicked out. My assumption is George Ryder probably thought he had a really good shot about these cell phones. Now, what the judge said is kind of interesting, right? If they had not collected them, If they had not taken them, they could have, and I would say would have been destroyed and, you know, valuable data laws. Yeah. Before the police could ever get their hands on them.

Now, does that mean it was right? I don't know. The judge is making this ruling. So, but what did we talk about last week? Wasn't it the word reasonable? It was. And now here it is again, the judge saying it was reasonable. And that is a word that crops up in.

so many true crime cases. And, you know, to me, it's very kind of ambiguous. There's a lot of gray area in the word reasonable. Yeah, I think so too. You know, how you interpret that. Yeah, because I think like I said last week, what's reasonable to you might not be reasonable to me. It might not be reasonable to my wife. Right. So I guess it only matters whether it's reasonable to the person that is ultimately making the decision. Good point. So, you got the jury regarding reasonable doubt. You got the judge in this case who's saying, yeah, I think it was reasonable. But as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, you know, I want to go back to July Johnson. Obviously, she's the victim in this case. Her life was ended far too soon. And because of what?

Jealousy on the part of, you know, Marcy Griffin. She was jealous that July was. was with her ex-husband, was with her kids, I guess. But as the jury concluded, Marcy Griffin was the organizer of the plot to kill July. And although she didn't pull the trigger, she was just as responsible as her accomplices. And I would say even more responsible. Yeah, I agree with you. I don't know if that's true or not. But kind of in my mind, I always think if the organizer or the instigator doesn't put

it in motion, then it never happens. Right. So if you're talking about a murder for higher plot, if there's not somebody that is asking for somebody else to kill a person, that person's not going to kill them. No. It's only because they're saying, I will give you X amount of money or I'll do this for you if you do this for me. So yes, you didn't pull the trigger.

You didn't shoot the gun that killed the person. but being the mastermind behind the whole thing is really what made it happen. Sure. Yeah. Because without you, it never would have. July Johnson is living today. Yeah. That's my thought.

And then I think you have to talk about Terrell Latner a little bit. You know, like we said, obviously he was into some stuff. To what extent, I don't know. It doesn't sound like a lot of it was proven in court other than the fact that he had this, firearm illegally and he got jail time for that. I don't feel bad about that, but I do feel bad that, you know, he was kind of dragged through the mud,

thought to have killed his girlfriend. Right. And he lost her. So there is loss there even though, he might not have been doing, you know, all the right things. But in a certain sense, he's still a victim in this case.

he lost someone sure he did yeah and obviously as well you know her family and friends and and all of that that spider web that we always talk about that it just kind of shoots out yeah and touches so many different people impactful yeah the other thing is that you know we always say okay senseless murder is there a murder that's not senseless i don't know what one would be right but the reasoning behind this one jealousy why kill somebody over being jealous your ex didn't want you anyway if he did he'd be with you you were married for 17 years it ended and yeah i just i thought it was um people have a hard time letting go yeah i guess so i was looking for the right word i can't find it but i just i can't

imagine killing anyone for any reason unless it was self-protection i can't imagine that if somebody was trying to hurt me or my family but because you're jealous of someone you're going to have them murdered. And what goes on in your brain when you're trying to formulate that and then ultimately making that decision? I think she was territorial with her husband. Her ex-husband. All right.

That's it for our episode on Marcy Griffin. We've got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Yeah, let's hear them. Hey, Mike and Gibby. This is Angel from Virginia. I just wanted to call in and say, hey again. I want to let them know that you all really help me.

through my workday. I put you all in and I work on reports and stuff like that. Oh, by the way, I'm law enforcement and I'm actually a special investigator at work some of the heinous crimes you all talk about. So it's, I mean, it's kind of odd. I'm sure you all find it fascinating that I sit there and I'm working on typing up my reports and kind of like debriefing in a way if I'll listen to you all talk about other crimes. So, you know, I'm out here trying to fight the good fight and I'm trying to make sure that I'm not one of the officers that you all talk about that didn't do the job right. So, guys, thanks for everything that you all do. Thanks for giving me some peace in the chaotic world that I live in.

Just, you know, keep y'all's time picking, man. Work. Well, we appreciate that message. Yeah, we do. Appreciate you listening. Also, appreciate your service. You know, Gibbs, we've always tried to back law and Now, obviously there are cases where they make mistakes.

Sure. And we have to point those out. And there's no way around it. But I do think it's a very important job. And like she said, she's out there fighting a good fight and trying to do the right thing. So keep fighting that fight. Hey, guys.

It's Jamie from Virginia. Once again, calling because I have now caught up to where you are. I started binging May 31st of last year. and I'm finally through 300 and however many episodes you have. And now I've never been a fan of Unsolved Crime, but I've ventured over there. And let me just say this. I love T-Cat, but T-Cat Unsolved, I love more.

And the very first episode and even the second episode are wonderful. So if you air this on T-Cat, you might have more listeners listen to Unolved because I myself never liked Unolved. but you guys make it as great as it can be. So that's all. I hope you guys are doing well and stay safe and keep your own ton of chicken. Well, definitely appreciate that voicemail. You know, it means a lot.

It does. There's no doubt more people listen to TCAT than TCAT Unsolved for that very reason. There have been people for years call in or message and say, I just can't do the unsolved. Now, me personally, I enjoy the unsolved because you get to digest the facts, but also, try to come to some of your own conclusions that you really don't do that much in the TCAT because it's finalized. It's been decided. There's not as much gray area to kind of wade through. But yeah, appreciate it. The other interesting thing about TCAT unsolved is some of them already solved. Some have been solved. That's true. You know, since we've recorded them and

she's going to stumble across us and see that. Yeah, actually quite a few of them have been. been solved, which is awesome. We hope they're all solved. Hey, Mike and Gibby. My name's Kingman. I've been listening to your show for a while. I think I've listened to actually all of TCATs, all the T-Cat and solved because I worked the graveyard shift in a mill, and I've got to have something to keep me busy all night long every night. Anyway, I was just listening to your podcast about Michael Sanders. I always look up to people that you guys talk about, and I try to get an image in my head of what they might look like. And so I looked up Carmen Fisher, also the attorney that was, you know, having inappropriate relations with him.

And it turns out that she actually ended up marrying this guy, Garcia, who's like the head of the Mexican, new Mexican mafia, not to be confused with the Mexican mafia, ended up marrying this guy and helping him run the gang from behind bars. And she ended up getting sentenced to three years in prison just recently. I think she's out. I don't think she's a lawyer anymore, but she still shows up when you search her and maybe her name is still on the bar list, or at least on the internet.

She can't be a lawyer anymore, though after serving three years in prison, or maybe can she, I don't know. I don't know what the laws are in New Mexico, man. Anyway, you guys keep it safe, keep your own time taken. Situational awareness is key. You know, don't let anybody sneak up on you.

All right. See you. it was that the kegman i don't know if he said kegman kingman or caveman yeah i all very cool but the cave man yeah the kegman is actually uh yeah that's what your nickname was in in college i know mine was the keg stand man the cake stand man that's right so he kind of sounded like us there for a minute saying i don't know what the law is in yeah in new mex car we never do either but uh that was interesting because i didn't see that in the research because i didn't go down the rabbit hole of where she was now.

But I wish I had because I would have included that in the episode. All right, buddy. We had no mailbag this week. So that is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and give me, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.