True Crime All The Time - Margo Freshwater

Episode Date: April 12, 2021

Margo Freshwater grew up in Columbus, Ohio. In 1966, she made the decision to head to Memphis, Tennessee to try to get her boyfriend out of jail. She ended up having a relationship with the attorney, Glen Nash, who was supposed to help her boyfriend. Glen Nash had some severe mental health issues and began having delusions. Margo was with Glen when he murdered a number of people, and that fact got her convicted and a 99-year sentence.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the fascinating case of Margo Freshwater. Not long into her sentence, Margo escaped from a Tennessee women's prison and headed back home to Ohio. Over the next 32 years, she married multiple times, had children, and became a grandmother. But, the police eventually caught up with her and she was forced back to Tennessee. What would happy to this woman who had been a model citizen for 32 years?You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 228 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gippie, what is going on? Hey man, how are you doing? I'm doing great. Yeah. I'm loving this weather. Good. Got my shorts on. You know me. I like to wear shorts and flip flops. That's kind of my thing. It is. T-shirts. Yeah. I'm seeing a lot of people out walking, walking their dogs. People are happy. Yeah. That this weather is turning. It's nice to get outside. It is. It is. I think it lifts everybody's spirits. My wife's been doing a lot of kind of power walks on her lunch. And I can tell. It's definitely lifting her spirits. It's a good mood enhancer. Yeah. Yeah. No doubt about it. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Sarah Allen. Hey, Sarah. Ellery. What's going on, Ellery? Erica Gallagher. Hey, Gallagher. Jasmine Kelly. Hey, Jasmine. Tiffany. That's happening, Tiffany. Karina Riley. Hey, Karina. Isabella Medina. Hey, Madina.

Funky Cold. Yeah. Alan Espinoza. Hey, Espinosa. Ashley Turner. Hi, Ashley. Martin Newman jumped out at our highest level. What's going on?

Newman. Taylor Ellison. Hey, Taylor. Dave Duffy jumped out higher than our highest level. What's going on, Duffy? Caitlin Dickert. Hey, appreciate that, Caitlin. Teresa Ballou.

Hey, Teresa. Mara Pierce. Hey, Mara. Amanda Nickerson jumped out of our highest level. Nickerson in the house. We had Cat Q. Hey, Cat Q. Lisa Parra Parks.

What's up, Parra Parks? Courtney Dieden jumped out at our highest level. Hey, Courtney. Kathleen Barry. Hey, Kathleen. Kim. What's up, Kim? Jonathan Platt jumped out at our highest level.

Well, thank you, Platt. And last but not least, Todd Minty. Hey, Minty. Minty Fresh. And then if we go back into the Vault Gibbs, this week, we selected Badger Ferret. What's up, Ferrette? Longtime supporter. You know, the new support to continued support, it's all a moment.

amazing. It really is. We really appreciate it. We had some great PayPal donations as well from Jessica Shelton. Hey, Jessica. Michelle Burkis. I'm Michelle. Michelle Meese. What's up, M.M. And Belinda Riva Mante. Riva Monte. Fun to say. It is fun to say. Gibbs, right now on true crime all the time on salt. We have an episode out on four-year-old Gregory Veilman. And this was a subject of a really good documentary on Netflix. was, yeah. Who killed Little Gregory. And it's a case from France.

We, we. So, you know, there's a lot of pronunciations to go along. We? We? Yeah. I will say, this is a very tough case. I mean, naturally, because you're talking about the murder of a four-year-old child. Right.

But also with what the family had to deal with and some of the things that have come out over the and, you know, where the leads have kind of pointed to without giving anything away. Yeah. It's a very interesting case. So make sure you check that out. Looks like we're going to CrimeCon, Gibbs, as it stands right now. A bag still packed from 2020. Yeah, you just left it packed.

I did. I know if I can fit into any of it. And just bought new clothes. I just left the same clothes there, man. I'm just hoping I can fit into them by that. So unless something changes between now and then, Gibbs and I will be at CrimeCon. so anybody that's going, we can't wait to see you. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time?

I'm ready. We're talking about Margo Freshwater, who as a team made some questionable choices, as many young people do. You and I talk about it, you know, virtually all the time. How many things did we do as teens where we think, hmm, yeah, that should have landed us in jail? or how do we survive that. But Margot's mistakes caused her to be charged with murder. And after her accomplice was declared unfit to stand trial, Margo was sentenced to 99 years in prison.

But she escaped and went into hiding for 32 years until she was captured again. So, you know, this is a story about her actions and things that led up to her being convicted of murder. but then you've got 32 years of a woman who essentially creates one, if not multiple, brand new lives and leads them to the fullest. Her new family had no idea who she really was. And I said she led it to the fullest. Margo never committed a single crime that I know of after she escaped from prison. And she went on to become a loving wife and grandmother.

So I think there will be questions to be asked, right? Was Margo a victim of her circumstances or a willing accomplice who participated in a crime spree that resulted in the deaths of three innocent people? We had a similar question, right, on last week's true crime all the time. We sure did. Margo Freshwater had a relatively normal childhood. She and her brother Tommy lived in Worthington, a working class neighborhood of Columbus, Ohio. Not very far from us at all. No.

Can be there in very short time. Or about an hour. Or that too. I always like it when you, I thought you were going to give pretty much an exact time, but you just went with short time. I did. Margot's brother, Tommy, told the Nashville scene that growing up, he and Margo were best friends. she was his protector. Tommy and Margo enjoyed playing kickball and building forts together.

You remember kickballs? That's still a thing? It is, man. I loved kickball. There's some adult kickball leagues. Oh, I'm in. Yeah. Actually not.

I'll probably pull a hammy at my age. Yeah. But as a 16, 17 year old, I was damn good at kickball. It was a lot of fun. I liked it a lot, man. Now, in the winter, they'd flood the street and kind of make their own little ice ring, play a little ice hockey or just skate around. I never did that.

No, I've actually never heard of anybody flooding a street. I don't think my neighbors would take kindly to it. Yeah. If I tried to do that. It would not be good. I also read that she played football and was on the track and swim teams in high school. And that one really surprised me. Not that she played football because I think there have been a lot of girls over the years

that have played football to, some pretty high level. Right. But you know, Worthington is kind of thought of as a, what I understand, a pretty high level football school. Yeah.

Now maybe it was different in the 60s. I don't know. Yeah, they used to have a, you know, as far as I remember, a pretty strong team. Yeah.

Like state level type teams, I think, in a lot of years. But so for her to make that team, it got me kind of thinking, wow, she must have really had some high level. athletic ability. Margo also worked as a babysitter. And I think Gibbs, although the siblings were

happy, a lot of that they did on their own because they did not live in a stable household. Their mother was an alcoholic and their father abandoned the family when they were both young. And Margot was only a year older than Tommy. But she helped raise him. And it might have been part of that reason why Margo never finished high school. She ended up dropping out, but she also ran away a couple of times, once in 1964 and again in 1966. And she was gone long enough that her family reported her missing. So this wasn't a one day, you know, hey, I came back in 12 hours just to show you how unhappy I am type of deal. In 1966, Margo became pregnant. The father of the baby wasn't interested in helping her raise their child. And you know Gibbs, probably better than most,

the 60s were a much different time. It was amazing time, man. I was a little infant in 66. You were just hitting your mid 30s. Yeah. And in the 60s. But it was, especially for, unwed mothers. And, you know, they were viewed in a much different light and a much more negative light than what women are viewed today. Oh, for sure. Yeah. You know, a woman who chooses to have a child without a father or without being married,

it was not going to be publicly shamed in the town square. But in the 50s and 60s, I don't know, maybe that might have happened. There was a lot of rumorville back then. Yeah. And I think there's, you know, just negative, looked down. upon that type of thing. Margo met her future boyfriend, Alfred Schlereth in Columbus in July of 1966. She was seven months pregnant at the time. Alfred had abandoned his own wife in California. He helped Margo get an apartment and he was a gambler. That's how he made his money.

Doing some alley craps. I don't know. Shooting craps, maybe hitting the playing the pony. maybe high stakes poker game, maybe a rounder situation. I don't know. Maybe he's like the Cincinnati kid. Maybe. I always wanted to be one of those guys in rounders. Did you? Yeah.

But I'm too risk adverse. I'm not as risk adverse as you are, meaning I'm okay opening my wallet to purchase things, but I'm not willing to gamble large sums of money. I'm just not. I'll gamble with your money anytime. Well, sure you would. Yeah.

Sure you would. And have. And have. and have and I didn't know until, you know, the book he came looking for me. And I was like, I never replaced any bed. He's big Mike, not me. Go after him. After Margo gave birth, Alfred encouraged her to give the baby up for adoption so that if something happened to him, she could get married pretty easily. So this guy was helping her, right, find a place to live. Yeah. Helping to provide for her. But he was not really stable. He wasn't what you would call.

call a supportive boyfriend. He lost a bunch of money gambling, which a lot of gamblers do. Kind of goes with the job. Well, it's not a sure thing. And that's why they call it a gamble. Right. Exactly. But because of that, he began stealing to earn money and eventually got arrested in Tennessee. So one day, Margo told her brother Tommy that she was going to Memphis to help get Alfred out of jail. Now, he didn't think that she'd be gone. long. But it turned out to be the last time he saw his sister for over 30 years. That's a long time. Imagine that you have a very close sibling, which you do. Yep. You have a couple. And they say, you know what, Mike? I got to run down to Memphis for a day or two. I'll be back. Right. You don't

see him for 30 plus years. No calls. No, hey, I'm doing good. No nothing. I'd be like, about bleeping time. You would not, and I know it. No. Margot took a 15-hour bus ride to Tennessee to help Alfred. He was in the Shelby County Jail on armed robbery. While she was in Memphis, Margo began a relationship with her boyfriend's attorney, a guy by the name of Glenn Nash.

And according to Alfred, Glenn and Margo originally planned to smuggle guns into the court room to free him. That's that he says that was their original plan. Well, that's a heck of a plan. Well, and if that's your starting point, then, uh, yeah, you got nowhere to go, but, uh, up from there, I think. But instead of doing that, they must have thought better of it. They ended up having an affair. Glenn was 38 years old, 20 years older than Margo. He was recently divorced. He was an alcoholic. and he struggled with severe mental illness. But he was an attorney. He was.

Yeah. He was, which just goes to show you, right? And we know this and everybody listening knows this. Mental illness can affect anyone. Oh, absolutely. All types of different ages, ethnicities, walks of life, level of education. It doesn't really live by any kind of.

border like that. No. Right? It's a non-discriminatory disease, as are most of them. Unsolved mysteries described Glenn Nash as a hard drinking lawyer. And we already mentioned that he was thinking about smuggling guns into the courtroom. So, you know, maybe the guy wasn't on the up and up. He was being investigated by the Memphis Bar Association for misconduct. He also had to criminal history, which I found interesting. Yeah. How do you get one of those and still practice law?

Yeah. Maybe times were different back then. I don't know. I always thought that it was pretty tough to get your license or virtually impossible if you had a pretty good criminal record. Makes me think about that movie with Matt Damon. That's exactly what I was thinking about. What's that? Mickey Rourke played that.

Rainmaker? Yeah. Is that the right one? Sure it is. Yeah. Let's go with that. Yeah. Mickey,

not Mickey, Mickey, Rick. He played, I can't remember the guy's name, but he had like a weird name, but he was, he played the,

like the attorney that they were working for. Kind of shady attorney. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Grisham novel. Yeah. But that's exactly what popped into my head, too,

because I think that's the reason why those guys were having to do certain things, right? It's because Mickey Rourke had a criminal record or something, and he was, he couldn't do. Somebody had a criminal record. Something there that kept them from, yeah.

Maybe it was Danny DeVito, kept him from being an attorney. I can't remember. Glenn and his wife, Jazella, met in Germany while he was in the army. They married in 1950 and moved to Tennessee. Nash got his law degree in Memphis.

Then after his father died in 1961, apparently people said his entire personality changed. In January of 66, he was arrested with nine other men for a robbery of $100,000 worth of money orders. But he was found innocent. In June of that year, he was accused of stealing $3,000 bonds, but was released for lack of evidence. In November, he was fined $50 for contempt of court for failing to show up to represent a client. So, again, I don't know. know what the extent of his criminal record was.

Maybe it wasn't to the point where it affected his law license. Now, if he would have been convicted of any of these things that we talked about, that definitely would have been. I think it's hard to practice law if you're a felon. Yeah. Well, and especially when you're convicted of a crime that has to do with the theft of money, right? The fiduciary responsibility, you can't be a lawyer.

No. At that point. During their marriage, Gisela said that he often disappeared on the weekends. She had no idea where he went and eventually they, you know, couldn't reconcile their differences and got divorced. By the end of 1966. So it seems like,

you know, within the matter of about five years or so, after his father dying, he really spiraled downhill. because Glenn started having delusions. He believed that the bar was conspiring against him. And maybe they were. You know,

if some of the things that were said about him are true, it could have very well been a fact that they were trying to get him to sparred or working behind the scenes to see what they could do. He's not good for our profession, guys. We've got to get him out of here. Yeah. Yeah. Now, his alcoholism did not help with these delusions.

And then you had Margo, who came to his office to ask for help in getting her boyfriend out of jail. She had no money to pay him. She didn't even have money for a place to stay while she was in Memphis. You know, she got the bus ride down there and it was like, okay, what do I do now? Yeah. I know I need to get Alfred out of jail. but I don't have anything to my name. How am I going to do that?

So Glenn agreed to work Alfred's case pro bono, and on top of that, he paid for Margo to stay at a boarding house. Margo wrote a letter to her mother, and in it she said she was working as a secretary for a Memphis attorney and was planning on coming home for Christmas. And it was around that time that she and Glenn began their relationship, but he's having these delusions. Gibbs, right, the bars coming after him.

Unfortunately, what Margo didn't realize was that she was getting involved with a killer. Glenn was losing his sense of reality. The LA Times reported that his own attorney later described him as, quote, crazy as hell. That's one description that maybe you don't want. I think I can definitively say, you don't want your attorney describing you. you as crazy as hell unless your end goal is what? Well, if you want to go after an insanity defense. Yeah, exactly.

Then you're okay with it because it's strategory at that point. It is. On December 6th, 1966, Glenn asked Margot to go with him to a liquor store. He told her a landlady at the boarding house that he was taking her out bowling. Margo reportedly didn't want to go, but she had. agreed. Around 8 p.m. They arrived at Square D liquor store. Glenn made Margo stay up front at the cash register while he took the clerk to the back room. And a customer actually entered the store. Gibbs and Margo rang him up as if she worked there while she was waiting for Glenn. Glenn tied up

the clerk, a man named Hillman Robbins Sr. And he began questioning him. He accused him of being an agent. of the Memphis Bar. So I think this speaks directly to his delusion. Sure, it does. That he was having. After questioning this guy, Glenn shot him in the head five times. The couple stole $616 from the register and escaped in their car. Witnesses saw Margo and Glenn flee the liquor store in a white Ford Fairlane.

At 847 p.m., a customer came in. and found Hillman dying in the back of the store. Hillman Robert Sr., he was only in his 30s, had a wife and two children. He was the father of Hillman Robbins Jr., a one-time amateur golf champion. And I always think about this Gibbs and these types of cases, right? Somebody comes to work, something that they've done, you know, how many different times in their life, expecting it to be a normal day. a normal shift.

And then all of a sudden, it turns out that they're in the wrong place at the wrong time. Yeah. And they meet the wrong person. The wrong person. Yeah. Nightmare. This was a nightmare.

Yeah, for everyone. And I mean everyone, right? Obviously, Robert Hillman Sr., his family, but it's going to turn out to be a nightmare for Glenn and especially Margo as well. On December 18th, witnesses saw Margo and Glenn leaving a Florida mini market.

Esther Boyer, the night manager, was dead inside the store. She'd been shot in the neck and apparently Gibbs a couple driving past the store heard Esther scream. They saw her running and then they heard a gunshot. Inside the store, they saw a man and a woman filling up a grocery cart. and Glenn Nash's fingerprints were later found on the cart. So that's good. He was in the system from his previous encounters. Encounters.

With the law. But police really weren't able to connect the murders until three days later when they found Glenn's car abandoned on a highway in Oakland, Florida. Inside the trunk, they found rope. And they found some bullets. And eventually these bullets were matched. ballistically to the liquor store murder. They put out an APB after they learned the car was registered to Glenn Nash.

And on December 19th, an officer stopped Glenn for questioning. But the witnesses didn't recognize him as the man they saw in the mini market. So police had to let him go. At 10.30 p.m. on Christmas Day, Glenn and Margo were driving when they ran out of gas in front of home of a man named M.M. Jennings. They were now in Mississippi. They knocked on the door, and Margot asked if she could use the phone. Margo called someone to check into getting some gas, but the couple ended up walking to the Rip Van Winkle Motel about 100 yards away to stay the night. The next morning at 8 a.m., they left the hotel. They were standing outside in the rain,

and a man named Charles Richardson invited them into his home. You talk about a good Samaritan? Man. Now, I get it. It's the 60s. Right. You know, it's the decade of love,

loving, hate Ashberry, love your fellow neighbor and all that stuff. I just am fast forwarding to 2021. And, okay, if I look out my window and I see a couple standing out in the rain, am I going to willingly invite them into my home?

You? No. No, I am not. And it's not because I'm a mean guy. We've talked about this. I just don't put myself in situations with people that I don't know that could go badly. I try not to. You would open the door and say, hey, and they think, yeah, we're going to let us in.

You're like, no, you need to get off my yard, off my yard. You get off of my yard. Maybe you toss some umbrella. Maybe, maybe. But I think to me, Gibbs, what's even more bizarre was that Charles left for work and left them inside his home. Yeah. He called at about 11.30 a.m. to talk to his maid to check on the couple.

And at that point, she said they had called a taxi and they were leaving. So, I mean, it ends up working out for this gentleman. Right. But I still think it's a little strange. I'm sure, though, later he thinks about who he led in his house. Oh, after he finds out what the, you know, what has happened to a number of people that had run-ins with Glenn and Margo. Absolutely. Oh, you bet your ass.

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That's six bottles of wine for only $29.95 and free shipping at trifirstleaf.com slash teacat. So a driver named C.C. Serrat was dispatched to the house. He radioed that he was heading out to pick up his passengers. And it was at that moment that dispatcher Merle McMillan received a phone call from the police chief who asked her if she sent out a driver to pick up a couple. So she tried to get a hold of CC. She radioed him. He answered and told him that he did have a man and a woman in his car.

But then he never answered the radio again. And on December 26th at 3 p.m. Surat was found slumped over his seat. steering wheel with a bullet in his head. He was still alive at that point, but he later died at the hospital. So in a pretty short period of time, a number of people have lost their lives after coming into contact with Glenn Nash and Margot, Freshwater. Yeah, it's not been good.

No. But their murder spree was about to come to an end. Margo flagged down a bakery truck and asked for a ride. the driver guy by the name of Robert Thornton. He didn't have a radio at the time. And obviously Gibbs, he didn't learn until later that he was driving around some wanted criminals, people who were thought to have been murderers. Thornton did think that the two were a little suspicious.

But he drove through a truck way station and no one arrested the couple there. So I think, you know, he later said at that point, he began to relax a little. He asked Margo if she ran away from home. And she told him yes. Shortly after he dropped them off, Margo and Glenn were arrested in Greenville, Mississippi. You know,

by that time, Cici's body had been found. And a witness said that they saw Margo and Glenn fleeing from a taxi and reported them to police. And police were able to finally track them down. police took them to Hernando, Mississippi. I never heard of Hernando Mississippi. Really?

No, but I'm not spent a lot of time in Mississippi. No, you have not. You probably just go right to Biloxi, don't you? I've never been to Biloxi. Really? No. My mom's been there a bunch, man. She loves to go down there gambling.

She likes that casino, actually. Yeah, but I have not. There goes your inheritance. Exactly. Once they got to Hernando, both Glenn and Margo were charged with murder. Lee Meredith, the arresting officer, gave Glenn some prison pants and took his pants and sent them to D.C. for testing. Margo wasn't real forthcoming with information. She told police that her name was Sue Ann Morrison.

She also refused to give them an address. But she did ask if she could send a letter home to her boyfriend, Alfred. Oh, sweet of her. Sure. Thinking about Alfred. Yeah, because remember, you know, we were speaking. supposed to get him out. Yeah. But instead, we decided to go on a little adventure where a number of people lost their lives. And he might not think of you as his girlfriend anymore since you've been

sleeping with this guy. Yeah, he might want to distance himself a little bit. Although he's probably still in jail at that point. So he would probably welcome a letter at least. Now, Glenn confessed to all the murders. But he was ultimately declared unfit to stand trial. His ex-wife, Gisela, told the authorities that her husband was sick. He shouldn't be in jail. He should be in a hospital. When she found out about his arrest, Gibbs, she hired him a lawyer because she knew that his mental state was declining. And to me, that's interesting, right? You have a couple who gets divorced and the ex-wife still comes to this guy's aid. Yeah. So what does that tell you? Obviously, she still loved him very much. Yeah, cared about him, wanted to make sure that he was

taken care of. Now, we talked about the Bar Association. And they had been investigating Glenn Nash, but he disappeared on December 6th. They had no idea what happened to him. him. Well, obviously after he got arrested, they knew why he had been missing. Three states declared Glenn Nash legally insane. In November 1967, he was committed to a mental hospital, but he eventually earned his freedom in 1983. He returned to live in West Memphis for the rest of his life. And I really couldn't find much on him. But if he's still alive today, he would be in his 90s. Yeah. Maybe if he is still alive, he's hanging out with Elvis. Maybe.

Yeah. You're going with the theory that Elvis is still alive. Well, he works at a Walmart. Oh, and you know that. You have that on good authority. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

I got you. Of course, back in the sporting goods section. And why wouldn't he? Elvis loved guns. Yeah. Loved him. He did. You should shoot his TVs out.

He did. That's exactly what I was going to say. Yeah. Now, only Glenn Nash was indicted for the Florida murders, but Margo was indicted for both the Tennessee and Mississippi murders. She was tried in Mississippi, but was not convicted. The jury failed twice to reach a verdict. So she then went on trial for murder in Tennessee.

That trial began on June 17, 1968. Her defense attorney was a guy by the name of Robert Ritchie. According to the Nashville scene, Richie described her as a deeply troubled teen with an unfortunate attraction to no good men. I do think that's pretty accurate. It's also kind of harsh, but I do think it's accurate. You could also make the argument Gibbs that it's calculated. This description is calculated to paint her as a person who, okay, doesn't make the best decisions,

doesn't always go after the best men, but she's no killer. Right. Right. No good men, meaning he's the one that killed everybody. She just happened to be along with him. So don't blame her. The prosecution argued that even though Margo didn't pull the trigger, she was a willing accomplice who continued her relationship, even after she knew that Glenn Nash was a killer.

and the prosecution characterized them as Bonnie and Clyde. This came up in last week's episode too. Sure did. Yeah. We were talking about Charles Starkweather and Carol Ann Fugate. Those questions kind of linger. Was that a Bonnie and Clyde situation where she was more than a willing participant? Yeah.

Or was she just a long for the ride against her will? In Margot's case, witnesses tell. testified in court that she had opportunities to flee. Apparently there was a 30-minute window where she was alone in a department store while Glenn Nash was outside. Margo also admitted that she and Nash had sex after he killed Hillman Robbins, but she said she was coerced into doing so. Margo testified in her own defense and told the court that Glenn threatened to kill her if she reported him to the police or tried to escape. Well, he put fear into her, according to her.

Yes. And that's kind of like last week too, right? Because Carol would say, he's got my family. Yes. And he'll hurt him if I don't go along with all this. Because I think some of those same questions came up. You know, why didn't you find a chance to run away? Why didn't you leave him somewhere along the trip?

In the spring of 1969, a Memphis jury. found Margo guilty of first degree murder. Now, her jury was made up of all men. Probably seems a little rough in today's standard. It does. And I think a lot of people have made the argument that, okay, you probably had a little or quite a bit of prejudice there. All men against this woman who they most likely viewed as a killer. At just 21 years old, She was sentenced to 99 years in prison for her crimes. Margo appealed but was denied a retrial or a new sentence. That's a long time, buddy.

99 years? Yeah. Yeah. As long as you can get. Yeah. That's like just saying life. Just say life. Well, yeah.

Either just say life with parole, if there's a parole date. 99 years is life. But Margo wouldn't be in prison long. The next year. On October 4th, 1970, Margot and another inmate escaped from the Tennessee prison for women. An unarmed guard was escorting her in a group of inmates outside. Tommy Lewis from the Tennessee Bureau of Investigations told the show Unsolved Mysteries. The guard had to make a decision whether to stay with the main group or chase after these two.

And basically all the guard could do was trying to. try to summon some help and have somebody else go after them. And these two women managed to outrun everyone. They climbed a barbed wire fence and, you know, backup arrived too late and they escaped. I think some of these cards were probably, uh,

not hard to outrun. What do you say? And they might have been portly. Just a little bit. Maybe just a little bit. Maybe I don't know. Now her friend was caught in the early 70s. So she wasn't out that long.

She was caught in Chicago. But Margo made her way back to Ohio. And it's there that she began a new life. But first she went to Baltimore. And that's where she and her companion separated. And she ultimately took a train to Ohio because you have to separate. Yeah, you can't stay together. No.

If you've seen the fugitive, you know, everybody knows that. Exactly. Go your separate ways. And after Margo escaped, she lived. lived a normal life in the suburbs of Ohio, Gibbs over a period of 32 years. Margo became a wife, a mother, and eventually a grandmother. She never committed another crime. As far as we know, maybe I think she had some parking tickets, maybe some traffic violations,

but who hasn't? I know I have a whole drawer full of violations. And I keep telling you ultimately you should pay those. It's going to catch up with you. I'm using the whole COVID thing. Sorry, I'd like to pay these, but COVID's keeping me from coming into the... I imagine there's lots of people using COVID as an excuse for not doing certain things. Yeah.

Some valid. Some not so valid. Margo lived in Mansfield, Marion, Galleon, and eventually came back to Columbus, Ohio. So it seems to me, Gibbs, she went a little bit north. Yeah. For a while, hung out. and then made her way back to her hometown of Columbus, that seems a little strange because if you were on the run,

wouldn't you want to go somewhere you've never been? Somewhere where the chance of you running into anyone that you ever knew was pretty much slim to none, well, that chance kind of goes up exponentially if you go back to your hometown. Yeah, I went to back there. I would have like went to like South Dakota or something. So that's even more amazing that she was able to do this for 32 years. Yeah.

Part of it was because in the early 70s, Margo was able to purchase a new social security number. It's kind of key, right? You need to take on someone else's identity. She took on the identity of a woman named Tanya Myers. So she's got a new. name. She's got a new social security number. She would put fake high schools on job applications. She also managed to avoid having her fingerprint taken for 32 years. That's amazing. It is amazing. Now, obviously, we're talking about technology-wise a much different time. I think nowadays, it would be

much tougher to get away with this type of thing. Not impossible. People steal other people identities all the time. I'm always being fingerprinted it. Yeah, sometimes for very unsavory reasons. I feel bad. I don't know why they always want to do it. We'll stop doing the things that you're doing that caused them to want to fingerprint you. Oh, yeah.

There's that. That's the answer. Yeah. At first, Morgow worked as a waitress. I mean, keep in mind, she was only 22 years old around this time. She ended up getting pregnant again. She gave birth to her son, Phil. And I said she worked as a waitress, right?

There are some jobs that you would, I would think Gibbs have to kind of stay away from. Now, I don't know about in 1970, but I know jobs like teacher. I think even a school bus driver, they're going to take your fingerprint. Sure they are. They're going to run your records and they're going to do this and that. They probably didn't do it in the 70s, but I'm sure there were some jobs that did. And so you would have to have stayed away from those types of jobs. Waitress was not going to be one of them.

No. Not going to be fingerprinted and subjected to probably a real heavy background screening. Unless you're waiting tables at the Pentagon lunchroom. Good thinking. Yeah. Want to stay away from. Margo eventually married a man named Joseph Hudkins, had two more children, and eventually got her license.

to sell insurance. She and her husband drove his tractor trailer across the country. She went to go sightseeing. She lived in Marion, Ohio with Joseph Hudkins from sometime in the 70s to about 1988 when he passed away. In Marion, she was a secretary

at a plastics company. She also worked at J.C. Penny. After her husband's death, Margot moved to Columbus. she worked at MetLife and got remarried. She had a daughter named Angie with her new husband. I mean, she is really living life. Yeah.

So the fullest. Yeah. Having children, getting remarried. I mean, I think you have to be pretty confident in your backstory that you're going to be able to sell it to these people. And obviously, and you and I have talked about. this before, not for a long time, but the screening process to get certain jobs back in, you know, the 70s, even into the 80s definitely was not what it is today. No, no. And at this

point, she's almost more Tanya than she is Margo. Yeah, at a certain point, she's going to surpass the number of years that she was Margo freshwater. You know, if you think about it, she would have been Tanya at some point longer than Margo. And she has the identification to back her up. And I would think it would become easier and easier as you build a history as this person, right? You worked at this place. You did that.

And they knew you there as Tanya. Right. Let's say. Okay. So your next employer, hey, call my old place of employment. They'll verify. And they will.

you're now Tanya. Margo avoided her relatives. And this is something we talked about, right? Why would you go back to Columbus? She had relatives that still live there. They knew who she really was and would have been able to blow her cover quite easily. She never made contact with her family. She didn't make contact with old friends. In 1984, her siblings declared her legally dead. And apparently, she saw her aunt once at a flea market, but said later that her aunt didn't even recognize her. She also ran into a nurse that she knew from high school, but again, this woman didn't recognize her either. And I get that. You know, people change quite a bit over the years. And depending on how well you knew them, if you hadn't seen someone in what, let's say 15, 20 years, would you you immediately recognize them? Maybe not. You might say, you know what?

That person looks familiar. I just don't know how I know them though. Right. Because you haven't seen. Now, if you saw them at a reunion every five years, yeah. Okay, maybe you do in 20 years still recognize them. They've changed, but you've seen some of those changes throughout the years. This is a little different situation.

And more importantly, really, when you're at 18, you're going to look a whole lot different later in life than you would if it was like, well, I remember seeing you when you were 30, now you're 50. Yeah, I get you. Yeah, except for me. I look exactly like I did when I was 18. You know, you're getting younger by the year. I got a Benjamin button thing going on. You do. Yeah. It's interesting. All right, Gibbs. Let's take our last break and talk about best fiends. You've heard me say it before. I have a number of guilty pleasures. I watch the latest Netflix true crime series. I like Xbox games. Sometimes. I feel guilty when I'm doing those things that I'm not getting my work done. But you know what I don't feel

guilty about is how much I love playing Best Fiends. Best Fiends gives me an endless source of fun that I can access any time right on my phone. Best Fiends is a match three puzzle game like none other with literally thousands of levels and new content added all the time. You've heard me talk about this for a long time now and I'm still obsessed with it. And I think that speaks volumes because it means it doesn't I still get excited when I hit that next level and then that pushes me on to want to hit the level after that. With Best Feens, there's something new today and tomorrow and every day after that. There's literally thousands of levels to play and counting. Plus, they have tons of cute characters to collect. So if you never get tired of solving puzzles, well, good news with Best Feens, the fun never

ends. Download Best Feens free today on the Apple App Store or Google Play. That's Friends Without the are best fiends after police were unable to find her for a number of years they began to theorize that she had adopted a false identity and was in hiding but they had no idea how close she really was and i think it goes back to how many people would have thought that even ohio let alone columbus would be the place where she would be hiding out they probably didn't even check that hard because no one, they thought no one in their right mind would choose to go back to where they, you know, had lived. Exactly.

Like, nah, we don't even, don't even search there. There's no way she would go back there. On May 5th, 1993, she was put on the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation's original most wanted list. She was the only woman in the top 10. She was on America's Most Wanted in 1994, Agent Greg Costas from the Ohio Bureau of criminal investigation was assigned to her cold case. The FBI managed to track her to Baltimore after she escaped prison, but they lost the

trail from there. The only lead they had was from her fellow fugitive. She revealed in 1971 that Margot used the alias Tanya. The show producers for America's Most Wanted asked Ohio law enforcement for information on Margo's background. They reopened her file to research her, and Agent Costas went to interview Alfred Schlerath in 1994. He also interviewed her brother Tommy, some other family members, and some of her old friends. He located the father of the baby that Margo gave up for adoption in 1966 and searched phone records. He had a court order to monitor the family's mail. But nothing came from any of these leads.

And after America's Most Wanted premiered, viewers called in and said they'd seen her in grocery stores and parking lots all over America. And I think this has to happen. Oh, yeah. And it has because we know we've talked about it, especially on a number of unsolved cases. So many leads come in. The majority of them, I think police know can't possibly be true. You know, they put fugitives or, you know, missing persons all over the country at essentially

the same exact time period, which can't be true. Yeah, I think they look for that cluster of where the majority of the sightings occurred. But Costas did have two pretty good leads, a woman named Freshwater, who married a man with the last name Margo, and a woman from Canada who sent a letter to. to Margo's half brother. But neither of these women turned out to be Margo Freshwater. And by 1995, the case was cold again. From 2000 to 2002, Margo lived in an apartment with her new husband, Darryl McArthur.

Gibbs, the apartment was just 12 miles away from her childhood home. So number one, that's kind of balsy. It really is. I think. Yeah. And number two, Margo Freshwater. has no problem meeting eligible bachelors. No.

She seemed to be very good at that. She is. Darrell met Tanya through a telephone dating service. On their first date, they went to McDonald's. That's a heck of a first date. It should be everybody's first date. Set the expectations right there. I'm going to get you a Big Mac and you're going to like it.

I know that's how you roll. There's not going to be any surf and turf on the first day because that's just setting the bar way too high. And we're going to split that. Mac, right down the middle. And we're going Dutch. On the second date, they went ballroom dancing. Which I know you love.

Oh, yeah. I actually took ballroom dancing. I believe that. I'm not ashamed to admit it at all. I loved it. You probably still have your little dance shoes. I'd go on dancing with the stars if they'd ask me. Not a star, but I'd go on.

I don't think they're going to come knocking any time soon. I don't think they will. I don't think they have any clue who I am. But within a few months of meeting, they got married. At this point, they were both in their 50s. It was Daryl's second marriage and Tanya's third. He was a truck driver. She was an insurance agent at the time.

They enjoyed bowling, horseback riding and road tripping in Daryl's truck. She had her own CB handle, Gibbs. It was sexy legs. Very similar to yours. Yeah, very similar. I can't disclose what mine actually is, but it's not all that far off. But they drove all over the country. And it was reported that Margo received a couple of tickets for speeding, but the highway patrol never questioned her because technically she had a valid driver's license.

And I guess sexy legs. And sexy legs. But what Margo didn't know was that police were hard at work still trying to track her down. I think, you know, at this point, you have the rise of the internet. and that's really what helped police find her. In 2001, the case was assigned to Agent Greg Elliott from the TBI. Unsolved Mysteries contacted the TBI in 2002 to get information for an update episode. The internet was pretty widespread, you know, by this point.

And it had become a useful tool for law enforcement. They had all those databases out there now. Yeah, so you didn't have to sit around, you know, thumbing through paper files all the time. You could hit these databases. They began tracking Margot's various aliases, which was the key to capturing her. A computer analyst told Agent Elliott to enter the alias Tanya, followed by Margo's birthday. And that's when they found Tanya Hudkins in Worthington, Ohio. She had the same birthday as Margo Freshwater.

At first, they didn't believe that she'd be hiding in plain sight. And I don't think I would have believed it either. It seems too easy. Elliot called Agent Costas, who also didn't believe it. He pulled up Tanya's Ohio driver's license and compared it to Margot's mugshot. And the resemblance was there. Yeah. They described it as looking at a mother and daughter.

Agent Costa subpoenaed Tanya's employee records and found a gap in her history from 1966 to 1970. There you go. Yeah, kind of hard to explain that for a year period when she was on the run and in jail. Tanya listed Cleveland as her birthplace, but there was no record of her birth in Cleveland. The high school she listed also didn't exist. They knew that at the very least, even if Tanya, Hudkins was not Margo freshwater. This woman was hiding something. He needed to find out what? So they staked out Tanya's apartment for several days. No one came out.

And then I think police learned that she and her husband, Daryl, were on a road trip. On May 18th, 2002, Costas was driving home from work and decided to stop by the apartment. Daryl's truck was in the driveway. He called their house phone. and a woman answered. He told her it was a wrong number and hung up. But then he called the DA and he begged for a search warrant. The next morning, May 21st, he and Agent Elliott decided to follow her around town.

And Margot was captured later that day. The morning of her arrest, she ate breakfast with her family at Jolly Pirate Donuts. I remember those. Yeah. Yeah. How about that? Now, she didn't realize that she was being followed by Costas and Elliot.

but why would she even think? She had gotten away with this for a very long time. It's been 30 some years. I don't even know if by that point you're even looking over your shoulder anymore. I think you're pretty confident. I think so. They followed her to a car wash and a grocery store. And I guess this Elliott guy, he even entered the grocery store and he spoke to her about fabric softners.

Of course, she has no idea who this guy is. And the stakeout team followed her back to her apartment. The DA finally issued the search warrant after comparing the mugshot and driver's license photos. Margo was headed to the athletic club with her family to go for a swim. But the agents panicked. They thought that she was heading to the nearby airport. Most likely, their thinking was, okay, she spotted us.

She figured it out. She's on to it. And she's going to run. So they made a plan to intercept her. And it was outside the athletic club with her family. That plainclothes agent surrounded her and arrested her. She was with her husband, her youngest son, his fiance,

and her grandson. It was a little strange to have a whole group bum rush you and arrest your grandma. It would be, uh, Twilight Zone. Yeah. What is going on here, grandma?

I'm sure Daryl was like, uh, what are you doing to my wife? Yeah, because, you know, these people don't know her as anything other than, I'm assuming, a loving, caring wife, mother, grandmother. That's all they know. I have no idea who Margo Freshwater is or what she had done in the past. But they learned the truth about who Tanya was. Darrell later told the L.A. Times. It was like we walked out of a movie theater and now, we're in the movie. So this team approached her and asked her if she was Tanya McCartor.

She nodded. Costas told her, we have reason to believe you're not who you say you are. And I think as any husband would do, Daryl stepped up and he said, what are you talking about? This is my wife. Her son Timothy said, hey, this is my mom. And the agents told them she was Margot freshwater. And apparently her son and daughter-in-law laughed. They thought it was some type of scam. Yeah. Tanya didn't say a thing. And agents told her she was under arrest. All she asked was to say goodbye to her family.

She gave each of them a hug and whispered to each of them. I was afraid this day would come. So pretty much admitting that up. Yeah. It's up. I'm caught. It had to be a really strange night that night. When they all go back home and sit around, the kitchen table, what just happened?

happened who is mom yeah all of that and at some point the realization's going to hit that a very large part of your life has been a lie this person that you thought you knew they're still kind of that person because they did all those things they raised you they loved you but they had a past that you didn't know about and you're going to have to come to terms with that yeah as punitive for her escape. Margo had one year added to her 99-year sentence. Let's make it an even hundred. Yeah, we just round that baby up. At the hearing, Margo didn't say a thing. Now, instead of plotting another escape, she began a legal battle to try to get out of prison. And of course, her family is hoping that she'd be able to get a retrial and she'd be found innocent and freed. At first, her attorney

tried to argue that her identity had been mistaken. The fingerprint evidence was challenged, and then Margot completely denied that she was Margo freshwater and she fought extradition to Tennessee. Eventually, her lawyer changed tactics and argued that Glenn Nash manipulated Margo and threatened her while the prosecution claimed that she was an active participant. Agent Costas interviewed Margo in exchange for letting her say goodbye to her family, she told him that she never lived life looking over her shoulder because to her, Margo Freshwater was dead. She died so Tanya could live.

And I think Gibbs, it became evident that Margo had convinced herself that the events that occurred in 1966 never even happened. I think you would have to get that out of your head, right? try to you'd have to try to for sure when they asked her why she came back she told them that ohio was all she knew and she added that she only had enough money for the train to get to ohio now she didn't have an explanation for why she never changed her birthday and that was a big blunder essentially it was one of the big reasons that she was caught yeah wonder how many day she beat herself up over that in prison.

I would just, man, why don't just, she just changed the year. Yeah, just 32 years out and they got me over this. Yeah. She told her family that she wasn't the same person she was back then. And they believed her. They promised to stand by her. They raised money for her defense. They handed out flyers saying a loving grandmother, mother and wife in Columbus,

Ohio needs your help. While Margo was in prison, her young. youngest son, Tim, visited her. At the time he was 22 years old. And Gibbs, he had gone his entire life, not knowing this dark secret that his mother was hiding. I mean, hell, none of them knew it. Margo's neighbors had no idea that they lived next to an escaped felon. Her family wasn't angry with her at all. I think Gibbs they were angry at the police because they felt that it was the police who had ruined their lives. They also believed that she, she was a victim of Glenn Nash.

And I think this goes back to what I said earlier, right? These people didn't know Margot Freshwater. They only knew Tanya, who was a loving wife and mother, cooked their meals, did the laundry, showed up to their baseball games. She reunited with her brother Tommy in November 2002. And I think all along, the authorities thought that she and Tommy had met

or had some type of contact while she was on the run. But that's not true. It's not. Tommy claims the last time he saw her was 36 years before they reunited when they were both teenagers living in Columbus. I've been like, hey, sis, that's a really long couple days. I'll see you in a couple days, 36 years later. It's like the guy who tells his family he's going out for cigarettes and never comes back, ever.

Yeah. And Margo backed that up. You know, she said that she moved back to Columbus, you know, about two weeks after she escaped from prison. But she never contacted her brothers or her aunt. Tommy told the Nashville scene, I saw the little girl. And then I saw the hurt and the pain. She lost the whole family. But I guess she gained a new one too. He was initially upset to find out his sister had been captured, but also relieved that she was a lot. Yeah, I think you've been wondering for 36 years, is my sister dead somewhere? What happened to my sister?

Where is she at? What's going on with her? Or let's not forget, they had her legally declared dead in 1984. True. Yeah. So living with that kind of grief and heartache that thinking your sister was dead and then finding out she's alive, but oh, now she's got to go back to prison. Right. Margot petition for a retrial.

Her defense claimed that the authorities got a statement from an informant that proved she was innocent. And in 2006, the hearings for the retrial began. Margo was unable to attend her hearing due to a heart condition. The jailhouse foreman had died. And there were no records that Glenn Nash confessed to him that he was the only shooter in all of the murders. Now, her attorney argued that this would have been. much more useful evidence, obviously, and the verdict would have been different if the defense would have known about it back in 1969. And her defense team argued that the real criminal, Glenn Nash,

was free while Margot was in prison. But the judge didn't buy it. He said that Margot had aided and abetted the crimes and used the money from the robberies. Margo was eventually granted a retrial, but she ultimately decided to go with a plea deal. On October 28th, 2011, Margo pled guilty to aiding and abetting. She entered what's called a best interest plea, which set aside the first degree murder conviction, gave her credit for time served,

and still allowed her to maintain her innocence. So it sounds somewhat similar to an offered plea. Sure does. we've talked about. I'm not as familiar with this best interest plea. It's kind of interesting. The prosecution wasn't happy. They protested the plea deal, arguing that it was unfair, that Margot got to live her life all of these years on the lamb while her victims didn't. The DA argued that no doubt in his mind. Margo was guilty. But since most of the witnesses were deceased. All they had were trial transcripts back from the late 60s, which were not going to

have the same impact as live witnesses on the stand. No doubt. Just not going to have the impact you're going to get if you have a witness up there telling you what happened. Yeah, there's no way that just reading a trial transcript is going to convey the same emotion, right? As a witness would saying they were fearful. This is what they saw. and all that. Margo was officially freed from prison on November 1st, 2011. She was 63 years old. She had only been married for 18 months in this latest marriage when she was arrested in May 2002,

and she was ready to restart her marriage to Darrow. Although she pled guilty, Margot has always maintained her innocence. According to the Columbus Dispatch, her attorney stated, the true measure of her character was evidenced by her new life after she escaped. TBI agent Tommy Lewis investigated Margo for five years, but he stated that her behavior during her time on the run does reflect her true character. He also thought that she had been psychologically conditioned to believe she couldn't escape from Glenn. Daryl McCarter was happy to bring his wife home. In total, she spent

12 and a half years in prison. And I think like everyone who does, you know, some extensive time, she had a lot of trouble adjusting to freedom. You know, when all of a sudden Gibbs, you can go outside whenever you want. That's hard for some people. Really tough. Especially when you've been used to, you know,

a system that tells you what to do and when to do it, realizing that you can just get up anytime you want. to and go to the kitchen to get a snack, it might take a while. A little bit. Yeah. I was watching that documentary, The Innocent Man.

And, you know, one of the victims, family members became a death penalty rights advocate in Oklahoma. And she was interviewing a man who had been in prison for, I want to say, 20, 30 years. But it was found out that he was wrongfully convicted. And he was talking about going to a restaurant.

and he said the menu was just too big. For 20, 30 years, he had been told what to eat at every meal. Now he's got this big menu and he can't decide. Yeah. So what he would do is he would just listen to what everybody else ordered and he would just say, I'll have that. Yeah, just pick from one of those. And I mean, it was, it was incredibly powerful.

It was sad that because he was wrongfully convicted. Sure. And DNA later proved it. But I think it does speak to, you know, how conditioned you get being in the prison system and how hard it is for people after they get out. No doubt. I mean, you think about even just in the movie, Shalshank, right? When he's at the grocery store bagging groceries.

Yeah. Raising his hand and asking if he can use the bathroom, you know. The guy says, you don't have to ask me every time. Yeah, but that's what he's conditioned to. Sure. That's what he expects that he has to do. When you have virtually zero freedom. Yeah.

And then all of a sudden you have almost unlimited freedom. Yeah. It's such a stark contrast that it is going to take a while to get used to it. I mean, it was like all those years I had that wooden chair here. And to leave here, be able to sit in a soft chair. I was like, where's my wooden chair? Because I feel like I shouldn't be sitting in this soft chair when I was at my day job. Are you comparing this studio?

to a prison because that is wrong and slanderous. 2011 was the last time we could find that Margo was in the news. Gibbs, I assume she's trying to move forward, continue her life. I believe her family has forgiven her for lying. And they're just happy to have her back home. And I'm sure she is just as happy.

I'm sure she is. And I'll also bet that she'll probably just live in Ohio until the day she dies. But I thought it was an interesting case. Yet it had some similarities to the case that we did just last week because I do think at the end of the day, you have to make that determination. Everybody does. What kind of hold did Glenn Nash have on Margo? right was it a situation where she was fearful and felt as though she had to go along with him

or maybe he would hurt her or did she just kind of go along with him and you know he killed these individuals but she spent the money right along with him yeah i don't know the answer to that i think there's really only a couple of people that can truly know what that answer is but i will say you know spending 32 years on the outside and essentially being a model human being. I think that tells you something about what her true deep down, pull all the layers away, you know, bottom line personality is. Doesn't mean she didn't do something wrong in 1966. It doesn't mean that at all.

but it definitely means that she can be a contributing member of society. I wouldn't put her in the same category, obviously, as some other killers that we talk about, both male and female, who to my way of thinking should never be let out, ever, some of these individuals that you and I profile, because there's really little doubt in my mind that the minute they're out, the wheels would start in their head of trying to figure out who they could kill next. I truly believe that. I'm right there with you.

That's it, Gibbs, for our episode on Margo Freshwater. A little different. I enjoyed it. I thought it was interesting to research and, you know, see how a woman could escape and essentially out with the cops for 32 years. That's a long time. It is a long time. Now, they caught her and she, she did time. She didn't do 99 years, but I think you can see why. Yeah, at the end of the day, her escaping was the best thing she could have done. It worked out in her favor. Sure, it did. Now, could you make the argument that that

99 would have paroled her in X number of years? Yes. Sure you could have. But what's that number? Right. Is it 20, 25? Most likely she would have done more time in prison, I think, if she had not escaped. We've got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Always want to hear those. Hi, my name is Jenae Johnson from Utah, and I just want to say how much I love your podcast. I don't know if this is strange or not, but I did listen to two crime unsolved for a long time.

I've been a T-Cat listener for years and years, and this is pretty much when you start. but I can't listen to unsolved much anymore because it makes me uncomfortable when they're not solved. So I like to just listen to the T-Cat because it's actually solved. And I've turned this on to some of my kids. They're all gone and out of the house and they have called me and let me know how much they like the show. So I'm pretty excited about that. And I just want to let you know that I am neither team Givie or team Mike. I love you both.

And keep your own time ticking. Thank you. Hey, we're team you. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's really cool. Anytime a parent and a child can bond over something. Because I mean, for me, I struggle with that. Finding things that my daughters and I can be into at the same time.

now my oldest daughter loves true crime so we'll sit and watch the newest documentary whatever comes out on Netflix or you know whatever it is right but outside of that she's into makeup okay not so much yeah you quit doing that I quit a long time ago sure I still do your makeup for your Rex West events but you know those are getting fewer and farther between but it's important to you know look good yeah and I'd like to keep up my skills. Yeah. But no, in all seriousness, I think it's very important and I'm sure it's gratifying for her. Okay. The next call, we're going to talk about this and what did you think. And that's interesting. Hi, Mike and Giddy. My name is Lethasha Powers and I'm calling from

Richmond, Virginia. We all love us here. I just, it's very quite nervous calling. I thought that it would have been easy like some other people too. But it's actually kind of nervous. But you know what? I think I got the hang of it. I just wanted to thank you guys for all of your hard work and your dedication. And I've been listening to you guys for about two years now. I started listening to you guys when I was working as a housekeeper supervisor.

And when I was cleaning my rooms, you guys were like so awesome to listen to. I love you guys. It's Banser all the way. to graduate in college. So it's been so, so, so, so hard felt and warming to listen to you guys. As working in the health care

dealing with COVID, it does get rough at times, but I don't think you guys understand the magnitude and just the ease of me knowing that there's a podcast coming and hearing you guys speak. So thank you so much all the way from Virginia.

And as always, stay safe and keep your own time picking. Kind of warms you, doesn't it? It does. To hear things like that. I mean, we look at, you know, what people like her doing and say, that's amazing. You know, frontline people, not just health care workers, which just sounds like she is. You know, I'm talking about people delivering the grub hub and the door dash and people at my local Kroger.

Yeah. Who are making sure that and have been for a year that I can get what. what I need to live. I mean, all of that's been amazing. It is. It's so much appreciative. But then to hear somebody say, okay, well, we're helping keep them going. Yeah.

It really warms my heart. It really does. Yep. Hey, this Jason, the carpet guy. I called a few years back. I first started listening because of the BTK episode. I'm from the Wichita area, so that case has always interested me. So that's, I started listening in episode three, four, and five.

But anyway, I was just calling with kind of an update, which it's not good. And it is April Cool's, but this is not April Fool's joke. Got off the phone with my little brother. He has run into some trouble and with some mental problems, been in and out of prison, but he is in El Dorado where BTK is. He got himself put in the hole, and now he lives directly above BTK. So there's that. But anyway, I just told them to let you guys know.

I love the show. It is my favorite true crime podcast. I listen to probably 50 or 60, but I'm always excited Sunday when true crime and true crime all the time come out. So keep it up, guys. Oh, and I did finally donate. I should have done that forever ago, but I donated on PayPal. So hopefully that helps out a little bit, but keep your own time ticking. Thanks.

Well, it always helps out. And the donations we get through PayPal and our Patreon folks, it's helped tremendously. over the last year, no secret. We haven't had as much advertising as we have had in the few years before. But so it all helps us to keep the ship going. I wonder if his brother plays Tolet telephone with the BTK. I don't know. It's too bad.

There's not a drain in the middle. Yeah. It just kind of flows down onto BTK. Oh, there you go. I like that picture. I think you do. Yeah. I think we all do.

All right, buddy. we had some mailbag. We actually had quite a bit. Our good friend Katie O'Connor sent us in a huge box of goodies. Oh, thanks, Katie. A bunch of different types of licorice for you, Duke sausages and coffee for me. Yeah. So we love that. Jorge Madrano sent us in a bunch of things as well.

Gibbs, he sent some gift cards in for my girls. Oh, that's awesome. Starbucks, Chipotle for their work while you were out. Yeah. Reading off the names with me. he sent us some very, very cool. They're serial killer coins, Dahmer, Manson, Gacy. And he got him from like this really cool oddities shop.

And I forget the name or I would give a plug for it. Right. Somersen and a Harley chip, but also knives for each of us. Mine is a motorcycle knife. Yeah. And she pointed out that she sent you a really small knife. And it is a really small pocket knife. tiny because she figured I already have to compete with the K bar and so she didn't want to give

you any more advantage than what you already have I'll still slice you and dice you even though you got me a K bar for Christmas and I have my own K bar I know and you're looking at it eyeing it from here it's closer to me than it is to you yeah I'm pretty sure I can get to it quicker yeah we'll see jason board all right we love everyone that is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gabby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.