True Crime All The Time - Mark Latunski

Episode Date: March 10, 2025

Kevin Bacon left home on Christmas Eve 2019 to see a man he met on a dating app that evening. After his parents reported him missing the following day, the police received a tip that led them to the home of Mark Latunski, who was already known to police because of two disturbing incidents earlier that year. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Mark Latunski. Before meeting Kevin, two different men called 911 to report that Mark Latunski had kept them chained up in his basement. But both men declined to press charges, and it seems police did little investigation. Could police have prevented the murder and cannibalism carried out by Mark Latunski?You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 425 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. How are you? Hey, I'm doing good about you. I'm doing really well. Good. You and I just got done recording our Patreon mini episode, weekly episode. And, you know, talked about all the things that we're watching, things that are going on in our lives.

seem like a lot. Yeah. Especially the amount of stuff we're watching. Pretty busy guys. Yeah. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Lynn Brown. Hey, Lynn.

Fay Knight. I appreciate that, Faye. Bree Smith. Thanks, Bree. Vernon forward jumped down to our highest level. Oh, you're awesome, Vernon. Caleb. Hey, Caleb.

Gary. What's going on, Gary? Annie Garcia. Hey, Annie. It's just Maddie. Oh, good old Maddie. Arlene McDonald. Hey, Arlene.

C.C. Lemon. What's up, C.C.? Tim Cosgrove. Hey, Tim. And last but not least, Michael Kelly. With a name like Michael, you got to be good. And then if we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Debbie Duffy. Thanks, Debbie.

Yeah, appreciate the new support, the continued support. We also had some great PayPal donations from Amanda Stewart. Thanks, Amanda. And Jennifer Brunswick. Oh, awesome, Jennifer. So thanks to you as well. All right. So right now, we have a new episode out on True Crime All the I'm unsolved where we're talking about Jody Hoosent, True.

She was a popular anchor at a local news station in Iowa. She went missing early one morning while rushing out the door for work and has never been found. It's a pretty well-known unsolved case. Yeah. From a relatively small town in Iowa. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the time? I am ready. We are talking about Mark Luton.

Kevin Bacon left home on Christmas Eve 2019 to see a man he met on a dating app that evening after his parents reported him missing the following day. The police received a tip that led them to the home of Mark Lutonski, who was already known to police because of two disturbing incidents earlier that year. All right, hold on. I'm assuming we're talking about a different Kevin Bacon. Yes. This is a different Kevin Bacon, not the actor, not the footloose guy. And we're going to get into everything about this Mark Lutonski. It's a lot.

I mean, we're talking kidnapping, cannibalism, keeping people chained in his basement. I mean, we're going down a rough road here and I just want people to be prepared. So maybe not a mill time episode? No, probably not. Kevin Bacon was born on November 28, 1994 in Lansing, Michigan. He grew up in a close family with his mother, Pamela Van Horn, his dad, Carl Bacon, and his sister, Jennifer, Bacon. His parents told M-Live that they didn't name him after the actor. They explained that they wanted their son to have the same initials as his father, but they didn't want to name him Carl Jr.

but I will say I had a thought Gibbs that you know growing up with the name Kevin Bacon I mean we know how kids make fun of other kids sure for all kinds of things yeah you're gonna get some Kevin Bacon jokes some six degrees of separation there's there's just gonna be stuff that comes with it or sure but I also you know don't know if you want to be named Carl Jr. there just happens to be a hamburger franchise. Exactly. Carl Jr. Bacon? I can see some jokes right there. Yeah, because, you know, if you think about it, isn't Carl Jr. is the one that has those,

or had at one time, all those commercials with like scantily clad women eating hamburgers, like on the hoods of a car? With the burger juices, yeah. You're dripping? Yeah. I'm pretty sure that was Carl's Jr. Yeah. According to friends and family, Kevin was always there for others.

When his loved ones were going through a hard time, he provided a listening ear and offered support. All right. Sounds like a good kid. Yeah. The Rolling Stone reported that Kevin's flamboyant style made him stand out. He liked to dye his hair. Bright colors. His friend Sarah Hope Spencer told the outlet, everyone knew Kevin.

He's big, tall, and usually had something crazy. going on. And I would say that describes you very well. Maybe not the tall part so much, but the rest of it. Just got a lot going on. A lot of something crazy going on. Kevin had enjoyed doing hair since he was in high school. Kevin told his friends that his dad didn't want him to be a hairstylist. Carl Bacon, who worked as a packaging engineer, wanted his son to go into a technical trait. Okay, I don't know that that's, all that uncommon for a dad maybe to try to steer one of his children, maybe to follow in his footsteps or a mom to do that. But it's a pretty big difference, right? From what Kevin is passionate about,

right, which is hair, doing hair, cutting hair, all of that to something in kind of a more technical type of field. You know what? If you're a hairstylist, you can be a hair stylist. You can be a lot. You can make some pretty good money there. You build up your clientele, you can make some really good money, and you can take that job wherever you go. As long as you can get a license in the next state, you know, if you need a license, it's a pretty good business. Kevin eventually decided to go to college. He was accepted into Eastern Michigan University, which was his dream school, but he couldn't afford the housing deposit. He attended Baker College instead, but eventually dropped out and earned his cosmetology license.

So, you know, it does sound like, okay, he made a run at it. Maybe he was going to try to do what his dad wanted him to do, but realized, hey, this ain't for me. I just can't do it, dad. And he ultimately followed his dreams. He got a job as a receptionist at a JC Penny and eventually became a hairstylist there. Do you remember when JC Pennies used to have hair places? Hair places.

Yeah. Hair places. No, I actually don't. J.C. Penny is kind of fading from my memory, unfortunately. As is Sears, they all seem to have vanished. I think J.C. pennies is only one left around, but I don't know if they do hair still. Do we still have a J.C. Penny at our mall? I don't know if we have one near you, but there's still one around.

I just don't know how many are left. Okay. Well, I assume there's one around somewhere, but I don't have one. So, but, you know, I, I know over the years, some of those places, they, they did have a lot of different things going on. They tried different things. I don't remember, like a kind of a salon type thing inside the store, but I'm not doubt in your veracity at all. I mean, look, it's veracity. I've got a lot of veracity.

Yeah, you do. Um, it's, it's a good concept. I mean, I think that's why you see it in Walmarts and places like that. Whatever you can do to drive the business into your store. Yeah. And hope that they stay and go ahead and do other things. Go get some my glasses or do the shopping or go to the pharmacy, you know. Longer you stay, keep them there, the more money they're going to spend.

Yeah. So, you know, you're, you're tapping into the idea of one stop shopping. Yes. Kind of, right. J.C. Penny was never going to be quote unquote. one-stop shopping, but it was said that Kevin felt frustrated by the low pay and once told friends he was going to the Upper Peninsula for a job. They didn't know what the job was, but it was supposed to pay well. Kevin returned nine days later and said he was bored in a rural area where there was

no dating scene for gay men. And I can imagine that being true. Anybody who has ever been to the UP, it's probably not a hotbed for the gay dating scene. Yeah. It's very rural, middle of nowhere type stuff in some places. Good if you want to take a snowmobile out. Yeah, or be alone, have a unabomber type cabin. Okay. The UP is probably a good place to set that up.

But we love our UP listeners. I'm not saying they're all unabombers. I'm just saying, there is a lot of places I think you can be alone up there. Secluded areas. Yeah. Kevin then attended school at the University of Michigan Flint and did hair on the side. But Kevin had a history of mental health problems.

He struggled with depression, body image issues, and self-harm. And unfortunately, so many people do struggle with some or all of these things. Yeah, I think we both have people in our in our own personal worlds that struggle with things like that. Absolutely. Especially depression. I feel like depression has hit a lot of people hard and maybe even more so since COVID. Yeah. Because you think about what we all went through, being cooped up and I think people are still struggling.

Isolation can do some damage over time. No doubt about it. In October 2018, Kevin went to the movies with his friend and roommate Michelle Myers. According to Michelle, Kevin was out of it after watching a scene in the film that depicts suicide. Okay. She said he was out of it. That's pretty vague, but also a little scary. Yeah.

The following day, Kevin overdosed on pills and had to go to the hospital to get his stomach pumped. A month later, his mother took him back to the hospital because Kevin didn't feel safe. So no doubt, he was going through a lot of different things. By 2019, Kevin was still struggling with his mental health, but he looked forward to moving to Chicago, to be closer to friends and part of a larger LGBTQ plus community. Yeah, I think he would have found that there. Yeah, I mean, bigger cities, right? you think about New York, Chicago, L.A., Miami,

right. Places like that, they are going to have a much bigger LGBTQ plus community than the upper peninsula of Michigan. There's just no way around it. For sure. Kevin visited his friend Kimberly went in the city and loved it so much.

He was determined to move there. But he struggled to manage his finances. He had to delay his move until he could save up more money. Now, I love Chicago. I have been there a number of times. There's a lot to do there. Sure is. I love the hot dogs.

I think I've mentioned that more than once. You're big into the hot dogs, I know. I also love the beef sandwiches. No, the butter cheddar popcorn mix. Oh, that's right. You do that Chicago mix. Not, no, I'm sorry. I said it wrong.

Carmel cheese. The Chicago mix. The Chicago, what they call the Chicago mix. But there's just so much I like about Chicago. The thing is, I think it's pretty expensive to live in Chicago. It is. So, you know, to think about a guy who is probably not making a ton of money at J.C. Penny up and moving to Chicago.

It's kind of like your son just picking up and moving to L.A. I know. It was a little bit of a shock, I think. Oh, for sure. to both of you on how expensive it is to live in certain city. Very much so.

Compared to where we live here. At the time, Kevin was living in Schwartz Creek, Michigan. But he disliked the slower lifestyle of a small town. And I think that cuts both ways, right? Some people love that slower pace, small town vibe.

Everybody knows each other. Kind of where I'm at now. Yeah. Yeah. And that's where I grew up. I loved it. Now, if you're gay and you want to be around other people who share your same interests. Right.

Maybe a slower-paced small town, it's not going to cut it. Because let's face it in some of these smaller towns, that scene just isn't there. Yeah. Correct. Yeah. Kevin was also struggling with relationships. His friend Vanessa Woodley told the Rolling Stone, Kevin's biggest thing was he just always wanted to feel love. And he never felt accepted by, you know, men and things like that. And I think that's probably why he was always on the dating apps and, you know, Tinder and stuff like that. Kevin's friend said he dated men who psychologically abused him or used him for things like free run.

They said he was attracted to people he thought he could fix. But then the failed relationships made him depressed. Man, how many relationships have gone bad because you feel like you can save somebody? Or fix them. You know, you've heard that time and time again. A fixer-ropper, if you want to use that term. And it's not just women. It's men, too.

Absolutely, it is. Some people just feel. or maybe they're attracted to that type of person because they think they can really help them. Kevin was at a low point with his mental health. In late 2019, after another relationship ended, his friend Vanessa drove him to a psychiatric hospital twice that fall. His roommate, Michelle, told the Rolling Stone

that Kevin engaged in self-harm. In November 2019, he checked himself into a psychiatric treatment center two weeks later. So, I mean, there's no doubt. He is struggling mightily with his mental health. I think that is so very clear to see. But he recognizes it and gets help. Yeah, which is a very good thing. Sure it is. Some people are so, you know, far into the grips of whatever is going on that they can't see what's going on and or are unwilling to go get help. In December 2019, Kevin got a new job at a salon in Swartz Creek. He planned to pursue a psychology degree at the University of Michigan Flint. Pretty bold. What part? The new job at the

salon or pursuing a psychology degree. Getting that psychology degree. And why is it bold? Those are not easy degrees to get. Says the man who got his MD and JD in the same year at the age of 15. Look, I paid the money, got the certificate. Printed the certificate. No, I get you. I'm getting with Kevin, you know, here's a guy who, you know, he really wants to better himself. He's not stopped trying to do that. I wonder if he decided on that after going through what he went through.

As far as the mental health issues, it could be. It really could have been. Maybe he wanted to help other people with some of the same stuff that, you know, he had experienced. Kevin only had this new job for a week before he was murdered. His boss, Andrew Payne, told him live, from the small amount of time we spent together, you could feel how deep and empathetic he was. He was very candid about his battles with depression, and we connected over our shared issues. He was truly kind.

So hopefully we've done a good job, right? Kind of painting the picture of this man, Kevin Bacon. In the late afternoon of December 24th, 2019, Kevin went on the dating app Grindr. And connected with a man who lived in Bennington Township, Kevin intended on meeting this man for sex that night. Kevin's roommate, Michelle, said he was having family problems at the time. That day, Kevin finished his shift at the salon.

and met his sister and mother to do their hair. They informed him someone he didn't want to see, was coming over for Christmas Eve dinner, so he decided not to attend. Kevin wanted a distraction, which is why he went on Grindr. His friend said this wasn't abnormal behavior. Kevin often bragged about his casual relationships,

but he also used sex to escape his problems. While Kevin was on the phone, he chatted with Michelle, about her Christmas Eve plans, she was going to a friend's place. Kevin got ready and left home at 5.20 p.m. He texted his roommate at 6.12 p.m. informing her he'd be out for a while and wasn't sure when he'd be back. Kevin's father reported him missing on Christmas Day after he missed breakfast with the family.

And you and I talk about this a lot, especially on our unsolved episodes. You know, at what point do parents really get worried? I mean, this kid is an adult. Right. Free to come and go, you know, do what he wants. But I think especially around like big holidays or big events, okay, he's not going to make the Christmas Eve dinner because apparently there's somebody showing up that he doesn't like. Yeah, he doesn't want to be around.

But it would be shocking. I think to the family, if he's, He's supposed to be there Christmas morning, such a big day. Yeah. And he doesn't show up. Yeah. If they haven't heard from him. Yes.

He's not there. This is not normal. The police found Kevin's car at a family dollar in Clayton Township. Inside was his phone, wallet, and some clothing. And man, that comes up in so many episodes. It's one thing to leave your car behind. Okay. Maybe something was wrong with the car.

Maybe you met somebody. and you got in the car with them. Right. But why would somebody leave their phone and wallet behind? That never, you know, really makes sense to me. Yeah, it's hard to justify that. On December 27th, the police received a tip from Michelle Myers. She figured out how to log in to Kevin's Grindr account

and shared the information with detectives. She also received a tip on social media. According to M Live, the tips, wrote, I have an idea. There's a guy routinely on this app. He keeps having guys escape from his basement. The cops keep not pressing charges because the guys who escape admit that they went in consensually.

Okay, I think when you hear about someone who keeps having guys escape from his basement. Yeah. That's somebody maybe, you know, we need to look into. I want to just interview him, see what he has to say. At the very least, yeah, absolutely. The tipster sent a screenshot of the man's profile. The police recognized him as 50-year-old Mark Latunsky, who lived in a rural area 20 miles outside Swartz Creek.

Latunsky was known to the authorities because two men had recently called the police to report him for chaining them up in his basement. Yeah, I think if these guys call you and say, hey man, you need to know about this guy. He chained me to the wall of his basement. I mean, luckily I got away, but if I didn't, I don't know what was going to happen. I get like a Pulp Fiction vibe. Yeah, but I would also agree.

You know, if you're the police and you have two different individuals calling in and saying this, that's got to raise the alarm bells, right? Oh, yeah. Mark Lutonski seemed like a normal. normal man. He was a divorced father of four who worked as a chemist until 2019. At one point, he made over $100,000 a year. So he was doing pretty good. Sure. According to M Live, Mark is the son of a local 4-H leader. Growing up, he raised beef cattle to show in competitions. And, you know, a lot of people might not be familiar with 4-H or that type of stuff. Where we live,

that was very common growing up. Sure was. Now, I lived into subdivision, so I wasn't into raising anything. I didn't have the room. But a lot of my friends kind of lived out in more rural parts of the village that we lived in. And they did raise all kinds of animals. Yeah. And even showed some of them in competitions or sold them later on.

Yeah, either joined 4H or you were part of the future farmers of America. Or you were like me and did neither. Or didn't either. Because I knew that I was not going to be a future farmer. Mark excelled in academics and was valedictorian of his 1987 high school class. Awesome. So he graduated about the same time you did. Yeah.

Now, I'm sure he was quite a bit younger. Two years later than I did. Yeah. But I'm sure he was still younger. Probably. A lot younger. But did he have the dual academic? awards like I did.

Would you have? I had the valedictorian. Uh-huh. Is that similar to the valedictorian? Exactly. I had both of those. Uh-huh. We had them both.

You had the valavictorian and the valedictorian. Somehow you were both the valedictorian and the, what is it called? The salute. Yeah. Salute. I don't know. Can we help you out there? The second one.

That's how smart you. I came in first and second. Yeah. Mark attended Central Michigan University from 1987 to 1991. He graduated with a master's degree in chemistry from Iowa State in 1995 and started his career as a chemist. So, I mean, this guy, I mean, you'd have to say, seems like he had it going on. Yeah. He had it all together.

Seems like it. That year, he sued the city of Ames, Iowa because he believed the $1 monthly charge. for storm sewers was unconstitutional. Strangely, he lost that suit. Can't believe you charged me a dollar to take this stormwater off my property. He also claimed that his father invented the question mark. His ex-wife, Emily Lutonski, told him live that Mark's friend set him up on a date with her. He was always a little bit awkward, according to her, but she liked him a lot.

He was very considerate and kind. She said, I fell in love with that side of him. he was very gentle. After a year of dating, the couple bought a home in Bennington Township and married in 2001. Their first child was born in 2003. Their other kids were born in 2004, 2007, in 2010. So, all right. Fairly quickly, they've got a good-sized family.

Yeah. They lived on five acres and raised goats, chickens, ducks, and rabbits. Mark was said to be busy, but a loving father. However, things changed. A couple of weeks after their youngest daughter was born in 2010, Mark began saying things that didn't make sense. Emily told him live, he believed that he wasn't actually his mother's son,

but that he was his mother's brother. And they were hiding that from him because there was some sort of family inheritance that he was going to inherit, but he had to do all the right things. He had to say all the right things. He believed that there were people watching him to make sure he did that. Okay.

Getting a little bizarre there. Well, we talked about all the mental health issues that Kevin struggled with. It's hard for me not to believe that there's a good chance that Mark was experiencing some mental health issues of his own. Emily convinced him to get help. And he did to appease her. He was prescribed medication, but stopped taking it almost immediately. Around that time, Mark admitted he was cheating on her with men he met online.

Emily recalled that he was always working. She said, and now looking back, I think, oh gosh, I was so stupid. I should have known. It's going to be impactful. Yeah, anytime that it is revealed that your partner's cheating on you, that's going to be tough. and I'm sure a lot of people have that same thought. You know, how is this going on, you know, all of these years or however long it was going on? And I had no idea.

I feel stupid. I'm sure a lot of people experienced that. They went to marriage counseling, but Mark's mental health continued to decline. He accused Emily of being part of a conspiracy with managers of an enormous trust fund. He was supposed to inherit it. So he really had. had it that there was all this money that he was set to inherit, but it's like everybody in his life was either conspiring against him or at the very least watching him to make sure

that he was doing all the right things in order to get this money. In 2010 and 2012, Mark was diagnosed with severe, recurrent, and chronic major depression with psychotic features, adjustment disorder with depression and anxiety, and paranoid schizophrenia, and borderline personality traits. That's a lot of items right there. It's a lot of different diagnoses for sure. Mark went to treatment centers twice in 2012 and once in 2013, but it didn't help. Doctors determined his conditions could be treated with medication, but he failed to take

it regularly. That's the problem, right? If he's not willing to take it and you can't monitor him to make sure he takes it, doesn't do any good. Yeah. Some of the medications they have are great, but they do require you to actually take them. And in a lot of cases, I think, take them every day, not skip, things like that. Emily wrote in court filings that when Mark failed to take his medication, he would watch torture slash horror movies, talk to himself, stay out all night, threaten to get rid of the children's animals,

claim their son wasn't his child, and failed to shower in shape. And I think Gibbs, if you're Emily, you're with this man that is the father of your four children, and you've been with him for, you know, many years,

this has got to be frightening stuff that's occurring. Yeah, they definitely feel like you would be alarmed. Mark falsely reported his wife to CPS for child neglect. She and the children moved out and she filed for divorce in May 2012. And I'm sure as much as she loved him, at a certain point, it just becomes too much. You know, you pass the point of no return. And maybe it was, you know, him calling CPS on his wife for child neglect.

I think that'd be pretty hard to push past if your partner did something like that to you. Emily was upset when Mark was granted unsupervised visits with the kids during one 2013 visit. Mark failed to return them at the scheduled time. Emily was fearful and called the police. Mark had taken the kids to a water park and refused to return them. He was arrested and charged with felony kidnapping, but the case was dismissed. when he was found mentally incompetent to stand trial in 2014. And it was almost four years before Mark saw his kids again.

And that doesn't surprise me. felony kidnapping, that's a very serious charge. But the mere fact that, you know, he's found mentally incompetent to stand trial, you would think means he's not getting visits. You would think. In August 2019, his wife filed a motion. to suspend his parenting time, which described his mental health history, the kidnapping case, his false claims to CPS, and his claim that she and her brother tried to poison his well water.

Wow. They do feel a little sorry for her. Yeah. Sounds like she went through quite a bit of hell. After the divorce was finalized, Mark remarried a man named Jamie Arnold. The marriage lasted from 2015 to September 2019. When they separated, Mark's former colleague told him like, his mental illness began impacting his job performance around 2012, saying he just thought everyone was out to get him. A paranoia.

Yeah, exactly. He worked for the same company for 12 years, but he was fired in February 2019 for refusing to take his medication. Mark believed his employer wanted him to put harmful chemicals in poor. products. His ex-wife noted that Mark's boss was patient and had given him many chances before firing him. And it sure sounds like it. You know, when you say that his job performance was impacted, and I'm assuming, you know, you add the word negatively in there, around 2012. What's seven years later before he gets fired? So by my way of thinking, his boss or whoever, you know, been over backwards to try to help him keep his job.

Yeah, it really gave him the opportunity. Mark tried to find work as a handyman but was unsuccessful. Instead, he decided to do escort work under the alias, Wilk Olikos Vilkas. He used the name Olikos on the grinder profile that communicated with Kevin Bacon. Interesting name. Yeah. I know another guy who has a lot of interesting names slash aliases that they use on probably all kinds of different profiles. Yeah.

I'm not saying you're on Grindr. I'm not saying you're not. It makes no difference to me either way. Are you saying I'm out on a bunch of different sites? It wouldn't shock me if you said anything. nothing would shock me about you and your aliases and your your Jason-born-type missions. I don't know what you have going on. Christina's like, what?

What sites are you on? I'm like, I'm on no sight. She's probably going to want to look at your computer based on what I just said. One of the five? Sorry about that. Now she's going to want to know where all your computers are. I was just joking. You're just digging yourself a bigger and bigger home.

It's true. And, you know, as we mentioned, two men had already reported Mark to the police for holding them against their will. On October 10, 2019, 48-year-old James Carlson called 911 to report that he escaped from Mark Lutonski's basement. He said he cut himself free with a butcher knife, stole his captors car keys, and ran down a three-mile stretch of road. He told police that he traveled from New York to Michigan to meet Mark for sex.

Yeah, that's a long car ride, bus ride, whatever ride. New York to Michigan for some sex. Seems like it. Yeah. So there's two 911 calls. I want to go ahead and play it and then we'll talk more about James Carlson. I'm trying to escape from some guy who had me chained up in his basement. You had you chained in his basement?

Where are you calling from? I don't know. You see you after me? Hey, Zee. I need you to go somewhere safe. If you can run up to somebody's house, are you in the road? I have six state troopers that aren't very far away.

I see the trooper right there. Jesus. Yeah. I broke out of the sift, and I need a ride. I'm on the end of this guy. I'm biased. He hit on me.

I know. We went out to the call. I dropped. We went to the sewer, had it stayed up in a basement. Okay. He obviously drugged me. I think this is a cop because that looks like an extra bright, right? So I am now putting this down. I am an armed. It is on the guardrail. Yes, sir, I am. I'm not armed. I'm just really happy to see you. All right. So he talked about being drugged, talked about being chained up or locked in the basement.

troopers found Carlson on the side of the road within 10 minutes of his call. He said his attacker was a stranger and declined to pursue charges. In 2023, M-Live provided additional context on this incident. According to the police report, Carlson was uncooperative. And after reevaluating the situation, he said he believed it was a form of sexual foreplay and not a case of false imprisonment. M Live reported that James Carlson met Mark Lutonski online. In July 2019, they chatted for the remainder of the year.

They discussed sexual fantasies about cannibalism. Okay. There's a lot of different conversations you can have with people online. Sure is. There's a lot of sexual fantasies you can talk about with people online. Yeah. When you start to get, mix sexual fantasies and cannibalism.

Well, now I think you ventured into a very strange area. Very strange. But I believe there's those type of conversations going on all the time. I'm sure there are. 30% of them probably had by you, but the other 70%, there's people all over the world having conversations. Having conversations.

But here, you know, in all seriousness, why would this guy James Carlson? kind of maybe change up his story a little bit. You know, I don't think I was falsely in prison. I think this was a little bit more of sexual foreplay. Well, if he doesn't want the media spotlight placed on him. Yeah, we don't know what his situation was. You know, you mentioned it.

It's a long drive from New York to Michigan for sex. Maybe he wasn't out to, you know, his friends and family back. in New York. I don't know the exact situation, but there was something that caused him to kind of change his story up somewhat. Yeah. And he could have felt threatened also. He could have. He could have been afraid of this guy. But it was around this time that they were chatting online, that Mark constructed a kill room in his basement with caged tamper resistant lights, a four inch thick insulated door and a sliding barn door that revealed the entrance. Carlson believed this room was built for him.

Carlson eventually agreed to come to Michigan to meet Mark in person. And that was when he was held captive in the basement. I think if anybody ever said, hey, I built this really cool. Let's just call it a kill room. You want to come over and check it out? Let me show you what I've done here. I'm not sure he said. had a kill room before the guy got there or not. But, you know, when you're talking about your

sexual fantasies with someone and they include cannibalism and then you make the conscious decision to go meet this person, man, you got to be on your guard. Yeah, you got to wonder if you're going to be the main course. Yeah. A second man escaped Mark's house on November 25th, 2009. The 29-year-old man who was covered in blood ran out of Mark's home and called 911. As Mark was chasing him, he told the operator, I'm trying to get away from some creepy guy. He had me tied up in his basement. He's after me. He ran to the home of Mark's neighbor, Michael Parks, who described the incident to Fox 2 Detroit. He said he's got purple hair. He's wearing a leather skirt and he's got a couple of belts across his chest.

The gentleman is grasping my arm with deathly fear screaming. Help me keep him away. Just screaming at the top of his lungs. He wants to hurt me. He wants to hurt me. Another vehicle pulls in my driveway and out comes who I now find out is marked. Wearing a leather skirt, belts across his chest, no shoes, no shirt on. His beard is braided.

He was a very odd looking gentleman. Sounds like it. Well, it also sounds like maybe a couple of guys that were role playing or yeah, into the BDSM or whatever you want to call it lifestyle. And things went wrong. And in the middle of that, this guy runs out of the house. Mark chases after him. But they're in their garb that they were wearing during their whatever.

was going on in that basement. Estate trooper came to the neighbor's house, but no charges were filed. State police said there was nothing they could do because the two victims did not want to press charges. Estate police spokesman also told the media that Mark was only chasing the man because he was wearing his leather kilt, which was expensive. He wanted that leather quilt back or skirt, as the other man called it. Right. I just need my kilt back, man.

man. Don't know why you ran off. It's okay if you don't want to, you know, continue our game. Engage and whatever we're doing. But I do think, you know, this is an issue that maybe, you know, has, has persisted throughout time. You have individuals who are gay who get preyed upon or who are threatened or harmed. And for whatever reason, they're reluctant to press, charges. And maybe it has something to do with their own situation. Yeah, I know. I really believe that, you know, that there's the fear of not being believed.

There's a fear of coming out the wrong way, the fear that the fact that they haven't told people in their life, you know, their family or work or whoever. Well, in the old days, there was the fear that it was illegal. And that as well. Actually, not that long ago. Yeah. It was illegal to be gay. So I was watching a show.

I think it was from the 70s. There was about a case in the 70s. It was set in California. And someone said it was illegal to touch another man. And I'm not even talking about sexually. Oh, yeah. It was illegal to touch another man. That's what the guy said.

And shake only, huh? Former Lieutenant David Kaiser said in January, 2020, nobody wanted the police there. Nobody wanted to file charges. A lot of times people have a professional life and a personal life. They don't want to intertwine the two. Their personal life is very secret, very protected. It's very true. Yeah, I think it's very well said. It might be, you know, just one of the reasons why these individuals didn't want to press charges. So we spent a little time talking about these two individuals, but I think it's relevant, right, to at least put it in perspective that this guy was on police radar, at least to some extent. Sure. You know,

the police are looking into the disappearance of Kevin Bacon and they decide that they're going to go to Mark's house. It was said that Mark didn't appear nervous when the police showed up to his house on December 27th, he let them in without complaint. Once inside, officers found Kevin's body hanging upside down from the basement ceiling. Mark admitted to stabbing Kevin to death, castrating him and committing acts of cannibalism. But he claimed Kevin asked him to end his life. Like that was, it's okay because he asked me to do it. And that wouldn't be the first time, right?

where a murderer has made that claim. Yes, I did it, but this person asked me to end their life, asked me to end their suffering. Could that happen? Well, sure, it could happen. But then you're going to have to explain how that kind of goes with him hanging upside down and you castrating him and eating parts of him. Did he ask you to do that as well? I'm going to say no.

That he didn't say to do any of it. But if he did, I don't think he wanted you to do that. So I did think it was strange. He just let these cops in, didn't put up a fight. He knew that Kevin's body was hanging in his basement. At first, he gave the name Wolk Olikos Vilkas, then said he was Edgar Thomas Hill from the Thomas clan of Wales. But he changed his name.

to Mark Latunsky for his own protection. Okay. Well, I've done that before in my name. I had to change it to Rex West for my own protection. But you know what police don't like is when you give them multiple names. Yeah, they don't like that. I get it. He has an explanation, but, you know, it just doesn't seem to make any sense.

Mark was charged with open murder, which would allow a. jury to determine the degree of homicide and mutilation of a body. On January 6, 2020, M-Live obtained court transcripts that included graphic crime scene details. Court documents stated that Kevin was stabbed in the back, his throat was cut, and his body hung by his ankles from the rafters of the ceiling. Mark Lutonski admitted to using a knife to cut off Kevin. testicles and eat them. I mean, Mark was a farmer, so I'm assuming he kind of knew how to perform a castration.

Yeah. I don't even know what you say to that. I mean, it does give off a little bit of silence of lambs vibes. Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure. That month, several media outlets spoke to Mark's husband, Jamie Arnold, who said he wasn't aware of Mark's mental illness until July 2000. when Mark was arrested for failing to pay child support.

He told ABC 12 that he left Mark around September 2019 because he was afraid of him and he exhibited delusional behavior. He said, I knew there was something not right. He would say that the neighbor was contaminating our water, that his children were not his children, his family was not his biological family, that I was some leader of some gray, green-eyed people that the world was going to turn upside down. You know, gray-green people. Isn't there an old song or something about a one-eyed, green-eyed purple people here? Did you say one-eyed green-eyed?

There was a, yeah, a purple people eater. I remember that song. Yeah. I don't know exactly how it goes. But, you know, here you have this guy's husband who I'm sure had to be very shocked. Oh, I would just see them. I'd be like, excuse me? What happened?

You cut off this guy's wavos. You ate them. Yeah. Boy, am I glad I got out of that relationship? And it sounds like he had a good reason to get out. From my way of thinking, you know, Mark's mental illness was manifesting, you know, itself in a number of different ways. At the very least, he was extremely delusional.

For sure. Jamie Arnold told W. NEM. He had no knowledge or involvement in the murder and was working to clear his name from social media allegations. And that is a shame, right? Obviously, if he had nothing to do with the dark side of Mark Lutonsky and people are lumping him in with him. Right. That's, going to be really tough. Sure it is. To see people saying horrible things about you on social media. And it's probably not going to be easy to clear, clear your name. Yeah.

Yeah. Arnold said, I didn't think he would ever hurt me in that type of capacity. I mean, he was my husband. I cared for him. I loved him. I never thought he was capable of such a horrendous crime. And whoever does think, you know, when you're in a relationship with someone whom you love, whoever thinks that this person is capable of doing what Mark Lutonski did.

Yeah. I'm sure Dennis Rader's wife never thought. you could do what he did. No. Or the ice band's wife. No, I just don't think that you could entertain those thoughts and then continue on with the relationship. Exactly. If you truly thought that your loved one was capable of that, I think you're looking for the exit.

Yeah, I'm not going to lay down next to him in bed and close my eyes. No, not at all. Or at the very least, I'm going to be wearing some ironclad jockeys. Arnold noted that he learned about the November 2019 incident from reporters after Kevin's body was found. He was asked by a WNEM reporter. Police said that in that incident a man reported another man being there. That man wasn't you? Arnold replied, no, that was not me.

Arnold was asked if he witnessed any disturbing behavior from Mark before he moved out of their shared home in September. he responded for him to say he is someone else. He had this theory that his family wasn't his family, that he was not a Latunsky, and that he was somebody else. And this whole connection with the Vikings, that his grandmother was really his mother, I don't know. There's so many crazy accusations that after a while, you just start tuning things out for your own sanity.

I get that, right? I'm sure he had to know that. that something a little strange was going on. But did he think this guy was dangerous? It sounds like he didn't. And he basically said, you know, I just kind of tuned it out. I just let him rant and rave and... Kind of like when I come here sometime,

it's like go back a year when you thought you were King Ferguson. And you're like, call me King. I'm like, I'm not going to call you King. You're not the King. But eventually I'm like, you know what? It's easier if I just go along with it. Right. I'm like, hey, King, I'm here.

How's it going? Appreciate that. Yeah. Arnold acknowledged that even though Mark moved out, they still spoke several times a week. Arnold initially said he last saw Mark on Christmas Day and nothing seemed wrong. However, later in his interview, he said he gave Mark a ride home on December 27th, but said he didn't go into the house. And Kevin's body was found just hours later.

Arnold was asked if he thought Mark had committed murder before. He answered, given the evidence at hand, I think it could very well be possible, considering that he told somebody that I myself could come up missing. And I always think that. Yeah, sure. It's like, do you just wake up one morning and say, you know, I am going to kill this person? I'm going to hang them upside down. I'm going to cut off their testicles.

and I'm going to eat them. Yeah, technically, you could. But does it make it seem like more likely you've had some practice? You've done this before. Yeah, potentially. I mean, you always have to have your first, right? That is true. Yeah.

Sounds terrible saying that. It does, but there is a first time for everything. On January 8th, 2020, Mark entered Ann and Sandy plea, and the judge ordered a competency test. his public defender said per ABC 12, he believes he's named someone else. He believes he's from a rural family out of Wales. The Thomas claim. In February 2020, Mark was briefly hospitalized.

After being found unresponsive during a routine cell check, he had not been eating for a period of time. On February 27th, the judge deemed Mark unfit for trial and ordered him to be transferred to a psychiatric facility. the case was put on hold while he received treatment. And with everything that we've said about Mark Latunsky and others have said about him, he is either putting on one hell of an elaborate act or he really is experiencing some very serious mental health issues. And he was diagnosed with a number of different mental health issues. So it doesn't surprise me.

me at all that he was deemed unfit for trial. In June 2020, James Carlson filed a lawsuit against Mark, alleging he tied him down in his home and held him captive in his basement after he traveled from New York to engage in consensual sex. According to the suit, what Mr. Carlson did not expect is that during his stay, defendant Latunsky would end up chaining him down in his basement and holding him captive. After he thought defendant Litonski had fallen asleep, Mr. Carlson terrified, cut himself loose using a butcher knife, and ran down the street in the middle of nowhere,

in order to call the police. Yeah, I think if you went over there for some fun in games, maybe, the next thing you found out that you wake up and you've been shackled to the wall. Illegally detained? Yeah, I think it's going to change your perspective. Carlson claimed he met Mark's husband on Facebook. and the husband introduced him to Mark. Mark picked him up at a bus stop on October 10th, 2019. And once they arrived at the house, he was informed Mark's husband had moved out.

And I thought that was a really strange kind of set of circumstances. It almost makes it seem, I'm not alleging this, but it almost makes it seem as though Mark's husband had a little bit to do was setting all of this up. Now, maybe he had no idea what was ultimately going to happen. Yeah. But why are you setting your ex up with someone? It seems strange. Or could you say that maybe Mark had another profile of his husband to help bait people in. And did the whole thing himself? Yeah. Yeah. Could be. You can make the argument that a person would be. more apt to to travel to someone's home that they didn't know if they thought they were married. Yes.

And that the husband was okay with it. John Marco, James Carlson's lawyer told the Rolling Stone that after he escaped, officers dropped James off at a gas station with no money and no way to get home and did not make any further inquiries into the incident. The lawyer suggested that if James were not a gay man, the situation would have been treated differently. Marco said there should have been further investigation. There should have been further follow-up. Just some basic police work and some basic follow-up, I think, could have changed this whole situation. And Mr. Bacon might be alive. There's probably some truth behind that.

There is. But, you know, you do have to remember that both of these individuals. right Carlson and the other man who called 911 kind of changed their stories a little bit I think Carlson said later on that it was just sexual foreplay he wasn't really detained now we don't know the reasoning behind that right we speculated on what the reason might be but you know is is that what caused the police to just kind of drop it you're not pressing charges now you're not even saying that there was an illegal legal act that took place. So what is there to do? Right. But could you go at least talk to the guy?

I think they could have. Yeah. Now, would that have changed anything with Mark, knowing his mental state? I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. Kevin's friends agreed with John Marco. Michelle Myers told Rolling Stone, how come Latunsky wasn't questioned then? Is it because it's just gay guys doing stuff in a basement? what would have happened if a girl was chained in the basement and ran out of there. Even if she said, don't worry about it, maybe the police would have investigated it more. I think she made a good point. No, I think there is a good point there. Now, we're not talking about 20, 30 years ago.

This is only about five years ago, but still, was there something on the part of the police that said, you know, this is just a couple of gay guys doing their thing. Maybe it got out of hand, but we're really not going to check in on it because of that fact. And I think some people have made that argument and it could be correct. I don't know. In 2003, M Live reported that Mark texted James Carlson in the early hours of December 25th. I killed Kevin Bacon. Kevin Bacon is my heroes. The text was accompanied by a photo of food in a skillet. So really messed up there. Yeah, because we can imagine what type of food it is. Prosecutor said,

Heroes is a term assigned to a cannibals victim. Carlson responded, I hope you enjoy them. Can I see more picks of my room? That's messed up. It is. And it definitely makes it seem as though, you know, this Carlson guy was into some of these same things.

right cannibalism and you know he's asking for picks of his room as though he knows about it he knows what it's for and i thought this was so strange can i see picks of my room this is a man who said he escaped from mark's basement and then it also appears as though he's definitely okay with the cannibalism aspect. And he's okay with the fact that this guy is dead. On October 5th, 2020, Mark was declared competent for trial.

On October 23rd, the judge found there was enough evidence for Mark to stand trial. The defense asked the judge to add a charge of assisted suicide because the evidence showed Kevin worked with Mark to end his life, but the judge denied the request.

At the hearing, MSP detective James Moore described Mark's confession to the court, Detective Moore said none of Kevin's messages suggested he wanted Mark to kill him and he even asked for reassurance he would be safe. According to M Live,

Kevin told Mark he was interested in a sexual scenario where he would have a complete loss of control. They agreed that Mark would make Kevin feel afraid to induce a fight or flight response, they agreed once the scene is over, you are returned. Kevin asked, you are going to keep me safe, right? Mark replied, I will show you how I'm going to transport you and let you determine if I am

trustworthy. And to me, this is a very scary situation. When you're giving over complete control to someone, well, how much more vulnerable can you be? Gibbs, especially if you don't know it, but ultimately you're giving that type of control to a killer. Yeah, really scary. Scary stuff. During his interview on December 28th, Mark described the sexual fantasy. He claimed Kevin asked for.

They met at the family dollar parking lot in Clayton Township, where Kevin's vehicle was found. Kevin removed his clothing and put on a blindfold, earmuffs, ankle restraint, and wrist restraints. Lutonski drove to his home with Kevin in the back of his van, covered with a blanket. After their sexual encounter, which was consensual, according to Mark, he and Kevin talked about how they could make his body disappear. Kevin told him he was suicidal in the past. Now, a very important point to make is that this is all coming from Mark. Yeah, it's one-sided. It's one-sided. Kevin Bacon can't tell his side of the story, but even if you believe Mark, the point at which he says they started to talk about how they could make Kevin's body disappear. That really starts to kind of veer off the path for me.

Could this guy have wanted a scenario as Mark described where he was restrained, he was blindfolded, all of that? could they have had consensual sex? Yeah, possible. But then how does the conversation then veer to, well, how do we get rid of your body? Right. I don't want you to get rid of my body. Exactly.

Whoever said I wanted you to get rid of my body. That's where it just seems to be very strange. Mark stabbed Kevin in the back of the neck. When he realized Kevin wasn't dead, he slid his throat because he didn't want him to suffer. Their agreement was that he would kill Kevin and use his body. He would use parts of his body to grow plants and make jerky out of his muscles. And this use of the word agreement is throwing me for a loop here. Sure it is.

So you're telling me that this guy, Kevin Bacon, during the conversations he had with Mark, was up for being killed and then his body being used to. grow plants and be turned into jerky. I'm not saying it's completely out of the realm of possibility. It just doesn't sound very believable to me. Yeah. It's pretty hard to swallow. A few days after the murder, the United States Postal Service intercepted a package for Mark

that contained a dehydrator. Well, clearly Mark was ready to move forward with the, jerky aspect. Because that is how you make jerky. Yeah, one of the ways. What's the other way? Build a nice little fire, put the strips on a log.

Well, you're still dehydrating it. Yeah, but you're just not using a dehydrate. Okay, yeah, I got you. Kevin's father, Carl Bacon, told him life. I had a hard time believing Kevin would have entered into a suicide pack with anyone. He was planning on going back to school in January. He had just started a new. job. And so things were starting to look up for him and the situation that put him in the hospital

in November that he put behind him. But I just wonder Gibbs had Kevin told Mark about some of his issues. And therefore once caught, Mark kind of used that in his defense. Yeah, I think he exploited those issues. Over a year later, in April, two, 2022, a new psychological evaluation was submitted declaring Mark competent to stand trial. His attorney felt the evaluation was necessary because Mark's status deteriorated in recent communications. And that doesn't surprise me. I can't imagine it getting better. No.

At a May hearing, the doctor who assessed him testified per M live. He was much less preoccupied with misbelief and was able to engage in a given and take conversation with me and then sustain that for a longer period of time discussing his options. Mark was also able to ascertain the difference between pleading guilty and not guilty and other options available to him. On September 22nd, 2022, Mark Latunsky pleaded guilty to open murder and mutilation of a body just three weeks before his scheduled trial. He made the plea against his attorney's recommendation.

His lawyers were interested in presenting an insanity defense at trial. I think his defense team could have went that route and maybe have been successful. Well, I'm sure they thought they had a chance. But it's not the first time we've heard of this, right? That somebody just days, weeks before their trial is set to commence, they plead guilty. Why is that? Because they know they're going to be found guilty. They don't want to go through the hassle of the trial.

They don't want to have to talk about certain things. Spare of the victim's family. According to them, a lot of times they say that. I don't believe it very often. His attorney, Mark Chardier, said in court, per M-Live, while this is not an outcome that defense attorney, Mr. Krause and I think is in Mr. Lutonski's best interest, we do have to follow his wishes. We have discussed this matter and consistently he's been very clear, more than once multiple times, on his choice and on his

reasoning. A later hearing was scheduled for the judge to determine the degree of murder for sentencing. On October 19, 2002, the judge ruled that Mark was guilty of first degree murder, which comes with a mandatory life sentence without parole. Judge Matthew Stewart said as quoted by CBS. The court finds that this is a crime of cold calculation. Kevin Bacon's death was Mark Lutonsky's design. And it's hard to argue with that statement. Now, I think the big thing here is that he was found competent to stand truck.

Yes, could his defense team have mounted an insanity defense? Sure, they could have. by and large, I don't think the success rate of those is very high. Sure. So most likely, he was going to be convicted. On December 15th, 2022, Mark Lutonsky was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole for murder and 11 to 120 months for mutilation of a body. Kevin's family has emphasized that Mark Lutonski's claims of a suicide pact are untrue. Although Kevin did have a history of mental health struggles,

he was in a better place at the time of his death and was making plans for the future. Mark Lutonski had a history of predatory behavior towards men. He met online. Kevin was unaware of this when he connected with Mark on the dating app. And that's not something you're going to put in your dating app profile. Yeah, I highly doubt that. I routinely bring men down to my basement and. chain them up. And a couple of times they've gotten away.

Probably not going to get the responses that you would get if you left that out. Kevin's father said after the hearing in October per Fox 2, Detroit, it's gut-wrenching to hear the details and we're just beside ourselves. What was released Monday shows that Kevin had a dark side. He obviously got into something that he wasn't prepared for. It would be rough to hear that about your child. Yeah. Yeah, I think it would be. rough for any family. Regardless of what someone's sexual orientation is, some people have a dark side when it comes to whatever they're into. Sure. Some people like to choke themselves

with belts. Yeah. Which has led to some actually pretty famous people dying in like the closets of hotel rooms. People are into all kinds of stuff. They are. Now, what have I always said? If you're not hurting anyone else, I say pour it on. That's what you've always told me. And it seems you've lived by that or taken that to heart. But if you're Kevin's father and it's coming out that, okay, most likely your son was into, you know, some of this BDSM type stuff and I guess that's what he's calling the dark side.

Sure. That would be tough to hear. But as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, I mean, obviously there's a lot going on. I do think that this Mark Lutonski was a predator. You know, these two guys escaped from his dungeon, we'll call it. Well, what happens to these two guys if they don't? Do they end up, you know, with the same fate as Kevin Bacon did? Possibly.

and, you know, that dovetails into the obvious question, which is, you know, how many more victims could this guy have? Could have been a lot more. It could have been. It could be that Kevin Bacon was his first murder. I don't know. I never know in some of these situations. But also keep thinking about what Michelle said, right?

If that was a woman that ran up to the police and said, I've been chained and this guy's, basement, I think they would have went to the house. I agree. And found themselves inside that house. I agree. Yeah, I agree. And it's a sad commentary. You go back to like Jeffrey Dahmer. And obviously, that was many, many years ago. You can draw some of the, some similar parallels. Right. One of his victims ran out in the middle of the street. True. And Dahmer goes out and is able to kind of talk the police. And he's able to kind of talk the police into, ah, he just had too much to drink and, and they let him take this guy back. And we know what happened after that?

Yeah. Yeah, I kind of agree with you. I feel like if it was a woman and she said, well, you know, got out of hand, I don't really want to press charges, but she did say she was chained up in the basement. I think they would have went and checked on it. Yeah, we need to kind of check on this guy. See what's going on over there. I really do.

But, you know, the way that Mark killed Kevin. And obviously what he did to his body afterwards, it's gruesome. Sure it is. I mean, eating the man's testicles after you cut them off and then kind of claiming that Kevin wanted him to do it. Kevin wanted to die. And boasting about it. Yeah. I mean, sending a picture of a frying pan with meat in it.

To a guy who had already escaped his dungeon. I'm still unclear about that part. But I feel like it's a real slap in the face of the family. I'm sure they feel that way too, that this guy came out and said, no, I didn't murder your son. He wanted me to kill him. Yeah. And so I obliged. And then I just happened to, you know, hang him upside down, cut off parts of him, eat them.

And also, you know, obviously, once they deliver my dehydrator, then I'm going to. into full production mode. Right. And, you know, like we said, for the family, that's got to be just really tough to take. Oh, so disturbed. But that's it for our episode on Mark Lutonsky. He's where he needs to be. He'll die in prison and should.

But we've got some voicemails, Gibbs. You want to check those out? Let's hear him. Hi. My name's Michaela, formerly known as Dixie Normas. Anyways, I just want to say that I love y'all. listened to y'all for a long time. Me and my mom made a joke about the Dixie Norvus waiting for y'all to say it. So thank you for being a good sport. You have no idea how hard we and my mom

have laughed. Anyways, I was just listening to y'all's Patreon, and I don't know if I'm just slow or what, but I just realized that T-Cat means true crime all the time. I don't know how that just clicked, but I was always so confused of why y'all keep saying T-Cat. T-Cat. And I looked it up and I was like, is it like an extra like thing, like Patreon or what is it? And then I literally just had the epiphany that is y'all's podcast name. Anyways, I just want to like to all know that. And yep, so keep doing what y'all are doing.

And I think everyone always says, keep your own time ticket. Okay. Bye. Wait. What? T-Cat? Is the initials of the podcast? Yes.

Really? But you know what? I guarantee you she's not the only one that doesn't realize that. Really? Because it's not like we say it all the time. That's true. We say T-Cat. We say true crime all the time.

We don't say T-Cat is short for true crime all-time. We don't go T-C-A-T-T. No, sometimes I do in the ads. Do you? Yeah. Yeah. Because some people spell it T-C-C-A-T. Yes.

T-Cat. But that's not it. No, because it's all. the time. That's right. I'll be able to lay it down the right way. But I got a kick out of her and her mom. You know, probably sitting around brainstorming. You know, what name can we come up with that is really going to cause them issues with trying to say?

If they can say that, you know, that one word. Hi, guys. I love your podcast. This is Carlos from Washington, originally Colorado, but I live in Washington now. Anyway, hi, you guys are the best. I have to call. I'm sick of every money being team giving. I am team Fergie all the way.

Come on, y'all. Fergie's awesome too. Anyway, thank you for what you do. You guys are awesome. Keep your head on swivel. Bye. All right. Thank you so much.

I mean, I've, you know, I've been thinking that. I don't say it out loud very often. You've got so many Team Fergie. I do. I do. You know, and people make more out of it than what it is. I don't know how we even got started joking around about it, but people take it seriously.

They should. But it's okay. It's okay that you have more fans than me. It's the way I've designed your persona. Or maybe just more of my call in. It could be. You know, it could be. I don't know.

Because they feel like they need. need to defend you. They feel like... I do need defend it. They feel like you need their support. I do need their support. More than I do. I don't know why. No, we love all of you. Whoever you root for as long as you listen, that's all that matters. You're awesome, no matter if you like for a guy or not. All right, everyone. That is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.