True Crime All The Time - Martin Bryant Pt2

Episode Date: December 7, 2020

In April of 1996, Martin Bryant perpetrated an unimaginable mass shooting in Port Arthur, Tasmania that shocked Australia and the world. Bryant's actions left 35 dead and many people wounded. It caused changes in Australia's gun laws, and left many pointing the finger at agencies they felt could have stopped Bryant at different points in time.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Martin Bryant and the Port Arthur massacre. In this second and final episode, we'll focus on the events of that dreadful day. We'll also discuss the changes in Australian gun law that resulted and the conspiracy theories that have cropped over the years. One of the biggest questions that is difficult to answer is, what was Bryant's exact reason for committing the mass shooting?You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 21 of the true crime all the time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, what is going on with you, brother? Hey man, I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing great, especially when I hear that you're doing well. And I think that's the theme. You continue to get better and better on your way back to 100%. Yeah, almost there, man. Almost there. Yeah. Which is amazing. Yeah, feels good. So we got a lot wrapped up in this episode. We do. So we got to get into it.

Before that, let's give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Willie and Ali Marbar jumped out of our highest level. Hey, Willie and Ali. Alia Barker jumped out of our highest level. Thank you. Alia. Jill Perrin.

What's going on? Perrin. Rhonda Wilkinson Bouvier. Oh, Wilkinson Bouvier. Mary Jean Rieke. Jumpt out of our highest level. Hey, Mary Jean. Ruth.

Good old Ruth. Kenriette Cole. Hey, Kenriette. John Wayne jumped out way higher than our highest level. Well, how you doing, pilgrim? Chelsea Gilligan. Hey, Chelsea. Amy Anderson jumped out of our highest level.

What's going on, Amy? Greg Johnston jumped out of our highest level. Thank you, Greg. We had Shauna Murphy. Thanks, Shana. Canadian cater tot. Really? Got some cater tot in the house.

Sarah Archer. What's going on, Sarah? Megan Priscilla. Hey, Megan. Becky Schmidt. Well, thank you, Becca. Sarah Brown. Hey, Sarah.

Kim Eldridge. Well, thank you, Kim. Well, Amy Pierce. Hey, what's going on, Amy? Debbie jumped out of our highest low. Debbie, thank you. And Eugene Mullinix jumped out of our highest low. Got like a little Molinex.

So we appreciate all that new support. Yeah. And then we jump into the vault, Gibbs. Sure. This week, we selected Carolyn YK. Well, thank you, Carolyn. Been with us a long time. We appreciate the new.

support, the continued support. Sure do. We had some great PayPal donations as well. Julie Rassio-Teli. Rosseoletli. Ressio-Lelly. I'm going to go with Rosei-Leli. Oh, okay.

You're just going to leave out four or five different letters. Yeah. She actually sent in a very sizable donation. John Cremant. Hey, John. Mary Weirzma. What's going on, Weirzma? And Ruthie's Little Things.

Well, Ruthie, we appreciate all of you, even your little things. It's always the little things that count. Yeah. So Gibbs right now on True Crime All the Time Unsolved, we're headed to New York to talk about the disappearance of Colin Gillis. This is a case of a college student. Yeah. Comes home because of one of those, you know, spring break. Hey, we're home for spring break parties.

Sure. And maybe a keg was there. Maybe. or two and he goes missing. Yep. And we'll get into all the wise wares, who's as we do on unsolved. Yeah. But like I said, we're jam packed today. So I got to ask it. Gibbs, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am. We're wrapping up our coverage of Martin Bryant and the Port Arthur massacre. And we got a lot to get into. Now, this is part two so i don't suggest starting here you can but what you'll miss is bryant's background

yeah the lead up the lead up us talking about his mental capacity all of that but we'll jump straight to april 28th 1996 martin bryant woke up that morning at 6 a m and his girlfriend petra later told the police that this was very strange martin never got up this early In fact, she said he never set his alarm clock because Gibbs, he didn't have a reason to set an alarm clock. Right. He had nothing that he really had to do at any certain time. This was a man with few commitments. Right.

Right. He had a bunch of money. Every day's a Saturday? Yes. It was like every day's a Saturday. Yeah. Petra left the house around 8 a.m. And it seems as though she was under the impression that Mark,

Martin was going surfing. And we're going to hear that quite a bit. Several witnesses who met Martin later that day also said he told them he was going surfing. Police know that Bryant left his home at 9.47 a.m. Because they later retrieved the time at which he set his alarm system. So he's the last one out the door. He puts the alarm on. Bam.

Later on, the police can go back and, you know, figure out what time that occurred. Right. He left his home driving his yellow Volvo with a surfboard attached to the roof. And that's another thing that just a ton of witnesses would come out later and say is that, yeah, number one, they saw the Volvo, but they remember seeing this surfboard attached to the roof. Remember when you used to surf? I don't. Because I never have because you know I don't like the ocean. I know.

You hate that ocean. Now, I did surf one time at the water park down the road that has the, what do you? infinite endless wave pool oh yeah yeah i've tried that before how would that go it was all right yeah so didn't get the edge for it no my coordination is not what it was when i was let's say in my late teens uh to early 20s wow so no no shoot in the barrel or whatever they call it no just trying not to bust my you know what yeah now martin took with him three semi-automatic weapons he had the ar 10 the AR-15 and a shotgun. He also had with him thousands of rounds of ammunition.

And gives, I think most people know this, but I want to clarify, I want to be clear with everyone what semi-automatic means in case someone doesn't know. Every time you pull the trigger, a shot is fired, right, with a semi-automatic gun. Right. So the gun fires as fast as your finger can pull that trigger. Yeah. And if you think about it and you can just do it right in front of you, you can pull that index finger back very quickly. Right.

And, you know, that's why a lot of people always talk about, okay, well, it's not an automatic weapon, right? Automatic, you just hold it down and bullet spray everywhere. Yeah. But you can fire a semi-automatic weapon very rapidly. Yeah. And a lot of people can. So what's the difference between an AR-10 and AR-5? 15. So the AR 15 fires a 223 round or 556. That's kind of what they call the NATO round. Right.

The AR 10 is a bit bigger. It's a 308 round. So they're very similar. They look similar. I think, you know, the 10 just fires a bigger bullet. The shotgun was a 12 gate. Now, a lot of people don't think about shotguns as being semi-automatic, but they can be, right? This is not. You know, the pump shotgun that your grandfather had. Right. There are a lot of semi-automatic shotguns. People use them to hunt birds and different things. They're used in shooting competitions quite a bit.

So you can even add a magazine to those shotguns in some cases. Yeah, there are some that are made to hold a magazine, which can hold quite a number of shells. But speaking of magazines, for each of the rifles, Martin had the standard 30 round magazines. But Gibbs, he did something that you often see in movies. He fashioned them together,

probably with some kind of very strong tape or adhesive, so that they were joined but facing the opposite way. Have you ever seen this in movies? Basically, what it does is you put the magazine in the rifle. Right. Once you've fired all of those shots, instead of reaching for another magazine on your person or in somewhere else,

all you do is flip it around. Yeah. And you can very quickly insert another 30 rounds. Yeah. And you see it quite a bit in movies. I'm surprised you haven't seen it. As many movies as you watch. I've seen a lot of movies.

I know what you're talking about. Now you explained it, though. He had his bag with him that we talked about at the end of episode one. But he also took two sets of hands. handcuffs, some rope, a hunting knife, and several containers of gas. So to me, Gives, I think when you look at this, it leaves little doubt that he was planning something of terrible proportions. I mean, you don't leave the house in the morning with three semi-automatic weapons, handcuffs, a knife, and, you know, gasoline to go to work. Well, you might. Most people do not.

Your average Joe. Yes. Your average Joe does not. I mean, if you're a soldier of fortune, maybe. As Martin Bryant drove to Port Arthur that morning, he made several stops at businesses along the way. And these were places that he had visited in the past. He made some small purchases at these different shops.

I think what's important is that, you know, one business owner said Martin was carrying a large bag with him. that seemed very odd. The other thing that was strange was that some of these individuals said his demeanor was very different. You and I talked about it in episode one. Martin had a habit of going into places trying to chat people up. Yeah.

He was always looking for a conversation. Desperately. It was said on this day, he wasn't chatty at all. He was much more reserved than what people. would have referred to him back in the day as the usual silly Martin, right? He wasn't acting up. He was kind of stoic. Right. As if I've got something going on, I don't have time to act a fool with you or, you know, whatever you want to say. But I think the key thing is these were people that had had experience with him. They knew what he was like on a daily basis. And on this day,

he was much, much different. Which looking back, they're going to realize. why in that moment though you don't realize what's going on but they look back and say oh yeah now we know why yeah and i think that happens in a lot of cases right you know in the moment a lot of things don't mean anything because there's no context to it right it's just oh he might be having a bad day or this or that once you find out the context that goes along with it it's very easy to say oh well no wonder he was acting this way or that way. Martin Bryant had a destination in mind, and we know that it's going to be Port Arthur, but his first stop was at a B&B named Seescape, owned by David and Sally Martin, and this

was no random destination. Many have reported that Bryant held a serious grudge against the Martins, stemming from a business deal that he and his father had with them. And there's some gray area here about this business deal. You know, apparently his father and maybe at some point even Martin was involved. And they wanted to buy a piece of property from the Martins, but they wouldn't sell. Yeah. And there have been some suggestions that Martin felt as though this business deal gone bad contributed to his father's suicide.

That is, of course, if Martin didn't have anything to do with his father's death. Yeah. And that's a big if. right? We talked quite a bit about that in episode one. So he arrived at Seescape somewhere around noon. He encountered David and Sally Martin and he killed them both. It happened to be David Martin's birthday. Police interviewed a couple of people later who said they heard a series of shots and they estimated the time to be somewhere between 12 and 1230. Interestingly, though, there were no guests at the time this happened. I believe the last guest had left that day around 11 a.m.

Now, I'm not saying the B&B was empty. It just, you know, maybe people had gone out to do whatever it is they wanted to do. But after he killed the Martins, Bryant took the keys to the B&B, locked the place up and left. But outside, he encountered a couple. And, you know, this is a couple who had just driven up. They wanted to check the place out. They thought, okay, this might be a cool place to stay. They talked to Martin Bryant and asked him, I guess they thought he worked there or something, if they could see the place. Yeah.

And apparently he said, no, my mother and father are out right now. But this couple later described him to police as, you know, unbelievably agitated. They said he was waving his hands, making these wild gestures as he talked. Well, luckily they got the heck out of there. Well, and who wouldn't? And looking back, they're probably like, oh, my gosh. Now, if you see the pictures of Martin Bryant. Yeah.

The one thing that always jumps out at me is you wouldn't look at his face and say, oh, my gosh, that's a scary guy. Right. But he had that really long, blonde hair, and it always seemed to be wild. Yeah. And it made him look a little wild, I always think. Is it because you are jealous of the long hair? That's part of it. Okay.

It's part of it. All right. I just want to make sure. But I do think if you saw him and he's gesturing wildly and acting in this very, you know, agitated manner, you'd be like, hey, honey, back up the Volvo. Yeah. Turn around. Let's get out of here. Let's get the heck out of Dodge.

Yeah. When I saw the pictures I've seen of him, he definitely has a bizarre. look about it. Yeah. Well, and we're going to talk about that and some of the pictures that the media used, they took some heat, maybe for some possible enhancements to some of these pictures. We'll talk about that later on. Remember when you used to enhance your pictures?

Yeah. Yeah. I'm asked for a whole different thing. Online to make myself look better. Sure. Well, who doesn't do that? A couple filters here and there. Filters.

Yeah. So after this incident, Martin drove into Port Arthur. and he actually conversed with a number of people in and around the area. Gibson was like, you know, he stopped. He chatted people up. He told a number of people that he was going surfing. He had no real reason to do that. It kind of strikes me as odd other than the fact that he did like to strike up conversations.

Or was he trying to tell as many people as he could that he was going surfing because he knew what he was about ready to do. he thought that was going to give him some type of alibi. Right. Maybe. I don't know. There's my surfboard on top of my Volvo. I don't know if Martin Bryant was smart enough to think those types of things through all the way. But maybe in his mind, that was going to be his alibi.

He eventually parked his car and headed to the Broad Arrow Cafe. He ordered quite a bit of food. And I read in a couple different places, Gibbs, that it was so. much food that people had to open the door for him and they actually were commenting on how much food he had. And his comeback was that he'd been surfing. He had worked up this great big appetite. I'm so hungry. I've been surfing all day. Yeah. Man, hitting those waves. I got to eat. So he sat outside and, you know, started eating his food. People later said that he was mumbling a lot while he ate. He appeared nervous. He kept scanning the area looking around.

That mumbling why you eat always makes me nervous. When I see people doing that at a restaurant or a bar, I try to sit as far as way as possible. What about the mumbling when you're not eating? Because I don't think that's a great sign either if you're just mumbling to yourself. If you've got to do it while you're eating, it just makes it that much more worse. All right. Yeah, I'll give you that. I mean, that's basically what he was doing. Yeah. He was also apparently waving his arms around frantically as if he was trying to swat something in the air away from him.

You know, I've done that before where like a little gnats in front of my face. It won't leave me alone. I'm doing that. But you know the people around, you don't see that. So I'm just saying, I know I've looked weird to people because I've done that. Would you be waving both your arms frantically in the air over? a gnat? If there's multiple nats. If it's a, like a nat attack. I'm not sure this was a nat situation. No, I think it was, I'm going to go out and say. Something a little bit different.

Yes. I don't think it was the same experiences that you've had because at the same time, he was making a bunch of racially insensitive remarks about different groups of people. Wow. And he's eating by himself, right? It's not like he has a companion. He's mumbling. He's talking out loud, making these very strange comments. You have to picture it all in its entirety and say, yeah, that sounds like it would have been a pretty odd sight. Yeah, I think I would have said, you know what, let's get our stuff to go and just get out of here. I wouldn't want to sit out there. Eat and walk. I'd have to get my stuff and get out of her. I think it to go. Yeah. And again, everybody's a little different. We have the benefit of knowing what's about to happen. So we're probably

putting more into this than what those people would have done. Oh, absolutely. At the cafe that day. Yeah, they would have viewed it as odd, but nothing probably to be concerned about. Unfortunately, we know there were, there's a lot that they should have been concerned about. Right. Because when Martin was done eating, he walked inside the cafe and he put his bag up on a table. So this was somewhere around 1.30 p.m. He opened up the bag. And he opened up the bag. And, he opened up the bag. And, And he took out his AR-15. And Gibbs, he, then he just opened fire on the people inside the cafe. And this was not a big place.

The tables were very close together. So you had a lot of people. Yeah. Kind of concentrated in a very small area close together. How horrific. Yeah, I can't even imagine what it must have been like inside that cafe. you know, the noise level as the shots from this rifle rang out, the confusion, as people tried to process and figure out what was going on, you know, I think to a lot of people,

it's not like you hear something and you see something or you see something. And it, everything really crystallizes automatically, right? For a lot of people, it takes a little while. Yeah. to really process and understand what's going on. And unfortunately, we know in this situation, a lot of carnage happens in a very short amount of time. Yeah. Bryant killed 20 people inside the cafe and he wounded many others. And Gibbs, he didn't care who he killed. No, he did not.

Men, women, and even children. One stat that I saw said that he fired 29. shots inside the cafe in about two to three minutes. Yeah. 29 shots fired killing 20 people. Now, police would say later that many of these shots were taking at very close range, that he just walked up to people, put the gun essentially right on them. Yeah.

And fired. You know, 29 shots in two to three minutes is not that hard to achieve. No, it might sound like a lot to some, but if you really broke it down, it's not. No. It's really not at all. The superintendent of the Hobart police later told the media, I have never been involved in war, but I don't imagine that it gets much worse than that room. Some people were dead on the floor. Others were dead at the tables looking as if they were still enjoying their lunch with their meals still in front of them. But they were dead. I mean, just horrific. It is. And it's one of those things that you can picture in your mind. Now,

it's not a good picture. It's not something you want to dwell on because it'll haunt you. And one thing I have to mention, if I haven't already, is that, you know, Port Arthur, it's a tourist attraction type of place. So some people later said that when they heard the shots, they thought it was some type of historical reenactment. Yeah. And some of them actually moved towards the gunshots. Because they thought maybe they were missing out on a show or something. Yeah. Yeah.

I guess Port Arthur was an old penal colony back in the day and then kind of turned into a tourist attraction. Martin Bryant exited the cafe and he began firing at people outside. He killed four people outside of the cafe, three who were just standing up. outside and one person who was sitting on a tour bus. And I think that kind of tells you about the type of place we're talking about, right? They were busing people in. They would get off. They would see the attractions and things like that. But then he made his way back to his car. He got to his Volvo, fired it up and drove off toward the Port Arthur highway. But he stopped before he got to the toll when he saw a woman and her two daughters,

gives he slowed down opened up his car door i think as if to to say hey what's going on can i help you let me let me help you here and i believe that's what the mom nanette mickack believed that he was offering her help sure instead he ordered her to get on her knees and he shot her to death. Nanette had in her arms, her three-year-old daughter, Madeline, Gibbs, this guy shot her at point-blank range, killing her. Then he hunted down the six-year-old daughter, Alana, who had run and hid behind a tree. He walked up to her and also shot her at point-blank range killing her. Yeah. Wow. This guy is an absolute monster. Piece of shit. Yeah. Yeah. Now, we knew that going into it.

We did. Right. We knew we set it up front. This guy killed 35 people. Right. He wounded so many others. That's horrible. But to hear that he gunned down a mother and then executed her two very small girls.

To the point that he hunted one down. Man, I literally want to see you alone with this guy in a room for about an hour. Oh, man. I'd love that. Now, we're going to talk about what happened, you know, to him later on. But there's a part of me, and I'm sure there's a lot of people out there listening, or at least a part of them that thinks, yeah, this guy deserves Gibby Justice. Give me that opportunity, man.

After that, Martin got back into his car and drove up to the toll booth. And he shot the attendant. But then he focused his sights on a BMW that was driving up to the toll booth. He shot all three occupants inside. and he dragged their bodies out of the car. Gibbs, he wanted this car for whatever reason he saw this BMW and he said, I have to have it.

I want that. Yeah. So what he did was he went to his car, his Volvo. He got all of his guns, his ammo and his other stuff. And he loaded it into the BMW. Then Bryant drove up the road to a gas station where he encountered a man and a woman driving in their car.

He shot the woman killing her. and he forced the man into the trunk of the BMW. Essentially, he abducted this man. So at this point, Bryant is driving along the highway in this BMW. He's got a hostage in the trunk. And I guess as he drove, he took pot shots out the window of the car.

Just random pot shots. Yeah. Well, I don't know if it was all that random, but he shot at buildings. He shot at passing cars. He definitely shot at anyone he saw. he didn't kill anyone, but he did manage to wound a few people from the car. Now, by this point, police had obviously been alerted, right?

And they swarmed on Port Arthur. One of the problems at first was that they were told to be on the lookout for a yellow Volvo. Yeah, but he was no longer in. Yeah, they didn't know that he was driving this BMW. Didn't take them long, though, right? To figure out that three people had been killed at the toll booth. It came out a little bit later that he was driving the BMW.

And I don't think it was really all that hard for police to track his movements. Because like I said, the guy's shooting at people from the car. So people are going to be calling in saying they had been shot at or they were wounded. It was almost like a trail of breadcrumbs. Yeah. A Hansel and Gretel type trail of breadcrumbs leading. authorities to him. They eventually tracked him back to the C-scape B&B. And when police got there, they found the BMW on fire. So, you know, it's now around 2 p.m. So I think you have to let that sink

in. Yeah. Wow. All of this carnage in the span of about 30 minutes or so, that's pretty terrifying to think about. It is. It's a lot of tragedy in a short period of time. Yes. in a very short period of time. But Bryant was holed up inside Seescape. And at one point, he started firing at the officers who arrived. And essentially, he kept them pinned down for hours. He would just shoot at them. Anytime they would try to move, change positions, get, you know, to safety.

And he wasn't just using the weapons he had. He had found a number of guns that belonged to the Martins. Yeah. But she didn't have a problem using those too. I don't think he would have had a problem using anything. But ballistics would later prove that he used some of those as well to fire on the officers. One very interesting fact that came out in the court transcript is that a reporter called Seescape, trying to talk to the owners about what was going on in Port Arthur.

And it wasn't just Seescape. This reporter had called a number of businesses trying to get some of the company. some inside information, right, to get a scoop on what was a very big tragedy, Martin Bryant answered the phone and had a conversation with this reporter that she later said was beyond bizarre. She said that he told her his name was Jamie, but at one point she asked him what was happening. And he said, what's happening is I'm having lots of fun. Then he said, but I really need to shower. And if you call me again, I'll shoot the hostage. He's so strange. So strange on what he's saying. There's a couple different things there, right? First of all, he's calling himself Jamie, and it won't be the only time he

does that. But to say, what's happening is I'm having lots of fun. You've killed a lot of people. You've wounded a bunch of others. Yeah. Ultimately, you've traumatized a nation and even it extended further than that. So to think in your head that, hey, this is a lot of fun. Yeah. You are, you're messed up. Well, his attitude is.

I mean, clearly he's not impacted by what he's done. Mm-mm. Well, he's not negatively impacted. That's for sure. Exactly. It's not bothered him. By 430, the police had established. contact with Martin Bryant. He's holed up inside Seescape. They contacted him through a secure line.

I think they gave him a cell phone is what they did. But at this point, Gibbs, you got to think about it. They really didn't know what was going on. They believed and were being told by Bryant that he held three hostages inside the house, David and Sally Martin, and the man he had abducted from the service station. Bryant also apparently told the negotiators that his name was Jamie. So again, sticking with the Jamie name, he made the police believe that the hostages were alive by telling them that he was feeding them. He was giving them water. In fact, the Martins were dead. And Bryant had already killed the hostage, a man named Glenn Pear's. I think not all that long after he took him out of the inside of a seascape.

But, I mean, what could police really do? Gibbs, they just couldn't charge in there, right? With him threatening to kill the hostages because they had at that point no idea that they were already dead. Well, and they also know that this man needed to be taken very serious because of his actions up to this point. He's not shy of pulling the trigger. Oh, yeah, these aren't idle threats.

No. By this point, because you've already killed a, large number of people. Right. So when you say, if you do this, I'm going to kill a hostage, the police have to believe you're not bluffing because you've already killed a number of people. Exactly. So the negotiators continued to talk to Martin throughout the night up until about 930. And over that time, he kept asking for a helicopter to take him to the airport and then he wanted a plane to fly him out. And if he didn't get that, he would kill the hostages. But at 930, the battery on the cell phone died because he had failed to put it on the charger.

So I'm thinking they gave him a cell phone. They gave him a charger and they said, look, we're going to talk through this. And he just never charged it up. So they couldn't talk anymore. And pretty much the rest of the night into the early morning. Every now and then, you know, he took shots at the police. he just tried to keep them on their toes, tried to keep them at bay. And then just before 8 a.m.

the next morning, police noticed smoke coming from Seescape. And by 8.15, it was engulfed in flames. They heard some gunshots come from inside. And then around 825, Martin Bryant came out of the house wearing some dark clothing. And he was on fire. And it was like he tried to sneak. out of the house and get away from the police, but didn't make it. And apparently he either removed his clothes or they burned away because by the time police got to him, he was naked. And he definitely

suffered some very serious burns. Yeah, probably burned off of them. They arrested him and took him to the hospital. This guy is unpredictable. Yeah, unpredictable is a word. There's a lot of different words. I think you could use for Martin Bryant. Now, to me, I just wonder how much of it comes from his mental capacity. And maybe we'll touch on a little bit of that later. Right. But meanwhile, this house is a full on blaze. The problem is police and firefighters, they were worried about getting too close.

Number one, they had the fear of exploding ammunition. But I think even more importantly, they were worried. that he had maybe some homemade bombs that he would have triggered to go off or they would go off in the fire. So they let the house burn. Well, all that is a legitimate concern. I mean, the ammo igniting is never good. Later, after the structure burned, police found the burnt bodies of the Martins and Glen Pear. When they examined the Martins, they could tell that they had been shot prior to the fire. They also knew that Mr. Martin had been stabbed because they found Bryant's knife at the

cafe and it had Mr. Martin's blood on it. And to me, this is very important because, you know, in the very beginning, when newspapers in Australia first started reporting this early on, they had Bryant taking the Martin's hostage and killing them. after the shootings at Port Arthur. Right. I think they just naturally assumed everything started at Port Arthur. Sure.

And if you didn't know the back history up until then, you would, I think anybody would assume that. Yeah. So it wasn't a bad assumption. It was just they were wrong, right? They turned out to be incorrect. Glenn Pear was found handcuffed. He had been shot.

And just like the Martins, there was no evidence of smoke inhalation. So authorities knew. All three of them died before the fire was even set. They found Bryant's guns in the aftermath of the fire. Police also searched his house. They found his secret piano hiding place that we talked about. Right. They found a ton of ammunition and some other incriminating evidence.

But I mentioned it. Martin Bryant was badly burned. He was at the hospital. police really had no luck interviewing him there. It wasn't until July that they were really able to fully question him. It's a long time. Yeah, a number of months, it seems like, for him to recuperate. Now, he admitted owning the firearms and abducting Glenn pairs.

But he said, he hadn't shot anyone in Port Arthur. Yeah, I owned all the guns you found. and ballistically, all that's going to match. Right. So, you know, kind of saying that is ridiculous. And yeah, I kidnapped this Glenn Pears, but that was for a totally different reason. Unrelated. Unrelated to this mass shooting.

You can read the transcripts of his initial interview Gibbs that they're out there. What I will say about them is he's all over the map. You know, the answers to some of the questions, they just don't make any sense, right? It's kind of like what you would expect from a person with a low 60s IQ. Yeah. He just doesn't have the mental dexterity to answer these questions in a coherent manner. There's rambling. There's double talk.

There's, hey, that just doesn't make much sense what you're saying. just kind of feels like he doesn't understand the severity of his situation. Well, that is definitely true. So first of all, he did maintain his innocence, right, in his initial questioning. But at one point, they told him that he was going to be charged with 35 murders and a number of attempted murders. And Martin asked, so how many months will that get me? So, you know, exactly to your point, do you really understand? the severity? Do you understand what's going on? We're going to charge you with 35 murders.

If convicted, you're not going to spend months in jail, buddy. You're never going to see the light of day. But it's like he did not grasp that or he was playing around with him one or the other. There's only two options. There's quite a bit of audio of Martin Bryant out there to listen to. Obviously, we can't play at all. and I'm sure there were a number of interviews. I do want to play a small clip from a police interview and then we'll discuss it. How did this guy get to get in the boot? I put him in the boot. I had the gun.

Which gun did you have? I had that. I had that. So if people didn't do this, unfortunately, you guys wouldn't have a job. Well, there's a lot of truth in that, Matt. You tell you. That one new. Yes.

That was the line. This is the one that's a sweet little gun. So I know that's a really short clip. A little hard to hear. Maybe for some a little hard to understand. Yeah. But, you know, the police officer asked him about putting the guy in the boot. Obviously for us in the U.S., that's a trunk.

Right. Right. It's more chilling when you actually see it. Because there's a couple of things that really. jump out at me. Number one, he said, if people didn't do things like this, you guys would be out of the job. Yeah, it's like him saying, I'm giving you job security, man. Yeah. You should be thanking me. You have a job now because of what I just did. Should keep you busy for a while. You know, one of the police officers holds up one of the guns he used. And you can hear him say, yeah,

that's it. That's a sweet little gun. Yeah. But Gibbs, it's his mannerism. in the interview that really kind of jump out at you, he's smiling. He's laughing. You might have heard him almost giggle there at one point. It's as if he's enjoying the attention he's getting. And like you said, doesn't really seem to grasp the gravity of the carnage that he's caused at all. Not one bit. No, clueless. Now, I think at this point, it's a little hard to tell what interview reviews what. I don't think he's admitted to anything. So even though, yeah, he admitted to, I shouldn't say that, he admitted to abducting that guy. And that's why he's talking about the boot. Sure. He admitted that the guns were his. So he's saying, yeah, that's my gun. That's a sweet

gun. Right. But I don't think at this point he's saying, I killed anyone. I did all that other stuff. Yeah. It's still chilling, though, to think you're being told that we think you did this and you're going to chuckle, laugh. He does a lot of smiling. And you can tell it's just, it's, it's not right for the atmosphere. He's not acting in a way that you would expect someone to act in that same situation. Well, he definitely has some social awkwardness. Yeah, I think a lot of it goes back to not being able to read social cues, not understanding how to interact with people in, like a proper manner. Right.

It's very bizarre. I mean, I encourage people to go out there and watch some of it. We've seen that in other interviews. You know, I remember we did the one where the woman shot her fiancé and she was in the interrogation room and doing handstands. Oh, yeah, yeah. Other bizarre things, you know. It was Shana Huber, I think you're talking about.

Yeah, very similar, you know, when you talk about Jody Arias. Yeah. acting in a way that you wouldn't expect. Now, the difference is I don't think either one of those women had the issues that Martin Bryant had. I think they were both pretty intelligent. Yeah. They were just acting very strange and doing some bizarre things.

Now, we're not going to spend a lot of time on Bryant's trial. He was charged with 35 murders and 20 attempted murders. He was evaluated by professionals and found fit to. stand trial. He initially pleaded not guilty to all counts, but then later reversed that decision and pleaded guilty to everything. Begibs, they had so many witnesses that could put him as the shooter. They had video footage from the Port Arthur area showing him shooting, walking around carrying the gun. And of course, they had him coming out of the burning house. I think you and I could have have won that case against Martin Bryant, even with our diminished legal knowledge.

Yeah, I think I had a real good chance at doing that. You would definitely have to wear the wig. I don't know if they wear the wig in Australia or not. Oh, the wig. Yeah, I forgot. Yeah. I don't know if they do. But if they do, that'd be a good look on you.

It would be a good look. My golden locks. Martin was ultimately sentenced to life in prison with no chance at parole. And, you know, one of the things I struggle with in this. This episode gives, in a case like this, where so many people lost their lives, it's impossible to talk about and provide details about all the victims. You just can't do it. That's sad.

It is. But it also shows you just how many people were killed in a very short amount of time. We mentioned it. 35 men, women and children lost their lives through the actions of. Martin Bryan. They were David and Sally Martin, Winifred Applin, Walter Bennett, Nicole Burgess, Chung-Soe Ling, Elva Gaylard, Zoe Hall, Mervin and Elizabeth Howard, Ron Jerry, Tony Kiston, Dennis Lever, Sarah Lawton, Pauline Masters, Nanette, Madeline, Madeline, and Alana, We talked about them.

Andrew Mills, Gwenda, Neander, Peter Nash, Ing Moe William, Anthony Nightingale, Mary Nixon, Glenn Pears, Jim Pollard, Janet Quinn, Kate Scott, Robert and Helene Salzman, Raymond and Kevin Sharp, Royce Thompson, and Jason winter. To me, that's sobering. Very. To read those names out loud, it took a long time. Yeah. And I think it just helps it to sink in how many people lost their lives. And you can't forget about the large number of people who were wounded. Many of them at one point in critical condition, but survived thanks to the great work by nurses and doctors. All done by one man.

Yeah. Yeah. And to think of the broader impact it had on these individuals, families, friends, peers, coworkers, I mean, it went out and deep and it was just tragic. Yeah, I think that's a great point that you bring up. It's like a spider web. It's like a ripple. Yeah.

Right? A ripple effect. Yeah. Yes, you have the victim. You have the victim's families. But then you can just keep going out. Yeah. There's other loved ones.

There's friends. There's, you know, acquaintances. So when I say 35 and so many more wounded, you're really talking about thousands and thousands of people directly affected. Yeah. By what Martin Bryant did, not to mention the larger population of people who were saddened or, you know, extremely fearful. And maybe that changed their lives in.

in some way based on what he did. Yeah, absolutely. The community as a whole had to feel it and never be the same again. When you say community, I would probably almost say country. Yeah. You know, definitely the community, definitely the state of Tasmania. I would say the country of Australia. I mean, they felt it.

They still feel it today. This is still a very raw subject. Which is evident by just us doing part one. And seeing a lot of the comets. Sure. On the different sites that, you know, we have listeners in Australia and Tasmania and, you know, all over. But they all jumped in and said some of them actually lived in Hobart. Oh, yeah.

And remember that day. Yeah. And they still will never forget that. It's like ingrained in their head. They're never going to forget that moment hearing about it. Um, some of them actually had people that were in that area when the shots happened. And so that impact, you know, on their lives, they're never going to forget that. Nope.

You know, like I said, still very raw to this day and probably will always be for, for many, many people. There have been a number of things cited as Bryant's reason for doing what he did. Yeah, you know, I think at the end of the day, we know what happened, but why did it happen? You know, in the period of time leading up to the massacre, he was drinking pretty heavily. There's thoughts that he began to feel more angry, more isolated. He apparently told a neighbor that he was going to do something that would make everyone remember him. See, that statement right there anymore should be an automatic flag to call.

I know. I know you say that. And then I think to myself, okay, what if my neighbor said that? am I automatically thinking it's bad? What if he's going to do something great that people are going to remember him by? I think sometimes it's the fact that we already know the ending. Oh, absolutely. We know the outcome.

So now it's easy for me to say. Yeah. But would you do that to a person that you've known for quite a while who you have no thought is going to do something bad? I don't know. I guess it probably depends on the delivery. And the person. Yeah.

So if there's no certain delivery and it's kind of like, said nonchalantly, probably not. But if it's said with anger, if it's said with, you can tell the guy or female, whoever's telling you this is on a downward spiral, then maybe it should be a concern. Oh, yeah. Well, now you're adding all kinds of stuff into it. You know, give me a little bit and I'll add more. There's the resentment that he felt toward the Martins. We talked about that. it's also been said that he held a grudge against the Broad Arrow Cafe because when he was young,

they wouldn't let him sell some of his homemade items outside. Again, I saw that in one place. I just think this is one of the big problems, right? It's trying to figure him out because Brian has never revealed as far as I could find his true motives for the attacks. I think all of this stuff comes from other people, maybe some people that have analyzed him, but I don't know if he, from his own mouth, has ever said, this is why I did it. Yeah. And why would he at this point? There are a few cases prior to the shootings at Port Arthur, for which some people believe Bryant might be responsible.

In March 1993, a German backpacker named Nancy Grunwell disappeared near Beaumaris Beach. In October of 1995, an Italian student named Victoria Cafaso was found stabbed to death near that area. Police found a witness who said they saw a figure with long blonde hair on the beach that day. They weren't 100% sure if it was a man or a woman. And we've talked about, you know, the pictures of Martin Bryan. If you look at some of them, he had very long blonde hair. I already said it. Sometimes it looked very wild.

But Martin was known to frequent the beaches in this area to fish and dive. But as far as I can tell, I don't think police have ever tied him to these two incidents. And I doubt they'll ever be able to unless he confesses. Right. Very quickly after the shootings. politicians came out stating that gun reform was needed. Newly elected Prime Minister John Howard was at the forefront of saying that Australia needed stricter gun laws.

And eventually the government banned automatic and semi-automatic firearms, adopted new licensing requirements, established a National Firearms Registry, and instituted a 28-day waiting period for gun purchases. But they didn't stop there. They bought and destroyed more than 600,000 civilian-owned firearms. A move that cost them about a half a billion dollars and was funded by raising taxes. But the part that amaze me gives is that they did all of this within a few months. Pretty fast acting.

It happened very quickly. Yeah, I don't think that could ever happen around here. I think it would be tough. I think it would be tough. And like I said, there were a lot of people in Australia that were very opposed to it. Because I think they, if I remember correctly, they had changed some of the laws like in 1991. Yeah. Obviously not as strict as they ultimately made them.

But they also didn't make it retroactive, I believe. So yeah, some things maybe became illegal or you had to register them, but they didn't make you turn them in. So people still had them. now they went to the step of not only strengthening everything, but also saying, hey, you need to give these up. We'll buy them from you, but you got to give them up. That's where they were smart is to say they would buy them because the, just do the right thing and turn them in.

Yeah, people aren't going to do that. No, no. You get a few, but you're not going to get the volume they had, you know, so by paying people for them, that's, if that's what you want to do, if you want to get those guns in, you have to, you have to, you know, reimburse people for what they paid for them. or reasonable cost. And I know places like New York City has done that. Yeah. They have paid for guns, basically saying, hey, turning your guns, we'll pay you for them.

Yeah. But I don't think gives we could cover this case properly without talking about some of the conspiracy theories that have cropped up over the years. The biggest one is I understand it is that the shootings were set in motion to bring about these gun reform changes that we just talked about. So I guess there are people that believe the government was actually involved in this. Now, there's always conspiracy theories, right, when you have a big tragedy like this. Always. But that's a doozy, you know, trying to implicate the Australian government and saying, yeah, we orchestrated something that killed 35 of our own citizens so that we could pass these gun reform laws. Including women and children. And yeah, including small children. Yeah. Some

people point to the fact that the changes were proposed so quickly, and they were. I mean, within, I think, less than two weeks of the shooting, the proposed gun reform was already, you know, started making its way, being talked about. It's almost like they had it prepared. That's what the conspiracy theorist would say. Yeah. Well, here in the United States, if it happened that fast, I'd be like, hmm, maybe. Because nothing gets... We can. We can. We can. can't get anything done that fast. Exactly. Some people point to the precision of some of the shots that killed people at Port Arthur claiming there was no way that someone like Martin Bryant could have pulled those off by himself. So to me, that kind of reminds me a little bit of the

conspiracy theories surrounding the JFK assassination. Right. I guess there are people that believe Martin Bryant was set up as a patsy, like some believe that Oswald was set up as a patsy. Yeah, but with Martin, I think because there was some survivors that they would have maybe said, oh, there was more than one shooter or it didn't look like him. You would think that there be some of that conversation going on. Well, there are people that believe many of the survivors of the massacre that day were intelligence officers sent in to help manage the chaos. Okay.

So, wow. I don't know. Another claim that's been made is that people point to the fact that Tasmania ordered a hearse in 1995 that was capable of carrying 16 bodies at a time when their average murder rate was, I guess, one murder every two months at the time. Well, that can definitely fuel some conspiracies there. Now, I'm not saying that's a fact.

I'm not saying any of these are facts. Yeah. Obviously, these are just things that I read online as I went down the rabbit hole, as you and I often do. But it is a part of this case, this conspiracy theory angle. There are people that believe it. There are people that believe 9-11 was a conspiracy. There are people that believe the Oklahoma.

Oklahoma City bombing was a conspiracy. Almost any big event tragedy like that, you're going to have somebody or groups of people that will blame it on the government or say it was, you know, this or that. Some of those school shootings have always turned out to be. Have been thought by some to have been a conspiracy. The other thing that I found interesting is that the newspapers and media in Australia, they came under fire for their reporting of this case. I kind of mentioned it earlier, but, you know, some were accused of enhancing

photographs of Martin Bryant to make him look more evil, like digitally enhancing his eyes, doing different things, I guess. Yeah. He did look evil. He did look evil. There was, I think, some uproar maybe over the posting of photographs of some of the bodies, if I remember. But Gibbs in wrapping up this case.

Martin Bryant was 28 years old when he carried out his shooting spree. In part one, we detailed out his childhood. He definitely had a low IQ. He had a host of issues interacting with people socially. There were a lot of reports that he had been depressed, had been drinking heavily. He had the guns and he had the ammunition. That part's not in question. Yeah.

Putting the conspiracy theories aside, it's an. unbelievably tragic case, one that still to this day haunts many Australians. It led to some gun reform, which again, from what I read, many Australians were four, but many were also against because they didn't want to give up some of their rights. That's an argument like you said that we have here in the U.S. all the time. What I do think is undeniable based on some of the resources. that I saw is that the mass shootings rate, the homicide rate, and the suicide rate by firearms, all of that has gone down since the changes. And I don't know how it couldn't, right? If you take the ability of people to have guns away, those rates are going to go down. Yeah. What I didn't look at and what I'm

always curious about is, okay, does that mean that homicizer then cause, you know, carried out by other means? Or is the homicide rate just down down? Right. Is it down by use of firearms or is it down altogether? All together. Yeah. Because obviously there's a lot of different ways to kill people if that's what you want to do. Well, yeah, we know that. We've talked about so many. But for me, I think Martin Bryant was somewhat of a ticking time bomb. I really do. I think it was just a matter of time before he did something drastic. I think he warned some people of that. Yeah, I think once his lady friend was no longer around and whatever he did or didn't do to his dad, but once his dad was also out of the picture, I think at that point, that's when the

time mom really started ticking. Well, you and I talked about in episode one, right? Those were the two people that probably most kept him somewhat grounded. I think without them, he was just flying free. He had nobody to kind of keep him in check. Exactly. Keep him grounded. But as in all cases, it's easy to question after the fact who could have or should have done something about it.

Brian has tried to end his life in prison more than once over the years. He's now 53 years old and is housed in the Rizden maximum security prison near Hobart. You and I have done some cases in Australia. I think we have at times questioned the length of sentences in Australia. You know, he was given life without parole. This is such a huge case. Yeah. I don't think they will ever let this guy out.

I just don't see it happening because of the magnitude. Right. The impact it had on a community, a nation. I think the whole nation would riot. Yeah. if if they were to let martin brian out of prison or they might not have a gun but somebody's going to take it into their own hands yeah to do something bad to this guy hopefully you know he just needs to rot away right there but that's it Gibbs for our coverage of martin bryant and the port arthur massacre got some

voicemails you want check those out yeah see him hi mack and gibby um yeah it's chloe calling from norwich in the UK. I just wanted to give you guys a call because I absolutely love your podcast. I've listened to every episode and it brightens my Monday mornings to be honest. I'm not really into unsolved crime. I always feel like I need to know what happens. So I haven't moved on to try the podcast yet, but I may do. But yeah, I also want to call because I want to give you a case suggestion. The case is the murder of Justin Back and it sparked my interest in true crime actually and I'd love you guys to cover it

especially because if it's local but yeah I just wanted to say I love you guys and Gibby I'd absolutely love for you to try and imitate my accent that would make my day as well but yeah keep up the good work guys and keep your own time taken. Well, go ahead to him, but his accent,

but I don't know if I can do that accent at all. I don't know why that cracked me up so much. Her accent was not what I would think of as heavy. No. I think it was kind of subdued as far as some British accents go. Yeah, for her region that she lives in. What region is that? Did she say it was Cornish?

You asking me? I don't remember. Now, you know, like, Liverpool, you know, chick-on. They have a really, when they say, you don't say chicken, they say, chik-on, it's different. Okay. So depending on where you're at, you know.

Right, but you acted like she knew where she was at, and now it comes out that you do not. Oh, yeah, anyway. Anyway. Yeah. So her voicemail was longer. Some part I had to cut out for time, but the case she mentioned, she said it was in Ohio.

Hmm. So we need to check that out. I thought it sounded familiar when she said that, you know. It's kidding to me, but we need to check it out. Hey, you guys. Mike and Giddy. You guys are cracking me up. My name is Ruth Graham, and you guys are just making me laugh so much.

And I like it because I used to watch the ID channel a lot, and my husband did not like it because I get nightmares. And you guys give so much a lighter aspect. I guess it's a sad topic, but it's so much lighter when I'm listening to you guys. And I laugh so much with Givie. Yeah. But anyway, I just want to say, I love you guys. much and you make me laugh every single day.

Keep your own tight ticking. Well, thank you so much. And you know what? Gibi makes me laugh every single day as well. That's because Mike tease them up for me. Well, you know, she said something there, right? The ID channel, very straightforward, very serious. Sure, yeah.

What we're talking about is very serious. Very much. And we try every now and then when it makes sense to lighten it up. It's tough. Because when you're talking about such tragic events, you want to be very careful. Yeah. And we always try to be careful. But if we can lighten it a bit or where it makes sense, we will try.

Yeah. Hello. My name is Casey. I have been listening to your podcast since the beginning. I love. So I have a case. It's a guy that I actually dated when I was in the military. His name is Marcus Hossaber.

He was hired to kill one of his friends. friend's wife. It's kind of crazy. I found out about it well after the fact. And I mean, he lived with me and my children just two years prior to him doing this. So it was super shocking, but it'd be interesting to find out all the details on it. Yeah, I love your reasons podcast. And you can't wait to hear more. Thank you. Well, we'll definitely write that down, but that is scary. That is scary. Because you think you know someone, obviously you thought you knew them well enough to allow them to live in the with you around your kids around your kids and then you find out a couple years later they're capable of this yeah that's scary hi michigan gibby my name's joe i've been listening since

september of 2019 and i just had to call in after listening to martin bryant the part one um you guys were talking about horse float which i got a pretty good laugh about because i used to own horses when i was younger and we would float their teeth which is basically a dental procedure um so nothing near to what y'all guessed that I thought it was hilarious. Also, I, your sufficient can't thing. That is from Parks and Recreation. Also, hilarious, though. I'm not going to chant that for you because, frankly, chant freak me out. Also, wanted to say, go blue. I'm from Michigan. So, sorry, not sorry. I hope you all have a great day. And thanks so much for the podcast. We love you guys. Keep your own time taken.

Okay. So that may be correct here in the U.S. But I looked it up, Gibbs, and a horse float is a trailer in Australia. I probably got, I can't tell you. And we've, yeah, we've got a ton of emails and show me the trailers down there, what they look like. So we were pretty close. I think I said trailer and you said something else. I did say something else.

But you were pretty close. But I've heard that too float. I don't really understand what that means. Right. Obviously that maybe is a U.S. term. But a horse float in Australia is just. a trailer that they, I know why they call it a float.

But maybe it's like a float in a parade. Why did they call those floats? Because it looks like they're floating. Floating. Did she say what I thought she said towards the end? Yeah, go big blue. Oh, yeah. I don't know how you can say that at this point in time.

I don't think they won anything this year, her team. They might have won one game. I think it's like the last year for the coach. I think they're probably going to let that coach go up there. Maybe. Maybe. No disrespect. We still love you.

Yeah. But we got to stick up for our Buckeyes. We do. Gibbs, we had a lot of mailbag. Brother and sister fans, Steve and Bobby, they sent us some snacks. They sent T-shirts. Awesome. One for me that says, hey, Gibbs, how you doing?

Yours says, hey, man, I'm doing good, man. Which really cracked me out. Yeah. And they sent me a gasey bobblehead. Awesome. To go with the BTK one that they sent last year. Yeah. So it's like a yearly thing.

I get a bobblehead. I see it right there, too. And it's really cool. Yeah. He's dressed up as Pogo. Cool. Gibbs, you got a K-bar sport. Yeah.

And I got a Star Wars Pop, which is awesome. Yeah. Problem is no name inside. I feel like someone emailed me, but now I can't find the email. So email me again. Yeah, let them know so we can give you a shout out. And also no name on a package with a whole bunch of those awesome Duke sausages. Yeah.

So let me know about that. Absolutely. All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.