True Crime All The Time - Mary Keenan O'Connor Part 1

Episode Date: August 1, 2022

Mary Keenan O’Connor is a lesser-known criminal, but her case made front-page headlines after 5-year-old Nancy Gleen was found face down in a mud puddle. Mary reportedly confessed to a number of people, including a detective, that she hit Nancy for eating berries and pestering her, but she was vague on some of the details. Join Mike and Gibby in part 1 of 2 of the case of Mary O'Connor. There were rumors that Mary O’Connor confessed to the murder in her sleep. This was quickly proven false, but the details of the crime that came out were shocking and disturbing to Philadelphia residents. In this episode, we will discuss the murder of 5-year-old Nancy Glenn, Mary’s confession, and her infamous murder trial. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 294 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, as always, is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. Give me, what is going on? What's happening, man? Yeah, I'm doing well. Yeah, good. Me too. So let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts.

Let's do it. We had Christy Tolugan. Hey, Tolugan. Laura Arnold. What's going on, Arnold? Peyton Smith. What's going on, Peyton? The De Rosa Roque Roquette family.

easy for you to say not really what's going on rocote family tina mccance hey tina megan hawker what's going on mgan eric moulner hey thanks moulner crystal ing hey crystal raylin paul well thank you paul sugar sticks what's up sugar sticks linda baker i'm still thinking about sugar sticks oh yeah and the way you say it too hey linda sandy stanley hey appreciate that stanley alicia mason hey thank you elisha mason hey thank you Alicia. Zoe Kelly. Hi, Zoe. Elwira O'Lewa. Ooh, O'Iwa. Sarah Sweat jumped out of our highest level. What's going on, Sarah? Sylvia Davis. Hey, thank you, Sylvia. Emma McPherson. Appreciate that. Emma. Christina Furnish. There's good old Christina.

Rochelle Emery. Hey, Rochelle, Pencil Junkie. What's going on, junkie? Susie Corbid. Hey, Susie. And last but not least, Nick Osborne jumped out of our highest level. It's Ozzy's relative. It might be. Yeah, it might be. And then if we go back into the of all. This week, we selected Amber Geichen. Like the, uh, the lizard. Gikin? That's Guyco. Oh, close. That's close. And then on PayPal, we had donations from Yading Tina Chang. Hey, what's going on? Chang. Marguerite McAowen left a sizable donation. Wow. Thank you, Marguerite. And Richard Amy. Hey, appreciate that, Richard. So thanks to everyone. We really appreciate it. Gibbs right now, we have a lot out. We have a Patreon episode that dropped on

Saturday on Robert Liberty, who was a man known as the candlelight killer. Not the romantic type. No, no. Very strange case, a guy who was found innocent by reason of insanity and then went on to kill a number of people. Yeah. More people. And then on true crime all the time unsolved, we have an episode out on the Phillip

Island murders. So we're headed to Australia for that one. Just a little island off of the city of Melbourne. and we're going to look into the murder of one individual and a disappearance of another. Kind of a love triangle thing happened in there. All right. So definitely check that out. All right, buddy.

Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I'm ready. We're talking about Mary Keenan O'Connor. A little Irish. Definitely a lesser-known criminal, but, you know, her case made front page headlines. There were rumors that Mary O'Connor confessed to murder. her sleep. This was quickly proven false. But the true details of the crime were shocking and disturbing to the residents of Philadelphia. Gibbs at first, I thought this was definitely just going to

be a one parter. But there's so much information surrounding this case and the trial and things that go on after that it just has to be a two-parter. So in this episode, we'll discuss the murder of five-year-old Nancy Glenn, Mary's confession, and her infamous murder trial. Mary Keenan O'Connor was born on July 2, 1918 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Mary's parents were Robert and Mary O'Connor. Robert was a high school math teacher in Philly. Mary lived with her parents in the West Oak Lane District of Philadelphia. Now, according to the Philadelphia Inquirer, neighbors described Mary.

as a big husky girl. Husky. Husky. I was a husky boy. I know you were. Yeah. So was I. Fond of outdoor sports and apparently only mildly interested in feminine pursuits.

Mary had a reputation of being very bad tempered according to her neighbors. So this was written in the Philadelphia Inquirer. Probably not what we would see today. Probably not. And this is something that you and I have talked. about, you know, in cases that go back a little bit further, you know, some of the writing was really rough. It really, yeah, it really was. And okay, they weren't politically correct. They didn't use the same type of words that, that we would use today. Kind of like watching

an episode of Mad Men. And even, yeah, just a little bit further back than that. But Mary's friends called her Tarzan because of her athletic ability. She was a, sports star at Camden Girls Catholic High School. So I don't know for most girls, I don't think these are labels that they would really want to have put on them. I don't know how many girls want to be called Tarzan. I don't know how many people in general want to be described as a big husky. Some people might wear that as a badge of honor. Maybe. I know I didn't want to wear that tagline of being husky, but I did. At the time of her arrest, Mary was a college student in the fall of 1935.

She studied physical education at Temple University and transferred to Immaculata College. In the summer of 1936 and 1937, she was one of 20 young women hired to work at Camp Happy, an institution for underprivileged children. Mary's best friend and co-counselor was Mrs. Marie Kibbler, Phillips, an ex-Temple University student and Olympic gymnast. Camp happy. Sounds like the perfect name. Yeah.

It's a camp. It's going to make you happy. Sounds like it was a good thing too, right? For underprivileged children, they're trying to do something good. It also probably makes the parents happy too because their kids are away. They get some time to themselves. But Mary returned from camp on September 2nd or 3rd, 1937. On Labor Day of that year, 19-year-old Mary Keenan O'Connor.

murdered her five-year-old neighbor, Nancy Glenn, in a fit of rage. Nancy was found dead in the mid-afternoon of September 6th. Her body was found face down in a mud puddle covered by a flattened metal drum, often described as a piece of tin in a lot of the newspaper articles. The police initially believed Nancy was attacked and dragged to the puddle where she was found. But on September 29th, a cornerstone. jury declared Nancy's death accidental. But according to the New York Times, what the coroner's jury didn't know was that Mary confessed to a friend and eventually to her parents. Mary said she was haunted

by sleepless nights, which led her to confess to this murder. I think it'd be very difficult to keep that bottled up within. I would think for most people, right, if you're not a psychopathic serial killer. Yeah. The taking of another human being's life. And especially, you know, think about a sweet, innocent little five-year-old. How could you live with yourself? How could you live with what you had done? It seems to me as though it would just eat you up inside. It would. Mary confessed to her close friend, Marie Phillips, on September 7th, 1937, she told Marie that she had accidentally murdered Nancy Glenn. Brie couldn't believe it and told Mary to go upstairs and lay down.

Marie came up a few minutes later and Mary told her the full story. Marie's husband Chester came upstairs and Mary confessed to him as well. So, you know, I'm taking this is kind of one of those. I don't believe what you're saying. Obviously, you must be tired. You're not feeling well. You know, go upstairs and lay down because what you're saying doesn't, make any sense. You need to get some rest. You're talking nonsense at this point.

But obviously when that person continues on and then, you know, your husband comes up and she tells the same story to him, at that point, you got to start maybe believing it or thinking something's wrong here. Marie Phillips later said that she and her husband were haunted by the confession. Chester told the Philadelphia Inquirer, ever since the day Mary O'Connor, walked into our home with newspapers telling about little Nancy Glenn. We have thought nothing else day and night. We would talk about it when we were alone. Of one thing we agreed, we wouldn't tell the police.

Mary had confided to her friend, my wife, and her hour of need, insisting that it was an accident and we believed her. And at this point, why wouldn't they believe her? They're best friends. Yeah, I get it. You're going to believe what that person is telling you, but what do you do with the information? Because now you already know it. You can't unknow it.

You can't just forget about it. No. So you have to make the decision. Do you go to the police or not? And it sounds like they made the decision that they weren't going to. They didn't want to do that to Mary. When Mr. and Mrs. O'Connor visited the Phillips's home, Marie told them about Mary's confession. According to Marie's statement to police captain, John Murray.

Murphy. They didn't say anything about knowing it at the time, but you could tell that they did just by looking at them. And I get what they're saying, right? You can, you know when somebody knows something. Well, and especially something this shocking. You can tell by a person's reaction on a lot of things. But the more shocking, the news is that you're telling them, I think the more you can tell, whether or not that person already knows it or not. The police, arrested Mary, based on information given to them by the Philadelphia Inquirer. They received a tip from the newspaper late on the night of November 21st. That evening, Mary was arrested inside her grandfather's home in Merchantville, New Jersey. Mary confessed in

the early morning hours of November 22nd, she gave her confession to four police officers, Captain John Murphy, Detective Warren Murphy, Detective O'Connell, and Sergeant Lloyd J. Mason. So she got four detectives sitting in a room when she's telling this story. Yeah. And what she told them was that on September 6th, Nancy followed Mary down a muddy lane while she was riding her bike. Mary fell off her bike and some coins fell out of her pocket. Nancy helped her pick them up. and then she begged Mary for a ride on the bike. But then Nancy started eating some berries, which was something that she shouldn't have been doing. Mary told her to stop, but Nancy wouldn't listen.

Mary said she was angry. And so she knocked her down with a blow to the chin. Mary said she then hit Nancy again to stop her from screaming. Nancy fell down. Mary checked, but couldn't feel a pulse. and so she put Nancy face down in a muddy pool and then covered the body with a flattened oil drum. Mary said she covered Nancy's body because a man was working in the nearby fields and she

didn't want him to see the little girl. There you have it. But what do you have? You know, I get what you're saying. There you have it. She's laid it out. But what has she really laid out? Well, she's laid out what she wants you to hear.

Or what really has. happened. Yeah, we don't know. We don't know. We don't know. Right. I think the one thing that you can say is that she's at least laid out that she caused the death. Sure. Of this little five-year-old girl. Accidental or not. She's saying this is what happened. Well, and, you know, is, can it be accidental if you strike somebody? I don't think so. You know, it may not be first degrees, not premeditation. Right. But can you really call it accidental. I mean, you struck a five-year-old in the face and then again. And then you hit her again. Yeah. That's not accidental. Right. And let's not forget, you then put her face down in a muddy pool of water. Yeah. And chose to cover her up. Yes. And not do anything to maybe save her life. Now, Mary refused to sign her confession. And she requested to see her father. She was afraid to fall asleep at the county jail because she was fearful that she would talk in her

sleep. This led to rumors that Mary's father heard her make the confession in her sleep, but her father, you know, denied this. And I think this, you know, you can read in some of the old papers. It was like headline news. Yeah. You know, woman confesses to murder in her sleep, and you can just picture how it goes from there. You're probably sensationalized it didn't. Sure. Yeah. Sure. Because who wouldn't want to read about that? Oh, yeah. If I saw that headline, I would want to read that. I'd want to figure out what was going on. Mary's attorney William Gray announced that he would seek a rid of habeas corpus to have her committed. Her attorney advised that she waive extradition in Camden. At her commitment hearing, though Mary's attorney demanded that she be sent to county jail. But Camden

Mayor Davis Wilson said he didn't want to hold her on any charges until he had all the evidence. So on November 22nd, Mary was committed without bail pending her next hearing. Detective Murphy spoke at the hearing on November 22nd and said that on the evening of the 21st, he went to the home of Mary's grandfather. He said that Mary was on his list of people to question because she owned a bicycle and a witness reported seeing a girl with a bike at the crime scene. So Mary's grandfather invited Detective Murphy in. at one point Mary came down the stairs. And when she was asked about Nancy, she told the detective

that she wanted to speak to him privately. And according to the New York Times, Detective Warren Murphy testified about Mary's confession. He said, she told me that she had chastised Nancy for eating berries from a roadside bush, which she had been forbidden to eat. And also because she kept teasing her, asking her to take her for a ride on. on her bicycle. She told me that she lost her head, struck Nancy on the chin and knocked her down. After covering the body, she went to a cemetery close by and pulled off her gloves. She burned them there in a field. Then she went to a certain home and washed the mud off her shoes and went home. Sounds like she knew what she was doing on the cleanup part. Well, I was going to say

this is kind of damaging from a number of different angles. Number one, you have her. her striking this girl. Right. And then you have the burning of the gloves, the washing off the shoes of mud. Okay, why are you doing all that stuff? Because you're trying to get rid of evidence. Not doing anything to try to help the little girl at that point. No, absolutely not.

I think what you're doing is trying not to get caught. Mary said that after cleaning up, she went on a car ride with her father. They got home at 4.30 p.m. there was a huge crowd outside the Glenholm. She and her parents went out for dinner. When they came back, they learned that Nancy's body had been found. They went to the crime scene.

A man in the crowd said he saw a girl on a bicycle. The New York Times reported that according to Detective Murphy, she said, I was terribly frightened. And the next day, she told me she bought all of the Philadelphia papers and went out to see a girlfriend in West Philadelphia. you there she told this girl the complete story. So that's her friend, right, that we already

talked about. Right. Went out and bought all the papers. And why would you do that? Because you want to see what information is known. You want to see if you're going to get in trouble. Yeah. If they're going to put it together, if they're going to, you know, come after you. You know, the detective said, you know, that Mary told him she was terribly frightened. I imagine she was terribly frightened. Of course. Now, we'll get into it, I'm sure. Did she mean to kill this girl? Did she snap? But once she hears that a man in the crap saw a girl on a bicycle and she knows she's that girl, okay, she's got to be very, very worried that it's just a matter of time. Right. It's going to come back. And it did happen pretty quickly, right? They came to talk to her. I mean, I think what we can't lose sight of and all

this is that, you know, they live next door to each other. So she's going to be talked to at some point regardless. Mayor Wilson stated that he believed that Nancy's body showed signs of a struggle, which was not disclosed in the coroner's report. On November 22nd, coroner Charles Hirsch said he would reopen the case. I'm sure he appreciate being called out there, but it's the right thing to do. I mean, if the mayor says, I'm pretty sure that her body showed signs of a struggle. you need to redo that. I also found it interesting how in the 1930s involved a mayor was. Oh, yeah.

And kind of the criminal side of things, whether to issue charges and, you know, things that mayors today really have much to do with. Right. Mary's neighbors told the press that Mary may have had a grudge against the Glenn family. Several years before her arrest, she had what was described. as a good-natured scuffle with Joseph Glenn, who was only four years old at the time. During the scuffle, he bit Mary's finger and the wound became infected. Okay.

I'm pretty sure that happens all over the world every day, somewhere in the world. People are playing around. Kids are playing. A small kid bites an older kid. You're going to hold a grudge over that and then, you know, kill this kid's sister? Right. Not over that. No.

Or at least you hope not. Yeah. I mean, we've seen people murder for, you know, reasons that just seems so outlandish. On November 24th, Mayor Wilson announced that he planned to issue warrants charging two young women with what he called abnormal practices. So these charges involved Mary and her friend Marie Phillips. According to the Philadelphia Inquirer, the new evidence led the mayor to imply that Nancy Glenn was killed in resisting erotic advances. There's something you don't really hear today?

No. And the inquirer provided a summary of kind of how these allegations came out. They said, pursuing a strong suspicion that a sex angle existed in the slaying of the Glenn child, detectives have uncovered information, not only giving further weight, to that theory, but an entirely separate and collateral situation involving literally dozens of other young women. Spurred by this discovery, detective settled down yesterday to questioning of every acquaintance of Mary Keenan O'Connor in order to trace the ramifications of the alleged situation, as well as in search of any confirmatory evidence of their now strongly

reinforced theory of the circumstances which the death of the Glenn Child took place. The mayor issued a statement on affidavits I have before me. I proposed to issue warrants for the defendants, Mary Keenan O'Connor, and Mrs. Marie Kibbler Phillips. This is the most extraordinary case of my 30 years of experience in criminal prosecution. The report of the coroner's physician on his conclusion as to the injury on on Nancy's body, as disclosed by the post-mortem examination, which I criticized at the time, certainly requires thorough investigation. I think he's saying it right there, right?

We need to do a deep dive. Which the guy said that he would do. The report of the undertaker, as to scratches on the dead girl's legs and certain other bruises and marks on her body, do not agree with the coroner's physicians report. The police of the 25th district were entire. too anxious to close this case to satisfy me, there are certain other very interesting and significant injections into this case. I intend to see that justice is done without regard to any powerful interest being exerted. Just don't hear that much about Undertakers anymore.

You definitely don't hear the word used, I think, as much as you did back in the day. You know, this mayor has a lot to say. Yeah, I mean, he does. And, and obviously, Obviously, what he is saying is that he wants to get to the bottom of these other circumstances, being this angle that there was some type of sexual advance involved, and that's what led to the murder. You know, ever since we got back from CrimeCon in Vegas, I feel like there's been a little something missing. Life's too short. For a day without fun, get a thrill whenever you need it with Slotomania, the world's number one. free slots game. I love playing this game. It is definitely a unique gaming experience. The graphics

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The Phillips learned about the charges against Mary when they returned to their apartment on the afternoon of the 24th. Marie Phillips said, it's a lie. It's not true. I don't know who would start such a report. She was very upset and a lot of paper said that, you know, she sobbed and sobbed. And I could understand that. I mean, listen to what is being now said about. her. She's now being lumped in. She is. Along with Mary, not just in in, in the murder, but also in what is turning out to be some type of sexual controversy or cult or club or, you know, whatever they're trying, whatever road they're trying to go down. Yeah, something that she doesn't want to be part of. And something that according to her,

she wasn't. Mr. Phillips hired an attorney for his wife and said, we have, not been away from our home. We have no intention of going away. Both my wife and myself are available either to the police or the mayor all of the time and at any time. That is all I can say. According to the Philadelphia Inquirer, they both pledged to stand by Mary when Marie was asked why she didn't tell the police. She said, because naturally of loyalty for a friend, my telling it wouldn't bring Nancy back. You and I talked about it a little bit earlier. But now this, the situation has changed. You know, now she's being lumped in or being brought into this thing.

So you could see why people after hearing that she may be involved in some way would be very questioning of why she didn't go to the police after Mary confessed more so than if she wasn't involved at all. Exactly. Because now there might be an actual reason for her not to want to go to police. So we mentioned it that originally a coroner's jury determined that Nancy died accidentally. A doctor performed Nancy's autopsy and undertaker prepared her body for burial. No reports of injuries were included in the autopsy report. Detective Russell Allen told the press that he never believed Nancy died accidentally, but his protests were overruled.

He investigated the crime scene and saw evidence that a bike passed through what he called the desolate, unpaid, and muddy backwoods lane near Nolan's Wood. Mary said in her confession that her fight with Nancy started when she fell off her bike onto the muddy path. I don't know if you could really call it a fight. I mean, it's what she's calling it, but when you hit a five-year-old, it's probably not going to be a bunch of a fight. Yeah, I mean, it's a strange word to use, I guess. Police Captain Murphy was dissatisfied with Mary's confession.

in 1936, the city of Philadelphia experienced a series of sex crimes against children. And the missing persons and sex squad was formed out of the missing person squad. And it's thought that this is most likely why the police believed there was a sexual motive to the murder. So apparently, you know, they had experienced a large number of sex crimes against children just the year before. Which is alarming. It is alarming. It just shows you, though, that, you know, these types of crimes are not new. They're not recent.

I mean, we're talking about 1936 here. They're around back then, probably before then, and we know after. The mayor accidentally disclosed that two children from Camp Happy reported inappropriate practices. A member of the police squad said that they had evidence that other people at camp were suspected of participating in sex abnormalities. You know what this reminds me of, Gibbs, is kind of a little bit of like a 1980 satanic panic.

Kind of, yeah. You know, where it almost seemed as like, you know, no matter what happened, the thought was that there could possibly be ties to Satanism or, you know, the occult or something like that. It's almost as if they thought, well, this little girl was killed, it had to have something to do with a sex crime.

Sure. One of the witnesses who came forward and provided an affidavit was an inmate at the county prison, someone who had connections with Camp Happy. This person, after hearing about Mary's arrest, wrote a letter to a friend about the actions of other young women at Camp Happy. So it sounds like maybe Camp Happy really wasn't all that happy. Well, a lot of people are saying that there was some stuff going on. Nancy's mother Margaret said she didn't believe that Nancy was murdered because of a squabble

or some type of outburst of anger. According to the Philadelphia Inquirer, Margaret said Mary's confession is untrue. She was seen looking very queer and doing a lot of peering around the corner shortly before Nancy was discovered missing. I think she was trying to get Nancy's attention. I think she lured her to that horrible road. Nancy was found three blocks away from home. And she never was a child who strayed.

I do not believe Mary's story that she hit Nancy to make her stop eating berries. There are no berries along that road. Everybody admits that Mary was a very queer girl. She never went with boys. She's masculine. and she has hands like a man. Something is wrong when a girl spends all her time on athletics. When we first moved here several years ago,

I used to see Mary playing with other girls her own age. But recently, she has been very solitary and kept to herself. When I first heard she had done this thing, I pitied her, but now, thinking it over, I despise her. It's not true. As I understand the coroner stated that there were no marks on Nancy. Her face was bruised and there were many scratches on her legs. All right.

So we got to dissect this. There's a lot here. There's a whole lot there. First of all, I thought the word queer. Yeah. Was very strange to me. You know, I'm sure that's a word that they used back in the day. And then for the longest time, that was a word that was not supposed to be used.

But it seems as though in the last year or two, that word has come. back into the vernacular and I think people are are using it again. I don't use it, but I think it's okay now. I'm not sure. I'm hearing it a lot as though it's been okayed. So you put it back in your velacular? No, I probably won't say it, but unless I'm wrong, I'm hearing a lot of people saying it in mainstream. Sure. So my assumption is, is that it's come back and it's being used and it's been okayed. And they're valacular. By certain groups.

Yeah. I just want to say volacular. But you can't. I know you keep trying, but you're not saying it correctly. It's funny, though. But, you know, this whole thing. Yeah. This whole statement to the Philadelphia Inquirer is really around how Mary acted.

Sure. And is basically saying, okay, I used to see her with other girls. Now I don't. She's solitary. Well, you know, kids go through. at at certain points in their life. She doesn't go around with boys. She's masculine.

She has hands like a man. Yeah. Well, people did call her Tarzan. She was very athletic. But you know, you can see where she's going with this kind of line. Yeah,

and this is her mom. Yeah. This is Nancy's mom. Yeah. The victim's mom. So she's leaning in to this theory. Of course. That this murder was somehow,

sexual in nature. Yeah, not just about her eating berries because there was no berries, right? I mean, she makes that very clear. Judge Harry McDavitt, a friend of Robert O'Connor, spoke to a number of papers about the case. He said that O'Connor told him that he thought Mary was mentally deranged when she confessed the murder to him. Mary denied killing Nancy, but the whole neighborhood believe she did it. Robert O'Connor didn't learn the truth until he took Mary to Marie Phillips's home. When they got home from the meeting, Mary confessed. He took her to a psychiatrist who suggested that she be sent to the Pennsylvania hospital for mental and nervous diseases. Mary stayed there for a few days, but said she didn't like the hospital. The psychiatrist advised a change of scenery

and she was taken to her grandparents' house in Merchantville shortly before she was arrested. I mean, so Mary's trying to tell everybody, this is what I've done. Yeah, and you have a number of people who heard her, but they didn't reach out to the police. Again, it goes back to that question that we've debated a number of times. What would you do if one of your children came to you and said, I've done this horrible thing? Yeah. You know, I think as a parent, each person has to try. try to answer that, you know, in their own mind.

On November 23rd, Marie Phillips was held on a $500 bail as a material witness. On the 24th, the inquirer revealed that some city hall detectives did not believe Mary was the killer. The condition of the ground would have made it very difficult. And in their words, physically impossible to ride a bicycle. They said the mud was ankle. deep. Okay, well, if that's true, you cannot ride a bicycle in ankle deep mud. Yeah, they'd be tough to ride a bike, no matter how good you are through that thick mud. Depending on the condition of the mud. But ankle deep, if it really was kind of thick,

what we're thinking, it would be tough. It's not like they had mountain bikes back then. Like you see today with the really thick tires. Oh, yeah, these would have been the real thin tires. Yeah. Tires probably. But these are, are detectives saying this. They also said that there were no tire prints in the mud. Now, the crowd could have destroyed some of the prints, but no way they destroyed all of them. Detectives looked into the man who claimed to see a girl on a bike. The farmer who Mary thought was in the field was selling produce in another part of the city. His son was in a farm building working all afternoon. The coroner didn't find any evidence of violence.

on Nancy's body besides a bruise on her head. But according to Nancy's mother, she got this bruise before she died. Nancy's mother fought an exhumation of her body saying it wouldn't do any good. So, all right. We go from Mary herself telling everybody, this is what I did.

Right. To now people questioning whether or not she's telling the truth because, you know, some of the evidence, some of the crime scene things just don't line up with what she's saying. On November 25th, Marie Phillips said she was sure that her friend was innocent of murder and that Nancy's death was accidental. The Philadelphia Inquirer wrote that Edward Panic, director of Camp Happy, told the papers on November 25th, Ms. O'Connor did a very good job with the children last summer. I could possibly say about her would be detrimental. The fact that she was reappointed to the post

of counselor after the summer of 1936 is proof enough of the caliber of her work. The children seem to be very fond of her. So he's praising her. Yeah, he's praising her and he's saying there's nothing bad that I can say about her. Now, does that mean she couldn't have struck this young girl and caused her death? No, it doesn't mean that. Right. But you have. You have. You have. You have. You have. I don't have. You have a conflict about events transpiring at camp happy. Sure. Now, is the director of the camp probably going to come out and say,

oh yeah, I knew about this, this, this and this. But I didn't do nothing about it? Right. Probably not. Right.

But who do you believe? An inmate who says there was a lot of, you know, funky stuff going on or the camp director and some of the other people that worked there. Right. So, you know,

it's just all things to weigh. in what is going to be a very strange case. I mean, it just, it just is. Attorney William Gray announced on November 26 that Mary wouldn't be convicted on the word of an ex-convict and a couple of kids. He made this prediction after Mayor Wilson failed to issue the warrants for Mary and Marie Phillips on sex crimes charges. So the mayor was pretty high on this, right?

Really wanting to go after this. Yeah, he did. He went as far as far as. is kind of laying it out to papers that this is what he believed happened. He implicated Marie, but then didn't, you know, file charges or issue warrants. Gray confirmed that he was retained by Mrs. Phillips. He also said that he ordered Marie as well as Mary's mother, not to speak to reporters. That's probably smart. Pretty good advice normally, right? Two hearings took place on November 29th, one for Mary's murder charge and one for the charges of alleged sexual misconduct.

Joseph Glenn was the first witness. He testified about finding Nancy's body on Labor Day, September 6th, between 415 and 430. He said he was driving his car with his son and two other children. He was near Nolan's Woods and saw a collapsed oil drum in his path. The mayor then presented the oil drum. So we keep saying the mayor Gibbs, but he's like the prosecutor too. His role is multi. Faceted.

Yeah. Yeah, he's got a lot going on. Mr. Glenn confirmed that it was the same oil drum covering Nancy's body. He said he attempted CPR. After finding Nancy under the oil drum, he then drove her to the hospital where she was pronounced dead. The second witness was the undertaker, John Inion. He testified that there were marks of what he called exterior violence on Nancy's body.

He presented some original notes from his examination, which showed that Nancy had a one-inch bruise under her chin and bruises on her eyes and her nose. Nancy also had bruises on her thigh and on the front and center of one of her upper legs. There were four or five bruises and each was the size of a 10.000. 10 cent piece. He said there were similar marks on her right arm. She had 10 to 12 superficial scratches between her ankle and knee and a black mark on her neck where it joined her body. Inion said he did not give this evidence at the coroner's inquest, but he did tell Detective Warren Murphy before the funeral. He didn't speak at the corner's inquest because he wasn't called as a witness. He didn't tell the coroner about the marks because, as he said, he knows much more about it than I do.

Yeah, but hearing all that just doesn't sound like it was a couple punches. You're talking about the number of bruises, the superficial scratches. Yeah, I get that. I get that. Now, could some of the bruises have come from Nancy hitting the ground after she was hit on the chin? Could have. The scratches, maybe? I don't know.

It just seems like a lot, though. But I'm focusing in on this corner. So the Undertaker is right when he says that the corner knows a lot more about this stuff than I do. I didn't feel like it was my place to tell the coroner. So why didn't the coroner? Noted. And who would have gotten the body first? Well, I would think the coroner, right?

The coroner has to do his or her work. And then the body would be given to the undertaker, right? So that begs the question. Were the bruises and scratches and everything there, you know, at the point where the coroner received the body? Did it happen during the examination, did some of it? Or during transport to the undertaker? I don't know. But there are questions, I think, that are valid.

They have to be asked. Witness Anna Hunter testified that she saw Nancy at 1.40 p.m. on September 6th, Her daughter, Jean, was playing with Nancy and Mary in an alley. Several witnesses testified about seeing Mary and Nancy that afternoon. One witness saw Nancy following Mary on her bike. Okay, so to me, that seems pretty damaging because it seems to follow Mary's account and confession. Mrs. Glenn testified that Mary told her she hadn't seen Nancy after 1.30 and that other people

also said they hadn't seen her, then neighborhoods started a search which ended with Joseph Glenn, finding Nancy's body. Neighbor John Dunleavy testified next. He told the court that Mary said that after hiding Nancy's body and burning her gloves,

she went to her neighbor's house and washed the mud off her hands, shoes and stockings. John Dunleavy testified that Mary came into his house and asked to use the bathroom. Now he said that she often visited his house. So when she asked, he said yes. She laughed a few minutes later. He didn't tell the

police about this at first. Oh, for him, it probably wasn't out of the ordinary. Well, and why would he think to tell the police? Unless you knew that they thought Mary had something to do with this child's death. At that point, then yeah, you're going to say, oh, by the way, I need to let you know this happen. Detective Murphy testified about Mary's confession on November 21st, but he was interrupted when defense attorney William Gray and Mayor Wilson got into what a bunch of papers described as a bitter personal clash. And it was basically Gray accusing Captain Murphy of instructing Detective Murphy. There's a lot of Murphy's going on here. Yeah, we mentioned it. There was four people, two of them named Murphy. The mayor said, I don't believe Captain Murphy did any such thing. You're just trying to make

publicity go on with the case. This is just your regular method. Gray shot back with, well, with a judge like you, who is judge, prosecutor and everything else, I've got to be on my toes. So this guy is the mayor, the prosecutor, and apparently the judge as well. He wears a, a lot of hats. A lot of hats, sir. Wilson said, then you admit that that's the method you use. And Gray said, why you rat, you dirty rat. Oh, you dirty rat, you. And it sounds like a, uh, the old gangster movie. Yeah, or that clip they do in Home Alone. Okay. So that's where you know it from. That's where I know it from. So these guys got into like a real argument. I mean, they were telling each other to shut up, shut your mouth. Wilson at one point said, well, at least I haven't been divorced yet.

This is in the middle of court. Wow, man. Someday I'll get you where I want you. And when I do, I'll crack you and crack you right. Name the place right now and I'll be there. So he's threatening the mayor. Yeah. Who is the judge, prosecutor, cab driver.

I don't know what all this guy did. He does it all in the city, man. Back in the day. And then he's basically saying, hey, we'll rumble. You tell me, you'll tell me when and where and I'll be there. I'll drop you where you stand. I guess it was Detective Murphy who calmed things down. He continued testifying about the confession.

According to Murphy, Mary refused to sign and asked to speak to her grandfather to talk to him about getting an attorney and money for bail. And I did find that odd. She seemed to want to confess to numerous people, including this detective. But when it came time to sign her confession, it almost seems like at that point she said, oh, I shouldn't do this. Yeah, something my stomach's saying, stop now. Yeah, don't do this. I need an attorney. The sex charge hearing took place after the homicide hearing. Captain Murphy testified that he interviewed a witness named Joseph Costello on November 26th,

who was an inmate at the House of Corrections. He was charged with drunkenness and disorderly conduct. in the summer of 1937, this Costello guy said that he was told by a guy that worked at Camp Happy about an incident that he saw at Camp involving Mary O'Connor and Marie Phillips. Now, this guy that told him this also had a long history of arrests. He actually spent one of his jail terms working at Camp Happy. That's the best use of time. Well, I don't know about use of time, but I think as a parent, I'm now reconsidering my application to Camp Happy for my child. I'm not sure again, how happy is Camp Happy.

Well, you know, you've got a bunch of, let's say, you know, guys and girls who are college students. Okay. I get that. That's like a lot of camps. Now you're telling me that people are doing their time, quote unquote, serving as whatever. Yeah. in whatever capacity at camp happy, I'm not as happy about camp happy once I find that out.

Yeah. I mean, I guess I'd want to know what they were in for, I guess. Like this guy was in for being drunk and disorderly. Yeah, I get it. It didn't say what all of his arrests were for. So they could have been.

But even, you know, if you got a bunch of drunken disorderly conduct, uh, arrest, do I want you around my five, six, seven,

eight year old? No. Especially if you're bringing in alcohol. I probably don't. Have a sip of this, junior. I'll take my business down the road to camp kind of happy. Not truly happy. We're just kind of happy.

Let's just keep it real life, right? That's the real life camp, kind of happy. Well, if we were talking in real life, it'd be called Camp Get Out of My Hair for a Week. Yeah. Is what it would really be called. Yeah, that's true. So this guy that had worked at Camp Happy,

sent an affidavit to the mayor, accusing the two women of certain abnormal practices. That's what it said in all the papers, in quotes, certain abnormal practices. And it was really based on this affidavit that the mayor, you know, went forward with these charges on Marie and Mary. This guy did testify that in July 1937, he caught Mary O'Connor and Marie Phillips in an unnatural act. He testified that he wrote a letter to a friend. about having seen the women do an unnatural act. So we're taking a convict's word on something that happened back at camp that he thinks might

have been an unnatural act. Well, you know, an unnatural act is kind of a very broad term. It really is. If you think about it. Now, in 1937, putting it into context, my assumption is that he's saying they were having sex with each other. Yeah. You know.

But in 1937, you don't. don't come out and say that. No, I guess. Because he was asked to elaborate at one point, and he said, you know what, I've talked too much already. He refused to say exactly what he saw, but he said that he would speak about it in private. The judge said that he couldn't hold the women without knowing exactly what they did. If he couldn't substantiate the charge, he made in the affidavit, or if he had lost his nerve, there was nothing left for me. the judge speaking, to do but discharge these defendants. I mean, you made these claims.

Why can't you finish it through? It seems so strange that this guy, what, is too shy to say in front of a court that these women were kissing or they were doing more than that or whatever they were doing. Or does he not want to be specific because it didn't really happen? And so he didn't know exactly what to say. It's easy to say on natural act because that could be all kinds of different things. Yeah, it could. But he wouldn't do it.

So on November 29th, the charges against Marie and Mary were dropped due to lack of evidence. The judge threatened to have this guy arrested on perjury charges if the police provided an affidavit. This guy spoke with the mayor and said that what he said was true, but he was nervous at the hearing. And you know as the prosecution. you're not happy with this guy. No. Because you went forward on all of this based on his affidavit. Then you get to court and the guy is too nervous to, you know, go into any type of details.

The mayor did continue the $500 bail against Marie Phillips as a material witness to the homicide. And he continued holding Mary on $5,000 bail. I mean, this guy is. the most powerful person in Philadelphia. Because, you know, I said the judge, how can he not be the judge? Doesn't, isn't the judge the one that makes the decision on bail and all that? He does. I'm kind of perplexed about it, to be honest with you. On December 1st, Mary posted bail and was released. She returned to Merchantville to be with her family. $5,000 in 1937 is a boatload of money. Yeah, it really was. What do you think that would be today? Oh. Beepo, people, people, people.

It's a $250,000. All right. We'll see how close you are. Yeah. People always let me know. I do think it's a lot of money. It is. Now, I think in that situation,

you're going to get a lot of family coming forward to help post that. And I don't know if they had to post the whole $5,000. Did they have bail bondsmen in 1937? I really don't know. I'm trying to remember when the Great Depression was. Yeah. My understanding was that it lasted during, the 1930s, right? It might have started in, in the 20s or late 20s, but it was going on,

I thought, throughout most of the 30s. Yeah. So for a family to come up with the bell money, that amount of bell money, pretty impressive. During that time, yeah. Yeah. And of course, there was no details about how they came up with it or, you know, anything like that. On December 8th, a second corner's inquest declared Nancy's murder, death by drowning. So we've gone from accidental death, to death by drowning. And on December 14th, a grand jury indicted Mary O'Connor on charges of murder and manslaughter. The jury was selected on February 14, 1938 for the trial of Mary Keenan O'Connor. She pleaded not guilty to murder and manslaughter.

The state said that they might seek the death penalty if Mary was convicted of first-degree murder. Judge Joseph Sloan oversaw the trial, and it was, reported Gibbs in a lot of papers that this was his very first murder case. So I've joked a lot about the mayor. He's obviously not the judge in this thing. He might have been, it sounds like, kind of all encompassing in the proceedings leading up to the trial.

Right. Like all powerful is the way it sounds. But, Oz, but now obviously we have a judge here. Mary's defense was led by William Gray, who we've talked about. Charles Gordon led the prosecution. Testimony began on February 15th.

Mary's defense argued that she hit Nancy accidentally and left her at the scene, but not in the puddle. But her defense offered no explanation for how Nancy got into the puddle. And I'm still stuck on this word accident, accidentally. To me, when you hit somebody accidentally, it's like you turn around, you didn't know somebody. was there and you hit him. Yeah.

You hit a five-year-old to make them stop doing something. To me, that's not an accident. No, I don't think so either. If it was out of anger, sure, maybe it was not premeditated. It was just an act of rage or, but that's, but to me that an accident, they don't equate. No. They don't equal up.

And it seems to me as though the defense has got a real uphill battle here, right? They have Mary's confession. And I thought the confession included leaving Nancy in the puddle and covering her with the oil drum. Yeah. So now they're saying, okay, she didn't do that part. But we don't know how Nancy got in the puddle. Mary testified on the 17th for two and a half hours. She first spoke about the day of the murder.

It's a lot of talking. Two and a half hours. Two and a half hours? Yeah, I mean, think about the Johnny Depp trial. and Amber Heard. Wow. They were on the stand for a long time.

They really were. Two and a half hours to them would have been a cake walk. According to Mary, one of her bicycle tires was soft. She took her bike to a service station for air. Remember when service stations used to give out free air? I do.

Now I think you got to put like a quarter in there. It's probably gone up by now. I don't know. Probably a lot more than that. I don't know. I have a compressor at my house. So I don't need it. But that was kind of a big thing, right?

Everybody would go to the server. station to fill up their bicycle tires, whatever, because there was free air there. They're just giving it out. I think you have to swipe your credit card and it's a buck and a quarter. And you better hurry up and fill up all four of your tires before the pump runs out. Or you got to do it again? You want to get so much time to do that. Mary testified that she let Gene Hunter ride her bike.

She walked with Jean and left her at the entrance to a dirt road leading to Nolan's farm. She said she didn't know that Nancy was following her. Mary was walking along the dirt road to reach a paved road so that she could ride her bike. She was straddling the bike, but her feet were walking on the ground. Then she fell down and coins fell out of her pocket. She heard someone call out and saw Nancy. Nancy started pestering her for a ride. Mary said no.

But she told Nancy that if she helped pick up the coin, she would give her a penny. But she said Nancy kept ever. asking for a ride and Mary hit her. Mary told the court, I just turned around. For some reason or other, I struck the youngster with the back of my hand. She fell down. I've knelt down and felt her pulse. I don't know what happened.

I thought she was dead. I got a tin somewhere. I don't know where. And I put it over her. So it just appears that to Mary, everything happened fast, right? She was frustrated. She turned around, hit her with. the back of her hand. Nancy went down on the ground. Okay, that part I understand. I'm not saying

it's right. No, no, I know. I understand what she's saying happened. It's the part after that that I'm having a real struggle with. I mean, I'm not saying I don't struggle with an adult hitting a five-year-old child because I do. But the part about, you know, I knelt down, felt her pulse. I thought she was dead. And because of that, what, I got scared. So I found something and I put it over her. Right. Now, there's no mention of the puddle, right, at all. But my thought Gibbs is that the majority of the time, somebody is hit with the back of someone's hand, even a five year old.

It's not going to kill them. Now, could they fall and hit their head on something and die? Yes. That's a possibility. Yeah, it just seems there's got to be more to the story. Yeah, there has to be because the way that she's telling it just does not make sense to me. And obviously, she hasn't addressed the puddle at all. But the defense is saying she didn't put her in the puddle.

When asked if she hit Nancy deliberately, Mary said, oh no, I wouldn't strike a little child. When asked if she turned Nancy face down into the puddle, she said no. But then they started asking her about her confession. Mary testified that Captain Murphy typed her statement. He read it out to her and she corrected him about the mud puddle. According to Mary, Murphy responded, well, Mary, I thought it should be put that way so everybody reading it could understand. Okay.

So now we're getting a little bit more information. We don't know if it's true or not, but we're getting more information as to maybe why she's not saying that she put Nancy in the mud puddle. Right. Because according to her, she didn't confess to doing that. That was all Captain Murphy. Apparently, Captain Murphy asked her to write down her corrections. But Mary was vague about what corrections, if any, she made.

She refused to sign the statement until she spoke to her father. Mary said that after she was taken to the city jail, she told Detective Warren Murphy. She was tired, but he refused to leave the room. The state responded that Murphy spoke with Mary throughout the night because she said she couldn't sleep. So as in a lot of cases, right, you have one person saying something, a person on the other side saying something different. Very normal. But what never changes Gibbs is at the end of the day, it's all up to what, what either a jury or a judge, depending on the type of trial. Right.

Beliefs is the truth. Under cross-examination by the prosecution, Mary said she didn't think the 10 put into evidence was the 10 she covered Nancy's body with. She couldn't remember where she got the oil drum from. She again denied turning Nancy face down into the mud puddle. The defense had 19 character witnesses testify on Mary's behalf. The prosecution presented both Mary and Mary. Marie Phillips's statements as their main argument. Why wouldn't they? They're confessions.

Yeah. You'd want to make sure the judge and jury heard those. And I think you would want to craft your entire narrative, you know, or your case with those as your centerpiece. Yeah. It's not one confession, what is one confession, but it's coming from two different people. You've also got her father. You've got the detective. So there's a lot to work. with there. Dr. William Wadsworth testified about examining Nancy's body. He said there were hard to identify bruises on her neck. He said it wouldn't have been possible for Nancy to have inhaled so much mud and a small stone unless someone held her down in the mud puddle. Yeah, I don't think it's something she would voluntarily swallow. Although I have disclosed before that I ate paper towels as a kid, so

Well, you're just weird. I am. I was. I don't need them now. Nancy's parents and brother testified. Other witnesses testified about seeing Mary on the day of the murder. Prosecutor Charles Gordon told the court in his closing argument. The only inference you can come to is that the child, with its face down in the water so hard that inhaled some mud and a pebble, was held there.

If Mary O'Connor held that child. child's neck down in the water. Members of the jury, that's as clear a case of murder as anything I have ever heard. And I would agree with that. If that's what really happened, that is absolutely murder. There's no doubt about it. I think the question gives is, is that really what happened? Well, only Mary knows.

And as I think about this case, I'm wondering, you know, what would it be without Mary confession to Marie without her confession to the detective, which may or may not have or should or should not have included the mud puddle. Right. What would the authorities have? Not much. The fact that she was seen with the girl by some witnesses. Judge Sloan told the jury before deliberation. If you believe the testimony of the defendant, it is your duty to acquit her.

So there were four possible verdicts. First degree murder with the death penalty or life in prison. Second degree murder, voluntary manslaughter or involuntary manslaughter. The jury ended up choosing none of these options. So this case is by no means over. And obviously we have a lot more to pack into part two. We'll discuss the shocking verdict of Mary O'Connor's murder trial. a legislative committee's investigation of the jury.

And the reason Mary made headlines again more than 30 years later after this trial. So Gibbs, as we wrap up this episode, you know, obviously a little bit of a cliffhanger, right? Leaving us hanging. Leaving everybody hanging a little bit. You know, it's kind of hard. We always say that when you have a multi-parter to figure out where to stop. This seemed like the most logical place to stop. obviously we know that the jury is going to come back with a kind of a shocking verdict yeah we'll talk

about it in in episode two but as we kind of wrap up this part one it's such a strange case you know you have a five year old little girl who was tragically killed yeah you know was it murder and if so was it merry you know again this case is clouded because of her confession. Right. She's admitting to things, things that are very damning. When you admit to striking a child and then you admit to kneeling down, feeling for a pulse and believing that the child is dead, you admit to covering the child up and leaving.

Yeah. I mean, it sounds like at a minimum, you have manslaughter. Yeah, at a minimum, you cause the death. Yeah. Now, to what degree? In most instances, that's what we'd be trying to figure out or a jury would be trying to figure out. To what degree of murder? Right.

Do we assign, you know, your blame or, you know, however you want to say it. But it's why this case is kind of shocking. Yeah. And then obviously, you know, time goes by. There are some other events that happen. You know, all of that will get into. in part two. I can't wait for part two.

All right, we got some voicemails, though. You want to check those out? Let's hear them. Hi, this is Erica down in San Diego. I was just calling to let you guys know that I had just finished watching, or listening to, sorry, listening to Richard Ramirez, the night soccer case when my AC broke. And there's one that I had to sleep with the windows and doors, like, unlocked. We have a screen door for our back.

I slept with my gun and I don't think I got to sleep that night, but I just wanted to tell you guys, I probably would have slept peacefully if I had not been listening to you guys. So thanks for a peaceless restful night of restless night of sleep. So keep up your guys with good work. Take care. I can see where a case like Ramirez would scare you if you're forced to leave a bunch of windows open,

the back door open with just a screen door. Yeah. That screen door is not stopping anybody. No. Especially Richard Ramirez. But, you know, those cases and, you know, you get into even some of the unsolved cases, but, you know, the Golden State Killer, you know, the pillowcase rapist, which we did, you know, not that long ago on unsolved.

Right. But these cases where people break into homes. That's very scary stuff because why, your home is your sanctuary. Sure is. It's your safe place. Yeah. You're supposed to feel, you know, warm and cozy. But these people make it tough for us.

They do. To feel that way. Hi, Mike and Debbie. This is Amy from Queens, New York. I just listened to the latest episode about Olga and her friend. And someone mentioned at the end, who boils hot dog? Everyone in New York boils hot dog. If you've ever heard of a dirty water dog, you know what I'm talking about.

And I'm suggesting a case. It's from Floral Park, New York. It's probably the only murder. Well, not the only, but maybe one of three murders that have been in this town that's just outside of the border of Queens. It happened, I believe, in the 90s on Carnation Avenue. I don't know the name of the person, but the guy was put away. All right, bye.

Hey, do you know my friends, Doug and Carrie Heffernan? They're from Queens. He's actually the king of queens. Yeah, actually. From what I remember. So, yeah, obviously the boiling of the hot dogs has serviced in now three episodes. Oh, for sure. But it goes back to the episode right before that one.

And I think the observation that was being made in that voicemail was, and you made it as well. Why are you boiling hot dogs when you're out in the kind of the wilderness? Right. And you would have to make a fire to boil the hot dogs anyway. Why not just cook the dogs over the fire? I think was the whole point of it. I actually really like boiled hot dogs. I also really enjoy my hot dogs in the microwave.

I cook them a lot just in the microwave, which makes me strange. I have since I was a youngster. I've done that before. You take the knife and put a little slice down the middle so it doesn't blow up. Because when I was young, the microwave was something I was allowed to use. You can't really do too much unless you put like aluminum foil. or a fork in there, which I've seen people do. Can happen.

But thanks for that case suggestion. We'll definitely check it out. Hey, Mike and Gibby. This is Andrew Ramsey out here in North Carolina. I hope you are both doing great. I've been about four months now, and I just signed up for Patreon. I also signed up my brother as a birthday again since he's the one to introduce me to the show. I've been trying to spread the words to all my true crime living friends since.

Anyway, keep up the great work. And y'all stay safe and keep your own time taking. Man, that's awesome. That is awesome. Do that for yourself, but then also do it for your brother? Yeah. Now, you would do that for yourself, but would you do it for one of your brother? That, I don't know.

I don't even know if you'd do it for yourself, to be honest. How could you ask me that? Now it's out there. Now I have to give a response. I should just call one of them and say, is this something Givie would do or has ever done? Yeah, this is what I do. Breaking, breaking up. But that is very cool.

Very, very cool. All right, we had some mailbag. Aaron sent us a Harley Chip and said sorry to you, Gibby, because she ate all the Twizzlers. What? Yeah. She got them and said, you know what? I waited too long to put them in the mail, so I ate them. Who can resist, right?

Yeah. That's okay. We also received a crocheted Ed Gein nipple belt. Yeah. From E. Gein fashion. Well, very, very fancy. It's striking. Yeah.

That's all I'm going to say. I can see you wearing that maybe on your next model shoot. You think? Maybe on your next cover. Yeah. I was going to wear it to the, you know, when I got to get up on stage. Well, yeah, or make it a part of your next outfit, the stage outfit, your next routine. Holly sent us a book of Texas Sangs.

Pretty cool. We'll have to dip into some of those. Yeah. Probably some you already say. Was that one right there? Got to dip into some of those? No. Oh, that's just a furgy saying.

Yeah. I think that is said maybe in all kinds of different places, not just in Texas. I actually leaf through it and there were some things I had never heard in my life. Really? Oh my gosh. We'll have to go through it. Maybe we'll do some on Patreon or something. But sayings that I have never heard.

All right, buddy. So that's it for another episode of True Crime All the Time. We'll be back next week with Part 2 of Mary Keenan O'Connor. So for Mike and Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.