True Crime All The Time - Melisa McManus

Episode Date: May 1, 2023

On May 6th, 1993, an infant’s body was found inside a trash bag along the Susquehanna River in York County, Pennsylvania. A month later, a 17-year-old girl named Melisa McManus was charged with murdering her own child, allegedly with the help of three accomplices.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Melisa McManus. Once confronted by the police, Melisa told a number of different stories about what happened. They ranged from confessions to saying she was never pregnant. But friends and family came forward to say she was pregnant and that she had even shown them a baby picture. All of this turned out to be a ruse designed to throw people off the truth of what really happened.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 331 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. How are you? Hey, I'm doing okay. How about you? I'm doing all right. It's been a rough week. We lost our oldest dog, Bodie.

Yeah, rough time. Yeah, rough time for the family. But, uh, you know, all the pet owners out there who have gone through that, they know what that's like. It's tough, but it's something you have to deal with. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Dave McMullen. Hey, Dave. Terry Justice.

What's going on, Terry? Maria Lucas. Hey, Maria. She jumped out of our highest level. That's awesome. Pierce Franklin. Hi, Pierce. Amy Colombo.

What's going on, Amy? Nagy Esther. Hey, Nagy. Victoria H. I appreciate that, Victoria. Heather. Good old Heather. Yep.

Lissa Armour jumped out of our highest level. Look at you, Lissa. Basilio Gallo. Ah, Basilio. J.H. What's up, Jay? Rachel jumped out at our highest level. Hey, Rachel, thank.

Christine Ake. Ake. Ake breaky. Grounded Tarot. What's going on, Tara? Annie and Jason Dillon. Hey, there's the Dillans. Salina.

Appreciate that, Selena. Summer. Hey, Summer. Jeannie Ote. Ote. Kelly Hoag jumped out at our highest level. There's Hogue. Was that you doing Eddie Murphy doing Gumby?

I did. I kind of caught that. And last but not least, Anna Chamber. Hey, Anna. And then if we go back into the vault. This week we selected Lisa Sangalang. Sangalang, that's a fun name. Yeah, fun name to say.

We also had a great PayPal donation from Teresa Fisher. Awesome, Teresa. But speaking of Patreon, on our weekly Patreon, I was telling a story about my dog Bodie. Yeah. And a lot of listeners will probably remember, but back early on when you and I were doing the BTK episodes, I left the door open. You did. To the basement. and Bodie walked down and you can hear him walking.

Tap dancing. Almost tap dancing for a while during that episode. A lot of people brought it up back when it happened. Yeah. Good memory. Yeah, good memory. That was him. Hey, real quick, CrimeCon, if you haven't signed up yet, go ahead and go out there,

sign up and use our code T-Cat for a discount. Yeah, yeah, you get 10% off your standard badge at crimecon.com. Gibbs, we have an episode out right now on Unsolved where we're talking about the 2007 disappearance of Lee Cutler. Lee was 18, a high school senior, spent the night with some friends, dropped a friend off after that, and then vanished. But they found his car. Never found him.

No. But his car was found pretty far away from where he lived. So there's a lot of intrigue, a lot of mystery. we'll get into all of it. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I'm ready. We are talking about Melissa McManus, a person who listeners are going to hate by the end of this episode. Absolutely.

Because on May 6th, 1993, an infant's body was found inside a trash bag along the Susquehanna River in York County, Pennsylvania. A month later, a 17-year-old girl named. Melissa McManus was charged with murdering her own child, allegedly with the help of three accomplices. So we're kind of setting it up. We'll get into all the details. Melissa Ann McManus was born on June 28th, 1976.

Before her arrest, Melissa lived with her grandmother, Betty McMannis in Holtwood, which is in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. Melissa has a twin sister named Wendy and a younger brother, named Scott. Now, you have brothers, but you don't have any twins, right? Twins. You're not a twin. I'm not a twin. Okay. Melissa's father is Roland Scott McManus.

And according to the intelligence or journal, local newspaper, Melissa was abandoned by her mother. A neighbor who asked to remain anonymous told the paper that Melissa's father was there sometimes. But it was Betty who raised the children. And this is something you hear quite a bit, right? Grandparents stepping in to help raise a child because one or both of the parents are not able to for for different reasons. What I do think is different here is that you have the mother abandoning the children. Right.

Not that it doesn't happen. Mothers do abandon their kids, but I think more often than not, you hear this about fathers. I think percentage wise, more often it's a father who leaves than a mother. Oh, and the abandonment, sure. Yeah. Melissa didn't have the best home life, which was discussed at her trial. We'll get into that. She left school in the ninth grade and became pregnant when she was just 16 years old. Her boyfriend at the time was 19 year old Tony Edwards. In 1992, Melissa told Tony some friends and a few family members that she was pregnant. Several of them saw changes in her body throughout the pregnancy,

and she talked about the pregnancy and other topics like baby names. However, some individuals like her father and grandmother claimed that they weren't aware that Melissa was pregnant. News to them. Later on. Yeah. Yeah. It was news to them.

And then suddenly in the spring of 1993, Melissa was no longer pregnant and she gave a number of different explanations about where the baby was. And I mentioned it earlier, but on May 6, 1993, the body of an infant boy was found in a plastic garbage bag

along the York County side of the Susquehanna River near the Norman Wood Bridge. The infant was found after the water was lowered because below the Holtwood Dam to search for two missed. fisherman. It was a man named Charles Coimann who found the baby around 10 a.m. He was there to see if he could find anything after the water level was lowered. He spotted a dark colored upright bag tied

shut. He kicked it and could tell something was inside. He opened it up and saw a baby's head inside. He thought it was a doll at first, according to the intelligents or journal. So, you know, we talk about this quite a bit, right? An unsuspecting person finding a gruesome scene, a body, you know, whatever it is. Horrific. And, and this one, they're not even looking for this infant. They're looking for two missing fishermen. That's what causes the, the water level to be lowered.

And then this guy comes along and he's just kind of searching for, you know, whatever he can find. Yeah, he's just doing a little scavenger. Yeah, I've actually done that myself. It, it lakes where they lower the lake in the wintertime. You can walk out and find fishing lures. You can find all kinds of good stuff. People drop, you know, valuables things. There's that watch I dropped. Yeah. There's my sunglasses. There's a wedding ring. You can, you definitely can find things. And I'm sure that's what this guy was doing. Never thought he'd find what he did. No, absolutely. Absolutely not. When he got out of bed that morning, he thought, you know what, it might be a good day to go scavenging.

Well, sometimes you find more than what you're prepared to find. How do you get that out of your head? I don't think you do. I don't think you do. And especially, you know, because this was a, you know, a very young infant baby. I mean, it's, you know, the description that a lot of people give because we've heard it time and time again is I thought it was a manikin. Yeah. Now here we're talking about a baby. So he said, I thought it was a doll. Sure. Yeah. It just really puts it into, you know, some perspective. So he picked this bag up and carried it to a

parking lot where some Pennsylvania fish and boat commission officers were standing. He later told the Lancaster new era. I told one of them there was a baby in the back. And he laughed at me. He thought I was kidding, but when they looked in the bag, that ended that. I bet it did. Real quick. Now, I don't know what would cause somebody to laugh just because they thought he was joking around with them. Probably thinking, it's unbelievable.

You're crazy. There's no baby in that bag. Well, I get it. I joke around. Everybody jokes around. To me, if somebody comes up and says that, that doesn't scream joke, joke, funny. ha ha, especially if you're some sort of law enforcement officer, but I get it. That was his reaction.

The infant was believed to be just a few days old. Lancaster County coroner Dr. Barry Walt said he was born at full term and still had the umbilical cord attached. He estimated that he had been in the water for two to four days. But the autopsy failed to determine a cause of death. The police had hoped that the autopsy would determine. if the infant was murdered because I think right off the bat, his death was labeled suspicious. Absolutely, it was.

And how could it not be? You know, when we talk about unsolved cases, okay, we're usually talking about somebody anywhere from 15 to whatever, 60, let's say. In that range, could they have an accident? could they be walking along a body of water, slip, hit their head and fall in? Absolutely. Yeah. That could happen. This is a very young baby.

Most likely is not crawling out of the house to a body of water. I'm not saying it's impossible. But I think you'd have to err on the side that this is a suspicious death. Something's not adding up here. Add on top of that, the fact that the impact that the. biblical court is still attached. Yeah, that's, that's the real thing, right? That's got to really kind of cement it in the mind of law enforcement officials because what does that mean? Yeah, I mean, I think you think right away

that the birth of the baby didn't happen at a hospital because that would have been taken care of. Right. So that leads into a birth at home, a child not wanted, possibly. It leads you down those types of avenues. Wayne Ross, a forensic pathologist, determined that the infant was anywhere from three weeks to three months old. Police in Lancaster and York counties were seeking information about any women who had recently had a baby and could not account for their child.

Concerned citizens called the Lancaster State Police, which helped them obtain the names of three women who might have been the mothers of the unidentified baby. the three women lived in York and Lancaster counties. So I get it, right? This news gets out. Sure. People are concerned.

They're horrified. But people came up with three names. Really quick. Really quickly about, you know, who the mother could have been. Now, one of these people is going to be right. Yeah. As we're going to find out. My thought is, though, what about the other two?

I was thinking of the same thing when we were doing the research. What about the other two? How did they come up with, well, it could be this person. Yeah. You know, I always wonder about that in those situations. Is it, did they have a vendetta against somebody? Somebody had wronged them. They were mad.

So they were going to throw their name out to police. I don't know. But you know how the public will treat this type of scenario, right? I mean, say the word baby was found dead. The public would come out more for that than they would any other type of case. Yeah. I mean, you want people to call in tips. I just wonder how they arrived at the decision that these other two women could have possibly

been the mothers of the baby. On June 29th, 1993, 17-year-old Melissa Ann McMannis was arrested in charge with criminal homicide and criminal conspiracy. Melissa turned 17 the day before her arrest. at a press conference on the 30th, Lancaster County DA Joseph Madenspocker said that Melissa killed the baby, simply because she didn't want the baby and said he was 100% positive. She is the mother.

This is according to the Lancaster new era. Now, figuring out that she's the mother, that's not going to be too hard. They can do a DNA test and prove that. coming out and saying that she killed the baby because she didn't want it. Right. Yeah. So that has to come from maybe some interrogation, some talking, all that.

It just frustrates me thinking about it. Just didn't want it. There's so many other people that want a baby would take that baby and a heartbeat. Yeah. You know, just, I know there's been some articles I read over the years that, like, some different municipalities say if you don't want your baby drop it off with the local firehouse you know at least the baby stays alive and they're fine a find a home for it you know yeah i mean don't do something like this there are so many couples that can't have children want

children would take that baby yeah that's what they'd be in their car driving wherever they had to go i don't mean you've talked about the the china arnold um case here in dayton ohio way back when. Oh, one of the worst cases. My gosh. I mean, the baby was, what, around 28 days old? And she decided she didn't want the baby. And she put it in the marketplace. Yeah. Yeah, just a horrible case. Yeah. At first, investigators couldn't determine if the baby was still born or if he was born alive. But Madden Spocker said that the evidence showed the baby was born alive and suffocated. After the autopsy, investigators established an age range of three weeks to three months. months. But Madden Spocker told the public that investigators determined this wasn't quite true.

The evidence showed that the baby was probably disposed of within hours or within one to two days of being born. That makes sense to me. Thinking that the abilical court is still attached, it's going to be kind of hard to hide a baby for three months. Yeah, I thought that the three week to three month estimate seemed a little bit odd. Yeah. For someone who didn't want a baby, but yet felt as though they didn't want to go through the other options that were available and wanted to dispose of it, for the lack of a better term, you would think that would happen very quickly in a matter of days if it was going

to happen. Madden Spocker described Melissa as a transient. type person. At her arraignment on the 29th, she told a judge that she was unemployed and was not attending school. The district attorney announced that investigators believe the baby was born at her home in Holtwood and that she had gone to live with her stepmom in Redding. They also announced that they had identified the father who was not a suspect. Madden Spocker said that the police hoped to make more arrests in connection with the baby's death. So I think that clues you. I think that clues you you in right there, that they're already on the track that she didn't do this by herself.

She had help. She had accomplices. Tony Edwards, Melissa's boyfriend, didn't interview with the intelligence or journal after Melissa was arrested. He talked about her pregnancy. In their relationship, he said the last time he saw Melissa was in April when she was still pregnant. He told the paper, I met her at a friend's house in Lancaster.

She was there with an old boyfriend who was maddened. her and he grabbed her by the back of her hair. I grabbed him and put him into the wall and told him if he ever hit a female in front of me again. We were going to be fighting. She went out into the hall crying and I went out to talk to her. After that, we started seeing each other. I took her into my apartment on Charlotte Street and told her to feel at home and everything was fine for about two months until we split up for about three days. So he's relaying to the paper, you know, the story of how they met. She moved in with him.

But then they split up. But then he said they reconciled after Melissa called him and told him that she was pregnant. Tony said, I was so happy I was doing jumping jack. I ran home and we talked about what we were going to do. So he was excited about being a dad. Yeah. I mean, according to him, now this is after the fact. Sure.

But according to him, if he's being truthful, he was very excited. He also said that he told Melissa he was against her having an abortion. And she said she didn't want one. When he brought up adoption, she said she didn't want to give up her child. So if this is true what Melissa said, then it sounds like she too, at the time this conversation occurred, wanted to have this child. Yeah. Now, obviously, we know something changed, but we're going to have to try to figure out what

that was. And why that was. Exactly. When one of them lost their job, they got another apartment near a hospital and a clinic, Melissa seemed like she was doing okay with her pregnancy. And then after a couple of months, they both lost their jobs when the business they were working at shut down. they also had unspecified trouble with their landlord okay well if you got no job you're probably having a hard time paying rent you're going to have problems with your landlord's not going to be happy no they got they want that money that's kind of their whole reason for doing what they do edwards talked about the problems in their relationship stating she had some friends down in holtwood who said we could come down and stay with them for a while when we went to holtwood that was when everything

went further down the drain. I'm not going to blame everything on her. Some of it was my fault too. And I found that to be a very interesting statement, you know, probably pretty truthful. Yeah. Because she's been arrested at the point where he's giving this interview. He could have, you know, laid everything on her. Not not about what happened to the baby. I'm talking about what happened with the relationship. He could have painted her to be. you know, a monster, but he didn't. He actually admitted that, you know, some of the things that went wrong in the relationship were his fault as well. Yeah, I mean, you keep in mind, she's 16 at this point, pregnant. Doesn't sound like she had a lot of support. No, no, we talked

about her bad home life. And, and he's not that old either. He's 19. Right. What type of jobs are they getting at 16 and 19. She only has a ninth grade education. And at 16 years old, you're probably talking minimum wage. Right. If not, not much more than that. It's going to be tough. You know, the deal with what they have to go through at that age. I mean, I don't know how you navigate through that. But I will say this, plenty of people have done it and continue to do. That's true. And if they don't want to do it, then like we said, said, there are a number of different avenues and options available. Exactly.

Somebody is going to want that child. I think that's the main thing. He said that once Melissa was back in Holwood, she started to change. She began letting loose and he saw a different side of her. Okay. What do you make of letting lose? Because it's kind of a strange, ambiguous term. Yeah.

You know, it just depends on. what they mean by it, but I'm thinking she's 16, she's back with around some friends. Maybe she's going out without him. Yeah, to me, letting loose is either partying with alcohol and or drugs or, you know, maybe she's cheating on him or seeing different other people. I don't know exactly what he meant by that. But what did happen was they started fighting every day. In late January or early February,

Melissa moved back in with her grandmother. Even though she was still pregnant, Melissa told her friends she had a girl and her family was taking care of her. Tony confronted her and she denied telling anyone that. So we mentioned it up front. She told a lot of different stories to different people. Yeah. I already had the baby.

It was a girl. I mean, maybe she felt she had to tell that story to justify whatever she was doing with her friends. or I think you can take it a step further and say that she already knew at that point in time maybe what she was going to do and she's planting the seeds or you know she's starting to cover her tracks and plant stories. Pre-calculated. Yeah, maybe.

So at this point, they're living separately, but they're still talking and they're discussing baby names, but anytime they tried to get back together, it just didn't work out. You ever know a couple like that? Absolutely. Like they can't stay away from each other. Yeah. They keep trying it because they want to be together so badly. They just don't know how or can't make it work.

My little brother was like that with his high school girlfriend. And I remember we always thought, you know, why don't you guys just give it up, you know? Love, man. Yeah. Especially young love. Yeah, for sure. You know, you think you can overcome whatever it is and you just keep trying and trying and trying. Eventually, you know, I think when you're older, you see that it's not going to work out a little easier or sooner or you make the decision sooner.

Why, you're like, why am I going to put myself through all this? If this is how it's always going to be. Yeah. Is it really worth all this stuff? Obviously, we're not compatible. Let's go our separate ways. Edward said he once brought a machete with him for defense. when he went to look for Melissa to trailer.

He also admitted that he slept with women. They both knew. Okay. There are a lot of ways to defend yourself. Machete seems like a strange one. It seems a little extreme to go get a machete to protect yourself. Yeah. You know, it's not really something that is easily concealed.

Right. If you're walking around a trailer park with a machete, well, people think you're a horror movie villain. Hit me one more time and I'm going to pull. this machete out of my, oh wait, it's just here in my hand. But, you know, he's admitting. You know, he wasn't the greatest guy in this relationship either, right? Yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, when you look at all of his statements, he was probably being pretty honest, more so than a lot of young guys would be. Sure. Probably about a relationship. He and Melissa had their last fight in the

middle of the road near her grandmother's house. Melissa lied about staying home that night. And he told he was leaving. Tony moved to Georgia to live with his sister and brother-in-law. He started doing masonry work and was trying to turn his life around. A state trooper then called him and told him they wanted to talk about his ex-girlfriend in connection with a homicide. He asked if Melissa was dead. And they told him an infant's body had been found. All right. That's a, uh, that's a jarring phone call. Sure. Sure would be. It does sound as though he made the decision that, this is not going to work. I got to do something different.

Got to move on. I got to move on. He moved to a different state, you know, started working, was trying to turn his life around. And then all of a sudden he gets this call. So Tony traveled to Lancaster where he took a blood test to confirm if the baby was his. The only thing that had made him happy in the past few weeks was seeing a picture of Melissa in handcuffs. He said that. I don't know how to feel about that.

I get it. He's glad to see her in handcuffs. It'd just be so hard to think about anything else at that time besides that your baby was just murdered. Well, and I think that's why he was happy to see her in handcuffs. Melissa's preliminary hearing took place on July 6, 1993. At the end of which, she was ordered to stand trial. Dr. Wayne Ross testified that when he examined the infant, the body was in an orange bucket with plastic back. a green leafy substance, towels, rags, and feminine hygiene products, according to the

intelligence or journal. The infant had no fractures or other internal trauma. The condition of the body was more consistent with a criminal act or an accident. Ross also said that the cause of death was suffocation and the manner of death was homicide. So I found those two to be a little conflicting, right? If you say the condition of the body was more consistent with the criminal act or an accident. Right. But then you're saying the cause of death was suffocation, the manner of death was homicide. Well, a baby can accidentally suffocate. It can. But if you're labeling it a homicide, then that's no accident. So why even include it? Yeah, I just thought that was a little strange. Ross was asked by the ADA. If he knew about a statement,

Melissa gave on June 26th, he said yes, and was then asked by Melissa's attorney, Greg Anthony, if he would have come to the same conclusion if he hadn't seen the statement. Ross answered that the results of criminal activity would still have been detectable. The Lancaster New Era reported that Ross did say, I do need the statement to give you reasonable certainty. And basically, this all centers around testimony, from a state trooper named John Doobie, who testified that Melissa admitted the baby was hers on June 25th, 1993. Melissa's father and grandmother were not allowed to attend the preliminary hearing. Tony Edwards was told by the police that they didn't want him at the hearing because he was a

potential witness. I mean, that's very logical. I don't see anything strange about that, right? No, no. I mean, you don't want anyone. there who is later going to be called at a trial to testify. Roland Scott McManus told the intelligence or journal, as of 1130 this morning, there was no lawyer. The way this has gone so far, I feel like she's being railroaded. So that was her father. Betty McManus said, Melissa would climb the hill to my house two or three times a day.

How could she do that if she was nine months pregnant? So again, Betty doesn't even believe she was pregnant. Well, I mean, there's going to always be people that have denial. Part of that could be friends saying to her, why didn't you do something to help? Oh, because if you knew. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

I understand what you're saying. Is there a part of her that doesn't want to admit that that is the truth? Because then it puts her on the hook a little bit for not having done something possible in her mind. The baby who was named Anthony Michael Edwards was buried in late July, 1993. On July 29th of that year, the arrest warrant affidavit was open to the public. The following information comes from an article by the Lancaster New Era. The affidavit named three people who Melissa claimed helped her give birth and dispose of the baby. Melissa told the police that she gave birth at a house in Holwood in the same.

second half of April, assisted by a teenage girl. She didn't give an exact date of birth. According to the affidavit, McManus said that after the birth of the baby, she was scared because she said she knew she couldn't keep the baby. She talked to her friends about getting rid of the baby and they told her they would, quote, take care of it. One of her friends let her hold the baby for about two minutes before they put the baby into a plastic bag. Melissa asked what they would do. and they said they were going to take the baby to the river. Her friend asked if she was going to go with them,

but she declined to do so because of her condition. The affidavit stated, McManus said that they left the house shortly after that, and she knew the baby was not coming back. So she had the opportunity to stop it? Yes, I would say so. Yeah. Now, she didn't go because of, you know,

the condition she was in, which is quite believable. sure after giving birth you're not going to pop up and go for a ride and most people just don't do that but to your point it's very evident that she knew what was going to happen to that baby and she went with it sure she chose not to interfere yes the friend returned and told her how the three of them went to the river bank and dropped the baby in just hearing you say that i think and i'm sorry but But don't you have to be a real piece of shit? I don't have a better term right now.

No, I can't think of a better one either. For you to be one of those individuals that knew a baby was in that bag and you were okay, taking it to the river and just tossing it in like trash. Yeah, I think POS is the perfect term. I mean, how do you sleep at night, knowing that you were okay with that? But not just okay with it. You did it. Somebody did it.

Yeah. So there were three people there. They're all in on it. But one person literally held their hand out and dropped this bag into the water. Yeah. And said, okay, let's go back to the car. Yes. Just have a cigarette or whatever they did, right?

Didn't even, you know, mourn the loss of the child. Now, I don't know this for a fact, but, you know, you can formulate in your head that it may have not been to them any different than, you know, finishing up a diet, Coke and throwing the can in the river. Well, you shouldn't do that either, but that's a far cry from throwing a baby. If that's the case, they clearly have some major issues. Oh, I don't think, I don't think there's any doubt about that. Trooper John C. Doobie told the press that only Melissa was charged at that time, and they were still verifying the information she gave them, which I understand. She's implicating other people. You know, just a side note, we have a trooper.

His name's Duby, Officer Duby, you know. From the, what's the movie where they make fun of the screen movie? Is that the one you're, that's Officer Duffy? Yeah, no, I'm thinking of, uh, uh, super troopers. Super troopers. Oh, I love super troopers. Officer being, having the name Dubey, you know. Okay.

Referencing, you know. I got you. Yeah. I got you. Sorry. Off track. Melissa was scheduled to go to trial on March 16th, 1994. Before the start of her trial, Judge Lewis Farina was asked to determine if she should be treated as an adult or a juvenile.

Boy, that'd be a tough call, wouldn't it? Yeah. And back in 1993, Pennsylvania law stated that teenagers accused of criminal homicide were treated as adults unless a judge decided they could be rehabilitated by the age of 21. So back to your point, man, that's a tough decision for a judge. Yeah. Number one, you're dealing with a 16 year old girl. Now, what she did was horrific. But interpreting the law or going by the law, can she be rehabilitated by the age of 21? Yeah, because the time they arrested her, she was 17, right?

So they got four years to work with her. Yeah. Yeah. But how does a judge make that determination? I don't know if a judge can, but it has to. Based on what? Yeah. The person's demeanor in court, what they said in interrogations.

I don't know. Very, very tough. A psychologist testified that Melissa was now claiming she was never pregnant. Other witnesses, including family and probation officials, testified that Melissa told them she was pregnant. So I don't think that helps your kid. case when you're waffling back and forth. No, if you have a problem omitting what you've done at this point, I think it looks really bad. And I think the judge would say, look, you're not going to be rehabilitated in four years.

I would think it would help the judge make his or her decision. Yeah. These type of statements. ADA Heidi Ekin noted that when Melissa was sentenced in juvenile court for assaulting another girl in February 1993, she said she was pregnant. Melissa told several people she was pregnant and people came forward and said she was visibly heavier in the spring of 93. But at some point that spring, she was no longer pregnant and told her family and probation officers that the baby was with an aunt or a friend. Melissa told her aunt she had a miscarriage. So again, back to

you know, she's telling all kinds of different stories to different people. And if she really wasn't pregnant, why tell those stories? But she actually, you know, did a lot to make people think either she wasn't pregnant or had already had the baby. Family members testified that Melissa showed them a picture of a baby and they were either told or they assumed it was hers. Written on the back of the picture was Brittany McManus born February 24th, 1993, 7 pounds, 10 ounces. So she really kind of worked this alibi up. She's selling it.

Yeah. I mean, she went as far as getting a picture of a baby and then writing on the back of it. Melissa's aunt Tracy Preeze testified that she never saw or cared for a baby, despite Melissa telling people that she did. So, you know, your stories start to fall apart when the people who are in the stories, you know, start coming out and saying, I don't know what in the heck you're talking about. Right. I don't know anything about this. No.

You're telling people that that I've been caring for this baby. I'm not caring for any baby. But here's a sad thing. These stories that she told, I'm sure these people would have stepped up and did this anyway. Yeah. If she just would have. Oh, my gosh. That's such an excellent point.

You know, your mother, your aunt, or aunt, I've said it in multiple ways in this episode. Yeah. Friends. Strangers. Your neighbor. If you just went to them and said, hey, I need help. Who wouldn't step in and try to help you with a baby? Yeah.

I mean, you went through all this effort to make up stuff. Just tell the truth. Yeah. And ask for help. And you, you. wouldn't have any of this bad stuff that happened to the baby and yourself. I don't know. And maybe her family wasn't the type of people that would have stepped up, but most,

most families are. Yeah, I assume there was somebody, an aunt or somebody in her family that would have stepped up. Yeah. And I'm going back to the fact that she didn't have a good childhood and all that. So maybe there was, there was something to it there. But Tracy also talked about Melissa's home life. She discussed an incident.

where Melissa's father Roland told her to leave the house and never come back. She was in middle school at that time. And I did say her mother would step up, but obviously that's not true because she abandoned her. Yeah, but it sounds like her aunt Tracy might have stepped up. Yeah, she might have.

But who tells their daughter who's in middle school, uh, you know, just get out and never come back. Middle school. Middle school. Yeah. That's rough.

You know, I mean, I mean, even a, a high schooler, even an 18th. teen year old. I would never tell my daughter, hey, get out of my house and never come back. But you know what? There's there's a lot of parents that do that. You know, I, I know a few people

that got kicked out of their house when, you know, they were in eighth grade. Yeah. You end up living with, you know, a friend and their family. I guess it depends on what the kids are doing and all that stuff. What they're, what the parents issue is, right? Sometimes the parents are just bad parents or too strict. I'll tell you right now, there's, a lot of bad parents. Yeah. You know, just like we talk about with, there's bad police officers, there's bad doctors, there's bad teachers, there are bad parents. And there are bad kids. And there are some kids that, that are out of control. But I think the point is, and you did a good job in making it,

in almost every one of these situations, there are alternative avenue to take. And you. And take. And a lot of times people just, for whatever reason, don't choose those alternative avenues. They choose the worst possible thing they can do. Ekin called Melissa street smart, while her attorney, Greg Anthony described her as immature, noting how Melissa left school in the ninth grade, moved in with her boyfriend and got pregnant at a young age. Okay. I don't know that you have to be immature to do those things. No. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I know that they go hand in hand, psychologists for the prosecution and defense agreed that Melissa suffered from a conduct disorder. A defense psychologist said that she would likely require more than

three years of treatment. According to the Lancaster new era, psychologist Lynn Anderson noted that a key factor in whether or not Melissa would respond to treatment was her motivation to fix her problems. However, Anderson said, I didn't see her as highly motivated. Well, she's not willing to admit the fact that she was pregnant and did what she did. There's a lack of motivation there. Yeah. And there are a lot of people who have issues that they could get help with. But at some point, don't you have to want to help and put in a little work? Right. If you're not motivated, if you don't want to do this, then whatever treatment you're getting is probably not going to work that great. Right.

Melissa's father and grandmother testified that Melissa was not pregnant. They were sticking with that. The Lancaster New Year reported that Betty testified that Melissa gained a little weight, but it was because she was eating a lot of junk food. You know, not all women show their pregnancy the same way. No, I remember when I was I was pretty young. I think I was, I don't know, 18 or 19. I was working at Sam's Club.

And I worked with this woman. She was in her late 20s or something. And one day she told me she was six months pregnant. And I literally had no idea she was pregnant at all. Yeah. She was still wearing like the same jeans that she had been wearing for a long time. So not sure how that is. But I do agree with you.

The showing part does happen a little differently for different people. Sure. But is this also? a case of grandma not really realizing what's going on. Yeah, it could be, you know, in some form of denial. Could be denial as well. Okay, she's eating a lot of junk food. I just chalked it up to that. Roland Scott McManus looked at photos of Melissa in the winter of 92, 93 and said she looked a little overweight, but not pregnant. He claimed he never noticed her stomach growing, ADA Ekin asked him, isn't it a fact that you knew your daughter was pregnant and she

delivered it upstairs in her room with the assistance of your mother and you? To which he responded, don't put words in my mouth. Okay. So now we might be getting into a little different territory. Sure. And different reasoning for why dad and grandma don't want to admit that they knew she was. was pregnant. Because if what the ADA is saying, they're trying to cover something up. Yeah, they're involved. He also denied disposing of the baby. He said that he had no control over Melissa running away to live with her friends, but he would never have allowed her to get pregnant. I don't know how you not allow someone to get pregnant. Yeah, it's pretty hard to stop. Yeah. Unless you're with them 24-7.

Ekin also suggested to Betty that she was the one who delivered the baby. Betty denied this and said, I know I was accused by the troopers. If they questioned her, meaning Melissa, the way they questioned me, I would have admitted it too. So this assistant district attorney is not really pulling any punches. They're not holding back. No. Going after the father, the grandmother, Betty testified.

that Melissa didn't always see eye to eye with her father and that she ran away from home five to six times. She also said that her father had beaten her a few times. Now, what's a few? I actually had somebody leave a voicemail regarding an older episode where we were talking about what is several. What is a few? What does that mean to, it means something different to different people. Sure. I think if when you say a few times, it's greater than three. I think so too. Yeah. I think so too. But also have to think, you know, if what she's saying's true, then the dad is another POS, right? Mm-hmm. Beating his child. That we know these beatings had to occur when she was 16 or younger. Yeah, I'm taking that word beaten to be much more than any type of discipline.

that any of us would be comfortable with. When you say you beat someone. Abuse. Yeah. To me, that is definitely abuse. Now, she doesn't elaborate on it and say exactly what it is, but that's the way I'm taking it. Two investigators testified that when they talked to Melissa, she gave five different stories about what happened.

At first, she said she did have a baby, but the baby found in the river was not hers. In another interview, she said the baby was her. hers and she or friends disposed of the body. The following information comes from both the Intelligence or Journal and Lancaster New Era. At the hearing, Trooper Joseph Joy talked about different statements Melissa gave. State Troopers Joy and Duby found Melissa at an apartment in Reading on May 12th. She showed them a photo of a baby girl. She claimed was born at 1.30 a.m. on February 24th at the Lancaster General Hospital.

hospital. She said her aunt and uncle, Tracy, and Mark Preeze were taking care of the baby until she got a job. So this is where it comes in where her, you know, her aunt Tracy says, hey, I don't know what you're talking about because I wasn't taking care of no baby. Right. There was no baby here. The troopers returned a couple hours later to confront Melissa with a lack of hospital records and the fact that her aunt and uncle denied taking care of the baby. Tracy said she thought Melissa had a miscarriage. Melissa said they had the baby, but they weren't telling anyone because they feared Tony Edwards would show up. Melissa agreed to allow the police to access her medical records and said that the birth certificate was at her grandmother's home. And Gibbs, I know we've talked about this

before, but you know, you've got a 16 year old girl, probably pretty scared. Sure. Being interviewed by investigators. What is she doing? She's doing what a lot of people do, telling a bunch of different stories, many of which conflict with each other. And it's almost as if this is the feeling that I get. You know,

people think that if they just keep talking, if they just keep crafting a narrative, they're going to get to a story that the police will believe. Yeah, it's like sitting in my living room when I was younger listening to my kids, try to convince me why they didn't do something that I already knew they have done.

Right. And, okay, somebody else did it. Yeah. Well, I wasn't even here at the time. I mean, you can just go down the list of all these excuses. And you know that obviously they can't all be true. And so, you know, I think as an investigator, it's not too hard to see through, you know,

what she's trying to do. Sure. after she was confronted by the police, Melissa said that once in the summer of 1992, her boyfriend beat her, she didn't know she was pregnant at the time. She locked herself into the bathroom and gave birth to a girl who was small but fully formed. She said she flushed the baby down the toilet. And according to Joseph Joy, she said she felt really sad about this. So now this is a completely different story. Yeah. So Joy testified that he asked Melissa about the reports that she was pregnant after this alleged miscarriage. Melissa denied having a second pregnancy, but then she talked about having a baby at a friend's house.

Neither she nor her friend knew what to do. She claimed the baby was a girl, but she never moved and was apparently dead. And she went on to say that her friend and that friend's boyfriend took the baby to a hospital. hospital where the baby was pronounced dead, but she didn't know which hospital or what happened to the baby. So again, multiple stories that just seemed to conflict with each other. Not all of this stuff can be true. No, it's all over the place. And part of me's thinking, did she have another pregnancy that she never told anybody about? But she said she didn't. That was the thing. She told the trooper she didn't have a second pregnancy. And, I'm sorry, but if someone has a baby and you're the friend that takes it to the hospital,

I don't think you're going to drive too far away from where you're at. You know, I mean, you can look at any city and figure out how many hospitals and what hospitals nearby that location. And check them out. Yeah, in most cities, there's only one hospital anyway. Some cities have more, but. Yeah, depending on how big the city is. Sure.

But I think for me, at the root of it, is you have a 16 year old who has no idea what to do and is just throwing stuff out. Making herself look worse and worse. Yeah, but I think in her mind, she's thinking she's going to hit upon something. Yeah. That the police are going to say, oh, well, that makes sense. Yeah. That everything's wrapped up.

And obviously, it's never going to work that way. The next interview took place on June 25th at the Redding Barracks with Detective Raymond Sol, Melissa failed a lie detector test and minutes later admitted that the baby found in the river was hers. It took all that to get to that spot. She told Detective Salt that on April 30th, 1993, she walked to a friend's house in Marduk Township at 8 p.m. and had the baby an hour and a half later. She held him for a few minutes. Her friends told her to dump the baby because her family didn't know she was pregnant. The baby was wrapped in a jacket and then put in a bag. She and two friends walked to the river and left him there. They talked about someone finding the

baby who was alive when he was put in the back. Now later on, we've already mentioned it, right? Melissa said she didn't go to the river, but instead her three friends did. She also said Tony Edwards was there when she gave birth and then later on said he wasn't. So in this case, we know she's a habitual liar. I mean, it does sound like that for sure. And it sounds like she was that way before her arrest and interrogation. Remember, go back, she was telling people all kinds of different stories, almost as if in preparation for her giving birth.

Melissa explained that she didn't keep the baby because she couldn't raise him alone. She didn't have a job. and she couldn't take him home because her family never believed she was pregnant. She told the detective, I want you to understand that if I could have, I would have kept my baby. Couldn't take him home because her family never believed she was pregnant. Well, guess what? When you bring him home, they're going to understand that you had to be pregnant. That here's the proof that I was pregnant.

So, yeah, that statement didn't make any sense to me at all. I get it. You don't have a job. You're on your own. But I go back to what we talked about earlier. There are so many different avenues. Sure. To take that don't involve killing this baby.

Most hospitals have social service workers that will come in right away. If you need help and figure out a plan, somewhere to place the baby. Like you said, the fire department. Or just go, yeah. Gold movie trope, which is, you know, people drop their child off at the fire department. I just don't know. People are going to have such a trouble just like we are with the decision making process and how she came to this point to think, well, this is my only option.

Yeah. You're just never going to make sense of it because it doesn't make sense. I mean, I get it. She was 16, but she was old enough to know. Number one, that it was wrong. And number two, that there were other things. Yeah, there's options that she could have done. According to the intelligence or journal, Melissa's attorney Greg Anthony argued she is not criminally responsible for the death of the child found in the Susquehanna.

The Commonwealth's evidence is insufficient to prove that she is. That's kind of like saying I hired this hit man to kill somebody. I mean, I wasn't there. I didn't pull the trigger, but I told him to go ahead and do it. I mean, if she's telling her friends to go ahead and take the baby and get rid of it, what's the difference? Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think what this defense attorney is trying to do is say that the state, the Commonwealth,

hasn't proven that she did that. The prosecution argued that Melissa's actions before and after her son's birth showed her chosen pattern of antisocial behavior. and she would be resistant to rehabilitation in the juvenile system. She also noted that Melissa changed her story to try to ship the blame away from her. Ekin said that Melissa could not be rehabilitated within the relevant time period. And that combined with her heartless conduct and cover up showed that she should be tried as an adult. And I understand what they're saying because she really is.

She's not taking any accountability for what happened. She seems to be in complete denial. Is she in denial or does she know what she did and she's just trying to wiggle out of it? That I don't know. I kind of lean towards the ladder, to be honest with you. She could be trying to wiggle out of it. But why she's trying to wiggle, the authorities are watching that wiggle thinking, how can we feel comfortable with you going through the juvenile system thinking that you will be okay when you're done?

Because you're having a problem omitting anything at this point. Well, and the judge agreed on April 25th, 1994, Judge Lewis Farina ruled that Melissa would be tried as an adult. Melissa requested a non-jury trial because her attorneys didn't believe she would receive a fair trial with a jury. And this to me kind of goes back to something you said very early on. And it centers around how angry people get with this notion of someone. killing a child. In this instance, a baby,

okay, maybe you don't want a jury. What jury is going to be sympathetic to her? I don't think anyone would. No, but maybe you're better off just taking your chances with the judge who is more likely to rule on the, the specific merits of the case.

Right. And, you know, can the state prove what they're contending? And check their emotions. Yes. Versus a jury who is going to look at her and say, well, she must have done it because she lied to all these people.

And look at her. She doesn't even look like she's sorry about it. Yeah. That could be as well. Melissa's trial started on May 3rd, 1994. The prosecution argued that the murder was premeditated. While the defense argued that Melissa was too young to be in her right mind when she killed her son.

Okay. That's an argument. I don't know that we've heard. Now, we've heard people say, my client wasn't in his or her right mind. But it normally is referencing some type of mental illness. Sure. But to say that she was simply too young to know what she was doing,

I don't think 16's too young. To know that killing a baby is wrong. No, I don't think so either. Just that alone. Yeah. If that's what he's trying to say. I think that's a tough argument to make. Melissa's defense also argued that she was not guilty because there was insufficient evidence

that she was pregnant and that the baby was hers. Defense attorney Greg Anthony questioned if the child was born alive. He also said Melissa's confession was not reliable because it contained false statements. For example, Melissa named three people whom she claimed helped her get rid of the baby, but the police believed they were not. not culpable. Okay. Now, these arguments he's making, I understand. The two young, that one doesn't strike a chord with me, but these do. Sure. Right. The prosecution doesn't have enough evidence. Can they even prove that the baby was born alive? Because that's, that's a big difference.

It is a big difference. As far as what would happen to her. And how reliable is her confession? because she's a known liar. She told eight, 10 different versions. Right. So which one's correct? So I understand, you know,

going that route. Over a dozen witnesses testified that Melissa talked about being pregnant, discussed baby names, and even let people touch her stomach. I know some women are okay with that, some are not. Yeah. Yeah,

it's going to vary. I do know the one thing you shouldn't do is assume that someone is okay with that. Yeah, I think you have to ask first, you know, especially since COVID. And it's such a weird, and it's such a weird question. Can, do you mind if I touch your stomach? Yeah, I don't know why they would want to do that. I don't want anybody touching my stomach.

Yeah, you get asked all the time. I do. I do. I think people think it's good luck or something. Anthony Edwards testified that he learned about to pregnancy in the summer of 1992. He put his ear against Melissa's stomach. and felt the baby kick. He also said their relationship soured when he got involved with Melissa's twin sister, Wendy.

That will definitely sour your relationship. Yeah, sour is probably not a strong enough word, but. I mean, did he say, oh, I thought it was you because it was her twin? Try to try to play it off like that. Melissa told him she gave birth on February 20th, but refused to let him see the baby. he called domestic relations, hospitals in Lancaster, and Melissa's doctor to try to locate his child. Melissa then said her aunt and uncle were taking care of the baby and she visited twice a week. Man, she's really throwing this aunt and uncle out.

She really is. Under the bus. Now, it's not too hard for them to come back under oath and say, no, we never took care of this baby. We would have been happy to. But no, she never gave us that option. Wendy Lee testified that she took a photo of her sister in the shower where she looked pregnant. Months later, she saw Melissa in their bedroom and she was no longer pregnant. She even said, look, I can suck my gut in, according to Wendy.

Melissa showed her a photo of a baby named Brittany and said she was with their Aunt Tracy. After the baby was found in the river, Wendy received letters from Melissa. according to the intelligence or journal, Wendy testified in one of them she said it was hers, but she didn't do it. The other two said she was never pregnant. So I don't know what the hell to believe. That's probably the most honest statement. Yeah. Um, anyone has made in, in this entire case, because with all of the different stories that Melissa told, it would be hard to know what to believe. Now, after the fact, I think it's pretty easy. easy to understand what happened.

And this is her twin. You know, they always say twins know each other so well. You know, for her twin twin to say, I don't know what the hell is going on here. It says a lot. This is also your twin that slept with your boyfriend.

You got to factor that in as well. Yeah. I don't know how many twins would sleep with their other twins, boyfriend or girlfriend on purpose. You have to put that part in. Other witnesses said Melissa seemed happy about her pregnancy, but after she broke up with Edwards, she showed no interest in getting things for the baby and didn't even want to talk about her pregnancy. By April 1993, Melissa was in another

relationship with 20-year-old Paul Craig Leonard Jr. Leonard testified that he saw stretch marks on Melissa's body, and she said that she had a baby. According to the intelligence or journal on May 4th, the police testified about Melissa's recantation of her confession. According to a state trooper, Melissa said, the whole statement was made up. I'm telling you now, I never had a child in my life. So apparently she renounced her confession on June 29th when she was charged with murder. Melissa spoke with Trooper Duby, she said she was tired of line and tried to trap her boyfriend by telling him she was pregnant and wearing padding. She offered names of people who could verify she was never pregnant.

I mean, I'm telling you, the thing that keeps running through my head is, you know, the number of different ways that she went about trying to snow the police. Yeah, I mean, she's really trying to discredit this pregnancy piece, but not doing a very good job at it. Well, because if she was never pregnant, then the baby wasn't hers. and therefore she can't be guilty. Dr. Wayne Ross testified on the fourth and said that the autopsy, the way the body was found, and Melissa's statements led him to conclude the baby died of suffocation. He believed the baby was a lot when he was born and was carried to full term.

There were no signs of injury, illness, or birth defects. The way the umbilical cord was cut indicated he wasn't born in a hospital. The defense questioned him about his reliance on police reports and statement, which I understand that they would do. He is coming to a conclusion based on certain things. Right. So the defense is going to have to hammer that pretty hard. A forensic scientist testified that the blood on the waste paper basket and the feminine hygiene product found with it was type AB, which is Melissa's blood type. A molecular biologist testified that decomposition prevented conclusive DNA testing of the baby.

But Melissa and Anthony Edwards couldn't be excluded as parents. So that's interesting, right? Because you kind of assumed that this would be an easy thing. Sure. Verifying that the baby found was Melissa's. but then you find out that decomposition prevented it. Now, this was the early 90s. Right.

So would that still be the case today? I don't know, but I highly doubt it. I'm sure technology is advanced where they would be able to do it. A defense pathologist testified that it was more likely the baby was still born. According to the Lancaster new era, Dr. Neil Hoffman, the defense is only witness testified that a still birth was possible because the baby had an excessively long umbilical cord, which according to his testimony increases the risk of death at birth. Another suggestion was a lack of bleeding in the scalp, which possibly indicated no circulation

at birth. So not strange that, you know, the different experts and scientists disagree because that's what we normally see. Yeah. I mean, I think there's some unknown. factors there that you could go either way with that theory. Well, I think that's what jumps out at me. Both of these people are making a lot of speculation. Sure. I mean, I don't think either one of them is able to prove one way or the other. No. So there's no jury, which means it's going to be up to the judge, right, to weigh all the evidence and rule. Testimony concluded on May 4th, and both sides gave their closing arguments. ADA Heidi Ekin argued that there was overwhelming evidence.

Melissa was pregnant and she came to view her pregnancy with disgust after Anthony Edwards became sexually involved with her sister. Gregory Anthony said that there was little evidence besides Melissa's confession that the baby was hers and that confession was unreliable because it contained lies and false accusations against the people she claimed helped her get rid of the baby. So before we get into the ruling, you know, to me, this is a different type of trial, you know, very circumstantial. And we, and we do have a lot of trials that are circumstantial, but this is a very circumstantial trial. I mean, there is very little in the way of physical

evidence. I'm assuming most people thought early on, that DNA would connect the baby as being hers. They couldn't do it. Right. So it causes a problem. And the defense is bringing up some valid points. Yeah. How do you know or have you proven that the baby was hers?

Yeah. And the prosecution feels like it's done a good job proving in their eyes that she was pregnant. Yes. And there's no account for the baby anywhere besides the one they found in the, the river. Well, and I always think a confession is big, you know, so the defense is trying to battle that confession by saying, well, you really can't rely on it because, yes, she confessed, but she also said a bunch of other things, which we detailed out. And so obviously not all that stuff is true. So what is true? It basically is what they're saying. On May 6th, 1994, Melissa McManus was found

guilty of first degree murder and criminal conspiracy. She was sentenced to life in prison without parole plus five to ten years for conspiracy. You know, when you think about that, that's a really long sentence. That is a really long sentence for a really horrible heinous crime. Absolutely it is. And I don't think anyone would have a problem with it. Now, I guess if anybody does, it would only probably center around her age. Yes. Being 16, there might be some people who feel like, you know, life with no parole is, is too harsh. As reported by the intelligence or journal, the judge told her, I only hope as you go to prison, you will make something useful of your life as limited as it will be there. Good luck to you. Okay, pretty short and sweet. Sure. Yeah. Um,

this wasn't the judge to Bundy saying, uh, you'd have made a hell of a lawyer. I would have loved to have do you practice in front of me, but you went a different way, partner, I think is what he said. Yeah, which is a different path. Yeah, this is a little bit different. Many years later, on June 25th, 2012, the Supreme Court ruled that mandatory life sentences without parole for juveniles could constitute cruel and unusual punishment. Melissa McManus was one of several inmates who filed appeals to the state Superior Court. These appeals were filed in anticipation of the Supreme Court opinion. On January 25th, 2016, the Supreme Court ruled that the 2012 ruling should be retroactive and juvenile sentenced under mandatory laws should have an opportunity for resentencing or to

seek parole. Forty-year-old Melissa McManus was resentenced to 25 years to life on November 9th, 2017, Judge Dennis Reneker accepted a plea agreement between her attorney and the Lancaster County DA's office. According to Lancaster Online, Melissa cried, as she told the judge, not a day goes by that I don't think about my son. I don't know how to forgive myself. I try. She also said, according to Local 21 News, I don't know how to forgive myself. I really didn't mean to hurt anyone. I just didn't understand it. So we talked about her life sentence with no parole. I really didn't have that big a problem with it. I also don't have a problem at all with the Supreme Court ruling overturning that and her getting resentenced. I don't have a problem with that. What I want to do,

though, is I want to analyze some of these statements that she made. She's no longer a kid. She's 41 years old. She's making some good statements, right? Not a day goes by. I don't think about my she tells multiple outlets that she can't forgive herself, but she does say I really didn't mean to hurt anyone. And I don't know how to take that. How did you not know that you were going to be hurting someone? Yeah, you know, for her to make that statement, as an adult, I think she's looking back as herself as a child, you know, a 16 year old thinking,

you know, I didn't realize it was going to have the impact that it did because she maybe in her mind, she's trying to find an excuse for her younger self. Yeah, I think so, but I have a hard time buying it. You know, I do too. Because you and I both had kids who were at one time 16 years old. Sure. And I think about them. And I know not every child is the same.

Not every kid's the same. But I think about them at 16. And they would have known. Absolutely. What effect that action was going to have. Now, maybe she didn't or maybe. maybe like you said, she's trying to soften. Yeah.

Her 16 year old self now at 41. Maybe it's the only way she can live with herself. Live with herself. It could be. Sleep, you know, get a good night and get a, get a, get a night of sleep. Yeah, it could be. Melissa's attorney, K. Spot, said that Melissa did not spend her time doing nothing. She got a GED, participated in the prison's dog program and got certifications in things like

upholstery and plumbing. she was also going to complete beautician school and plan to get a license in that field when she was released. Spot said that Melissa was introspective and experienced daily guilt for what she did. She also revealed that Melissa didn't feel ready to reintegrate into society right away. So she planned to go to a halfway house after her release and would also participate in her mandatory counseling. I always like how we talk about. the inmates doing this and, you know, attending that. Well, you know what?

They're in prison. If they choose to do something or not do something, that's on them. But they have these resources that are being paid by taxpayers that a lot of people on the outside don't have those type of resources. So the fact that she took advantage of those, great. But I'm not going to be like, good for you, you know. Yeah. It's just like, they're there for you.

You should take advantage of them. And if you don't, okay. You should, but if you're weighing two individuals in the same circumstance, one is doing all of these things in prison and the other one is shanking people. Well, yeah, I get that. That is going to play into whether you're going to get paroled. Now, would she have done all that stuff if she had a life sentence with no parole? If it had not been overturned?

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. But sometimes I think they get too much credit for that. Yeah, I get you. I get you. Lancaster Online reported that Judge Raniker told Melissa, you're being given a second chance. Good luck, Miss McManus.

According to the Pennsylvania Department of Corrections, inmate and parolee locator, Melissa's release date was June 30th, 2018. So she was released almost five years ago. She did what? Gibbs helping me with my math, 25 years in prison. Is that right? Sounds about right. So, you know, people can argue. Is that long enough for what she did? And I think the argument can be made because she was only 16 years. Sure. Yeah. If if this is a full blown adult,

I'm probably not real happy with her being let out at 25 years. But with that being said, we've seen murderers get out earlier. Oh, way earlier. Way earlier. So, you know, the good news is she rehabilitated herself in prison. Hopefully. Yeah. She's either out there doing some one's hair or redoing your couch or who knows what she's doing.

But she's out there and she's paid her dues. She did pay her dues as what, you know, per what was required of her. Yeah. People may argue that it wasn't long enough or, people may say, yeah, they're fine with that. Yeah. You know, you can go either way. What I will say is I really didn't find much after this. So maybe it does seem as though she's kept her nose clean. You would hope somebody would when they're given that type of second chance. Yeah, probably a case like this, I wouldn't be surprised when she came out if she changed her name.

Well, that could be as well. That could be as well. So, you know, as we're wrapping up this case, there's one big topic that we haven't explored yet. And it's the accomplices who Melissa said, you know, helped her deliver the baby. We're the ones that actually, you know, disposed of the baby's body in the river.

Who are these people? Were they real? Because they've never been named. Right. They've never been charged. I even think we said police don't believe that they either exist or that they were culpable in any way. You know, there was one part in her confession, I believe, where she said she walked down

to the river. Right. And, you know, drop the baby into the water. So there's, there is still a lot of kind of uncertainty around that one part. I tend to think it's just another one of her stories. I think so too. Because if these individuals existed, I think. the authorities would have made some type of effort.

They would have figured out who they were. Yeah. So the fact that no one was ever charged makes you feel like it was fabricated. Yeah, I think so. But if they did exist. Shame on that. Shame on. And I think they would deserve the same amount of time.

They would. If not greater for the person that actually held the bag out and allowed the bag to fall into the water. Drop the bag. But there's no doubt the Melissa McManus case remains a contrast. controversial topic. Even back in 1993, local papers received letters from readers who felt like her sentence was unfair. But there were many who thought justice was served when she was sentenced to life without parole. It's kind of what we were talking about, right? People are going to be in different camps. And this debate continues today. But there's one thing that that no one can

deny. And that's that Melissa McManus committed a horrific crime against her newborn son. That part you can't argue with. No, you can't. You can argue whether the sentence was fair. She should have ever gotten out. People are entitled to their opinion on that. But, you know, what this girl did. And I, and granted, she was 16 years old. I'm not not taking that into account. But what she did. was just so horrific. I think if she was 21, the argument would not be there. It would be different. It definitely would be different for me.

Yeah. I would be much harsher on her if that's even possible because I feel pretty rough against her anyway, even though she was only 16. Well, she did her time. She's out in the real world now. Hopefully she learned her lesson and she's just being a good citizen. Yeah, hopefully she does do something with her life. And she finds a way to come to peace with what she did. I don't know how you do that, man.

I don't know how you find peace with that. But I don't know. Got to live with it. Sure. You got to live with it. But that's it for our episode on Melissa McManus. We got some voicemails. You want to check those out?

Yeah, Sarah. Hi, it's Kirsten from Spokane. Also, Spokompton is what we call around here. You actually did a podcast about the self-complice. so rapist, which is interesting, so I live on the Seltrelle. I'm going to send you an email about Bobby Sue Terrell. She was a serial killer, but she was a nurse, and she actually had, I believe, schizophrenia. So anyway, it's really interesting.

She was actually judged insane, hopefully. But I thought maybe you guys could give her a look. So, yeah. All right. Thanks for the voicemail. I'll look for the email, and we'll definitely put that on the list. Yeah, spoken. Spoken.

Is that how we're saying it now? I don't know. Because that's not how I'm saying it. Hi, this is Riley. So every time I listen to one of your guys's shows and you guys say, well, they went out to relieve themselves either on the side of the road or in some random parking lot or something, and they stumble upon a dead body. My first thought is always, I wonder if they went ahead and relieved themselves or if they

tried to zip back up and went and called police or if they just went in their pants. I don't know why, but I don't know why. It's always been the curiosity that I have every time you guys say that because I know there's sometimes or I wouldn't be able to hold it. And well, it just kind of makes you wonder. Anyways, food for thought. Love you guys. Keep your own time thinking. Hey, sometimes you got to go when you got to go. Well, you got to go, but I think you also, if you're going to interact with the police, I think you got to zip up. My question is, how the hell did you get to beans above the frank? That really hurts. Yeah. And don't hold it. I held it one

time. It did not turn out well for me. Oh, you know that's bad for you. Oh, I know. To hold your your pee. Remember when I took a face plan into the year? Yeah. Yeah. Did we tell that? That's both funny and tragic. It was very tragic. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if you've ever told that story. Let's save that one for another episode. Probably not to. Hi, I'm JJ. I just wanted to give you guys a call. I'm actually a law enforcement officer in Tennessee, and I've been listening to your podcast for a while, and I really love how neutral you guys say when it comes to telling the story and also, you know, not implying anyone's guilt, even if they are. And if they are, you guys are very clear and deliberate and how you present it. And you guys do a great job. So thank.

Wow. Very to the point. Nice. Yeah, made me feel good. She's nice until she does a until it's time to not be nice. Yeah. Officer JJ or Detective JJ or Trooper JJ, I don't know. We don't know. I just know she's in law enforcement. But we appreciate the voicemail. We had no mail back, Gibbs.

So that's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.