True Crime All The Time - Michael Lee Lockhart

Episode Date: January 15, 2018

Michael Lee Lockhart grew up as a seemingly normal well-adjusted child. He was known as a smooth talker, and that ability combined with his good looks allowed him to con people with ease. His early criminal life revolved around car theft. But he would graduate to murder.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the crimes and victims of Michael Lee Lockhart. What caused this kid to grow up to be a monster? There was not much in his background to clue anyone into the fact that this would happen. Also, how does a petty criminal known for boosting cars all of a sudden become a multi-state murderer? Maybe it is that Lockhart is responsible for many more deaths than he has admitted to.You can help support the show by going to patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for merchandise and contact information. We have many new TCATT merch items at the store!Credits:Writing/Research - Maggie Dobschuetz See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 61 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, what is going on? What is happening, man, made it through the blizzard. Not quite a blizzard, but, you know, freezing rain and snow, it was rough out. Yeah. I had to go out last night about 10 o'clock pick up my daughter and got four-wheel driving the truck, so I wasn't too worried about it. But the roads, at least in our plat, they were horrible. Yeah, they were. A lot of buildup. It's been cold. It's going to get cold this week, man. So we went from like negative temperatures to a little heat wave for two days. It was 60 degrees one day? Yeah. And then the next thing you know, it's like five or ten.

Tomorrow's supposed to be negatives again and throughout the next few days. That's what you get for living in Ohio, I guess. That's right, man. All right, Gibbs. Let's start out with our new Patreon supporters. We had Magnus Arnerson. Strong name there. Very strong. Yeah. Powerlifter strong. Tanya Coniglia. Yeah, a big social media person.

Yep. Megan Fitzgerald. We had Jessica Coopman's come out our highest level. Awesome. That's great. Angela Rhodes, Enfriender. Oh, man. It's nothing like a good Enfriender.

So I don't know. It could be Nancy. It could be. Nikki. Nicky. Could be Neil. So many options. Yep.

We don't know. Let's go through the whole alphabet of what it could be with that N. You want to name every name possibility? I'm going to go with Neto. Maybe it is just N. Maybe it is. It'll be cool. Get a big belt buckle with an N on it.

Like, yeah. N period. Like M from 007? Yeah. Yeah. I want a cool name. You're Fergie. Well, I am Fergie.

Can't get it on a belt buckle. Well, you can, but it'd be a really big belt buckle. Fergolicious. Now you're going to, now it's just creepy, dude. We had Alyssa Larison. Nancy Perrin, Becky Parton, no relation, I believe, to Dolly. Yeah, you don't even know. I don't, but wouldn't that be something?

We had Tyler Basil Wilson jump out our highest level and then tack a little extra on top of that. With a name like that, that's what you do. Yeah, you go out strong when you have a name like that. You have to. At Gretchen Schwartz. Go ahead. I know you want to say it. May the Schwartz be with you.

There you go. Got it out of the way. You know, you know me. huge Mel Brooks fan, huge, that type of what I call dumb comedy. And I'm using that word in a good term. I can still see that little guy with that big Darth Vader hood on helmet on. That little guy being Rick Moranus? Rick Moranis, yeah. Hey, you know that little guy? That little guy. Rick. Oh, your knowledge of movie astounds us all. It's amazing. We had Mary Van Ravens Way. It's a Harry Potter person has to.

be. You think? It sounds like a Raven's way. It's a very cool name. Yeah. If not, you ought to be something in Harry Potter. I know, it's already written and done, but, you know, maybe the, the prequel, well, the prequel's already done. Maybe the, whatever they come out with next.

Yeah. How about that? Jenny Sandercott. And then if we go back into the Patreon vault Gibbs, this week we selected Katie Turner. And, you know, Katie's been amazing, been a long, long time supporter. Yeah, definitely appreciate it, KT. Yep. Big, big, huge shout out to Katie.

And then on PayPal, we had some supporters there, too. We had Bethany Joe Polter, Patrick Ifland, and Shantana Ledden. You sure? I'm not. I'm doing my best with that one. Santana. And then we had Jenny Pogue. I don't want to leave her out.

No, don't leave Jenny out. Can't do it. All right. So big shout out to Maggie for the writing, the research. always appreciated. Absolutely. Love Maggie. Make sure you check out Unsolved.

Right now, there's an episode out on Uge de la Plaza. Yes. And I know we struggle with the name. You know, it's a French name. There's a lot of letters that are silent in this bad boy. I had no problem. Yeah, you had no problem whatsoever. But it isn't an unsolved murder slash mystery.

And, you know, like we do on Unsolved, we're going to get into it. You're going to get into everything. We're going to dive in. Dive in. All right. So before we start talking about Michael Lee Lockhart, you know, that's the subject for this episode, I got to talk about some new merchandise gibbs that we have out on the T-Cat store. And you can get to the store by either going to True Crime All the Time.com.

There's a merchandise tab with a link, take you straight there. Or you can get there through our Facebook page because there's a store link to on there. But we've got all kinds of different new t-shirts, long-sleeved t-shirts, zip-up fleece, like a fleece jacket. Yeah. We've got bandanas for pets. That's cool. With true crime all time on it. Yeah. Got a lot of pet lovers. Yeah, we've got all kinds of stuff. You know, workout pants, sweatpants with the logo on it. So make sure you check that out. I know it's been a long time coming. We're really trying to figure out the best way to offer up some additional true crime all time merchandise. And we think this is the best way to do it. Yeah, check it out.

Let us know. All right, Gibby, let's get into Michael Lee Lockhart. Like last week, another what we'd call lesser known killer. And we did say that we wanted to do some of those this year, for sure. We're going to do some big timers. We don't know who those are going to be yet. But a lot of people really like these cases where they don't know all the details, right? They're not super familiar. And if some of the other podcasts haven't covered it, you know, it's like they're hearing it for the first time. Because they are. Well, they're hearing ours for the first time regardless. Exactly. And you don't get the Gibby influence, the knowledge drops. It's right. Or the absolutely. The absolutely. The right. You don't get that anywhere else. And what you also don't get

anywhere but true crime all the time is me saying that it's interesting. You will not hear that anywhere else. No, and that's important for you to say interesting. Now, I have been trying to say the T because I know it bugs the shit out of people. It does. They're like, go back to the way when you were saying it wrong. So, oh, you're saying it bugs it now that I'm trying to say the T? Yeah. Once they call you out, they hate that you try to go back and correct it. So, but it's going to happen however I think of it in the moment. There's a lot of drinking games with how we say things. Right. So if we change it up, it messes up the drinking games. It's right. It's like, no, wait, we can't get them person. That person tipsy anymore. Well, I'll tell you what's funny. In my mind,

the tea is always there. No matter how I say it. Yeah. I can picture it. I feel like I'm saying it. It just doesn't come out. I'm just saying you can get some people drunk or for the non-drinkers that are doing it on their fitness program, they have to do an extra set of something. something. So now when you say it, they have to rep out one additional squad or something. Yeah, you know, that's what's awesome. It's not only drinking games. We've got some fitness games. People are playing and as they listen to us while they work out. But in talking about Michael Lee Lockhart, born September 30th, 1960, actually we're in Ohio, Gibbs to start out. Not too shocking. Not too shocking. Ohio, probably the weather. That this bad man would be born in Wall Bridge, Ohio,

to Noble and Betty Jean Lockhart. Noble. Noble. That's a name you don't hear very often. Well, you know, it's very noble. It is noble. But have you ever heard of anybody named Noble? Says that one king I met.

But Michael Lockhart was the ninth of ten children in this Lockhart family. Ten children. A lot of kiddos. Well, it really is. And we have a lot of listeners who have tremendously big family. Sure. And they do an amazing job. But every time I hear about this, I think, all right, I have two girls.

Right. And they cost a fortune. I cannot imagine having 10. Well, you just can't buy all the stuff that you would buy today. No, you wouldn't be able to. But even, like, just to bear bones it, buying your food bill. I think one of our listeners, they live out in California, they have like four kids, five kids. I don't know.

But she had to go to Costco or Sam's, and that's where she got in her, just her weekly grocery bill was like close to $700. Yeah. Something like that. Five, six, whatever. That's a very nice house payment. That's exactly. So whenever I think about that, now back in the day, and I always say back in the day, but, you know, depending on where you were, you know, did you have a farm where you're growing your own food? That would change things, right?

And you don't have, and this is what I think about a lot, you didn't have the cable direct TV bill. Well, you know, cell, you didn't have the, yeah. Right, you didn't have 10 kids that had iPhones. Yeah. But now, you know, those folks that have big families today do have all that they're out of pay for. Yeah. It's expensive, man. I know just for the four of us, our phone, cell phone bill is outrageous.

I'd have me some chickens in my backyard. Just eat eggs and. Just eggs every day, man. Here you go, kid. Here's your egg for the day. You get one egg. It's right. Here's your egg.

It's your birthday. You get two. And here's one to take for lunch. Yeah. When your birthday, you get a bonus egg. But his family, Michael's family would later come out and give descriptions of him as a child. And his sisters in particular would say that he was a sweet kid. Never did anything wrong.

He was like the, almost like the goody two shoes of the family. Now, this is as a young kid. We know that's not going to last, or we wouldn't be talking about him on true crime all time. And the one thing that his brother Donald would say is that they all did, but Michael in particular, witnessed a lot of fighting, a lot of physical abuse that occurred between the parents, Noble and Betty Jean, while he was growing up. So an unhappy marriage. and filter to the kids.

Yeah, definitely sounds like it was a combative, combustible type relationship. Always, if you're going to argue with your spouse, don't do it in front of your kids. If you can help it, I agree with you. But, and I will say this, Gibbs, kids I found, at least my kids, they hear a lot more than we ever thought they heard. Oh, sure they do. In terms of arguments that, and when I say arguments, I don't mean knock down dragouts in any way. No.

But arguments that we would have behind closed doors. Yeah. Later on, find out that, oh, yeah, kids heard every word of that. Even though we thought we were protecting them from hearing us argue. Now, Michael was described as a very nervous child. And he was a complainer. You know, he was always complaining day and. and day out about one thing or another.

A whiner. And maybe an attention seeker. Because you go back to the fact that they have 10 kids. And I don't care if you're super parents. There's no way that there is enough time in the day to give all of those 10 kids the same amount of attention that you could give one or two. You just have to have a day planner. You just couldn't do it.

Where's my appointment with you? And so what I got from the research into Michael Lee Lockhart was that, you know, he was doing things to get attention, not only from his parents, but from his siblings as well. And again, he's one of the youngest, the second youngest. And they would come out later, especially his brother Donald would talk about him a lot saying that he felt like his brother was a hypochondriac, was doing a lot of stuff to get attention. And he basically said, that people in the family just didn't have a lot of interest in him. They didn't show a lot of interest in him. In a lot of respects, Gibbs, it was like, I think he was on his own. But we talked about the fact that he was a good kid, even as he was getting older, people would later say that, you know, they looked at Michael Lockhart as kind of the all-American kid. And this is not, this is not normal, right, for TCAT upbringings. You know,

we're usually talking about torturing animals, bullying, doing, you know, bad things from a pretty early age. This guy was a little different. Everything you read about him is that people thought he was a good kid. You know, he was tall. Eventually he's going to be about six foot tall. Good looking guy was said to have been the most handsome of the five brothers, right? So five brothers, five sisters. That could be impressive or depending on, you know, I don't know what the brother. Well, if the other four were toothless and he had three teeth, then he's the best looking just by default. Exactly. But I don't think that's the case.

So described as pretty good looking, but the other thing that you really have to understand about Lockhart is that he was a smooth talker. And this is something that we kind of see a lot. People that are able to manipulate, get other people to do what they want them to. Exactly. And he is going to draw some comparisons, and we may talk about it later, to another smooth talker by the name of Ted Bundy. Smooth, smooth talker. Yeah, good looking guy, smooth talker. I think that's where some of the comparisons come in.

Get people to come out of their shell. Tell you more than they want. They normally should tell people. You hit the nail right on the head. He was able to get people to not only come out of their shell, but kind of almost like fall under his spell. Spellbound. The only thing that you can really point to in his youth was he did play football. Yeah.

And he was hit in the head, most likely suffered a concussion. Okay. That people now look back on and wonder if that led to some kind of serious head trauma at a certain point in his life. I was hitting my head. And you turned out phenomenal. Pretty good. Pretty good. Don't have that stroke light going on.

It mixes me up. But he did drop out of high school just a few months before he was ready to graduate. And I, that's how I don't get that. It's like getting to the finish line right there and then you pull up. Yeah. And you say, okay, you guys all go past me. I don't want to run through the tape. Yeah.

You always have to go back to track, right? I do. Your track days were. Phenomenal. You've used that word. Is that on that calendar? Is that today's word on the calendar I gave you? Phenomenal.

Phenomeno. I know, you're not that impressed. I am, I'm impressed that you were a track star. I think star is kind of a loose term. Let's just go, I'm impressed that you ran track. Yeah, I actually am because you don't, I, wrestling, I get. Yeah, I did that too. No, and I get that part.

It's the track thing that's kind of throwing me off. Oh, man. But, you know, people would look at me probably today and say, I can't believe that guy played basketball and baseball at a high level. level. I don't look like a major athlete today. I'm trying to get back to it, right, with my fitness regimen. That's right. I got really, I got really strong the thighs, man. All right. Well, you know, you don't have to disclose everything. But this dropping out of high school for Lockhart, you know, it was a surprise to his family, but also to school officials.

And you think about that, Gibbs. Most of the time when a kid drops out of high school, it's probably not that surprising to the people at the school. You know, they might be a bad student. They act up in class. And the next thing you know, they drop out. Not a shocker. Not a shocker. But this was because he wasn't that guy.

Now, his high school principal would come out and say that he was a natural born salesman. That's that smooth talker part. Yeah. And friends would say that he could BS his way out of everything or anything. So, you know, really emphasizing this manipulative. smooth talker, suave car salesman persona because it's going to be important.

It's going to be a smooth criminal, is he? Did you just reference a Michael Jackson thought. Maybe he knows what happened to Annie. Man, you're going old school. Uh, uh, get my member's jacket only coat out. How about your members only jacket? What did I say? Members jacket only.

Oh. Or is that the brand that you had? I had to probably get the off brand. Is that the Kmart members jacket only? Yeah. Big Lox or whatever. They had to switch up the name just to keep it legal enough. Legal enough, yeah.

It never really fit, you know, that great, you know. Well, one sleeve was like three inches longer than the other. You know, they had the, whatever those things on the shoulder were called on those member only jackets. They never had like little, like, didn't they like little buckles or something on their shoulders? I don't know. I was not a big members only guy. I think you were. No.

You probably wore the jean jacket. Was not a big jean jacket guy either. Really? I'm trying to think back of what I was big on. Well, we know you rolled your jeans. I did roll my jeans and I wore mini tonkas. That's all you have to say. That was kind of my signature look.

That was good right there. It's all they need to know. Yep. So at the age of 20, Michael Lockhart meets a woman named Janet. They're at a disco. And again, this is 1980, right? So kind of winding down. Was that winding down of disco?

Yeah, coming down from Donna Summer. Yeah, 1980 would have been. in the wind down phase, I would think of this. I think like Saturday night fever came out like late 70s. Late 70s. But they meet at a disco and she gets pregnant just a few months into their relationship. But he does marry her in 1982 at about the same time that he enlists in the army and starts training as a combat engineer. And after their daughter is born, they would move to Elizabethtown, Kentucky.

Well, I know exactly where that's at. Because he's stationed at Fort Knox. Okay. You know, we're in Kentucky, a place that you and I know very well. That's over there by Rough River and Elizabeth Town. That was a movie, too, with the dude that shoots the arrows in Lord of the Rings. Bloom? Yeah, whatever his name is.

Yeah, all right. Yeah, that's what I got for you. Orlando Bloom. Orlando Bloom. Yeah. Yeah, you tee it up. I'll finish it off for you. It's kind of how we do it.

That's right. I've never seen Elizabeth Town, so. I can't remember it was okay movie. But speaking of Kentucky, Gibbs, I've been watching this show justified. Now, it's an old show. It's been off for a couple years. Yeah. I've been watching it on Amazon and I can't get enough of it.

It's good stuff. It's like it's bingeworthy to me. That's the way to be a cop, man. Be like him. He does shoot quite a few people. Just get it over. As a marshal. But what I like about it is they're in and around Lexington and all the small towns of Kentucky

and the haulers and all that. It's like we're hanging out with our family. Yep, back in the day. And Lockhart actually gets stationed in South Korea for a period of time, but he's discharged from the Army after just a few years of service. And what was said about his time in the Army was that Michael Lee Lockhart was a man who wasn't really great at finishing tasks. We know he's a smooth talker.

We know he can BS. But when it came to actually getting. the work done, that was not his forte, apparently. Well, he didn't finish graduation. That's true. So didn't finish his jobs that he was hired to do. He's not a finisher. He's not a finisher.

He's a talker. He's a starter. He's, you know, and a lot of guys are like that. They like to talk their way out of things as opposed to rolling up their sleeves and actually doing those things. Yeah, digging into it. I always finish strong. That's what I've heard about you, but really just from you.

So I don't know. I take it at, I take you at your word. That's all you can do. So as he gets out of the army, he is not good at finding steady work. So it would be his wife that is going to be the one to provide rent money, money to take care of their daughter. And eventually they returned to Toledo, Ohio, where his family was. But at this point, you have a lot of people coming out and saying that they thought

Michael Lee Lockhart was under a tremendous amount of pressure. And I do think that situation, Gibbs would be pressure packed. You know, you need to provide. You have a wife. You have a young daughter. You're not providing. You're not working. Your wife is doing basically probably everything. Most do. You know, bringing in all the money, probably taking care of the daughter most of the time. Right. Now, I'm speculating, but that happens in a lot of houses. You want to contribute. Yeah. You really, now, whether he did or not, that's the part I don't know. Right. Well, you want to contribute at home and at going out and bringing money in.

Most people do. Well, and they should. But there's people that don't. I get it. Friends would say that he did love his daughter. But this pressure that we mentioned, I think it did. It centered around him not being able to take care of his family. He was very unhappy. And that led to him becoming abusive, rude towards his wife. He started leaving the house without even telling them where he was going. Well, you know, he felt that he should be contributing. He couldn't get a job or didn't try to get a job. So she's bringing in the money, taking, doing everything. So instead of being appreciative and saying, thank you, honey, for keeping us afloat and doing all this

stuff because I'm sitting here on my ass on the couch watching Jerry Springer. Yeah. He goes the other way. He goes the other way. It makes her feel guilty for working, bringing home and trying to degrade her down. To make himself feel better. Yeah. That we're speculating, but we're probably not that far off. I think I'm fine. If I had to.

Yeah, I think we're right. But this would also be around the same time when Lockhart would start to break the law. So he stole a car in 1984. He drives the car to Wyoming and he robs a gas station. And he gets the whopping sum of $108. That's a lot of money, not. And for those of you that don't know, because I was in that industry for a period of time where I managed a bunch of different gas stations, a gas station is not a good place to rob.

No. There's not a lot of money in the till. A whole lot of security. Yeah. I just, I don't get that. Now, it might be viewed as one of the quickest, right? Get in, get out. Yeah.

There's no armed guard or anything, but you're not going to get a lot of money. Just, I mean, it's low resistance, right? People aren't going to fight you. They got you on camera. It's a lot of hassle to do an armed robbery for $100 because if you get caught and you're armed. Oh, the risk reward is way out of balance. You're going to spend quite a bit of time in jail because you had a gun on you. And he was arrested right away, convicted of this robbery.

Now, I don't know if it was armed. You said gun. I don't know if he had a gun or not. Well, if he did, you get more time for sure. So I'm thinking he didn't because he got probation. But of course, you and I talk about it Gibbs. We've seen a lot of people do a lot of bad things and get, you know, slapped on the wrist. Slapped on the wrist.

Probation, time already served. So he goes back to Ohio. His wife at this point is tired of his shit. And no, I don't think anybody can blame her for that. She files for divorce. But as part of the divorce, he is able to see his daughter. But as part of, you know, being able to come over and spend some time with his daughter. one day he would steal a check from his wife's checkbook, right?

They're soon to be divorced. He wrote the checkout for $250, forged her signature on it, and then he takes off to Florida. But he's pretty quickly arrested, charged with petty theft. But what happened as a result is that his parole from Wyoming was revoked. So he was actually sent to prison in Wyoming of March of 1986.

So you got to slap up. on the wrist for the $108. Now for the whopping sum of $250, you're going to take a chance to go to big boy prison. Not the smartest guy around. Really not. To try to make sense of the decisions that some of these people make, you just can't do it because none of us would think about that and say, oh yeah, that makes a hell of a lot of sense because it doesn't. But he only spends about six months. He's out by December of 86, back in Toledo, Ohio. And from this point, you know, his life does seem to get a little better. He meets a new woman, gets a job.

And he's telling all of his friends and family that he wants to get his life straight. And for the first few months, it does seem to be working. But in February of 1987, he gets into some type of fight with his family, borrowed a car from someone. and just decide that he was going to drive to New York City to find a job. He likes to travel, doesn't he? He does like to travel. Now, going from Toledo, Ohio to New York City to find a job, again, also seems like a strange way of thinking to me. You know, where are you going to live?

What type of work are you going to be doing in New York City? Maybe not, maybe this guy's not a pre-planter or a great planner in general. That's what it seems like to me. But he essentially leaves this new girlfriend. doesn't hear from him for quite a period of time. And then she gets a call from him saying that he had abandoned the car on the highway because it had broken down. He had somehow sprained his ankle and he had zero money. So he calls this new girlfriend what she would later describe as in tears, giving her this huge shop story and pleading with her to send him a plane ticket to come home.

And you got to analyze that, right? So you're dating this woman for a short period of time. You leave without telling her you're leaving. You don't call her for an extended period of time. But somehow you're able to call her and say, hey, send me a plane ticket. And she does. So again, that goes back to how good of a BS manipulator was this guy. Absolutely. Smooth talking. I think it points directly to that fact. So he does get home. He gets his plane ticket. He gets. He gets home, he stays with this new girlfriend, and he tells her that he's got an interview for a good job, right? It pays about $13 an hour, but he needs to use her car to get to the interview. And she says, yes, you can use my car. When she gets home that day, Lockhart's not there. And of course, neither is her car. She would also discover she was missing $400 in cash. And it's going to come out

later Gibbs that Michael Lockhart had purchased a plane ticket bound for Georgia. But again, he returns to Toledo and turns himself into police for this crime, this theft, right? Taking the car, taking the money. At this point, we're not talking about a master criminal in the sense of getting away with things because, you know, he readily admits to the things that he's doing at the time. Police release him on his own recognizance, but he never shows up for his trial date in April. There's the dumb part in him. Because he flees again. He just takes off. So are we setting kind of a scene here where any time, at least this is my thinking, Gibbs, anytime the pressure's on, things aren't going your way, he seems to just take off. That's his run away. Run away. That's his

solution to whatever problem he's facing at the time. And the story would later come out from Georgia police would say that there was a man. Now, this is obviously going to turn out to be Michael Lockhart who met a woman just outside of Atlanta during that time period where he was gone. They spent the night together in a hotel. The woman wakes up at 5 a.m. to find Lockhart gone. But not only that, he has stolen her 1986 Toyota SELica, which at that time would have been a pretty new car. Yeah, it would have been. Given the time frame we're talking about. Pretty nice car.

Jewelry, he took all of her jewelry and took from her $300 in cash. He would be arrested for car theft, possession of marijuana. And then in August of 1987, he would rob a home in Illyria, Ohio. So for me, I kind of go back to the story we did. last week about Charles Ray Hatcher, we talked about it in that episode. That guy couldn't stay out of trouble. This guy, he seemed like he had a fairly normal childhood. At a certain point of time, it was almost like he just made the decision Lockhart did that I'm going to do whatever the hell I want. Parallels to Hatcher, I'm going to talk my way out of it. That's why we

spent time talking about how good he was at manipulating and BS. And at some point, after this home robbery in Ohio, he makes his way to Chicago. Because there's a woman on the north side of Chicago who would tell police that a man matching Michael Lockhart's description and who was driving the same type of vehicle that he was known to be driving at the time tried to rape her on October 12, 1987. The very next day, Michael Lockhart would enter the home of 16-year-old Wendy Gallagher and stab her to death in Griffith, Indiana. So he has graduated from being a kind of a low-life piece of shit.

From petty theft. Petty theft to rape and now murder. Rape and murder in back-to-back days. Yeah, the ones that we know of. Yeah, there could have been more, but this is what we know of. But how do you transition from that? You know, he's kind of a con artist to begin with. That's the way I look at it.

Now all of a sudden, in the span of the... two days in two different states, mind you. He rapes a woman in Illinois. He drives to Indiana. They're not far apart. They're right next to each other. And then he stabs to death a 16 year old girl. And we have to talk about the last day of Wendy Gallagher's life. Her mother April was working at her factory job. She worked second shift. She was not going to be home until around 11 p.m. So Wendy and her sister Christine, they leave the house together that morning to catch the school bus. And I was said that they both had keys to the house, right? Because of the schedule that their mom was working, I would have to imagine Gibbs that

they were spending quite a bit of time alone, the two of them. Right. Which a lot of kids do. And especially, I think, when you're talking about the scenario of the hardworking single mother, right? Trying to provide everything that she can for her kids. she has to do what she has to do. And in this scenario, she's working a factory job second shift.

She can't be home to make dinner. No. Her daughters are at school and Wendy gets out of school before Christine and goes home and realizes she doesn't have the right key, goes back to the school, sees Christine gets the right key, goes back home, she gets in the house. You know, for whatever reason, Christine, maybe she has some kind of athletic practice after school, but she doesn't get home until about 6.30 that night. Gets home, you know, goes in and makes something to eat, and then she just thinks maybe, you know, her sister's just taking a nap

because there's no mom there, right? Mom's working. Yeah. So you just come home, you put your books down and make something to eat, snack on and turn on the TV. TV, start studying. But then she goes to try to find Wendy. And that was said it was around seven o'clock and she would find her sister Wendy's body covered in blood on a mattress in the bedroom that they shared. I mean, we talk about horrific scenes and family members finding a loved one dead. This, this would be a very, very tough one, Gibbs. To find your sister, you know they're close. They're spending a lot of time together. They're taking care of each other because their mom's working hard to provide the food and the rent and all of that.

Now, the one thing I left out, I should mention, Wendy was last seen alive by a friend walking towards her apartment around 3.30 p.m. So that was known by police. But we have to, as hard as it is, we have to talk about the scene that Christine encounters. She finds her sister Wendy. She's naked from the waist down. Her hands are tied behind her back and her bra is, is pushed up. She had been stabbed four times in the neck and 17 times in the abdomen. That's, that's what somebody does that can't stand somebody. Right. You and I have talked about that on past episodes. Normally, you would think that that number of wounds would indicate rage. It would also indicate, in a lot of cases, personal, like a personal experience with the victim. Yeah. Or between the

killer and the victim. Well, I mean, it's clearly rage. Rage. You know, the sexual assault. For sure, rage. Yeah. As you can imagine, there was a very large pool of blood. I mean, she would have lost blood very quickly from that number of wounds. And it was said, Gibbs, that her intestines were hanging out. So I know tough details, but this is how vicious this crime scene was and how vicious this murder was against this, you know, poor 16-year-old girl. Yeah, you know, I mean, just petty crimes to this. It's just, I'm sure maybe there was something in between that we just never heard about.

But it does seem strange. But, I mean, that's definitely a, what a ramp up. Well, there's always an escalation. And we see that in a lot of cases. but this one seems to go from, you know, 20 miles an hour to 100 miles an hour in a very short period of time. The ramp up is, is not there that I'm seeing in the research. And to pick, you know, somebody so young. Yeah, very, very sad. Yeah. So what police discover is that there is a photo of Wendy missing from the room along with her purse.

So those are the two things that they determine had been taken. And back to Christine, and again, I can't even imagine what this would be like. She is so upset. She ends up running to another apartment to get help. But she would come out later and say that she, number one, she couldn't believe what she was seeing, but also she didn't want to believe what she was seeing. Yeah, that's something she's never going to forget. It would be horrible to know what your relative went through in this type of horrific crime.

But if you're the one that actually sees it, finds the body, sees the actual evidence of what happened, and that would be a whole different level. The next month on November 8, 1987, Michael Lee Lockhart would rape a woman in Toledo, Ohio. So he's back in Toledo. I mean, that's his home stomping ground. And the woman would later tell police that the man that assaulted her was driving a blue Toyota. So he's still driving around in this Toyota SELICA that he had stolen from the woman in Georgia. But again, we're not talking a long period of time here. August, September, October, November.

He's been driving it around, you know, three months or so. But police would find that car abandoned on November 20th in a hotel parking lot. And what they would later discover is that Lockhart had stolen a Corvette and had left Toledo once again. Now, Gibbs, I don't condone car theft in any way. But if you are going to steal something, why not steal a Corvette? I can see you in a Corvette. Might take me a while to get in. You're a Corvette type of guy.

But once I got in, you're in. I'm actually more of a pickup truck kind of guy, but I have always wanted. You get the need for speed? A sports car. You feel the need for speed? Yeah, I'd really like to have a 68 Camaro. That's always been, 68, 69. I think I lean towards 68.

Yeah. That's always been kind of my dream to have one and restore it and have it look totally stock. Right. But underneath have everything like a big, you know, crate, Chevy V8 or whatever, have all of the new brake technology. That's kind of what I want. That's like incognito. Or, yes. Yeah.

Leave it at that. I think people understood it. Yeah. Where'd you go? Midnight black? Midnight blue, I mean. Midnight blue. Yeah.

My dad actually had one. He has an old polaroid of it. And I think that's kind of what got me turned on to that car. Yeah. My brother had a 68 midnight blue, but he had like the engine was all decked out. And he decided to wrap around a telephone pole one night. So that'll do it. That will do it.

So that hurt me getting my hot rod. Oh, yeah. Because once the older sibling does something stupid. Yeah. the younger siblings are totally affected by that. Yeah. So no power car for me. No.

Is that when you get your Ugo? That would have been, that would have been good. Hugo. Uh-huh. Oh, you're saying that was a step up from what you got? I had a little, I had to start off with a little chavette. Oh, I remember the chavette. Yeah.

I rolled a chavet like four times. Actually, my brother took mine out with the three of his buddies, and his buddies were all like, you know, the six-four type of guys. Uh-huh. And they actually rolled it into a. pond and they had to get it out and they actually got it out. It actually did. They got it back to the house. That was the scariest accent I was ever in. And it wasn't even, it was just me and my buddy driving. He was driving. Yeah. It was I didn't have, it was his mom's car or something. And he turned the corner, was slick, turned it too quick. And next day I know, we were airborne.

And then we were just rolling. It rolled like four times. I had a buddy had a Volkswagen bug, souped up, if you can call one of those souped up. pooped up. You didn't have to pull start it. You just started like normal, right? So he had, what do you have a bigger rubber band than what it came with? And he went around the corner one time and his door didn't work real well and I slid out

all across the intersection. The door just flew open? Yeah, flew open as he took a corner road fast. So you weren't wearing your seatbelt? I don't wear a seatbelt. Yeah. And I slid across. Yeah.

I was all right. Got up, dust myself up. Buckle up. It was good times. All right. Sorry, we got off on a tangent there.

But so getting back to Lockhart, he's stolen this Corvette. He's fled Toledo again. And this is where police would, you know, they ultimately, they'd be able to do it. But they would have to piece together this journey that Lockhart makes. And it's going to take him through a bunch of different states, Texas, Indiana, Louisiana, our home state of Ohio and Florida. Yeah, it's a traveler, man. He is a trie's a rambling man. He's a rambling man.

And you got to talk about the story of how he gets this Corvette. He goes to a car dealership. He asks if he can drive this brand new red Corvette. The salesman had to go out with him. But they actually get out on the highway. They're driving the car. And Lockhart pulls a gun on the car salesman as they're riding down the road. And he would later say that he told the man, quote, I hate to do this, but I got to take your wallet, which he does.

and he leaves the man stranded on the side of the road. Well, that's better than what he could have done. Oh, sure. I mean, in the grand scheme of things, I lost my wallet and didn't get hurt. All right, I'm good with that. It's still traumatic experience, but that could have gone, you know, much, much worse. And he would use the stolen credit cards of this car salesman at a mall. But what he bought Gibbs, he bought tapes.

He bought records. He bought music. So he was into the arts. He was a patron of the arts. But he ends up eventually going to Chicago where he had a woman there that he was seeing. You know, his stay in Chicago didn't last very long. He ends up driving all the way down to Miami, Florida. And it's in Miami, Florida that he's using the name Rick Osgood.

This was the name of the car salesman. So it's the name that matched the ID. It matched the credit cards that he had stolen. You know, back then it probably took a while with a stolen credit card still. Remember back in the day, you'd have to flip through that little book that Visa MasterCard would send out and you would check the last four digits and see if it was stolen or not. Yeah. It was not electronic. I mean, that's still back in the day where you're putting the card on that and running it across and making an imprint.

Yeah, the little carbon slider thing. Yeah. So I know it took a long time to catch up with people, right? The police were much farther behind people that were using stolen credit. cards than they are today. Lockhart is tied to a robbery on January 12th, 1988 in Jacksonville, Florida. So he robbed this shoe store and it would be in Florida where Lockhart would commit his next murder. And it's not long after the robbery of this shoe store. It's January 20th, 1988. And a 14-year-old student named Jennifer Coler, you know, just a ninth grade student, Gibbs. She had left

her high school and was walking home to her house. And it was around 3 p.m. on that day that Lockhart would say he picked Jennifer randomly as he was driving the Red Corvette through her neighborhood. And he saw Jennifer walking and ultimately go into her house. But the other thing that Lockhart saw was that the house she was living in was for sale. So he came up with the idea of, of posing as a real estate agent. So he rings the doorbell, makes introductions with this Jennifer Colher, is asking her about the house and at one point asks if he could use the phone. And as Lockhart is using the phone or acting like he's using the phone, Jennifer's in the

kitchen, he sneaks up behind her, clamps a hand over her mouth and carries her upstairs. And he would take her to her younger brother's bedroom. And he would proceed to rape her, stab her, and would ultimately choke her to death. Now, he would later claim that he blacked out and couldn't remember what he had done. He says that when he came to, he saw the body, but had no idea how this girl ended up in the state that she was in. I mean, Gibbs, she was, she was mutilated. There's no other word to use. You know, she had been violated.

She'd been stabbed so many times that, you know, her body was mutilated. You know, she was found partially nude, hands tied behind her back, very similar to the other murder that we talked about. Yeah, Wendy. And again, she had been disembowed. This is the kind of knife work, the stabbing that took place ended up leaving her disembowed. Well, if you're going to stab somebody's abdomen area, that many times. And what it, I mean, it's, it's sad, right? We, we talk about this all the time.

Sad when anybody gets murdered, but especially, you know, somebody of this age. But what is even more sad about this case is that about three hours later, her younger brother comes home, her younger brother, Jeremy, he's only eight years old, comes home with his dad and his other sister, Jennifer's other sister. They're stopping home for a minute. He's got to go to soccer practice. But he has to go upstairs because he doesn't have his shin guards and his cleats. And when he turns on his bedroom light, he sees the body of his sister on his bed.

Can't even imagine. Eight years old. Can't even. Can't even. Obviously, he screamed for his dad. And it would be said later that he ran down the stairs. so fast that he fell and tumbled down the stairs. And we kind of mentioned it, but police would later say that this scene was almost a mirror image to the murder of Wendy Gallagher just a few months

prior. So Lockhart would stay in Florida until the end of February, but he would end up leaving and moving on to Louisiana. He was a suspect in a bank robbery just outside of New Orleans. someone who they assume was Lockhart used the name Rick Osgood to check into a hotel in Baton Rouge. He would rob a savings and loan in Baton Rouge and then take off towards Beaumont, Texas. But as he's traveling, his car is spotted by a police officer named Paul Holsey. And Officer Holsey had seen the car in a parking lot, ran the plates, and found out that it had been stolen. an officer holsey called for backup after he figured out what room the suspect was in that he had believed was driving this stolen car the problem was his backup was right in the middle of dealing

with a pedestrian fatality so he had to make a decision that you know he was going to try to take care of this situation on his own when the suspect came out of his room. But the way it went down Gibbs was there was a violent struggle when Officer Holsey confronted Michael Lockhart. Lockhart was able to get his gun, the officer's gun, and he shot Officer Holsey to death. And Paul Holsey, he was only 30 years old. He'd been on the force for eight years, but he left behind a wife and two very young daughters. 25 years ago today, the Beaumont Police Department lost Officer Paul Holsey Jr. Holsey left behind his wife, two daughters, his parents, and other relatives.

Small, really personal items that brought back all kind of memories. We were at the mall and he was at the mall and he was working and I yelled, Daddy. It's just one of those things if you're undercover, you don't really want to happen. Those first couple of years I had a lot of fear that came along with that. I just, you know, here Michael Lockhart was locked up, but I was little and I thought, well, what if he told his friends that because he killed our dad and he got locked up because of us, he was going to come after us. That was the kind of things that just in my little imagination, I would worry and so I would lay

at bed just wide awake. To me, when I think of closure, I think you have answers and you know why. I don't know why he did that. And I can see, I can see some good things like we've talked about that have come from that. But the real wise, I'll probably never know. So that was a clip many years later of one of Paul Holsey's daughters talking about him. But the reason Gibbs that I really wanted to play that was because, you know, we just don't always think about the people that are left behind, right? The families of the victims.

and you can hear her talking about her dad. You know, she was so young, she never got to, what's the word I'm looking for, experience her father. The way that she should have. Yeah. Yeah. She didn't have him in her life. She has his moments, like she said.

She remember calling out daddy at the mall and all that. Yeah, that's great. But yeah, she didn't get to have a dad walk her down the aisle. She didn't get to have a dad be there for those critical times. talks because of what this asshole did, right? He took someone's life and now she's had to deal with it and it sounds like she's doing as good as she can with it. She actually is doing really well. You know, she's married. I think she has five kids of her own. So she's doing well, but she had, like you mentioned, she has those memories, but just a short period of time worth of memories.

Yeah. When she should have had, you know, such a, such a bigger pool to draw from. Exactly. Now, after the murder of Officer Halsey, Lockhart would take off going east through Texas and he wrecked the Corvette just prior to the Louisiana state border. And he stumbles into this ice cream shop. You know, he uses the bathroom, washes off some blood. He had sustained some cuts in this accident. And it's at this shop where he gives a man $50. to drive him to Beaumont. And from there, he's going to take a taxi towards Houston.

But the police are on his tail. And they stop the taxi about 60 miles outside of Beaumont. They arrest Michael Lee Lockhart. You know, they arrest him. And as he's being taken to jail, there's media, there's TV cameras all around. Michael Lee Lockhart would make the statement saying, yeah, I am going to die in the electric chair. And when he was asked why, he said, because I killed somebody. That's why. So he was making no excuses, no lies at this point. He was admitting to, you know, what he had done.

The shooting of the officer. But eventually they would tie him to the murders of Jennifer Colher and Wendy Gallagher. And ultimately, Lockhart is given death sentences for all three of these murders. He would, convicted of killing Officer Holsey on October 4th, 1988, found guilty of capital murder. He was found guilty of murdering Wendy Gallagher on July 19th, 1989. And he pled guilty to the murder of Jennifer Colher on December 12, 1989. So he was completely wrapped up in, I don't know, in my experience, Gibbs is a pretty short amount of time for three murders that occurred in three different jurisdictions. Now, during his trial for the murder of Paul Holsey, he did try to escape through a third floor court window, but that didn't work out too well. He was caught. Probably wouldn't work out if he got out anyway. Yeah, I don't know. He seemed to be caught pretty

easily. You know, from from his past experiences of the things that he'd done, you know, he might have been a great bullshitter. He might have been really good at sweet talking people. He wasn't really good at getting away with things. Now, there was a doctor who was treating him who testified during the trial saying that Michael Lee Lockhart was haunted by homosexual impulses. These are words directly from the doctor. And he was haunted because of trauma resulting from incest that the doctor said that he was a victim of from ages 9 to 12. Now, we didn't talk about this in the childhood portion of Michael Lee Lockhart because again, I think this is Lockhart telling this to the doctor. I don't know the validity of it.

I really don't. Now, if it's true, the doctor is saying that. these experiences most likely caused him to become violent, especially with younger women and enraged with men if he got into a situation where he felt cornered. So this is the doctor's take on it. Again, I don't have any evidence proof of whether this happened to him when he was younger or not. I don't think a lot of people involved with the case involved with the trial thought that he was telling the truth about this. Now, after the conviction, Lockhart would come out and say, quote, I'm guilty for those three cases and take full responsibility for those cases.

He would actually say Gibbs, I wish I could give my life in place of theirs. Yeah, they always say something stupid like that. You know what I'm saying. It's their way of saying. Do you really think somebody like Michael Lee Lockhart would trade places and say? For once, say, I did a really bad thing. I'm sorry. Yeah.

I'd like to trade place. You know, he would have. Yeah. So, you know, he did admit to it. But then you get into all that, you know, if I, and maybe some people are honest and genuine when they say, if I could take it back, I would. My question to that always is, are you saying that because you got caught? And if you could take it back, you wouldn't be in prison right now.

Yeah. Or are you taking it, or would you take it back because you genuinely feel sorry that you took another person's life? I find it very hard to believe basically anything that comes out of someone's mouth, a person such as Michael Lockhart after the fact. Now, he did say, I don't think I could have stopped killing. So it was fortunate that I got caught. The first part of that statement, I believe. I don't think he would have or could have stopped killing.

And the only reason he did is because he was God. Right. So technically, it was fortunate that he was caught. caught, but there's no way that he believes that that was a good thing, right? He's saying that because what else he going to say? Yeah. He's not going anywhere. He might as well say whatever at this point. But if he thought that was the truth, why he'd turn himself in after the first one? So right before he is about Ray to be executed, he says he's at peace with himself. He says he's not afraid to die. And at one point, while he's in the prison system, he claimed to have killed

29 people. Now, did he kill 29 people? I don't know. Was that a brag? Was that a boast? You can bet your your ass. It's probably more than three. I believe so. Maybe not 29. I think on his ramp up, there was more besides the police officer and the two young girls. Yeah, I mean, we kind of dove into it. How did it go from zero to 60 in that time? And maybe the answer is it didn't. Maybe there was a much more prolonged ramp up period where the crimes got increasingly worse. We don't know about him. And maybe he did kill more people than we know. I don't know about 29.

29 is a massive number. But right before the execution, he would change his statement and say that he did only kill three people, the three that he was convicted of. And of course, he said he had become religious while he was on death row and that he was remorseful for what he had done, it is amazing how many people find religion in jail on death row when they know they're getting ready to meet their maker. He would also say that he didn't blame anyone but himself and he would talk about the fact that while he was in prison, he had been reading a lot of psychology books. And he said this was so that he could try and understand

what was wrong with him. People have all kind of weird thoughts. The difference is people is people acting and not acting on those thoughts. Yeah. Speaking from someone that I believe has a lot of weird thoughts, I would consider you maybe an authority on that. I'm just saying. And not acting. People act and don't act.

Allegedly. Allegedly. But he would talk again about his conclusions of, I guess what you'd call his investigation into his own psyche. And he would say that he thought everything stemmed back to the age. of about six years old, where he claimed he was molested by more than one individuals over a two-year period. But none of his family came out.

No, I don't think there's any corroboration to that. Doesn't mean it didn't happen. No, no, no. But there's really just no facts that I'm aware of to corroborate his story. He would say that he had been shown the wrong things about life from that trauma that he endured as a child, and he believed that if he had received help for the issues that he was dealing with, he would not have done what he did. Maybe.

Maybe not. I don't know. It's just, it's so hard to believe anything that somebody like this says, because you know this is a, a master con artist. And you have to keep that in mind when you're evaluating their statement. Exactly. they're always they're always playing you that's what I'm saying they're always looking to get over so lockhart's last meal was a double cheeseburger french fries and a Coke pretty small meal compared to

some of the other ones that we've talked about on previous episodes right that is a a pretty simple meal when it comes to last meals and his last words prior to being executed were a lot of people view what is happening here is evil. But I want you to know that I found love and compassion here. The people who work here, I thank them for the kindness they have shown me, and I deeply appreciate all that has been done for me by the people who work here. That's all, Warden, I'm ready. So that was his final statement. Yeah, because before he said that, I mean, his other statement was that he reached out to the families and said, I hope my death will bring you some comfort. Does he mean that? Probably not, but he said it to him.

So they got to hear his, you know, those words before his final statement. I don't know if the families take anything from that at all. But again, if you have to weigh the two between the, I'm sorry for what I did, I'm sorry to the families versus the F you and I hope I see you all in hell, you know, that kind of rambling. Obviously, you'd rather hear the first, the first one. So he did spend his last couple of days with friends. who had, you know, driven down from Toledo.

They were there to watch the execution. Paul Holsey's dad was there. Wendy Gallagher's mother was there. Jennifer Colher's dad was a witness as well. And also her stepdad. And these are the people, like you mentioned, that Lockhart is talking to in expressing. Now, I don't know if he even, did he express remorse?

That's the thing. To my knowledge, he didn't actually say he was sorry. One of the things that he said, and maybe he did, and I just, I don't remember it, but I know one of the things that he said was, and you touched on it, I hope my death will bring you some comfort, but that's not saying, I'm sorry I killed your daughter or your, your husband, or your son or whatever. Those are two different things. Michael Lockhart was given the lethal injection on December 9th, 1997. So Michael Lee Lockhart is dead, but there are some other. unsolved cases that were out there that they tried to tie him to. One was a case from Nevada that happened in

1987 and it was the murder of a woman named Kathy Hobbs. And people would say later about Kathy Hobbs that she was always talking about these feelings, these premonitions that she had that she would not make it to her 16th birthday. So she had these fears, this, um, this very strong anxiety Gibbs over dying young. And her family was obviously concerned about this. They would at one point move to Las Vegas. And Kathy Hobbs, you know, she made friends in Las Vegas. She was doing very well.

And then it started to get closer and closer to her 16th birthday. But it came and went. And she was fine. So because of that, she, you know, she got over those fears. she started acting more and more like a normal teenager, and those fears and anxiety subsided. She started getting interested in makeup. And because of that, she decided that she wanted to be a beautician. But Kathy Hobbs would vanish on July 23rd, 1987, after saying she was going to go to the local

grocery store to pick a few things up. Now, her mother thought she was going to walk with some of her friends, but she ended up going alone. And when her mother discovered that her bed was empty the next morning, she called the police. And police went to the store. They were talking to an employee who said that Kathy had bought a book and left. So she had been there. Didn't see anything strange going on during the time that she was there. They could confirm she was there. They confirmed she bought a book. But they didn't know what happened to her after she left. Police believed that she had been abducted. And then, but they had no witnesses, they had no way to corroborate that theory. And it was nine days later that a geologist looking for rock crystals would find her body in a field by Lake Mead. You know, police are doing their investigation. They discover some tire tracks, which showed a vehicle had pulled in, turned around and left. There were two rocks discovered by her body that were covered in blood. And they realized that,

most likely she had died from repeated blows to the head. She died Gibbs three months after she turned 16 years old. But it was three months after she had vanished. This is an October of 87 that the Las Vegas Police Department received a call anonymously from someone that said they had seen the abduction. And this person gave the correct location where Kathy had last been seen, had described what she had been wearing, which turned out to be correct. And this is a case that police would ultimately link to Michael Lockhart. And it was through that stolen blue Toyota that he drove around for quite a period of time that we talked about. There were blue fibers at the scene, which matched that car, fibers from that car.

There were also credit card receipts that put him in the area at the time of the murder. And before he died, they did get a chance to talk to him. And it's been said that he pretty much confessed to the crime. So the murder of Kathy Hobbs is now considered solved. But they never took him to trial, right? He already had three different death sentences and three different states. So they could close out this case. They could consider it solved.

Not run the family through all that. Not put the family through that. Not spend all the money and not generate all the publicity. Right. That is the case of Michael Lee Lockhart. Another sicko. Another POS that is no longer breathing our air. Thank goodness.

And again, we talk about this. But whether you believe in the death penalty or not, I'm not going to lose any sleep tonight, over the fact that Michael Lee Lockhart is no longer here. Not when you know for sure 100% somebody did something. He admitted to it. It's done. Time to move on.

Yeah, there was no speculation in this case. He readily admitted what he'd done. There's no. He killed two children. There's no rehab here. No. You know, he said, Gibbs, he was not going to stop doing this. And he was, uh, he had something bad within him.

We've got some voicemails, so let's play some of those. Okay. Hello, this is Dr. Adams out here in Overland Park, Kansas. A big fan of your guys' show. Just curious when the next episode is going to come on. I actually listen to this as I'm doing surgery. So, big fan, I don't know. Did I miss something somewhere?

Are you guys off for a little bit? I've heard every single one of your podcast, because like I said, every day I do surgery, I listen to a complete podcast. and half of another one sometimes if the case goes too long. So, hey, once again, today is, what is the day? Day is January 9th, 2018. Other than that, don't have way too much to say. I got to get back to work.

I got to keep somebody else's time ticking, along with my own time ticking. Thank you, brother, man. Talk to you soon. Bye. All right, we got a surgeon. That's who I want working on me, Gibbs, listening to True Crime. Yeah. Stay in focus.

Staying focus. Now, the one thing he said, he just left that on the 9th. And we haven't, all of our episodes are out. The only one we missed was Thanksgiving. Yeah. Was there a mess up with our website for a little bit that didn't show all the episodes or something like that? Yeah, maybe if he's listening from the website, I had forgotten to update it for a couple of

weeks. But obviously on Apple Podcasts or any of the podcast apps, they're out there right away. I think there were some issues with people getting the new iPhone or one of the If they update it, the new iOS or something like that, it jacked all their podcast up and they couldn't find their favorites again. They had to go back. I don't know. There was something out there. But that's cool.

Do a little surgery. You know, watch the junior men flipping in there. But, you know. You with the junior men's. But the new episodes are out there. So check it out, Adam. Hey, fellas. It's Shannon in Denver, North Carolina.

And I just wanted to say I'm completely addicted to your podcast. I listen to it from the car. I listen to it at work, although I have to be a little careful because I teach small children and don't want to get caught listening to that. Although I do have coworkers that come in and ask me every day what kind of a sort of assorted tail you've been weaving. And I just want to say I really appreciate what you do. You guys get me through my commute and you get me through housework and everything else.

So thanks for the great work you're doing and keep your own time ticking. All right. Great voicemail from Shannon. Yeah, I like that. In Denver, North Carolina. I didn't know there was a Denver, I just heard Denver. So I just automatically went to, you know, Colorado.

No, she said Denver, North Carolina. That's interesting. I didn't know that. But so teacher, sounds like. Yeah, maybe. You know, got a bunch of kids. Yeah, probably don't want them to hear this or maybe. But her coworkers are asking about it.

So hopefully she's getting them hooked on it as well. Yeah, just glad to get her through her commute. Yep. Hi, guys. It's Sydney Davis here. I wanted to just call and give a shout out to Tracy Sunny. the night we met at her and my husband's Christmas party. She actually took my phone and downloaded your podcast for me right there at the dinner table

and turned me into a Gibby and the Furkster fan. You guys are awesome and your chemistry together is superbly spectacular. Gibby, you're a gangster and I love it. Berkster, you, sir, make everything interesting. Sorry, almost said it wrong. Maggie, sweet Maggie, your research and writing are incomparable. Keep up the good work and keep your own time ticking because if you don't, my morning commute on Mondays are going to start sucking out loud.

Peace out. So really, really cool voicemail. Yeah, she gave a triple shout out to us. Yeah. And I found it very interesting. That I'm a gangster. That I'm a gangster. Pretty bad.

Great shout out for Maggie, which is awesome. But that's a true friend. Absolutely. That will take your phone and say, what the hell are you doing? If you're not listening to true crime all the time, I'm going to down. I'm going to download it right now. You know what? I think everybody listening to this right now.

Stop what you're doing. Look to the left. Look to the right. Grab your, whoever's by you, grab their phone and put us on it. If you don't know them, it could get a little dicey. It could get a little dicey, but give it a try, do it with a smile. Yep. Say you're going to love it.

You're appreciated and your think is later. Think about the numbers gives. If every person that listens to us would do that, to, for one other person. We would double up. We would double. Can you do that? I was waiting for you to do that math.

That's that easy math. You wanted to say we double 2.5. 2.5. That's awesome. That was a cool voicemail. I liked it. Hi. My name's Jackie and I'm 31 from Sweden.

And I'm a huge fan. And I just want to tell you, you guys are great. and I might have taken an Ambien before going to bed because it's like 10 p.m. over here. So if I sound stupid, then you'll know why. What else? Yeah. You're the best. Keep up the good work.

You're awesome. Stay safe. Bye. I would have never known that she took an Ambien. No, because you take an ambient before we start. recording every time. I'm on Amian right now. Now, you know what? Her English was amazing. I mean, you could hear just a, a slight bit of an accent? She was in Sweden, Ohio. Sweet in Ohio.

No, I mean, her English is... Well, she did it at a very slow pace. Still? She did, no, she did good. Better than you. Having fun with her. Better than yours. Better, yeah. Huh. Maybe I needed, maybe I should take it AMian. You sound great. Appreciate. it. Keep up the good listening. Yep, we love it. All right, Gibbs. So another voicemail from Frog Demon. Yeah. Who he calls himself. And he actually left. You say he. He could be she. Yeah, he, you know, we don't know. But the person actually left a bunch of other ones that we're going to save and play on Unsolved. So if you want to hear the rest of them. Yeah, the one is a little creepier. Yeah. They get, they actually get a little creepier, but we're going to save those for the

unsolved episodes. Yeah. All right, Gibbs. That is... Did they say... How did it sign off? A friend or an friend? A friend. Okay, so we had that Patreon that was an friend.

No, yeah, this person always signs off as a friend, but it comes through. Their name is a frog demon. A frog demon. A frog demon. Gotcha. All right. All right, Gibbs. So that is the case of Michael Lee Lockhart and another episode of true crime all the time.

So for Mike... And Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking. Thank you.