True Crime All The Time - Michael Sanders

Episode Date: April 17, 2023

On August 31st, 1997, Michael Sanders along with a group of supposed bounty hunters forcefully entered a home in Phoenix, Arizona, holding a woman and children at gunpoint and fatally shooting two of the home’s occupants. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss this baffling case of what prosecutors eventually called a robbery gone wrong. When the bounty hunters were arrested, the police learned that they were using expired paperwork, and the individual they were after didn’t even live at the house. But as normally happens, members had many differing accounts of what transpired. Who would the jury believe?You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 329 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. How are you? I'm doing good. How about yourself? Doing very well. Good. You had an interesting week.

I did. Got some good news and we were both very happy about it. Yeah. Yeah. So I had a little heart cat thing and I feel good. Yeah. And the news came back great. Yeah.

So, yeah, I was thrilled. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Nan Saxton. Hey, Nan. Carly Barber. What's going on, Carly? Emma. Emma.

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Okay. Jackie Coker. What's going on, Jackie? Nanny Sexton. Hey, Nanny. Mona Fredericksson. Thank you, Mona. Ricky O'Brien.

There's Ricky. Allison Burke. What's up, Allison? Nicole Martland. Hey, Nicole. Tamara Ebel. Hey, hi. Nebel.

Did you put an end in front of it? Did I? Yeah. Maybe. Sound like it. Mike Dill. What's going on, Mike? Winter S.

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Hey, Heidi. And last but not least, Michelle Bailey. Hey, Michelle. So we appreciate all that new support. And then if we go back into the vault, this week, we selected James Can. What's up, James? So we appreciate all the long-term supporters as well. We actually just got done recording our Patreon, Minnesota that we put out every week.

Talked a little bit about Lori Valo following us sleep during her trial and a few other things. We have fun doing those. We do. We also always talk about what movies or shows we're watching at the current moment. We do. Gibbs right now on true crime all the time unsolved. We have an episode out on Lisa Al. So we're headed to Hawaii.

And basically she was last seen driving away and then her body was found 10 days later. Yeah. So we're look at everything that led up to that moment and the investigation afterwards. Yeah. And it is somewhat of a strange one. because the cause of her death has still not been determined. Right. Which really clouds.

It hurts the investigation. Yeah, it clouds everything. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? Yeah, I'm ready. We're talking about a guy named Michael Sanders. Now, there were four other people involved in this episode, but Michael Sanders is kind of thought to be the ringleader. So that's what I named the episode.

it would be a really long title to put all of the individual's names in there. It would be. On August 31, 1997, a group of supposed bounty hunters forcefully entered a home in Phoenix, Arizona, holding a woman and children at gunpoint and fatally shooting two of the home's occupants. When the bounty hunters were arrested, the police learned that they were using expired paperwork work and that the individual they were after didn't even live at the house. Boy, that's concerning. And really not good if you're these quote unquote bounty hunters.

The bounty hunters were 40-year-old Michael Sanders, 45-year-old David Brackney, his son, 20-year-old Matthew Brackney, 28-year-old Brian J. Robbins, and 29-year-old Ronald Eugene Tim. So this group of bounty hunters, we're looking for an out of state bail jumper. This individual owed a California bond company $25,000. Do you ever think about being a bounty hunter? I crossed my mind a few times. Because I feel like that's something you really be good at with your skills,

your tracking skills, your hand-to-hand combat skills, reconnaissance, all of that. I think I gave dog a run for his money. Yeah. I used to watch dog. the bounty hunter. Did he get in trouble? I feel like he got into some type of trouble because he kind of disappeared. Yeah. All of a sudden.

But to be honest with you, I have trouble watching pretty much any of those shows now. I just feel like everything is so staged. And I'm sure it was back then. I just didn't realize it. But now that I know that it is, it's hard for me to watch. Yeah. It's hard to believe anything you see now. My daughter was watching this one of these toe.

shows like South Beach towing or something. And so they go to pick up this RV and just right on cue, this couple walks out from the beach and says, hey, what are you, you know, where are you taking our RV? Yeah.

And right away is like, I'm out. Doesn't happen that one. No. Yeah. There's no way that it was that precise. But every time I think of bounty hunters, I think of the movie Midnight Run.

You ever seen that with Robert De Niro? It's an older movie like 80s. Yeah. It's a great movie. Robert De Niro, Charles Groden, and Robert De Niro is a bounty hunter chasing Charles Gruden. So what happened was that four men entered the home around 4 a.m. on August 31st, 1997, by forcing open a side door with a sledgehammer. The group were wearing black ski masks and body armor, and they were armed. The getaway driver was waiting outside and listening to a. police scanner. So I guess we should go back and talk about, you know, these bounty hunters,

you know, some bond company is owed $25,000. Right. So they're going to pay these guys X amount to get this person back so that they don't forfeit the $25,000. One of the bounty hunters held a woman and her three children at gunpoint. Two other men were also held at gunpoint. And two of the men kicked down a bedroom and engaged in a kind of a shootout with two of the homes occupants. Inside the house were 23-year-old Chris Foote and 19-year-old Springwright. They were a couple. Now, sources differ on their ages, but we went with the majority like we normally do, and they listed them as 23 and 19.

A woman named Louisa Shera and her three children were also living in the house, as well as Jason Foote, Chris Foote's brother and Louisa's boyfriend, and 17-year-old Ryan Coleman. Louisa was sleeping in a bedroom with her daughters when the men broke in. She woke up to two men. On top of her tying her hands up, Louisa told the Arizona Republic, I was in bed with my two girls. Then these two guys beat me in the head with a flashlight.

I kept screaming at them, what the hell do you want? You know, so already I'm, I'm picturing this encounter in my head and, you know, it's, it's nightmarish type stuff. If you're not doing anything wrong, you're tucked away safely in your residence, you're sleep. The last thing you expect is for armed people to barge in, jump on you, start tying you up. Right. It kind of reminds me of the swatting episode that we did. Yeah. That we did. Yeah. We did that on Patreon. So Louisa and her three children were held at gunpoint by a masked man.

Jason Foote was taken into the living room by the bounty hunters. And Ryan Coleman was in the third bedroom in the house. Luis's bedroom door was open and she could see two more men kicking in Chris Foote's bedroom door where he was sleeping with his girlfriend Spring Wright. Chris Foote shot it to two men when they kicked the door. out, but they fired back and killed both Chris and Spring. The other occupants in the house were shouting warnings to Chris and Spring, which is probably why, you know, he had time to get a gun out and try to defend himself. Chris and Spring were shot in their bed. Chris was shot in the chest.

According to the Phoenix New Times, David Brackney is believed to have been the first one to shoot Chris foot. Brackney was shot in the right hand. All right. So let's imagine this scenario. What a nightmare. Well, you know, again, you're in your bed. You start to hear commotion.

People are yelling. This guy has access to a gun. He gets it, presumably, to defend himself because he has no idea what's going on. Right. Sounds like a home invasion. Yeah. Now I have no idea how this went down other than it sounds as, though shots were exchanged and Chris didn't hit anybody, but the other individuals did.

And one of the questions that went through my mind, and I have no idea what the answer is, is just what type of training that Chris had. Because one of the things that I always think about is if you're going to have a gun in the home, some people believe in that, some people don't, I get it. But if you're going to choose to do that legally, one of the things that I think has to along with it is different types of training. Gun safety being a really big one. Of course.

But then also, you know, you got to learn how to shoot. And preferably, if you're holding this gun for self-defense, shoot in a very tense situation. Because it's not enough just to have a gun. If that's the route you're going to go. And I think we see it here in this scenario. Yeah, I think you have to. learn and know how to use it and those critical times. Yeah, because there's a very big difference

from going out to the range and kind of leisurely, you know, shooting at targets to being in a life and death situation. Yeah, where you're shooting within a couple seconds and you, like, you hope you hit your target. Yeah, it is a very different type of thing. After the shooting, the gunmen left the home, Louisa Sharra saw them get into two cars, according to the Arizona. Republic, one of the vehicles dropped off two injured men, David Brackney and Michael Sanders, at the hospital. And this is the kind of the point in a lot of the action movies where people have to make a decision. Do we take these people to the hospital? You know, anytime you've got a gunshot wound, that's not going to go under the radar, right? That's going to be reported.

So was it that they thought they were doing the right thing? They thought they were okay. or they just thought it doesn't matter. We got to get these people help. By September 1st, three bounty hunters had been arrested in Phoenix, Arizona. Matthew Brackney was arrested and charged with second degree murder. Michael Sanders and David Brackney were still hospitalized for gunshot wounds to the arms. Two other bounty hunters were still on the run. So not too hard to find Michael and David, right?

they were hospitalized. Sounds like they found Matthew and Phoenix, and there's still two that they're looking for. Just after the shooting, the survivors said there may have been seven bounty hunters. But on September 2nd, police sergeant Mike Torres said investigators thought there may have been fought. You know, I'm not really surprised that they could get the numbers wrong here. I mean, you think about the situation and how chaotic it was. I'm sure that everybody was, was really scared for their, their lives, kind of goes back to that thing that we've talked about a number of times, which is, you know, if you were working, let's say, at a convenience store, somebody came in, robbed you, stuck a loaded gun right in your face, what exactly would you

remember? The gun, probably, because that was your center of attention. Sure. But could you then relay to police all of the pertinent details about the perpetrator. And a lot of times it's not that easy that easy because the person is so scared, they don't think about, oh, well, I better get a good look. I better, you know, estimate the height and look at the hair color and eye color and all that. Just doesn't always happen. Investigators also said that they didn't think the bail jumper was in the house and may

never have lived there. Chris Foote's relatives confirmed that neither Chris nor Spring knew the bail jumper and they weren't wanted for any crimes. But it just makes the whole scenario even worse. Yeah, bad enough that two people lost their lives. And then when it comes out that police don't even believe that they had anything to do with it, even knew the person, the person had ever lived there. Okay, what were you doing barging into that house then?

So obviously we'll talk about that as we go along. Chris Foote worked in construction and enjoyed rock and rap music. He was described as the type of person who would do anything for anyone. Spring Wright worked at a local Arby's. She was taking college classes and wanted to join law enforcement one day. Chris Foote was living in his childhood home. He began living with friends once his parents moved out. Spring Wright's 20th birthday was supposed to be Tuesday, September 2nd, 1997.

She and Chris had plans to pick out an engagement ring and they were set to get married in 1998. Spring's parents, Melody Mueller and Mike Wright said that meeting Chris changed her life. As a young teenager, Spring refused to go to school and work and, you know, she ran through multiple jobs. But Mike Wright told the Arizona Republic, they got each other back on the right track. They changed each other for the good. Some people can do that. Well, I think you see that in couples quite often. Yeah.

Especially if you go the opposite. It's a track route. Right. So, you know, my wife is very detail oriented. I'm not. I'm more of a fly by the seat of my pants type of person. Both of those styles can be good for certain things. And if you can balance the two out,

then you know, you might have something there. You guys compliment each other. Yeah. But the other thing I think is that, you know, if you fall in love and you have somebody that you want to be a better person for, you know, maybe that's the scenario we had here that they each wanted to kind of write the ship

for each other. The New York Times reported that Maricopa County Attorney Richard Romley called the deaths troubling and said they warranted a look at new laws on bounty hunters. Okay, seems like troubling is a bit of a euphemism. Yeah.

A little bit more than troubling. Chris Foote family said they would conduct a petition drive to persuade lawmakers to restrict the activities of bounty hunters. Tom Foote, Chris's father said, I used to think I was safe in my house. Now I don't. This could happen to any family.

And we know it can. Well, we know it can. And normally we're talking about it on TCAT from the standpoint of, you know, some kind of twisted, sadistic killer. That's not the scenario we're talking about here. No. You know, we're talking about five individuals who thought they were completing a job. The problem is they broke into a house based on what, I don't know, possibly bad intel,

and people ended up dead as a result of it. Now, in many states, bounty hunters don't need court orders or warrants to bring bail jumpers back to jail. If federal law from the 18th century allows bounty hunters to enter in search houses without warrants. But at that time, in Arizona, Bounty hunters were not supposed to enter residences of third parties without permission, but otherwise had almost no restrictions. And I do think that's a little scary. It is. Of a thought.

It's scary that no one thought that it was time to update that law. And I'm sure some states did, but some didn't. So, you know, I'm not saying anything bad about bounty hunters, but what do you need to do to become a bounty hunter. Yeah. And I don't know the answer to that, but. I think it varies per per state. It might, but, you know, is it extensive?

Is it, you know, obviously it's not to the same degree as becoming a law enforcement officer or something like that. So, you know, kind of giving them free reign and they're running around with guns. I don't, it's a little scary thought. It is. Because something like this can happen. According to the website legal match, bounty hunter laws. state that before a bounty hunter can act,

a court must typically issue a bench warrant for failure to appear in court. So when a defendant signs a bail bond contract, they sign an agreement allowing a bounty hunter to come after them if they break the contract, which gives that person permission to enter their home and transport them across state lines. There are four states that do not allow bounty hunting, and that's Oregon, Kentucky, Wisconsin, and Illinois. I don't know how Illinois feels about it, though. I didn't read that.

Yeah, well, you know, Illinois is a very tough state. So they may allow it. We don't know. We don't know. It's good to know that I just need to go to Kentucky. Kentucky, just, you know, an hour away and I'm safe. You're safe from bounty hunters, I guess. But it was said that before a bounty hunter,

can enter a home. They must have reasonable suspicion that the fugitive is there, which depends on the case and state laws. You know, and that reasonable thing is always tough. Yeah. Because who determines what's reasonable other than a court later on, but, you know, what's reasonable to you may not be reasonable to me or vice versa. Well, that's true. That's normally why you need some type of standards. set up. Well, but it's hard when you use the word reasonable. Some states have restrictions on bounty hunters such as background checks, formal training, bans on carrying firearms, license requirements, and identifying clothing. So it seems to me, Gibbs, as we kind of kind of sum up this whole bounty hunter thing, it's state by state, which a lot of things are, right? States can pass certain

things. It doesn't seem like it's set at the federal level, at least all of it. A decade earlier, there were calls to regulate bounty hunting when a 19-year-old bounty hunter shot a fugitive and was sentenced to six months in jail. The murders of Chris Foot and Spring Right eventually led to a new law in Arizona that requires bounty hunters to have licenses and have permission from occupants before entering a home. Not a bad thing. I don't think it is either. Now, when you talk about law enforcement, you know, there is something similar there, right?

Law enforcement cannot just for any reason walk inside your home or bust your door down. They just can't do it. Right. But there are certain scenarios where they can. Yeah. They feel like somebody's in harm, right? So let's talk about again the word reasonable. Yeah.

Reasonable suspicion. Definitely a term that will be challenged in these types of scenarios. Yeah. Because again, what is reasonable? So we mentioned that two of the bounty hunters were on the run. Brian J. Robbins and Ronald Eugene Thames were arrested on September 3rd, 1997. All of the bounty hunters were charged with second degree murder, aggravated assault, and unlawful in prison.

So this part of the story didn't take very long in real time, right? The murders occurred on August 31st. By September 3rd, all five of the bounty hunters had been arrested and charged. Now, two of them weren't too hard to find because they were in the hospital, but still, it's pretty good to get everybody arrested in charge within what, four days? Yeah, they're really good. The Phoenix police addressed a letter to the California bail company and identified the fugitive as Victor Rodriguez Alcantar. Alcantar skipped bail five years earlier for drunk driving. One of the bounty hunters was carrying paperwork showing they were hired by the company to capture Alcantar.

Another bond company gave the Arizona Republic a copy of the 1992 document with Alcantar's name on it. This guy was wanted on a bench warrant for. or a failure to appear in court. Linda Ombi, owner of Liberty Bailbonds and Phoenix, told the Arizona Republic that she dropped Michael Sanders as a bounty hunter three years earlier because he was, quote, too aggressive.

She said he'd yanked them around and throw them in the back of the car. Own B also said that David and Matthew Brackney were not hired at Liberty in June 1997 because they stormed in here, demanding jobs, dressed in black pants, combat boots, and black t-shirts. That sounds like what you wear every single day. I do. I'm always ready. This woman told the paper, I called them Tweedle D and Tweedled dumb. They represented what we didn't want. What I thought were cowboys and wannabes who took a three-day

$500 class and decided they could play. And I want to break that down because I do think this is a very you know, interesting statement. This is the owner of the company or a bail bond's company. She didn't like the looks of these guys or the way they were acting, the whole kind of package. Right. And Michael Sanders was too aggressive.

But it's this three day class that I want to focus in on because, you know, three days, pay $500 and you're a bounty hunter, right? when you think about it that way it's kind of alarming right it is a little bit especially after we just talked about kind of the latitude that they're given in many states now i don't want to this to come off negative against bounty hunters because that's not what i mean i'm just saying kind of echoing what linda said to the paper you know how many of these individuals kind of want to play cowboy or cops and robbers or whatever you want to call it, and they're not really fit for the job. Yeah, how do you filter out the ones that have a bad record and should definitely not be in that role?

Well, it came out that Michael Sanders was a convicted felon. He had also been a paid informer for law enforcement. One Phoenix detective acted as a character witness for Michael Sanders. In 1993, Sanders was accused of aggravated, assault for holding someone at gunpoint, but he wasn't prosecuted. Some believed that this was because he was an informant for the Maricopa County Attorney's Office. Sanders was implicated in the 1994 murder of an armored car driver. The criminals got away with $565,000. Wow. From this heist. Not small change. That has a lot of money. Sanders went to the police after he

became a suspect and admitted to planning the robbery but not participating. But two defendants argued that Sanders committed the robbery and that the Maricopa County Attorney's Office was protecting him. At one point, the Maricopa County Attorney's Office denied using Sanders as an informer. But on September 9th, 1997, they said that in 86 and 87, he was paid $20,000. Sanders quit working for prosecutors before the current prosecutor took office. So they said they didn't realize that he had been an informer. A spokesperson said that a document that stated he was an informer in 1990 was a typo. Additionally, in 1981, Sanders was fired from his job in a Texas sheriff's office after he planned an escape and the murder of two undercover agents. And apparently he was supposed to get

$10,000 for the escape. He'd only been working at the sheriff's office for about a month. When he was dismissed, he threatened the investigator working the case. All right. So we've got to take a minute and discuss Michael Sanders. We've already talked about this kind of scary notion that you have a person who, you know, wants to carry a gun, once excitement, adventure. And after taking a three day course, they're about a.

hunter. That's one thing. It is one thing. But now Michael Sanders was a convicted felon and was implicated in a number of other things. That takes the scary level up a notch, several notches. That's really alarming for me. And you're right. The scary notch definitely goes up. On February 25th, 1998, after the victim's family members testified before the House Judiciary Committee, Senate bill 1257 was endorsed unanimously. The bill would require bounty hunters to be fingerprinted, complete 16 hours of training, and eight hours annually for license renewal,

require the Department of Insurance to approve the training, require bail bond agents to register recovery agents and bounty hunters with the Department of Insurance, and would require bounty hunters to have a clean record for theft, weapon violations, and felonies, and get permission before entering an occupied home. All sounds like good things to me. Sure does. Now, you can make an argument about how much training is the right amount of training,

but at least all of this sounds like a move in a better direction. Yeah, I mean, I think the amount of time for training is low, but as a start. On August 19th in 1998, Ronald Eugene Timms, he pleaded guilty to two counts of second degree murder and one count of burglary, he agreed to testify against the other accomplices for a 10 to 22 year sentence with no early release. Well, I think he understood how bad it was going to be for him. Well, and the other thing that I was thinking about was something you talk about quite a bit. When you have multiple people, who often gets the best deal?

First one speaks. The first one that comes forward and says, yes, I'll testify against the others in exchange for X. And it wasn't like he was going to get off Scott free, right? 10 to 22 years with no early release. On September 15th of that year, Brian J. Robbins pleaded guilty to two counts of manslaughter and one count of burglary.

He also agreed to testify against Sanders and the Brachnese. He would receive between seven and 21 years in prison. Now, we mentioned it earlier. Brian Robbins was Michael Sanders' brother-in-law. According to the Arizona Republic, he struggled with his decision on the plea agreement and attempted to end his own life while in jail. Because he felt guilty for what he did? Didn't want to be in jail.

Or because he felt guilty for turning on Michael, his brother-in-law. Yeah. Or maybe a combination of all of it? Added it up. What transpired, the fact that he was. was going to jail, the fact that he had to, you know, turn on on his brother-in-law. Now, there was a man named Andy Hill, who also worked with the group to plan the break-in. He pleaded guilty to conspiracy. And then the trial of Michael Sanders opened on September

21st, 1998. Prosecutor William Clayton described the murders as a robbery gone back. The group was hoping to get $20,000 in drug. drug profits from the house, but the police didn't find a large amount of money or drugs in the home. Victor Alcantar's bond expired in 1993. But Michael Sanders used the expired paperwork as a cover for his operation to steal drugs and money from the home of Chris Foote. They didn't call the police to report what happened after the shooting. One of the defendants hid their bloody clothes and equipment.

then wash the truck. Okay. So now during the trial, a lot more information is coming out. We mentioned that the paperwork was expired. Which should be your first sign. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, you could make the argument that it's expired, but he's still going after this guy. Yeah. But the prosecutors are saying, no, it didn't have anything to do with Victor. He was using this as a cover to try to get a bunch of money from what he thought was a home with a lot of drugs and money in it. And it's pretty telling, right? When you don't call police to report a shooting, it's pretty telling when it comes out that bloody clothes, equipment are discarded.

Right. You know, you wash the truck to get rid of evidence. None of that screams, hey, we're bounty hunters and we thought we were entering this property. it turned out to be the wrong property. None of that. Instead, they try to hide it. Why? Well, according to the prosecution, it was because they were doing something illegal.

Yeah, and they knew it. Under the guise of being bounty hunters, Sanders' defense attorney, Carmen Fisher said that he fired in self-defense during a legitimate bounty hunting mission that went sour. According to Fisher, David Brackney, and Michael Sanders called out bail enforcement. They saw Chris Foote reach for his gun and foot fired first. Fisher called her client a professional in a legal business and said he was legally in the home.

Sanders had bail bond paperwork and photos of the fugitive who he believed was in the home. So now we go back to what? Reasonable Suspicion. Oh, there's that word reasonable. I have reasonable suspicion to believe that. this man was inside this home. David Brackney also contacted the police before the mission to let them know that it could be dangerous and that they were expected to find drugs in the home.

Now that's an interesting tidbit that comes out during the trial because all of the other stuff makes it sound like they knew this guy wasn't in there. And they were kind of going in, kind of using that as a root. but really going after money and or drugs. Now, this could have been a ruse as well. It probably was, right? Calling in saying, hey, this is what we're doing.

We're expecting to find drugs. And then it goes really, really bad. And after it does, you don't call the police. See, that's where it doesn't make sense to me. Or anybody is listening.

Yeah, I don't think anybody's going to be able to make sense of that. The group believed only one woman was in the home and they didn't know that Spring Wright was in the bedroom that night. They were wearing body armor because of the potential for danger. Because there was talk that the members of the Aryan Brotherhood were associated with the house and that large quantities of meth were sold inside the home, prosecutors argued that Sanders was the leader of the group.

Sanders and David Brackney were the ones who kicked down Chris Foote's door, which led to what they called a gun battle. in the bedroom. According to the Washington Post, Chris Foote had a 9mm handgun, while Michael Sanders had a 223 caliber AR-15 rifle. Michael Sanders fired 18 shots into the room,

which prosecutor said killed Chris Foote and probably killed Springwright. Probably 18 rounds. Of 223. Yeah. Now, a 9-millimeter handgun is very, it's powerful, it's deadly. But you don't really want to be in a gun fight with a 9mm

when the person on the other side has a 2-2-3. Exactly. And they're wearing body armor. Obviously, these two are not wearing body armor. Number one, they're sleeping. They're in bed. And number two, they, they're not planning anything. They didn't know anything was going down.

Well, yeah. I mean, you know, jumped out of bed, startled, lucky to grab your gun. that's what you have to defend yourself. But like you said earlier, how good is your aim? How good is your quickness on the trigger? You know, you can be half asleep. Well, and especially in the face of this hail of high caliber rifle, bullets, you know, coming at you, hitting you, that's going to be, it's a tough situation for anyone. Ronald Thames testified as part of his plea deal that they plan to break into Chris Foote's.

it's home because they mistakenly believed they would find a large amount of drugs and cash. So that backed up the prosecution's theory, right? That this wasn't really a bounty hunter mission. They weren't going after this Victor Al-Cantar. They were going after drugs and money. They just were wrong about what would be inside the home. Now, I always like to analyze the testimony of someone who has taken a plea deal, right? I'm not saying it's always wrong, but is there an incentive for this person to go along the lines with the prosecution? Could be. Well, I would say normally there is because you wanted the plea deal, so you want the benefits of it, right? The reduced sentence, the reduced charge, whatever it is. That doesn't necessarily

mean you can't tell the truth and be right, you know, at the same time. On October 30th, 1998, Michael Sanders was convicted of first degree felony murder for the deaths of Chris Foote and Springwright and nine other charges, including burglary, aggravated assault, and unlawful imprisonment. It's a bunch of charges, but good charges. Yeah, you know, the one thing that I was kind of thinking of was, what if they were, really did think Victor was in this house. I don't believe that's the way it went down. I'm just saying, what if they really did think? Wouldn't they still get in trouble for barging in and shooting two people?

Yes, they would. Now, would it be first degree? Maybe not. Maybe it would be a lesser second degree manslaughter. I don't know. But you're not going unscath. My thought is it was the, they're not even really looking for this guy, they were trying to rob this home of drugs and cash that leads to a first degree felony murder, charge, and conviction. Sensing was set for January 29th, 1998. Prosecutors wanted to pursue the death penalty. The sentencing was postponed for a hearing on Michael Sanders' request for a new trial on March 8th, 1999. Maricopa County Prosecure asked Judge Gregory Martin to determine if Carmen Fisher should remain Sanders' defense attorney due to conflict of interest caused by what they termed as their personal relationship.

So apparently it came out that Carmen Fisher came to the jail and the weekends and sometimes spent up to five hours with Sanders. Okay. Is there anything wrong with that? Not on the surface. Right. You could say, this is just a. a really good attorney trying to spend as much time, you know, with their client as possible. Trying to help them out. The problem is it also came out that they went to the most secluded room in the visitation area and were sometimes asked to move to the center. So officers could watch Sanders. Several officers snuck up on them and caught them in a compromising position.

Basically, the two were having a sexual affair in the visitation rooms of the jail. And I don't even know how that happens. I thought normally the visitation room was just one big room. Yeah, it typically is. But they're saying there was a secluded room. Might have been like a... Or multiple rooms. Like a attorney office or county or...

You're right. Maybe it was used for, you know, sex with your husband or wife. Oh, you're going to say conjugal visits? Yeah. You mean a room right off of the visitation room? Yes. would be where they would have conjugal visits here i don't know everybody can hear i don't know that you get conjugal visits in jail i don't know i think you're more on the right track with the special

room because of the attorney privilege client privilege yeah you don't expect your attorney to go all rumpus room with their client in the visitation area you don't of the jail and i'll never understand that. Gibbs, you know, here's a woman who, you know, had a great job. Why would you risk all of that to have sex with a guy who's about ready to go to prison for a very long time? Probably because love. I mean, is he George Clooney? To her, maybe he was. I don't know. But I always find it interesting what people are willing to risk. But the main thing was that prosecutors were concerned that Sanders may use the relationship. for an appeal or even to ask for a retrial.

Prosecutors told the judge that they wanted the affair on the record with Sanders fully aware of his rights. Matthew Silverman of the Arizona State Bar Association told the Arizona Republic that there is no ethical rule prohibiting an attorney from having an affair with a client. But if a complaint was filed with the bar, it could be investigated and the attorney could be disciplined. I didn't understand that at all. First of all, I would just have assumed there was a rule.

I said, no. Yeah. No coitus. Yeah. With your client. But then, so if you have no rule, then why would the attorney be disciplined? I didn't understand that. If there's no rule against it, then where does the discipline come from?

Now, maybe it was because it was in the interrogation room of the jail. I don't know. Yeah. The following information comes from statutes, codes, and regulations, Arizona court rules and Arizona rules of professional conduct, client lawyer relationship, rule 1.8, conflict of interest, current clients, specific rules amended through December 8th, 2022. A lawyer shall not have sexual relation with a client unless a consensual sexual relationship existed between them when the client lawyer relationship commenced.

So obviously this is very, very recent. Right. We don't know what the rule was back then. It must have been changed because this guy from the Bar Association is saying there is no rule back in the day. Obviously there is one nap. I think it's kind of bizarre though, right, that you have to actually have a law rule in place. No, that's the whole problem.

If you don't have it in place, then somebody's going to do it. They're going to do what they know they shouldn't be doing. Because you have no rule against it. But apparently, if you had a sexual relationship at the time you became the person's attorney, you can still go through with it. Okay. That's what I'm reading. It's grandfathered in, basically. It's your grandfathered then?

Yeah. At the hearing on March 8th, Officer Stephen Roth testified that Carmen Fisher may have tried to smuggle contraband into the jail. Roth testified that he once ran Fisher's jacket through the x-ray scanner, and it showed a metal item that looked like a bullet inside a container. Before he asked her to empty the pockets, she took the jacket, put it in a locker used by attorneys for their visits. So she may have had something suspect in this jacket. I kind of thought maybe, you know, it would go a different way.

And she was hiding it somewhere else. Yeah. in places that we've we've talked about before the arizona republic reported that several detention officers caught sanders and fisher kissing touching and engaging in sexual contact and when caught the two would break away sharply and act as if nothing happened so this all came out of testimony and court records i think some of that might be hard just to break away from act like nothing's happening though well depending on what what's going on. Yeah. A jail shift commander recommended in a memo that Fisher be banned from visitation

for disregarding jail policy and direct orders from the staff to stop engaging in this behavior. So apparently the court heard three days of testimony. Wow. On this whole thing. Yeah. Must have been a lot of inappropriate. Uh, touching and, yeah, things going on. But the hearing was paused until March 26th. So the judge could go on vacation. You know, judges got to go on vacation too. Oh, absolutely. Carmen Fisher admitted to having what she called a personal relationship with Michael Sanders, but refused to explain further.

Now, she is an attorney. So she probably knows how to choose her words wisely. She doesn't seem to understand how to keep her hands off of a convicted felon. But other than that, some of the other attorney's things you think would still kick in. Well, that touching your client is a big one, man. It's going to override any good thing that she does. I think you can touch clients. I don't think you can engage in sexual conduct.

Yeah. Let's just, I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing. Oh, yeah. You know, I don't know what you can do in this day and age, but, you know, if you put your hand on somebody's shoulder or you're consoling them or whatever, that's a lot different than acting like you're in the backseat of your dad's Ford on a Saturday night. Hey, my dad never had a Ford. Backseat of your dad's horse and buggy on a Saturday night.

Back in the day. On March 26, 1999, Carmen Fisher was removed from Sanders case. An attorney Jim Logan was appointed as lead counsel. The Arizona Bar also announced their investigation into Carmen's conduct. But on April 27, 1999, Judge Martin ruled that Carmen Fisher could continue to represent Michael Sanders. And basically what happened was Fisher, you know, started off as his public defender. But Sanders, family and friends decided that they wanted to hire her privately.

And so did he. He wanted her. Yeah. Well, obviously he wanted her in a number of different capacities. Sanders told the judge he was waiving any potential legal conflicts and wanted Fisher as his lawyer. The judge said that although the relationship wasn't illegal, it had potential to create conflict of interest that could hurt Sanders case or be used as grounds for a new trial. The two were barred by court order from physical contact.

Fisher was barred from visiting inmates and had to communicate with clients by mail or phone while she was being investigated. On July 2nd, 1999, the Arizona Bar Association filed charges against Fisher, alleging that she violated the Supreme Court's conflict of interest rule. She had until the 29th of July to file a response, the state bar of Arizona later cleared her of ethical violations on June 7, 2000. So, I mean, this is kind of like a roller coaster. there's no rule, but you did something wrong.

No, you didn't do something wrong. Yeah. But you violated this. And then the state bar finally cleared you of everything. It seemed very strange to me. You're like, so I didn't do anything wrong then because I've been cleared. Well, the Supreme Court said you did. Said you violated the conflict of interest rule.

But I think what came out of this other than kind of an interesting part of the case was that, you know, the victim's families were so angry. that this issue caused the delay in the case. And it really took attention away from the most important people who were christened spring. That's true. So it's a, that's a fair statement. Because you know the papers weren't reporting on them. All the reporting is going to be on Michael Sanders is having,

you know, sexual relations with his attorney and, you know, here's what was decided. And, you know, a bunch of time goes by. I could see why the families would be really hot over that.

Melody Mueller told the Arizona Republic, it just stinks that we have to go through this garbage. At this point, they can have each other. I just want the legal process to go on. Christmas Springs seemed to get lost in the shuffle. They were two human beings. That's what gets me so angry. Everything is turned into a joke.

On August 25, 1999, Michael Sanders was sentenced to two life sentences, without the possibility of parole. He was also sentenced in 99 years for 11 other convictions. So if he's somehow able to make it through those two life sentences, the 99 years is going to kick in. Judge Gregory Martin ruled that several circumstances did not allow for the death penalty. The shooting was not planned beforehand.

And Chris Foote shot at the group first. And I get that. I completely understand that. You know, you and I talk about the death penalty a lot. We also talk about the fact that a lot of people are for it, a lot of people are against it. Oh, yeah. It's a very divisive issue. I understand there can be mitigating circumstances that, you know, would make a judge say,

no, I don't, I don't think the death penalty should be in play here. They didn't go in with the forethought of, we're going to shoot these two people. And I think that's, that's a big thing. Doesn't make what they did right. No. But does it change the circumstances? Yeah. I think it does.

Now, the fact that Chris Foote shot at the group first, okay, I understand what he's saying, but you also broke into his house. He was just defending himself and kicked in his door. But again, it doesn't have anything to do with the right or the wrong of it. It's the death penalty versus life sentence. And I'm, I'm, I'm totally fine with that. Yeah.

Sanders said that he was haunted by Springwright's death, but he blamed Chris foot for shooting first. The Arizona Republic reported that Sanders said, I told Chris several times to show me his hands and put the gun down. Sanders said he dropped to the floor when Chris shot at him. I was flat on my back. And then and only then did I return fire. He also said that he didn't know Spring Wright was killed until he was.

at the hospital. When a nurse said two people were killed in a shooting, he said it felt like a punch in the gut. I was absolutely devastated. I'm brokenhearted over Spring's death. To openly show my sorrow is undignified. It's not the way I was raised. What do you think of this? I'm struggling with it a little bit. Meaning the, to believe it? I'm struggling with a couple of things. Actually, first of all, he says he's haunted by the death of Spring Wright. Says, nothing about Chris foot, right? Yeah. But he blames Chris. Sure. For the whole incident. But my thing is, Chris foot would have never shot his gun had you not busted in, broken into his house and kicked his door down. Yeah. I mean, it was just a kickoff that led to all

the events that transpired. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if they don't enter the home, then everybody wakes up the next morning and goes on about their day as is normal. Yeah. I don't know how you, can say that's not true. David Brackney went to trial in 2000. His trial lasted a month. According to the Phoenix New Times, during a recess in the final week of his trial, David Brackney told his friends and family in the gallery, it looks like I'll be bringing cookies to church soon. Okay. I mean, I can only take from that that he thought he was, he was going to be set free. I don't know how else you're going to bring cookies to church unless you're free man. Yeah, I don't either. The prosecution argued that David Brackney

knowingly took part in the phony bounty hunting operation, which led to the deaths of Chris Foot and Springwright. Brackney was a security specialist and law enforcement employee. The defense portrayed him as a conscientious law-abiding citizen. According to the Phoenix New Times, Brackney's attorneys emphasized that he didn't know. Sanders' true intentions. And he thought it was a legitimate bounty hunting mission. Well, with this guy being a security specialist

and in law enforcement, I just would expect that he would do a little bit more homework. Yeah, I get that. Now, you could make the argument and his defense team maybe did that Michael Sanders showed him the paperwork. He didn't know it was expired.

He thought it was real, you know, on and on and on. but you can see where his defense team is going with this, and it's a pretty good route. It is. You can't hold him responsible because he just thought he was doing a legal job. They presented character witnesses who testified that Brackney would never participate in a burglary. One of the witnesses was a police officer who testified that Brackney warned him days before the shooting about a bounty hunting mission. involved in. The defense argued that he wouldn't talk to the police about it if he was planning

to commit crimes. Right. I see that line of thought as well. Yeah. Why would you tell your police buddies that you're going on this mission if you have an idea that it's, it's a robbery of drugs and money? Ronald Tims, though, testified that Brackney did know the truth and that everyone involved looked at the expired paperwork. He did say that Brackney didn't want any drugs, only money, and that himself and Sanders had a side deal to take the drugs. So we've got conflicting testimony. And you can make the argument.

And I normally do that each side has something in it for them to say what they're saying. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Obviously Brackney does because he's on, you know, trial for his first. freedom. You can make the argument that Tim's does because he wants that plea deal. He does. So again, I always think that the jury's kind of in a very tough position. You're hearing one person say one thing. The other person or side is saying the complete opposite. It's up to them, right? To wade through all the BS and figure out who's telling the truth and who's not.

Yeah, that's true. On February 8, 2000, David Brackney, was found guilty of first-degree murder and other felonies, including aggravated assault, burglary, and unlawful imprisonment. After the trial, Brackney's defense attorney James Lagatuta told the Phoenix New Times that

Ronald Thames lacked credibility, and Brackney had no history of criminal behavior. Well, the jury saw differently. They did. They did. On March 27, 2000, David Brackney was sentenced to two consecutive. executive life terms without parole plus 90 years for the additional charges. So he essentially got the exact same thing as Michael Sanders. Yeah, he's not going anywhere. The Arizona Daily Times reported

that before sentencing. Brackney said he was sorry. He said, if I could turn back the clock and go back, I would, but I am ready to pay the penalty for what happened. So I do think you could read that a couple of different ways. Number one, maybe it's a little bit of an admission. Yeah. Or on the other hand, he's just saying, I'm sorry that it happened the way it did, meaning I still thought it was a legal bounty hunting expedition

and things went badly. And there's nothing I can do about it now. Yeah. So I don't know. On May 11, 2000, the final defendant, Matthew Brackney pleaded guilty to aggravated assault and burglary, he admitted that he was one of the men who broke into the home with the intention to steal drugs and money. On October 13th of that year, Matthew was sentenced to 10 years

in prison. So no doubt, he got, you know, a much lighter sentence. Now, he wasn't thought to have been, you know, one of the individuals who shot and killed either of the two parties, but you can't tell me that taking the plea deal didn't didn't give him a pretty hefty reduction. Oh, we can tell that, right? We know that. It's interesting, though, I mean, because he's saying he knew the intention was to do this. When Tim said that too. Yeah. So does that sway the jury

when you have two different people? Well, especially when you got Matthew saying one thing, and David's saying the opposite, you know, the exact opposite. It's You think they would have been communicating with each other? Yeah, you would think being family, they would have talked. They would have discussed it. But again, you know, tough for the jury to wade through, you know, all these different statements, different sides. The one thing that this case did, though, for sure, is that it brought widespread attention to issues in the bounty hunting industry.

It also led to conversations about the dangers of balance. hunting operations and how bounty hunters should conduct themselves when looking for fugitives. And you and I talked about it earlier. You know, go back to that one person saying three-day class and $500 and you're a bounty hunter. Yeah. You know, get you a gun and go down, go out hunting for people. It's a little bit of a scary proposition. I think it is.

I think there should be a lot more training involved. Well, and I think there is now. Yeah. Right. You know, over the years, it sounds like things have been put in place. And that's what we see in all these different cases. It takes something that goes horribly wrong for people to realize that we don't have the right safeguards in place.

Yeah. You know, look at the banking collapse, 2007, 2008, whatever it was. I mean, look at all the regulations that were put in after that. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. And you're still living them. Still living through them. Yeah.

And you can point to so many different tragedies or this or that. Unfortunately, most often it's not until after something happens that people realize that, well, if we'd only had this, right. Or if we would have required people to do this, this, and this. It would have lessened the chance for this to happen. It's just kind of the way it is, unfortunately. You normally need some type of correction. Sometimes you overcorrect.

Overcorrect, you know. And we see that all the time. We do. According to the Arizona Department of Corrections, Rehabilitation and Reentry, inmate Data Search page. Michael Sanders and David Brackney are still in prison serving their life sentences. Brian Robbins projected release date isn't until June 2020. Matthew Brackney was granted supervised release in 2006.

And Ronald Thames was released in 2015. So I don't think it's any surprise that the two individuals who took the plea deals and were thought to not have been as involved, at least in the actual killings, or already out. Now, it's to be seen when or if Sanders and David Brackney ever get out. I don't know that they ever will. You know, two life sentences consecutive. So that means you come up for parole. you still got to do the other one, right? Yeah. And you got to do the parole time at least for that.

And then you got the 90 years after that. I just, I don't see it. I just thought this was a very different case. You know, you've got these people who you, I mean, you would say some of them were bounty hunters, but were they acting in a bounty hunter capacity? And the prosecution said, no, this was straight up. you know, we're going after drugs and money. Yeah. There's no reasonable suspicion that this guy is here. And it doesn't matter anyway because the paperwork on him's expired. Exactly.

So what are we doing? When you kind of look at it all that way, it does make sense how the jury kind of came to the conclusions that they did because it just doesn't seem to line up with the, hey, we really thought this guy was in here. So we busted down the door, but things went bad. Yeah, yeah. It just, you know, it just doesn't, it doesn't add up. And you have two people of the group saying, everybody knew everything.

Exactly. It was a sham. We were only there for drugs and money. What's unfortunate, obviously, is that two people lost their lives, two young people, fairly young. Yeah, it's true. And then, you know, you had the woman and her kids, they probably traumatized. for life for life i's yeah and um for what i don't know but i'm sure there are people out there that

do not believe that this was a a drug money deal and that they really thought this guy was in i'm sure there are people that believe that we have that in every case we do we do i mean the final reason to side with that but that's okay we know what the jury decided so that's one thing and then you know you and I can look at the evidence that we know of. We don't have all of it. We don't. But all the signs kind of seem to point to me at least to that story just doesn't add up. No.

And I think that's what the jury thought to. Yeah, I think the jury smelt that one out as well. Yeah. Did you say smelt? I did. Okay. Like smelt metal? Like you smelt some.

He smelt it. Oh, you smelt it. Yeah. Is that go along the lines of he who smelt it dealt it? Exactly. Okay. Is that where that comes from? Yeah.

All right. I got you. But that's it for our case on Michael Sanders. We've got some voicemails, Gibbs. You want to check those out? Yeah, let's hear them. Hey, Gibb. Hey, Berg.

Sorry, I'm driving on my way to my work site. I got in about an hour drive today. I'm going to be listening to you guys the whole time. It's Minnesota, my lane. I've only called once, but I've been listening to you guys for probably three or four years. I just started your newest episode on

solved and you guys are talking about how he had so many siblings there were six boys or something like that and eating them out of house and home and i can confirm that that is true i have six sisters and one brother all from the same parents and um my mom raised us by herself from me from my age of eight to probably 14 or 15 and we had two deep freezers one for veggies one for meat and then two regular refrigerators, one in the basement for the six gallons of milk and the ten cartons of eggs that we would keep in there and then are just our regular fridge upstairs. But our grocery bills would oftentimes once a week be well over $300, and that's with state

assistance and all that. Love the show. Love you guys so much. I kind of have the biggest crush on Gibby and his voice. Don't tell my boyfriend, but Gibby, if you're ever single again, let me know. I'll move to Ohio for you. Love you guys.

Stay safe and keep your own time picking. Oh, just one of many of Gibby's fans. So I'm assuming her boyfriend does not listen to the show. I'm guessing not. And because she did give her first name. But yeah, we talk about that. anytime somebody's got a really large family. Oh, yeah.

I think now especially, when you go to the grocery store and you see how much eggs are and pretty much everything. Everything's expensive. I wonder if people, I think people are already having less children, I assume, over the last 10, 20, 30 years. I wonder if what we've gone through over the last few years is even going to push that down a little, just because everything's so freaking expensive. I wait till they put it in that little bin in the middle of the aisle.

Like the free bin? Last day. The sample bin? Oh, I thought you meant the one where you stick your hand in and grab like a handful of peanuts or cashews. And it's not really free. Well, but you think it is. Yeah, do that too. Yeah.

It's like when you walk around on sample day at Sam's and Costco. Oh, sample day. You can almost get a full meal. That's right. That's a whole day right there, free. Now, you bring three or four costume changes, so you get a couple of meals in. Hi, Mike and Gibby. My name is Susan, and I'm from mid-Missouri.

I am really enjoying your podcast. I wanted to give you a call and tell you so. I had a job change last May from being a public school teacher to now being a full-time goat farmer. And listening to your podcast makes my chores go quicker. I wanted to tell you, though, that I do have to be careful if I run into 10. and I'm really zoned in on an episode, and I'm playing it in my earpiece. I had to be careful about the reactions,

the gas, the laughter that I have out loud. I've gotten some funny looks in Dollar General recently. But I love what you're doing and keep your own time chicken. Man, I want to come out and hang out the farm with some goats. Yeah. I like goats, actually. Yeah. Some of them can get mean, though.

I know you like goats. I always think that, you know, kind of those sudden reactions, the laughs, the gasps, it keeps people on their toes. It does. Kind of like, okay, don't mess with me because you don't know what this person's going through. I do random growls through the day. It scares people off of them. Keeps you safe.

Hey, Mike and Gabby, Michigan. I was listening to your podcast on Nathan Miles, the Pantera. fan. I am a huge fan, Tara fan, and Dynbag Darrell was one of my favorite stars. And like, blew me away. Let you guys know that. Keep yourself safe and keep your own time check it. All right.

Appreciate the voicemail. Yeah, we got a lot of feedback on that episode. A lot of Pantera fans, and especially a lot of Dyingbag Daryl fans, of course, Rodin. That's it for the voicemails. We had one thing in the mailbag. Yeah. Mara Ellison sent us in some Harley chips, but she also sent some of the Harley dice too. Awesome.

Yeah. So very, very cool. We appreciate it very much. But that's it for another episode of True Crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.