True Crime All The Time - Michelle Carter

Episode Date: November 20, 2023

18-year-old Conrad Roy ended his life on July 12th, 2014. The police discovered text messages on his phone from a girl named Michelle Carter, who said she was his boyfriend. In these messages, Michelle encouraged Conrad to end his life and even helped him plan it. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Michelle Carter, who was 17 when Conrad died. After she was charged, the case garnered worldwide attention and continues to be widely discussed today. This case raises questions about criminal responsibility and to what extent Michelle should have been held accountable for her actions. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 359 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson, how are you? Hey man, I'm doing well about you. I'm doing very well. That's good.

I think you and I talked on Patreon about both of us just having a good week, busy but good. Yes, exactly right. And those are good weeks. It is good. You know, you want to be busy. You want to contribute. You don't want to be lazy.

But you want the week to go well as, I mean, I'm okay being lazy. Well, I am too. Maybe, yeah, maybe I'm not telling the entire truth. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout-outs. We had Tanny Zamora. Hey, Zamora. Christy Russell.

Hey, Christy. Ali Aiden. What's going on, Ali? Cheeky Beepie. Oh, hey, beepie. Cheryl Bamante. What's going on, Bamante? Andrea Adendi.

Ooh, Adente. Julie Gifford. What's going on, Julie? Adam Torini jumped out at our highest level. Awesome, Adam. Appreciate that. Ryan Dillow. Hey, Ryan.

Alexandria Carolla. Ah, Corolla. Michelle Hammond. What's going on, Michelle? BCS Phil. Well, thank you so much, BCS. Jasmine Judge. What's up, JJ?

And last but not least, Juan Mesa Rodriguez Jr. Well, that's awesome, Juan. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for the new support. And then if we go back into the vault, this week, we selected Karen Washington. Well, thank you so much, Karen. Yeah, for Patreon.

Thanks for the new support to continue support. We also had a great PayPal donation from Ann Kelly. Yeah, we did. Thanks, Ann. So thank you to everyone. Gibbs, we have an episode out right now on True Crime All the Time on Salt, where we're talking about five-year-old Lucas Hernandez, who disappeared from his home in Wichita, Kansas in 2018.

And this is a very interesting episode because you have, someone, basically his father's living girlfriend, who's a major person of interest from the very start. Absolutely. And we'll follow that through the episode and kind of walk you through what the police are seeing. Yeah. But it's very strange. I just don't want to give it away. Exactly. Right. Buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am ready. We're talking about Michelle Carter. And a lot of people are probably. Are you somewhat familiar with this case. There have been documentaries. I think my wife and I watched one on Netflix about it. 18 year old Conrad Roy ended his life on July 12th, 2014. The police discovered text

messages on his phone from a girl named Michelle Carter who said she was his boyfriend. In these messages, Michelle encouraged Conrad to end his life and even helped him plan it. She was convinced of involuntary manslaughter. And this is really a case that has raised a lot of questions about criminal responsibility and to what extent Michelle should have been held accountable for her action. It's a very popular case. Yeah, with people online. I mean,

you talk about a case that you can debate. Yeah. This is certainly one of those cases. I think there's people on both sides, right? Absolutely. which you find quite often, but there are some cases more so than others that are really, really debatable about, you know, what should have happened, what the charges should have been, what the sentence should have been. Conrad Henry Roy the 3rd was born on September 12th,

1995. Conrad lived in both Fairhaven and Matapoic, Massachusetts, according to the Sun Chronicle. He was the oldest of three children. His parents separated when he was 16, which was difficult for him to cope with. Conrad had a history of struggling with depression and had been prescribed antidepressants before. Well, you know, divorce is tough on kids. It is. It is. It can be very tough. Do you think that kids have a lot more to deal with now than they did when you and I, were, you know, let's say 16, 17, 18 years old.

Absolutely they do. Yeah, I think so as well. You know, the introduction of social media. Yeah. Let's throw COVID in there. I mean, there have been some things that you and I didn't have to deal with. And so when things that we did have to deal with, let's say divorce or separation or something like that came along.

Yeah. It was still difficult. Of course. But I think kids are dealing with a lot more these days. I think there's a lot more responsibility at school. I think social media is really impacting, you know, the way kids feel like they need to appear. You know, the appearance. Right.

I think you add all that stuff in and just, you know, there's other things. You can layer on top of that. And I think it's rough to be a kid. I think it is. I think it is. He told a friend named Ariana Taylor that he felt, like there was a darkness inside him. And there were times when he wanted to isolate himself. Now, I'm sure a lot of kids feel like that. I mean, my youngest was, was someone is still someone who likes

to be alone at times. Yeah. Now, I don't think it's because she has a darkness inside or I think it's because she takes after me and I like to be alone. You do for periods of time. Conrad first attempted to end his life in 2012. When he was 17 years old, he tried to overdose on acetaminopin. After he left a treatment program for depression. Conrad contacted his friend Ariana and said he was sick. His mother had just laughed and he wanted her to come back. She immediately called Conrad's parents and they took him to the hospital.

Conrad's mother, Lynn St. Dennis, told CBS that Conrad told her, mom i will never do that again well he probably met that i'm i'm sure he did i just want to kind of talk a for a minute about you know what a difficult thing this is for the parents as well because you obviously can tell that your your son is struggling right with depression mental health thoughts about ending his life what do you do what can you do and i think the answer is there's only much. Try to get him help, but you can't control everything. I think that's what can be frustrating. But you probably also feel like a not a good parent. A failure. A failure. Yeah. When you may have had no part in it whatsoever. You may not have done anything wrong, but those feelings could still be there.

Yeah. And then on top of that, feeling of being hopeless. Yes. Arianna told CBS that she thought Conrad was calling out for help and that he didn't actually mean what he was doing, but he really needed help and that this was the only way. He kind of thought that he would really get help. By 2014, he seemed to be doing better. He was a senior in high school and had been accepted at Fitchburg State University. He planned to study business. He had also recently earned his sea captain's license and eventually wanted to take over his family's marine towing and salvage business. business. Ariana Taylor also said that Conrad started going to parties and spending more time with

people. A sea captain. Now, we are talking about Massachusetts here. Yeah. You know, here in Ohio, not going to be a lot of call for sea captains. But I have my license. I know you have your license and I still don't understand why, but. Just in case.

If something arises, I think it's because you wanted to be able to marry people. I forget why you went and got it. But it's a cool. conversation opener. Hey, I just open my wallet, which I hardly ever do. But when I do, that C-Captain license flings out. And I'm like, yeah, I'm a C-Captain. But I think what I take away from this is that the people around Conrad thought, okay, things are going well for him. He got accepted to, you know, a college. He has plans, obviously, because he went out and got this C-Captain's license. He wants to take over the family business, but also he's being more outgoing. He's attending parties.

So it seems like he's back on track. Yes. Yeah. However, he still struggled with his mental health. But we know that we've heard about this, right? That what someone looks like on the outside is not always the case going on the inside, right? Oh, that's absolutely true. You can never 100% know what's going on in somebody's head. Yeah. You only know what they're allowing you to see. Now, you can maybe divine some things, uh, read between the lines type of stuff, but can you ever really know.

Lynn told CBS that Conrad wanted to excel in life and that he was very hard on himself. He felt like he was disappointing his parents. I think it's worse when you feel like you're disappointing. your parents versus yourself. Yeah, I would agree with that. And I would also say, I think there are a lot of kids who are extremely hard on themselves way harder than they should be because they think things are a certain way when in fact they're really not, if that makes sense. They're not as bad or they're not, the gravity is not what it really is the way they think it is. Since 2012, Conrad had regularly been texting Michelle Carter, a 17-year-old girl from Plainville, Massachusetts.

She lived about two hours away from him. Michelle and Conrad met while their families were on separate vacations in Florida. Michelle is the granddaughter of a family friend. So that's kind of interesting, right? They meet in Florida. They're both from Massachusetts, but meet while their families are on separate vacation. Kind of strange. Yeah.

Interesting. They mostly communicated through calls, emails, and texts. According to oxygen, they had only met in person five times. Conrad's parents didn't know Michelle well. Lynn said she met her once at Conrad's baseball game. In general, Michelle was considered to be a good kid. Her softball coach told CBS that she was an ideal teammate. She was also voted class clown and most likely to brighten your day. I didn't even know. I didn't even know. know they still did that type of stuff. Class clown. Remember when we were young, they used to do like best looking. Oh yeah.

There's no way they do that stuff today. Best looking. Most likely to succeed. They might still do that, I guess. But I even doubt that just because, well, now you're excluding someone, you know. But there's certainly not doing best looking, biggest flirt. Best athlete. They might do that.

I don't know. there are some of that stuff that there is no way they're still doing today. No, no, I don't think so. Like Conrad, Michelle also struggled with her mental health. About three months before Conrad died, she was prescribed an antidepressant. She also talked to her friends about having an eating disorder. In the summer of 2012, Conrad's depression worsened. He started spending a lot of time at home.

his father Conrad Roy Jr. told people that he didn't want to go to work saying that his son was always struggling and depressed, but he got through it and he didn't complain too much about it. He later told a detective that Conrad suffered from severe anxiety and they had a hard time getting him to go to school. Conrad had also canceled his plan move to Fitchburg. Well, that's kind of big news, right, that he decides not to move to Fitchburg. I think it is. I think it really gives you a sense of what he's going through or the level of depression, the level of anxiety that he's experiencing that he makes this big decision that he doesn't, he doesn't even want to go to school. On July 12th, 2014, Conrad spent the day at the beach in Westport, Massachusetts with his mom and two sisters. He seemed happy and was telling jokes and

talking about his future. But at this very same time, he was texting Michelle Carter about ending his life. So how often do we talk about the difference between what a person is feeling inside and what they're showing to those around them? I think this is a perfect example of that. Yeah. He obviously was going through a lot of internal strife. But he's also spending the day with his mom and and acting like everything is okay. Conrad Roy died of suicide on July 12, 2014. His body was found the next day. In his truck in a Kmart parking lot in Fairhaven, he ended his life by breathing carbon monoxide fumes from a portable generator. And this must be, you know, agony for parents. I can only imagine how tough that would be. You had to get that call.

Or that knock on the door? No. Conrad's parents told the police about his history of depression and his previous suicide attempt. Per normal procedure, the police took his phone to go through his texts and calls. And the investigation really shifted when they discovered over 1,000 texts between Conrad and Michelle Carter in the week before his death. That's a lot of text messages. It is for you and I. Is it for two young people who are in a relationship, but they live two hours away?

I don't know. Maybe not. Not for a week, right? Yeah. I think some of these, you know, younger people text at a volume that you and I would think is over the top. Yeah. But it's just normal for them. Because, you know, the one thing that they don't do as often is actually dial up a number.

Oh, and actually talk. Yeah, like you and I would do. Michelle referred to Conrad as her boyfriend. And in many of the texts, Michelle encouraged Conrad to end his life. And no doubt, right? This is going to be the crux of this entire case. These text messages encouraging him to end his life. Yeah, that's a problem.

The police asked Conrad's family if he had a girlfriend and they said no. Conrad's friends were also. confused by Michelle's claim that she was his girlfriend. I think there's times when a guy or, or, you know, girl won't tell their friends and family that they have a girlfriend or a boyfriend. I don't think that's too strange. No, I think you're right about that,

especially when it's, it's kind of a long distance relationship. They're not seeing each other in person very often at all. But then you have to look at the other scenario and that's that they weren't really boyfriend and girlfriend. And so that's why he wasn't telling anyone because he didn't feel as though they were. His parents knew who Michelle was, but like I said, they didn't know much about her. Conrad told his father that Michelle was going through a hard time because of her eating disorder. So he wasn't hiding Michelle from his parents.

they had met her at least one time, the question was really, were they boyfriend and girlfriend? And there can be a fine line. Sure, there could be. Is it possible for one person in a relationship to think we're together in that way and the other person to think, no, we're really just friends? And maybe they hadn't talked about it? Absolutely. It's absolutely possible.

The following is a timeline, some of the text between Michelle Carter, and Conrad Roy leading up to his death, according to CNN, on June 19, 2014, Michelle texted Conrad that if he went to a mental hospital, they could help him. She then texted him, part of me wants you to try something and fail just so you can go get help. A little harsh. Well, yeah, I guess it depends on how you take it. The try something and fail. if she is talking about suicide.

And I think many people will view it that way, then it is very harsh. The first part, you know, get some mental help. I don't see anything wrong with that. No. On June 23rd, Conrad texted that hurting himself would make the pain go away. Michelle responded that it would make the pain go away temporarily, but he would regret it and feel worse. I think that's a fair statement.

Yeah. I don't disagree with that at all. On July 7th, Conrad asked Michelle what she would do. If she were in his position, she said she would go and get help. And really so far, outside of the try something and fail comment, depending on what the true meaning of that is, it does sound as though she's trying to help him. and at the very least she would like to see him go seek some mental health help. Yeah. But later that day, they talked about the best ways to produce more carbon monoxide.

Michelle helped Conrad make a plan to die from carbon monoxide poisoning and told him, is quoted by people, you lose consciousness with no pain. You just fall asleep and die. on July 11th, the two debated if Conrad should use a generator or a water pump to produce carbon monoxide. Michelle taxed it according to oxygen. Well, in my opinion, I think you should do the generator because I don't know much about the pump. And with a generator, you can't fail. So I think in these last series of texts, you see that she's kind of gone far away from, hey, I think you should go get some mental help to starting to really talk about helping him end his life.

I think it crosses the line. I mean, when you go from discouraging to encouraging. And not only encouraging, but helping to plan it out. Yeah. Researching. I think it's a problem. The following are a series of texts from Michelle from July 4th. to July 12th, which were published by CNN. You're going to have to prove me wrong because I just don't think you really want this. You just keep pushing it off to another night and say you'll do it, but you never do. See, that's what I mean.

You keep pushing it off. You just said you were going to do it tonight and now you're saying eventually. But I bet you're going to be like, oh, I didn't work. It didn't work because I didn't tape the tube ride or something like that. I bet you're going to say an excuse like that. You better not be bullshitting me in saying you're going to do this and then purposefully get caught. Wow. Yeah.

I mean, these are shocking when you look at, okay, we've gone from her saying you should get some help with your mental health. Right. To really planning the end of his life to now kind of calling him out because he hasn't done it. Kind of like a bully. Yeah. What are you waiting on? Do it. You know, don't just say you're going to do it.

Either do it or say you're not going to do it. Move on. And it's really like, I'm mad that you haven't done it. Right. That you keep saying you're going to do it, but then you don't. According to oxygen in the early hours of July 12th, Conrad texted Michelle, saying, I'm just too sensitive. I want my family to know there was nothing they could do.

I am entrapped in my own thoughts. Michelle responded, I think your parents know you're in a really bad place. I'm not saying they want you to do it, but I honestly feel like they can accept it. They know there's nothing they can do. They've tried helping. Everyone's tried. But there's a point that comes where there isn't anything anyone can do to save you, not even yourself.

And you've hit that point. And I think your parents know you've hit that point. You said your mom saw a suicide. thing on your computer and she didn't say anything. I think she knows it's on your mind and she's prepared for it. She continued texting, everyone will be sad for a while, but they will get over it and move on. They won't be in a depression. I won't let that happen. They know how sad you are and they know that you're doing this to be happy. And I think they'll understand and accept it. They'll always carry you in their hearts. Who does she think she is?

Speaking on behalf of his family. I mean, seriously, you're speaking on behalf of his mom and dad? Like, you know what they're going to say. You know what they're going to feel. How do you even know that? You've only met him once, and it probably wasn't even a great exchange, right? I mean, it was just a brief meeting. And you're acting like, you know exactly what they want you to do,

exactly what he wants to do. Yeah, to be honest with you, I don't even really know what to say. I'm kind of infuriated. But I agree with you. How can she say that his parents know it's going to happen? They'll accept it and they'll move on. Yeah. That is brutal.

On the morning of July 12th, Michelle asked him if he was going to do it today, Conrad said yes. And they discussed timing. When Conrad said he was ready to go through with it, Michelle responded per people. good because it's time, babe. You know that. When you get back from the beach, you've got to do it. You're ready. You're determined.

It's the best time to do it. So again, I think the biggest takeaway for me from these series of texts is that you really kind of get the sense that she's pushing him to do it. Encouraging. Encouraging. Yeah. that's a really good word. But Conrad started expressing doubts about ending his life. Michelle texted per oxygen. I thought you wanted to do this. The time is right and you're ready. You just need to do it. You can't keep living this way. You just need to do it like you did last time and not think about it and just do it, babe.

You can't keep doing this every day. When Conrad said he was hesitant, Michelle responded, you're so hesitant because you keep overthinking it and pushing it off. You just need to do it, Conrad. The more you push it off, the more it will eat at you. And he responded, you're right. Michelle then said, if you wanted as bad as you say you do, it's time to do it today. When Conrad thanked her for being there for him, she said, I would never leave you. You're the love of my life.

My boyfriend, you're my heart. I never leave you. Except she's cheering him on. cheer yeah encouraging pushing cheering him on to to do this thing to end his life it's like she can't wait for it to happen that i don't know about you but it's kind of giving me a really sick feeling because yes this kid is going through some issues there's no doubt about it but he's also very hesitant and he's expressed that to her on multiple occasions but she just comes back hammering with the you've got to do it. Now's the time. The time is right. This is not like somebody that wants to lose weight

and wants to exercise and all this and they're struggling with that and they're saying, I don't know if I can do it. And you're pushing them on. Yeah. Yeah. We're talking about someone wanting to end their life. And not even sure if they do. Yeah. I think that's the big thing about it. And she's she's trying to talk him into it. Starting at 6.28 p.m. on July 12th, Conrad and Michelle talked for 43 minutes. Starting at 7.12 p.m., they spoke for 47 minutes. This was Conrad's last phone call. Michelle sent the following text, as reported by oxygen, and you can say you'll do it tomorrow, but you probably won't. You just need to do it, Conrad, or I'm going to get you help. You can't keep doing this every day. Conrad told her he would do it. Michelle asked, do you promise? And Conrad said he

promised. She texted back, and you can't break a promise and just go in a quiet parking lot or something. She also texted, you just have to do it. It's painless and quit. And again, at some point here, Conrad expressed hesitation. Michelle texted according to people, you always say you're going to do it, but you never do. I just want to make sure tonight is the real thing. What's the sense of urgency see for her. Well, we're going to talk about, you know, what the prosecution, what law enforcement claim was Michelle's motive behind this whole thing. According to people, Michelle sent a text to Conrad's mother, 12 days after he died saying, you did not fail him, even a little bit. You tried your hardest. I tried my hardest. Everyone tried their hardest to save him. But he had his mindset on taking his life. There was nothing anyone could do to save him, no matter how hard they try.

Did she even try? Well, that's why I have to kind of call BS on this. Did his parents try? I'm sure they did. Now, did they know the extent of what he was going through? I'm not sure they did. I think Michelle Carter definitely knew the extent of the issues that, that he was going through. But he also at multiple times expressed hesitation.

Yeah. And every time she pushed him forward saying you've got to do it, you've got to do it. Back on July 10th, 2014, Michelle texted and emailed others claiming that Conrad was missing when he wasn't. A police affidavit stated that Michelle did this because she was planning to continue to encourage Conrad to end his life. She was making a plan to get sympathy from her friends. she had already started saying that it was her fault. Conrad was dead. So maybe now, you know, some of her reasons for doing what she did start to come into a little bit more focus.

And how many times have we seen someone do something for the sake of sympathy or the attention that they get from those around them because a certain event happened that we later find out they caused right to happen poisoning your kids or all sick or even yes all that type of stuff yeah according to people on july 10th michelle texted her friend samantha boardman is there any way a portable generator can kill you somehow because he said he has that and some other tools at the store he said he needed to replace the generator at work and fixed up i didn't really think anything of it but he didn't go to work today. So I don't know why he would have got that stuff. So she's kind of setting it up? Yeah. She's setting, she's setting things up in her world with the people that she know.

This is a couple of days before he died. This is kind of like premeditation, right? I think that's going to be an argument. At 10.51 p.m. on July 11th, one of Michelle's friends asked if Connor had been found, Michelle said she was losing hope that he was alive. Just before she sent this text, she texted Conrad. Let me know when you're going to do it. Now, obviously, at a certain point, please get all these texts. Sure. And they're putting the pieces of the puzzle together and how horrible does it look for her? Well, it doesn't look good. And as Conrad's parents, as you read through this, it's got to make you extremely sick. Yes, absolutely. You know, she's texting friends saying he's missing. I'm worried that he's not alive. Meanwhile, she's texting him. Yeah. She knows he's alive,

but she's also encouraging him to end his life. Yeah, I need you to do this so I can get even more attention from my friends. On July 12th, Michelle texted Samantha Bordman about her phone call with Conrad, saying as quoted by people, he just called me and there was a loud noise like a motor and I heard moaning like someone was in pain and he wouldn't answer when I said his name. I stayed on the phone for like 20 minutes and that's all I heard. The police also found Michelle's written admission to a friend that she told Conrad to get back in his truck during a phone call after he told her he was scared and didn't want to abandon his family. She wrote to her friend Samantha, his death was my fault. He got out of the car and I told him to get back in because I knew he would do it all over again the next day. And this is a really big part of this case.

I mean, all of this is going to come into play. But this point in particular that at a certain point, he got out of the vehicle because he just didn't want to go through with it. And she blatantly told him, get back in there. And that might be the deciding factor for many, right? You were doing wrong all the way up to this point. But when he wanted to walk away as it was happening, right? In the middle of it happening, she could have said, great, get out. You don't have to do it.

But she did the exact opposite. Get back in there almost like, I need you to do this. Because I have all these other things that I've set up on my side. of the world. They're letting me down. Get back in there. On July 21st, Michelle texted Samantha, and I just got off the phone with Conrad's mom about 20 minutes ago, and she told me that detectives had to come and go through his things and stuff. It's something they have to do with suicides and homicides. And she said they have to go through his phone and see if anyone encouraged him to do it on text and stuff. Sam, they read my messages with him. I'm

done. His family will hate me and I could go to jail. Well, yeah, they're going to hate you. You encouraged their son to move forward with this. When he clearly on multiple occasions expressed his hesitancy about moving forward with it. On September 13th, 2014, Michelle helped organize the Homers for Conrad softball game at the Plainville Athletically. The next day, she texted Conrad's phone and said she raised almost. $2,500 from the event to benefit the National Alliance for Mental Illness. Michelle would send over 80 texts to Conrad after he died. In one text, she apologized for not doing enough to stop him for mending his life.

In another text, she wrote as quoted by people, you probably thought I was okay with it and you talked about being in heaven and being my angel. and at the time I went along with it because I knew you weren't going to do anything, but you did it. And I'm sorry I didn't save you. Is this more of a ploy for her to save herself? Yeah, I mean, to me, this is a cover your ass. She's already found out that the police are going to go through his phone.

They're going to see all the texts. And so she sends over 80 texts after he died. and many of these are what? I never thought you would do it. I never thought you would go through with it, that type of stuff. You probably thought I was okay with it. Yeah, you were okay with it. You were more than okay with it.

Exactly. You were encouraging. You were cheerleading for him to do it. Michelle was questioned by the Fairhaven police about Conrad's death on October 2nd, 2014. Four months later on February 5, 2015, a Bristol County grand jury indicted Michelle as a youthful offender for involuntary manslaughter. Yeah, I'm sure Michelle's family's got to be shocked when all this comes out. And how do they feel about it? Well, it's a good point, right?

Obviously, extremely tough on Conrad's parents when they learn all the details, but also tough on Michelle's parents. You know, I don't know exactly what they knew about Conrad. Probably she had told them she had a boyfriend. He lived two hours away. They texted a lot. Whatever. Right. How could they have imagined that she would do something like this? Now, she was only 17, right? So she was indicted as a youthful offender and it was for involuntary manslaughter. Michelle's arraignment took place on February 6th. Her bail was set at 25.5.5.5.000. She was said at 25, $500. She was ordered to have no internet access, except for school assignments, no access to social media, and no texting with anyone besides her parents. You know, that right there can crush a lot of kids. No texting. No social media. No social media. That's a lot. But given what she did with the power of the

text she sent, you could see why a judge would say, I don't really want you texting anyone. else besides your parents. I don't know what you're going to do. Yeah. The case was publicized for the first time later that month. The Sun Chronicle reported that the case wasn't reported on until Michelle was charged because most news organizations don't regularly report on juvenile court. And that would make sense. But, you know, once you find out as the press, the details of this case, it's going to blow up. And this one absolutely did. Well, it blew up big time. After Michelle was charged, the Bristol DA's office issued a statement to the Sun Chronicle, part of it which, part of which read, instead of attempting to assist him or notify his family or school officials, Ms. Carter is

alleged to have strongly influenced his decision to take his own life, encouraged him to commit suicide and guided him in his engagement of activities, which led to his death. And you would have to say, based on what we know, that statement rings true. Yeah, based on text messages. Now, what we haven't talked about is the fact that not one time during all of this, did she reach out to anyone else? We said in the beginning, it was almost like she was. urging him to to maybe try to get some help with his mental health, but not once during that

entire time. Did she reach out to his mom and dad? No. And say, hey, I'm worried. These are the type of things he's talking about, you know, a school official, her mom and dad, or anyone for that matter. But she was okay texting his mom afterwards. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, which doesn't look good, right? And couldn't say for kids, okay, it's tough, and I think we've even talked about it before, do you really believe that someone's going to do something? And at what point do you make the decision that you're going to have to go to some official or somebody's parents? Because you know what's going to happen. They're going to get in trouble. Your relationship with them is probably going to end. But I don't think that's what we're talking about here. That's not the reason

why she didn't reach out to anyone, it's because she had this plan. And part of that plan involved him taking his life, right, or ending his life. The Sun Chronicle also reported on a statement from Michelle's parents, David and Gail Carter issued through their attorney. Our hearts have and remain broken for the Roy family. For everyone that does not know our daughter, she's not the villain, the media is portraying her to be. She is a quiet, kind and sympathetic young girl. She tried immensely to help Mr. Roy in his battle with depression.

We know that once all of the facts are released, our daughter will be found innocent. But based on the text messages that we've seen so far, it seems unlikely. Yeah, but I don't know if they were privy to all of that information, right? At the time that they wrote this, and even if they were, it's going to be hard. not to stand by your child. Yeah, I don't think you're going to abandon your child in a situation like this. And I think the key word is child, right? I mean, she is 17.

She is a child. Michelle's attorney Joseph Cattaldo argued that the texts were protected speech and did not contain any threats. He also noted that Michelle tried to talk Conrad out of it and told him to go to McLean Hospital, where she had gone for treatment before. You know what you argue when text messages do not help your case? You argue that, that they're protected by free speech?

Because you don't want them out there. You got to argue something. If these text messages are allowed in, how damning are they? And I would say extremely. They paint a very vivid picture of what this girl did. Cotaldo told people a lot of what has been reported. thus far is that Michelle Carter always wanted to endorse Conrad Roy's plan to kill himself. But it will be abundantly clear that for weeks prior to agreeing to his plan, she tried to talk him out of it.

And he tried to get her to commit suicide with him. We're dealing with a 17-year-old impressionable female who was not equipped to deal with Conrad Roy's suicide plans. And sadly, he carried through on his plan. Well, there might be some truth there. Well, I think there is some truth there. We know that she did tell him to try to get some help. And she is a 17-year-old. All of that is true.

On April 2nd, Michelle's defense filed a motion to have the case assigned to a special prosecutor. But on June 4th, the judge ruled that the Bristol County DA's office could continue to prosecute the case. On August 18, 2015, the state supreme judge. judicial court denied the defense's appeal and ruled that the DA's office could prosecute the case. On September 22nd, a judge denied the request to dismiss the involuntary manslaughter charge. The judge wrote that even if Michelle didn't understand the consequences of her actions, a reasonable person would have realized that telling Conrad to get back into the truck, which was filled with carbon monoxide, would put that.

that person in grave danger. And the First Amendment does not protect conduct that threatens another person. This is a big defeat for the defense. Oh, absolutely. You know, they didn't want the DA's office to prosecute the case. They lost that one. They wanted this involuntary manslaughter charge, dismissed. They lost that one. But, you know, I want to take a second and just talk about what a different type of case this is from so many that we do. This isn't a case where someone physically murders another person, which you'd have to agree, or the majority of the cases that we do. Right. There's a lot of nuances to this one. And I think that's why, you know, the involuntary manslaughter comes into play. She didn't pull a trigger. She didn't use a knife. She didn't

poison. She used work. And I do believe that's what in large part fascinates so many people about this case. After the hearing, the defense released new text that showed Michelle reaching out to her friends after Conrad previously attempted suicide. Michelle also sent him information about social anxiety disorder. So again, I think they're just trying to bolster this idea. that, you know, she really was trying to help him at first and then it switched. On July 1st, 2016, the state Supreme Judicial Court upheld the indictment and denied the motion to dismiss. The court disagreed with the argument that the tax were protected by the First Amendment stating it was apparent that the defendant understood the repercussions of her role in the victim's

death. prior to his death, the defendant sought to have the victim delete the text messages between the two. Okay. We haven't talked about that. We haven't. But what does it mean? And I think if you're the court, if you're a jury, you look at that and say, she knew that what she was doing was wrong. Because if she thought she wasn't doing anything wrong, why would there be the need to delete the text messages?

And why did she text Samantha and tell Samantha, oh, if they get the text messages, I'm in trouble. Yes. I'm going to jail. I'm going to jail. But now that was after. So there is a difference, right? What did she think before and what did she think after? Right.

This one here is kind of showing the before she did what she did. Like she knew all along she was doing wrong. Yes. Yeah. After a continuance. Michelle Carter's trial started on June 5th, 2017. On that day, Michelle got on the stand and waved her right to a jury trial. Opening statements started on June 6th.

According to people, ADA Mary Claire Flint said Michelle wanted sympathy and attention from other girls at her school. She wanted to be seen as the grieving girlfriend. Lynn told the jury, the defendant needed something to get their attention. She used Conrad as a pawn in her sick game of life and death. Flynn also noted that Michelle never told anyone. She had been helping Conrad plan his death for weeks or that she was on the phone with him the night he ended his life.

So we did kind of foreshadow this, but here you have the prosecution laying out the reason for Michelle doing what she did wanting to be seen as the grieving girlfriend to get the sympathy, to get the attention. And you're going to do that what at the expense of a young man's life? Yeah. That's rough. Really rough. You know, I was thinking as this trial progressed, you know, she's 20 years old at this point. And I wonder if it has an impact. Instead of seeing a 17 year old girl in the courthouse. Now you see this 20 year old at this point probably looking more mature. Adult. Yeah. She's three years older. I would hope it doesn't have an impact on the jury because it shouldn't. Right. Right. They're they're supposed to view what she did as a 17 year old. Yeah.

But we don't know. Juries are made up of people like me and you. Yeah. Human nature. You just never know. prosecutors presented the text messages showing Michelle pressuring Conrad to go through with it. One text per CBS Boston read, all you have to do is turn on the generator and you will be free and happy. The prosecution also argued that Michelle tried to tell the family. She didn't know the manner and location of death despite text messages that indicated otherwise. So, I mean, to me, there's no doubt. was lying to a lot of different people. Yeah. And did lie throughout this entire thing before and after. And I don't think there's any doubt that she pressured Conrad into moving forward with ending his life.

Oh, she for sure encouraged it. Now, I'm sure he brought it up. I'm sure he expressed his feeling to her. but he also many different times expressed how hesitant he was and it's like she just wouldn't let up I mean to the point he exit the vehicle yeah and was told no get back in there I mean if that doesn't scream I don't want to go through with this I don't know what done yeah and I think that's why I said that's such a big part of this case him exiting the vehicle and her telling him to get back in. The defense argued that while Conrad's death was a sad and tragic suicide, it was not a homicide.

According to WPRI, defense attorney Joe Cotoldo referenced Conrad's previous suicide attempt in 2012 and 2012. And presented text messages from 2012 and 2013 that showed Michelle attempting to dissuade him from ending his life. But we're not talking about 2012 and 2013, right? We're saying, okay, so she did the right thing back then. But at a certain point, she stopped doing that and went the other direction. According to WPRI, the defense presented a text from Michelle that said,

we are not dying after Conrad suggested they have a Romeo and Juliet ending. So there was some mention of that, right, made earlier that they, end their lives together. And here's a text of her saying, no, I'm not doing that. We're not dying. The defense also told the jury that Michelle was suffering from mental illness and was taking medications that could have affected her judgment.

Michelle suffered a break that caused her to agree with Conrad's belief that he should end his life. So you can see where they're going. I mean, they can't dispute the text messages. Those are what they are. Right. They kind of lay everything out in stone. It's not one person's word against another's, right? This is cold hard facts.

I mean, these text messages were made and sent. Conrad's mother, Lynn, was the first witness. She testified about her son. As quoted by CBS Boston, I knew he was a little depressed, but I thought he was doing great. I mean, he just graduated. from high school, got his captain's license, and I thought everything was moving forward, not backward. She also said that Michelle sent her some supportive texts after Conrad died.

The defense noted that search record showed Conrad was researching suicide, but Lynn said she was unaware. He was doing this. And I mean, you know, this is heartbreaking for his family. He was obviously struggling with depression, some type of. of mental health issue, but it seems, at least based on what the family was saying, that he was hiding it from them. And that can be very true.

I think it's true in a lot of cases. Three of Michelle's friends testified about the text. She sent them after Conrad died. Samantha Bordman testified that she became friends with Michelle in spring 2014 and that their text conversations focused on eating disorders. on September 15th, Michelle texted her, I should have did more and it's all my fault because I could have stopped him, but I didn't. According to Mass Live, in late September, Michelle sent a long text to Samantha focusing on Conrad's family. At the end of the text, she wrote, Sam, Conrad's death is my fault.

Like honestly, I could have stopped him. I was on the phone with him. And he got out of the truck. because it was working. And he got scared and I effing told him to get back in, Sam, because I knew he would do it all over again the next day. And I couldn't have him live the way he was living anymore. I couldn't do it. And I wouldn't let him.

Well, that's kind of a omittance of guilt, right? Did you say omittance? No. Oh, okay, because that's, I really heard omittance. If you said admittance, or admittance, then I apologize. But I get what you're saying. And this was, you know, something really focused on by the prosecution.

This text in particular, he got out of the truck. He was scared. He didn't want to go through with it. And I told him to get back in the effing truck. But also look at the reason why she gets. I knew he was just going to go through this day after day. And I couldn't let him live that way with what having these feelings but not acting upon them? Or was the bigger problem the fact that it didn't line up with her timeline that she's been working on?

Oh, I absolutely think that was true. Because yeah, he's having these feelings. But again, you didn't reach out to anybody. You didn't let his parents know. Don't you think they would have stepped in and. really tried to help him if they knew what you knew. Of course they would have. But they didn't know because she didn't reach out to them. Michelle's friend Olivia Massago testified that Michelle texted her as quoted by people. I was talking to him on the phone when he killed himself. Live,

I heard him die. I just wish I got him more help. You didn't get him any help. Yeah, she could have tried much harder to get him help but she's you know talking with her friends again along the lines of the sympathy angle she's just leaving parts of the story out because you're not going to get the sympathy you crave if you tell it exactly the way it went down no not at all people are not going to be sympathetic to that you know she could have tried harder getting him help but she didn't she chose to encourage him in the other direction, but she's sure trying to make it sound good to her friends. Alexandra Ethier testified that Michelle texted, yeah, and I was on the phone talking to him when he killed himself. I heard him dying. So, I mean, she's just texting all of these girls. Yeah, I need

attention. Look what I'm going to text you here. Now, she's not wrong about some of this, right? She's just omitting certain aspects the ones that would have made her look back. Psychiatrist Peter Breggen testified for the defense about the effects of Selexa. The medication Michelle was prescribed shortly before Conrad died. Selexa is a depression and anxiety medication that can inhibit impulse control. Breggen testified that younger people were more susceptible to harm from these types of drugs. Reagan noted that Selexa comes with a warning that specifically says there is an increased risk of suicide in people aged 24 and younger. It describes the studies from which that was determined per CBS Boston.

And I get that. I'm not sure that most of those types of medications don't have some type of warning like that. I mean, you look at most medications. There's warnings about, you know, all kinds of stuff. Oh, yeah. You watch a TV commercial about a medication. They can't even tell you what the medication does because over half of the ad is about the possible side effects.

I'm always out immediately when they say can cause chronic diarrhea. Explosive. No, I like explosive. Breggen reviewed all the texts and Facebook conversations between Michelle and Conrad, as well as their medical histories. However, he didn't treat either one of them. Bregan testified that Conrad told Michelle he wanted to end his life in 2012 and said, there was nothing she could do to stop it.

Bregan described Michelle as a little girl who was overwhelmed by Conrad's focus on suicide. Reagan said Michelle seemed very vulnerable and a person struggling with a suicide of her own, according to CBS Boston. Breggen testified she's a helper. Her whole life is helping. Everybody says she's the biggest helper. She lives to help people and make them happy. We have a defense expert witness.

So you are going to expect to hear things framed a certain way. Sure. About Michelle because, you know, he's for the defense. And I get a lot of the things that, that he said might have been very true. But again, he didn't treat. either one of these individuals. She may have been very vulnerable. She may have been a helper. I think what people probably have the biggest problem with is, okay, let's say she wanted to help him end his life because she thought that's what he wanted to do. He told her that's what he wanted to do.

Well, how do you explain all the other stuff around it, right? The telling of her friends days before he die. Right. That he's missing. I'm, I'm afraid he's dead. The urging him on to do it, telling him to get back into the truck, I don't know. Is that helping? I don't think so. He said at first, Michelle tried to help him and stop him from ending his life, but she underwent a transformation before his death. Breggen said Michelle was involuntarily intoxicated by Selexa. This combined with Conrad's influence led her to think she needed to help him get into heaven. Breggen said in court per CBS, she's not thinking she's doing something criminal. She's found a way to help her boyfriend.

She was enmeshed in a delusion. She was unable to form intent because she was so grandiose. She's psychotic. She's deluded. She's disturbed. She's out of touch. So I want to talk about, you know, what the jury was up against. They had the text messages.

Those don't paint a great picture for Michelle Carter. You have the testimony from her friends. That stuff doesn't paint a great picture either. But now you have this defense psychiatrist saying, you know, she's psychotic, delusional, disturbed, and heavily, you know, influenced by this drug that she was taking. And it led her to think that she needed to help. help Conrad get to heaven. I mean, there's a lot more to the trial, but basically that's the crux of it.

It is. The text messages and the sympathy angle versus her mental health issues, this drug that she was taking, and did she really think she was helping him? And the judge has to figure this out. So I think I said jury there gives. I might have said jury a couple times, but I think this was a judge trial. So I think I just misspoke. But it still applies, right?

the judge is weighing this versus that. The central issue in the case was whether Michelle pushed Conrad to end his life or if he was going to do it no matter what. In his closing argument, Joe Catoldo told the judge that Conrad Roy caused his own death. He texted Michelle per CBS, there's nothing anyone can do for me that's going to make me want to live. It's very bad to hear, but I want to let you know that. truthful. Cotaldo also emphasized that Michelle was not with Conrad when he died and made no physical

actions in the case. So what is he saying? She wasn't there. She wasn't there. She didn't physically do anything to cause his death. And there was no one who was going to stop him from doing what he set out to do. Now my argument to that would be he had said this or had been saying this for a couple of years. but hadn't done it. Exactly. How many people in the heat of a really kind of bad mental state would make a statement like that, but not carry it through? And I think the number is probably pretty high.

I think so too. So then the argument to me really becomes, did she push him over the edge to do it? And maybe he wouldn't have done it. So I don't know, I get what the defense attorney is trying to say, but I don't know if you can 100% back that statement up, that there was nothing that was going to stop him from doing that, even if he said that in a text. Prosecutor Katie Rayburn argued, and although she wasn't physically present, she was in his ear. She was in his mind.

She was on the phone. And she was telling him to get back in the car. even though she knew he was going to die. So I'll ask you, Gibbs, which argument do you buy more? The prosecution's argument or the defenses? Prosecution. Yeah, I do too. I get it.

She wasn't physically there. But through communications, she basically was. She was very influential in that decision. On June 16th, 2017, Michelle Carter was found. guilty of involuntary manslaughter, according to people. Judge Lawrence Mohnan said that Michelle put Conrad in a toxic environment, which constituted wanton and reckless conduct. She told Conrad to get back into his truck, which she has reason to know, is or is becoming a toxic environment inconsistent with human life. She did nothing. She did not call the police or Mr. Roy's family.

finally, she did not issue a simple additional instruction to Roy. Get out of the truck. And I think it's pretty hard to argue with that decision. Given everything that we've talked about, the tax messages, her conduct, all of that makes perfect sense to me. On August 3rd, 2017, Michelle was sentenced to two and a half years in jail with all but 15 months suspended. The judge agreed to stay her sentence until her appeal.

was resolved. Before sentencing, Conrad Roy Jr. read a statement in court. As quoted by people, he said, Michelle Carter exploited my son's weakness and used him as a pawn. How could Michelle Carter behave so viciously and encourage my son to end his life? Where was her humanity? In her 2018 appeal, Michelle's attorneys argued that prosecutors cherry-picked texts to make her look back, the text that The texts that showed compassion were not presented, including one text where she encouraged Conrad to get help. Additionally, the defense said that Michelle's words encouraging Roy suicide, however distasteful to this court, were protected speech. So they're really going back to that. Hammering pretty hard.

According to people, the appeal also argued that if the conviction was uphill, Massachusetts would be the only state to uphold. an involuntary manslaughter conviction where an absent defendant, with words alone, encouraged another person to commit suicide. On February 4th, 2019, the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court ruled that the conviction and sentence should stand. Michelle started her 15-month sentence on February 11th, 2019. So, you know, she got two and a half years. all of that but 15 months was suspended.

She's going to do a year and in three months if she serves the entire sentence. You know, people could argue about the length of the sentence, whether or not it's correct. She was 17 years old. She was. Yeah. And like we said, she didn't physically kill anyone. You can argue what her words did. And we have talked about that at length.

But I think you have to say she's kind of. some form of responsibility in this. Oh, to me, there is no doubt about that. I don't think you can argue that part. What you can argue is, you know, what her sentence should have been. Was it too light? Was it too harsh? People can argue that all day. But whether or not she bears some responsibility, I think that's pretty hard to say that she does. On September 19th, 2019, Michelle appeared before the state parole board seeking early release, but the board denied her request. According to people, the board found that her self-serving statements and behavior before and after Conrad died appear to be irrational and lacked sincerity. So it sounds like the

parole board just wants her to spend a little more time thinking about what she did. I mean, she's only been there for about seven months. The board ruled Ms. Carter needs to further address her causative factors that led to the governing offense. On January 13th, 2020, the U.S. Supreme Court declined to hear her appeal. Michelle Carter was released on January 23rd, 2020. After serving 11 months in prison, she was released early due to good time laws, which allow an inmate to take 10 days off their sentence per month for exemplary behavior. Now, I don't have as big a problem with the 10 days off per month. I think in some states at some points in time, it's been like a one day for one day type deal. Yeah. And that's a bit much. That seems like a bit

much. But a spokesman for the Bristol County Sheriff's Office issued a statement. Michelle Carter was considered a model inmate at the Bristol County House of Corrections. She was very busy. She took part in a lot of programs was polite with the staff, had no problems with other inmates. We had no trouble with her at all. Michelle remained on probation until August 22. After Michelle's trial, Conrad's mother and stepfather wanted to change state laws, Massachusetts has no statute to criminalize suicide coercion. Lynn's husband, Roland St. Dennis, told people there should have been a more specific

law. manslaughter made it incredibly difficult, and that's why this case got dragged out for as long as it did. He wrote to several lawmakers and a law professor named Daniel Medwed who helped draft a proposal in Senate to Senator Barry Feingold. In July 2019, Conrad's family, Senator Barry Feingold, and Representative Natalie Higgins announced the filing of Conrad's law. The proposed legislation would impose a sentence of up to five years for anyone who is convicted of pressuring someone else to end their life. Feingold brought up a similar case that occurred that year when Boston college student Alexander Ertula ended his life after his girlfriend urged him to kill himself. He cited this as evidence that the law was needed. Like Michelle, Alexander's former girlfriend in Young You pleaded guilty to,

to involuntary manslaughter. The legislation stalled during the pandemic. In August 2023, the Fall River Reporter reported that Conrad's family was still pushing to pass the legislation. On September 9th of this year, the family hosted the second annual Conrad's Law 5K to raise awareness and gain support for the law. So as I understand it, the law is currently sitting in the House of Representatives,

awaiting passage. I'm sure there's people in favor for that law, but there's probably some good opposition to it as well. Yeah, as there is with most things, right? Not everybody gets on the same pay when it comes to these things. But even if this law was in place at the time, I'm not sure whether Michelle Carter would have gotten five years or not. She was only 17 years old. So would it be mandatory, even if you were not in a adult. I don't know. It's tough to tell. I thought we probably would see more about the issue of the text messages if they should be protected or not protected. Yeah, well, it seems as though, you know, several courts ruled that they, they weren't. Michelle Carter's criminal case made headlines from the

beginning. Several high-profile documentaries and a Hulu series have been produced in the years since she was first charged, the media coverage has led to conversations in debates about cyberbullying, youthful offenders, and suicide coercion. Professionals have called this case a gray area in terms of law and criminal responsibility. And I thought that kind of all the way through. You know, I thought what she did was absolutely wrong. Yeah. A lot of what she did. But I also thought there were lot of gray areas when you know you mentioned protected speech you know what's the criminal responsibility for sending a text or a series of text or whatever i remember when this case first hit the news cycle when i thought i'm really not sure where i said on that one you know i could feel

the pain of the parents but i also thought man this is a 17 year old girl did she really know what she was doing. But in the day, I say she did, you know, based on the text messages and what she did up to the time he took his life and immediately after. Yeah, it wasn't a spur of the moment thing. Yeah. It was set up in advance. Like, you know, she was telling her friends. And so, yeah, I don't know. It's just a strange case and a lot of people are fascinated by it. And it will continue. to be debated for a long time. Obviously, we talked a lot about suicide in this case. If anyone is struggling with those types of thoughts or feelings, please, we urge you to reach out to 988 Lifeline.org. And there are a lot of other resources as well. There is. But that's it for

our episode on Michelle Carter. We got some voicemails, Gibbs. You want to check those out? Let's hear them. Hey, this is Elizabeth, calling from Nebraska, and I was just calling because I used to work at Sonic in high school where Gregory Gables used to hang out. He was the prime suspect in the Tina McMahon murder, and he was just super creepy. He would come to Sonic. He'd ride his bike all over Lincoln and come to Sonic right at about 10 o'clock at closing time and try to come in the restaurant and want to eat his hamburger. He'd go through a trash. He'd harassed all the girls. and the day that the police went up to her apartment when Tina was murdered, he was at Sonic.

And our boss jokingly said to him, hey, they're coming for you. And we were just joking with him. We had no idea he was the suspect. So he was hanging out at Sonic the day that that girl got murdered. And the godfathers that she worked at was right up the road from the Sonic. So it's just, it's still cringing me out. He's still off creeping around Lincoln. I know he was arrested recently for harassing the girl to tanning salon, but the case is still unsolved.

And I think he did it. All right. Thanks for that. I probably should have put that on unsolved, but I put it on decad. Yeah. But, you know, it's always fascinating when people have experiences from the past with individuals, you know, who are suspects or convicted murderers alike. So freaky. Yeah.

Yeah, very. Hi there. This is Sigre from Estonia. I've been listening to both T-Cat and Unsolved since about 2019. And I just wanted to say that having something consistent to look forward to every week during COVID and all the other nonsense that's been happening has really helped with my anxiety, which might be a little strange since you do talk about some terrible things. sometimes, but I was just listening to the Blake Livell episode, and Gibby said he speaks Estonia. Just for future reference, the language is called Estonian, but, you know, when you speak as many languages, as I'm sure he does, it's an honest mistake to make, I think. But, yeah, I just wanted to say,

keep doing what to do, and stay safe and keep your own time taken. Yeah, I was trying to keep it simple for my non-Estonian friends. You were actually much closer than I thought you were. I didn't even know it was Estonian, to be honest with you. So you were closer than I would have been. Yeah. We also had some mailbag. Our good friend, Katie O'Connor, sent us in some gun parts.

You know, she has a new job where she makes gun parts. Okay. Send us in some cool stuff. Thanks, Katie. and Mickey sent in a bunch of Harley chips. Thanks, Mickey. Very cool. She also made you a personalized card and said she specifically did not lick the envelope

because she did not want you to be able to use her DNA. Well, that just takes a fun out of it. People are starting to learn what you're all about. I always put my DNA on cards I sent out. Yeah, I think we probably should just end on that right there. and that's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.