True Crime All The Time - Myra Hindley and Ian Brady

Episode Date: May 24, 2021

Myra Hindley and Ian Brady, known as the Moors Murderers, were British child murderers and rapists. Their crimes are some of the most violent and disturbing acts against children ever committed in Britain. They abducted, tortured, beat, sexually abused, and murdered five children. The couple quickly became the most hated people in the country. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the couple Hindley and Brady. There is a lot of debate about the extent of Myra's involvement in the murders and sexual assaults. There is also some debate as to whether her involvement was the result of her fear of Ian Brady. But, there is no doubt, that she was complicit in crimes against children and remained in a relationship with a killer.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 234 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. Give me what is going on? Hey man, how you doing? I'm doing great. Yeah. Having a really, really good week. You and I have been super busy though. Yeah. We're taping doubles this week to try to get ahead for CrimeCom. Yeah. And that's always tough. It's tough. It's hard for you and I just to get done. we need to get done on a weekly basis. Yes. To double it up is, uh, it's quite a chore.

But we knew we were going to have to do it. This means some doing extra talking. Yeah. It's a lot of talking for you this week. It is. Wear me out. Let's go ahead and give our shoutouts. For Patreon, we had Yelly G.

Hey, Yelly. BJ. What's going on, BJ? Becky Oyee. Hey, Oyey. Connie Sullivan. Appreciate that. Connie.

Donice Stockton. Hey, Donis. Alexander Bebus. Hey, Bebis. Wendy Connell. What's going on, Wendy? Barbara Bauteller. Hey, Boetteller.

Eau Tessa Clark. Appreciate that, Arisa. Shana Parks. Hey, Shawna. Brittany White. Hey, Brittany. Debra. That's what I'm going with.

Petty Paul. Yeah, come here, Petty Paul. I'm leaving the S silent. Okay. Laney Miller. Hey, Lainey. Mandy. What's going on, old Mandy?

Oh, man. Melissa Bishop. Hey, Melissa. Shelby Sawyer Well, appreciate that, Shelby. Fobby Johns. Well, thank you, Fobby. Nikki Gathard.

What's it going on, Gatford? Cameron Haskell. Hey, you Haskell, Rascal. Charlotte Miller. Hey, Charlotte. Lisa McLeod. Appreciate that, Lisa. Chris Richardson.

Man, thanks, Chris. And Helena Floodin jumped out at our highest level. Floodin is right on. Floating right on. Yeah. And then if we go back into the Vault Gibbs, Let's do it. This week we selected Sue Kelly.

Appreciate that, Sue. Yeah, appreciate the new support, the long-term support. It all goes a long way. We had some great PayPal donations as well from LJW real estate. And that's a real estate firm. Is it? Just did you get that from the words real estate in it? Yeah, it's like stating the obvious.

Okay. Yeah. Thank you, Captain obvious. Yeah. Dana Mackey. What's going on, Dana? Claire Milne. Hey, Milne.

And Christy Hines. Man. Back from the pretenders. They are. She is. They are and she is. So we appreciate all the PayPal donations as well. Gibbs right now on True Crime All the Time Unsolved.

We have an episode out. We're headed over to Ireland. Are. Mid-1980s time frame. Yeah. To talk about the Carrie babies. We're going to talk about that. infant that was found on the beach murdered and kind of go down a few trails. But it's a good episode.

Definitely make sure you check that out. Gives, we have CrimeCon coming up very, very quickly. Yeah, we go on? Yeah. Yeah, we'll be there. Yeah, we will. And I know we've heard from a lot of folks that are going. We've also heard from a lot of folks who couldn't get tickets, which really stinks. I mean, I think all they had left was the really high-priced ones. You have a VIP. VIP or whatever they're called. And I think it's because they had to roll over all the tickets that they sold for last year that didn't happen. Right.

And the fact that I think they had to reduce it, the capacity. Sure. Some for COVID. But so all of that stinks. But we're looking forward to seeing whoever is there. Yeah. That's a fan of the show. I'm excited.

Yeah, I'm excited to get away, man. Yeah. I really need to. get out of this basement, get somewhere, meet some people, have a Coca-Cola or two. You're staying at the main hotel, and you got me booked in some motel. Hotel holiday inn? Yeah. No.

Once again, you lie. As you are prone to do, we both are staying in the same exact hotel with the same exact rooms. As long as we're not in the same room. It's not like I have a sweet. No, we're not in the same room. Okay. So, all right, buddy.

Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I'm ready. We're talking about the Moore's murders, Myra Henley and Ian Brady. Pretty well-known case out of Great Britain. You know, there are few things, more terrifying than serial murderers, but something that is perhaps more shocking and horrifying to all of, of us is the murder and sexual assault of children. Myra Henley and Ian Brady, known as the Moors' murderers, were British child murderers and

rapists. Their crimes are some of the most violent and disturbing acts against children ever committed in Britain. They abducted, tortured, beat, sexually abused, and murdered five children. The couple quickly became the most hated people in the country. And I think that's going to happen. If you're going to do all of that to innocent children, right. You're not going to have many people in your corner.

No, you're not going to have any fan base. No, everybody is going to be on the other side of the aisle from you, shouting at you, throwing tomatoes, holding picket signs, wanting, you know, to be honest with you, very bad things to happen to you. They were horrible people. Now, there is a lot of debate. about the extent of Myra's involvement in the murders and sexual assaults. But I think at the end of the day, regardless of what she did or didn't do,

she was definitely complicit in crimes against children. And she did remain in a relationship with a killer. In this episode, we'll discuss how these two individuals came to be serial killers, how they got together, their crimes, their vicarious. their victims, and how they were finally brought to justice. Myra was born on July 23rd, 1942. In Gorton, Manchester, a poor working class area. Her parents were Bob and Nellie Henley.

Myra grew up as a perfectly normal child. She could write and read from a very young age. She was mature for her age, and she was extremely intelligent. For the first few years of her life, she and her mother lived in her grandmother's house. She did have a pretty strange relationship with her father, though. She did. Yeah, I think when he returned home from the war, he had changed and it caused a lot of upheaval in the family. He was an alcoholic who allegedly beat Myra and her mother Nellie. Myra's sister, Maureen, was born in 1946.

and her parents sent her to live with her grandma because they just thought it was too difficult to raise two children. Some people think it's difficult to raise one. Yeah. It's not easy raising children. Now, I think it's harder when you have a lot of these things going on, right? As a father, if you're a full-blown alcoholic, okay, going to be tougher to raise children. your temper flares easily.

And let's face it, children push buttons. It's kind of what they do. Yeah, they're learning, right? They're trying to establish boundaries. But I think that had to be hard on Myra. It was. Yeah, I think so too. But the good news was that her grandma lived just down the street

and she was able to visit almost every day. I mentioned that she was intelligent. Myra did very well in school. but she had poor attendance because her grandmother let her skip whenever she wanted to. Good old grandma. Well, grandmas normally let you get away with a little bit more. They do. Then moms and dads.

But to make money, Myra babysat for mothers in the neighborhood and would even help some of the children learn to walk. She had fun as a teenager. And according to her friend, she was extremely popular with the boys. Her best friend was a boy named Michael Higgins. One day Michael asked Myra to go swimming at a local pond, but she couldn't go. And Michael ended up drowning at the local pond that day.

Oh, that's really bizarre. Yeah. I mean, first of all, Myra was devastated. And a lot of people said that she was never, never really the same after that incident. She converted to Catholicism because Michael was Catholic. So I don't know, Gibbs. Did she have a picture perfect life? No, it wasn't. But I will say it's not nearly as bad as some of the serial killers that you and I often profile. And I think this is

something that's going to come up. We may save it for the end as we wrap up the case, but, you know, just to foreshadow it, you know, it's one of those things where would she have done what she did on her own or is it meeting Ian Brady and, you know, kind of following along with his kind of sick and twisted ways that led her to do what she did. And it's something that, you know, I think people should think about throughout the episode and something that we'll talk about later. Yeah, I agree with you. Myra left school at the age of 15. By 17, she was engaged to a boy named Ronnie Sinclair, a local who worked at a co-op.

Myra wanted to have a husband, kids. She wanted a family. But then she also told people there was a part of her that wanted a non-traditional, exciting life. So I think it sounds like to me, Gibbs, she was very conflicted. You know, on the one hand, she wanted the home and the white picket fence and the family. Yeah. On the other hand, she wanted none of that. And she wanted to be free to go out and have fun and have kind of a, you know, an exciting life.

She eventually ended her engagement with Ronnie. And she got a job at a chemical distributing company. That's where she met Ian Brady. Ian Brady was born on January 2nd, 1938 in central Glasgow, Scotland. He was the child of an affair. His mother, Margaret Stewart, was a waitress and his father is unknown. A family in town fostered him until the age of two. And it was at that point that his mother took him and moved to Manchester.

Ian got the nickname Dracula because he was fascinated by horror movies, but also because he was fascinated. fascinated with torturing animals. It was good up until you added that tortured animals. I think it's okay to be fascinated by horror movies. A lot of people like them. It's when you start acting out some of the things that you see in horror movies. That's where the problem begins.

That's where some of the problems begin. And you and I know. And the audience knows as well. Anytime we start talking about a youngster torturing animals, it doesn't end up well. He once threw a cat out of a top floor window. He once told neighbors that he buried a cat alive just to see how long it could live. You know, this was a kid Gibbs who had a bad temper. He was always kind of displaying bad behavior. Yeah, he's one of those individuals when he gets really mad, he would bang his head up against the wall and other items. And I've seen people like that. I don't

advise it. I don't think it's good for your melon. No. But there are kids who on their own just cannot control their emotions. I know my wife has talked about having some kids in her class over the years who when their emotions got out of control, they would bang their head on the desk. Yeah. Repeatedly. And there was really nothing she could do to stop it. She tried. I mean, I'm sure she successful sometimes, but. Otherwise, you just had to let it run its course? They just couldn't regulate. Yeah.

And most likely needed to be on some type of medication or something like that. And maybe the parents knew that and wouldn't get it. Maybe they hadn't taken the kid anywhere at that point. Right. Now, we're pretty far back in time when it relates to children having issues that would require prescriptions. Today it's pretty commonplace. I don't know how commonplace it was back then to be put on medication for or be diagnosed

with things like ADD or other types of things that would require medication. Yeah, I think you're exactly right. You know, did they even diagnose that back then? And if they did, did they have the medication to control it? Yeah, I don't know. I do think at a certain point in time, kids were on their own to, to, to try to try to figure out to try to regulate their emotions and that's pretty hard to do when ian was a teenager he started his life of crime in 1951 he was charged with theft and breaking and

entering he received nine more charges that year for breaking and entering alone so he did a lot of breaking and entering at a very young age the judge told him he could avoid jail time if he spent two years of probation with his mother in Manchester. Live with your mom, and I'll just give you two years there and we'll call it square. And his mother married Patrick Brady in 1950. And that's how Ian got his new last name. His stepdad got him a job, but it really didn't help. He just couldn't get on the straight and narrow in December 195.

He was charged with theft. and sent to prison. You know, prison can change somebody. I think it changes quite a few people. I think it changed Ian. You know, he's made claims that it was his time in prison that triggered his hatred of society. He was released in 1958 and went back to living with his parents. He began working at a place called Millward's Merchandise, a small chemical distributing firm in Gordon.

the same chemical distributing company where Myra Henley was working. Yeah. So to me, you know, these types of things in these cases are always interesting. And I think especially so in this one with a lot of people wondering if Myra would have done what she had done, if she had not met Ian Brady. So you kind of think about the odds that you end up working at the same place. as this individual, you hit it off as we're going to talk about and then things go really badly. What if he never starts there? Right.

You know, you can really play that what if game. In 1961, Ian was a 23 year old stock clerk at Millward's merchandise. Myra was 18 years old and she worked as a secretary. For Myra, it was love at first sight. not quite the same for Ian. Apparently he ignored her for the first year that they worked together. So really was not attracted to her at all. I mean,

ignored her for a whole year. If he was, he was really good at not showing it. Exactly. Because you're playing a long game. Of playing hard to get. Yeah. And you're playing it for a long time.

A year passes. I think for Myra's part, she was fascinated by him. Ian was mysterious. He was attractive. He was one of the only guys that worked there who drove a motorcycle. And you know what they say about Gibbs guys that drive a motorcycle. Yeah, they're substituting something. Oh, you got me there. No, they're mysterious. They're adventurous. Apparently, she wrote about him every day in her diary. You know, she wrote down if he looked at her that day, what type of mood he was in. I think it got to the point where it's pretty safe to say she was obsessed with him. I would say for sure she was.

But here's the thing and what most people point to, Myra was an extremely normal person until she met Ian and then everything changed. Yeah. And he transformed her into a different person. Yeah, I do think he did. Ian Brady was bisexual. but he was more attracted to men than he was to women. Well, that maybe explains why she didn't get the old looky loo during that one year period of time.

It could. It could. Now, he liked Myra eventually because she was so obsessed with him. He never loved her, but he did love how she worshipped him. It gives, I don't know if you've ever been in this position. I have not. I've never been worshipped. You neither.

I can imagine it's an extremely powerful feeling to have someone so completely devoted to you that they would do anything you wanted them to do just to stay with you. It's almost scary. It's a little scary too. Right. It's like so when and if you were done with the relationship, what happened? Do they still stay? Or they're like, it's not over. Or they go fatal attraction, you know, a complete 180.

Yeah. Because they still are so obsessed with you. Bunny on the stove. Yeah. And maybe, you know, it's probably a good thing that neither of us have been in that situation. I know my wife loves me. I would never say she worships me. Oh, I can agree with you.

And you would say that sometimes I'm not even sure she likes me. You know, there are those days. We have our moments. But Myra became Ian's girlfriend after the company Christmas party in 1962. Oh, those Christmas parties, man. You never know what's going to happen the next day. They can get wild. They can.

Especially, you know, back in the day when companies provided the alcohol. Oh, yeah. I don't know how much that still happens today because of liability, laws and all that. Ian began to manipulate Myra, to believe. everything that he believed. And maybe not too hard. To do that when you think about the fact that she worshipped him, meaning she would do anything for him.

That's the way I take it. He took her to the theater to see the Nuremberg trials. He played Hitler songs. He made her read a bunch of, you know, kind of sadistic, tight books. Myra's family didn't like Ian. And I don't think it's too hard to see why. Not sure that this guy is good for Myra at all, but she ignored their warnings.

And they moved in together in early 1963. And really what happened was Myra withdrew from all her friends. She didn't want to talk to them anymore. She didn't want to see them anymore. Sometimes you see that when someone's being manipulated by their partner. Sometimes you'll see that even in good relationships because two people are just so into each other that they kind of drift apart from some of their friends. They become each other's best friend and they're spending all the time together.

I see that in what I would call healthy relationships. I don't think I'm going to call this one a healthy relationship. And I think she very quickly moved away for, very different reasons. I don't think it was a drift. I think it was a very quick decision that I'm not going to see these people anymore. You remember she joined the church when her best friend drowned, but now Ian told her, God's not real and got her to stop going to church. Pretty powerful. Yeah. Ian preferred violent BDSM type sex. And so Myra participated in that because he wanted her to, and she wanted to make him happy.

You know, basically, Gibbs, she did anything that he asked of her and really kind of changed her entire personality. Well, sure. I mean, the obsession was real for her. She finally has this man that she's wanted for a few years and she doesn't want to lose him. Yeah, I think you're exactly right. But to me, this is very scary for a young girl to get so wrapped up into someone who, obviously, has some strange beliefs is, is, you know, doing some things on the regular that a lot of us

would find strange. Anytime you change your entire personality for someone, I'm not sure that's a good thing, Gibbs. You got to be you and you need to be with someone who likes you for you. I mean, you know, when you're with somebody who wants to change everything about you, Right. You got to question that relationship. Sure. Your soul's lost. It's not the real you. Be the real you. In early 1963, Ian planned a bank robbery and asked Myra to be his getaway driver. So Myra took driving lessons. She joined a rifle club and she bought two guns. She's really taking this role serious. Now, Ian never really planned to commit the robbery. It turned out to be a test. to see if Myra would do everything he asked, and she passed.

And it was really just a few months after this point that the killings began. The two earned the nickname the Moore's murderers because they buried almost all their victims on Saddleworth Moore. Ultimately, Myra and Ian murdered five children, 16-year-old Pauline Reed, 12-year-old John kill bride, 12-year-old Keith Bennett, 10-year-old Leslie Ann Downey, and 17-year-old Edward Evans. Pauline Reed was the couple's first victim. On July 12, 1963, she was on her way to a disco when she was abducted near Gordon, Manchester. When Ian spotted Pauline, he told Myra that he wanted to commit his perfect murder.

So he's telling her, Gibbs, exactly what he wants to do. And she's all in. Because why? Because she does in love with him. She's obsessed with him. And she'll do anything and everything that he asked her to do. Myra drove past Pauline and offered her a ride. Then she asked her to help her look for a missing glove.

Pauline and Myra were neighbors. And this is why, you know, it's thought that Pauline trusted her. Ian followed behind them on his motorcycle. Myra waited in the van while Ian led Pauline out to the moor. After 30 minutes, Ian returned alone and he took Myra to where Pauline's body was. Ian told Myra he raped Pauline before he killed her. And that's got to be shocking to hear even from somebody you're obsessed with. Yeah, I agree with you.

But I think she had an idea that this was coming, right? He had already told her that he was going to try and commit the perfect murder. There are other accounts of the events that night. One has Myra and Pauline trying to find the glove when Ian snuck up behind her and killed her. Ian claimed that Myra was there and participated in the sexual assault. Myra would reveal many years later that Ian told her if she backed out, she'd be in the same grave as Pauline. So again, we're talking about things that will come out later. But, you know, all of these things are important because you have differing accounts of the events as they occurred that night.

And these different accounts put different levels of involvement. sure they do on different people you know later mira's going to say that she was afraid she did what she did because she was afraid that ian would kill her is that true or not i don't know i think he had the uh means to do it you showed her that yeah he had the means to do it the question is did he have to or was mira so into him that she was going along with these things willingly i think that's the real question, and it will be as we go through this episode. They buried Pauline's body together, allegedly days later. Myra began to shake and cry after reading the missing persons report, and Ian beat and strangled

her for this. He didn't want her to feel like that, even though that was somebody that she knew. And this is a girl that she knew from her area. Yeah, I think Ian was pretty remorseless. I don't think this bothered him. all. My feeling Gibbs is that he wanted her to feel the same way. Sure. Toughen up. Toughen up. Get on the same page with me. We're going to be doing these things and you can't be having these type of emotional outbursts. Yeah, he was enjoying it. He didn't want to see somebody

upset over it. Four months later, they targeted John Kilbride. John disappeared from a market in Ashton underline on November 23rd, 1963. David Kilbride, John's brother, went to the market with him. John disappeared. But no one really thought anything of it because back then it was normal for children to wander around, take off. Yeah, they'll be home later. And John was pretty punctual.

He was always home by 6.30. He usually arrived home before 6 p.m. but not that night. No, he never came home and his family called the police. On that day, Myra offered John a ride home telling him his parents would be worried. Again, she asked him to help search for a missing glove and took him to the moor where Ian sexually assaulted him and attempted to slit his throat before strangling him with a shoelace. Keith Barnett disappeared on June 16, 1964, on his way to his grandmother's house in Longsight. Myra asked him for help putting boxes into her car.

Ian was waiting in the back of the van. They took Keith to the Moor asking him to help look for a glove. Ian sexually assaulted Keith before strangling him. He buried the body with a spade. They took Keith deep out into the moor. which was unusual for them to do. Keith's grandma approached his mother on the evening of June 16th and told her that Keith never showed up at her house.

So Keith's mom went to the police station and they told her that she had to wait 48 hours. Pretty typical back then. We know that. Yeah. And apparently it wasn't just a thing in the United States. This happened over in Britain as well. One thing I want to talk about Gibbs is. is, and we already said it, right, regardless of what role you think Myra played in these murders.

There's no doubt that she up to this point was luring victims to their death. Yeah, she was definitely involved. Yeah. The thing that kind of flashed into my head was kind of a Ted Bundy type role. Now, he played both roles. he did the luring, but he also did the killing. Yeah. She's almost the Ted Bundy, hey, my arm's broken.

Can you help me get this surfboard off my, or into the bug or off the top of the bug or whatever? And then Ian is carrying out the sadistic sexual assaults and murders. Well, she knew exactly what was going to happen to these people. Yeah, I don't think there's any doubt about that, especially after the first time. Exactly. And I think she knew the first time. But after that first one, you can't even give her really the benefit of the doubt at that point. Myra and Ian took Leslie Downey from a fair ground on December 26, 1964. Myra and Ian spotted her walking alone. They dropped their shopping bags in front of her, asked her to pick them up. and then offered her a ride home.

They drove her to her house, made her remove her clothes, and took photographs of her. Afterwards, Ian raped her and killed her. They made a tape recording of Leslie's final moments. In the recording, Leslie calls out for her mom and asks God to help her.

Okay, that's heartbreaking. Terrifying. The next day, they drove her body to the moor and buried it. I mean, that Morris is just turning to a big cemetery at this point. Yeah. Again, pretty big area, I believe. But it's also one of those things that you think about, right?

You see a big field. There's a big field across from my house. There is. You think there's bodies buried there? It's very possible. Could be. Who knows? Did you see my truck out there?

No. Oh, okay. No. I know you've been out there before, but 10 months later, the couple's crimes would come. to an end. And it came from an unlikely source. Myra's brother-in-law, David Smith, Gibbs, apparently David was in awe of Ian Brady. I don't know what kind of hold this Ian Brady had over people, but he obviously had some type of magnetic personality that made people want to be around him,

want to do everything that he told them to do. He said that charisma. Something. The two of them were friends. David married Maureen Henley in August 1964. Her family didn't approve of the marriage because I guess David was a little bit of a bad boy. He had a troubled past. He was raised by his grandparents after his parents abandoned him. When David was 11 years old, he went to court for attacking another boy with a knife. He was expelled from school for punching the headmaster. Well, that will do it. Yeah, usually kind of a no-no at school. You don't walk into the principal's office and throw a haymaker and lay him out, him or her. He moved to another school after attacking a student with a cricket bat. It's going to hurt. Yeah, it's going to hurt.

I mean, you and I aren't all that familiar with cricket, but I mean, I know what the bat looks like. Kind of looks like the paddles to me that they used to use in our elementary schools. Yeah. that we got smacked with quite a few times. Yeah. He ended up finishing his education at a reform school. And Ian and Myra thought that David would be like their perfect accomplice, right? He was in trouble a lot.

He had a bad temper. He had, you know, bad troubled past. Ian spent a year grooming him. And I said it. David looked up to him because Ian was older. Yeah, he idolized them. And he had some kind of extremist type views, which I guess David was also into. They had taken a number of trips to the more and talked about torture,

talked about, you know, Nazi beliefs, things like that. In early October 1965, Ian bragged to David that he'd murdered people. Now, David didn't take him seriously because they were both. drunk. And I get that. People say some off the wall things when they've been drinking. I've said my fair share. Now, the one thing I've never said, Gibbs, is, you know what? I've murdered people. Yeah. Murdered a few people. They're out there. Out there and that more. I did that. He's probably thinking, you just had one too many pints, buddy. On October 6, 1965, David Smith witnessed the murder of 17-year-old Edward Evans. According to Ian Brady, David Smith came to him with a letter

from his landlord asking for money. And it was David Smith, who suggested committing a hate crime where they would target a gay man, beat him, and rob him. So the two drove to Manchester. There they met Edward Evans at a railway station, and they lured him back to Ian's house. Ian tried to rob Edward, but he fought back. David Smith then began beating Edward, according to Ian. Now, this is something that David would vehemently deny a court. This account from Ian, you really have to take it with a grain of salt. Because I do think it's been proven that Ian Brady was a pathological liar.

Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but I think you have to take it with a grain of salt. to solve. Sure. Because most people believe that David told the real truth. And that was that Ian picked up Edward at the train station. When he got back to the house, Ian told Myra, he brought Edward back to have sex with him. He asked Myra to go get David. Myra invited him in for some wine. And Ian offered to show David a demonstration of murder. Demonstration of murder. Hey, come over to the house. house will crack open a bottle of vino and i'll show you how to kill someone what is going through some of these individuals minds i i just don't get it so bizarre i mean how is that even acceptable well you know to me ian already had mira kind of brainwashed if you want to call it that he

had her under his control well he certainly did but now they've expanded their group group, right, trying to bring David Smith in as an accomplice. And to me, you're really taking a big leap that this person is going to find out what you're doing and they're going to be completely okay with it because I just don't know how many people would. David said he was in the kitchen when he heard a loud scream. He ran to the living room to see Ian, Myra, and Edward. fighting. At first, he said he thought it was a doll, but then he realized it was a real person. Edward

was much harder to kill because he was 17 years old and he was a big teenager. Wasn't going to go down without a fight. Yeah, Gibbs, think back to your son at 17. He was a big boy. He was a big boy. Not someone that I would want to pick a fight with. And, you know, they had killed. four people by this time, but they were younger. 10, 12. Pauline was 16, but she wasn't going to put up the same struggle as 17-year-old, beefy teenager Edward would put up. And one thing that we really haven't talked about yet is Ian wasn't this great big guy.

He was kind of small and frail. But he was used to picking on people younger and smaller than himself. Well, he had to this point. That's for sure. Ian was beating Edward with an electrical cord, trying to get him to stop shouting. But Edward wouldn't stop. So Ian grabbed a hatchet and he hit him until he was quiet. He hit Edward a total of 14 times.

Ian wrapped a cushion cover around Edward's head, tied a cord around his neck and strangled him. Ian then looked at Myra and told her, that's it. That's the messiest yet. Myra claimed she was at the house, but remained in the kitchen the entire time until she helped clean up. Now, David was there, right? We mentioned that. He also helped Ian and Myra clean up the body. But according to him, it was only because he feared for his life.

Maybe that's true. It had to be pretty scary. I would think so. he just watched a man beat a 17-year-old strangle him to death. David transferred Edwards' body to a spare room. And then afterwards, they allegedly all had tea together. It's tea time. We've got to stop.

Let's get our tea. Maybe a biscuit. Yeah. Something like that. Makes you wonder, though, they weren't really that shook up? Or maybe David was going along with it. Well, I would say for sure, Ian probably wasn't that shaken up. I don't think that murder to him was all that rough. I mean, I think he did it with relative ease. You can make the argument

about Myra, what she thought about it, depending on if you believe some of the things she said or not. Now, David, I think he was probably shaken up. And I think he probably was fearful. for his life. So if they said move this body, he moved this body. And if they said it's tea time, he was going to drink a damn cup of tea. That's what he was going to do. He said at that table with his pinky out, sipping away. Ian asked David to go home and get something so that they could get the body into the van. And David did, as he was told, he started walking home. And then when he thought that Ian couldn't see him. He took off in a full sprint. Probably just wanted to be somewhere where he would feel safe. Yeah, I don't think he felt safe. He ran home to Maureen and he told her everything.

You imagine hearing that, your spouse coming through the door and saying, you will not believe my night. You will not believe what happened. It'd be tough to believe. But I can imagine the state that David was in, probably helped sell it. I'm sure he wasn't telling it like I'm talking to you right now. He was shaking up. He was, you know, in an agitated state and probably helped her to believe that,

hey, something really bad had happened. She's probably like, what is my sister doing over there? And basically David spent the rest of the night keeping watch, armed with the screwdriver and a kitchen knife. And I think that too tells you the level of terror that he was going through, he was afraid that Ian was going to come after him.

At 6 a.m. on October 7th, he and Marine went together to the phone box outside their house and they called 999 and they stayed inside that phone box holding a knife until police arrived. And from there, David basically told them everything. He gave them as many details as he could. So 24 officers surrounded Myra and Ian's house. David warned them that they had guns. So instead of storming the house, they sent a breadman to the front door. Once Myra opened the door and police officers saw that she was unarmed, they swarmed. They found Edward's body in the spare room wrapped in plastic.

Ian was taken to jail. But Myra was allowed to go home. Now, David Smith insisted that there were more children missing and more murders. Ian had joked with him about burying children on the moors. Inside the house, the police found a list planning a robbery. Inside a prayer book, they found a ticket for a suitcase locker at a train station in Manchester. Ian had written John Kilbride in a notebook as well. as plans of how to get rid of Edwards' body.

And I think after they found all of this Gibbs, they started thinking, hey, we're dealing with some serial killers here. Yeah, this is more serious than we even thought. At the train station, they found the pictures of Leslie. They also found some books about torture in one of the suitcases. They found the tape recording that Ian and Myra had made of Leslie's death. It's got to be damaging to their defense for sure later. Well, and I think it was right after that that they arrested Myra.

You know, in the beginning, they most likely thought, well, she can't be involved in this. There's no way. But once you find the tape, you listen to the tape, you got to change your mind about that. It's a little hard to dispute that. Myra and Ian were arrested one year after Parliament abolished capital punishment. So the worst sentence that they could possibly face was life in prison. On their part, Myra and Ian planned to implicate David in the murders. They said that he brought Leslie to the house so Ian could take pictures of her.

They said that David took Leslie away and killed her. And police were suspicious of David, but ultimately determined that he didn't participate in any of the murders and had, only been at the house and witnessed Edwards murder. Detective Chief Inspector Joe Mousney told the local news outlets, but for the squeamishness of David Smith, whatever one may think of him, there might have been more bodies. And Gibbs, I think that's 100% right. I mean, you have to think of an alternate kind of path where David's all in on what they're doing. Sure, yeah.

And so he becomes the third accomplice. And who knows how long these murders would have gone on, if not for the fact that he called police. Yeah, talking about a whole lot more victims. A search party went out in October, 1965, to Saddleworth Moore, to search for bodies. Four children had been reported missing, but only two bodies were found in 1960. they found Leslie and John buried on the Moor. They found Leslie's body on October 16th because Gibbs her arm was sticking out of the ground. Erie.

Well, you know, imagine that you're in the search group. Yeah. And you're walking, you know, out on the Moor and all of a sudden you see an arm. Not too hard to figure out right away what that is and what that means. You've just found a dead body. After killing John, Ian took a picture of Myra standing on the edge of his grave. Police found a photo of Myra on the moor with her puppy. And they believed that the victim was buried in this spot.

So really what they tried to do was figure out how old her dog was so that they could determine when the bodies were buried. So we're going back based on how old. old the dog was now versus how old it was in the picture. They took her dog, put it under, and tested the dog's teeth. Unfortunately, Gibbs, the dog died, which is extremely sad, sometimes happens with anesthesia. Myra was heartbroken. She called the police murderers, but ultimately this picture did help the police locate the body. They found John on October 21st. Their trial began in April of 1966. There was a lot of security preparations to protect

Myra and Ian. It was thought by police that citizens were going to come try to get them and lynch them. It's a possibility. Well, people don't take kindly to child murderers. No. They just don't. And it wouldn't be the first time that that ever happened. I don't know how many times has happened, But we know it's happened where communities, ordinary citizens have taken the law into their own hands. They've not wanted to wait for the criminal justice system to play itself out. Yeah, they wanted someone to pay and pay right now. I think it used to happen a lot back in the 1800s, not so much today. And maybe even into the, you know, into the 1900s.

Gibbs, the prosecution played the entire 16-minute tape recording of Leslie's murder. Imagine how powerful that was, 16 minutes documenting the murder of this young girl. It's going to be really tough to defend that one. Well, and apparently the judge, jury, spectators, even police officers started crying as this tape was played. Myra's voice could be heard telling Leslie to be quiet, saying she was worried the neighbors would hear. And on the tape, we kind of already mentioned it, but Leslie called Myra mom and asked her for help.

And I think that right there was extremely damning to Myra in court. Hard to recover from that. Yeah, because you really can't say, hey, I didn't have anything to do with any of this. when your voice is caught on tape, right? in this act of murder, Myra argued that her main role was to kidnap the children, but that she never took part in the sexual assaults or murders.

David was the prosecution star witness, but the publicity didn't help him at all. Not that it ever would, but it really kind of hurt him. He became known as the third Moore's murderer. People wrote, child killer in graffiti on his apartment. Even after he and Maureen moved, people continued to harass him because they thought he was a child killer. The trial lasted 14 days and ended with life sentences for both Myra and Ian.

On May 6, 1966, Myra and Ian were convicted of murdering Leslie and Edel. Edward. Ian was also convicted of murdering John. Ian was sentenced to three concurrent life terms. Myra was sentenced to two concurrent life terms plus seven years for accessory. That's a way to keep them in there. Yeah, those are, those are big time sentences. The only thing that I think would have been better was if they had made them consecutive. But I'm not going to argue with those sentences the way that we do with some, you know, getting out after three years, seven years. Yes.

But this was a high profile case and these were obviously very heinous crime. So I think there was no way they were getting out that early. If at all, Judge Fenton Atkinson said in court, though I believe that Brady is wicked beyond belief without hope of redemption, I cannot feel the same is necessarily true of Henley. once she is removed from his influence. When the couple were first arrested, they wrote letters to each other and even requested to get married.

But then they started to gradually drift apart. Ian accepted that he would spend his life in prison, but Myra continued professing her innocence and blamed Ian and David. In 1970, Myra cut off all contact with Ian. She realized she would never see him again. In 1977, she began her legal battle to get out of prison. Myra finally confessed that David wasn't involved. She said that she and Ian had lied about everything.

Ian came up for parole in 1982. He was denied. No shocker there. He wrote a letter to the Sunday Times stating he'd accepted his sentence and didn't want to be released in 1985 or 2005. or 2005. Twelve years later, a judge announced he'd never be released. Takes care of that. Yeah, it takes care of that.

And I think that's what you want to hear, right? If you're the public, especially about Ian Brady. You don't want this guy ever getting out. He never again applied for parole, never tried to claim he was innocent. Myra's parole application was delayed until 1985. She was denied parole. and the judge said she couldn't plead her case again for another five years. And it was after that that Myra changed tactics.

And she made a public confession. Ian had also spoken to a journalist. So the greater Manchester police reopened their case. In 1985, Myron, Ian confessed to two more murders, Pauline Reed and Keith Bennett. Myron, Ian often took photos of themselves on the more. where they buried their victims. Unfortunately, photos didn't help find Keith's body.

But they did take Myra out to the Moors after she confessed. They found Pauline Reed's body on June 30th, 1987, after three months of searching. So I think that kind of tells you what type of area we're talking about here. Her throat was cut so deeply Gibbs that it broke her vertebrae. She also had received a very violent blow to the head. But Keith's remains have never been found. Ian Brady was declared criminally insane in 1985 and sent to Park Lane Special Hospital,

now called Ashworth. He confessed to killing Keith in November of 1985 after he was transferred. In jail, Myra claimed that Ian beat and blackmailed her and that he threatened to kill her entire family if she didn't help him with his crimes. According to the New York Times, at her next parole hearing her lawyer, Lord Longford, argued Myra was reformed. He said, she may have done evil things, but which one of us have it? Okay, seems like a strange argument.

Yeah, I mean, you're really going to compare her evil things against some people's wrongdoings? Yeah. I have never killed a child or help lure a child to their death, haven't buried them, covered it up, lied about it. I haven't done any of those evil things. Right. You're going to use that to compare against others? No.

But I don't know if Myra really wanted to get out. I mean, she did want to get out, but there was definitely some danger for her outside of prison. a mother of one of the murdered children told local reporters that she would kill Myra if she ever got out. The reporters asked Myra about it and she responded by saying, I know I could be out one week before someone assassinated me. But at least I would have had a week of freedom. Okay. I guess that's one way to look at it. Yeah.

Her parole application was denied. Myra made an appeal in 1997. it was rejected and it was at that point that the judge told her she would never leave prison. Just go ahead and get comfy because you're going to be staying here forever. Yeah. And I, to be honest with that, whatsoever. Yeah, she could have stopped what happened, right? She could have got a hold of the police and made sure that nothing happened after the first one.

She could have went to the police probably before the first murder occurred. Yeah, she could have done a lot of things. Now, some people will argue, was he really blackmailing her? Was he really threatening her and her family? I don't know. It seems like that came out much, much later many years after the fact. Was that a ploy to try to look better when it came time for her next appeal? I don't know. You know, it's kind of one of the mysterious parts of this case. She definitely had an opportunity to do the right thing, though. Yeah, I would agree with that. The opportunity was there. I want to go back to this woman who said that she would murder Myra if she ever got out.

I wonder how many parents of murdered children feel that exact same way. I wonder if I would feel that way. I would say you would. Yeah, I think I might. Number one, because you know I don't forgive well, even on small. things. Yeah. Now you're talking about someone who has murdered my child.

Yeah. If I'm not a forgive and forget type of guy over smaller petty things, don't think I'm getting over that one ever. Right. And I worry that that kind of hatred and animosity would eat me up inside. And I might do something that I shouldn't do. Well, look, anybody hurts your kids, you're going to want to do something back to that person.

That's going to be the initial thought process. Yeah. Now, most people have that thought process. Sure. They just are able to control it. And I would hope that I would be able to too. But I don't blame parents for making that statement and having that thought. Now, once you act on it and you actually do it, you're going to end up in prison yourself.

Right. Because you're breaking the law. but I get the thought. I get the anger and saying it. Ian made his own appeal to Home Secretary Jack Straw. According to the Independent, he said he and Myra were a unified force and that the murders made them closer. He claimed Myra fabricated stories and continued to write him letters in prison.

He made the statement, I instructed both her counsel and my own, to ask me specific questions designed to give the fullest opportunity of providing a cover for Myra. This managed to get her off one murder charge. And I also told her to adopt a distancing strategy when she went into the witness box, admitting to minor crimes while denying major ones. So it's because of him, he's saying, I gave her this legal advice. I told her how to handle the trial.

Yeah, I think at its core, what he's saying is she was much more involved than what she was willing to admit. According to him, that's what I take, you know, from what he's saying, on September 30th, 1999, Ian began a hunger strike after he was moved to the psych ward at the hospital. The nurses discovered a knife that he had made from a bucket handle. He protested his feeding tube and restraints and demanded the right to die. In March 2000, the court ruled that he would be force fed, which I get. They're not going to let you just starve to death. Yeah, you're not going to go out that easy, buddy.

Myra died of respiratory failure on November 16th, 2002 at West Suffolk Hospital. She was 60 years old. She served 36 years of her sins. and at the time was the longest serving British woman in prison. A few hours before she died, Myra handed over her private documents. The documents revealed feelings of hatred between her and Ian and accused him of drugging, raping, and beating her.

But one could ask, did she plant that in there for later? Oh, yeah, I think you can definitely ask the question when those documents are not revealed up front, right, when they're only unveiled, you know, kind of after her death. Yeah, because if you were trying to save yourself from being sent to prison for life, I would think you would want to pull out all stops. Like, look at this journal. It might help my case.

Yeah. Yeah, I agree with you. And obviously, these documents didn't paint a flattering picture of Ian. In one incident that said that Ian ignored her for a week when he found her. out a co-worker he didn't like gave Myra a ride to work. Myra was just 18 at the time. Ian drove her down a country road at dusk and told her to get off his motorcycle. He held a sharp knife and asked Myra if she was planning on leaving him.

She told him no and he warned her to never take a ride from that man again. When they got home, he bit her cheekbone, causing her face to bleed. she tried to fight him off, but he just bit her harder. She referred in the documents to her relationship as Brady's prison. She also wrote that I was so humiliated when he did all the things I've mentioned to me. I had no self-esteem, no self-respect, whereas before I met him, and for the year I worked with him before he made a date with me, I was an attractive, confident, and sociable teenager.

She also claimed that Ian drugged her grandma by putting sleeping pills in her tea. He threatened to push her grandmother down the stairs if Myra didn't cooperate. Ian once sent her to collect books on sexual murder. After reading the books, he demanded to have sex with her. She said no, so he beat her with a broom. Myra would never call out for help because her grandma would try to intervene. She said, I couldn't go to the police about him because there was no proof of anything. And while I feared and often hated him, I was so emotionally obsessed with him.

I just couldn't change my feelings for him. Now, Gibbs, these documents were part of some of her appeals later on. Which is good, but really should have been introduced years ago. I agree. I agree. Her will was dated January 12th, 2000. She wrote that she didn't want to be resuscitated. She didn't want her organs removed and she wanted to be cremated. The Independent announced on October 22nd, 2011, that the police were ending the search for Keith. From 2003 to 2011, the police launched Operation Mado to find Keith's body. but they were never able to locate it.

Just before they ended the operation, they asked Ian Brady one last time for help. And he refused. Now, they didn't offer him any deals. So there was really no reason for him to help other than maybe to do the right thing. But I don't think Ian Brady was the type of guy that really cared about doing the right thing.

Obviously, because if he was, he'd have never done the things that he did. detective chief superintendent steve haywood said this is his final opportunity to come forward and give information he knows where keith bened is but police were advised by experts gives not to take ian to the moors because they said it would fuel his personal gratification sure yeah that was his killing grounds and i think that's absolutely true true because you know you and I have seen how often killers get some type of gratification, sometimes sexual, out of returning to either the scene of the crime or where they buried their victims.

Right. Winnie Johnson passed away in 2016 without ever finding out where her son was buried. In 2013, Ian brought an appeal before a mental health tribunal to get transferred back to a jail. The hearing was described as a circus because he rambled. He gave incoherent answers to questions. At that point, he had been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and narcissistic personality disorder.

Now, he said he was lying about his mental illnesses because he'd perfected method acting. Oh, okay. He was a method actor. He was working on that. But I think most people realized he probably just wanted to go back to jail to starve himself again. Yeah, I agree with that. I also think he was mentally ill. I don't think there's any doubt that he had some of these things that he was diagnosed with.

Sure. Now, could he have developed the ability to mimic the symptoms of these? I guess it's possible. I don't picture Ian Brady being smart enough to, you know, perfect this method acting and really kind of fool everybody. But in the end, he lost the, his appeal. Ian spent his final years extremely sick and in a lot of pain.

You know, he started that hunger strike in 1999 and was basically fed by a tube after that. Yeah. Now, I don't think there's a lot of people out there saying, oh, feel so bad for Ian Brady that he got sick, he was in a lot of pain in his final years. Ian Brady died on May 15th, 2017 at Ashworth Hospital, a high security psychiatric hospital in Liverpool. He died of chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. A few days before he died, he pulled out his feeding tube.

He was 79 years old. Ian's ashes were buried at sea. Allegedly, he requested his asses. to be scattered on the more. Bizarre. It's not bizarre from his way of thinking. No, not at all. I get why he wanted that.

I just think, did he really think they were going to follow? Right. Bizarre, if authorities would have followed through with that request, because you're saying, I want to be back with my victims? No, no. I'll dump you off the side of a dingy,

and that's what you get. What I did find interesting was that, He had that one request about his two briefcases. Yeah, it's been reported that just before he died, he ordered two locked Samsonite briefcases to be taken from his bedside and handed over to his attorney. He insisted that they couldn't be opened until after his death. The problem is, I don't think anybody knows what was in the briefcases. So either there wasn't anything in there worth.

Reporting on? Reporting on. Or his attorney thought that whatever was in there was so nasty or incoherent or damaging to the victim's families that it was never released. It needed to go ahead and die along with Ian. Yeah. So that's my way of thinking on that subject. You know, as we wrap up this case gives to this day, Myra Henley and Ian Brady are some of the most

hated people in Britain. And there still is a lot of debate about Myra. We talked about it up front. You know, this question of, was she born a killer or was she groomed by Ian to become his accomplice? I lean towards the latter. I do not think Myra Henley was born a killer. I don't think so. And there's a big part of me gives that thinks if she never meets Ian Brady, her life is completely different. Now, there's no way for me to know that. That's just what I kind of believe. I think you can make the argument a couple of different ways. But I think you can make my argument because up until she meets him, her life seems to be fairly normal.

right we didn't talk about her torturing animals we didn't talk about her doing you know a lot of bad things yeah she had an alcoholic father who beat her but that in and of itself is not going to cause you to necessarily harm people in the future a lot of people have had that and turned out you know just fine it really seems that everything turned when she met Ian Brady And she developed this obsession with him. And it was really like she was willing to do anything he wanted, as long as she could be with him, as long as he wanted her by his side. I think between the two of them, Myra and Ian, Ian was much more likely to become a cold-blooded killer.

I think he had that in him. And I think he just, you know, started to groom Myra. and took her along with him. I'm not downplaying her involvement because she had a ton of culpability. I mean, she really did some things that she shouldn't have done and she paid the price for those. I guess my argument is would she have done it

if she never met Ian Brady? That's a tough question. It really is. No doubt he was a bad influence and he used her obsession with him to make her do things that I don't think she would ever have done. But she did it because she wanted to satisfy him. Yeah, I think that's true.

I think he used her because he knew she wanted to please him so much and was willing to do anything that he wanted to do. Yeah, I mean, he tested her right from the get-go with, hey, you're going to be the getaway driver, and she got her license, she got the guns. She was willing to do, and he saw that before they even committed the first crime. So then you have to talk about Ian Brady. You know, obviously I view him much different.

I think he had something in him, Gibbs. He had a frog demon. And he was going to be a cold-blooded murder. I truly believe that with or without Myra. He got Myra to go along with him, but I think he would have done it alone. had he never met her. I agree with you. I think he would have either did that or found somebody

that would have replaced Myra to do it with him. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this case has been studied by psychologist and investigators for many decades. You know, that question of nature versus nurture, creating serial killers definitely comes up in this case.

When you look at Ian versus. versus Myra. You can go down that path for sure. But that's it, Gibbs for our episode on the Moore's murders, Myra Henley and Ian Brady. Pretty disturbing. It is. It's disturbing.

It's a, it's a tough case. It's a very well-known case, especially over in Britain. And I mentioned it. You know, these are two of the most hated people in Britain for what they did. The crimes were heinous.

But if you look at, you know, the fact that these. were children. I get it. One was a 17 year old, but still a child. Yeah. And in my eyes and technically in the eyes of the law, I guess, you know, nothing is going to get you hated more than being a, a child killer or someone that hurts children. You're at the very bottom of the list and everyone is going to want to pile on you and take a shot at you if they can. I think there's a lot of people who, would have taken the shot at both Myra and Ian had they been given the opportunity.

I still just can't imagine what the one family that had to listen to that, 16 minutes of recording. Yeah, the last moments of their daughter's life, you know, sickening. We've got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Yeah, let's hear them. Hey, Mike and Gibby. It's Alex here from Brisbane, Australia.

I just wanted to reach out to you guys and say, thank you so much for your podcast. I've been traveling long distances to and from work for the last six months, and I literally no longer listen to the music because of you guys. You really make my day. And I just wanted to ask an interesting question. I started reading a book on Richard Kukkinski and subsequently found your podcast on him.

And I noticed that, Mike, your tone was a little bit different when you first started. You realize you wanted to spice it up a little, or was it because you became more enthused in the podcast? Anyway, thanks, guys. Keep your own time ticking. Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. And again, we have two episodes of Kikklinsky out there.

We do. The very first one was our second episode we ever did. Yeah, you did that solo. I did that solo, which really changed the entire dynamic. Yeah. It was, it was so weird to just be talking myself. So I think that episode probably sounds different than any of the other ones. You know, if you go back later in time, we redid it.

You'll find it. I don't know what number it is. But I wanted to redo it so that you could be on it. So we had, you know, every episode technically. Yeah. Was me and you. Redux. Redux.

Redux. That's what we called it. Kiklinski Redux. Sounds a whole lot better because you get to hear me say. Right. Hi, Mike. Hi, Gibby. So I was just listening to your Howard Elkins podcast. And my name is Raina.

And I've never met anybody else in my entire life with the name Raina. So hearing it from you guys on my favorite podcast ever, just over and over and over again was pretty awesome. And thank you guys for that experience. I really love your guys' podcast. I literally listen to it every single day. And my parents think I'm crazy because I listen to podcasts about people getting killed. And, yeah, I just really enjoy your guys' podcasts. So thank you very much for what you do and keep your own time taking.

Probably not the first way you want to hear your name being said. No, probably not. But you know, you tell your parents that you're doing research. Yeah. And you're learning ways to stay safe. You're learning ways to keep your head on a swivel. You're learning ways to keep your own time ticking. Keep your own time ticking.

Yeah. Hi, Mike and Gibby. This is Taylor Colleen from Idaho. I've been listening to the show for about two months now. I'm really enjoying it. I'm almost done and I'll probably go back through again once I finish it. The job that I work, I can just listen to podcasts and stuff all day. But what's great about you guys is that I can listen to you guys all day every day for

like 10 hours and I never get bored of it. So keep up the good work. I'm probably team Gibby, but Mike really doesn't get enough love. So I kind of feel guilty saying that. But yeah, just you guys are great and keep your own time taken. I guess ever get tired of potatoes out there? I think about all those Idaho potatoes. I'm sure they have other things. There's a lot of potatoes. Every time I get a potato bag from any where it's like from Idaho.

Yeah, but you're acting like that's all they eat out in Idaho. A lot of Irish out there. They have many other things. I'm sure they eat quite a few potatoes too. I always like the callers who say it's almost sheepishly, you know, admitting that their team givey, but they feel bad because, you know, you know, Mike just doesn't get the love. It's all true.

But you're waiting for them to say, so I'm switching over to Mike. No, they don't. It's always a but, but it always ends with team. I'm team Gibby. What can you do, man? It's just the way we roll. It is how it is. All right, brother.

That is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike, and give me. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.