True Crime All The Time - Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka Part 2

Episode Date: August 20, 2018

Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka are one of the most infamous serial killer couples in Canadian history. Bernardo was already a serial rapist by the time he met Homolka. But, the crimes that they would commit together would be even more shocking.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss this infamous duo. Their good looks and the horrific details of their crimes caused their faces to be splashed across all media platforms around the world. In part 2, we delve into the murders committed by the pair.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at www.truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationHelp support our sponsors:Go to simplisafe.com/tcatt to learn about the best deal in home securityHurry to CBS.com/TCATT now for your FREE trial of CBS All Access and don’t miss the season premiere of One Dollar on August 30th.Check out the Dead Air podcast at https://www.serialbox.com/serials/deadairSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 92 of the true crime all the time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike the cowboy Gibson, Gibby, what is going on? Giddy up. Giddy up, man. You're in here in the studio with your wranglers on. I know. Some area boots. I mean, I thought I was the cowboy. All I'm missing is a 10 gallon hat. Or 5 gallon or 10 gallon or 20 gallon. 2.5.5. whatever the normal size is. Whatever you want. Yeah, that's it.

I think all this talk about Rex West has got you kind of fired up into a... Rex West, man. A Western cowboy mood. Rex is here. Rex is in the studio. Rex is going to do this podcast today. All right, Gibbs. We have literally a jam-packed episode.

You know, we're diving into part two of the Paul Bernardo and Carla Hamalka case. And we just can't waste any time. It's jam packed. So let's do some Patreon shoutouts. Okay. We had Christopher Jackson jumped out at our highest level. Thank you. Jordan D. Stefano.

De Stefano. Mary E. Hames. Yeah, thank you. Sarah Jones jumped out of our highest level. Awesome. Lori Lanzasero. Yeah, good one.

Tracy Tilly. Thank you, Tracy. Jen Lawrence. Oh, she's back. She's back, or it's a new Jen Lawrence. The real one. Or it's the real Jennifer. We just don't even know.

Yeah. Drop me a line. Joe's DeRoe DeRoe And I think that name could be said About 67 different ways Probably So I'm just going with that

Right or wrong Let me use one of my accents Do you, would you have any idea Of where it's from? Joe Zizro Okay, so you're going to put the S on the second part of it

Yeah You're just going to move the S from The first part of the name In that country, that's what you do I got you. Yeah, it's called the slide rule Mary Bells. Hey, Mary.

Patty James. Ivy Wynne. Becky Markle. Amelia Lanier. Susan Jenkins. Thank you. Fallen Hoffman. Yeah.

Amanda Tedrick. Awesome. Donna Joplin jumped out of our highest level. Yeah. Travis Hettwer. Paige Comston. Thank you. Darcy Atkinson jumped out of our highest level.

Man, amazing. Cessley Alvestad. Shelby Waters jumped out of our highest level. Thank you, Shelby. Teagan Balitsky. I like that name. That is a cool name. Christine Vang, that's a cool name.

Jacqueline Gebel. Yeah. Jumped out at our highest level. Bridget Helkhoff. Jessica Foster. Thank you. Michael Graney jumped out of our highest level. Hey, thanks, Michael.

So a lot of great support. We really appreciate that. And then if we go back into the vault, Gibbs. Go back. Back to the future. Yeah. We selected Wendy Sanders. Thanks, Wendy.

Wendy's been with us a long time, long time supporter, so we appreciate that. We appreciate all of our new Patreon supporters. All those people that continue to support us month after month, it allows us to keep doing what we're doing. It allows me to sit here. Not in a new chair yet. But we are at episode 92. Yeah. So within the next eight episodes, you will have a brand new chair.

That is my- If my ass holds up. That's why I have no ass. Yeah. It's the chairs. I'm sure. It's worked at the chairs. whittled it down.

But I promise you that. Now, we did have some good PayPal support, too. Kate Balsover. Hey, Kate. Well stacked books. Well stacked books. It's a cool bookstore name. Yeah.

If that's what it is. Sure. Deborah Pfeiffer and Jennifer Murray. Hey, Jennifer. Awesome. And then Gibbs, I want to give a shout out to our Patreon merch winner for July. It was Sam Stephanician. Steffanishon.

I like it. Yep. So Sam gets to pick out. whatever she wants and she already emailed me what she wants so it's on order and we'll be sent right out to her I also want to say Gibbs we got in some new merch today well we did so we got in some true crime all-time magnets yeah pretty cool a little two-by-two like fridge magnets yeah I like that so they are up on the website right now did you just give me one I did not not two you get one I just wanted you to see what it looked like because I hadn't shown it to you yet you're like

Have as many as you want. They're yours to you. I'm like, wait, you're just giving me one magnet. You're like, here you go. You get one magnet and you'll like it. After the show, I want it back. You don't get to keep the magnet, you know. Let me take a video of me giving it to you.

Yeah. But then afterwards, you have to give it back. You guys return it. Yeah. You don't get to keep the magnet. That's cool. So it's out on the website. Yeah, it's out on the website.

Check it out. I'm trying to do a thing where shipping's included, kind of like we do with the stickers. Makes it easy for both domestic. One price out the door. Yeah. And international. It's how I do everything.

Because I think they're thin enough that I can put them in a envelope. Just do it the right. Remember the postal worker? I know. I told you how to do it the right way. So it doesn't slide out like your chest did. You got to tape them to a like an index card. Yeah.

It's like how you tape some other things. Exactly. Yeah. I don't know what that means, but I'll go with it. You know, but we'll leave it along. So at the same time that this episode is out, on True Crime All Time Unsolved, we're talking about the Cleveland torso murderer. We are.

It's a case you've been. wanting to do Gibbs for a long time. And it's one of those fascinating unsolved cases. And of course, again, it's in Ohio because a lot of bad stuff happens in Ohio. I know it, man. We get that a lot. People always like, another Ohio one. What's wrong with you guys? Yeah. It's the winners. It's the winners. There's not much to do here. That's what it is. People get a little bit, you know, stir crazy and bad stuff happens. Or the couple, just a few days in August we're It gets really humid and hot. Oh, that can be bad, too.

That's bad. But only a couple days. It's not a reason not to move here. You can survive. There's plenty more reasons not to move here. All right, Gibbs, let's tell the rest of the story of Bernardo and Hamalca. So I want to recap just a little bit. Paul Bernardo was a serial rapist.

We talked about that in episode one. He became known as a Scarborough rapist. Was questioned by police after Tips started porn. in about him looking like a composite sketch of the rapist, but police didn't think it could be him. After they sat down, after they interviewed him, during the time that he was committing his rapes, he met Carla Hamulka while she was 17 years old, still in high school. They fell in love.

And as the relationship progressed, Bernardo became attracted to Carla's sister Tammy. And that's where we picked this story back. up. By December of 1990, Paul and Carla were engaged and they were planning a wedding for the next year. And he was spending a lot of time with Carla and her family. Her family reportedly liked Paul a great deal. Well, he was a schmoozer. I think he was. I think from the outside or on paper, you would think this guy's a catch. This guy's a, uh, he's a good guy. Caramatic carerumumum. There's a. There's a, Yes in there. Charismatic.

Exactly. But I knew what you were saying. It was coming. Yeah, I think he was. I think it was a salesman. I think he had those type of qualities. But he was keeping a secret from the family. We all have secrets, Mike.

We do. But he had lost his job. We talked about that in episode one. He wasn't an accountant at Price Waterhouse. He lost that job. He started making his money full time by smuggling cigarettes. and alcohol into Canada. The smuggling ring of the world, man.

Cigarettes and alcohol. It reminds me of the old Elliot Ness and Compone, you know, Al Capone was smuggling stuff. I'm aware of the story. From Canada into the U.S. Into United States. Now we're flipping. We're reversing rolls.

Well, you know, you do have to figure where they live in Canada is not that far from Detroit. So when we say United States, you know, It is two different countries, but it's not that far. Just rolling over to Windsor, right? Yeah. You used to go to Windsor for things. I did a lot.

Yeah. They didn't live in Windsor, but it wasn't that far. But the other thing is that his attraction to Carla's sister Tammy started to morph into an obsession. He began peeping on Tammy every chance he got. It's weird. He would sneak into her room at night while she was sleeping. and stand over her and masturbate. Okay, that's gross.

That's gross. I mean, I know people like fall in love with one sister and then they develop like a crush on the other. On the other sister? You know, did you ever have that? No. No. Are you talking about my family now?

No, no, no, no. Do you have, does your wife have a sister? Yeah. Oh, she does? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, were you asking me a hypothetical? Well, like, you know, you dated a lot of women back in the day, you know,

before you were wife. Hey, don't put me in that category. I didn't know if you dated a sister. You're like, ooh, I like the other sister better. So you weren't specifically talking about my wife. No, no, no. No, I never had that situation where I was dating somebody and they had a sister and had a crush on them. Just that one that you fell in love more with the mom?

Yeah, just whoever it was I was attracted to. I remember I had the one girl, but you really liked her mom better. Oh, yeah, yeah, that probably happened. Yeah. Now, Carla would later testify that Paul began pressuring her to help him have sex with Tammy as early as sometime in mid-1990. I mean, just how messed up is that? And a relationship that you, one, it's messed up, period. Two, it's weird enough if he came home and said, hey, you need to help me have sex with your best

friend, you know? But your sister, your 15-year-old sister. Now it's your sister, which would be even more strange, but now that she's, now you say she's 15, that's just even more gross and wrong and just, oh, unconceivable. Yeah. Now, remember, we talked about how upset Paul was after finding out that Carla was not a virgin. That was a big deal to him. Yeah.

He began telling Carla that it was her duty to set it up so that he could take Tammy's virginity by any means necessary. So he's pissed because she's not a virgin. he's out raping and destroying women's lives, getting, having sex everywhere, but he's upset, she's not a virgin. But now he wants to strip some innocent girl of her virginity. Really?

Yes. That is exactly the facts. The dude's not right, man. No, it's going to get worse. You know it is. This is messed up. So Carla began researching what drugs at the vet clinic she worked at would be best at knocking out her sister.

She finally settled on an anesthetic called Halifane and she stole some from the clinic. And like you just talked about, Gibbs, in her mind, is she planning to do this to her own 15-year-old sister? Was she going to help incapacitate her and allow her fiance to rape her? I think you used the word inconceivable. Yeah. I mean, that's from Princess Bride, but I agree. It's a good movie. It's a great movie, and I think the word is perfect here.

It's inconceivable. Yeah, it really is. I guess the issue that I always have is, how do these guys get this type of power over women to making them do things like that? Well, it's one of the questions in this case. There is no doubt about that. Yeah.

But to me, the thought of her, even mulling it over in her head. Yeah, it's so wrong. As if anybody would would mull something like that over and then deciding that, yeah, I'm going to do that. Yeah, I just don't get it, man. I don't know how someone gets so much power over someone that you're in love with somebody so much that you're willing to do that to your own sister. So months of talking and planning culminated on the night of December 23rd. 1990, a couple nights before Christmas, going into Christmas Eve. Paul Bernardo had a new video camera and he was taping the Hamulka family around their house at kind of a Christmas party, a gathering.

There was some drinking going on and later on in the night, Tammy was given some alcohol that had been laced with the sedative. And this eventually caused her to pass out on the couch at a certain. point, you know, it's late. Most of the family had gone to bed. And it's just Paul, Carla, and 15-year-old Tammy. I think they're down in the basement. Paul Bernardo undressed and raped Tammy Hamalca. And he used his new video camera to record the whole thing. Now, while he's doing this, Carla was holding a rag with the halifane. on it over Tammy's mouth. So she was made drowsy by, you know, sedative or sleeping pills,

but it was this halifane that, that they used at the vet clinic that really kind of kept her knocked out. It knocked her out. And I think Gibbs, Carla, at the urging of Paul, even joined in on the rape that was perpetrated against her sister. So, you know, we talked about it. sick. Sick that she's even thinking about setting it up or letting Paul do it or however you want to put it. But she participated in this thing more so than just holding the rag over her sister's face. She did sexual things as well. You know, back to your point, we're going to be asking this question a lot. How did he get her to do this? But then something happened that they hadn't planned on. Tammy got sick and she vomited. Carla tried to clear her airway, but nothing that she did

work. And Tammy died. So the pair, Carla and Paul, they go into self-preservation mode. They dressed Tammy and began to clean up. And they vacuumed the area. They ran some things through the laundry. But I guess everybody was asleep. They were in the basement. No one else in the house really heard or, you know, took notice of what was going on. But it was after they did all these things, they called 911. At the time of Tammy's death, the coroner concluded that she had choked on her own vomit and the death was ruled an accident. This was despite the fact that there was a red mark on her face that appeared to be some type of chemical burn. It couldn't be explained. But really the, you know, the activity of Paul and Carla that night was never questioned.

And their story really wasn't questioned. You know, police took their story at face value and they thought, okay, maybe she had a little much to drink. She got sick and her sleep and that's what it was. Because that does happen. Yeah, it does. But that's not what happened in this case, but police bought that. Unbelievably horrible.

They sexually violated and caused the death of a 15 year old girl. who also happened to be Carla's sister. Now something that will be talked about later on in the media and by people around the world, just like you and I are starting to talk about it, is just how much of a willing participant was Carla Hamalca. Because she's later going to try to say that she did all this to please Paul and she would go as far as to say she did it because she was afraid of Paul. and what he would do to her,

but there's an incident that happens after Tammy's death that makes it pretty tough for me, Gibbs, to believe much of what she says. And this incident involved Carla dressing up in some of Tammy's clothes, putting a picture of Tammy over her face while she and Paul had sex. She was pretending to be her dead. sister. That's so disturbing. While having sex with her fiance, while they recorded the whole thing on video. Now, keep in mind, these videos are going to come back to haunt them in a big way. So it's important that we talk about,

you know, what was recorded on video. But you're right. To say that she was coerced and maybe she was in some former fashion, but I just, I just don't know how then later on after your sister's dead, you say, you think it's a good idea or you're going to go along with the fact of dressing up in her clothes, putting a picture of her on your face to make Paul think it's Tammy. It's way out there. It's disturbing. In February of 1991, Paul and Carla moved into a rented house in St. Catharines. This was a big reason for the fact that the rapes in Scarborough came to an end. And basically because Paul Bernardo was no longer living there. But even though they moved in together, Paul was not happy with Carla. Tammy, who had been his sexual obsession, was dead. And he blamed Carla. But Carla was so eager to

please Paul and keep him around that she said about trying to find a young girl to take Tammy's place in Paul's eyes. I can't even believe I'm saying some of these things as they are fact. somebody actually did these things. Yeah. It's hard to imagine. It's unbelievable. But she finally decided on a teenage girl that she had met a few years ago while working at a pet shop.

So on June 7th, 1991, Carla invited this teenager out for dinner. They talked and they eventually ended up back at Paul and Carla's new house. But Carla drugged this girl, gave her some alcohol that was. laced with Halcyon and knocked her out. It was at that point that Carla called Paul and told him about what she called his present, which was this young girl. She placed a halithane soaked rag over the girl's mouth just as she had done with her sister. But again, this wasn't just Paul. It was both Paul and Carla who sexually assaulted this teen as the, as the same. As a they videotape the whole thing. Now, Paul was extremely brutal. He penetrated this girl both vaguely

and anally. When she woke up the next morning, she was extremely sick to her stomach and she was very sore. But she had no recollection Gibbs of what had happened to her the night before. Because of the medicine. This drug had knocked her out. You know, she thought that she, you know, had something to drink, drank too much and couldn't remember what happened to the point where when she met Paul Bernardo that day, she thought she was meeting him for the first time. Jane Doe, as she would later be called in the trials later on, would survive this encounter with Bernardo and Hamalca. And that's saying something because there are going to be teenage girls just like this Jane Doe that don't survive this same type of interaction. She was lucky that it went down the way it did. Even though I'm sure it was

horrible for her and what happened to her was a travesty, the fact that she lived through it was a good thing. Because not much more than a week later, Paul Bernardo abducted a 14-year-old girl named Leslie Mahaffey in the early morning hours of June 15th, 1991 from the town of Burlington. Leslie was locked out of her house. And I think it was early in the morning. She had failed to come home the night before she missed her curfew. And her parents locked her out of the house. Apparently they were pretty strict with her.

But strict in a weird way, though. Well, but she, I guess she, from what I read, she had done this a lot. You know, she was causing some trouble. She was drinking. She was staying out late, partying. and they felt like they had to kind of get a little tough with her. And unfortunately, they chose to do it this night. They locked her out of the house.

And she went to go see a friend, tried to stay at a friend's house. And the friend said, no, my mom, you know, was not having it. So she goes back home and she's looking for a way to get into the house without waking up her parents. But this is when she encountered Paul Bernard. who apparently was in the Burlington area stealing license plates. Because this is, this guy's an all-around good guy. He's stealing license plates. And this is something he did routinely so that he had a stock of bogus plates to use

in his smuggling business, right? Driving back and forth over the bridge from Canada to Detroit and back. but he pulled a knife on this young girl, blindfolded her and put her in his car. Then he drove back to the house that he shared with Carla. And when he got home, he and Carla would again videotaped themselves, torturing and sexually assaulting this young girl. And this videotape would later be played at trial.

And on the tape, Bernardo says to Leslie Mahaffey, quote, two hours are going to determine what I do to you. And this video is nightmarish, as are all of them, with Bernardo brutally sodomizing this young girl as her hands are bound behind her back. And she's screaming in pain. I mean, it's enough. And I think you already are. You're getting pissed off. It's enough to piss you off because you can visualize this very easily. Yeah. And it's not a good thing to have a- I'm getting sick to my stomach.

Yeah. It's not a good thing to have roaming around in your head. Leslie Mahaffey would die the next day. But how she died depends on who you believe. Both Paul and Carla would claim that it was the other that ended Leslie's life. And what they do agree on is how they disposed of her body. Bernardo used a power saw to cut up and dismember. Leslie Mahaffey and they took her body parts and put them in cement.

And then over numerous trips, they deposited these cement blocks into a lake south of their house. But I think they made the blocks too heavy, Gibbs. And one of them in particular was so heavy, they couldn't get it into the lake. And even the other ones were said to have been pretty shallow, right? they didn't drive across a bridge and dump these off a bridge. They tried to put them in the lake from the shoreline. They were very heavy.

Yeah. Once that, you know, cement set up. And it was on my birthday, June 29th. Wow. That the blocks were discovered and the police were called in. When it was all said and done, they found seven blocks of cement that held the body parts of Leslie Mahaffey. She was identified by her braces through orthodonic records.

There were two champagne glasses on the dining room table, and we had these really expensive champagne glasses from France, which we never used. He had those out. The two of them had been drinking champagne from those glasses. That was really mad. And then she took a breath, and that freaked me out even more.

He should have slapped me in the face because I was really hysterical then. So he went over to her and he did the same thing. He strangled him more. And I think I watched that time. I was like, what the hell she's dead anyway? So that is Carla in some snippets that I put together from an interview. Yeah. But I think what to take away from it.

First of all, I wanted everybody to hear her voice. But it's really that last part. You know, now she's saying that Paul strangled Leslie. But then she says, I watched it. What the hell? What the hell? Like, that's her cavalier attitude. She was dead anyway. She was dead anyway. She was dead anyway. She was going to die anyway. Either way. You know, that's, that's kind of her attitude. What was the thing about the wine glasses? So apparently they had some expensive wine glasses that they had gotten from France, I think. And she was upset that Paul and Leslie were drinking from the champagne from these champagne glasses. That's what got her upset. Yeah, that's what she was saying. She was upset.

She was upset about somebody drinking out of her expensive champagne flutes or glasses. Sure. But not him strangling. No, because what the hell, right? Yeah. At that part. Yeah, yeah. Don't use my champagne glasses.

Yeah. But what the hell? Just want to just get that, you know. It's a perfect thing to point out. Look at the two ends of the spectrum of that. Upset about the champagne glasses. Saw that she was being strangled. What the hell?

How dare you? Use my champagne glasses. Oh, hey, let me know, baby. Baby, when you're done, let me know when you're done killing her and I'll help you clean up. These people are something else. Yeah. Beyond believe. Wow.

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That's CBS.com slash T-Cat. Now, I mentioned that June 29 is my birthday. Yep, every year. Every year I mention it. It also happened to be the day that Paul and Carla got married. So the same day... Sorry about that. Yeah, sorry about that.

The same day that Leslie Mahaffey's body is found, they're at a church getting married. in what was reported to be an extremely lavish ceremony. They had a white horse drawn carriage. I mean, they had the whole nine yards. It was a fancy, fancy wedding. Did he let her wear a white dress? She did wear a white dress, which many people now make fun of.

Yeah. The fact that she wore white. But it was said that Paul controlled every aspect of the wedding from the dress that she wore. how she did her hair to what was on the menu. He even made sure that their wedding vows included the words love, honor, and obey. Me. Yes. Yeah.

He reminds me of that. Remember that movie with Julia Roberts and... Sleeping with the enemy? Yeah. The one that they start off on the beach. Yeah. And she swims her way in the shore and has to... Where everything has to be perfect.

Yeah. The labels have to be turned. Yeah. Yeah. reminds me of that kind of guy. Yeah. This guy was, there's no doubt,

Paul Bernardo was a very controlling individual. Yeah. And just like the guy in that movie, you know, he had a lot of rage. Yeah. When things didn't go exactly as he wanted him to go.

Yep. I just thought it was strange that the guy's so controlling that he was so into the minutia of the wedding, right? My biggest thing was making sure I got there on time

because I was so hungover probably from the night before at the bachelor party. Yeah. You know, the hairstyle that my wife chose was not on my radar. Least of your concerns. Yeah. Whatever she chose was great. She looked fantastic.

Do I have the ring? And can I get their own time? Yeah. And can I make sure I don't throw up why I'm standing up there? And can we find Doug? Because at that point, we had lost Doug. You're like, Doug, where's Doug? He ended up being on the top of the hotel.

But we found him. Yeah, but you found him. And it's weird that you had that same. thing that happened to that movie. Well, it was based off of, see, I mean, I'm much older. Yeah. Oh, that way, you wrote it. Yeah, well, no, I didn't write it. It's based off of my life story. Of your life story. Well, I was Zach Galfanakis, though. Oh, you were Zach. Yeah. So you're the guy that roofied everybody. Yes, I was. Now, let's get back to Paul and Carla. They're married. And after the marriage, they take a little break. Maybe. For what they end up getting convicted for,

they take a break. We're going to talk about some cases later on that they have. a connection to that happened during this time frame, but I'll talk about them later. It's not until April 16th in 1992 that 15 year old Kristen French was abducted while she was walking home from Catholic school. Kristen was a figure skater. She was attractive. She was very popular in school. This is one Gibbs that there is no doubt. Carla played a pivotal role in disabduction. Paul and Carla spotted Kristen walking and they pulled their car into a parking lot. Carla got out with the map and she asked this girl for assistance. And it was while Carla was distracting Kristen with the map and asking her questions that Paul snuck up behind her with a knife

and forced her into the car. Carla jumped in the back seat with her and. And, and, you know, and And to keep her under control, she grabbed her by her hair and pulled it down against the seat. So she was literally holding her down by her hair as they're driving. Now, Carla would later say that her participation was coerced by Bernardo, who was holding the death of her sister Tammy over her head, as if he was going to, what, tell her family maybe? but doesn't that implicate him? I would think it would. I don't know. I think I'm jaded, Gibbs, a little bit,

just because of all the stories we've done and the things that we know. But I have a hard time, and I think most of the listeners will too. I don't think there's many people that will take the side of Carla Hamulka. She's not a sympathetic character, even though she tries to make herself out to be one.

Kristen French arrived home every day around the same time from school. And when she didn't on this day, her parents were immediately worried. They called the police who began to look for her. And they pretty quickly found some witnesses who had seen what happened to Kristen in the parking lot. And they also found one of her shoes. So I think from the very beginning they knew or thought something serious had happened. This wasn't a I chose to go to the arcade instead of going home scenario. Now, was Easter weekend, so a long weekend.

Over the next three days, Paul and Carla committed every imaginable indignity upon this poor girl. It was rough, Gibbs. There's no two ways about it. They brutalized. They tortured, raped, and sodomized Christian friends. over a period of several days. There are reports that Bernardo urinated on her. That's gross.

And tried unsuccessfully to defecate on her as well. Much of this, again, they captured on video. Now, why do you capture something on video? They're watching it doing playback, man. Right. So you can watch it again later on. Now, normally it's a memory like your kids playing ball or a dance recital. It's no different to them.

Yeah, I don't know if they're watching it back to he's jacking off to it or he's playing it back to critique what he did or didn't do right, you know? Who knows why he's doing it. It's sick, though. But either way. She's watching it too. Yeah, but either way, this is what they're doing. They're using it for something to keep the memory of what they have done so they can

relive it again later on. Kristen had never been blindfolded from the time that they abducted her in the parking lot. So both Paul and Carla knew from the very beginning that they would never be able to let her go. And just like in the murder of Leslie Mahaffey, the pair had different versions of how Kristen died. But what they do agree on is that she was murdered, just before they set off for Carla's parents' house to eat Easter dinner. So we have spent three days doing horrible things to this 15-year-old girl. We murder her and then we get in the car to drive to the in-law's house for dinner. Like any other holiday.

Paul's version was that Carla beat Kristen. as she tried to escape and that Kristen was strangled by a cord that was already around her neck. So in his version, they had her tied up by the neck. And she strangled herself. Carla insists and testified at trial that Paul strangled Kristen while Carla sat there and watched. I actually probably believe Carla's version on that one a little bit more. Yeah. The body of Kristen French was discovered two weeks later.

on April 30th in a ditch in Burlington. She was nude, but her body had not been dismembered. The body had been washed and her hair had been cut off. And I think Carla would later say that she thought this was a way to help to keep police from identifying her by cutting her hair off. Doesn't make any sense to me. I mean, yeah, would it make it just a little tougher? Maybe.

But why would you even take the chance of cutting someone's hair getting their DNA? Right. You're going to have hair everywhere. It doesn't make sense. But nothing they do make sense. No, no. Right. You can't make sense of these two people.

In the beginning, the police are not going to put these two murders together, right? The murders of Leslie Mahaffey and Kristen French, Leslie had been dismembered, Kristen was dumped in a ditch. They don't put any similarities with these two. too. But during this period of time when the murders were committed, right, they hadn't been married all that long, but their relationship was going downhill. Paul was beating Carla on a regular basis. And the beginning of the end came when Paul flew into a rage and beat Carla with a flashlight in January of 1993. And I'm not talking about some little flashlight. I'm

talking about one of those, I think probably one of those big maglites. Yeah. She had a couple of those like desal, yeah, desal batteries in it. Decell battery maglites. You can see pictures of her. She had like two black eyes. She was beat pretty severely and it put her in the hospital. And her family came to her aid. And after her stay in the hospital, they got her out of that house that she shared with Bernardo. But let's not forget, Gibbs. At this point in time, They have no idea that their daughter was involved in the death of their other daughter. Their own daughter, yeah. They're just trying to help her.

Like any parent would. Sure. In that moment. It was also around this time that Paul changed his last name from Bernardo to Teal. Apparently, something that he lifted from a movie about a serial killer. Now, the police were probably getting closer and closer. to him. He probably thought that was a good idea to change his name, but I'm going to keep calling him Bernardo, namely because it would be confusing for me to change at this point. To teal? To teal.

Yeah. But also because I hate this bastard. Right. Not going to do him no fail us. No, I'm not going to give him the satisfaction of calling him teal. I'm going to call him Bernardo. Can we just call him dickhead? We could call him dickhead too if you want. All right. But like I said, I think police were closing in on him as the Scarborough rapist. And at one point, they interviewed both Paul and Carla. And they actually tell Carla that they think Paul is the Scarborough rapist and that it was just a matter of time before they arrested him. So I think Gibbs, the Toronto Forensics Lab finally got around to testing Paul's blood.

We talked about that in episode one, right? They had a huge backlog. So I think they tested some samples that they had before. I think they took some new samples too when they interviewed him, some saliva samples. And through this testing, they're going to figure out that he's a Scarborough rapist. But in this interview with Carla, they're also very interested in a watch that Carla had on that looked very similar to the one that Kristen French had been wearing when she went missing. So things are not looking good for either one, right? Paul or Carla, and Carla knows that everything is crumbling.

So she gets a lawyer and she starts talking to police. And pretty quickly, she worked out a plea deal that, among other things, exempted her from charges in the death of her sister. The agreement allowed her to plead guilty to manslaughter in the deaths of Leslie Mahaffey and Kristen French in exchange for her testimony against Bernardo. But at the time she struck this deal, or I should say Gibbs, at the time authority struck this deal with her, they didn't have all of the facts. Number one, they didn't have the incriminating videotapes that showed what both Paul and

Carla did because Paul had hidden the videotapes and a light fixture in their house. And police didn't find them when they did this extensive search of the home. Wow. And it says, I think they were in there for a couple of months, six weeks, 60 days. I don't know. They were in there for a while. They found a lot of things, but they didn't find the videotapes. And what happened was that when the search was over, when they had left the house,

Bernardo threw a telephone call, told his first defense attorney, a guy by the name of Ken Murray, where to find the tapes. And the guy went and got him. So he had all of these videotapes with all of this unbelievable evidence on him. Yeah. In his possession. But Carla knew about the tapes. And she told police.

And they started pressuring this Ken Murray, this attorney. But he held out for 15 months. Wow. Held on to these videotapes. Then finally turned them over to the prosecution and promptly dropped out of the case. Well, he probably knew they'd eventually get them. And did you want to be associated with that? No, I'm not, I'm not sure why he held on to him for 15 months.

Yeah. Maybe he thought, who knows what he thought. Maybe he had a responsibility to, I don't know. But like I said, authorities didn't have those at the time that they struck this plea deal with Hamulka. And later on, people are going to be very upset about this deal. Oh, and still are. And it still are to this day. So Carla has told them everything. And based on the information, authorities make the decision to exhum the body of her sister, Tammy. They conduct a second autopsy. And during that, they found traces of the drug Halcy. And this lined up with some of the things that Carla had told them. But inside the coffin, Gibbs, they also found notes. And I think they're important. I want to read this.

Paul's note read, My dearest little sister, words cannot express the deep sorrow and regret that I now feel. You gave me your love and trusted my heart in a way that no one else ever could. I love you, Tammy. I always have and will. I miss you so much and my life will never be the same now that you're gone. If I ever caused you any harm or pain, Tammy, please forgive me.

I only wanted the best for you, just for you to be happy and to experience the joys of this world. That's the biggest crock of shit I ever heard in my life. That's unbelievable, man. I mean, it is. I wanted to read it word for word. Yeah. Because every word is a load of shit. Now, paired Carl is down a little bit, but one of the lines in her note said, I cannot say everything I want to say.

you know how I feel about everything. All my love, your big sister, Carla. I cannot say everything I want to say. Yeah, like I can't say I drugged you like my... I can't put in a note that somebody might read that I had a hand in your death. So Bernardo was arrested in February of 93, charged with 43 counts of sex offenses in his hometown of Scarborough. Then later in May, he was arrested.

would be charged in the deaths of Leslie Mahaffey and Kristen French, along with a whole host of counts Gibbs related to, you know, the depravities that we talked about that took place prior to the murders. But I want to go back to the testing, right? It's 1993. How many years earlier could they have stopped Paul Bernardo? This is the question that many people are going to ask throughout this trial as the facts come out because they had the evidence. It was just a matter of processing it. It's extremely likely, I mean, it's almost 100% positive that had they identified him back then, Tammy, Leslie, and Kristen would have never been killed. And that's tough. It's tough to think about. So we talked about the search of the house. They didn't find the tapes. But what they did find,

was a description of every single Scarborough rape that had been written and documented by Paul Bernardo. So this guy is just laying them out a roadmap saying, hey, here's everything I did in great detail. And I think we mentioned it in the first episode, but the trials of Carla Hamulka and Paul Bernardo would be front page news across the world. But I also mentioned, mentioned that many people in Canada had trouble getting all the facts from their own media. Yeah, they really did. Now, one reason for that was a publication ban that was issued during the trials. This meant that the media couldn't divulge some of the salacious details that came out in the trials.

They couldn't talk about any of the details surrounding the death of the death of the, of Tammy Hamolka. Now, one reason given for the ban, especially in the first trial, which would be Carlos, was that they didn't want to taint the jury pool for the later trial of Paul. But apparently Gibbs, they had, there were a lot of Canadians that were driving into Detroit, driving to Buffalo to get their newspapers. And then returning home with a whole bunch of them selling them to their fellow Canadians, even though technically they could have been prosecuted for that. It's just shocking to

think about in today's world, in today's new cycle, having something this big happen in your town and you really don't know everything that's going on because it's almost like a media blackout. That was one thing I really wasn't aware of about this case until... How severe that was? Yeah, how severe that was until I really started researching it. So Carla's trial, as I mentioned, is going to be first. And it's coming up. But in March, before her trial, she underwent a psychiatric evaluation.

And it was during this period that she wrote a letter to her parents about Tammy. And it said, Dear Mom, Dad, and Lori, this is the hardest letter I've ever had to write. And you'll probably all hate me once you read it. That might be the understatement of the year. both Paul and I are responsible for Tammy's death. Paul was in love with her and wanted to have sex with her. He wanted me to help him. He wanted me to get sleeping pills from work to drug her with.

He threatened me and physically and emotionally abused me when I refused. No words I can say can make you understand what he put me through. So stupidly, I agreed to do as he said, but something, maybe the comment. combination of drugs and the food she ate that night caused her to vomit. I tried so hard to save her. I am so sorry, but no words I say can bring her back. I would gladly give my life for hers. I don't expect you to ever forgive me for I will never forgive myself. So imagine the family finding out that their own daughter had a hand in their other daughter's death. You know, it's like two tragedies.

First, they lost their daughter. Yeah. Then they technically are losing their other daughter, finding out that she had a hand in that death. But again, in the letter, she is putting it all on Paul Bernardo. And you know, Gibbs, you and I never make light of physical, emotional abuse. And I do believe there was some of that involved here from, Paul Bernardo directed at Carla Hamalka. But to put the entire thing on him, I just don't think you can do it.

You know, I do agree he was coercive. He was probably threatening. He probably did do some things like that. But to do all the things that she did, I just don't think you can put it all on him. No way. No, not at all. She definitely has responsibility. Yep, there's no doubt.

She was sentenced to 12 years in prison. prison on two counts of manslaughter in the deaths of Leslie Mahaffey and Kristen French at her trial, which began again, Gibbs, on June 29th. That's a bad day. On my birthday. In Canada. 1993. Yeah.

But again, this is what she had worked out in her plea deal. And she really did a masterful job in the timing of it, right? She got this plea deal worked out before authorities. really knew everything she had done. But by the time they knew it all, it was too late. You know, the plea deal was set in stone. Now all she had to do was come through with her testimony against Paul. Paul's trial began in Toronto in 1995. So they had to move it to Toronto. It was just too big. You know, they talked about the fact that there were 118 seats available each day of the trial to the public.

And people were sleeping overnight in front of the courthouse to try to get in. It's like a chick filet opening. Like a chick filet opening. People staying out all night just to get those little chick filet passes. Like me, when I used to hang out in front of Ticketmaster overnight to get tickets to go see Jimmy Buffett. That says a lot. That says a lot about me, but I did.

Yeah. Back in the day. But it was a spectacle. There's no doubt. From 9 p.m. last night, the curious began lining up in front of three. 61 University Avenue hoping to be one of just over 100 to get into courtroom 6.1. It's the first day of up to two weeks of testimony by Carlo Hamoka against her ex-husband, Paul Bernard. As a 19-year-old female, I feel that I'm just as affected by this as all the other young ladies,

because it could have been me or my friends, and of course I want to be here. I want to see that guy go down. I don't care what it takes. If you came after 2.45 a.m., you did not get in today. Those that did were anticipating a confrontation between the estranged She walked in. She was very, very timid, very shy. It was very unpredictable what actually was going to take place. I was looking for a confrontation between Paul and Carla. Part of me was curiosity. I really wanted to see the reaction of Carla and Paul. It's been two years since they've seen each other. And I also wanted to see the justice is being served, but which I ask myself every day is and it's not. No way. Carla spent 17 days on the witness stand in Paul's trial. 17 days. It's a long time on the witness stand. Most trials don't even last 17 days in total. She told the jury how Paul Bernardo had beat and sexually abused her.

She went into the details of what happened to her sister on Christmas Eve, 1990. She also told the jury how Bernardo made her participate in the crimes that occurred later by playing on her fear and guilt of her sister's death. She said on the stand, quote, I felt he had this major horrible thing to hold over my head. I didn't feel I had a choice and he knew it. She testified that he kidnapped Leslie Mahaffey and Kristen French off the street. She said that he sexually assaulted them and forced her to participate. Then he strangled them both with an electrical cord as she watched.

She told the jury that she was afraid of Bernardo and then, That was the reason why she did nothing to help Leslie Mahaffey as Paul raped her. She also used the same reason to explain why when she was alone in the house with Kristen French, she didn't let her leave. And that's something we haven't talked about. There were periods of time that Carla was alone with Kristen and could have opened the door and let her go. Now, that wouldn't have been good for her. and the reason for that is Gibbs, she participated.

If she hadn't done anything wrong, then yeah, maybe she helps her out. Debbie Mahaffi cried throughout the Hamoka testimony. Hamoka speaking in a flat tone and sometimes shaking, told the court that Mahaffi was blindfolded while she and her ex-husband sexually assaulted her. She said that after the sexual assault, Bernardo began questioning Mahaffi to see if she could identify him. Hamulka said Bernardo began beating the sexual assault.

the girl who kept promising not to tell. She said that at one point, Mahaffi cried out that she wanted to go home and see her little brother again. Amulka said that Bernardo finally decided to kill the teenager. She said that she asked him to reconsider, but he wouldn't. Amolka said that she gave Mahaffi a sleeping pill and a teddy bear to hug just before Bernardo strangled the unconscious girl with a black electrical cord. So the powerful part of that for me gives, and obviously that's a report,

recounting what Carla said, but is the part about this 14-year-old girl, Leslie Mahaffey, begging, pleading to go home so that she can see her little brother. I mean, that just rips at your heart. Yeah, it does, man. That's tough. That's tough. Now, Paul Bernardo was on the stand for almost six days. He admitted kidnapping the two girls for sex.

He testified that he disdivated that he disliked. dismembered Leslie Mahaffey's body with a high-powered saw, put the body parts in concrete, and then dump the blocks of concrete in the lake. And the prosecution was able to produce receipts for the cement that he purchased to encase Leslie's body parts in. So, you know, they had some evidence. Sure. Other than just Carla.

But really, Gibbs, what else did they need besides the tapes? And we'll talk about the tapes in a minute. But the one thing that Paul didn't do is admit to killing the girls. So he admitted to a lot of things on the stand, but would not admit to murder. He said that the victims were alone with Carla Hamulka when they died. And the videotapes. If you could only have one piece of evidence, that's the piece you want. You know, these videotapes showed it all, everything except for the murders.

That's the one thing the videotapes didn't show. They didn't videotape themselves murdering the two girls. But you could see what bad stuff they did do. Oh, you could see horrible things. And they were shown to the jury. You know, they showed Paul Bernardo sexually assaulting the victims as well as Carla Hamulka, you know, inside the home that they shared in St. Catharines, Ontario. And I can only imagine what it must have been like for the jury.

to sit there and have to watch that stuff. Now, the jury and the judge and the people that were involved in the case, they were the only ones that got to see the tapes. But everybody got to hear the sounds. So everybody that made it inside the courtroom could hear the audio. And that was probably enough for them. I would think. I mean, you're talking about screams.

Yeah. cries from the victims that probably reverberated throughout the courtroom. I would think it would have made some people physically ill. Without even seeing it. Yeah. Just hearing the sounds. I agree. Yeah.

But seeing it would have been brutal. The jury that would decide the fate of Paul Bernardo was made up of eight men and four women. And he was convicted of two counts of first degree murder and a whole host of other charges. He was sentenced to two concurrent life sentences, but with parole eligibility after 25 years. Which is the worst thing I could ever think of. Well, there's no death penalty, right, in Canada. So that is the maximum sentence that he could get. But later on, and you'll be happy about this, Gibbs, later on, Bernardo is going to be deemed as a dangerous offender. And this makes his ability to ever get

out almost impossible. So it kind of almost negates that 25-year parole thing, this dangerous offender designation. After the trial, Bernardo's car that was used to abduct the girls was scrapped and the house of horrors that he shared with Hamolka was torn down. So apparently the house had been abandoned since his arrest and people had vandalized it. They had spray painted it. It said, burn in hell. One day, Paul, you'll pay. So I think it was kind of an eyesore, Gibbs.

Not that I disagree with the sentiment, but as a neighbor worried about my property values, that house has got to go. On top of that, the stigma that went along with it, knowing what happened to these young women, this house had to be torn down. And it was, thankfully. Now, I mentioned earlier, there were some incidents that Bernardo and Hamulca are alleged to have been involved in, but for which they were never prosecuted. And these all happened in 1991.

It's alleged that Bernardo abducted a girl in January of 1991, not very long after Tammy's funeral and sexually assaulted her at the Hamulka house, while Carla watched. This is a period where the Hamulcas were out of town. So this was prior to Paul and Carla moving into their own house together. Another incident occurred in April of that year when a 14-year-old girl was distracted by a blonde woman and then sexually assaulted by a man after being dragged to a secluded area. So again, that's also thought that could have been.

Bernardo and Hamalka. Yeah. When the police searched the home that Paul and Carla shared, another thing that they found was a newspaper clipping describing a rape that occurred in Hawaii at the time that they were there on their honeymoon. The MO was very similar. And a lot of people believe that they could be connected to this crime. And then in November of 1991, 14-year-old Terry Anderson disappeared.

Not very far from where Kristen French was abducted. Her body was later found in a body of water the next year. There's really not much connection here to Paul and Carla. It's just the details are very similar. So it's thought that this could have been them as well. Now we have to talk about Carla getting out of prison. She was released in 2005. So she did her whole 12 year sentence.

Yeah. So she did what she agreed to and what the state agreed to. Well, what do you call it up there? Providence. The crown, I think. The crown, what the crown agreed to. Yeah. Yeah, everybody kept up there end of the bargain.

Yeah. I just think that a lot of, most people think that Carla got the better end of the deal is what I think. But when she got out, she was using the name Carla Teal. I don't know what it is with this name Teal that they started, both of them started using. She moved to Quebec. initially her movements were restricted. She was not allowed to have any contact with anyone under the age of 16. She was not supposed to have any contact with criminals.

And she was forced to regularly check in with police. None of that seems out of the ordinary to me. But her lawyer filed an appeal with the court and he was able to get all of those restrictions lifted. Really? So she became free. I mean, truly free to do whatever she wanted, no different than any other free Canadian citizen. She had no restrictions on her whatsoever. In 2006, she tried to change her name from Carla Leanne Teal to Emily Chiarra Trimbley, which I guess Gibbs Trimbley is apparently one of the most common last names in Quebec.

Okay. Which would be a reason for her to want to change it to it to. it sure. Make it harder for people to figure out who she was. Now, she cited the reason for the name change as a way to protect her personal security, but it was shot down in court two different times. She moved multiple times after she was released. At one point, she ended up in the Caribbean.

Really? Mm-hmm. Married? Or the Caribbean. Or the Caribbean. With the pirates. Yes. Of the Caribbean.

Yeah. Or of the Caribbean. But she got married. Did she? She had three kids. Oh. And she eventually moved back to Canada. I'm not going to say congratulations to her.

No, I'm not either. She even tried to help out at her kid's school last year. This was just last year, 2017. But that went over really well. Yeah, something that I don't believe everyone was all that pleased about. Yeah. Is Carla Hamalka dropping her children off at school now that word is out who she is? One parent was very vocal yelling at the media to leave the confess.

killer alone. Well, what has some parents upset are revelations Hamalka hasn't just been dropping off her kids, but on at least two occasions volunteered at the school. Parents want to know why someone with her history was allowed around their children. So I don't know why they allow her. Lawyer Tim Danson represents the families of Hamalka's victims. He says her plea deal should have been thrown out. Hearing her name back in the news, he says, is like a punch in the gut for the families.

If I was a parent at that school, I would be very concerned. I would not want my children anywhere near Carla Hamoka. Says it all. I have to agree with the attorney on that one. Now, on the one hand, she has paid the death that she was required to pay. Probably somebody that negotiated it on the Crown's behalf. Yeah. I get it.

Yeah. I don't think the guy above would be okay with that. Well. But that's what it is. But at least in that clip, there was somebody that was supporting her. Now, all she did was say Jesus twice and clap her hand. Yeah. But she apparently was in support of leaving Carla Hamalka alone.

Yeah, I guess. I think the majority of people in Canada and in other countries... She's just trying to be your friend. Are not backing Carla. I don't believe. People that don't have friends do what they have to to try to get a friend. Maybe she was like trying to get a friend. Clap in her hand.

Are you putting down this lady in the clip? You don't even know her. She's clapping her hand, man. Oh, so people that clap their hands are automatically suspect in your... When they're cheering for that. When they're cheering for somebody like that. But Carla pops up in the news every now and then, right? There's a sighting of her.

She drops her kids off at school. I don't think people had a problem with her dropping her kids off at school. They had a problem with her going into the school and helping out in the classroom. Yeah, yeah, I think that's what it was. I mean, you know, think about this. Worldwide media, you know, internet. Prestige worldwide. He's worldwide.

Eventually, her kids are going to get to the age where they're going to know about what mom did. And they're going to be a conversation that has to be had, you know? That's going to be awkward. It's going to be very interesting. That's a tough conversation, even tougher than the Kim Kardashian sex tape conversation with her kids. Yeah. Because what Carla did is much, much worse. Absolutely, it is.

Yeah. Kim didn't do anything against the last. law as far as I know. You thought telling your kids about you streaking was bad. Yeah. Yeah. They know all about that. I'm like a walking, don't do this.

Billboard. Billboard. Because this is how you'll turn out. Good thing I was a good kid, man. So my kids are pretty straight and narrow because they do not want to end up like dad. Yeah. Dad's messed up. We better not do anything across the line.

Do as I say, not as I did. Exactly. So Bernardo is serving his sentence at the Mill Hill Haven Institution in Bath, Ontario. I wonder if someone is making him, they're a little little puppet. Well, he is a convicted child rapist. Yeah. And we know that usually doesn't go well.

I assume that holds true in Canada as well. Yeah. So I'm hoping he's somebody's puppet. I'm sure not everything's peaches and cream for him. Or peaches and it might be peaches and herb. But in 2015 Gibbs, Bernardo somehow managed to, to publish a digital book on Amazon. I have no idea, number one,

how an inmate period gets that accomplished. Yeah. But then Paul Bernardo, but it's what's in the book that's most troubling. Because apparently it's filled with graphic scenes about violence, you know, beheading people with swords. There's a scene in the book where a woman in a hotel room fakes a sexual assault

by giving herself self-inflicted bruises. Okay. So it's a dark book. Yeah. I just don't understand how as an inmate, you're out there publishing, you know, literary masterpieces. Or anything. Or anything.

Right. I'm sure it's not a literary masterpiece. There was a story about Paul from 2014 about him wanting to marry a 30-year-old Toronto woman who, apparently Gibbs get this, had a tattoo on her ankle that said Paul's girl. So she's a groupie, man. And a classy one at that. Yeah, she's a classy groupie.

Now, I couldn't figure out, I couldn't find out whether it ever came to fruition. But, you know, honestly, I don't really give that. I don't really care that much. Right. My level of caring for Paul Bernardo is very low. I don't care if, you know, mushrooms grow and this guy's crack. I just don't care. Mushrooms in his crack.

Yeah, that's kind of one of my go-to. Is it your go-to? I don't care if you got mushrooms growing out of your crack. Mushrooms could grow in your crack for all I care. Yeah. But this was such a vile case that I think at the end of it, it even had, you know, some Canadians openly debating about whether they should bring back the death penalty.

And that had been abolished in 1976. but I mean people were really riled up about this case, especially when they started to get all the details because that didn't happen, you know, while the trial was going on. Now, they might have gotten them from the United States, but it wasn't as easy back then, right? Remember the early 90s? I mean, you couldn't just hop on the internet and surf, you know, thousands of new sites or jump on your phone and Google Paul Bernardo. It just didn't work like that. You might be able to put something in to AOL.com. I was going to say, you might have AOL.

You'd wait. Here it comes. Okay, I'm going to make a sandwich. Okay, one-third of the pictures there. All right, I'm going to go take a quick little nap and come back and they're half page. Well, we know what you were looking at, pictures. But the words, right. I mean, if you could have gotten something, it would have taken you forever. The advancement that we've made in technology. with the internet. It's been something. Yeah. Now, before we wrap up, I want to talk a little bit about the French and Mahaffey families.

Because in the research, I found something that really caught my attention. Not only did they lose their daughters, right? They each lost a daughter was tragic. But then they found out that tapes of their daughters being brutally beaten. and raped existed. And they didn't like that. They didn't want those to get out. They shouldn't get out.

And nobody would as a parent. But apparently they racked up more than $350,000 in debt trying to fight this battle in court. That's ridiculous, man. $350,000. That's where common sense this comes in. And the, you know, prosecution says, hey, I just need them for the trial. not for anybody else to see, but if we need them, once we get it secured, then at that point, we'll go ahead and let's get these destroyed, you know?

Not let's keep them just in case, you know, I mean, once you know, there's no appeal, or if you don't need the tapes for it, the appeal, get rid of them. Well, even if you keep them locked in the evidence room, that's one thing. Yeah, nobody should ever see or hear those. But the fact that they racked up that much debt. It's crazy. And the taxpayers had to foot the bill. for Bernardo's entire defense.

It's even more messed up. I'm not disagreeing with that part. We have that here and that's fine. I just, when I read that, I just felt really bad for the families of the victims. Not only lost loved ones,

but ended up with this mountain of debt because of what these two monsters did. Yeah. I think someone should have stepped in for sure on a high level and took care of that. But that's it, Gibbs. That is the end of the case of Paul Bernardo and Carla Hamalka.

All right, man. Terrible story. It's a terrible story, but fascinating at the same time. And that's one, you know, one thing we say about a lot of cases. They're hard. Yeah. The details are tough. Yeah, this one made me a little nausea.

Nasiated. Nausea. Yeah. But. Nasha. Again, I think some of these are the ones that people find, you know, fascinating, baffling. How can somebody do something? something like that.

How can somebody go along with somebody else? That does me do way, man. That you can allow someone to influence you so much that you be willing to do that. You'd be willing to allow them to rape your own sister. That's just messed up. Well, we got some voicemails. I think we need a pallet cleanser. Okay.

So let's do some voicemails. Clean the palette. Hey, Mike and Gibby. My name is Kelly Hurst, and I'm from Scottsville, Arizona. I'm obsessed with your podcast, and I am kind of starting in the middle, jumped around, and now kind of working my way backwards. But it is my absolute new favorite, and it's hard to listen to anything else. I have to tell you, though, the Austin Thick episode did make me a little weepy, and I was sitting at my desk at work, so that was pretty interesting. I didn't have to stop and listen to some Pat and Oswald afterwards.

I did want to suggest that we did have a serial killer called the baseline killers here in Phoenix, so that could be a good episode. And I just want to say thanks for all the hard work, and I appreciate everything you do. Keep your own time ticking. See ya. Well, we appreciate that, Kelly. Yeah, thanks, Kelly. And just like we do, Kelly needed a pallet cleanser, a little Pat and Oswald.

But that Austin Sigg episode was rough. That was a rough. It was a very rough episode. It was. Hi, I'm Mention Gibby. It's Claire Collin from Scotland. Just wanted to let you know that I absolutely love the podcast. Got a little suggestion. Fred and Rose West, they committed crimes over a 20-year span.

Also committed crimes in Scotland and in England, as well as actually killing their own children and loads of other people. But if you don't do it, that's okay. They'll still abuse. and just wanted to know that it's my favorite podcast I listen to. I'm a postwoman or your real woman, as you would say. And you definitely get me through my work every day. So thanks very much.

And keep up with good work and keep your own time ticking. Thank you. Oh, I like that very much. And all I can say is freedom. That was so far away from a Scottish accent. It's not a Scottish. It sounds Scottish to me. That was a little bit better.

Is it a better Scottish? No, you're morphing into something very strange. I don't know what it is. But I love that voicemail so much. Yeah. But the accent is what I really love. And I find myself with some of the Scottish and the Irish and the Australian accents so captured by the accent that I almost don't listen to all the words. I'm so focused on how much I like the accent.

I have to go back and listen to it. I get that. When I do it around you, I can see that in your eyes. Yeah, literally, I don't listen to half of what you say anyway, accent or no accent. Whatever. And you know that's true. You know it's good. It's gold, Jerry.

Hey, mine, hey, Givie. This is Jamie from Dallas, Texas. I'm a new listener, thanks to my husband. And honestly, he loves you guys so much. He laughs. He's always talking about the podcast and how funny you two are and how much he loves it. and our anniversary is August 22nd. We'll be married five years, but together 15.

And I just wanted to tell him, hey, thank you for showing me, you guys. I love listening to y'all every week. And I hate to say this, well, maybe I don't, but Team Ghibie. Yay, bye. She hates to say it. Well, maybe I don't. Maybe not. I'll say it anyway.

Well, thank you from Dallas. And a happy anniversary. Three. Now, here's my thought on this, Gibbs. I'm going to lay a little knowledge on you. What kind of knowledge you're going to lay on me? So this relationship is going to last, and I'll tell you why. Okay. If you're with somebody for 10 years before you decide to get married, I think that relationship is going to last. So you're like, we date it for 10 years.

If you're not sick and tired of that person within the first 10 years, I think you're okay. After 10 years, I put a ring on it and get hitched up and doubt it. of style because everything in Dallas is big. Probably wearing like your Ariad boots. Got the boots on. Got some wranglers. Good to go. Well, these people probably have money,

so they're probably wearing real name jeans. Now, what do you mean? You just said earlier on you said 1499 rank. That's just, hey, it's all in the volume, man. They push out a lot of jeans. You're into quantity, not quality. Is that what you're saying? At least I don't have Sam Clubs jeans on, you know.

I just need to get me a big old belt buckle now. I got a couple. I'll loan you. Yeah. Hey, guys. It's Dusty from East Texas. It's nice to see you. It's been a long time.

And you're calling away a 20 voice. I'd love to hear it. Okay, guys. Have a great day. Bye. So this voicemail Gibbs could not have come at a better time. She wants me to say it or sing it? Sing it.

Oh, I don't sing. I don't sing. We've established that you're wearing wranglers. You have on a nice new pair of boots. Yeah. So let us hear a little. Conway Twitty. Well, I won't sing, but what she wants me to say, hello, darling.

You don't know that song? I don't know word for word. So it's hello darling. Yeah, hello, darling. Nice to see you. Nice to see you. It's been a long time. It's been a long time.

All right. From Rex. From Rex West. There you go. It's been a long time. You're just as lovely as you used to be. You know that song. Come on, Gibbs.

So you got Fergie. You know that. You got Fergie to do it. That's old Conway. Hello, guys. I'm ringing you from North London, England. My name is Aubin. I heard of you about a week ago.

And I've been moving house and packing boxes, which is fairly mind-numbing business as it is. And just be nightmares every night. I'm in a great sort of way, of course. Anyway, I'm completely hooked. And I just want to let you know that about 5,000 miles away or something. I'm covered in dust out of cardboard debris

and just having a great time hearing about the most horrific murders I could possibly have imagined anyway, keep up the good work, you're wicked, I think wicked in a good sense and what do you say? Keep your own time ticking. All the best.

So from England. Yeah, I like that. Did you say ya? I say ya, man. Yaw, man. Yeah. Everything morphs into Jamaican. You should just do Jamaica all the time.

Ah, yo. Yeah, man. Because you got that one down. Yeah. You know what? I mean, I was a great. I love that voicemail. Well, we're wicked, which I really think is cool.

Definitely wicked, man. Wicked. Yeah, wicked. It was cool. I like it. All right, we appreciate the voicemails. Let's dip into the mail bag. We got mail?

Yep. Uh-oh. Speaking of AOL. We got mail? We got mail. Laura Richards sent a Harley Challenge coin. Really? So this is not a chip.

It's a challenge. This is a, like a metal. Oh. It's bigger. It's metal. It's from Aruba. Really? It's very cool.

That is cool. And then Sid Waddell sent us a whole bunch of stuff. From Colorado. From her hometown in Colorado. Country biscuit mix, chocolates, honey, and a Harley chip. Really? Yeah. Oh, and apparently in the note, Gibb, she said that when she got her Patreon shout out a while back,

you called her a gambling man. Gambling man. On the Patreon shout out, which her family got a real kick out of and apparently have been calling her a gambling man for some months now. You're welcome. So she wanted to thank you for that. You're welcome. So, you know, she loves you for that. Well, you gambling woman you?

I corrected it. All right, everyone. That is it for another episode of. true crime all the time. So from Mike and Gibby. Ghibby's Wranglers. And my boots. And his boots.

And his boots. And my soon-to-be belt buckle. And his belt buckle. And my 2.5 or maybe a five-gallon hat. I'm not sure yet. Maybe I'll go 10. When your 10-gallon hats feeling five gallons flat. Do I put a strap on it to hold it from flying off my head? I don't think you should put a strap on.

No, that doesn't sound right even the way that came out. How about what's those spurs on my boots? I'm not a big spur guy because I, I'm assuming I would injure myself. Yeah? Just from one hitting my leg. What about the chaps? No, I think chaps are, you know...

Shouldn't wear them anymore? I think if you're going to go cowboy, no. If you're going to do your village people routine that you do with your buddies, you still wear them. Oh, okay. But... But you come to those shows all the shows. I do. I love the shows.

It's like all women and then you. You get me front row seats? I love them. All women and you. Hey. That's what I'm saying. I'm fine with that too. Yeah.

All right, that's it. Another episode of True Crime All the Time for Mike. And I'm Gabi. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.