True Crime All The Time - Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka pt1

Episode Date: August 13, 2018

Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka are one of the most infamous serial killer couples in Canadian history. Bernardo was already a serial rapist by the time he met Homolka. But, the crimes that they would commit together would be even more shocking.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss this infamous duo. Their good looks and the horrific details of their crimes caused their faces to be splashed across all media platforms around the world.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at www.truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationHelp support our sponsor Daily Harvest: Go to daily-harvest.com and use our promo code TCATT to get three items free in your first box!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 91 of the true crime all the time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime Mike Gibson. Gibby, what's going on? Hey man. How you doing? I'm doing great. Yeah. Another week under our belts. We do. Done. Check it off. You mark it off like a calendar or? No, in my head. You just check them, you have your own system in your head. It works. Another week down. Check. And you're like, it's only Tuesday. I'm like, it's done. It's done. that's the other bad thing i talked to gibbs during the the middle of the week and he's like hey have a great weekend i said gibbs it's wednesday i know just want to make sure i got it out there

one less thing i have to say later uh it is so nice though you and i working together again yeah i mean in the same building yeah in the same building and we are kind of working together again yeah we are working on some projects and stuff like that's really cool yeah so i like that so we get to we get to see more of each other at work than we have in the the past couple years. Yeah. Yeah. It's been,

it's been a while. So it's good. Listen, we got a lot of new Patreon supporters. We do. So got to give some shoutouts.

All right, let's do it. At Elizabeth Cloud. Hey, Elizabeth. Jess. Hey, Jess. Paul Redmond. Manda Foster.

Phoebe Hinton. Roya Daw. Roya. Okay. Daniel Gera. Uber chic polish. Uber chic polish. Yep.

Okay. Rachel. Hey, Rachel. Carol. Just Carol. Jess Bernson. Hey, Jess. Matt Thompson.

Hey, Matt. Nikki. Nicky. Jane Dafter. Cool. Greta Soder Strand. Hey, Greta. John Daly.

Jennifer Stoddard. Hey. Lisa Wood Gray. Kelly Simmons, Doreen Woods. Raj Sidoo. Hey, Raj. Diane Colby. Mary Beth Butcher.

Leanne Walts. Kelly Hurst. Holly Hansard. Pip Stevenson. Hey, Pip. Sarah Michelle. How you doing? How you doing?

How you doing? Nicole Avic Poyan. I'm not sure how close I got on that one, Gibbs, but... Pretty close. Madison Paul. Bridget Chang jumped out at our highest level. Brittany Romalo. Angela Loeb.

Natalie Hall. Thank you. Hannah Iverson. Hey, Hannah. Christine Monroe and Amber Deichen. Hey, Amber. And if we go back into the vault, Gibbs, This week we selected Sherry Escobar.

Been with us a long time. We appreciate that long time support. We love it, man. We appreciate all of our Patreon support. The new folks, the people that stick with us month after month, it is awesome. And we also love our PayPal. We do love our PayPal. We had a couple of PayPal donations.

We had Ania Howard. Anea. Ania. Hi, Ania. And Wanda Richland. Well, I appreciate that. We do. We appreciate that a lot.

All right, we got some jam-packed episodes. Jam-packed. Jam-packed. Like, couldn't get it in there any further. It was packed. It's jam. Spilling over. So on TrueCom all the time unsolved, we're talking about Jimmy Hoffa.

We are. It's a big one. It is big. It's a big unsolved case. Where's he at? You know, he's under the giant stadium. He's encased in this. He's buried here.

Yeah, he's in your car. You got shredded up with some. cars with an old car sent over the Japan yeah who knows where he's at it's like trying to find waldo there are a lot of theories about where jimmy hoffa is but for me you know one of the things that fascinates me about jimmy hafa is i lived in detroit yeah you did so i know a lot of the areas yeah you probably know where that restaurant was yeah i know a lot of the areas around where the story takes place yeah it's captivating it is so that's unsolved but but let's get into true crime all time.

We're talking about Paul Bernardo and Carla Hamulka. Yeah, what a couple. Yeah, you could say that. What a couple. This is, I think Gibbs, outside of, you know, maybe Gacy Dom or some of those big ones, this is one of the most requested stories that we've had since we started the podcast. Yeah, I would agree with you. It's definitely been one of those ones where everybody wanted.

to hear about him and her. Yep. Because I think it fascinated a lot of people. There's a couple reasons for that. They were a good-looking couple. They were young. They had a lot going for them. Yeah.

But they were into some really dark stuff. See, to me, it just doesn't matter. I mean, you can, good-looking people kill, too. No, you're right. They do. I just think they get more air time. They do get, you know, they definitely got more air time because of the way they Lord.

I mean, you look at Jody Arias, Casey, Anthony. It just seems like good-looking people tend to hit the media airwaves, just a tad bit more for what they do. They do. I mean, sex sales always has. No, no doubt about it. If you're a good-looking serial killer, you're going to get more air time than, you know, somebody that looks a little rough, unless you look like really scary. So I think, I think that's part of it. But I also think the details. Yeah. The details of what they did, they just astonished people. Yeah. Well, they were Canadian too. Well, they were Canadian. I'm not sure how much that has to do with it. It doesn't. I just like messing with my Canadian peeps.

So you're right, Gibbs. We're in Canada. Yeah. But I know I've been fascinated by this case for a long time. Yeah, you've talked about it. I have. And I think I probably first heard about it on American Justice or one of those shows that I watched when I was younger. I always blame Bill Curtis because, or not blame him. but I'm sure it was one of his shows. But between that and it being such a requested show, I'm not really sure why it took us so long because it was one of the very first cases I wrote down when we started the podcast. So, but here we are.

Here we are. We're doing it, man. In Bernardo and Hamulka, we're talking about a killer couple who are infamous. There's no doubt about that. Not just for the way they killed, but for who they killed. and the reasons behind the murders and and some of the other crimes,

like we mentioned, good looking couple and that along with the details of their crimes, it caused them to be splashed all around the world. Yeah, it really did. Newspapers, television. Now, the funny thing about it is in Canada at the time, and I don't know if it's still like this, but when I was researching this,

most of the details of their crimes could not be broadcast in Canada on either the television or in the papers. That bad, huh? I'm not sure what law or what it was, but there was definitely a lot in the research about people, a lot of people in Canada didn't know exactly what happened until later on. Whereas, you know, in the United States, it was in the papers, it was. all over, you know, the details were there. They've been called the Ken and Barbie killers.

Yeah. Add to that the fact that Paul Bernardo was a prolific serial rapist before and after he even met Hamalka, which is a whole other, when we want to say, it's just a whole another side of, terrible. It's almost like he had two different criminal careers. That's probably not the right word for it. Yeah. But to me, what really captivates people about the story Gibbs is the role that Carla played.

I mean, she not only knew about Bernardo's rapes and murders, but she approved. And she's, man, how do you, let's just tell you how sick she was. I mean, how do you approve your boyfriend, spouse, whoever, okay, go rape somebody? How do you? And not only that, but she helped him carry some of the criminal. acts out, including one of the most well-known, which was against her very own sister. And of course, we're going to get to all that. But there's so much in this case, this is going to be a two-parter. There's no doubt about that. But we've profiled a few of these killer couples. We did the Bernies

out of Australia. We did the Sunset Strip killer, Doug Clark and his girlfriend Carol Bundy. But there are quite a few on the list. You know, Fred and, you know, Fred and, you know, Rosemary West are on the list. When you research it, there are a lot of these cases that involve couples that kill together, a lot more than I would have thought. But as we always do,

let's dive into backgrounds. Because we've got two that we're going to do. We're going to start with Paul, though. Paul Bernardo was born on August 27th, 1964, in the Scarborough area of Toronto, to Kenneth and Marilyn Bernardo. well, kind of. Kenneth Bernardo is listed on the birth certificate, but we'll get into that scandal in a minute. Paul was born into a little bit of money. His mother, Marilyn, had been adopted by a wealthy Toronto attorney.

She was raised in a stable environment, had a good childhood. His father, Kenneth grew up the son of an Italian immigrant who started a successful marble and tile business. So he grew up with a little bit of money as well. But unlike Maryland's situation, Kenneth's father was abusive. So these two married in 1960, Kenneth and Maryland. Marilyn had come out of a relationship with a man that she was in love with. But this was a guy that her father didn't approve of. And we've all been there, Gibbs. I'm sure there were many, many fathers who did not approve of you.

during the courtship of their daughters. You know what? There was a few. There was a couple. There was a few. Yeah, they didn't. They didn't appreciate your sense of humor. My sense of humor.

Maybe. The fact that you were always asking them for money. Well, you know. Hey, I'm taking your daughter out. Can you spot me? Did you give me a salt buck? Yeah. Because that's all you needed back then when you were courting.

Yeah. You could get a filet mignon dinner for five bucks. That's right. No, I'm just kidding. No. I mean, it's a, yeah, I mean, there was definitely some, yeah, I'm a pretty nice guy overall. I would say you are. So, I mean, I, that's why I give you so much.

I went, you know, I did well with most parents, but there was a few, you know, that thought maybe I might be too nice. What's the, you know, what's the end game here? Like, what's behind those eyes? What's behind that sweet, sweet, givey face? Like, he's putting on an act like a serial killer would. Exactly. Like a psychopath. No, I'm just giving you a hard time, but I was always better with moms.

Oh, I bet. The moms liked me. I'm not so sure how much, you know, some of the girls' dads liked me. Yeah. of the conversation. The objective was just to get your date out of the door. Yeah. You know?

That was a success. If you didn't ruin it to the point where the dad was like, now, I think this is over. Yeah. Before. You ever had that happen? No. Not once? No, because I always had them run out the window and meet me, I would park down the

block. But you were kind of a bad boy. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. So Marilyn's father didn't approve this guy. I mean, basically though, not because he was a bad guy, but because he didn't have money. He wasn't educated to the point that Marilyn's father thought he was marriage material. I'll put it that way.

And the marriage of Kenneth and Marilyn was rocky because just like his father, Kenneth was abusive. They had a son and a daughter before Paul came along. But it was after the birth of her first two children. Marilyn is in the middle of this abusive relationship. She has two kids. She turned back to the man that she had been in love with before, marrying Kenneth. The same guy that didn't have the money, didn't have the education that her father wanted for her. She began an affair with this man and eventually became pregnant with little Paul.

So this is how Paul was born. Apparently, Kenneth Bernardo took this in stride. I'm not saying he was happy about it, but he signed his name on the birth certificate and became Paul's father. But this guy had his own issues, Kenneth. He was caught fondling a young girl and was convicted of sexual assault. He was a peeping Tom, wandering the streets at night, looking into windows. and this is something that Paul Bernardo would do as well when he got older. It's been alleged that Kenneth even began to sexually abuse his very own biological daughter.

That's sick, man. I just can never wrap my head around that. I mean, the stuff that you and I talk about, most of it is very hard to understand how anyone could do the things they do. but this especially, I guess it's because I have daughters. It burns me up, you know, thinking about that because I just cannot understand it. But you have to wonder, Gibbs, how much of this Paul knew about. Because eventually he's going to know about it.

He's going to find out about it. Sure. But you have to wonder, you know, how much of it influenced his future actions. Probably a good, good amount of it. it because he's going to do some of similar things for sure now he's going to do much worse that's what he learned there's no doubt that paul bernardo grew up in a dysfunctional household he experienced both physical and emotional abuse his mother maryland spiraled into a deep depression she just stopped taking care of herself and normally as a mother if you're not taking care of yourself you're

probably not taking care of your kids very well she began to rapidly put on weight And it said Gibbs that essentially she started living her life almost exclusively in the basement of the family home. Like that just became her place. Really? And she was down there by herself. So I think the kids at a lot of times were on their own. But Paul Bernardo was described as a happy child. So at least on the outside, he portrayed the image of, you know,

know, this sweet, cute, all-American kid. He did well in school. People described him as polite and well-mannered. He was very active in the Boy Scouts, something that continued through his teenage years. And he had a couple of close friends that were in the Boy Scouts with him. But he and his friends did like to start fires. And we've talked about that before. That can be an indicator of some sorts. It can just be kids too, like him to play with fire. Right. Paul was a good looking kid. We'd grow up to be a pretty good looking guy.

But he drew the attention of all the girls in school. He lost his virginity at the age of 15 to his first love, an attractive blonde named Nadine Brammer. Nadine. Nadine. That was his first love. Most of the girls that Paul dated said that he was shy. and extremely thoughtful.

But Nadine has said some very different things, said he was very controlling, he was overprotective. I guess after they broke up, he became extremely upset and set fire to everything that she had ever given him. And I think she probably had him pegged

because this idea of Paul being controlling, getting very upset, it's going to come up again in later relationships. At the age of 16, Paul got into an argument with his mother. And I guess it got pretty heated. And in one exchange, his mother called him a bastard and revealed that Kenneth was not his real father.

And she produced a picture of his real dad. And Paul was devastated by this. So he didn't find out until he was 16 years old. And from that point forward, his relationship with his mother would not. never be good. He started mocking her. He started calling her names to her face, like bad names, you know, calling her a whore, calling her slob, calling her, you know, fat, things like this. And you go back to the guy that he thought was his father. This guy was a sexual deviant. He started to despise his parents. He thought of his mother as a whore. It's thought by, you know,

a lot of professionals, mental health professionals, that is this incident that probably changed Paul's thoughts about women. So things are not all rosy in the world of Paul Bernardo. But the guy did well in high school. You know, he was intelligent. He was hard working. He apparently worked odd jobs after school from the age of 12. I started working when I was 14. Did you? Yeah, how about you? What was your first job? my very first job well we owned a drive-thru okay so I worked there yeah and then my first job outside of that was at 16

yeah I was trying to think of what it was I don't remember what it was oh I think I worked at Sam's I pulled pulled the carts in oh pull the you're a cart chaser I was a cart guy yeah uh no I started early I mean I mean I had you know paper route and cut grass whatever made money did what I had to put food on the table

you've always been a guy that did whatever he had to to get by that's right had to do whatever he had to whatever well let's see I stress that part yeah thanks for that I'm not afraid of work no you you definitely aren't you're a hard worker but so was Paul Bernardo yeah I'm not I'm not putting you guys together in any way other than that I'm really smart in school too you were very smart in school yeah and just like Paul Bernardo you wanted to make something out of yourself Yes. And he really did. He had a lot of drive. And he had an affinity for business. So he graduated from high school at the age of 17. And after that, he was recruited into Amway. Now, ultimately, Paul wouldn't make a lot of money at Amway, but he did immerse himself into the selling techniques that they taught.

And it's these selling techniques that he would take with him. Using them not only like in future jobs, but in his personal life as well. He started buying up as many motivational books and tapes as he could get his hands on. The guy wanted to be rich and he thought he could use this information to help him get there. And it was during this period of his life that, you know, he's hitting the bars with his friends, going out on a nightly basis. So you got to set the scene, right? Paul Bernardo is a good looking guy. He's self-assured. He's been studying. He's been studying. all of these sales techniques from a variety of experts, you put these factors together and it allowed him to pick up girls at a staggering rate. A good looking self-assured guy

with some sales game. And apparently he is, that's a dangerous combination, man. Really? I mean, think about it. For good and bad. It can be dangerously good for you to succeed in life. You can also use it to do some bad things. If you're a good salesperson, you're confident, good looking. Yeah, you can definitely go out there and break some hearts. You can make some legitimate money.

You can be a con man. You can do all kinds of things. Sure can. But it was said that he and his friends would go out on the town. They would make up like backstories for themselves to kind of embellish where they were in life

to make it even easier. to pick up women. So I'm thinking Gibbs of one of your favorite movies, Wall Street. Yeah. Little Gordon Gecko, Bud Fox. Yeah. Now, you can't really compare Bernardo to Charlie Sheen. Well, you can a little bit.

Not to the extreme, right? A couple of good looking guys. Charlie Sheen did have his downward spiral. But Bernardo is going to be much darker, obviously, than anything Charlie Sheen ever did. Yeah. Not saying something because he did some crazy stuff too, but nothing like Paul Bernardo. Nothing. So Paul enrolled at the Scarborough campus of the University of Toronto in the fall of 83.

And it was during this time that his sexual fantasy started to become even darker. He got into dominating women and preferred forceful anal sex. He was physically abusive. he was verbally abusive to the women he dated. He enjoyed humiliating them. Very much like he did to his mom, I guess. Yeah, I was going to say. It sounds just like that.

Calling them names and putting them down. This is, no, that's not how he picked them up, right? It's kind of hard to pick women up using that technique. But once he was in a relationship or any sort of relationship, that's where he went to. And he also threatened them. you know, that if they told anyone what he did to them, he would kill them. This would later come out from many girlfriends of Paul Bernardo. So the women in his life, they didn't stay around very long.

He was able to attract women very easily, but getting them to stick around was much tougher. And for some strange reason, Gibbs, you know, women didn't seem to want to stick around to be tied up, beaten, imagine that. Belittled. Yeah. Humiliated. I mean, who in the hell is going to stick around for that?

Exactly. Well, we're going to find out. There's going to be one. There's going to be one. There's going to be one person. But it wasn't even just while they were in a relationship with Paul Bernardo that these women suffered. He had a number of restraining orders taken out against him by women after their

relationships ended. Because apparently he would harass these women. He would make obscene phone calls. He was not a very nice guy. Not at all. On top of that, he was a thief while he was in college as well. Because you go back to the Wall Street analogy, right? This is kind of why I picture him thinking of himself.

As a Gordon Gecko like character, he wanted all of those things. He wanted to finder things in life. He felt like he deserved them. And if that meant that he had to get them by stealing, then so be it. That's what he was going to do. I do think Gibbs for Paul Bernardo, greed was good to steal a line from Wall Street. You did distill it from Wall Street. Although he said greed is good.

He did. I changed it to was. You moved it. I did. Yeah. Paul also made some money by smuggling alcohol and tobacco from New York into Canada. Then he graduated from college. and he got a job as an accountant at Pricewaterhouse.

Pretty good job. I think it was a junior accountant, but still out of college, pretty good job. But his sexual desires were growing darker and darker. And it would be in May of 1987 that he would begin sexually assaulting young women. He started stalking women at night, searching for victims. A lot of times he would follow women. after they got off a bus at night until he found the right time to strike.

And this guy would be pretty prolific. I say you'd have to call him a serial rapist. Probably close to 25 incidents of either rape or attempted rape over a five-year period. It's crazy, man. And this was a guy that put fear into an entire area for, you know, quite a long time. Most of the attacks occurred outdoors.

They included physical and sexual violence, as well as verbal abuse. He would threaten his victims saying that he would come back to kill them if they told anyone. Intimidation and fear. Exactly. Yeah. I think he wanted to discourage them from going to police. So his first sexual assault occurred May 4th, 1987 in Scarborough.

He raped a 21-year-old. woman in front of her parents' house. So also, I mean, the other thing you're going to see, the guy was brazen about, you know, the way that he did things. You know, Bernardo followed this woman home and attacked her outside, right in front of her parents' house. And it was just 10 days later that he struck again. It was a 19-year-old woman in the backyard of her parents' house.

So he's not abducting these women off the street. taking them to some out of the way place. He's watching them get off of a bus or finding them somehow. A lot of times it was said it was after they had gotten off a bus. He's picking them out. He's following them. And then, you know, in the case of these first two, he's attacking them essentially right there at their house, in their yards.

So those two came really close together. about a week and a half apart. Yeah. The next attack would come a couple of months later, July 17th. He picked out a target and he attacked this young woman, but she immediately fought back. And at a certain point, he made the decision to leave her alone. September 29th, this time Bernardo broke into a house in Scarborough and he entered the bedroom of a 15-year-old girl, jumped on her back, put it in.

hand over her mouth and threatened her with a knife. And it was only because her mother heard her burst into the room and screamed that Bernardo took off. So this was an attempted rape. Yeah. Thank goodness the mom heard it, you know? Definitely. But to add another layer to this attack, a 19-year-old named Anthony Hainmire was convicted of the attack of this sexual assault, a couple of years later, he served about 16 months in prison for something he didn't do for something that is known that he didn't do. Now, it wouldn't be known. He wouldn't be exonerated for many years later. That's amazing, man. After, yeah, after Bernardo would admit to this crime. Yeah. And he's not going to be the only one to take the fall for a crime that Paul Bernardo committed. So we talk about victims, right?

there's a lot of victims in this case of Paul Bernardo and Carla Hamalka. Obviously, there are the victims of the sexual assaults themselves horrible. But there's also a few victims that were convicted of these sexual assaults only to later find out that they didn't do it. I mean, they were victims of Paul Bernardo as well. All right, Gibbs. Let's take a quick break to talk about our sponsor Daily Harvest. You and I have been trying to eat healthier, and daily harvest has the kinds of things that we should all be eating.

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almond chia parfe. It is unbelievable. And my kids really like the overnight oats. It's a quick healthy breakfast breakfast, ready for them before they go to school. Your daily harvest cup is ready in just 30 seconds. So go to daily dash harvest.com right now and enter our promo T-cat to get three items free off your first box. That's promo code T-CAT for three free daily harvest cups at daily-dash harvest.com, daily-dash harvest.com promo code T-Cat. So he, at this point, he's committed two rapes and he's attempted to others. He's a serial rapist. He is. But he's going to, there's going to be a lot more. But it's in October of 87 that Paul Bernardo met Carla Hamoka. So I just want to make sure in the timeline that we understand that he was already,

like, you know, as you said, a serial rapist by the time that he met Carla. And obviously, she's a central figure in this case. At the time they met, Paul was 23 and Carla was 17. She was like a senior in high school. Yeah. At the time they met. I think she was still in high school. Yeah, sounds like it. But apparently the two were instantly drawn to each other. So much, in fact, they had sex the very day they met. I did a little research on this, Gibbs, at the time, and I don't know what it is now, but the age of consent was 14 years old. That seems very young to me. I think it's really young. But I know as a dad. Yeah, as a dad, that seems very young to me. But I know there are or were quite a number of states in the United States.

where the age of consent was 14 at some period of time. Maybe there still are some. I don't know. That just seems like a very young number to me. I think so. So we have to talk about Carla a little bit. Carla Hamulca was born on May 4th, 1970, in Port Credit, Ontario to Carol and Dorothy Hamulka. She was the oldest of three children.

Eventually, the family moved to St. Catherine's, Ontario. that's where Carla and her siblings would grow up. Carla was described as pretty, smart, popular in school. She came from a pretty good home. She received lots of love. She graduated high school in 1988. And like I said, by this time, she had already met and was dating Paul Bernardo. Over the years, Carla had developed a really deep love for animals.

So after high school, she took a job at a very, veterinary clinic, as a lot of people do who have this unbelievable love for animals. It's a good job to go into. Yeah, it is. But Paul and Carla continued to see each other after they met. But one thing that Paul figured out pretty quickly was that Carla was different than any other girl he had ever dated. First of all, she wasn't turned off by his sadistic sexual desires. She was actually into it. She liked everything he wanted to do. She did. Yeah. Now, I don't know if it was because she actually liked it or if it was because she liked Paul so much that she was willing to do anything. Right, that she was willing to do anything. But she was willing to do anything. You know,

bondage, handcuffs, you name it. And that's okay between two consenting adults. Carla is going to do much worse. Right? She's going to commit crimes with Paul Bernardo. But the reason I think, talk about this is he couldn't make it work with his other girlfriends because they weren't into, I guess what I would call Gibbs his, his freakier side, his sexual side. Yeah. But Carla was. So their relationship grows. And as it does, Paul starts to become very controlling of Carla.

I think that's his nature. He was a very controlling person. He told her what clothes to wear, how to style her hair, what to eat, what to think. Essentially, he's trying to control almost every aspect of her life. And then he starts demeaning Carla. He starts calling her names, just like he did with his mother calling Carla fat, calling her ugly, which is a very strange thing for me, Gibbs. obviously I've been married for a long time, but I don't think too many women are keen on that

or are going to stick around for very long in that type of environment. I wouldn't think. So I think that tells you a little bit about Carla. So a few things happen, you know, over time as their relationship is growing. First off, Paul finds out that Carla is not a virgin, which I guess he thought she was. And he didn't like this. He was very disappointed by this. He got upset about it.

But Gibbs, I just want to touch on the irony here of that. He's disappointed finding out that his girlfriend is not a virgin. Meanwhile, this guy slept with half of Canada. Yeah. And he's a serial rapist. But yeah,

he's upset over this. You'll figure. And he's mad about the fact that his girlfriend slept with a couple people before he met her. I mean, you try to wrap your head around that, and you just can't. Now, the second thing is, Carla finds out exactly what Paul has been doing, namely, committing rapes against young women. And instead of running straight to the police, as you would think somebody in her position

would do, she doesn't. She's okay with it. Well, she's in love, man. She's in love. I've been in love. I'm still in love. You still are in love, aren't you? Yeah.

Yeah. Clarify that one. Honey, if you're listening to this one, that was a misspeak. It was an oopsie. It's one thing to be in love, Gibbs. And it's another thing to overlook some heinous criminal behavior. Yeah. I guess it's one of those questions, right?

The woman you love, you find out that she's Eileen Warnos. What do you do? You say, that's all right, honey. Just don't do it to me. We can overcome that. that. By the way, I like to sleep in my own bed at night with my door locked. With four locks. Yeah. Don't take it personal. There's nothing to do with you. So after meeting Carla, yeah. Paul takes a little bit of a break, but not too much. Really, because it's just December 16th of

1987 that he raped a 15 year old girl. And it's the very next day that Toronto police issue a warning to women traveling at night, and it's especially noted to be careful, you know, exiting buses late at night. Seven days later, December 23rd, we're still in 1987. We have not left in 1987. Man, isn't that amazing? We're still not, you know, I say amazing. It's just, right. All of this has happened.

Yeah, 87, man. Paul Bernardo raped a 17-year-old girl, threatened her with a knife. And this is significant because it's after this attack that he became known in the media as the Scarborough rapist. There you go. He's got his name. It's what all these bad people like. They like to have their... I think they do like it. Yeah, they want to be known for something, you know. So now he's known for something. Now he's... Because obviously, you don't want them to know your real name. No. But you, I guess you would want them to give you a name? Yeah, I think you would. I think you're on to something there because I think people would revel in that.

Not people, but these kind of people, these bad individuals, much more so than it just coming out in the paper that an unknown man did X, right? Now it's the Scarborough rapist. But the other reason that this attack is significant is because the victim was able to give a very detailed description of her attacker to police. She said he was good looking, clean-shaven, with no tattoos, and she estimated that he was about six feet tall, and she sat down with a police sketch artist, and they compiled a composite sketch. And it turns out that it looks very much like Paul Bernardo. But at the time, Gibbs, they decided not to publish

this composite sketch. I'm not sure why. I don't know either. I don't know the reasoning behind that. I'm guessing they had a good reason. Yeah, I'm sure they had a reason. I don't know what it is. There is another break,

about four or five months. The next attack occurred April 18th of 1988. So we're finally out of 1987. Bernardo assaulted a 17-year-old girl. The next month, he was almost caught. He was staking out a bus shelter looking for his next victim and a Toronto investigator noticed him hiding under a tree,

ran after him, but Bernardo got away. And that must not have scared him too much because he attacked an 18 year old woman just five days later. But this would be in Mississauga, Ontario, about 25 miles southwest of Scarborough. So maybe it did scare him a little bit. Yeah, because he expanded his because he decided to go about 25 miles away. And then he took another break. It was October 4th, 1988. He attempted to sexually assault a woman back in Scarborough. But again, this victim fought him. He ended up stabbing her. But she survived. She had some stitches, but she survived. And she was able to fend him off. November 16th of 1988, He raped an 18-year-old woman in the backyard of her parents' house.

And again, I don't know this complete situation of these. So I don't know if he knew for sure that the parents weren't home. But if not, if you don't have that knowledge, that seems awful risky. Extremely risky. But it's after this attack that a task force is formed to identify and arrest the Scarborough rapist. But it would be years. before they would get any type of significant lead.

But Paul and Carla are still together. And it's also around this same time that Paul started taking notice of Carla's younger sister Tammy. And this fact is going to lead to something awful. So apparently Bernardo told Tammy not to have sex with anyone. He started to develop this attraction to her. And I think in his mind, he was already. already working out how to get what he wanted. He already has Carla. Yeah. And now in his mind,

he wants Tammy. How am I going to get her? Oh, and by the way, he also has another woman that he's seeing on the side in Toronto. So he's dating Carla, secretly plotting to get Tammy, committing rapes around the Scarborough area, and dating a woman in Toronto. It's crazy, man. I mean, it really is. When you put it all together like that, so the next month at the end of December, he attempted another rape, but this time a neighbor chased him off. And then he's quiet for about a full six months, as far as we know. This is June of 89. He attempted to sexually assault another young woman, but she fought him. She screamed. And the neighbors came out and Bernardo took off. And apparently this girl, this woman, she scratched the shit out of him, scratched his face all up.

So good for her. When you think about it Gibbs, scratch the face, gouged the eyes, punch the nuggets. I mean, you do whatever you have to do. Exactly right. You fight like, if you're going to get in a fight, you fight like it's your last fight that you could end up dying. That's how hard you go. You go that hard. You don't go half, you know, halfway.

You go full steam, man. You do whatever you can. Yeah, exactly right. There's nothing about playing fair. There's nothing fair about fighting for your life. And for you, there's just nothing fair about fighting in general. No, man. That's exactly right.

Isn't that one of the rules of fight club? Because you'll, I've seen you sweep the legs. Like. Like Danielson? No, because Danielson didn't sweep the legs. The other guy was the guy from the cobra Kai. Cobra Kai. Cobra Kai.

I'll sweep the legs. I'll vacuum the legs. You do whatever you have to do. Whatever I have to do, man. But, you know, we talk about this, victims fighting, and sometimes they can't. Right. Sometimes you get put it such a disadvantage. You get taken by surprise.

Yeah, sometimes it's the shock factor. Right. You're like, your body could freeze, you know, and you're not. Literally. Yeah, yeah. You could literally freeze up and not be able to move. Yeah, and that's, you can't blame yourself. It's nothing like that.

But if you can, Obviously, if you can fight, fight. Yeah, I'm a big, big proponent. Yeah, that's right. I'm a big proponent for fighting, man. You just shocked that the word actually came out correctly. You questioned yourself on your own word? I did.

I was like, did that really just come out that smooth? It's not like me. I'll take it. You're probably going to leave that in there, though. I am going to leave that in there. Of course. The one time I get it good, you're leaving it in. Because you questioned yourself when you were right.

You know I was going to say if you were wrong, so why would you, why don't you just wait for me to say it? That's a good point. And just go on. That's all good. So after that, August 15th, 1989, Bernardo had been stalking a 22-year-old woman. He was waiting outside her apartment,

waiting for her to arrive home, and he sexually assaulted her. He committed sexual assaults in November, in December. And then in May of 1990, He attacked again, and this time victim was a 19-year-old woman. But after the attack, the victim had an unbelievable recall of what her attacker looked like. And they once again, with the help of police, created a composite sketch.

The difference here Gibbs is this time they released it, a couple of days after the attack, and it was published in newspapers in Toronto and surrounding areas. And apparently multiple victims had viewed this sketch after it was completed. And they agreed with it. They agreed that it looked like the man that had attacked them. So they put out the sketch. There was also a $150,000 reward for information that led to the capture of the Scarborough rapist. It's a lot of money.

It is a lot of money. 150,000. It's actually going to balloon up to 300 at one point, maybe go even higher. But with that amount of money, as you can imagine, a lot of tips start pouring in. And some of the tips that came in were from people that knew Paul Bernardo. Now, in previous years, former girlfriends of his had contacted police with their suspicions. One woman in particular told police that Bernard, Mardo not only abused her, but he had raped her as well.

Can we go back to the tip line? Yes. What's the minimum that you would take to turn me in? The minimum? Yeah. You'd be like... Have you done something really horrible? Because it would have to be to get...

You know, that one thing. Oh, that one thing. You know, 50, 100,000? Oh, okay, that's good. I was going to think you're going to take 10 grand, but like, you know... 10 grand's a lot of money. It just depends on what you've done. done.

Yeah. I'm just trying to figure out, you know, loyalty drops after what, you know? It drops at the Paul Bernardo line. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you've done those things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm turning you in. Yeah.

But I'm not talking about, I'm talking about it. If you went streaking and for some odd reason they put a, you were like a serial streaker. Yeah. And they put $50,000 on your head. You're calling in right away? Yes. Yeah.

But not because I'm looking down at you for streaking. I just want the $50,000. If it's $1,000, eh, you'd be all right. I'll let you go streaking. 10,000, you might be, you're not sure because it's... It's a coin flip at that point. Yeah.

You get up into 50, 100. Well, that's a no-brainer. It's a no-brainer. And you would do the same thing. Your wife would call me in before you called me in. Yep. She beat you to it just so she can do all that stuff she likes to do. But again, it depends on what you've done, the severity of what you've done.

If you didn't hurt anybody, except for the people who, whose eyeballs burned. Would they actually be... When they saw you? Yeah. Maybe they would enjoy it. I doubt it. You don't think so.

Mm-mm. Oh, all right. I don't know. That was that? I guess we'll get back to what we're talking about. That was a good hypothetical. Yeah. Okay.

We were talking about some of his earlier girlfriends. So they were giving this information about Paul Bernardo to police. And one specific piece of information was that he drove, a white capri similar to the one that had been reported by several of the Scarborough rapist victims. White Capri, those are the ones that look like a Mustang, Mercury Capri. No, I was thinking that was a big car. I think Mercury, I think it was a Capri. I think it looked like a Mustang.

I wasn't thinking, 1990s. I was thinking it was a big boat looking car, but I could be wrong. I really don't know. Marky. I don't know what I'm thinking of. The marquee was the big boat. I'm not even sure it's a mercury. Are you sure it's a mercury?

Capri. Yeah. You're probably right. You're pretty good with cars. I'll go with you. Yeah. Doesn't matter. People are going to write in and tell us one way or the other.

Correct. Like the, like the monopoly man has no monocle. He doesn't? No. You sure. Oh my gosh. I'm positive because I've gotten about a thousand emails.

You mean the little figurine or do you mean on the game? On the game? I thought on the cover. No. You sure? Apparently there is, has never been a monopoly man that had a monocle. I think we even have a voicemail about it later.

But a lot of people think, you know, they just picture him as having a monocle. So when you said he did, I was like, yeah, sure. In my head, he had one. But with this information Gibbs that police are getting from former girlfriends and people, so they're writing it up into a report, but it's never followed up on. And you also had previous co-workers of Paul Bernardo and important. an employee that worked at his bank, the wife of one of his friends,

all of these people contacting police to say how much he looked like to sketch. But again, they're logging this information, but they're not following up on it right then. And this is one of the things that the police would take some heat for. Later on, after all the dust settles, it would be for what people called their mishandling of the investigation. I think a lot of people look at it and say, okay, maybe if you would have followed up on

X, Y, or Z, you could have stopped this guy before he attacked more people and before he started murdering, right? Because we haven't talked about that yet at all. But as more and more people who knew Paul started to call police saying that he looked a lot like the sketch, eventually the police have to check him out. And they do. It's on November 20th, 1990. Did you see this sketch?

I didn't see it out there. Did you see it out there? Yeah. I mean, it looks like him, but it looks like a lot of people probably. Do you think you could have an artist sketch me? You've set across me now for... Yeah, we've talked about this before.

Yeah. But me now, I mean, do you think you could? Well, I don't know. I think these artists are amazing. These police sketch artists are unbelievable. It wouldn't be their fault. I think it would be my fault in how I relayed the details. Because I don't know how to describe.

I don't know how to put it into words what somebody's nose looked like or, you know, their chin or their mouth. I don't think I'd be very good at that part. But I don't, I think there's a lot of people that probably aren't good at it. And somehow these artists just like, and there's a lot of times they're pretty, they're pretty close. Yeah. So they go see Paul Bernardo. They interview him for about 35 minutes. And of course, he denied being the Scarborough rapist, although he did concede the fat Gibbs that he

looked a lot like the composite sketch. So even he thought he looked like it. Even went as far as giving them hair, saliva, and blood samples for testing. Now, DNA was pretty new at this point in time. And it was said that in Toronto, which is a very big city, even in Toronto, they only had one qualified DNA scientist on staff, and they only had one technician for Toronto at this point in time. That's how new it is. And the samples taken from Bernardo were part of dozens of samples that they had taken in this case. So one scientist, one technician, and apparently they already had about 50,000 samples that needed to be worked that had been collected from,

various police agencies in numerous cases, right, across Ontario. We're not talking just about in the Scarborough Rapist case. I'm going to take a long time for a couple of people to get through 50,000 samples. That's, yeah, quite a bit. Now, we know today it would be a much different story. You know, the DNA process is much more advanced than it was back then. Police agencies put a lot more emphasis on it. They have a lot more people trained.

so it would be it would be different back then much tougher to process DNA especially in a timely fashion that's how you ended up with all these departments having such big backlogs of DNA that it took them you know i think you've talked about it on previous podcast about oh yeah not only the the people in the time but the cost yeah the cost i mean that's why i said if i hit the lotto you know i'd love to just donate some of these kits can get process finally that are sitting in refrigerated trailers. So after this interview, the detectives determined through their interviewing techniques, I'm using my air quotes again, that to them, it was unlikely that Paul Bernardo was a Scarborough

rapist. They pointed out he was intelligent, he was good looking, he was cooperative, and apparently Gibbs, he was just a plain nice guy. No way could he be the Scarborough rapist. Yeah, a little that I know. I mean, yeah, you're right. They couldn't have been more wrong. So after this composite sketch was published, after he was interviewed, he stopped committing crimes for a while, right? I assume he figured there was just too much heat, too much risk committing more crimes in that

area. But he's not going to be quiet for long. And as we'll see, as we go along, he's going to commit more heinous crimes, including murder. But I do want to talk about a. woman by the name of Elizabeth Bain. Because it's believed by some that Elizabeth may have been Bernardo's first murder. Did you kill Elizabeth Bain on June of 19, 1990?

It's a loaded question. I mean, are we going to go back and go through the time sequence of what happened in my life? I mean, I could just give a yes or no answer, but there's a lot of issues about that. Right. You know, the Carlos is my role. Who did what, where, when? This is why I said, did you guys go down there to get a polygraph to see if she was telling the truth? Why didn't Kevin do it in the first place?

I mean, there's polygraphing everyone with the Camaro. Why would you make a deal with someone and not give them a polygraph? It's not incomprehensible to me. You know, because now I'm sitting with my file says her version, and it's a lie. You know what I mean? Yeah. I'm not making frivolous points here. I mean, and now you're asking me, after you said,

you said kill regional said I'm lying about this and then you're saying I'm lying about my profile you're saying I'm lying if I'm better or not now you're saying hey did you kill this person I mean well you're saying I'm lying here here and here I can say no I didn't but I mean you already said I'm lying here so I wanted to play that short clip because they're specifically asking him if he murdered Elizabeth Bain this is part of a longer interview and we'll play more clips of the interview in the second episode. And I don't know if you can get it from just the audio. But if you see the actual video portion of it,

you can tell how smug this guy is. I don't know if it comes across exactly in just the audio. But he's like a smug little shit, Gibbs, sitting there using big words, the way he's rolling his eyes and making, oh, it just, it pisses me off. You just want to grab him by his throat?

Exactly. Yeah. But I want to talk a little bit about Elizabeth Bain. She was 22 years old when she disappeared from the University of Toronto, Scarborough campus on June 19th, 1990. And this was just a few weeks after the last rape had occurred in Scarborough. Her car was found three days later with a very large blood stain in the backseat. At the time of her disappearance, Elizabeth had been dating a man named Robert Boltovich for a little over a year.

Elizabeth's body has never been found, but the police immediately focused in on her boyfriend and Boltovich was charged with her murder. The prosecution asserted that he murdered Elizabeth in some type of jealous rage after finding out that she had been seeing other men. because apparently she had been. This was something that they figured out. Or it was because she ended the relationship. This is what they thought. The problem was they didn't have a whole lot in the way of evidence. As the defense put it, there is no evidence of a confession, no evidence of a struggle,

no weapon. You don't know when death occurred. You don't know where it happened. You don't know by what means. And you can only speculate as to the, the circumstances. So that's a lot of stuff that they don't have. That is a whole lot of stuff.

Apparently private investigators for the defense uncovered witnesses who said they saw Elizabeth with a man that was not Robert on the night of her disappearance. But police dismissed the idea that this could have been the work of the Scarborough rapist because he had never abducted and killed his victims. So Robert Baltovich was convinced. convicted in 1992 and he was sentenced to life in prison with no possibility of parole for 17 years. It was said that the harshness of the sentence resulted from his refusal to tell authorities where Elizabeth's body was or to show any type of remorse for killing her.

Now, Gibbs, if you didn't do it, those two things would be really hard to do. Yeah. Right? you can't tell somebody where a body was if you really don't know. And you would be sad that your girlfriend died, but a couple of years down the road, I think it would be hard to show remorse when you're being accused of killing her.

Baltovich was eventually acquitted of the murder, but not until 2008. Well, after all of the Paul Bernardo acts would come to light, so you have to want to watch. wonder if this was Paul Bernardo's first murder. Problem is I don't know the answer to that. I just thought it was a very interesting kind of side note to this whole case. And you feel really bad for that guy if he didn't do it and spent what, 16 years in prison?

It's a long time to spend in prison for something you did not do. Man, every day you would have to sit there knowing you did not do it. And in prime, prime of his life. Really? Oh, yeah. You can't get those years back. I think that's a good stopping point for episode one. And episode two, we'll dive into the murders committed by Bernardo, committed by Hamulka,

including the terrible events that happened to Carla's own sister Tammy on Christmas Eve 1990. Yeah. It's horrible. Unbelievable. But that's probably how episode two is going to start. All right, Gibbs, we've got some voicemails. You want to hear those? Let's hear them.

Hi, my name is Carrie from Reno, Nevada. I listen to your guys' podcast all the time when I'm running, and sometimes I can have to stop running because I'm in shock as to what you said someone has done. I just sometimes I'm amazed at the horrible things people are capable of doing, but I'm definitely team Gibby. I just want to throw that out there and keep your own. time ticking. I think we're always amazed by some of the horrible things that people do. Yeah,

it's shocking. I like the way that she says, I'm definitely Team Ghibie. Definitely, she just can't say, oh, I'm Team Ghibie. I'm definitely Team Ghibie as in there's nothing else I could be. Nothing but Team Givby? There's no other logical conclusion for me to come to. Oh, I appreciate that. I appreciate it. Rex appreciates it. We all appreciate it. My Concho appreciates it. My Concho, yeah. Yeah, that's cool. Thank you. Hey, Mike and Gibby. This is Trevor from Vancouver, Washington. I want to tell a quick story real quick.

I was listening to the Wesley Allen Dodd episode last night at work. I was talking with my coworker on the way home telling him about this, like, evil guy that lived right here in our backyard. And before I could say his name, he looked at me and said, he goes, was it Dodd? I go, yeah, I was. He started crying and said that he was best friends with Justin Isley, whose brother was Lee Isley, the one that got hung in the tree. He was like four or five. And that the day it happened, he was with the little boy

and that they were supposed to take care of him and watch him. And since it was a nice neighborhood back then, they didn't think anything of it and kind of went ahead, kind of like trying to play, you know, like a little game of like keep up. And he got snatched up. And he, you know, he was just sobbing and crying. And it was pretty scary listening to him tell it because I had just gotten done with the episode. And then he called that story.

So, you know, it's pretty close to home one of these episodes. So keep your own in time picking. Bye. Talk about intense. That would be intense. Yeah. You know, we hear a lot of stories about people that have connections in one way or another to the killers to the crimes that we talk about.

But imagine growing up, living your life, there has to be a lot of guilt there, even though he didn't do anything wrong. No. But I think it would be natural. You know, you would feel guilty in that scenario. I can imagine. Hey, Mike and Gibby.

This is Kyle from Norco, California. I just wanted to call and say I love the podcast. I actually got to turn on you guys. when I heard Mike Morpirk on Beyond the Darkness, about the Golden State Killer, and listened to both first and second season of criminology, and obviously it was turned on to true crime all the time. From that, I haven't gotten a kick to listen to the true crime all the time on solved yet,

but I'm working my way as I'm sitting in traffic every day for work. So I also wanted to suggest two crimes you might want to take a look into want to be Robert Mike Bowne, who opposes the murders. Appreciate that suggestion. I don't think that's one I've heard of. No, I can't recall that either, so that's good. Yeah, we'll definitely look into it. I appreciate that.

Hey, Mike and Gibby. This is Tegan calling from Guadrohara, Mexico. I'm originally from Saskatchew in Canada. I love the podcast. It's been my summer break. I'm a teacher down here, and I've spent many, many hours hanging out with you too. my boyfriend and my brother who I live with being a guy I'm a cyclopath, but that's okay.

I just wanted to say that I just listened to the Aaron Michelle Kathy case, and it reminded me of a case from Medicine Hat Alberta in Canada where there was a young girl, she was 12, and her and her and her 23-old boyfriend murdered her family. Anyways, I thought you guys might want to check out that case. Love the show, love listening to YouTube back through, back and forth, and hearing all the information.

Anyways, stay safe and keep your own time ticking. Bye. All right. We appreciate that. Should you say from Guadalajara. Guadalajara. Yeah. Originally from Saskatchewan.

Saskatchewan. That's quite a trip. That is. The transplant. What cool name? Tegan. Yeah, that is a cool name. Yeah.

Also like medicine hat. Medicine hat. Where are you from? Medicine hat. Yeah. Where's that at? If you got to ask you don't deserve them. I can't tell you.

That's right. Hey, Mike and Libby. This is Danielle from White Lake, Alabama. She's just calling to say a logo show. I listen to it all the time. And I was just calling to have a case we ought to look into. It's Judith Ann Neely. It's happened in Fort Payne, Alabama. She's a real piece of work. It happened back during the 80s, and it was just a bad thing all together. If you could look into it, I think you'd really be interesting. And Team Ferguson, so this was, wanted to check in with you guys. So keep your own time kicking. Team Ferguson and telling you an answer. Have a good day. Bye. Love it.

Team Ferguson. She actually didn't say it twice, Gibbs. I just copied it. Put it back in again. No, she did say it twice. But that's good. Next time somebody does that, I'm going to copy. We're even.

One team Gibby? One team Ferguson. She didn't say, I'm definitely Team Ferguson, as if there's no other choice to make. But she did say. She did say it twice, though. So I got that going for me. Yeah. Hey, Mike.

Hey, Dave. It's Nicole from Texas. I just want you to say hello. And I wanted to make a suggestion for a podcast for the true plan all the time. And the suggestion would be for the good heart murders. It's just one of the ones that just seems interesting to me. And I thought maybe you guys would not talk into it. And I just want to say, Team Ferguson.

Keep your own time, keep your time, K-T-K-T-N. Bye. Number three, that's three, Gibbs. I think you're setting me up, man. No, I wasn't. There's another Team Ferguson. Yeah. Not to Furgie, but Team Ferguson.

So they're being really formal. They are. Now, if I would have copied the one from the previous voicemail and inserted it there, where you heard a different person's voice, then I'd be setting you up. Yeah. But I didn't do that. No, that's just, this is great. Yeah.

You know, makes me feel good. I appreciate it. Bring them on, man. All right. That's it. Gives, we've got nothing in the mail. Nothing in the mail bag this week. Nothing in the mail?

Nothing. Nope. No poker chips. No poker chips. No beef jerky? Man. I know. You're disappointed.

No beef jerky. That's normally what we eat during while we record. I know. We usually eat that right before we record. Send them some snacks. We need some snacks, man. Beef turkey, chips. I don't care.

You know, just make sure it's not. rot it by the time it gets here. By the time he gets here. Yeah. But that's it. That's it for another episode of true crime all the time. But we'll be back next week with part two of Paul Bernardo and Hamulka. Yeah.

It gets even more interesting. It gets even more horrific. Oh, this is. In part two. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That's what you want to hear part two for sure.

So don't miss it. All right. So for Mike and Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking. Thank you.