True Crime All The Time - Paul Hill

Episode Date: November 11, 2019

Paul Hill was a married father of three who lived in Pensacola, Florida. Hill found his calling at a young age and, after graduating from seminary school, became a pastor. He later realized that he wasn't cut out for the job and instead went into business for himself.In Pensacola, Paul got very entrenched into the anti-abortion movement. He came to believe that the only way to stop doctors from performing abortions was to kill them. He set out a plan to make that happen at the local clinic where he protested on a daily basis. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the life and crimes of Paul Hill. How did this former minister come to believe that God wanted him to murder a doctor? On that fateful day of July 29th, 1994, Paul not only killed the doctor at the clinic but also shot an elderly couple that had picked up the doctor at the airport. This episode will leave you scratching your head. This man who believed in the sanctity of life so much murdered two people and wounded a third. And in the end, the State took his life for his actions. But to his final day, Paul Hill never wavered in his belief that what he did was right.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise and donation informationTrue Crime All The Time is an Emash Digital production.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Your math skills have global potential. As an actuary, you'll solve some of the world's most pressing problems while helping people to live better lives. Become an actuary through the society of actuaries and work anywhere in the world. Hello everyone and welcome to episode 156 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

I'm good, man. How about you? I'm doing great. I know this has been an extremely tough. couple weeks for you. It has been. You know, some of the roughest I've ever experienced. Yeah. Some of the roughest in your life. And for those of you that don't know that are listening, most of you that follow us on social media will know or Patreon folks will know. But Gibby's dad passed away last week. And it's been rough. I mean, it's, there's no way around

it. No. It's a rough situation. Most people listening have experienced it. Yeah. What I will say that I was blown away by was the amount of support. Yeah. On social media, our Patreon folks, just people sending in emails, messages. I was blown away by it. Yeah. It was amazing. Everybody's great, man. It was so awesome. Listeners sent flowers. They did. They sent you some packages. On top of all the, you're in my, thoughts, you're in my prayers. And they were all genuine. These people really, yeah, were hurting for you. They were. And they wanted you to know it. Yep. So they did. They did awesome. Yeah. It was amazing. It touched me. I know it touched you because it was for you. I was very honored. But now we're back to

recording. Yeah. And, you know, this is something that you and I have done weekend, week out for the last three years. We're coming up on our three year anniversary. Yeah. It feels good. I imagined it would. Yeah. For you to be back in your normal routine, it may be however many hours we're here in the studio, but this is normalcy. And that's what I want. And it's nice in these trying times to get back to normalcy. Yeah, get my mind on other things.

So we had some new Patreon supporters. So let's just go ahead and give our shout out. Okay. We had Matt East. Hey, what's Roman West, though? Well, I don't know. I think Matt East is better than his counterpart, Matt West. I got to be honest with you.

But I like the West. Definitely better than Rex West. I better, Rest West. Come on now. You hurt me. Jordan Anusowitz. Hey, Anousa Wits. Vanessa Mayo. What's going on, mayonnaise?

Jennifer Lopes. Hey, Jennifer. Amanda Smith. What's going on, Amanda? Tracy Balbino jumped out at our highest level. Balbino. We had Melissa Lynn Poff. Hey, Poff.

Adele Johanna. Johanna. Rebecca Drew. Hey, like Nancy. Drew's sister. It could be. That'd be awesome. Could be. And then we had a bunch of people jump out at our highest level. We had Charlene Payne. Thanks, Charlene. Sherry Bartlett. Thanks, Sherry. Young, Young, Young, I appreciate that. And Colleen Ellen Becker, all of those people jumped out to our highest level. Ellen Becker, stepping up again. Thank you, Ellen Becker. Amanda Rousey.

Hey, Amanda. Who, I'm just telling you right now, anybody with the last name Rousey. Yeah. I just assume as a martial arts badass and somebody that you don't want to mess with. sister did kick my ass at one time. Yeah. That fight did not last long. No, I thought it would, I would do better. I still have it on video. I've not released it just because it is incredibly embarrassing to you. 20 seconds is really fast. Yeah. To be submitted, pinned. Yeah. With your arm almost broken. Yeah. By Rhonda. Not even mentioned in all the tears that I. Yeah. And you cry. Yeah. We had Melissa Easley. Hey, Melissa. Debbie Abel. Hey, Debbie. Jessica alahadzik.

Alahadzka. Kara Slence. Hey, Kara. Emily Sweett. Thanks, Emily. And Echo Kent. What? What?

What? What? So a lot of great new support gives. And then if we go back into the vault, this week we selected Shonda Shepard. Hey, Shonda. Been with us a long time over two years now. Wow. I appreciate that.

So we appreciate all the new Patreon support to continued Patreon support. We also had some great PayPal donations. as well. We had Alicia Little. Hey, thanks, Alicia. Miranda. Miranda. Lori Peterson. Thank you, Lori. And Donna Weaver. What's up, Donna? So appreciate that. All right, Gibbs, we have an episode out right now on true crime all the time unsolved. We are talking about two different cases from our home state of Ohio. The first is the 2010 disappearance of Nikki Lynn Forrest from Troy, Ohio, which is a little bit north of where I live, actually very close to where you live. Very close.

And then we'll discuss the 2011 Unsolved Murder of Caitlin Markham of Fairfield, Ohio, which is south of us. Which was really close to where I used to work. Me as well. So make sure you check that out. We did not put out a reviews or in podcast last week. But make sure you check out that podcast. We'll have a new episode out on Tuesday. We will.

All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? Let's do it. We are talking about Paul Jennings Hill. And I think this is a little bit of a different type of case for us. We're headed to Pensacola, Florida. So we're in the panhandle to talk about a man who Gibbs was so fervently against the idea of abortion that he was willing to kill to try to stop it. Now, abortion is a very touchy subject. As are a lot of subjects in today's society. Right. There are people on both sides of the eye. I guess the thing for me was that I knew there had been a lot of incidents over the years, bombings of abortion clinics. I knew doctors had been killed. Right. But what I didn't realize until I really got deep down into the research is just exactly what people have gone through over the years.

related to this issue of abortion. I mean, you've got doctors who travel sometimes many miles from their home to come into these clinics to perform abortions, trying desperately to keep their anonymity. And then on the other side, you have protesters, you have anti-abortion activists who some of them are trying everything they can to find out the identity of these doctors. They're trying to find their personal information. Well, you're definitely going to have the different sides, but then you're going to have the extreme variances on the different sides. And I think that's a very important distinction to make. There's always people on both sides of the aisle. I think

where you really get into trouble is when you have the extreme outliers, I guess I will call them, who are willing to do essentially anything for what they believe. And in this case, that involves murder. But there's something else that for me set this case apart from others that are like it. Paul Hill was once a minister, a pastor, a man of God. This is a guy that preached about, you know, the sanctity of all life. So Paul Hill saw these abortions as taking a life. So obviously he was very pro life.

But at the same time, he chose to kill people. It's hard to kind of wrap your head around. Then at the end, the state ultimately took his life for the murders that he committed. So it's all kind of comes full circle. I'll say it all just kind of encompasses around each other. Yeah, it's something that we'll talk about as we go through. There's a lot going on in this case. And I mentioned it, right? Going to be people on different sides of the fence. You can bet on that. But you and I have talked about this before. We feel like we're here to tell the story. We're not taking a side one way or the other.

We're presenting the facts of the case. And I did find an interview that Paul Hill did with a show called Life Talk before his execution. So I want to start out the show playing a clip from that interview. The obvious question harkening back to nine years ago is, is why did you do it? You know, you ask why perhaps the most fundamental reason is the sixth command. Mammat, Thou Shott Not Murder, also requires a means necessary to defend innocent people, and that's what I did was I used the means necessary to defend innocent people. I compare my actions in my mind to the shootings at the Columbine High School.

If I had killed one of the murderers there at the Columbine High School, people would not have objected to my actions because I would have been saving born children. They were grown up. But the fact that the people I saved were unseen and the murderers that I killed were legalized murders, people don't get the connection. But yeah, if someone were standing on a playground with a rifle shooting children on the playground, it would be your duty to come up and use the means necessary to stop him. And that's similar to what I did. I used the means necessary to restrain this abortionist.

And I confessed that the force I used was extraordinary. that was because the circumstances were extraordinary. So there you have it. I mean, I think it really helps to lay out the thoughts of Paul Hill. And we'll get into it more as we go through the episode. Now, some of his comparisons to Columbine and, you know, playground shooters and things like that, they're kind of hard for me to reconcile because he even said it. Legalized murder.

These abortions were legal. Right. Now, whether you agree that they should have taken place, that's different. But in the eyes of the law, they were legal. What he did was illegal. But to him, he had to do it. And we'll get into the trial and what he tries to offer up as his defense being a justifiable homicide. That's what he believes. Yeah, I mean, we live in the United States. Do we? Well, I wasn't sure because sometimes I think I'm. not here. But you remind me. You do have those other addresses. I do. But, uh, you know, whatever country you live in, you reside there. And by residing there, you agree to follow the laws that have been written. Some you agree with and some you do not. And we all have that, right? There's many laws on the books that we shake her heads at. There's laws that we stand firm with. You have your beliefs. But at the end of the day, you have the laws of the state of the country that we have to abide by. And that's tough for a lot of people. Well, it was definitely tough for Paul Hill.

Yeah. Let's start off talking about Paul. Paul Jennings Hill was born in Miami, Florida in 1954. This is not a big background case. We're not going to be talking a lot about his childhood. He did get into drugs as a kid. He was kind of a hellraiser. He was also extremely popular and played football in high school very much like yourself, Gibbs. Yeah. Well, I mean, at least the Hellraiser part. Well, yeah. I don't know about all the rest of that, but.

Well, you know, maybe, maybe, we'll just leave it at that. You were, you were a little bit of a hellraiser, I assume. A little bit. Hill was outgoing. He dated a lot, as I imagine you did too. I didn't know you in high school, but. Well, you know. You're a little Casanova.

Whatever we want to put out there, we'll just let people wonder. Well, that's the thing about it. You can say whatever you want. Unless people that knew you in high school are listening and can refute that statement, it's going out there. They're like, no, he pretty much dated that one girl the whole time, you know. Or he pretty much stayed in his basement playing Dungeons and Dragons. That's all I remember of Mike Gibson.

Did I wear that hat out? I don't think I wore the dungeon hat out. Paul Hill was charged with the assault of his father at the age of 17. So his father called police, said my son assaulted me. was a warrant put out for his arrest. This altercation allegedly occurred around his parents trying to get him help for his drug problem, which he didn't want help. Right.

And a fight ensued. Well, you normally don't want help, but you don't think you have a problem. For a lot of people. Yeah. So, you know, the years go by. He's a little aimless for a couple of beers. He's working a construction job. He's not sure what he wants to do with his life.

And then very suddenly he found God. And by the descriptions, I mean, it was very sudden. And that happens. You know, I've heard other stories like that. Yeah, it happens for people where there is a, I don't know if you want to call it an an aha moment. So from there, his life changed dramatically. He enrolled in seminary school and ultimately became a minister.

He met his later to be wise. while he was a senior at the seminary school, they went on to marry and have three children. Paul bounced around ministering at different places. They lived in South Carolina for a little bit. In the early 1990s, Paul and his family were living in Florida. And that's when he realized probably almost as suddenly as it happened when he found God that, you know what, this isn't for me. This is not my true calling to be a minister, to be a pastor. It wasn't for him. That would be tough to completely devote your life for a period of time to this one very specific thing, right?

You attended school to become a preacher, a pastor, a minister. I may use all those words interchangeably, and I'm not sure they are interchangeable, but. And then all of a sudden you realize, I don't like this. or this is not for me, however it went down. Yeah, I think he was like, I'm glad I have God of my life, but I don't know if I can be the guy that has to make sure everybody else has God in their life. Yeah, whatever it was, he decided it was time for a new line of work.

He also wanted a change of venue. So Paul packed up the family and they moved to Pensacola, Florida in 1992. Paul bought one of those auto paint franchises. You know what I'm talking about, Gibbs? Where you can get your car painted for cheap is what I always called them. Well, I think they did a, the way it was described is they did a lot of things. They did some painting, but they also did like pinstriping, detailing. Oh, like the tenant windows.

Yeah, it was like they did all kinds of things. Small repairs, they would repair like vinyl seats and things like that. He did private work, but he also did a lot of work for the car dealer's in the area. Oh yeah. That's good business. And that's what you want, right? You want to get some of those contracts. Now, I'm not exactly sure when Paul Hill got into this anti-abortion activism, but it really seemed to ramp up after a doctor named David Gunn was shot in an abortion clinic in 1993. My thought is Gibbs, he was anti-abortion for a long time because of it. Because of of his religious beliefs.

But he wasn't out picketing in front of clinics. That really started after this doctor, who was known to perform abortions, was gunned down. That lit a fuse for whatever reason in Paul Hill to say, I've got to get more involved. I have to become an activist. Yeah, I'm guessing whatever he heard when that happened. rang true inside him about something. Like he thought that's what needs to happen. I think he was probably already having the thoughts.

Sure. But this is what kind of galvanized it. And from there, he formed a group called defensive action. And apparently Gibbs, this was a group of pastors, a group of church leaders that openly advocated the killing of doctors who performed abortions. I don't, I didn't even know this existed. To be honest with you. It's really bizarre that people would come out publicly and promote that.

And on top of that, that you have a bunch of church leaders, pastors, reverends, these type of people. But it was Paul Hill that kind of became the leader of the group, the spokesperson. He even appeared on some national TV broadcast, talking about his group and really not sugar-coding it at all. He came right out and said, this is what we stand for. This is what we believe in. And we're talking about CNN, Larry King, Nightline, the Phil Donahue show. This is big time national television. And here's this guy, Paul Hill, on these big shows, basically talking about how all doctors who perform abortions should be killed. And if that doesn't raise some red flags, I don't to what does. It's a big statement that would probably get you on the FBI radar for sure.

Take the abortion thing out of it. When you go on TV and say that any group of people should be killed, that is normally not looked at very kindly. There's got to be a whole FBI team scrambling to put a file together on you. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, because like you said, take that equation out, just saying that you want these people dead. Any group of people. Yeah, because you could, say that about any group that you don't believe in what they're doing, right? And you have the ability to have that opinion. Sure. But when you take it to that next step and say, not only do I not agree with what these people

are doing, I'm so against them that I think they should all be killed. That's rough. Yeah. And on top of that, I'm going to promote it that I think you should help me kill them. Exactly. So I want to talk about the clinic a little bit that's at the heart of this case. It was called the ladies center clinic. It was located in Pensacola, Florida. I don't know whether it still exists. Gibbs. I don't think it does. I couldn't find any listing under that name. It could have changed names and it could still be operating or it could be gone altogether. I really couldn't figure it out. But Paul Hill was a man known to demonstrate outside of the ladies center clinic. He didn't live that far away, about 10 minutes. away from the clinic. He was there a lot. I mean, almost like a daily basis. And he carried signs that

read things like execute murderers, abortionists, accessories. He also carried a sign that read disobey unjust laws. Hill was arrested on June 16th, 1994, for shouting outside of the ladies center clinic. He was sentenced to 45 days in jail for violating the city's noise ordinance. Well, I'm guessing the city put this ordinance in play when they got complaints from people around there with all the protesting, good or bad, right? Because you're going to have protesters from both sides. Sure.

You know. And you're going to have some very peaceful protesters. Sure. I don't want to paint protesters in a bad light. Now, Paul Hill's going to give them all a bad name. Yeah. But they're not all to the extreme that this guy was. But owning a business next door or in the same building as that place, the last thing you want is to have to hear that all day long or have to navigate around or through or whatever.

So I can see them reach it, business owners saying, hey, Pensacola. Help us out here. You got to put something. Well, quiet this down. This is how far the protesters went. They actually got together. I think it was one guy, but he bought the parcel of land right next to this clinic. so that they could nobody could really stop them right he owned it they could come and be on the lawn

right next door to this clinic and pretty much do whatever they wanted now the noise ordinance like you said was probably something that it was on the books but they probably enforced it because of this yeah buy whatever property you want to buy and do what you want to do on it just keep it down keep it down so you think about these signs and you say wow you know that's pretty scary stuff you're advocating that certain people should be killed. But I think Paul Hill was just one of many. You know, like I said, there were a lot of people that demonstrated. There were a lot of people that carried signs that had these types of slogans on them.

The difference between Paul Hill and other demonstrators is that Paul Hill is going to take action. He's going to make the decision that the only way to stop these abortions is to kill the people who are carrying them out. Hey look, we have the right to assemble. Sure. Right? We have the right to protest. We just don't have the right to break a law.

And that's like you said, that's where he's going to go. Well, he's going to break a bunch of laws. Yeah. So the man carrying out the abortions at the clinic was a 69-year-old doctor named John Britain. Britain lived about six, seven hours away in Fernandina, Florida. I never heard of Fernandia. But it was said Gibbs that he would most of time drive into the Pensacola Clinic on Fridays to perform

abortions. Sometimes he would fly. But most of the time I think he drove in. That's not a short drive. Six, seven hours. Kiss your wife goodbye. Say, honey, you know, I'm leaving Thursday night or I'm leaving early Friday morning to get there. But this is where, you know, everything kind of comes together. because Britain had taken the place of Dr. David Gunn. This is the guy that I talked about who had been shot three times in the back and killed as he was walking up to a clinic in 1993. This is just a year before the incident that we're going to cover. It's also, like I said, what I think really sparked Paul Hill into that level of extremism.

So you think about that, Gibbs. this Dr. Britton, at one point, he had to get a call asking if he would take the place of a man who was shot to death outside of the type of place that he was being asked to come and do that same work at. Yeah, this is a decision that you wouldn't take lightly. No, there's no way. Number one, do you even want to go do this at all? And then, you know, secondly, do you want to go do it in the wake of, you know, you know, the guy that previously performed the abortions being killed.

And knowing that this area is kind of a hotbed for anti-abortion activists. Yeah, I would say tempers are kind of on the high level. Very high. But in the end, he decided that he would do it. John Britton had been performing abortions since 1973. You know, that's when Roe v. Wade came out. That's made abortions legal. John Britton sat down for an interview with a Tampa Bay Times reporter named Laura Griffin.

And in the interview, he said that he personally was opposed to abortion. He disliked the procedure. He didn't believe in it. I think he went as far Gibbs is to say he wouldn't do it for anyone in his family. And he didn't want anyone in his family to have it done. But he was willing to do it for others. And he talked about some of the reasons why. some of the horrific situations that he had seen over the years.

He mentioned 11-year-old girls, rape victims, young victims of incest, right? So he's giving examples of very young girls getting pregnant through the commission of essentially what are crimes. Yeah. Against these young girls. So this man, John Britton, was a family doctor on the other side of Florida. he was very opposed to abortions yet he made the decision that he was willing to give up his time get up early like i said leave his wife go to pensacola on fridays to perform this service there are some seriously odd things about this case right you have a perpetrator that is so pro life that he's

willing to kill i mean just break down that sentence the guy is so pro life right that he's willing to kill You have a doctor who doesn't believe in abortion, but is willing to perform them as a service for girls slash women in need. So in sense, you have two individuals doing things that they don't believe in. Yeah, seemed to go against their beliefs. And Britain, he knew the risks. We mentioned them, right? His predecessor had been gunned down the year before. He knew there was a great deal of risk in doing what he was doing.

So when he drove to Pensacola, one article said, like I mentioned, sometimes he would fly in. But when he got near Pensacola on the days that he would drive, he stopped on the outskirts. And he would change out his license plate to try to keep people from, you know, getting his identification, getting his personal information. didn't want them to be able to figure out where he lived. Right. Yeah. Now, when he flew, he had people pick him up, drive him in, try to, you know, sneak into this clinic, escorts is what they called them, right?

He had people that would pick him up, escort him into the clinic. These were the same people that escorted the women in to try to shield them from all these protesters. The clinic had an off-duty armed police officer that sat inside the front door. So John Britain did his best to shield his identity, but there was no way around it. There were so many anti-abortion protesters, and they were smart. They began tailing him. They eventually figured out who he was.

They took pictures of him. They put him on flyers, Gibbs. They put his home number on the flyers, and they plastered him up all over town. So it didn't take long before he's back at his home in Fern, Andina getting harassing phone calls, threatening letters and packages started showing up on his front doorstep. That's a bad situation. Something hard to hide from. I'm sure he got some interesting looks and stairs when he went in town, you know, did his shopping or whatever. I'm sure if people knew what he was doing. All right, Gibbs, let's take a break to talk about our sponsor, Rocket Mortgage.

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Then he went to the gun range. Gibbs, he tested out this shotgun. The next day, he went back to the gun range to do some more testing. There's no doubt. At this point in time, in the mind. of Paul Hill as to what he's going to do. He has the gun. He has the ammo. He's been to the range twice to make sure that he knows how the gun works. He's going to kill John Britton. And he got up early the next day on the 29th with that goal in mind. Very determined. I think at that point in his mind,

there was nothing that was going to stand in his way. The decision was made. This is what I'm going to do. Yeah. So he gets the gun. He practices. with it. He's good with it. He feels comfortable with it clearly at this point. And I'm assuming he knows where he needs to stand with this shotgun to make sure that he hits his target. Yeah, it's a good point you bring up. There really wasn't much in the way of the research about what he was doing at the gun range. But, you know, for those people that don't know, you know, shooting a shotgun is somewhat different than shooting, you know, a rifle or a semi-automatic handgun or even a revolver for that match. matter, there's a pattern to the shot that comes out from a shotgun show. That pattern changes

the closer, farther away you are from whatever it is you're shooting at. So he's up early on the 29th. The 29th is a Friday. And Paul Hill knew that Dr. Britton was going to be at the clinic that morning. He was up early so he could get to the clinic to wait on the doctor. He was seen by a number. of people, many of whom would later testify at his trial. There was a police officer that said he encountered Paul Hill early that morning. Hill was putting out little white crosses in the yard by the clinic. The police officer told him that he couldn't do it. There was an ordinance against that. He made Hill remove the crosses. A woman named Kathleen Mealing later testified at Hill's trial that she saw him standing by the fence at the clinic.

So no doubt. It was very obvious. Now, after the fact, right, obvious, that Paul Hill was awaiting the arrival of Dr. John Britton. While Paul was waiting, Dr. Britton was being picked up at the Pensacola Regional Airport by his escorts for the day. He had two, 74-year-old James Barrett and his 68-year-old wife, June. James was a retired,

U.S. Air Force Lieutenant Colonel. Gibbs, this guy served in World War II, Korea, and Vietnam. Wow. That's impressive. He spent in total 28 years in the military and served in those three wars. June was a retired U.S. public health service captain. These people were accomplished. You know, they had led very interesting lives. Now, they were both widowed and they found each other late in life in Annapolis, Maryland. James was 69 at the time and June was 63 when they met. They married just a year later in 1990. They moved to Pensacola in 1992, which just happened to be the same year that Paul Hill came to town with his family. But the Barrett's volunteered their time as escorts at the clinic. And I mentioned some of what they did. Most of the time, they escorted women into the

clinic, trying their best to shield them from the protesters. Sometimes as they did this morning that we're talking about, they picked up the doctor at the airport when he chose to fly in rather than drop. Sure. So it was said that Dr. Britton was wearing a bulletproof vest that morning as he rode in the passenger seat of the Barrett's pickup truck to the clinic. That should tell you something. You don't wear a bulletproof vest to work unless you know there's a chance. Somebody's going to take a pot shot at you. Do you wear a bulletproof vest to go into your place of employment? No.

That's a negative. You know why? Because you're not worried about it. No. John Britton was very worried about it and he should have been. You know, there's protesters every day. His predecessor was shot to death as James Barrett pulled his truck into the clinic driveway. They saw Paul Hill.

He was standing in the middle of the driveway blocking it. They knew who Paul Hill was. He was well known to everyone at the clinic. They had interacted with this guy in some former fashion on almost a daily basis for the last year or year and a half. So Hill is blocking the driveway. Barrett is not able to pull his truck all the way in. He stopped the truck and began to open. the door. This is when

Paul Hill picked up this Mossburg shotgun and started firing off shots. James Barrett was shot and killed. He fell to the ground. Dr. Britton and June Barrett were still in the truck when the shots were fired. Britain

was hit and killed. June Barrett later described seeing blood on the doctor's head. She also described Gibbs seeing blood dripping from in between the front seats of the truck. Very descriptive, horrible situation. June was hit herself in the arm and in the breast, but she was in the back seat,

which I'm sure helped. She also managed to get down on the floor of the truck in the backseat, which would have helped immensely. Of the three, June was the only one that survived. A fireman who arrived at the scene later and helped June out of the truck, later testified at Hill's trial that June said, quote, Paul Hill, that's the crazy son of a bitch who did this. Because again, Paul Hill was no stranger. Everybody at that clinic knew who he was by sight.

He was a pain in their ass. And he's made it very clear of what his intentions have always been. Sure. So after Paul Hill finished shooting, he had killed James Barrett, he had killed the doctor, he dropped the shotgun, and essentially began sauntering down the sidewalk as if he had completed his mission. So he's just having his little kind of like a proud moment. Like he did what I wanted to do. I conquered and just kind of that's it and walking away.

Yeah. He wasn't trying to get away. He was just walking down the sidewalk. Yeah. There were some people that heard the shots. They saw him walking away. They chased after him. One eyewitness said that as he was.

walking down, he just had his arms up in the air. Yeah. Palms facing up, almost as if he was, I don't know, reaching out to God or something. Right. Saying I did what I needed to do. But he was just walking. It wasn't like he was, you know, trying to run away from anybody. So these guys are chasing him down the sidewalk.

They're also waving to police, you know, as police get on the scene. And they got there very quickly because they encountered Paul Hill on the street. one report said that one of the officers who was there was the same guy who saw him earlier that morning and asked him to remove the crosses from the lawn. So they handcuffed Paul and they searched him. They found two shotgun shell holders, one on each of his ankles. They found shotgun shells in his shirt pocket and they found a box of shells in his back pants pocket. And as the police walked him to the squad car, he said, quote, I know one thing. No innocent babies are going to be killed in that clinic today. So again, he's not trying to hide what he did.

No. Yeah, I was wondering how he felt, you know. I mean, that says everything how he felt. But initially I was wondering, how did somebody that takes a firm oath being pro-life just took his first life? Yeah, as far as we know. And by all indications, I don't believe he had killed before. Right. Well, I think you heard it in the clip a little bit too.

I think he was totally fine with it. I don't think he was wrestling in his mind with what he had just done. He had made the decision that this was the right thing to do. We'll talk about it a little bit later, but he will later say that he was told by God. This is what I want you to do. So I feel like he probably felt like he was all right. with the world. Yeah.

And with God. So Gibbs, this is not going to be one of those cases where police have to break down Paul Hill. They know he did it. He's eager to admit that he did it. So they're investigating the crime scene. Police found the shotgun. They found the spent shells that were fired. Eventually, they would lift Paul Hill's fingerprints from the shotgun as well as one of the

spent shotgun shells that was still inside the gun. Pretty good evidence. Pretty good. Plus you have him saying, yeah, I did this. It's pretty good too. Kind of locks it up. On August 9th, 1994, a grand jury indicted Paul Hill for the premeditated murders of John Britain and James Barrett, as well as the attempted murder of June.

He was also indicted on one charge of shooting into an occupied vehicle. I actually have never heard of that charge before. Hill was held without bond in the Escambia County Jail. But here's the thing. And I found this extremely interesting. This was a state charge, right? The grand jury brought back. Paul was also charged federally for violating a federal law that made it illegal to block

access to an abortion clinic. So you had the federal charges, which carried a maximum of life in prison. And then you had the state charges, which could result in the death penalty. He went on trial for the federal charges first, took the jury about two and a half hours to find him guilty. But this was unprecedented, this federal trial, because Paul Hill was the first person to be convicted

under this new federal law. It had just been passed earlier in the year. It was called the freedom of access to clinic entrances law, or face for short. Paul's state trial began on October 31st, 1994. And in a move Gibbs that I know you always have an opinion on, Hill requested to represent himself. Seems like something he would do.

Yeah. And he did. And I think probably more so to continue to put his message out. I think he knew where this was all going to go legally wise, but I think he probably wanted to use that opportunity to be the voice. Right. So if you're representing yourself, you get to talk more.

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. He's not getting out of this. I think he was probably smart enough to know that. So I agree with you. But they had a hearing and the judge allowed him to represent himself. But he also appointed an attorney from the public defender's office to act as what he called

standby counsel, right, to help him out if he needed help. He's going to need a lot of help. I would think so. Because most people do. And we'll get into it a little bit more. And I am surprised that they allowed him to represent himself because it was a death penalty. Yeah, the prosecution is going for death. But I guess the judge said, hey, that's your right.

If you want to do it. We asked you, you waived it. More power to you. It's not going to work out well for you, but I'll let you do it. So he'll filed some motions. One was reported as being 70 pages long. Oh, wow. Okay.

Yeah. It could have been complete. gibberish for all I know, but he asked for an out-of-state attorney to be his standby counsel. That request was denied. I think it was denied because the attorney wasn't licensed to practice law in the state of Florida. That's a problem. Yeah, that's a problem. He'll pleaded not guilty to all charges. And we're not going to spend a lot of time talking about this trial, but one of the big questions about it was whether or not the judge would allow Paul Hill's defense. And Hill's defense was going to be that the murders he committed were acts

of justifiable homicide. Now, the judge ultimately ruled against the motion to use this justifiable homicide defense, but I want to talk about it a little bit because it's very interesting. When you think justifiable homicide, I think most people probably think about a person who kills someone that they believe is about ready to kill them. Right. You know, self-defense, justifiable homicide. Somebody breaks into your house, they have a gun. You have a gun.

You kill them. That's kind of the boilerplate version to me of what I think of as justifiable homicide. That person should not go to jail. This guy was trying to kill him. Right. And he stopped him or kill his family. But it can be used in other situations. like where a person kills someone in the act of defending someone else, right?

Let's say a total stranger, a third party, you're out somewhere. You happen to be carrying. There's a robbery about ready to go on, somebody's shooting. You shoot the perpetrator. Right. Well, you saved these people that were in harm's way. You can use the justifiable homicide defense. So that's how Paul Hill saw it. You heard it in the clip. To him, he was protecting these unborn

babies from harm and therefore he was justifiable in his actions. But he wasn't allowed to use that defense. So without that defense, he was pretty much left with nothing because the evidence against Paul Hill was pretty overwhelming. The prosecutor came out and said that at the very least, Paul Hill planned the murders two days in advance. I think that's pretty obvious, right, from the timeline of the gun purchase. But he also said that he could have been planning it for as long as six months. There were a number of eyewitnesses to the shooting that testified at the trial. A man named Earl Jackson said he saw Paul Hill pick up a shotgun by the clinic's fence and start firing.

a woman named Elizabeth Pinch was in a nearby parking lot said that she saw Paul Hill firing the shotgun. We mentioned a woman named Kathleen Mealing. She testified that she also saw Paul shooting the gun. There were a bunch of other people that either saw him shooting or they didn't see him shooting, but they heard the shots and they saw him walking away from the scene. So plenty of eyewitnesses. Tons. And just general witnesses, yeah.

Well, and let's not forget the fingerprints on the gun, the fact that it wasn't like he said, ah, where are you arresting me? I didn't do this. You know, that that's not how it went down. Right. A firearms expert testified that the shells found at the scene were fired from the Mossburg shotgun that had Paul Hill's fingerprints on it. The guy said that the gun held eight shotgun shells.

there were a total of 11 shots fired, which means that at some point, Paul Hill had to reload. The firearms expert also testified that from the way the pellets entered the truck, it was apparent that Hill at some point had changed his firing position at least one time. So it wasn't like he stood in the same place and fired all 11 shots. He fired some shots. He might have moved as he was reloading.

and then he fired more. So he was very tactical about it. He was. Yeah. He was. Again, I think he had been planning this for some time. And then you had the medical examiner who testified to the injury sustained by the victims. These were brutal.

James Barrett was struck in the head, the chest, the arm, and the abdomen. Dr. Britton was hit six times in the head, face, chest. He was also hitting the arm. These caused catastrophic damage. Britain's skull was fractured, causing massive trauma to the brain. This shot to his arm, they said it blew a gaping hole in his arm. And it shattered his humorous bone. Just grew some stuff.

Oh, for sure, man. These shotgun blast will do some major damage. Well, and that's the thing, right? Gunshot wounds are nasty. But when you get hit by a shotgun at fairly close range, it can really cause major damage because you have a large number of pellets, projectiles, coming out of this shell, and they are just ripping through thing. You know, I think it's good that the prosecutors laying all this out, you know,

even though we know that he admits doing this, but I think you have to lay it all out. You have to get technical with it because death penalty, you know that there's going to most likely be some appeals coming down in the park. Oh, well, there always is, right? There's automatic appeals anytime there's a death penalty case. And you're right. I mean, the prosecution just can't go in and say, well, he admitted it.

Right. So find him guilty and we'll move on. They still have to lay out all of the evidence. But I think the biggest witness for the prosecution was June, right? June Barrett was there. She was in the middle of the firefight. She saw it. So I would think, Gibbs,

That is pretty compelling testimony for a jury. You have the experts. That's one thing, right? They're laying out all of this scientific type evidence. But when June Barrett gets on the stand and says, Paul Hill was standing in the driveway, firing at us, he killed my husband. He killed the doctor. He shot me.

Right. And she's saying, you know, I witnessed this blood dripping. I mean, it's very compelling testimony. Yeah. it's basically putting the jurors in the truck with her. You're like, you're sitting there when you're hearing all that. So I mentioned that Paul was acting as his own counsel. What I found extremely fascinating was that it was reported that he didn't cross-examine

any of the witnesses. He also didn't have an opening statement or what appeared Gibbs to be any kind of strategy at all. He was just there. Just, well, like I. said, I think he was there as a mouthpiece for what he believed in. Right. Now, he was barred, as we mentioned, from using his justifiable homicide defense, which really was probably the only slim chance in hell he had of getting out of this. So I guess at some point, he just thought,

well, what else am I going to do? Right. I'm no Perry Mason. There was going to be no Madlock last minute. Yeah, I'm not Perry Mason. I'm not Madlock. Well, no, you're not. And neither are all the other people that try to represent themselves. That's why it's a really bad idea. Yeah. Worse thing you could ever do. The trial didn't last long. It was over by November 2nd.

So we're talking about a three day trial, maybe not even three full days. The jury came back and convicted Paul Hill on all counts. It took this jury Gibbs about 20 minutes of deliberation to reach their verdict. That should tell you something. definitely a slam dunk for the prosecution. That's what I was going to say. When we talk about slam dunks, this was a slam dunk. I don't know this for a fact, but I would imagine that a lot of juries take longer than 20 minutes,

even if they take their first vote and it all comes back guilty. Yeah. Just because they don't want to look like they rush through it. I mean, 20 minutes, it takes five minutes just for everybody to get in their seat. Yeah, I just don't think there was any. roadblocks put up for the jurors. Well, because you had no defense attorney. Right.

To try to cast even a shadow of a doubt on anything that was said during the trial. If you're not cross-examining witnesses, you can probably also make the assumption that you're not objecting to a lot of things. The prosecution is probably getting most of everything they want through, right, to the jury. Right. Pretty tough. I mean, the jurors are sitting there. he thought, well, maybe these jurors will see it the way I see it and see it beyond the state or federal

law and see it as a larger thing. But they're sitting there as jurors for the law that is written. And that's how they are going to have to act. Well, not to mention the fact that these jurors would have been questioned during voir dire. Yes. So both sides would have known what their feelings are. and anybody that probably felt, if there was the slim chance that anybody felt as extreme about this as Paul Hill did, I'm sure there were plenty of people that were against abortion. Sure. But that's not the question. The question is, would you be willing to kill?

Do you think it's okay to kill people that provide these abortion services? And anybody that even came close to saying that, gone. Yeah, they struck. Sure. Now, I will say this, Paul Hill had quite a number of supporters during the trial. The police presence was also extremely intense. I guess they had the SWAT team on rooftops scattered around. They had snipers. They weren't taking any chances. Gibbs that this thing was going to get out of hand. The next day during the penalty phase, the jury recommended death. And it was on

December 6th that the judge sentenced till to death in handing down his sentence, The judge said that he factored in three aggravating circumstances. Number one, the homicides had been committed by a person with previous convictions of violent crimes. The homicides were especially heinous, atrocious or cruel. And number three, the homicides had been calculated and premeditated. After the conviction, a priest with this affirmative defense group, right, that was headed, kind of started up by Paul Hill, held a press conference.

He stated that Paul Hill was motivated directly by God. He also said that there will come a time when abortionists will be killed on a daily basis. This guy is saying this in front of the entire media. Again, not hiding at all. The fact that these people believe so strongly that abortion is wrong, they're willing to kill anybody involved with it. Now, you also had a large number of pro-life people coming out and denouncing the violent acts of Paul Hill.

They were pissed that they were being painted in the same light as Paul Hill, right? These are people that were very pro-life, but they were peaceful protesters. They were trying to get their message across. They weren't willing to kill anybody for it, though. but as often happens, right, when you're aligned with the same group as someone that goes out and does something like this. Guilty by association. Yeah, you kind of get painted that way. And these people were ticked.

They had to come out and say, hey, we don't believe in it. But that's not our message. We're not willing to go the route that Paul Hilded it. One Reverend came out and said, if you are pro life, there are some things you cannot do. and one of those is take a human life. That makes a lot of sense to me. So you essentially had two different types of anti-abortion activists. You had some that believed in what Paul Hill did and were all for stopping abortion

through any means necessary. That was one group. Then you had those that were totally against abortion, but they were only willing to try to end it through nonviolent means. I think that was the majority. Right? This Paul Hill group was the minority. But what's interesting Gibbs is that you have religious people in both groups, right? You have reverends, pastors that came out and said, yeah, these people should be killed. Then you have other people of God saying,

how can you say that? You can't take anyone's life. I think it's all of this is what really drew me to this case. So Paul went to prison, obviously, right, sitting on death row. Paul Hill's execution day was set for September 3rd, 2003. His last meal, Gibbs was steak, a baked potato, broccoli, salad, orange sherbert, and unsweetened iced tea. Now, don't go too crazy and get sweet tea. I know. Or sweetened iced tea. At this point, does it really matter if it's sweeten or not, you know? No, there's no need to watch your waistline. Right. this point because, you know, the next day you're going to die. And I'm not making a joke about that. It's just, I find it strange. And maybe this guy just really liked unsweetened iced tea.

And I would probably put the broccoli on the side. Oh, like, I'm fine with the steak. All of the rest of it? No. I don't even like to eat broccoli at home. And my wife tries to melt some cheese on it to, to, you know, make it more palatable, but never works for me. It doesn't work for me either. No. I still eat it because she wants me to and to be healthy. But, but. And I eat salads too, but it's not what I'm, I'm not going to be craving a salad. No. I want like lasagna, man. That'd be my last.

Something big and hearty and, but take me a long time to eat it. You're always about the how long. You know this is like, they're not waiting on you to finish for the execution to happen. I'm sorry, man, I'm still eating. You're not going to be able to drag this out over the night and into the, the next day. I got a big trail is on you here. It's going to take some time. Paul Hill also got a chance to meet with reporters the day before where he told them that he was sure that he would be rewarded in heaven for his actions. He never wavered in this.

The talk about, you know, how he was following God's instructions when he committed these murders. He also said that he felt no remorse whatsoever for what he had done. That was something that never changed. He believed until the day he died that the murders he committed were justified. He was very devoted to his cause. Yes. But he didn't stop there. During this interview, he called on others to do what he had done, right?

To use whatever force necessary to stop abortion. So you can imagine the prison system was on high alert for this execution. It was reported that the security force, force for Paul Hill's execution was the biggest since Ted Bundy. Wow. So that's saying something. That is saying something. And I think Gibbs, they had pretty good reason to worry. You know, there were anti-abortion websites, forums, people on the internet that were causing them quite a bit of concern. People were posting maps to the prison where the execution was set to take place. there was a lot of violent rhetoric floating around, especially on the internet, about trying to

disrupt this execution. A lot of people, and I shouldn't say a lot, a minority of people saw Paul Hill as a kind of a hero figure. Sure, I can see why they would, you know, depending on where they stand with their own beliefs. Yes. Sure. Makes sense. I mean, to you and I, we wouldn't see, and most people listening wouldn't see him as a hero. Right. But to that small minority of people who believed in that type of extremism, they held him up there in very high regard for what he had done. In the end, there were about 60 protesters that showed up with signs.

There were obviously protesters on the other side too, right, that were more than happy to see Paul Hill die. But in the end, nothing violent. happened. It was essentially pretty peaceful. People held prayer vigils. They had their signs, but that was the extent of the demonstrations. It wasn't like the two sides clashed and there was this big war or Paul Hill's side of it tried to storm the gates or disrupt the execution. Now, it was said that there were about 100 police officers there. So that show of force might have parked some of those thoughts about storming the

castle. Yeah. Have fun storming the castle. But 60 versus 100, that's probably going to thwart anything that you have planned. Yeah, probably didn't want any plastic bullets coming at them that day. If they were plastic. Well, that's true back then. We don't know. Yeah. I have a theory that probably not all of them, if any of them were plastic. Yeah. Because if you're going to try to rush a prison, you're going to get shot with real bullets. Right. So let's talk about last word. Paul Hill's final words were the last thing I want to say. If you believe abortion is a lethal force, you should oppose the force and do what you have to do to stop it. May God help you to protect the unborn as you would want to be protected. Paul Hill was the first person executed for taking the life of

an abortion provider. So this guy kind of holds a couple of distinctions for a lack of a better word. he's the first guy to be executed for killing an abortion provider. He was the first guy convicted under this what was then a new face law. Right. About blocking the entrances to abortion clinics. But in the end, Gibbs, you know, as we kind of wrap up this episode, this one is very hard for me to get my head around. You know, I get the protests.

I get voicing your opinion on a subject. I get the fact that people are on both sides of this issue. There are some people that believe taking any life is wrong. But then how can someone turn around and say, taking any life is wrong, but it's okay for me to kill these doctors because I'm doing it for the cause, you know, as Paul Hill believed. And again, don't get me wrong. I think it's a very small minority of people that believe what he believe. to that extent that all these people should be killed.

But you heard Paul Hill. He truly believed in what he was doing and he thought that it was just. Well, and you're never going to change that person's mind, you know? I mean, that's where he was. That's where his whole belief system laid. The other thing that I was really shocked by in researching this episode is just how many clergymen were of this same mindset. that there were a lot of people that, you know, had given their life to God.

Now, I get why they don't believe in abortion. I get that from the religious aspect of it. But to come out and say that these doctors should be killed as a religious leader, as a minister, as a pastor, as whatever word you want to use, I just found that very odd. In total opposition to what I would have thought, a religious leader. would say. And maybe I'm being naive. I don't know. And again, small minority. I know. That's where we get into the, how do you make sense? Right. How do you make sense of some of these people and their thoughts? Because they're so extreme. Yeah, it's just, and I know it's a, it's touchy, touchy, man. Oh, it's a touchy subject.

You know, I mean, I'm sure somebody's going to get ticked off just about the fact that we're even talking about abortion. But to me, this is an extremely fascinating case. And I feel like it deserves to be told. And it's, you know, you can't shy away from every touchy subject or else what do you got to talk about? Yeah. Oh, no. Yeah. You're exactly right.

I mean, I think Gibbs, and I don't know how you feel about it, but I think for most people, no matter which side you come down on the abortion issue, it's hard to side with. Paul Hill. It's hard to wrap your mind around how he could think it was okay or justifiable to do this. Sure. You know, even if you're against abortion in all forms, how can you justify taking someone else's life? Yeah. In the pursuit of trying to stop abortion, it just, it doesn't make sense to me. On that day, he was willing to take three lives. He took two. He took two. He set out. Really, I think he set out to kill the doctor, but the doctor had escorts with him. And he knew that.

It wasn't like it stopped him from pumping the shotgun and firing all those shots. There could have been 10 people. Yeah. I think he was going to do it regardless. To get to the one person. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think I get what you're saying because in his mind, he was thinking, I have to kill the doctor. Right.

Because the doctor is the one that is performing the abortion. But what you're saying is he was willing to kill whoever else he had to as well. To get to the doctor. So you got to wrap your head around that too. How's he making that okay in his mind? Exactly. I don't know that he ever really talked about that. And it's one of the reasons why I wanted to spend a little bit of time talking about James

and June Barrett. These were amazing people. They had amazing lives. Sure. They were volunteering their time. for something that people may or may not believe in, but they did. And they were willing to, you know, give up their time for it. It's just a tough case all around.

Yeah. It's one of the ones that could have you talking. Yeah. Talking, thinking a little bit for sure. But that's it. That's the case of Paul Hill. Kind of went down a strange road, right? From Hellraiser to minister.

Yeah. To auto body paint. Franchiser. franchisee to getting into this really extreme anti-abortion activism and then making the decision that, yeah, I'm okay. God's okay with it for me to kill this doctor. We've got some voicemails. Let's hear him.

You can check those out. Hey, Mikey. This is Taylor from Michigan. And I just wanted to say that you guys have the best through crime podcast I've ever found. I've always loved true crime. And I work night shift at a school. and I have extreme paranoia. And most true crime stories are just very eerie and very unsettling.

And you guys are able to put humor into it, which makes it more enjoyable for me to get through the night. And I work in a pretty sketchy neighborhood. So, you know, I always get nervous. You guys make me feel a lot safer and very entertained during the night. Keep doing what you're doing. And bye. All right, Taylor, we appreciate that.

Yes, awesome. Glad that we can give you that comfort. Hey, Ma. both the two of you. But Mike, I got to say, as much creep as you give Gibby about his mispronunciations and stuff, I was listening to the latest

episode about the 300-pound woman that jumps on the guy's back. But he said anything to you. Or old Gibbs, man. He sure gets it. But I think he

sometimes does that stuff just to get a laugh, too. Keep it out gifts. And love you, Mike Bergey. And you got to keep up the good work. Thank you. Oh, keep your own time, chicken. Oh, I wish I did it for a laugh.

Yeah, nobody knows. Nobody knows what's real and what's not. What I will say to that, and I don't remember that, I don't remember hearing that when I went back and edited, but it's very possible. I make mistakes all the time. What I keep saying, Gibbs, is that you're supposed to catch me. I know. but sometimes I'm not sure you're listening to me.

I look over your tweeting or you're on your phone and you're supposed to be the gatekeeper that catches me when I say something and then you're supposed to give me a hard time about it because you don't, it makes it seem like I'm picking on you all the time. Or maybe I thought you were saying it right. That's supposed to be our banter back in, yeah, you probably heard it and be like, yeah, that's totally right. That sounds good. Yeah.

That's probably how you pronounce that. That's funny. Hey Mike and Gibby, this is Ruby from Tulsa, Oklahoma. I just started watching your guys' podcasts, like, very, very recently. I actually discovered you guys through the reviews are in podcast, and I heard you mention a few times, but you guys did stuff involving true crime, and I was very curious to see how your guys,

when you, you know, you seem just so, you know, silly and lighthearted how you would deal with such, like, heavy topics. And, you know, I was honestly, surprised just to see how well you guys balance your light humor with the seriousness of these crimes that you cover and how you actually give respect to the victims. And I just wanted to say that I really appreciate all this hard work you guys do. So, uh, cool. I know you've got those cute little things at the end, but I don't know them yet. So, uh, take care. Wow, Gibbs. I really appreciate that. And that's a first. Yeah. Most people tune in to the reviews or in podcast, our new podcast.

Right. Because they know us. from true crime all the time or true crime all the time unsolved. Right. That's the first person I've ever heard that found the reviews are in podcast and then came over and started listening to true crimes. Like that. It's very cool. But we appreciate the kudos.

Hey guys. This is Eileen from Cincinnati. I was just calling to say that I love your shows. I love the extra content that I get from Patreon. I love hearing your relationship on T-Cat, T-Cat on Salt, and I am a big fan of the reviewer-in. when I listen to you guys, I feel like I'm hanging out with some of my friends or maybe to cool older uncles, which is why I wanted to call and say thank you and to give a message

to Gibby and tell him that I'm so sorry to hear about the loss of his father and to let him know that family comes first, jobs come second, and to always keep that in mind in times like these and just let him know that the whole T-Cat community and family is thinking of you. Thanks again, guys. That's cool. Thank you for that. Yeah, what I will say, Gibbs, is there was a lot of voicemails of people saying something similar to you. And I had to pick and choose, right?

Couldn't play all of them. But there was a lot. Yeah. A lot of support from the T-Cat Nation. And it was amazing. Definitely appreciate it. So we had mailbag. Jenna Watts sent me a very cool Kentucky Wildcats, Turvis Tumblr.

Really? Which I love those. Yeah, you do. And she sent you a holiday ornament that is a bowl of popcorn that has the words movie buff on it. Oh, okay. Because you're such a movie buff. Yeah, that's cool. And she referenced the fact that you are a movie buff, even though you can't really remember all of the particulars.

But I'm really good at it. You are good at it. Yeah. And then our friends at Nefarious New York sent a little man that, to you, that they made out of Twizzler packages. I think it's supposed to be a woman. Oh, it is? Yeah. I don't know.

I didn't really look at it that closely because I knew it was for you. There was no little twizzler hanging in between the two legs. No, there was no little twisler. But I didn't know that there would be or not be. I didn't know that would denote man or woman. They made me a Twizzler woman. Yeah. It was very imaginative.

I mean, I guess we should explain it. It's not made out of Twizzlers. It's made out of Twizzler packages. Yes. So like the arms. are little packages of twizzlers. Yeah. The legs are and then there's a body and...

They did a good job. Yeah, no, it was cool. Yeah. All right, buddy, we got to get out. All right. So that is it for another episode of True Crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.