True Crime All The Time - Peter Manuel

Episode Date: March 18, 2019

Peter Manuel is one of Scotland's most infamous serial killers and he operated in the 1950s, before the term was even used. His troubles with the law began at an early age and his crimes progressed until he began murdering. From the time he was convicted to the time he was hanged was only about a month and a half.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the strange life and crimes of Peter Manuel. His crimes were horrific but the details of what happened after his murders and how his trial unfolded are fascinating. Manuel had an extremely rich fantasy life. Is that what led to his murders or was he compensating for events that unfolded during his childhood?You can support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 122 of the true crime all the time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Flannel Gibson. Gibby, how are you with another flannel on today, brother? I'll tell you what, man. It's a flannel type of day. It is flannel weather. So I will give you that. And I won't go urban cowboy, rhinestone cowboy. I won't go any of that today. Yeah, they do snap. They do snap. I wasn't even going to say it. but I know you wanted the people to know. I wasn't even going to say it. It's a snapper.

So how are you doing, man? Good, man. I'm, you. No, I'm doing really good. Yeah. It's been a little crazy week. My youngest had her tonsils taken out a couple days ago. Yeah.

So we've been, and I think it's been worse on her than we even thought it would be. Get her ice cream. Yeah, she's got everything, but she's just hurting. She looked like she was in pain. Yeah. I felt for her. Yeah, the first couple days, I think she was still on the really. good drugs maybe she wasn't hurting quite as bad but does good drugs help they do I do that's why I kept

my eye on you coming in I'll keep my eye on you going out I well I saw it and I was like you probably saw where they were you scoped them out I tried to walk around that way but your wife cut me off I's like damn it all right all right let's do our patreon shout out let's do it we had jimma hey jimma Justin Pickett yeah Justin Brendan Taylor thanks brezela Garcia griselda Sarah Hime. Hey, Sarah. Kelly Ogle. Hey, Kelly.

Gillian Samitt. Oh, thanks, Gillian. Jim Landers. Hey, Jim. Elizabeth McKisson. Oh, Desda McKisson. Kimberly Carlin Sands jumped out at our highest level. KCS.

Thank you. Don Anderson. Hey, Don. Hey, Don. Berglon. Well, I'm just going to leave it at Burglund. You like Berglan? I do.

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Ryan Schwartz. Thank you, the Schwartz be with you. Yep. Vera Wolf. Hey, Vera. Jasmine Ammons jumped out at our highest level. Man, I like that name, Jasmine. Yeah, I do too.

Katra von Dez. Hey, Katrin. Did you put an in on the end of that? Might have. Just for shits and giggles? Speaking of giggles. Giggles, yeah. Marianna Terzakis.

Hey, Mariana. Teresa. I messed that up. And Charlene Ray. Hey, Charlene. And if we go back into the vault. This week, we see. elected Diana Ward. Hey, Diana. Been with us a long time. She has. Long time Patreon supporter.

That's awesome. So I appreciate all the new Patreon support, all the continued support. We had some great PayPal. Did we? As well. Candice Zugich. Ooh, thanks, Candice. Melissa, Buell. Melissa. Shila Green. I like that. Paul Perry. Hey, Paul. And Donna Harkins. Donna. Awesome. All right, Gibbs. So true crime all the time on salt. Yes. Episode out right now. I know. on the Bakersfield three. That's good, too. And, you know, we got a lot of great feedback on both episodes last week on Unsolved. People thought this was a really mysterious episode, which it was.

It was. I think this Bakersfield three, people are going to say similar things. And when you're talking about three people connected to each other that disappear in succession. Right. And then you get into all the connections and what were they into. And it's a very mysterious case. It is. I think everybody will enjoy it.

Yep, I do too. We've got not this weekend, but next weekend we have a brand new Patreon only episode coming out. So if you're not signed up for Patreon, now's a great time. It's an awesome time. Don't forget CrimeCon if you're going to purchase your badge on CrimeCon.com. use our code crime all the time 19 book your room now book it now go to crime con try to get a room close to fergie hang out with us eat some benets or benets or benets there's a lot of people gives that are telling you i don't know if you've seen all the posts but a lot of people talking

about oh you can't have orange juice with a benie there's no way that's going to taste horrible oh i haven't seen that somebody said somebody gave you a suggestion but now i can't remember what it was. It was a very specific drink. Oh, I think I've seen that where you can go in, you get like a freezy or... Yeah, it was, it was something very specific. Yeah. So, I'll look it up when I get there. Yeah, we might have to. You're ready to get into this episode of true crime all time. Well, absolutely. One day, what if I said, you know what? I'm not. I would say, I'm going to have to do it on my own and it's not going to be as good. That's what I would say. Well, that's why I always will say I am. All right. In this episode, we are discussing

the Scottish serial killer, Peter Manuel, also known as the Beast of the Berkinshaw. He's one of Scotland's most infamous serial killers. This guy terrorized Glasgow, Scotland, and the surrounding areas during the mid to late 50s. So we are going back a little ways. Yeah. He was convicted and hanged for seven murders. But before they killed him, confessed to a bunch more. So that's, you know, that's why people think he, he's up there as far as, especially in

Scotland as being one of the most prolific. Sounds like he probably was. So I do think, like with a lot of the cases that we do, you know, people are going to be asking themselves, how many people did Peter Manuel actually kill? And was he wearing a kilt? And was he wearing a kilt? And was he wearing a kilt at any point in time? Sure.

I think, honestly, it could, the number could be as high as 20. Wow. Yeah. I really do. A lot of authorities have pegged it at like 18. Okay. But you always, you know, there's probably, if it's that high, there's probably a couple more that they haven't connected. Oh, absolutely.

Connected. You know there is. So I said, we're going to Scotland. And I think it's only fitting. You know, I am the son of Fergus. It also gives me a great reason to say, if it's not Scottish, it's crop. Oh, that was good. Yeah. Not a great accent.

You can take my country, but you can't take my freedom. Oh, man, I love that movie. And it gives you a good reason to try out some Scottish accents. The key word was try. To try. So we have had a lot of requests for this. You know, this is up there as far as the number of times it's been requested. For me to do my accents?

No, for this Peter Manuel episode. And you and I have been wanting to spread out a little bit, venture into some other countries. We have been to Scotland one another time. Yes, we have. With Robert Black. I actually forgot about it. Somebody on social media had to remind me that we have been there. You know, with 200 plus episodes.

At a certain point, it gets hard to remember who you've done, where they were. Well, right off top of your head. Sometimes you forget who I am when I show up. Sometimes I do. You know, we have to talk to you for a little bit, and then you remember. I've never been to Scotland. Have you? I've never been to Scotland either.

It is at the top of my list. I mean, I have heard that it's absolutely beautiful. Yeah. I mean, I want to play some of the amazing old golf courses they have. That's where they invented golf, right? Yeah. Yeah. I want to eat some of the local dishes.

Haggis. Hagis, Cullen, skink. Mm. I think it might be it. Cullen, skink. It might go together. I'd have to know what's in it first. Lorne, Scurley.

Ooh. These are all traditional Scottish dishes. None. What you have said sounds like an appetizing word. Wait, you don't want some scurly? No. You want a side of cullen skink with that scurly? That would be a no.

What about haggis? You know what haggis is? It's absolutely, you know what? As much as I want to say no, I think you can't go to Scotland without at least having a bit. Well, yeah, you got to try it. But you know what it is. I know what it is. I don't want it. It doesn't sound like it would be good. It's like coming to America and not having a hamburger.

Well, I tried blood pudding one time. I was not a fan. Or blood sausage or whatever. Blood sausage. I was not a fan. No. But when in Rome, right? Right. In Rome? Yeah. What's the rest of that? Do what they do? Do as the Romans do. Yeah. So I think, you know, you got to try some of those local dishes. Maybe we, you and I could catch a glimpse of the Loch Ness monster. Oh, it's there. It sounds like a fun trip. Do you think we can fit all that in? Yeah. Yeah, we actually need to do like a European tour.

Like a European vacation? Yes. Yeah. We need to fly into London. Me and my family are looking for sex. I think we'll be okay going to Scotland as long as we don't run into anyone like Peter Manuel. Yeah. Stay away from those types of people.

I would wear, you know, I would wear a guilt there. You would wear one here. I've seen you wear much less. And it's, it's, I'm just saying, almost, uh, stomach turning at, at some points. I mean, the speedo thing, I just, I just think that's something a man shouldn't wear, but that's just me. But over in Europe, it's the thing. It is the thing. You know, it's what they do.

At our local, uh, our local pond over here, not so much. Well, I forget all the kids out there. And the kids are like, mommy, mommy. Look, he dropped something. He's going to pick it up again. Mom, don't look. Yet they look. But even though we're going to Scotland,

Peter Manuel was not born there. He was actually born in the United States in New York City in March of 1927. And I guess he was a really big baby, nine and a half pounds. That's a whopper. Probably all that good New York sauce of his mom ate. This is the pace. Yeah. Picante.

Picante. Now, his parents were Scottish. They had been in the U.S. for about three years at the time Peter was born. He had one older brother who was a couple of years older. And then later on, he had a little sister who was about seven years younger. The family moved to my former town of Detroit, Michigan. Oh, yeah. Where Peter's father, Sam, worked in the auto industry.

I don't know where else you would have worked. That was pretty much back in the day. That was what you did. Peter's mother, Bridget, was a homemaker. Now, in 1932, the family decided to move back to Scotland. Peter Manuel was around five years old. So for one thing, it's the Great Depression. For another thing, I think Peter's father was sick.

And so they felt like they would be better off going back to Scotland where they had more family, more support. support. Sure, makes sense. So Peter started school, right? He's still, he's young. But he had this strong American accent. He didn't have the Scottish accent like the rest of his classmates. He was laughed at. He was bullied. And I think from all the research, Peter Manuel was the type of person that wanted to excel. He had this desire to be better than. And, he was, you know, everyone else, he wanted to stand out. He was kind of like the all eyes on me type person. You know that person. Yeah, you and I are not those people, but you know who some of those people. Oh, absolutely. We do. So in school, he couldn't make that happen, right? Academically, he was behind

some of the other kids. So I believe that this and to a very large degree, the teasing, the bullying, it led him to start skipping school. He didn't want to go. Many of us have different reasons we skip school. And I think bullying is at the top of that list. I agree with you. Teasing, all that stuff. Yeah.

But I really believe for Peter Manuel, it was about that, but it was also about the fact that he couldn't be the king. He couldn't stand out in this sea of, you know, young kids. academically, he just, he couldn't do it. Yeah. So he was basically saying, hey, I can't beat these people. I'm just not going to go. When Peter was 11, the family moved to Coventry, England.

But again, he's got, he's going to have the same issues in school. That's, that's not going to change. There are reports that by the age of 12, he stopped going to school altogether. Now, I think in large part, that's because from about this. point forward, he was always in and out of reformatories, juvenile detention centers, whatever you want to call them. Yeah. He was in trouble from 10, 11, 12 years old up until the day he died, off and on. Probably start off picking pockets. He, he was into petty theft, for sure. He got into breaking into houses. Yeah. At a, at a very early age. I mean, we're talking, you know,

10, 11, 12, stealing from people, whether it was on their person or their house. Just like all those boys from the movie Oliver. That's a good reference. Yeah. I like it. I do think he became a pretty prolific burglar. Yeah. Could you be a good one?

No, I don't think so. No. I'm too loud. Yeah. I walk loud. You knock stuff over. I do. I'm clumsy.

I knock stuff over. I just don't, I would not be a good cat burglar at all. Your prints and everything would be all over the place. You probably sit down and start playing their PlayStation. I think you have plenty of time. Plus, I'm easily distracted. Yeah. You know, squirrel.

Some people have called me squirrel over the years. So you're right. I see a PlayStation. I think, I got five minutes. I can sit down. I can play a game real quick. Two hours later, they're still there. And the police are there.

But he did. You know, he got into these burglaries, breaking into houses. At one point, he was sentenced to two years at a juvenile, prison. And I guess for me, gives it this, the really strange thing about Peter Manuel is it seemed as though he had a good home life. You know, I didn't find anything in the research that, you know, said he was beaten, abused, neglected. So nothing rough. I, I couldn't find it. You know, it talked about the fact that he was especially close with his father. But I think he had a good relationship with his mother as well. So none of those kind of serial killer type background

things that that you and I like to look for and point out. I just didn't see him. Probably a lot of haggis. It could have been too much haggis. Yeah. Now, as he was growing up, like I said, he spent a lot of time in juvenile prisons, reformatories. There were a couple of major incidents that Peter would later blame some of his problems on. So one thing to point out, I mentioned the Great Depression. As he gets older, we're getting into World War II now. And Peter was hit in the head with some shrapnel during a German bombing raid. Well, that can't be good.

No, that can never be good. He was knocked unconscious from this blow to the head. It said that he had some memory loss. as a result of this incident. And then when you get into the second one, pretty similar timing, he was doing some work with some other guys and got electrocuted. And this kind of what was a pretty serious accident,

three guys died from this, you know, being electrocuted. He was hurt, suffered some serious memory loss as a result of this as well. So I don't know. You've got some head trum. You've got some, we haven't talked about anybody being electrocuted before.

It's not fun. No, I actually had been. I got shot across the room one time. Ooh. It was not fun. That explains some things. It does. Yeah.

So he's growing up. He's a juvenile delinquent. Then in 1946, he would have been about 19 years old. Peter committed a series of attacks on women. So in March of that year, over the span of less than a week, he attacked three different women. He beat them all severely and he raped one of the women. But the thing about Peter was he was very well known to police, right?

Everybody knew who he was. They knew he was a troublemaker. He was a thief. He's one of those guys that they would always like try to pin something on. Yeah, he was routinely pulled in. I think just about every time some crime was committed, they wanted to at least know where he was to see if he had anything. to do with it.

It wasn't that hard. I don't think for police to figure out that he was involved in these three attacks. And he was convicted of the sexual assault. And he went to prison for six years. Not a very long time. No, not a long time. But when you're 19 years old, that's probably, to do six years is probably no joke at 19. And definitely longer than some of the other terms we've had to do.

Yeah. That's what I was going to say. I think it's somewhere between a slap on the wrist that we talk about in some episodes and where you'd like to see it. Because what is the right number? I don't know that that we always know what the right number should be. But when somebody says, you know, they've committed a horrible sexual assault and they beat a woman and they did all this. And then you and I find out that they did what? Three months.

Yeah. Suspended sentence, time served. That's not right. We know that's not right. Is six years right? I don't know. But it's better than nothing time already served. Exactly. Probation. By 1953, Peter was out of prison and he was living in Glasgow. And over the next couple of years, everything seemed to go pretty well that we know of, right, in his life. He had served his time. He had a job as a as a carpenter at one point. He also worked as a gas pipe fitter at other points. But he had an apartment.

He had a car. And he had a woman in his life. I mean, you got to figure he's still in his 20s, right? Got a long life ahead of him. Sure. Can settle down, can be happy. Try to make the best of it. Sure.

And he actually got engaged to this woman. Her name was Ann O'Hara. But I talked about Peter growing up, right? people thought he was odd. He craved attention. He wanted to be the center of attention. One of the things that came out about him was that he was fascinated by American gangsters. So we're talking John Dillinger, Al Capone, people like that. Dillinger was fascinating. He was. Yeah. The problem with Manuel, though, is I think he saw himself as one of these gangster-like figures. And you, apparently,

he would sit in bars and just tell stories to people. Stories that put him in this like bigger than life category. He would tell stories about his heroics in the war. Oh, those type of stories. Yeah. Even when he wasn't even in the war. Right. The problem was he wasn't in the war.

He never even put on a uniform. He had stories about his connections to London's criminal underworld. Yeah, well, I'm connecting. connected to the Dayton Underworld. As you should be, as the sausage king of Dayton. That's right. You're the, that's how I move it. Quasi ipso facto leader of the Dayton underworld.

I put a lot of factos in there for it. But none of this existed, right? These are all just made up stories to make people think he was either more interesting, more of a badass, whatever you want to call it. To me, it seemed as though throughout his life, Peter Manuel wanted to seem to others to be more than what he was, wanted people to think he was something better than what he was, more interesting than what he was.

Well, I would say it's probably about at least half of the conversations you're going to hear at a bar. That's true. That's true. Yeah. I mean, if you're going to a bar expecting a lot of truth telling, you're probably in the wrong place. Absolutely.

Not going to turn out too good. Maybe go to the hookah lounge. Maybe you get more truth there. I don't know. Is that where they tell the truth? I don't know. Have you been a hookah lounge? No, no.

I know what it is, but I've never been. It looks like it might be fun. Huka. Yeah, I don't know. I don't smoke, so. Do the hookah. Now, maybe it had something to do with Peter's short stature. He was five foot four.

So there are some people that have theorized that, you know, all of these lies, these exaggerations, they were in some way compensations for his height. I don't know if that's true or not, but there is some stuff out there about that. All right, Gibbs, let's take a quick break to talk about our sponsors. Hey, can listening make you a better parent, better leader, maybe even a better person? Listening can do a lot. It can inspire you to start something new. There's never been a better time to start listening on Audible.

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Fill out a questionnaire and get matched with a counselor you'll love. BetterHelp.com slash T-Cat. Then we get to 1955. Peter's fiancé and O'Hara breaks off their engagement. And there are a lot of people that believe this was the impetus for his murders. Because everything starts from here. I mean, on the very day that she broke off the engagement, Peter went out on the hunt. He abducted a woman named Mary McLaughlin at knife point.

And it's been said that, Mary looked very similar to his fiance and Manuel held a knife to Mary's throat and he actually threatened to cut off her head. He attempted to sexually assault her. But Mary was able to, I'll call it a combination of talk her way out of and fight off Peter Manuel. So I think she talked him down. I think she was able to fight him off some. But the main point is, that she was able to get away. Luckily for her. Luckily for her.

But of course, she's going to go right to police and say, you know, hey, here, this guy attacked me. He threatened to kill me. He tried to sexually assault me. And Peter was charged with the crime. But in court, he defended himself. And there's a little foreshadowing here because this is going to happen later on as well. But this time, he won.

The jury did not. convict him of the crime. And I think, you know, extremely rough on a couple of different counts, Gibbs, number one, for the victim of that crime. Number two, for what we know is about to happen. You know, in those situations, you just, you wonder how much of what is going to come, the carnage that's going to happen, how much of it would have been prevented had Peter Manuel been convicted of this crime? I agree 100%. I'm sure it would have been greatly reduced.

No, there's no doubt. Because it's not that much later that Manuel commits his first murder. Happened in early January, 1956. 17-year-old Anne Neelans left her home in Glasgow, and she never returned. Her body was found a day or two later on the fifth hole of the East Kilbride golf course. Took her out on the golf course. Yeah, she had been beaten. Her skull had been smashed in.

So at some point on the night she was killed, Anne encountered Peter Manuel. He murdered her by caving in her skull with some type of iron bar. He took off with Anne's watch, her earrings, her belt, her purse, all of that was missing. But police determined that she had not been sexually assaulted. So this was just a crime of anger or robbery. Robbery for sure. And there are going to be a lot of people over the years that say that's one of the main motives of Peter Manuel. He always robs his victims of something.

Now, I don't believe that he just went around killing people to rob them. Yeah. I think there was more to it and we'll talk about that. Sure. But it was definitely a component. Well, and you know the police are going to want to go talk to him about this. They know he's in the area. Yeah, I think pretty early on.

He was at the top of the list or on police radar. We kind of mentioned it, right? No matter where he went, there was this cloud kind of hanging over Peter Manuel when it came to the police. They knew he had done all of these things. So essentially, anytime something happened, he was one of the first individuals that police want to talk to. He's always like the top suspect. Yeah.

Yeah. And anything. Probably had his tourney on. Well, if they had a speed dial. I was going to say, we're in the 50s. I don't know if they had speed dial, but I think speed dial was what, just how fast you could rotate the little wheel. Yeah.

With your finger. Yeah. That was, that was called speed dialing. You know, today we'd be in trouble if we got locked up. Yeah, you get one phone call. I don't know anybody's number. No. Like, uh, because it's in your contact.

Yeah. I need my phone. I'm sorry you can't have your phone. Well, then I'm not going to be able to call anybody. And actually, you know, I'm probably even totally way off because in the 50s, I don't even think you would be dialing a number. I think you would just be ringing up the operator and telling them who you wanted, you know,

what number you wanted to be connected to, don't you think? Yeah, late 50s or 60. My mom was a switchboard operator. So, yeah, a damn good one, too. I bet she was. I bet she was at the top of her field. She was the head of the, uh, switchboard operation.

There's only one. She was the only one. No, sorry, Mom. So police did bring him in for questioning. One of the things they noticed was that he had some scratches on his face. Never a good sign. Never a good sign when you are looking for an attacker, a murderer. So we mentioned that he kept getting hauled in all the time.

There was a report that he'd been hauled into the police department, something like 47 times. Wow. Over the years. Probably had his own coffee mug there. Maybe. But he earned it. It wasn't like this wasn't earned.

He had done so much stuff. He had quite a rap sheet. So anytime there was a break in, assault, we better talk to Peter Manuel. They're playing the odds, right? Sure. But Peter had an alibi for the night that Ann Neelan's was murdered. and it was supplied by his father who told authorities that Peter was home with the family that night

when Anne Neelan's was murdered. Now that's going to turn out to be a lie, but this threw police off. It's a loyal family. And I mentioned he had a very good relationship with his father. What I should have added was the relationship was so good, the bond was so strong that his father was willing to lie. for him to police. So eight months go by before Peter struck again. This time he broke into the home of 49-year-old William Watt, his 45-year-old wife, Marion, and their 16-year-old daughter, Vivian. But William wasn't home. He was away on a fishing trip, but also in the house was Marion's younger

sister, Margaret. So there were three women in the house, two adults, one 16 year old, Manuel broke in and shot all three of them. Right in the head. Right. Point blank at very close range in the back of the head while they slept. And it was their housekeeper that found the three the next morning in their beds. There were signs according to the police that the 16 year old Vivian had been sexually assaulted. And I think very quickly, Gibbs.

the police thought, we better talk to Peter Manuel. There's a chance that he had something to do with these murders. And they try. It's not like they didn't try to find evidence on him. They tried. They just couldn't. And add on to that the fact that he had another alibi for police when they came to talk to him. So they like him for some of this stuff.

But he keeps falling off the radar because he's got an alibi. Well, he's got this. Yeah. the loyal family helping him out. And they just don't have anything that can pin him to the murders. But then he gets busted for burglary, gets convicted on a burglary charge, goes to jail. So I think that also kind of caused him to fall off of the radar, you know, out of sight, out of mind.

He's in jail. The police are moving on to other suspects. And the person that they move on to or they, they turn. their attention to is the husband, William, who had been on the fishing trip. So a couple of things. Police didn't think that he showed enough grief after being told of the murders. They, you know, they brought him back to identify the bodies. They just didn't think he acted the way a grieving husband should have. Father should act. But we've talked about that. Gibbs, right? No, not everybody handles all that stuff the same way. Yeah, I think me and you both.

would handle it probably differently. We would. And I think it's very dangerous to pin everything onto that. I mean, it's a factor just like everything else is. But to give it all of the weight like maybe they did in this situation, I think it's pretty dangerous. I mean, if I was out celebrating, if I was like giving a cards out, you know, people when they came in, you know, hey, I didn't do it, but hey, one less person to worry about in this

world or whatever. That would be. What kind of cards are you giving out? I don't know. Welcome to my party card. No. Have you ever thrown a party? No, I don't throw parties. I have parties. Okay. When you've had these parties in the past, have you always handed out cards to your guests that say, welcome to my party? I'm just curious, because I've never heard of that. No. Okay. I'm just checking what they might do in Scotland. Because maybe I'm, maybe I'm doing it wrong. Hey, we got a buddy that when you go to his parties, he hands you a solo cup and a track. So you pour your own drink and plastic cup and you take everything with you when you leave your trash and all. Actually, he's pretty smart.

Because he doesn't have to deal with all that. I don't think that's a bad idea at all. Yeah. But in this case, right? So they start, the police start focusing on William Watt, but he has an alibi too. And it can be corroborated by the owners of the hotel that he was staying at. And police check on it. And they say, yeah, he was here.

But they want him. They want him to be the killer. Sure. And so I think the police, they really don't buy his alibi. Now, why they bought Peters and not Williams, I think that's a question to ask yourself, because they make the trip out to this hotel and back. And they figure out that round trip, you can do it in about four hours. So I think the thought process there was, well, how good is the alibi when somebody

can, you know, two hours here, two hours back, you're home, you commit the murders, you're back before, you know, the next morning before anybody wakes up. Now, what didn't help William was that two different people picked him out of the lineup. That's not good. That's never good. You know, both of these people said that they saw him that night on the route, somewhere between the hotel and his house. One guy. One guy. I was a ferryman who said that he transported Watt and his car that very night. Hmm. That's damaging.

The other thing that really kind of hurt him was that he admitted to police that he had been unfaithful to his wife. That didn't look good. It's bad on his character. It is. I mean, it all amounted to him being charged with all three murders and they put him in jail. But this is where things got very strange.

because it's not long after William Watt goes to jail that his lawyer began receiving mail from none other than Peter Manuel. So Peter is sending William's attorney these letters from the jail he's in. And in the letters, he's saying, you know what? There's an inmate here with me that has confessed to the murders that William Watt is being held for. And Peter Manuel was able to provide very specific details of the murders because he was there. Right. He was the murderer. Yeah, so he had those details. But what it made it seem like was as though he was able to corroborate this man's story when in fact it was his story and he was there. So it was

about 67 days that police kept William in jail until they decided that they just they couldn't make it stick. They didn't want to move forward with prosecuting him. They let him go. Peter Manuel spent about a year incarcerated and then he too was released. But it gets strange again because after they're both released, Peter Manuel sought out a face-to-face meeting with what? He wanted to tell him once again about the real murderers. But we know who the real murderer was. It was, you know, it was Peter your manual. Yeah. You would think at that point, you just kind of, you know, things are quiet.

I'm just going to leave it alone. But not this guy, right? He wants to sit down, look this man in the face after killing his wife. Yeah. Killing his 16 year old daughter and killing his sister-in-law, his wife's sister. The other thing that's interesting is no coincidence, right, that things were pretty quiet around the area as far as murders go while Peter Manuel was locked up. It was always going to be some murders, but nothing like what they had been seeing.

What they had been seeing. But after he got out, that wouldn't be the case. It wasn't long before he found his next victim. He murdered 36-year-old cab driver Sidney Dunn on December 8th, 1957. And they would find Dunn's body sometime later. Manuel had slit his throat and put a bullet in the back of his head. Manuel's next victim was 17-year-old high schooler Isabel Cook. December 27, 1957, Isabel left her home to attend a dance in a neighboring town.

She never came home. Police later found her underwear out in the field, but they still couldn't find her body. this sounds like it could be an unsolved case, you know, but we know, of course, what happens. No, I think you're right. I think it very well could have been an unsolved because we're going to get into it later. He's going to lead them to her body, authorities.

But if they hadn't caught him or if he chose not to say, it'd still be... Maybe it could have been an unsolved still. But just a few days later, Peter murdered three members of... of the Smart family. So you had 45-year-old Peter Smart, his wife, 43-year-old Doris Smart, and their son, 11-year-old Michael. They had just celebrated New Year's Eve, which in Scotland, I guess, is called Hogmane. Hogmane. I'm going with Hogmane. Hogmane. And I had

never heard of that before. So I had to look it up. And I guess it varies a little bit throughout the country, but basically it involves celebrations, but also gift giving with a very special gift given to what is known as the first foot or the first footer. Okay. This is the first person to come to your house in the new year. And it was almost like people kept their doors open, maybe on a chain or something. Well after midnight, going into the. the early morning to see who would come to their house. That's kind of the idea I got. Now, how true

that is, I don't know. It talked about guests bringing coal and then it would be your obligation to give them a drink. Seems like a pretty good deal. Yeah. Fair trade. Fair trade. Give me some coal. I'll give you a drink. What's wrong with a little bartering. But Peter Manuel shot all three members of the smart family in their home on January 1st. But this was, one was different. He didn't leave right away. He didn't commit the murders and then just take off. He stayed in their house. He ate their food. He slept in their beds. Are we talking about? I know it sounds like the three. Yeah. The big bad wolf. Was it the three little pigs? What are you thinking? Sounds like the bears. Three little bears. Oh, three little bears. Yeah.

Except he didn't eat any porridge. He might have. I don't know. He ate their food for sure. Well, there you go. Maybe he did. He fed their cat some salmon. I saw that in an article. But I think the one thing that really got to me is the fact that he slept in their beds. But he didn't move their bodies. He just pushed them to the side and got into bed with them and went to sleep.

Weird. A little odd to willingly sleep in the same bed as a dead body. No way, man. Couldn't do it. Someone that you've just killed. he didn't have to do that, right? He could have moved the bodies. He could have slept on the couch, but he didn't.

Yeah. He purposefully slept in the beds with the victims. Then he stole some money, some brand new banknotes that Peter Smart had obtained for the holiday. And he left in the family's car. And it's really these bank notes that kind of lead to the downfall of Peter Manuel. Now, one thing is. the smart family was supposed to be on vacation. So it wasn't right away that people thought something was wrong. It took a while for their friends, Peter Smart's employer to become concerned. Obviously,

that's not going to happen until after the time when they're supposed to be home from this vacation. So police are alerted and it was on January 6th that they found the smart's car abandoned. Didn't take them long to figure out who's it was. And when they went to their house, they found all three members of the family still in their beds with a gunshot wound to the head, each of them. So who do you think they suspect of this one, Gibbs? Well, who else could they? You think Peter Manuel? I think so.

Me too. But they don't bring him in right away this time. They're going to change it up. Instead of tipping him off, they're going to follow him and try to. to gather some information on what he's been up to. And they learned a few things. They learned that he had been seen driving around in the smart family car the day they were killed.

Apparently, there's a story that he even gave a ride to a police officer who was trying to make his way to work in Glasgow gave him a ride in the smart family's car. It's ballsy. That is ballsy. Like, hey, need a ride? He gave a ride to a police officer in the car that belonged to the family he just massacred. They also learned that all of a sudden Peter had some money. And this was something that he didn't normally have.

He was in one of his favorite bars. And instead of, you know, having to borrow or bum as he normally did, all of a sudden, he was flush with cash. And not just that, but he was buying drinks for other people. If you did that, Gibbs, I would know right away. Something was wrong. Oh. If you were.

If you just saw me get my wallet out. Yes. Yeah. I'd call 911. Like something's up. I don't know who's been robbed or possibly murdered, but your suspect is sitting here next to me. Yeah.

Because his wallet's out and it's not dusty. But that's, you know, it's essentially what happened. It was so strange. to those around him that knew him. You know, one of these people alerted police that something was up. Because you got to think, right? By this point,

the news of the murders is, you know, probably all over the paper. Yeah. The previous murders had made a splash. So a lot of people were probably pretty wary. Then you have this guy who rarely had any money at all. And all of a sudden,

he's making it rank. I don't know if they made it rain back in the 50s. Oh, they probably did. He's doing the version of making it rain. And it would, like I said, it would be these banknotes that police would eventually trace back to Peter Smart. And it really didn't take him long. It was January 14th that they arrested Peter at his parents' home. And obviously they bring him in for questioning.

But I think at that point, he had probably been questioned so many times. To him, it was just like going to a second job. He probably didn't have a lot of qualms about it just because he had gotten out of, wriggled out of so many different things over the years, talked his way out of. He probably thought, you know what, it's not going to be any big deal. I'll tell them this, I'll tell them that. I'll be back home before you know it. Yep.

Before the haggis gets cold. Before the haggis is cold. But this time's a little different. They had a little bit of evidence. to throw at him, they questioned him four hours. And in the face of this evidence that they presented to him, he ultimately confessed to the eight murders. And when he confessed to the murder of Isabel Cook, Manuel said, I tore off her clothes, tied something around her neck, and choked her. I then carried her up a lane into a field and dug a hole,

with a shovel and buried her. But he didn't stop there. He even led them to the farm where he buried Cook. Which we kind of talked about briefly. Yeah, you're right. This is the reason why it didn't turn into an unsolved case, right? Because he's going to lead police to her body. And it was dark.

They were doing this at night. It was very dark. They had to use the police car headlights to illuminate the area. So you have Peter Manuel. walking around this farm field and he's pointing out things he's telling police where to find her shoes he said you know there's one over here there's one over here and then all of a sudden he stopped and police said okay all right tell us where she is and he said she's right here I'm standing on top of her that's eerie it is ear to me so police dug down about three feet and they found the body of Isabel Cook.

Manuel also led police to locations where he had thrown some of the guns into the river that he used to kill these individuals. Police were able to recover them. It's not looking good, Gibbs for old Peter Manuel. Not looking good at all. Or young Peter. He's actually pretty young at this point. So he's charged with eight killings and Nielands,

the three members of the what family, Isabel Cook and the three members of the smart family. He was not charged with the murder of the cabby. And I think I mentioned it up front. At the time, newspapers called Peter Manuel the country's worst murderer in 120 years. It's pretty bad. It is. A name you really want to be stuck with?

I think it's shocked people. I don't know if we'd be shocked today because we've heard it about. a lot, but in the 1950s in Scotland, they were shocked. And they should have been, really. That somebody could, you know, commit this high number of horrific crimes. They were also shocked when Peter didn't plead guilty. He had essentially confessed to everything. He told him where to find the murder weapons.

He told them where to find Isabel Cook's body. But when it came time to plead, he pleaded not guilty. Well, his attorney probably got a hold of him by then. right and said, hey, we're going to do not guilty. Yeah, I'm sure you're right. So the trial began on May 12, 1958. Do they wear those wigs, the attorneys and the judge? I don't know.

Probably. Yeah, it's pretty cool. You like those wigs, huh? Yeah. Male, female, it doesn't matter. They all have to wear the wigs when they're in, when court is in session. It's old school. It is old school.

For sure. Yeah. So the prosecution called witness after witness. right, to talk about Peter's actions on and around the days of the murders. A lot of the testimony centered around his confession. But the defense didn't want the confession introduced. And they argued before the judge without the jury present that Peter's confession had been coerced by police. Yeah, but the detectives and the police will say, it was given freely.

We didn't coerce anything. Yeah, one detective in particular guy by the name of McKearce. Neil, he had been with Peter, you know, very early on at the station. And he testified that manual said, quote, if you bring my father and mother here after I have made a clean breast of it to them, I will clear up everything for you. And I'll tell you where the cook girl is buried. I would think that would be pretty powerful testimony because that's essentially exactly what happened. Exactly. I mean, how did they find this victim is a Bell Cook if Peter Manuel didn't lead them to it.

How did they find the murder weapons if he didn't lead them to him? So the judge heard all the testimony about the confession and ultimately he ruled it admissible. And the jury came back in. They got to hear all about it. The prosecution called experts that had examined Manuel's confession and they said that this guy just didn't have an ounce of pity for his victims. he didn't show any regret for what he had done. They said that Peter Manuel killed because it made him feel powerful over his victims.

He killed because it made him feel good. So that's why I kind of go back Gibbs to a couple of different reasons. People gave for, you know, why Peter committed the murders. I think robbery was one because he did rob people after he killed them. Sure. But I don't, I personally don't. think that was the big one. I think it was the thrill?

I do. I think it was the fact that he wanted to be all powerful. Go back to him wanting to emulate Al Capone, John Dillinger. He wanted to be this gangster. I think he got a rush when he killed people and he liked it. And I think he kept on doing it because he liked it. So at his trial, Peter had two attorneys defending him. But on the 10th day of the trial,

trial after 140 witnesses had already testified. That's a lot of witnesses. It is a lot. He fired his attorneys and made the announcement that he was going to defend himself. There it comes. So I had kind of said it was a foreshadowing that he did it early on. Yeah. So 10 days in, the majority of the trial is over and he says, you know what?

I got this. I got this. I'm going to do it all on my own. And again, I think one of the thoughts. around why he would do this is because he wanted to be the center of attention at all times. He felt like he wasn't playing a big enough part in the trial. And his attorneys were getting to do all the talking. He wasn't doing the talking.

It was all flashbacks to his early school years. Yeah. I really think that that was a huge part of it. So here's a man that had dropped out of school at a very early age, probably didn't go past 11, 12 years old, he's now making the decision that he's going to duke it out with, you know, the prosecutors, the detectives, the witnesses. This never goes good, Gibbs, right? Never.

How many times we talked about this? It never goes well. But the amazing thing is that most of the reporting on this case said that Peter Manuel was actually very good in court. even the judge reportedly said that he was astonished at how well Manuel did in court with virtually no experience. It's pretty amazing. Apparently he had been spending all of his nights in his cell reading law books. It must have been reading the right ones too to cover where he was at. Yeah. I mean, one of the newspapers, you know, back during that time period reported that in one stretch,

he spoke over 20,000 words in about an hour and a half. Wow. 152 minutes was what they actually said. 20,000 words. Unhardo. At another point in the trial, he spoke for four hours straight. Again, just something else that you have in common with the serial killer. This guy was very talkative.

The gift of gab? You shared the gift of gab with Peter Manuel. That I cannot deny. I. And why would you want to? And why would I want to? So his defense was basically to say that police had conspired against him. They had coerced the confession out of him. But he's the one, right, that's going to get to cross-examine each and every detective,

some of the officers, all these people that he had come into contact with or had anything to do with his confession. So what he said was that the. detectives told him that if he didn't confess, they would ruin his entire family. Oh, really? Yeah, not just him, his entire family. Take the whole family down. Yep.

During the trial, he tried to cast a shadow back on William Watt for the three murders of his family. Emmanuel said to the jury, the only reason that he was even in jail was because he was looked at because of his previous run-ins. Like we mentioned, right? He's on the radar every time something comes up. Sure. Has to be.

And then at a certain point, he called his mother to the stand to try to get her to say that police had coerced him both at the house and in the prison. Because she was, she was there in two different instances. Right. But his mother was extremely religious. And she said under cross that. Her son had said, I don't know what made me do these things. Because obviously not only does he get to ask her questions, but the other side does as well.

Sure. And she wasn't going to lie. It's pretty powerful too. It is. I mean, I think it caught him off guard because, you know, it was reported that he jumped up and said, you only thought you heard that mother. You know, she's on the witness. Yeah.

Sounds like Norman Bates. Yeah. but she gave it right back to him and said, no, I'm sure I heard that. But no way is that the weirdest part of this trial because Peter Manuel decided to testify. And you've got to think about what type of scene this would have been. You're going to testify and not to respond to his own questions? Yes. Okay.

It must have looked like someone talking to themselves out loud back and forth. I feel like it would be like a Jim Carrey type of movie. Exactly. He literally had to ask the questions as the defense attorney and then turn right around and give the answers to the questions that he just asked. And he was on the witness stand for six hours. So this is a six hour marathon of Jim Carrey going back and forth. Now, part of that time he was being cross examined by the prosecution, but a lot of it was just him talking, asking, ask, asking and answering questions. He spent a lot of time going through each one of the charges, denying that he committed each one of the murders. And at the very end, Peter Manuel gave his summation to the jury. It was said that he went nonstop for two and a half hours.

You got to be kidding me. Like barely even took a breath. Speaking at what they calculated was a rate of 200 words per minute. Wow. 200 words per minute. If you're a great typist, you're probably in the what range? 90. Probably 90. That would be a very fast typist. 90, 100 probably. Now, I think any of us could say 200 words in a minute, but to average that for two and a half hours. Yeah, I don't think I can, but. Well, I don't know. You're so talkative. Yeah. And so crisp and clear. That too. I just wish I could go back. I'd love to sit in the courtroom. I'd love to just watch it. It would have been a good one.

But in the end, he couldn't save himself because on May 29th, 1958, the jury deliberated for about two and a half hours before finding Peter Manuel guilty of seven of the eight murders. So they did find that there was not sufficient evidence to convict him of the murder of Anne Neelan. And he was not tried for the murder of cab driver Sidney Dunn. But he was convicted on seven. And at the sentencing, the judge said, quote, ye shall hang by the neck in the yard of Barlini jail until ye are dead. And may God have mercy on your soul.

And ye did it. You, ye bastard. You bastard. Well, you talk about old school. That's pretty old school. That is pretty old school. Ye shall hang. So he's convicted.

He's sentenced. They're taking him out of, the courtroom and it was reported that there were hundreds of women lined up outside the courtroom. They were booing. They were yelling at him, calling him all kinds of names as he was led from the courthouse to the prison van. The women of Scotland did not like Peter Manuel one bit. They thought he was the bookie man. And I think in the 1950s, he was. I think so too for Scotland. I mean, you think about mothers telling their kids stories about maybe not all the details, but stories of the boogeyman, Dahmer, Gacy, Ted Bundy.

In Scotland, they would have been telling the story of Peter Manuel. So he's in prison awaiting his execution. And I think I talked about this up front. While he's in there, he reportedly confessed to 10 more murder. So that right there alone would put. him in the 18-19 range, if all of those are true. Right. And like we always talk about, is there some that he didn't want to admit to?

I would say very likely. Well, I'd have to agree with you for sure. And I really want to point out the timeline here because it blows me away. So convicted on May 29, less than a month later, his appeal was heard and dismissed. And then on July 11th, he was hanged. So about a month and a half from conviction to carrying out his capital sentence. I mean, how far away are we now from that? Especially here in the United States.

Very, very far. I mean, a lot of countries don't even have capital sentences anymore, right? Exactly. But in a lot of places here, we do. But like you and I talk about, it can take 20, sometimes 30 years. from the time somebody is convicted until their sentence is actually carried out. Peter Manuel was buried in an unmarked grave inside the prison walls. And after he was hanged, an inquest jury found him guilty of killing cab driver Sidney Dunn.

So even though he was dead, they still went through and looked at the evidence, presented it to a jury. And they found him guilty. And I think one of the most damaging pieces of evidence, evidence in that was a button found in the cab that matched buttons from a jacket owned by Peter Manuel. So based on that, they convicted him. But I do think there are a lot of people that are not sure about that one in particular. But we know all the other ones. So that's, I think they were probably okay with that. Oh, yeah. I don't think it matters, you know, but there are a lot of people online that do not believe he actually killed this cab driver. But there was a

was some other evidence. So it was all circumstantial. Apparently he was looking for a job in the city where this cab driver was. He was known to have been there a day or two before the murder. So there was there was some other circumstantial evidence for sure. But maybe one of the most interesting or, I don't know, confusing things about this case is that almost all of the documents surrounding the case of Peter Manuel are sealed. Really? Like it's almost like JFK.

So in 1958, the decision was made that they were going to seal everything for 75 years. So that means the documents won't be able to be fully viewed until 23. Wow. We're seeing Jimmy Hoffa stuff before his. I just found that very strange. Don't know why that would need to be that either. And I think that, you know, just like it does in the JFK thing, it invites conspiracy theorists, right, to talk about, well, why would they do that if they

didn't have anything to hide? Was there aliens involved? I don't know. Roswell, yeah, something. Might have been. But Gibbs, I do think this is another case where you can see the progression of an individual in committing increasingly violent crimes, right, over time. You and I run into that a lot.

We do. They start out with something petty, you know, petty theft. They graduate to this. The next thing you know it's sexual assaults. The next thing you know, they are murdering. And sleeping with dead bodies. And sleeping with dead bodies. There are a number of times in the case of Peter Manuel where I think he could have been stopped and wasn't.

Now, again, that's all Monday morning quarterbacking. You can do that all day long. Of course, yeah. But I think there. were some times, you know, that that one sexual assault that he somehow defended himself out of, by the time he was executed, he had spent more than half of his time on earth incarcerated in either some type of jail, juvenile facility, something. There were definitely signs. Yeah. When it came to manual that this was a person who had issues that needed to be dealt with,

but they never were. Now, I don't know if those were mental health issues or not, but he had issues that needed to be dealt with. Probably back then they just put some leeches on you, blood you out. Well, we know mental health back then was nowhere near what it is today. We know that. But that's it. That is the case of Peter Manuel.

And yet I'm still hungry for some hoggous. Huggis. He's a bad guy. I think in any era, but when you look at him through the lens of 1950s, it makes him somehow even more of a monster. I don't know if that makes sense or not. Yeah, because you picture neighborhoods and people being like Mr. Rogers. Right. The guy's dropping off the milk and the crates and, hey, Jimmy, how you doing? I'm doing good. How about you? Everybody's happy. Everybody's got a crew cut and I don't know. There's something about it.

It makes it seem worse. Not that it wouldn't be horrific today, but. All right, we got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Yeah. Hi, this is Crystal in Amarillo, Texas, and I discovered your podcast a few weeks ago and find it so interesting. I listen to it nearly every day at work.

But I had to call in and leave a voicemail because on today's episode, which was not current, I'm behind. And I think this was about the Bernie, David and Catherine Bernie episode. But anyway, during the voicemail part, it just cracked me up because Gibby said, y'all, and I'm driving home in my car and I just commented by myself. Oh, wow. I didn't. I thought that was a southern thing. So I thought that was really cool.

And then the same thing, and another voicemail, you made a reference to Rand McNally map. The, if the maps. Anyway, my boyfriend is named Randy and I call him Rand. So I thought that was really cool because you'll go. went on to say how cool Rand was as a name or a word. Anyway, so I thought that was voice-malworthy. But I love the show. Keep it up.

And I just have to say that I am team Gibby Ferg, which is both of you, because the two of you just banter on together and make it work. And that's what is great. So anyway, have fun. All right. Awesome. Team Gibby Ferg. I've never heard that. Me neither.

I've heard Fibby. I've heard Kirby. Really? Yeah. That's pretty cool. I never heard Gibby for it. What she didn't know is y'all that we had this plan that we would talk about Rand back in that day, knowing one day she would be a listener. Yeah.

And hear it and be like, huh, there must be talking about my Rand. My boyfriend. It was very calculated. And I remember you saying it. I know. I said, watch what happens. So she was cracking up about the y'all. So we are from Southern Ohio.

Yes, right. And we're about as y'all as you can get this far north. I'll say that that way. That's true. I'm ringing from our show about two months ago. And now I'm just listening back to back. I'm an insomniac. So it keeps me company at night.

I would have known a lot about a lot of the kids. But you don't really have people to debate them with. So it's really cool listening to you guys. Like a previous listener, I too have a crush on Gibby's voice. What you're doing is really interesting years ago. I'm sure if you guys looked into that, you will be able to find something interesting there. Anyway, thanks for the company, thanks for the crack. Top of the morning to you and keep your own time ticking.

Bye. Oh, top of the morning to you. Exactly. Yeah. She's got a crush on your voice. Well, we'll hear a lot of people say that. Thank you. They don't hear it enough, but when they do hear it...

They just play back. Absolutely. Absolutely. She'll be happy with this one because it's like, then... It's like right next door, this podcast, this episode, right next door. Scotland. You're saying Scotland is right next door to Ireland? I'm pretty sure it is.

Yeah, I mean, there's water in between the two, but. But, you know, I mean, they are. Yeah, it's about as close as we can get without being in Ireland. I would, I would agree with that. Yeah. But if we were in Ireland, it'd be cool, too. And we can kiss the Blarney. Is the Blarney or is the Barney stone?

It's Blarney. Blarney. With an L. Yeah. I don't think you should be kissing anything. Yeah. Disinfect. That fever blister you got.

Disinfective. They'll be like, sorry, sir. Sorry. You've got a lot of kiss to rock. Actually, you know what? You can't come into Ireland. Yeah. Not with that.

We're kicking you out now. Hey, Mike. Hey, Gibby. It's Andrea in Lafayette, Louisiana. I was just calling because I went on vacation to Tennessee. And they had the Alcatraz East True Crime Museum. Pigeon Forge, Tennessee, and it is amazing. And I just wanted to let all of the other listeners know that this museum's amazing.

There were so much stuff I couldn't even look at it all. Super informative, kid-friendly. They have an exhibit called The Heist, where kids can, like, dip beneath lasers and go through this laser maze to steal an artifact. They have Ted Bundy's DW Beetle. They have John Wayne Gasey's clown costume. costumes, signatures and letters from other serial killers, Charles Manson's guitar. They're super informative things about pirates, the wild, the old west, the medieval ages.

It's just super fascinating. And I think any true crime buff would love it. So Alcatraz East Pigeon Ford, check it out if you're in the area. And keep your own time ticket. And take your kids through it because it's kid's friendly. It's kid friendly. Let me introduce you. This is Ted.

No, just we're joking with you. But this is a great clown John Wayne Gacy. Yeah. Maybe we should do a meet-up and pigeon forge. That would be fun. We'll all meet up. We'll all go through this cool museum, true crime museum. Yeah.

Then we can hit the good old restaurants that are down there. And then we can play put-put on the side of the hill. Do the race cars. Take that tram that goes up the mountain. Yeah. Do that thing where you hold on and you slide down the rope really fast. What do they call that? I call it rope burn.

I don't know what you call. No. You know, when you go from one tower to the next tower, what do you call that? Ziplining? Ziplining. That's it. Yeah. Zipline.

When you slide down the rope really fast. Yeah. I was going to get there. Yeah, my kids like ziplining a lot. Yeah, we'll do some zip line. Hi, Mike and Gibby. My name's Michelle. I'm calling after listening to Diane, and I can't remember her last name now, Stowe,

and I've been a nurse, the first, uh, Stoughty, that's what it is. Being a nurse, my first question was, I wonder if United Healthcare actually went in, and checked her patients panel to see if she wasn't killing patients first before she killed her family. I was just wondering if you read anything like that. Anyway, I love your show. I love everything. You guys are great. I'm Team Fergie mostly, but Gibby makes me laugh.

Yeah, so that's it. Have a great day and keep your own time ticking. Woo-hoo! You couldn't have been both? You had to say Team Fergie. Well, I'm Team Fergie, too, but Gibby makes me laugh. Well, so we're just alike. There you go.

I will say, I didn't say it up front, but we got a lot of feedback on the Diane and Rachel Stouty episode. Yeah. I think like myself, and I think you too Gibbs, but a lot of people are really weirded out, for lack of a better word, over these women. Number one, what they did and how vulnerable their victims were. and the fact that they were family members, but number two, the coldness.

I heard a lot about that. You know, in the clips, you can really hear it. There just was nothing behind their eyes inside their souls. I just get worried when you trust somebody that you should be trusting that, you know, they're going to give you poisonous food. I know. I mean, it's like, like you said, hey, I got you some Arby's when you get here.

I'm like, okay, so I went by Arby's before I came here. And when I sat down, I traded the sub you had and put my, out there and then just threw the other, I'll throw the other one away because I don't know. You know why I know you wouldn't do that because you're too cheap to go pay $9 for a meal that you're not going to eat. I'll just roll the dice. Yeah, you know. How bad could it be? Yeah. But as far as answer that question, I never saw anything about one way or the other, whether they checked. I'm sure they had to do something, but I never saw anything about them going back through.

any records to see if anyone else had died mysteriously at the hands of, especially Diane, with her at one point being a nurse. I don't know, you know, it was listed that she was a clinical supervisor. Yeah. So I don't know if she was a nurse and then eventually got to the point where she wasn't actually seeing patients. I'm not sure what a clinical supervisor is. Probably just somebody supervises the clinical studies of clinicals.

Of clinicals? Yeah. All right. Is we at mailbag? Oh, mailbag. Yep. Barbie, Barbie. Hey, Barbie.

Who was turned on to the show by her co-worker Mark. Thanks, Mark. So, big shout out to Mark. She sent in some poker chips from the Pacific Northwest. Really? Yeah. Pacific Northwest. What would that?

What states would those be, Mike? You know, Washington, Oregon. Yeah. I think these mostly came from Seattle, but I called it the Pacific Northwest to see if you would take the bait. Yeah. I got family in Seattle, so I'm good. All right.

We love you all. That is it for another episode of True Crime All the Time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.