True Crime All The Time - Richard Kuklinski Redux

Episode Date: December 30, 2019

Richard Kuklinski was the subject of the second episode of True Crime All The Time. There was one big problem with it, there was no Gibby. It is the only episode that Gibby was not a part of it and we could not let that stand. So, in a newly researched episode, Mike and Gibby present to you Richard Kuklinski, the way it should have been done.Richard "The Iceman" Kuklinski committed his first murder at the age of 14. In his early days he killed anyone that annoyed or slighted him. He went on to become a mafia hitman and eventually formed his own crime ring. He earned the Iceman moniker for his method of freezing his victims, sometimes for years, in order to confuse law enforcement as to the victim's time of death. Law enforcement believes that the body count of The Iceman could be as high as 200.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise and donation informationAn Emash Digital ProductionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 163 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you? I'm good, man. Doing well. I'm glad to hear it. I hope you had a good Christmas.

Here's the problem. Yeah. You can't actually tell me if you had a good Christmas because we're recording this before Christmas. Well, I think I'll have a good one because I was nice. I wasn't naughty. Well, let's just assume that we both did. Yeah.

And say, yeah, it was great. There you go. Merry Christmas to us. So like I said, we're recording this right before Christmas. And it's such a busy time of the year, man. I had to go out yesterday to the mall area. I wasn't even going to the mall. Oh, really?

Just around it. Oh, that's terrible. And it's gridlock. Yeah. Well, you know where I work. So you know just where I used to work? Where you used to work. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm very familiar with it. Yeah. So just going out to lunch around that area, man, is a nightmare now because the mall's right there. Sure. Yeah. But it doesn't last long. And then before you know, we'll be back to normal.

Yeah. All right, Gibbs. So we have our new Patreon supporters. Okay. Let's go ahead and give our shoutouts. We had Annie Snyder. Hey, Annie. Patricia Lopez.

What's going on, Patricia? Najara Payne. Ooh, Najara. Mm-hmm. Kyle Roost. What's going on, Kyle? Tamara Knight. Hey, thanks, Tamara.

James Simon. What's going on, James? Amanda Hamlin. Hey, Amanda. Catherine Wilms. What's going on, Catherine? Megan Sites. Ooh, megan.

I like that. Daniel Hock. Hawk. Well, you got some phleg in your mouth? Yeah, I had a little something going on there. Carly Fitzgerald. Hey, Carly. Luloo and Oscar.

What's up, Lulu and Oscar? Heather Deluxee. Lina Cunio. Hey, Coonio. Tameran Lee Appalus. Ooh, Apolis. I've never seen that before. Yeah, that's a good one to put in at a restaurant.

Monica Phillips. Hey Monica. Williams Campbell. What's going on, Williams Campbell? Henson Milam. Hey, thanks, Henson. Sylvie. Just Sylvie.

Sherry. Hey, Sherry. Danielle Kunaberte. Ooh, Kunaberti. That's fun to say. It is. I'm going to say that again later today. Just for the fun of it?

Yeah. Yeah. Maybe I had a holiday party or, you know, just random. Just figure out a way to bring it up in conversation. Exactly. And then last but not least, Reese Cowley. Hey, Reese. So we appreciate all that new support.

And then if we go back into the Vault Gibbs, this week we selected Andrea Hendrickson. Wow, that's awesome. Yeah. So a lot of new support, a lot of people Gibbs that have been with us for years and years. And we just appreciate it all. We do. We really do. We had some PayPal support as well.

Kathleen Martin. Hey, Kathleen. Angie Stevenson. Hey, Angie. Julie Brown. What's up, Julie? And Eva's Natura. Terapi.

Nature terrapi. Yeah, that's the second time I've had to say that. Yeah. And I'm still not sure if I'm even close, to be honest with you. I don't know either. I don't know what a nature rapy is. I don't either. So listen, we're taking this week off.

Not really because you and I are sitting here in the studio recording, but essentially, as, as close as you and I can get to taking the week off, that's what we're doing. But we have something very special for our TCAT fans. This is an episode that you and I recorded earlier in the year for Patreon. This was maybe five, six months ago. I don't remember exactly when it came out. We did it for a very specific reason. And that was to correct the second episode that we ever did of true crime all the time.

I did it by myself on Richard Kuklinski. You know, if you think back, Gibbs, that was what, 2016? you and I had done the first episode. And I think, you know, we were kind of still up in the air about, you know, number one, what is this podcast? Number two, is it something that you were wanting to do, right? You were helping me out essentially with the first one. Absolutely.

And so after doing the second one by myself, I think I remember coming into the office and saying, hey, I got to have you, brother, because this is hard to do an episode. by yourself to have no one to talk to. Yeah. It just didn't feel the same. And obviously, the people that have listened to that episode over the years, a lot of them got that same feeling, right? It's not that it's a horrible episode.

No, it's not. But it's not a T-Cat episode. Yeah, it's not the same. It's not the same. Yeah. And what I liked about that is that's when I went, so the first episode, you had me sitting on that rubber made stool. Oh, so now there's a rubber made stool.

Yeah. Yeah. And then that's when the. the wooden slotted chair came into play. You're like, come back, episode three. And I'm like, I can't sit on a rubber made stool. You got to give me something a little bit better than that. So I found this old, as you would put it, wooden slotted.

Yes. Which is still grammatically something I can't wrap my head around. It's a very gibby-like phrase. So, you know, that was the only episode, right, of T-Cat without Gibby. And we just couldn't let that stand. So this is what we did. We went back. We researched the case again completely throughout the original research, did it from scratch.

Yeah. So in addition to you being on the episode, it's also much different. It's much better. You know, our techniques of research and the things that we employ, the tools and all that have developed over time. Right. Have gotten better. So everyone sit back and enjoy what we're calling.

Richard Kuklinski Redux. I like that. I hope everyone does. Yeah. All right, man. Let's get into this episode. I'm really excited. I've always been fascinated by Kuklinski.

And I think, you know, sitting down and doing the episode with you, it's perfect, right? We're talking about a guy that was a family man, wife and kids, but at the same time was killing people, I mean left and right. You know how we always talk about serial killers exaggerating? Sure. I'm not sure how much exaggerating Kiklinski did. I'm sure he did some. I have a feeling he killed a shitload of people.

Oh, I think so. We know so. Which is more than a boatload. More than a boat load in case anybody's wondering. Big boat. And, you know, his reasons for killing, I think some of his victims may have been different than let's say some of the serial killers we've talked about. Yeah.

Then again, maybe not. Could be intertwined. Yeah. I mean, he did, he killed people that annoyed him. He killed people that got in his way. And eventually he got into the contract killing business for the mob. Really, Gibbs, this is a guy that literally made a living out of killing people. Yeah.

Well, there's contract killers everywhere, man. You would know. There's a website for it. I think of you kind of like Deadpool. Yeah. You know, there's that special bar. There is. You get paid or John Wick.

It's like John Wick slash Deadpool. Yeah, you just got to know where to go. Yeah. Got to know the handshake. But to me, you know, just because Kukkensky was killing people for the mob and it was kind of his job, I don't think that means he didn't enjoy it. I think he did enjoy it. Yeah.

I mean, he did it so long that. Yeah. He did it for a long time. Yeah. And, you know, so let's hear a clip. This is Kukkensky being asked in one of the great. HBO documentaries. I think there was two that they did interviewing him. And we'll have some clips from him, but asking him how many people he is killed and what his thoughts were on the

killings. How many people have you killed? I'm an approximate guess. Approximate will go with more than a hundred. How do you feel about telling? I don't. It doesn't bother me. It doesn't bother me at all, I have a feeling one way or the other. So that was Kekyllinsky saying, well, at least 100. Yeah. You know, approximately. Somewhere around there or north of. Yeah, I think in another part, maybe he said 200.

Not in this clip, but in another part. Yeah. Of the interview. But, yeah, I guess that's one of the things about Richard Kiklenski for me is, well, there's a couple. Number one, how many people did this guy really kill? Sure. You know, I do think it's a pretty large number.

I think he said at one point, Gibbs, that he may have killed as many as 50 people before he even got into working with the mob. Before he began. Yeah. Now, I, you know, again, with a guy like this, how much is exaggeration? He likes to talk. He does. But he, if you listen to what he said, I mean, he said, it's no big deal. Mm-mm.

I don't have any feelings about it either way. To him, it's punching the time car, right? Going in, I got a job to do. I'm going to do it. Get done. Go grab me a sandwich. Maybe a beer, go home. It's just all in the day's work.

And I truly feel like that, you know, that's the way he felt. Kind of like maybe you and I might mow the grass. Got to mow the grass. I don't know if I'm that happy about mowing the grass or. Was he happy? I don't know. Was he happy about killing? He said he didn't feel anything.

Yeah, no, I don't think he was happy. I think he was saddie. I think you're right. I think he was just like, something I got to do. Yeah. Let's get it done. Sooner I get it done. The sooner I can get my day going the way I want.

But it's interesting. It's interesting. And again, like I said, it's a little hard to know what the exact truth is with Richard Kikklinsky. Sure. But I do think one thing is for certain. He killed a bunch of people. Yeah. And he was not a guy that you wanted to cross.

And I think him having that attitude. that I don't care either way. That's how you're able to continue to kill people. You can kill those high numbers because you don't have the guilt after a while. Oh, yeah. I don't think he had a single thing eating at him. Yeah. Because if you did, you know you wouldn't be able to continue that.

Or it'd be much harder. Exactly. Yeah, it'd be much harder. But, you know, we're also talking about a guy as an adult, Richard Kikklinsky. He's about 6, 4, 6, 5, maybe win as high as three bills. Man, that's a big, big boy. Yeah, he was a, he was a big Beaufort. And so, like I said, not a guy that you, that you wanted to cross, number one, because he was

an imposing figure. Yeah. And number two, he didn't hesitate to kill people. She's calling Big Beaufort. Yeah, he's Big Beaufort. Walking stick, walking tall or whatever. Yeah, either that or I think like Hardys or something, they have a big Buford. Do they? Yeah, I don't know. I started saying that at one point.

Big Buford. And then there's his nickname, right? We haven't even talked about his nickname yet. the ice man. He's a cold man. Earned because he froze at least one of his victims for a long period of time, maybe years, to throw off, to try to throw off medical examiners. And I say at least one.

I think he did it more, but it happened at least one time. I also think, you mean, it's not why they named, but I think you could call him the ice man because the fact that, you know, he didn't have any emotions, feelings. He was just ice. I agree with you. I think he had ice in his veins. And I think you could call him that because of that as well.

So go ahead. I mean, you could go a third reason. Maybe before every kill, he turned on a little vanilla. Vanilla ice, ice baby. And did that. And that's how he got pumped up. That's the ice man. Now, time-wise, timeline-wise, that's not going to work.

Because vanilla ice wasn't even. No. Yeah. He wasn't around. But I like the. Yeah, I just try to get. Because right now somebody's singing Ice Ice Baby in their head. And that's not good.

because that's one of those ones you can't get out. I know, but I think it's funny because I know there's somebody doing it right now. Oh, I guarantee. And they're cursing you. Why? I'm not the one who said it. You said it. All right.

So like we enjoy doing, let's get into Richard's childhood a little bit. Let's see what's in there. What could have caused him to take to murder so easily? Because I think he did. He did. Richard Leonard Kiklinski was born April 11th, 1935, in the Polish section of Jersey City, New Jersey. His parents were immigrants, one Polish, one Irish. His mother, Anna, worked in a meat packing plant. And his father, Stanley, worked on the railroad.

Now, Stanley was a pretty violent alcoholic. And man, how many times do we hear that? You hear it a lot. It's almost like every episode. Yeah. That these killers have either one or both parents that are violent alcoholics. They're both verbally and physically abusive. Where's all the happy alcoholics in these stories? Yeah, I don't know. That's what you want. If you're going to be the alcoholic, you want to be the happy alcoholic. So Richard had three siblings. He had one older and two younger. And all of them were routinely beaten by both of his parents, not just one. Oh, mom got on. Oh, yeah. Mom got in on the act as well. And he talks about it here in a minute. So I think a very tough environment to grow up in, right? So tough, in fact,

that it's thought that their father, Stanley, killed the oldest boy. And so, you know, Richard's older brother by beating him to death. And the way that the story goes is the police showed up. And the family said that this boy had fallen down the stairs when in reality, it is believed that Stanley the dad beat this boy and whether purposefully or not caused his death. So thanks mom and dad for that. Today that would be an HBO special. It called the falling down the stairwell or Netflix. One of the two. You're going to get a special out of something. Yeah. So let's hear Richard talk a little bit about his parents. With Stanley, it didn't really matter what he was drinking or he wasn't drinking. He was.

He was a nasty son of a bitch, and he always will be until the day he died. And even when he died, he was a nasty son of a gun. Did you go to his funeral? No, I didn't. Was there one? Yes. I didn't like him in life. Why would I want to go see him in death?

I was glad he was dead. How about your mom? How was she? Over the years, I got to dislike my mother a great deal. But now to have more time to think about it. She was just a victim of her own life. As a kid, how did you see her? Hateful.

Disliked her a great deal. She didn't believe in sparing her rot either. I mean, she used to hit me with a broomstick if I did something wrong. Where would you hit you? Wherever it hit. Wherever it hit. Wherever it hit. So, yeah, I think, you know, pretty cold about his dad, but obviously it didn't.

didn't like his dad. His dad was not a good guy. No. But what a quote. I didn't, I didn't like him in life. Why would I go see him in death? Sure. So Richard began killing animals at a young age. He has said that he especially enjoyed killing the cats in the neighborhood. And we know Gibbs. Now, even more than I did back then when I did episode two, that is a very bad sign. It's a really bad sign. A lot of the killers that we've profiled over the years have tortured or killed small animals like squirrels, birds, cats, dogs, you name it as a child. And I think a lot of these people have killed animals and have showed very little remorse in doing so, right? It's not like they, you know, Richard Kiklinsky killed a cat and then he felt bad after he did it. You know, these were kind of

remorseless acts for these types of people. Richard wasn't all. Alter boy growing up, just like you. Just like me. But he didn't like school a whole lot. Yeah, you end up dropping out. Yeah, he dropped out in the eighth grade. Unlike me. Unlike you.

I went one grade further. He made it to the ninth grade. That's right. But it was around this time that Richard claimed he committed his first murder. So, you know, we're talking 13, 14 years old here, right? When you're in the eighth grade. And the story goes that there was this gang of, teenagers. They had been harassing Richard. They had been bullying him for some time. And it was after

this one beating. So they beat him up pretty good. After that, he decided he was going to make his stand. So we talked about it. He wasn't a small guy. No. Probably even in the eighth grade, he was not a small guy. He had to be a pretty big, big boy. Yeah. To get to be six, five, you know, three bills, he was pretty big as an eighth grader. So he attacked this gang leader kind of tracked him down, hit him with, you know, like a thick piece of wood, beat him, beat him until he ultimately died. Yeah. I don't know if he meant to do that or not, but he did kill this kid. Now, one thing that Richard has said after the boy died, he pulled out all his teeth and he sniffed off his fingers before he threw his body off a bridge in South Jersey. So smart. That's pretty

smart for a 13, 14 year old kid. It's also pretty organized, right? Yeah. For your first murder. Organized and just, it's a little skill set you have to have. Right. A lot of forethought. Yeah. Planning to think about, I don't want this body to be identified. It's not easy pulling teeth. It's not easy sniffing fingers off. No, no. And I will take your word on both of them because I've never done either, but it's repetitive. It gets a little tires and you got to have some upper body strength. You do. To really yank some of that stuff out. But he wasn't done, right? Richard tracked down the other members of the gang, beat them all severely with a metal

pole. I mean, this is rough. This is one kid standing up to a gang of teenagers. I'm not sure Gibbs that you get picked on a whole lot after word of this gets around. No, I'm pretty sure people are like, don't mess with that kid. Yes. I mean, he killed the leader and he beat everyone, you know, beat all the other kids up severely. It's like that movie 3 o'clock high or whatever.

Nobody wanted to mess with the big boy. What's 3 o'clock high? I think it was called 3 o'clock high. You know the one I like is my bodyguard. Is that the one with the big guy in it? Where he rented the big guy with the green army jacket? Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Oh, okay.

Well, then what the hell is 3 o'clock high? Did they meet at 3 o'clock high? Out to have the big fight? Do you think the name of the high school is 3 o'clock? No. You're calling at three o'clock high. When the clock hits three o'clock high. You were high at three o'clock?

I'm totally confused. Are you high now? Let's get that out of the way first. I have not been drinking. And I have not been doing. Three o'clock high. Three o'clock high. No, I think the one you're talking about is my bodyguard.

I think you're right. Did the guy have a big, like, green army jacket? Yeah. Yeah. So like we said, right, you're not going to get messed with after you do something like this. but what came out of this is Richard talking about his feelings of this first murder much later on. He said he felt empowered. He was in control, maybe for the first time in his life.

No, I believe that. I mean, I don't know how many fights you've been in, but you know how it is. When you get done, yeah, when you're done with a fight that you want, you feel pretty damn good. Yeah, you asked me how many I was in. You didn't ask me how many I won. Well, I didn't want to go there. I know. you know. Yeah, he felt like he was in control. I think this was huge. This was a turning point in his

life because it was this type of power. I would almost call it swagger, Gibbs, that Keklinski would carry on with him as an adult. I think from this point forward, he didn't take any shit. He decided he was going to be in control. And he didn't take it well when he felt that someone else was disrespecting him. Well, you say, I mean, he certainly developed confidence. Yes. And confidence carries a lot of weight. And he knew he could do what needed to be done.

So when you have that, you're not afraid of many things. Fear is not something that lingers in your head anymore. Yeah. And I don't think he was. I don't think he was fearful. You know, as years went by and he got to be an adult, he began killing people, quite, you know, quite a few. He talked about the fact that he was.

kill people that annoyed him, especially like Loud Mouse in a bar. Yeah. Anybody that reminded him of his father, he would kill. And I don't think it took a lot to get under Richard's skin. There is always that one person that just won't stop that keeps going. Oh, that gets under your skin, you mean? Yeah. Oh, sure.

You know, and you're like, say it one more time, one more time. But, you know, we don't do anything. Meet me at 3 o'clock high. Yeah, 3 o'clock high over by the flagpole. It's going down, man. You know, he's on the west side of New York City. Yeah. And he's running the streets.

It's almost as if that place became his testing ground. You know, how tough are you? I think he was pretty damn tough. You have to be, man. Or he was good at killing people. You know, it's almost like he was honing his talents. Yeah. Now, a lot of the murders that I think he carried out, again, if you believe Richard Kikklinsky,

I think a lot of those, the police took as, you know, vagrants killing each other, things like that. You know, it wasn't like, oh my gosh, all these people are dying. Yeah. This is the west side of New York City. There's people everywhere. There's just another bad person gone. Yeah. But there was one instance where Kiklinski said that he killed a group of guys who were messing.

with him driving down a road in Georgia. Driving in Georgia one time. And we were riding down the road and there was a couple of vans running around and they would hooping and hollering and there. I guess they were having a good old time and maybe drinking and whatnot. They decided I guess it was interesting to play with a guy from New Jersey and they saw it click, clack and with their vans and push me here and push me there. off the road and they were running and out and what their problem was I really don't know never did know

but uh it came to a point where I got extremely mad about that and uh but that was silly of me because I was away from home I had no backing I had nothing problem I only had one weapon which was in the trunk which was at 357 with a hair trigger So I stopped the car and got out, opened the trunk. I had the release and went in the trunk and took the 357 and just stood there. Apparently their eyesight mustn't be too good because I don't think I'd walk up on a guy with a 3.57 standing by his side. But these fellas did. Foolish mistake.

They all died. Well, I certainly wouldn't walk up to somebody with a 357 on their side. No, I wouldn't either. I wouldn't either. But again, I mean, I think this is one of those things, right? Richard Kukkensky is being interviewed for this, you know, these documentaries that ultimately came out on HBO. How much of this is real?

How much of this is bravado, him telling stories. Right. I think of, I think there's actually some pictures of these boys in Georgia. So I'm pretty sure this one happened. Right. Or he somehow knew about this in Georgia and used it as his own. Took claim to it. And I would bet on the former rather than the latter.

Yeah. One thing I would say, he's very calm about telling the story. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I believe he was probably very calculated when he decided that he was going to go ahead and pull the trigger. Yeah. No, I agree with you. And it's actually fascinating to sit and listen to him, you know, kind of like an Ed Kemper or somebody. You just can't believe the words that are coming out of their mouth.

Because, you know, when you're handling gun like that, confidence is key. And you have to be, I mean, if you're all panicky, there's a pretty good chance you're going to miss your target. Oh, yeah. I mean, you have to be steady. You have to be calm. You have to keep your nerves under control for sure. Yeah. So if you're, especially if you're going to shoot a bunch of people at one time.

Exactly. You know. And I know you know from experience. Well, no, you do, but not me. Now, I actually do know a lot about shooting under pressure. Yeah. not actually shooting a person, but shooting targets. And I think, like you said, confidence, you know, I would use the word nerves,

you know, steadiness, all that. It's key, right? If you get jumpy, it doesn't take much at all for a bullet to go off of, from the intended target. Just the, the slightest flinch. Pushed with that. Hair trigger. The hair trigger.

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day. See why Upstart is ranked number one in their category with over 300 businesses on trust pilot and hurry to upstart.com slash T-Cat to find out how low your upstart rate is. Checking your rate only takes a few minutes. That's upstart.com slash T-Cat. So we fast forward, Richard's working in the porn business. I mean, not like you gives. He's not in front of the camera. but, you know, it was through this enterprise that he got into business with the Gambino crime family. And specifically, one of their chief enforcers, Roy DeMayo. I can't believe you let me run through that porn thing and didn't say a word.

Roy DeMaio. I mean, this was a bad guy in his own right. I think he killed a lot of people over the years, Roy did. He was not a guy to mess with either. According to Kiklinsky, DeMayo took him out one day in his car. They parked on the city street. Roy had selected a random target. This is a man walking his dog.

And he ordered Kiklinski to kill this man. Just random. Random. I'm going to see how dedicated you are. That's exactly what it was. He was testing him. He wanted to see how far Kiklinski would go. And without hesitating, Richard got out, walked towards the man and shot him in the back of the head as he passed by.

So I think that showed Roy right there. You know, this is a guy that could be very valuable. And it was really from that point, you know, moving forward that Richard became one of DeMeo's kind of like favorite guys. You know, if Roy needed somebody killed, chances are he was probably going to call Richard. And here's Richard talking about not that hit, but a particular hit that he was paid to carry out. This guy taking care of, but he wanted to talk to him first. So when I got to the place, I asked the man for the money. So the guy says, he didn't have it.

And Roy would just have to wait until he got the money to pay him. And that was that. He'd have to wait. I said to the man, I said, well, you have to then talk to him. He wants to talk to you. So I dial the phone number, and he got on the phone, and I said, he wants to talk to you. So he was talking to him, and I guess they were acting like everything was all right, because he got off the phone, he handed me the phone back.

He says, hey, I told you, he'd wait. He's in the frame of mind. Don't worry about it. He wants to talk to you now. So I picked up the phone and he said, kill him. You better have Roy DeMayo's money. Yeah. Is the lesson that I'm taking from that one.

That's what you learned from that. In 1961, Richard married a woman named Barbara and the pair would have three children together. And Barbara over the years has described their relationship in a number of different ways. She has said that they live the all-American, affluent, suburban family life at their New Jersey home, she's also been quoted to saying that Richard tried to smother her with a pillow. Oh, there you go.

Pointed guns at her, tried to run her over with the car, and hit her so hard, Gibbs, on three different occasions that he broke her nose. Okay. Three different times. Right. But she stayed with him. Well, according to her, there was the good Richie and the bad Richie. The good Richie was the provider, right?

made the money, paid the bills, put the roof over everybody's head, made sure there was food on the table, gave them a very nice, comfortable life. But the bad Richie would come out and he could be extremely abusive, verbally, physically abusive, not only to Barbara, but to the kids as well. Yeah. Like the warriors. Come out. The Warriors?

The movie The Warriors. Okay. I didn't know what, why is the Warriors? The Warriors. It didn't even come out. It's what the guy says is. What you're. Just meet me at 3 o'clock high and we'll settle the whole thing.

Believe it that. Yeah. Now, in 1970, Richard's brother, Joe, his younger brother, he was 25 years old. He stole the dog of a 12-year-old girl. That's his mean, man. Well, that's the start of the meanness. But he told the girl that he had found her dog. So he essentially tricked her into following him to the reason.

roof of the building. And it was there that Joseph Kuklinski raped and murdered this 12-year-old girl. And after that, he threw her body and the dog off of the roof to the street. And it said it was about 40 feet. Jeez. This was, this was very brutal. Sounds worse than his brother. And this is Richard Younger brother. The dog survived and started howling. And that alerted some of the neighbors and obviously they found the young girl. She did not survive. But it didn't take police long, right? They apprehended Joseph. He confessed when they got him to the local jail. This is the part I like. It was said that the guards encouraged some of the bigger inmates to beat the living shit out of him. And they did. Which I'm glad. And the guards sat there and said, okay, I'm not going to do anything.

No. You raped and killed a 12-year-old girl. You deserve what you get. He was ultimately convicted and given a life sentence for the rape and murder of this 12-year-old girl. And I guess the reason I bring it up is, so two killers from the same family. Yeah. You cannot tell me that their childhood didn't play some type of factor. Yeah, it's a factor of environment, man.

Yeah. Environment, nature versus nurture. all of that stuff, you know, that you and I talk about on our episodes, it had to it. All right. So we get back to Richard. He's enforcing for the mob. He's killing people left and right. At the same time, where he's playing house in the, uh, in the Jersey suburbs the whole time. No one around him, not his family, not his friends, neighbors. No one. No one really knew what this guy was up to. It's like you're talking to the guy next door to you. Yeah.

Hey man, how's it going? He's like, F you and he walks inside. Yeah, and you're like, he seems like a nice guy. Yeah, I have a problem with that guy. But yeah,

he gets iced delivered to his place all the time. I wonder what he's doing with all that ice. I don't know. I thought he like a snow shack or something else. It's like a mystery. It's like a Hawaiian ice thing that he likes to eat. Yeah, in his basement.

So all these people, and this includes his wife, right? They know he's abusive to, you know, with inside the family, but everybody, around him just thinks he's this successful businessman.

But you know Gibbs, being a hitman and enforcer for the mob, that's not an 8 to 5 job. Yeah. It's kind of like podcasting. It's not an 8 to 5 job. It's definitely not 8 to 5. Sometimes there's things that need to be done and it doesn't matter what time it is. It's just got to do it. Right?

If Roy DeMayo calls you at 2.30 in the morning and says, I need you to go whack a guy. You say, okay, do meo. Okay, first of all, I want to make sure we're talking about killing someone. Right. Because I got to have that down. Yeah. I got to make that perfectly clear. Crystal clear.

Kiklinsky had that issue, right? He would have to leave sometimes in the middle of the night, sometimes right in the middle of dinner. He would get a call and he would have to go take care of something. I wonder if they have code words. Probably. Like, I think whack was a code word for some of them. I need you to go throw a.

the fish in the river? Maybe something. Maybe. I do think, I wonder this, Gibbs, about his wife. It's always kind of been said that she didn't know. She had no idea. I think later on, right, after she finds out exactly what Richard has been doing for so many years and years, it has to dawn on her. She has to look back at some of the things, you know, running out in the middle of dinner, getting a call at three o'clock in the morning. Some of those things now all. all of a sudden probably makes sense. I mean, if you found out, you kind of suspicious, but then you ran across some stuff, you're like, man, Gibbs has killed 43 people.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, not 42, not 44, 43. Right. Would you say anything? Were you just like, you know what? Some things are just best left unsaid? But what I don't know for sure, right?

I just have a sneaking suspicion. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, you don't have any concrete evidence. No concrete. You just seen some things that you thought it starts adding up in your, you do these flashbacks and things are like, well, yeah, I remember when I was at that storage facility with him. I already think that. Yeah. But until I have some concrete evidence, what am I going to do? That's true. Nothing. Yeah. Why is there a woodchipper in his shed? I don't know. Let you live your

life, man. Now, after Kikklinsky has caught, right, the authorities that study him, they find him to be a little unusual as compared to a lot of the mobsters and killers that they've come across. Number one, the guy's not a huge drinker, not into drugs, didn't cheat on his wife, didn't really gamble. It wasn't like he was just out doing a bunch of mobster type stuff, like good, like you think of Goodfellas. Right. He's just out killing people, which was part of Goodfellas too, but all the other stuff, right, the drinking, the sleeping around, the gambling.

That just really wasn't his thing, apparently. But you have to think, working with Roy de Mayo, that was a scary thing. He was a very volatile guy. And eventually, Roy fell out of favor with the Gambino crime family. So much so that they put a hit out on him. And he was found shot to death in the trunk of his own car in January of 1983. Now, I think Keklinski has hinted from time to time back in the day that he maybe had something to do with it. But I don't think that's true.

I think most people believe it was another hit man. man. Could have been. But again, why would he not want to take credit for it? Well, that's true. You know? Yeah. I think he probably took credit for things that he didn't do.

Richard, when he got into the 1980s, he started to get sloppy. He was kind of trying to work on his own some, kind of start his own rackets, ways to make money. But he got a little sloppy. He killed a guy named George Malaband. And Maliband was a guy that Kikklinsky, knew from the pornography business. Yeah.

You know him, right? Oh, yeah. You know George. Yeah, GM. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You called him GM, sure, back in the day. In early 1980, Keklinsky had vouched for this guy, George Malaban, to Roy DeMaio.

And I don't know how gambling or whatever, Malaban racked up a bunch of debt to Roy. And because Kiklinsky had vouched for him, this debt was falling back on Ripped. Well, obviously he didn't like that. This guy, George wasn't paying his debts. And then George made the worst mistake that anyone could make with Richard Kuklinski. He made a veiled threat in the car while they were driving to see Roy de Mayo. And the threat was kind of towards his family, basically saying, hey, I know where you live to Richard Kiklinski. That's not the smartest thing in the world. That's just not the smartest thing at all. Because, and what we may talk about a little bit later, I don't think Richard cared about

anything except for his family. I think that is the one thing he truly cared about. So if you're going to make a threat even veiled against them, it's not going to end well for you. And it didn't end well for George Malaband either. Richard pulled the car over and shot this guy with a 38 revolver. So he's in the car. He has a dead body.

Not just a dead body. Pretty big dead body. Yeah. Yeah, pretty big, right? So Richard was big. But this George Malaband was like six three, maybe went three bills himself. Yeah. Three hundo.

Always remember him as a pretty big guy. Yeah, George was. I mean, it was a big guy to be in porn, to be honest with you. You don't see that many guys of. that stature in the porn game. But Richard's got to figure out how to dispose of this big guy's body. So what he decides is that he's going to put him into a 55 gallon drum. Well, that's not easy. He, you literally has to force this guy bending him like a, you know, in half like a, like a, like you'd bend a Barbie or, you know, like one of those GI Joe's or something.

Be a real, real difficult task for sure. And then trying to stuff him down in this 50s. gallon drum. Well, he got him in, but he had problem with the legs. So he started breaking the legs. And then he figured, well, I got to cut some things. He started cutting like behind the knee. I mean, just cutting whatever he could to try to get this guy, all of his body parts in this 55 gallon drum. But he finally got the top on. He secured it. And he essentially rolled it off the side of a of a big cliff. Sometime later, a guy that, owned the building that was at the bottom of this big huge cliff, he notices this dented 55 gallon drum.

The lid had popped off in this 60 foot tumble and the guy was looking at it and there was something sticking out. And as he got closer, he realized it was two bloody human legs sticking out of this 55 gallon drum. It's a sight to see. Sure. Sure. So he ran, you know, got the police.

out there. But this is, this is why I say that Richard got sloppy because police were able to trace the identity of this person, George Maliband. And when they talk to George's brother, he said, well, I know he was seriously afraid of this guy named Richard Kukkensky. So that's kind of how Richard got on police radar. He's a suspect. They can't prove he did it, but he's a suspect. He's a suspect. Person of interest? Person of interest, sure. Now we have to talk about Robert Prongay. I think this guy is kind of a fascinating guy in his own right. Yeah. He was a hit man. Yeah. They called him Mr. Softie because he drove around the Mr. Softie truck. You have a similar nickname. I've heard your wife call you that.

Oh, that's wrong. That is so wrong. So he's driving around in this, this truck handing out treats for kids. He's also a hit man. So, It's kind of his cover. But he and Kuclinski kind of get to be friends. And, you know, apparently Richard learned a lot from this guy. This guy was really into using cyanide to murder his victims. He was also like into demolitions and things like that. Imagine you're at the kill club and you're like just sitting around, like having some beers with the other killers, you know, just trading stories, you know, trying to outdo each other.

Like, yeah, you think that was really bad? Let me tell you, there's this one time. Swapping stories. Yeah. Swapping horror stories of hits that went wrong. Yeah. Sure. Exactly.

I can see it would happen. So I think for a number of years, I don't know how many years, but for a number of years, this guy, Pronga, he was kind of important in Richard's life. Kind of like a development coach? I don't know. Yeah. You know, he learned some things. He learned different ways to kill.

They might have pulled off some hits to get. together in July of 1981, man named Louis Mazgay left his home in Pennsylvania. He had about $95,000 with him. He was a partner of Richard Kiklinski. You know, I don't know, they were doing something with this $95,000. Obviously, some type of illegal business where he was going to make a huge profit. Right. Well, he never came home. They found his abandoned van on Route 17 in Bergen County. And again, this is where I say, you know, I think Richard was getting a little sloppy. You know, somebody came forward and said that they later saw this Louis Mazgay's body hanging in a warehouse owned by Richard Kikklinsky.

You know, it was thought that Prongay helped him carry this out. But the biggest thing with this one was that Maske's body was not found for two years. So this is the body that. that they tried to freeze. And many people believe that it was kept in the Mr. Softie truck for like years. Oh, man. Frozen. People thinking back in their head how many times they got a Mr. Softie from that vehicle.

Exactly. Got more than Mr. Softie. So eventually, Kukkensky was going to dispose of this body, right? Mazge's body two years later. So like 1983, it's found over the Jersey border in New York. The body had been shot. It had been wrapped in some plastic garbage bags. Now, one thing that was very odd right from the beginning was that this guy's wearing the same clothes.

He left in that day in 1981. Right. So that's pretty strange because the medical examiner said, this body's pretty fresh. So how has this guy been gone for two years? Yeah. Has not changed his clothes in two years. but yet his body's fresh. It wasn't until they started the autopsy that they discovered inside the body ice crystals

on, you know, some of the tissue. And that gave it away. Then they knew. Then they knew that the body had been frozen. And the big thing is if Kekklinsky had just waited, just a little bit for the body to completely thaw, it would have worked. Could have got away with it. There was no way that anybody would have been able to tell is what the thought process was.

So eventually they identified this mask gay through fingerprints. And again, there was an immediate connection to Richard Kukklinsky because he's killing people that he knows, right? All of a sudden, that's why I'm saying this guy starts making mistakes. He's doing things differently. He killed George, who he was friendly with. Now he kills a business partner, an illegal business partner, but a business partner in Mazge, people that people can put the two of them together. He becomes an even bigger suspect. And this is when

the police start calling him the ice man. But again, they don't have enough to arrest him, put him away. So Kiklinsky's always on the lookout for new ways to profit to make money from killing people. It's kind of his thing, right? It's how he's. supported his family. So there was this pharmacist named Paul Hoffman. And this guy wanted to make a bunch of money by buying illegally some drugs on the cheap and then reselling them through his pharmacy. Oh, get the bigger profit. Yeah. And one of them in particular was Tagamint. Oh, remember Tagamint. Yeah. I thought that was like an over-the-counter drug now. Maybe it is. Probably is now. Back then. But back then, you know, this guy was ready to buy $25,000 worth of tagamette.

Yeah. You know that stuff. I mean, it's fresh on the market. Yeah. Everyone just comes out. It's like that blue pill you take now that you buy off the behind the, not behind the counter now. So this is the afternoon of April 29th, 1982. This deal is going to go down, right?

$25,000 worth of tagamint. This is fun. Tagamon is like an acid or what do you call it? Yeah. heartburn, anti-heartburn medication. So Hoffman gave Keklinski this $25,000. And it was at that point that Kiklinski said, this, it's not real. I don't have the pills. And he killed this Paul Hoffman. He would admit to it later, you know, shot him, beat him. Beat him. Yeah. With a tire iron. And then this is the best part. He stuck him in another 55 gallons steel drum. Yeah.

And pour some men in there. When I say best part, it's sad. It's this. No, sure. I'm just, I can't believe he thinks this stuff and falls it through. But then, so that's not even the, the, to me, the most outlandish part of it. It's not like he dropped the drum into the ocean or a lake or something like that. He basically set it outside a motel next to this hot dog stand, which is where you would put your dead body.

That's where should I put, I know what, I'll put it by this hot dog stand. So it's in, this is in Little Ferry, New Jersey. I guess from what Kukkensky has said, he would go from time to time to the hot dog stand, get a hot dog, and see if somebody had found his barrel. He was just curious. Just, yeah, he's just wondering if somebody was ever going to find it. Now, eventually one day he goes to get a hot dog and the barrel's gone. Apparently somebody had moved it.

But the strange thing. thing is to this day. This guy, Paul Hoffman's body, has never been found. That's really weird. So somebody took it. The city guys came by, said, let's just get this out of here, take it to the dump. And they took it to the dump. Maybe. Maybe. So a couple of mistakes. He died. I then took him and put him in a 50-gallon drum, put it on a side of a motel. It was behind Harry's corner. I listened to the people. I went in Harry's every morning. The thing was there for a long time.

I looked at it every day. It was there. I went in Harry's every day. One day it was just missing. Continued to go in Harry's to see if anything was said about it. Nothing was said. I don't know what happened to the drum. You know, he talks about it pretty nonchalant, man.

Sure. Just what happened? I just woke up, ate some breakfast. Shot a guy. Shot a guy. Yeah. Took a straw, went home. Put him in a drum.

Yeah. Lost the drum. Oh, well. Yeah. Such his life. So I think he's kind of, he's really making some mistakes. And then on December 27th, 1982, the decomposed body of 37-year-old Gary Smith was discovered under a bed in a room at the York Hotel. This is in Northburg and New Jersey. Gary Smith and Kukkensky,

they ran together. They pulled jobs together. They were into auto theft, along with another man named Daniel Deppner. And it would come out that Kukkensky and Deppner decided that they had to get rid of this Gary Smith guy, which they did on December 23rd. They fed him. cyanide-laced hamburgers. While they were all three in the room at this hotel, but apparently this guy didn't die as quickly as Richard Kiklinski thought he would. So he had Depner Strangle Smith with a lamp court. And Depner's ex-wife Barbara was supposed to be, you know, coming with the car.

They were going to move this body. And I guess she never showed up. So they just stuck the body underneath the mattress in this hotel room and left. What do you do, man? Yeah. Just cut out a little hole, shovel them in. Can you imagine renting this room? Because it was said, Gibbs, that over the next four days, the room was rented out to people.

And of course, they thought there was like a, you know, kind of a strange smell going on. Some rodent died in the wall or something. But apparently they didn't think to look under the bed. They would have seen a dead body. Yeah. Imagine finding out that you slept in there. you had some coitus, uh, interruptus. And coitus interruptus?

The whole time, there's somebody dead underneath the bed. That's definitely strange. Though it would be a conversation starter. And this is one where, you know, and I talk about Dr. Michael Bodden a lot. Michael Bodden, the forensic pathologist, he reviewed this case. And I think at one point he came out and said that if they would have just let this guy die, due to the cyanide. It's possible that the death would have been attributed to something natural,

you know, heart attack, whatever. Right. But because Keklinski couldn't wait, he got so impatient, he had this other guy strangle him with the lamp cord. Right. Well, not too hard to tell that you've got, that you've been strangled with a lamp cord. No, it's going to be very obvious. Yeah, those ligature marks are going to stand out.

So that alone proved that this guy was murdered. So I mentioned Daniel Deppner, right? He helped kill Gary Smith. You know, this is like the point in time, I think, Gibbs, where Kiklinsky is starting to think he needs to get rid of people around him. Sure. That know all the things that he's done. Clean house. He's clean and house. He, you know, Deppner's body was found May 14th, 1983 by a, you know, somebody riding their bike. Keklinski killed Deppner. Put his body inside some green garbage bags and dumped it there. Left it left it out for the vultures to eat. He did. You know, when investigators started looking into it, these people were all known cohorts of Richard Kuklinski.

They weren't strangers. And that's where it gets very strange. You know, you kill a stranger. That's one thing. Sure. In a contract hit or whatever. You start killing all the people that you're friendly with and doing jobs with. and they have family that know who you are, that's something completely different.

Exactly. You know, and investigators noted that the place where Richard dumped this guy's body, it was like three miles from this ranch where his family went all the time. I think they rode horses or did something at this ranch. Just up the street. So again, this is just another business associate of Kikklinsky's to have been found dead. So he's all over police radar, but they have not been able to get enough evidence to put him away. The next year in 1984, he killed Mr. Softie.

Mr. Softie was no more. Nope. He killed him, shot him, had something to do, I believe, with an argument. And again, this Prongay guy did something that you shouldn't do. And that was threatened Cook Klinsky's family. And that was enough, right? That's enough to get you killed every day. And he shot Robert Prongay or Mr. Softney.

And he basically left him in the truck. And he was found inside his Mr. Softie truck. In the garage that he kept it in, the problem was the garage that he kept it in was right across the street from a garage owned by Kiklinsky. And again, the two were known associates. So we fast forward to 1985. They have got to figure out how to get this. Richard Kiklinski, they put together a task force, right?

You got to have a task force. Always, if you can't do it any other way, you got to have a task force. Sometimes I build a task force to build things. You put together a task force? You said you build a task force. I build the task force. To build other things. Yeah.

Hmm. Once you build a three o'clock high. I might just do that. And then you and I'll fight in front of it. I don't think you want that. Well, I'm going to bring my bodyguard. Oh, I'm still confident. So 85.

What the task force came up with, and this was, it's really kind of brilliant. They got an ATF special agent who worked undercover. This guy's name was Dominic Polifron. And he was able to get close to Richard Keklensky. And it really wasn't all that hard. The guy was posing as a fellow hit man by the name of Dominic Michael Provenzano, which I feel like if you had we're going to be a hitman that's the last name you would pick that's actually that whole the whole thing right dominic provenzano it's a strong italian you'd say it in like a chef boy rd

voice but that's the name you would pick or i could say it you know so polifron got close to kaklinski and at one point he wanted to hire him for a hit and they're talking on the phone a lot right about, hey, I need you to take care of this for me. What Richard doesn't know is that Dominic is taping all these calls. So Richard is going through telling Dominic in detail about how he's going to carry out these hits. And I mean, I think investigators were shocked at how much information Richard was giving Dominic. I mean, a guy that essentially gives, he had not known all that long. This was not a lifelong friend. Just too comfortable giving out details.

This is a guy that he thought was another hit man. So he's talking about his strategies. Got sloppy. Yeah. I think he really got sloppy in the last two, three, four years of his freedom. But even the best ones do. They do. It was on December 17, 1986 that it was arranged for Keklinsky to meet Dom to get some

Sionis. for this hit, right, that he was going to carry out. And apparently, Dom told Keklinski that it was a undercover police detective. That's who he was going to take out. And Richard said, no problem. No, no biggie. I got this. Yeah.

So they pick up this cyanide. And at some point, Richard tests it on a stray animal. You remember how hard it used to be to get cyanide, man? Yeah, very hard. Yeah. Are you saying it's not anymore? No, it's just saying you remember how hard it was to get it. Sure.

So he tested on this animal, nothing happens, right? He realizes it's not poison. And one of the things I haven't talked about is, and I think he got this from Mr. Softie. Kiklinsky found out that you could take this cyanide, put it in like a, like a cleaner spray bottle. Right. Dilute it a little bit and spray it in somebody's face and freaking kill them. You'd just be walking by and just, just absorbs in.

Yeah. Yeah. So he sprayed, he had it in this bottle. I think he sprayed this dog. So everybody knows. Yeah. Mike is acting like he's spraying a bottle at my face. And I'm literally like halfway to your face.

Yeah, like if it could spray on me, it would be spraying on me at this point. I got my hand fully extended. I'm past the monitor. He's moving his fist and his fingers. Like he's pumping the trigger. That's what a lot of people said about the videos like, man, you really do talk with your hands a lot. I like to act out shit. Yeah.

He's doing it too. If there's gunplay, sometimes I'll pull the trigger. I'm just happy there was an actual bottle up there. I think you would actually be squirting me right now. Maybe. So he squirts this dog. Nothing happens. He realizes this is not poison. It's not cyanide.

So he didn't know what to do. He's going to go through with this hit, but now he doesn't because he knows something's up. So they move in, they arrest him a few hours later. His wife is with him. They find a gun in the car. they ultimately charge his wife

with trying to resist arrest or keep them from arresting him. Law enforcement authorities have arrested one of the most notorious contract killers in state history. A self-employed Bergen County man is behind bars charged with

five murders and prosecutors are investigating his involvement in dozens more. This is unwaring unnecessary. These guys watch too many movies. So I like that one because that's actually Kiklinski after he was arrested and he's saying, you know, what are they arresting me for? These guys just watch too many movies.

I'm not a hit man. I'm not hit man. They're crazy. But obviously it's all going to come out, right? Prosecutors charged him with five murders, six weapons violations, some attempted murder, robbery, attempted robbery. I think it was 19 counts in all. It was, man.

that could have led up to minimum like 300 years in prison. Maybe even the death penalty. Could have, right. Yeah. Possibly the death penalty. I guess they figured out that he had pretty large sums of money in a Swiss bank account. Smart. He had some reservations to leave the country because I think he knew something was up.

You could feel it. He just knew something wasn't right. So they put him in the Bergen County Jail. He's in there on $2 million. is bail. This is what blew me away gives. Incredibly, somehow, this guy had no criminal record. He had done, he had killed like people since he was 14 years old, had never been convicted of anything that would stick to his record. Scaped everything. Yeah. Yeah. I just, I just think he was really good at what he did for many, many years. Until he got sloppy. Until he got sloppy. And it really

wasn't until the last, like I said, three, four, five years, however many it was. And I say they all get sloppy. We know they do. Eventually they do. And he did. But up until then, you know, it's kind of like the question, was he really that good? Was he that smart? Was he really lucky?

No, I think to do it as long as he did. It's more than luck, right? It's a skill. I think so, too. You know, I don't think his luck ran out. I think he just complacent. Yeah. He thought he was too, he thought he was too good. He thought he could never get caught. Israel keys got complacent. Sure. Everybody does. Even the smartest serial killers do.

Guy in Indiana, um, bomb boulder, bum, bum, bum, herb. So they've got him though, right? They have him all these conversations of him talking about killing people with cyanide. He talked about freezing bodies to confuse medical examiners. Now, what is strange is on these tapes. It's not like he's coming out and saying, I killed Robert Prongay. I killed this person, this person and this person. But he's giving enough information where they're able to try to link him. Sure. But it's circumstantial. And that's going to be the issue at trial. You know, he goes to trial in January of 88 for the murders of Daniel Deppner and Gary Smith. I'm assuming those are the two that they had the most on him about. So you had Dr. Michael Bodden testified, as did Dominic Polifron. And a jury ultimately found

Cook Klinsky guilty of two murders. But like you said, on what was really very circumstantial evidence. Really all it was. Yeah, they didn't have a lot of concrete evidence. But had enough circumstantial. Well, and enough to get him a life sentence. Yeah. And I think it's probably why they were not able to get the death penalty. You know, it's not like they had an eyewitness that could say, I saw Richard Kukkensky kill so and so.

So they got, you know, life sentences, not the death penalty, but. Yeah. But they weren't done either. No, they're not done. They were going to go after him for. the murders of George Maliban, Lewis Mazgay, and Paul Hoffman. But they're pretty smart about this one. Oh, I think it's very smart.

Right. They don't want to go through a whole other trial. They, that's going to be expensive. Right. It's going to cost the taxpayers a bunch of money. So they played on what they knew was really the only thing in the world that Richard Kiklinsky actually cared about. And that was his family.

So they said that they would drop the charges against his wife, whatever it was, resisting arrest, or whatever she had been charged with. But apparently his son had also been charged. He caught some drug and weapon charges. They said that they would drop the charges against him as well. So apparently they stopped his son. They found a gun, I think. But they also found something called a Cestis. Oh, yeah.

You ever heard of a Cestis? I'm not allowed to talk about it. C-E-S-T-U-S, never heard of it. Nope. Sounds like Festivus for the rest of us. It does. The way it was described was it's like a leather band with a bunch of studs on it. Yeah.

That you either wrap around your knuckles, like a version of brass knuckles, but... Decorative. When you're not needing it, you're around your wrist is a... Yeah, you actually could. Then you put it on your knuckles and hit somebody with it and do some damage. That's right. So it was called a Cestis. I've never heard of it. So they're going to drop the charges against his family if he pleads guilty and tells them everything. And he did. And I think he even led them to the bodies. He cooperated. He racked up some more life sentences. In all, I think he was convicted of five murders, consecutive life sentences. Essentially, he was ineligible for parole until I think he was. He was convicted of five murders, consecutive life sentences. Essentially, essentially he was ineligible for parole until I think he was. 111 years old.

Something like that. So if you made it to 111, maybe we will let you out. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. I think if you make it to 111 gives, Al Roker will come and do something special to prison. Do a little shout out. Willard Scott will probably come back from the dead.

Is he alive or dead? I don't know. He's retired. He'll either come out of retirement or back from the dead to wish you a happy 111. birthday. It's not going to happen, right, for a guy like Richard Kiklinski. Right. And something that I thought was interesting was that he ended up in the same prison as his brother that we talked about. What kind of a reunion that is? I don't think much of one. Yeah. I don't think so. What if they dominate the prison or the wing that they're in, you know?

Yeah. Hey, it's the brothers. The Keklinski brothers. He is such a cold-blooded killer. They called him the Ice Man. After being convicted of two murders, he confessed to two others in court today. I shot George Malloran five times. Louis Mazgay on July 1st, 1981. I shot him once in back of the head. So pretty matter of fact, you know, he's just standing up in court and saying I killed these people. Yeah, here you go. In 2003, he pled guilty to the 1980 slaying of a guy. named Peter Collabro. And Collabro was a New York City police detective. It added 30 years to a sentence. It really didn't mean anything. Well, but it did probably to... Yeah, yeah. I shouldn't... You're right, Gibbs. I shouldn't say it didn't mean anything. It didn't mean anything in regards to his sentence.

No, not that point. He was never going to leave. But for the Collabro family, which I think is where you were headed, it probably meant a lot. Sure. And so I, yeah, I'm glad you could. corrected me there. In October 2005, at this point, Richard had been in prison for 17 years. He was diagnosed with a rare disease. It was this inflammation of the blood vessels and he was transferred to a secured medical center. And this is where, I don't want to say it's comical because the man dies, but apparently he had asked doctors to make sure that they, you know, revived him or they asked him if he wanted to be revived. And he said, yeah, right? If he flatlined or whatever, use the paddles, man, you do whatever you got to do. And just about a week before his death, right,

the hospital knew he wasn't doing well. They called his wife and said, do you want to rescind those instructions and she said no. Keklinski died March 6, 2006. He was 70 years old. So I don't know, Gibbs. I mean, I think the guy is somewhat fascinating to me. He was a cold-blooded killer. There's no doubt about that. Oh, yeah. He was very cold-blooded. He killed in a variety of ways. If you believe some of the things he said, I mean, obviously we're talking about guns. He talked about having this little miniature derringer maybe would pop out crossbow action yeah he's talked about crossbows uh some chainsaws just a little chainsaw just a little chainsaw action yeah said he killed some people with hand grenades maybe even talked about attaching bombs to remote

controlled toy cars that's a scary way to i mean that's that's scary right to think because some of these remote control cars will go 50, 60, 70 miles an hour. They get up underneath you as you're going down the highway. And just blow you up. Well, that's one way to go on detective. But I think his favorite weapon was cyanide. There you go. Especially later in his life.

There you go squeezing the trigger thing again. Did I? Yeah. With the cyanide. And again, I talked about it, right? It's a, you know, a spray bottle. You kind of just shoot it in the person's face. something that he had learned from Robert Prongay, Mr. Softie.

So in preparation for this episode, Gibbs, I did watch the movie, the Ice Man. I don't know if you've seen it. I didn't talk to you about it ahead of time. Have you seen it? I have not. It's actually pretty good movie. Yeah. Like a lot of things that you and I talk about, it doesn't, it can't, right, really

portray the full measure of Richard Kikklinsky. But the movie's good. It has some big time actors in it. I had never seen it before. Michael Shannon's really good. I like, I like Michael Shannon. He was in like,

um, boardwalk empire. He's in a lot of things, man, he's good. Yeah, he was really good. He plays Kiklinski.

Uh, Ray Leota. Yeah. James Franco, Steven Dorff. David Schwimmer. Well, friends.

Ross is in it with like this weird mustache playing a character. Well, Ross, huh? Wynona Ryder plays his wife. Which he still. Lipstick? Is she still something off the set? No.

Okay. I thought you were talking about like what did she still when she got caught back in the day. I just had out, you know. Who else? Oh, Chris Evans. Is it like Captain America? He plays Mr. Softie. Yeah.

So it hurts a lot of women out there right now. It's a, it's kind of a star-studded cast. There's this one part in the movie that really got me. And it's where Kiklinski is driving with his wife and kids in the car. and I think he either runs into somebody or they get in a scrape between two cars. And this guy gets out and starts cussing at him and stuff, right? Another reason why in a road rage situation, you better damn well know who you're getting involved with.

And there's really no way for you too. So be careful. Exactly. He gets out and starts cussing up this prolific contract killer. Right. And the guy, Kiklinski says, you know what? get back in your car or something bad's going to happen or whatever. Right.

And the guy just won't stop. And I think at one point he threatens his family. Says something about I'm going to kill you and your whole family or whatever. I can't remember exactly. Yeah. But the part that got me was that was it. It was like the light switch was flipped to on. Kiklinsky chased this guy like around the city.

Yeah. And it reminded me of myself so much. I was getting ready to say. Why do I sound like this is a story about you? I know. And I'm watching this thinking, oh, my God, is this what I look like? Yeah. I've got my wife in the car.

My kids and his kids were like screaming. Daddy stopped. Your girls are back there crying. I know. This is the end. I got, man, I need to get my life together. Yeah. You're like, man.

I'm like an apple sauce away from being Richard Kikklinsky. And right before you start that story, you're like, so you need to be really careful on who you decide that you're going to argue with and road rage incidents. but then you went into the story and that is exactly you. I've probably heard you tell a handful of stories that you've done this. That are worse than that. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

But you're still here. I'm still here. Yeah. But that, you know, the movie's worth watching for sure. You're not going to get the full measure of Richard Kiklensky because you can't in an hour and a half. It's just not possible. But it was an entertaining movie.

I liked it. Yeah. I'll have to catch it out. All right, Gibbs. So that was our Patreon episode on Richard Kiklensky. We hope everyone enjoyed it. You know, you can find a bunch of Patreon episodes like that. Yeah.

At patreon.com slash true crime all the time. Good stuff. You know, we put one out every month. And in fact, we just dropped a new one yesterday on a love triangle between a millionaire, an ex-football player, and a blonde bombshell that ended in murder. It's a fascinating story. Get any better than that. No.

know that's some intriguing stuff it's Hollywood movie type stuff yeah right love triangle between those three types of people so if you want you can definitely go check that out we hope that everyone is enjoying their holidays and we want to wish everyone a happy new year yes Gibbs as we wrap up we have some voicemails okay so let's check those out hey Mike and Gibby this is Brittany calling from Raleigh North Carolina um I just finished listening to recent episode on Catherine Knight, and I have to say I'm glad that I was not eating like dinner while I listened to that episode. But I did want to give a quick reference to what Giddy was talking about.

It was not actually called, or it is not actually called Dead Bodies on Tour, but it is called the Bodies Exhibit, and it's a traveling museum-like exhibition of human bodies that have been meticulously dissected, I guess, is the right word, in a very scientific anatomical way. It's extremely fascinating, and I've seen it twice now. It's not macab seeming. But disclaimer, I'm a PA student, starting to be a physician assistant. So dissecting human bodies is kind of like a normal thing for me. So maybe to other people, it is weird.

But anyway, I just wanted to give that information in that reference. Um, love the work that you guys do. Thanks so much. I've been a fan from the beginning. And I hope you guys have a fantastic holiday. Keep your own time taken. So definitely big thanks for that voicemail gives. We got a bunch of them. Anytime you say something like that. Yeah, you have Hutton. Everybody listens. Yeah. And then I get thousands of emails, hundreds of voicemails. That's great, man. I love it. No, it is great. So I played one voicemail. Right. I had to pick. I just, picked one from what was probably 20 or 30, to be honest with you. Yeah. Most of the emails I get say, Givie was right. Well, was Ghibi right?

Was it really called dead bodies on tour? I do not think so. That would be a cool t-shirt. I did not think so from the beginning. I wasn't doubting the fact that there was some type of, you know, exhibition. Right. What I was doubting was the fact that you called it dead bodies on tour. Like the Wiggles or something.

You know, you're buying tickets to... Maybe we can combine the Wiggles with the Dead Body Tour. Is the Wiggles still a thing? I don't know, probably. Oh my gosh. I used to get so fed up with my kids. Is that even the name of it? The Wiggles?

I think it is the Wiggles. I think it is. Yeah. It was one of those groups that you just couldn't get the songs out of your mind. It would drive you nuts. But how cool was it? I mean, I'm saying cool, but, you know, she enjoys dissecting. Well, it's right up her alley.

Yeah. She is studying to be a PA. Yeah. Hi, Mike and Givie. This is I.B. Martinez. I'm from Orange County, California. L.A. born, San Ana, Ray. We've had quite a bit of crimes out here.

I actually have a cousin who's a guard at the prison where one of the Menendez brothers is that. And some people I grew up going to church with actually moved here from Texas. and their older brother actually grew up with Richard Ramirez. Anyway, six degrees of separation and all. Really, really enjoyed the podcast. And what else can I say? Thank you for the laugh.

And yes, sometimes I want to scream at the crimes, especially the crimes against children. But I have to compose myself and remember that I'm at work. Anyway, love you guys. And keep your own time ticking. But do you know Kevin Bacon? The nexus for the six degrees of separation game. Yeah.

So, yeah, you know, you and I have said it before. We're always fascinated by the stories of people that have these connections or some degree of separation from these really horrible killings. Exactly. Hey, T-CAD, it's great to eat from down in Alabama. Hey, I just wanted to say thank you for what you do. You guys are amazing. Mike and Gibby, love you guys. I actually work at UPS, and, you know, to get me through my day, I listen to you guys.

guys and you guys are by far my favorite um love the podcast like I said I listen to you guys and uh true time garage I think that's stationed out of Ohio as well but uh had a good recommendation um it was a guy from um Alabama Georgia and then was Joseph Aiken or Joseph Dewey Aiken and he was a nurse that uh killed a bunch of patients um that kind of thing maybe you guys looked more into it I was doing some research on it it looked pretty bizarre it was like 19 patients he killed or something like that but you know well just wanted to say thank you guys y'all do doing an amazing job and keep your own time ticket all right great voicemail yeah true crime garage gives those are kind of like our brothers we know them very well yeah they are literally about an hour to an hour and a half down

the road from us yeah pretty close pretty close but we appreciate that suggestion and we'll definitely look into it hello my name is Suzanne schmidt from nuremberg germany i love you guys and I listen all the time because I deliver car parts and I'm on the road a lot. And I just want to say I love you guys and I think you're the best podcast I found. I always was interested in true crimes. And I have an interesting case for you if you don't mind. It's the case of Fritz Harman. he was convicted and sentenced to death in the early 20s in Germany

and he killed about 24 young men and children and I thought it might be an interesting case because I said you hardly have any cases outside of America so I thought I'd give you a shout out and keep your On time ticking. Bye. She says she delivers car parts? She does. I was actually thinking I need a carburetor for a 68 Camaro. So, Suzanne, if you're in the Ohio area delivering car parts, just drop that off.

But I'm thinking in Germany, do they really need car parts? I thought German cars were just the best, man. Are you putting down German car? No, I'm just saying BMW. Every car. Now, what I will say is those car parts are very expensive. Yeah. When you get into the BMWs, Mercedes, all those German automakers, man, from what I understand, because I've never had one of those cars, I don't make that kind of money.

Those car parts are very expensive. Maybe she delivers them in a armored vehicle. Maybe. But we appreciate it. And we'll definitely look into that case. Have we done a T-Cat in Germany? I know we've been there, I think. We have.

At least once, maybe, I was thinking. But it's time to go back. Gibbs, we had mailbag. Our good friend Jamie McLaughlin Bearden sent us some Garrett's Chicago-style popcorn. It's by far my favorite. So for one, if you've never tried Chicago-style popcorn with the caramel and the cheese together, try it. I know it sounds kind of funky, but it is awesome.

And Garrets is by far the best I've ever had. Our friend Lottie sent us some goodies from Denmark, probably getting us ready for our Scandinavian episode that we're rolling out. in early 2020. She also sent us some very cool personalized coasters for the studio. And then someone sent us some T-Cat magnets. But again, there was

no name on it. I'm pretty sure it was the same person who sent us the mugs last week. All right, everyone. That is it for another episode of True Crime All the Time. It's the last episode, Gibby, of 2019. Oh, yeah. So

it is. We appreciate everyone listening. We hope you had a good year. We hope you have a great new year. Yeah, and we'll be back with you in 2020 after the ball drops. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.