True Crime All The Time - Richard Lyon

Episode Date: May 31, 2021

Richard Lyon was a man who had it all. He had money, a loving wife, and two little girls. But, when he met another woman, he began scheming on how to get out of his marriage. He wanted this new woman, but, he did not want to give up his social status, his money, or his children. He developed a plan to poison his wife, Nancy, and he almost got away with it.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Richard Lyon. When he married Nancy, Richard gained the status and money that came from her family. He wasn't about to give that up and to do that he had to remove Nancy from the picture. He began poisoning Nancy over a period of time and it culminated with her death in 1991. Nancy's family was suspicious from the start and eventually, police charged Richard with Nancy's murder. But, during his trial, it looked as though his defense was set to gain an acquittal. It took a bombshell from the prosecution to seal his fate.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 235 of the true crime all the time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Give you what's going on? Hey man, I'm doing good. How well you? I'm doing great. Yeah. We just had a fantabulous dinner. It was fantabulous because your daughter made it. Yep. My daughter made it. Marinated, grilled chicken. Mexican kind of, you know, tortillas rolled up. with some pico and it was good some cohito cohia cheese i don't know just say cheese it was good though say cheese what's it's like a mexican cheese yeah it was good it was very good so that gives us the fuel to really dive in to these episodes or am i getting sleepy i don't i don't know sometimes with you

it's hard to tell if you're energized or you're sleepy hey we've got some great support let's give some shoutouts for Patreon. We had Wendy Baldwin. Hey, Wendy. Josh jumped out at our highest level. Appreciate that, Josh. Christina Montez. Hey, Christina.

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Maybe it's Girlin. No, I think it's Girl in Desert. All right. Hey, Girl and Desert. Gabriel Angelino. Oh, appreciate that. Angelino. Erica Lindsay.

Hey, Erica. A.J. Brown jumped out at our highest level. Hey, what's going on, AJ? James Burton. Hey, James. Hannah Elise. Hey, Hannah. The sunny unicorns.

Ooh. All unicorns were sunny anyway. Unless you got a bad one, I guess. Yeah. Alicia Hampton jumped out of their highest level. Appreciate that, Alicia. Christine Cohen jumped out of our highest level. Well, Cohen in the house.

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You know, amazing. Thank you to everyone. Yeah, that is awesome. Gibbs right now on True Crime All the Time Unsolved. We have an episode out. It's on Lindy Weldy. We're headed to Indiana. And, you know, 10-year-old Linda Weldy stepped.

off her school bus on February 24th, 1987, and was never seen alive again. Yeah, they looked at some family members, some other strange individuals. And we'll get into it all. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? And I am ready. We're talking about Richard Lyon, a man who poisoned his wife Gibbs and just about got away with it. Wow. And probably would have, if not for a prosecution Perry Mason-like moment. I like those.

I know we talk about Perry Mason moments a lot. This is actually one that really fits that description. But let's start talking about Nancy Lyme. She died from a mysterious illness on January 14th, 1991. The initial determination was that she died of natural, complications related to the illness. But her family had suspicions that she was poisoned. So they ordered an autopsy, which revealed that Nancy had lethal amounts of arsenic in her body. And you kind of wonder how that plays out, right? Why is the family so suspicious? They obviously have reasons behind it

enough to say, hey, we want an autopsy. They turn out to be correct. Now it's found that she has all this arsenic. The prime suspect became her husband, Richard Lyon. His trial would later reveal a marriage full of secrets and betrayal. Nancy's dark past and how she suffered for months before she die. Like I mentioned, you know, this is a guy that almost got away with murder. until the prosecution brought in a surprise witness.

Good thing they did. And good thing they did. You always kind of wonder about that as well, right? You and I talk a lot about wrongful convictions, and those are really, you know, something that's on my mind. It bothers me greatly. I think the flip side of that is how many people get away with murder?

More than we care to admit. Or other crimes because the prosecution believes they did it. They just don't have the evidence to make a jury believe they did it. Yeah. But you know there's a lot of people who have killed and the jury let them go. Yeah, they get off scot-free. Yeah. Not blaming the jury because they can only go based on the evidence put before them.

Now, I will say this. A lot of the information that we're going to cover in this case comes from a book called The Killer Next Door written by Gail Golden. Gail lived next door to the Lions for a number of years. And she provides detailed information about the lion's troubled marriage and all of the incidents leading up to Nancy's death. For years, Gail thought Nancy and Richard had a happy marriage. But that was far from the truth.

Another thing that you and I talk about quite a bit. How many couples do you know? And you look at them and say, ah, they're great. Yeah. They're great together. They've got a good marriage. Yeah, on the outside, they look perfect. Yeah.

But underneath, it may not be quite as perfect as they're portraying it to be. Nancy was born on August 6, 1953. She was the daughter of a prominent Highland Park family. Her father was a successful real estate developer. The Dillard family was originally from New York, but they moved to Texas for the real estate boom. And man, was there a real estate boom? They're sure. And has been.

Yeah. In intervals and sometimes consistently in Texas. William and Sue Dillard had four children, Tom, Susan, Bill Jr. and Nancy. Nancy had an ideal childhood. She had a loving family. They were wealthy. She attended all the best schools in Park City. But her family hid a disturbing secret, which will get.

get into detail later in the episode, Nancy was one of the prettiest, smartest debutants in Dallas. I'm guessing there was a lot of competition. Yeah, in Dallas, I would say so. I mean, everyone knew that she'd have a successful career later on in real estate. She was said to have been highly motivated and she was also a perfectionist. You've got to be motivated to be in the real estate business. Yeah. I mean, she sounds a lot like you. highly motivated, a perfectionist, someone who makes sure that every word that comes out of their mouth is said with the utmost clarity and grammatical correctness. And top of the debutante list.

And you were a debutante. Richard Lyon was born April 22nd, 1957 and grew up in a middle class neighborhood in Connecticut. Richard's dad sold insurance and his mom. worked as a teacher's aide. Richard was a quiet and independent child. It was said Gibbs about him that he was the kind of kid who never showed any type of strong emotions, I guess either way. Yeah, kind of quiet sounds like.

Or kind of a little flat. Yeah. Right? Not too low. Not too high. There's something to be said for that, but there's also, I think, a little worry there. Oh, of course. That you don't have the giddiness about opening a present or you're not depressed when something bad happens.

I always wonder when they will explode also. Well, and that's why I said. Maybe there's some foreshadowing there. I'm not saying that everyone who's like that is going to kill, but. I did read that. Richard did well in school. And he was kind of like Nancy. He was a perfectionist.

Yeah. So, I mean, when you kind of get the background of these individuals, seems like they grew up in very normal situations, right? Nancy grew up in a family that was a little more wealthy. She had maybe some advantages that Richard didn't have when it came to money. Right. But it seems from the research that the support was there, right? The parents were there loving, supportive, all of them. that. We're not talking about kids who were locked in a closet, withheld food, beaten,

you know, things that we often talk about with some of the serial killers. Yeah, pretty much they had a normal childhood. Richard and Nancy met in 1979 at Harvard University's graduate school of design. Okay. I think that says something. A lot of times when you, I mean, pretty much when you say Harvard, you're talking about. the upper echelon. Sure. It's definitely prestigious. It's not easy to get in. No, I still don't know how you made it in.

I got really good grades in high school and I couldn't even sniff something like Harvard. Now, I couldn't have paid for it either. So it was kind of a- It worked itself out. Yeah, it was kind of a moot point. They both studied landscaping and development. You know, at first, Nancy wasn't interested at all in Richard. But Richard was the type of guy who was very,

persistent. And I think sometimes Gibbs, that can help overcome a lot. Okay. There's, there's not the spark. There's not the love at first sight type of attraction, but you're the guy that's there all the time. Kind of grows on you. Yeah. And you, you maybe grow on somebody. You know, he helped her with assignments, cooked her dinner, worked on projects with her, that kind of stuff eventually won Nancy over and they fell in love while in school Richard and Nancy worked together to make their handwriting look identical. So this is something I've never heard before. Now, the reason why it was said they did this was so that Nancy could write papers for Richard.

I like where they went with that. That's kind of ingenious. Yeah. It's just, it's not something that I've ever heard of. I've heard of people copying other people's signatures. I know you've copied mine on some pretty important documents. I've gotten upset over. Allegedly.

Allegedly. No, I got upset. You're saying allegedly you copied my handwriting. Yes. Most of the research said that Nancy wrote to papers, but if you think about it, if it's identical,

it can go either way. Now, Nancy was probably like, no, I don't want you writing my papers because I'm smarter than you. Exactly. I'll help you out. but just let me do my own thing with my stuff.

Today you wouldn't have that problem, would you? No, you wouldn't. I mean, I've watched my daughter do some of her college homework. I mean, everything is virtual. It's digital. I think she goes to like one class a week. Now, some of that's related to COVID and all of that.

But as far as doing work, I can remember when you and I were in college, around the same time, a lot of scantrons. Remember the scantrons fill in the bubble? Now, you could guess that way. But I think I did. I'm sure you did.

Also a lot of written papers. Yes. Like your handwriting or typing. Yeah. If you were lucky enough to have a typewriter. I used to like getting the dittoes. You probably don't remember those. No.

They come right off the ditto machine. Used to smell them and get high. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know what you did. Yeah. But, you know, this fact that we're talking about of the two of them making their

handwriting similar, identical. It's a very important deal and it comes up later in this case. So I mentioned Gibbs that Nancy's family was wealthy. You know, there was some stuff in the research about Richard's family being a little bit standoffish, you know, a little bit intimidated, maybe is the right word by the Dillard's wealth and kind of their clanish ways. they've stuck together. Well, it can be an adjustment for somebody coming into that world if they're not used to it. Well, sure. Well, and I think it was for Richard, too.

You know, it seemed as though he never really fit in with the Dillard family. But he and Nancy married in 1982. Now, Richard didn't seem to resent the Dillards for their wealth. And eventually, he adapted pretty well to affluent society. Well, you know, that opulent lifestyle is pretty cool. Yeah. My kind of thing is, why would you resent it? Hey, let me hit on it. Yeah. I'm married into the family now. Let me partake. Where's my new truck at? In some of this bounty. Richard and Nancy moved to Dallas at the height of the land boom. They wanted to work hard. They wanted to make their own living. But at the same time, they accepted some help from Nancy's father. He gave them loans and recommended them to his. acquaintances. Never let it be said, Gibbs, that having some money and being well connected doesn't help you. Oh, man. Because there's no doubt that it does. Yeah, it makes a huge difference.

In 1982, Nancy took a management job with Trammell Crow's residential company. And this was a company owned by a family friend. And again, that's kind of what I'm saying, right? You get these ends that you would not get most likely on your own. I'm not saying Nancy didn't deserve it. She was extremely smart. She went to Harvard, right? Yeah. So, I mean, she was probably well qualified for the job, but it doesn't hurt to have someone give you their recommendation and say, hey, I know this person. They're going to be great. Makes it a little easier. It makes it a whole lot easier. She became the first female partner at Tramble Crow in 1983. She was there about a year, Gibbs, and was made partner.

Well, everybody respected her. Everybody liked her. I mean, she was just an all-round good person. So that doesn't hurt. And if you're competent and you can get the job done on top of all that, I think that's a winning combination. I think you're going to go a long way. Nancy also took on charity projects.

She joined the Junior League, which is an elite nonprofit organization. In 1984, thanks to Bill Dillard's recommendation, Richard was hired by developer Kenneth Hughes to oversee construction of his firm's biggest projects. By age 28, he was directing these very large construction projects. So again, not saying that either one of these people weren't deserving. They had the educational background. There's no way that they could have had the experience. And I think that's where the recommendations really come in handy.

You know, I think it's even worse today. When you come right out of college, it's like, hmm, okay, do you have an experience? No. But I got this degree from Harvard. Well, anytime someone can help you push that door open a little bit, it makes a big difference. Richard's colleagues liked him. They thought he was a great guy.

But at times, Richard would get out. angry. Angry, but never kind of losing control, never becoming violent. I got a little bit of that in me. A little road rage. Yeah, I can get angry pretty quickly. There's no doubt about it. I wouldn't say I'm a violent person, but I can get angry sometimes directed at you. Sometimes. But despite all of his success, Richard kind of felt as though he was always in Nancy Shadow, right? She's, she, had the connections. He didn't. He did benefit from some of them. It was said Gibbs that Nancy and Richard never really cared much about material things. You know, even though they could afford a much much bigger house, they lived in an 1,100 square foot duplex. They spent weekend nights at home

watching movies. They did their own landscaping in the backyard. Gail Golden and her husband became tenants at the duplex in 1985. And this is where she first started to form her opinion of Richard and Nancy. And it was that this was a couple that seemed happy. They never fought.

They were doing really well. For one thing, Richard and Nancy were constantly busy. They were always doing different types of home improvements. They were building dollhouses for their daughters. Friends have said that Nancy was

the idea person and then Richard would take the idea and execute it. Sounds like most relationships. Could be flip-flop, but there's always somebody that has the grand ideal and somebody that has to execute it. Yeah. I mean, I think it makes for a good partnership. You know, you got the idea person. You got the person that gets stuff done. All right. Well, if you got two people that get stuff done, but no ideas, what are you getting done? And if you got two idea people, but yet, you can't execute them because nobody can get anything done. I think both of those are a problem. It is a problem. Yeah. Their daughter Allison was born in 1986. And by all accounts, Richard and Nancy loved being parents. In 1988, the real estate boom ended. Richard had less work with the firm.

In January of 1989, their second daughter, Anna, was born. And when she was born Gibbs, she had a hip problem. Anna cried constantly because she was always in pain. And Richard was often away and didn't help Nancy with the kids. Yeah, Nancy really had to deal with that herself. That's tough. It is tough. But even despite these type of stressors, everybody thought Richard and Nancy seemed like the perfect couple. They were compatible. They never seemed to argue or have any type of major problems. Nancy was surprised when Richard grew and happy in the marriage. I can imagine because she probably, like most people looking from the outside in on them, thought, hey, we're doing great. We've got this perfect marriage, good life, good jobs. We've got money. Our kids. I mean,

things, things are good. Yeah. What's not to be happy with? Yeah. It was in the fall of 1989 not that Richard met another woman and started to have thoughts about ending his marriage. Well, there you go. Now we know. Now we know. I mean, that is often what can lead a man or woman to become unhappy in the marriage. Maybe they were unhappy before and didn't voice it. But when you meet someone and it's like, I think to some Gibbs, okay, I thought this person was my

soulmate, but no, now I've met this person. They're my soulmate. I got to be with them. Yeah, they're better. Yeah, and that can wreck a marriage real quickly. The old, uh, thinking that the grass is greener. Yeah, I mean, I think sometimes it's true, but sometimes I think people get themselves in trouble with that way of thinking, right? Whether it's relationships, jobs, um, all kinds of different things. Always thinking that the grass is greener somewhere else or with someone else. It doesn't always work out that way. It's very true. Richard's girlfriend was a woman named Tammy Ann Gaseford. Anne was the daughter of a residential contractor in Dallas. She and Richard met in the summer of 1989 while working on renovations for the Sacks Fifth Avenue Pavilion in Houston.

They were pretty serious about each other. They were. They were. And as a Christmas gift, Richard bought her, a $5,000 ring. That's a pretty nice ring, even more so back in that time frame. Well, and I think you said he was serious. That kind of shows your level of seriousness. You're plunking down $5,000 in 1989. For a ring, you're pretty serious. Richard loved Ann, but at the same time,

he was reluctant to end his marriage. And I think specifically for two reasons. And most people can guess what those two reasons. are. It comes up in a lot of cases like this one. You've got children involved. And you have what is probably a considerable amount of money that one spouse doesn't want to lose or give up to the other. On December 26, 1989, Gail Golden spotted Richard in the driveway with a duffel bag. She said he hugged his daughter Allison, then got in his car and drove away. And definitely Nancy was distraught by the separation. Now, Gibbs, a lot of people get separated. They do. They work out

their issues. They come back or they decide that it's not going to work. Here's the problem I have with Richard. He told Nancy that he was going to a family counseling program in Arizona. That would be really nice if he actually did that. Yeah, because that means. he's trying to work on the marriage. The problem is he went on a ski trip with his girlfriend, Ann. Not going to be doing a lot of work on the marriage when you're on the slopes and back at the ski resort. Yeah, with your lover.

If anybody has seen any of the 80s movies about skiing, you know what goes on to ski resorts. It's all about chikawa-wow-wow. It's all it's about. Richard came back a couple of weeks later. tried to make amends with Nancy, but that didn't last either. He moved out again the next month for the next year. Nancy basically accepted him every time he wanted to come back, but he kept leaving and coming back and leaving. According to the killer next door, Nancy told her family, I know the real Richard. This isn't like him. He's a family man. He's sick, but I know he'll come around.

Nancy always supported him and basically told everyone that he was having a midlife crisis. She really believed eventually he'd get over this. Well, I think it also tells you the amount of love and caring that Nancy had for Richard. She loved this guy. Yeah. And to my way of thinking, Gibbs, she couldn't really see the situation maybe for what it was. it sounds to me like she was seeing it a little bit the way she wanted it to be and kept thinking it would be that way regardless of the signs or what Richard kept doing.

Well, and he kept on doing some things. He did. He went on a spending spree basically using Nancy's money to buy gifts for and take Anne on trips. That's a big slap in the face on top of, hey, not only do I not want to be with you. I want to be with this other person. Yeah. I'm going to spend your money on this other woman.

And Nancy's seeing that he's spending this money. You know, she sees that. She knows what he's doing. But here's the thing, Gibbs. Nancy became sick. She started losing weight. But even through all of that, she believed Richard would come back to her. But Richard wasn't around, right?

He's out spending lavishly on. and taking trips with her. So Gail Golden helped Nancy out with the girls when she was sick, which was quite often. And it was Gail who felt that something was off with Nancy's mysterious illness from the very beginning. Now, she couldn't figure out what it was, but by summer of 1990, Nancy was very sick and she had lost a significant amount of weight. Nancy filed for divorce in September of 1990.

Her attorney requested that she gets sole custody of the children, child support, and up to $260,000 in assets. So Nancy was happy with that. At a certain point, obviously, Gibbs, she came to the conclusion that the marriage was over. Yeah, it was time to move on. I think Richard probably lied to her over and over, gave her false hope, but at a certain point she figured it out and she was like enough is enough so she was happy with this type of settlement and she was actually eager to take a job offer in Washington, D.C.

as head of the National Tree Trust. Sounds like a good job. I'm sure it was. Now Richard, on the other hand, he didn't want the divorce because like we've already talked about, right? he was going to lose his social status, money, and his children. He wants the other woman. He does. But Nancy is the one that gave him the social status that he had.

She was the one with the connections and the wealthy family. He didn't want to have to pay her alimony. He didn't want to have to, you know, give up a bunch of money and assets. And he didn't want to lose his children. No, he wanted to eat. cake. And eat it too? Yeah. Okay. I know you were on there somewhere. I was getting there. You were getting there. Yeah. Nancy began suspecting that Richard was poisoning her sometime around May, June of 1990. She told her divorce lawyer Mary Henrick and her sister-in-law, Mary Dillard,

about two strange incidents. Once when she and Richard were at the movies, he bought her a soda. But apparently she took one sip and spit it out because it had a really bad foul taste to it. She opened the lid of the soda and she saw some white powder floating on the top. That's not a good sign. It is not a good sign. I want to see the manager immediately. I don't know what kind of establishment this is, but this is not the way I roll. I guess Richard became angry that she refused to drink the soda. Okay, you might be tipping your hand there a little bit there, Bob. Yeah, I think so. It's not good. In early September, Nancy found a bottle of wine on her porch with an anonymous note. But when she looked at it, it appeared as though the cork had been

tampered with. She drank the wine, but got very sick and vomited after drinking it. So there's a tip for you. If it looks like the corks been messed with, I know we all love wine, pitch it out. Yeah, we all love to get our wine on, but there's two things that jump out at me. You know, first of all, this is anonymous. Somebody's just leaving wine on your doorstep. And you could look at that as a, oh, it's one of the neighbors, but why would they not put their name on it? Right. And then you look at that cork and you think, okay, obviously it's been tampered with. I'm throwing that bad boy out. Now, I'm not blaming her.

I don't want it to come off like that. I'm just saying what I would do. I would be very leery. You know me. I'm leery of almost everything as it is anyway. Yeah, you don't even like it when I bring food over. I especially don't like it when you bring food over.

Because I get this mental image that your hands have been kneading dough or needing something. And then, you know, you bring me these cupcakes. They're not the most appetites. I'm sorry, I made them with my shirt off. There's flecks of things like clinging, you know, let's order out. Yeah. I figured all that stuff's killed when you put it in the oven for $3.50. Let's not take that chance.

So back to this wine. Mary Henrik urged Nancy to have the wine tested, but Nancy never did. I think Gibbs, from my understanding, she thought it was an embarrassing situation to accuse Richard of something like this, right, tampering with wine, trying to poison her. I mean, she had told a couple of close friends, family members, but I think to take this step, maybe that was something on a much grander scale that it would have made her feel embarrassed. Yeah. Well, she is a overly optimistic type of person. Yeah, a lot of people said that about Nancy. that she was almost too optimistic, you know, almost to the point where she couldn't accept reality.

And I think maybe you saw some of that play out with the divorce, right? Richard really strung her along for a long time. And I think Gibbs probably in the back of her mind, she kept thinking it's all going to work out. When really, if most people looked at the situation the way it really was, they would say, there's no way this guy's cheating on you he's spending your money on another woman it's time to move on yeah get out but she wanted it to work so badly i think she was willing to i don't want to say overlook things but keep trying i think is the right word she wanted it to work out she didn't want to get a divorce well you know there's some people out there they just don't know when things are

over. That's not easy to admit that things are finally over and you got to move on. And I think this kind of optimism dovetails a little bit into her symptoms as well. I think she overlooked this weight loss, this feeling of being sick all the time because she just didn't want to believe that this man that she had loved could be trying to hurt her. Now, she might, again, she might have hinted at it to a couple of people, but did she really believe it? In late October, Nancy's friends saw her collection of health pills from Richard. I think these were pills provided by Richard to Nancy to help her illness. The problem is they didn't help at all.

If anything, they made Nancy worse. She continued to get sicker and sicker. In mid-November, 1990, Richard moved back home. He wanted to reconcile the marriage. And Nancy asked him to prove that he meant it. And I think he was able to do it for about a month, you know, to act like he was back and he was dedicated to Nancy and the kids. About a month, he was able to pull off that charade.

Yeah, the problem with that is it just reinforces Nancy's belief that it can't be over yet. I might get him back. We might be able to work this out still. Yeah, I think what it probably did was it restoked the flame. Yeah. The flame had gone out because she had made the decision that, you know, I've got to get out of this marriage. I'm, you know, I'm going through with this divorce. Richard comes back and I think you're right.

Nancy, this very optimistic person saw him. putting his best foot forward and thought, I think we can do this. I think this is really going to work. It was about a month later. After a family ski trip to Colorado, Nancy told her sister-in-law, Mary Helen, that she stayed in the bathroom vomiting for an entire night. After she drank a nightcap that Richard had made for her, she also told Mary Helen that Richard never checked on her one time.

And we all know if you're that sick and you're married and your spouse doesn't even look in on you, there's a major problem. Yeah, you better, as a husband, you better damn well be in that bathroom, holding hair back, asking if there's something that you can do to help, get something. I mean, if not, you might as well just walk out to the dog house and make it up for about the next month or so because you're going to be in there. Nothing worse being in that doghouse. But I think it shows you Gibbs. I think it shows that this man, he didn't care about Nancy at all.

He wanted her gone. He wanted to be with Ann and he was just trying to figure out a way not to lose his money and his kids. He wanted it all. That's what he wanted. Bottom line. But even with all this going on, Nancy withdrew her divorce petition on January 6th. 2nd, 1991, and it was about a week later, January 9th, just after midnight, that Gail Golden heard a knock on her door.

Standing outside was Richard Lyon. He was holding a baby monitor. He seemed tired and distressed. He asked if Gail and her husband could look after his daughters. He said Nancy had been vomiting for hours and he needed to take her to the emergency room. And of course, Gibbs, I mean, this couple, they agreed without hesitation. Most neighbors would if someone was having a medical emergency like that. But what they couldn't have known was that this was the last time they would see Nancy a lot.

Nancy checked into the hospital at 150 a.m. She was 37 years old and previously had been in very good health. The doctors had no clue what had been called. causing her illness, and they couldn't seem to do anything to make her better. By 8 a.m., her condition had not improved. Her pulse was 144. Her blood pressure Gibbs was 50 over 18. That is not good.

None of those numbers are good. Nancy was transferred to the ICU. It was a few hours after she checked in that Nancy's father told Dr. Ali Bagheri, Bagari that he thought Richard had poisoned her. Initially, the doctor suspected toxic shock syndrome. Because back on January 6th, Nancy had taken some Zovarax capsules for some lesions on her cervix, but she didn't have a rash.

She didn't have a fever. She really didn't have the symptoms of toxic shock syndrome. They also ruled food poisoning out. Doctors tested Nancy for some different types of infections. They just couldn't find any answers. Dr. Bagarii waited 10 hours to speak to Nancy about her condition. He later testified that he waited so long because he had a very busy patient look. And he was waiting for Richard to leave so that he could speak to Nancy alone.

Okay. The first one, I'm not happy about that. The second one I understand, because he's already been told by Nancy's father that he thinks it's Richard. Right. So you probably do want to have that conversation without Richard in the room. He spoke to her at midnight. And she told the doctor about all the strange incidents that had occurred over the past year.

The next morning, Dr. Bagary asked her parents to search the home. and they came back with a red bag that contains some pills and a bottle of wine. Now, Richard asked the doctor if Nancy was sick with food poisoning and he even brought in some food to be tested. I bet he did. He's helping. Yeah. He's helping. Now, you got to think about Nancy's parents, right?

And her friends. They would have gathered at the hospital. That's an anxious type of situation. add on top of that the fact that their son tom nancy's brother died at the age of 35 now nancy is sick and in serious trouble at the age of 37 yeah i bet they are very concerned at this point i'm sure they were now i don't think they expected nancy to die most people wouldn't in that situation because you don't know what's wrong you just know that a person is sick well you got her to the right place. She's at the hospital. They're going to figure it out. But Nancy continued to deteriorate.

And I don't think it was very long, Gibbs, before Nancy's family started looking at Richard. Her father had already thought he had done something to her. Nancy's brother, Bill, told the Dallas County District Attorney that he believed Richard poisoned Nancy. So you have Nancy's family, very suspicious of Richard. I think Dr. Bagary got into that camp at some point as well. I don't think Richard's demeanor helped out. You know, by all accounts, he was pretty indifferent about what Nancy was going through, but at the same time, he didn't want to leave her side. Yeah, the same guy that didn't want to be around her when she was puking all night long at home now doesn't want to leave her side at the hospital. And why is that? Well, he wants to control that situation. Yeah, that.

that's my thought as well. He doesn't care what happens to Nancy. But what he doesn't want her to do is start talking about some of the things that he's been doing to her or that she's been experiencing. You know, outsiders are going to put it together. A doctor is going to put all of that together. On January 10th, Nancy's lungs failed. She was sedated and she was put. on a respirator. She never spoke again. And she died on January 14th after she was taken off life support. And he's something else, isn't he? Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, if you really want to give it away, do this, right? Richard terminated her life support without even consulting with her parents. Just said, nope, take her off. I mean, how stupid can you be? Now, we know a lot of criminal

do very dumb things. That's how they end up getting caught. And we're thankful for that. But when you look back on it, people are already pointing the finger at you and you're going to make this decision on your own, not even have a brief conversation with her family about what's the best thing for her. It's not going to go over well at all, man.

He's going to put on a pretty big show. The doctors had no idea as to Nancy's cause of death. Richard went through the motions, Gibbs. You know, he cried. He seemed devastated. But Nancy's parents very quickly demanded an autopsy. And that's good that they did. It's going to turn out to be good that they did for sure. On January 15th, the autopsy found lethal doses of arsenic in Nancy's liver and kidneys. Her blood had 100 times the normal amount. Okay. I I would say that is lethal, excessive. Her hair had about 40 times the normal amount.

That's not good either. That means it's been in her system for quite a while. Right. Detective Don Ortega of the Dallas PD homicide unit met with Bill Sr. He told him the investigation would take a while because he had to wait to question the prime suspect. The Dillards told Ortega that in 1990, Nancy found a canceled check from Richard to a company called General Laboratory Supply, a chemical distributor in Pasadena.

And I think at the time, Gibbs, Nancy told her parents that she was worried Richard was using drugs. I think her intuition was correct. Yeah, but not in the way that she thought, right? He was using drugs, but not on himself. Yeah, on her. After Nancy's death, the police advised the Dillard family to keep up appearances with Richard. They grieved with him. They helped him with the children.

That's going to be tough. Knowing in the back of your mind or suspecting, obviously, that Richard killed your daughter, but police still need to continue their investigation. So they're asking you to kind of act as if everything's okay. Keep them close. Yeah. I get the thinking, but I can imagine for especially the father, the mother, that would be extremely difficult.

Richard tried to cope by building a greenhouse and raising rabbits with his daughters. His girlfriend, Ann, appeared at the duplex just days after Nancy's funeral. And she continued to come by every few days. That'll be a little awkward. Again, you're not really portraying yourself as the grieving husband, are you? I mean, could you not wait a little bit and tell her, hey, don't come by. For a couple months. I'll come see you if I need to see you, but otherwise this is, you know, stay away.

This is what I don't get. You're really making yourself look guilty. People already think you are. Detective Ortega subpoenaed bank records from Richard and also asked General Labs to search their records. Records show that on November 19th, 1990, Richard ordered arsenic in liquid and powder form from General Labs. The package arrived at Richard's office on December 27. On that morning, Richard, Nancy, and the girls left for Connecticut. So a receptionist signed for the package and put it in the mailroom. The earliest date he could have picked it up would have been January 3rd,

six days before Nancy went to the hospital. In late February 1991, Richard left for a fishing trip in Mexico and he told Nancy's family that he was going with his friend John. The girl stayed with Nancy's family. Detective Ortega checked airline records and found that Richard went to Puerto Vallarta with Anne Gaseford. Their return date was February 25th. And it was on February 22nd that Ortega questioned Richard. They spoke for five hours.

Richard was calm and collected. never really showed any emotion, even at the points in the conversation where it would have been appropriate to do so. And to me, that's a red flag, right? Five hours, you know you're going to be talking about your wife who died. 40, 44 days prior to. And so those parts of the conversation, you would expect a grieving husband to still be emotional. But Richard showed none.

remember when we talked about Richard's childhood. He wasn't the type of person to show any type of strong emotions, high or love. I think also telling to Detective Ortega was that Richard had not called a single time to ask about the autopsy reports. Ortega informed Richard that Nancy had been poisoned. And Gibbs, even at that, he was calm and showed no type of, uh, no type of, response. I think, you know, again, there's the time where you're going to say, what do you mean she was poisoned? Who would have done this? You know, thinking as a person who's innocent, what are all the things that you're going to say? Well, he doesn't say any of them. He asked Richard

if there were any poisons at the duplex. And Richard told him that he had some ant killer and herbicide in the garage. Ortega asked if he'd ever bought any chemicals. Ortega. He'd ever bought any chemicals. Richard thought about it for a moment and said no. And I think it was right at that point. Ortega knew for sure that Richard Lyon was guilty. He had his man. So Ortega pressed him and he asked him if he had bought any chemicals from a lab outside of Houston. I think by that point Richard knew that police had dug into his purchases. So he told them that he had bought mercury and lead. to repair a battery. He said he also bought some cyanide and arsenic to kill fire ants.

He said he didn't know what he did with them. And he later admitted to putting them in the trash. Okay. I mean, you got to talk your way out of it somehow. Sure. Yeah. Doesn't make any sense.

But, I mean, could you not just go down to the local hardware store and buy some fire ant killer? You got to go to some specialized chemical company and get cyanide and arsenic. and do your own little Bill Nye impression in the garage. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't. He allowed the police to search the duplex in his car.

They didn't find any evidence. They didn't even find the Zoverax capsules that Nancy had taken days before she got sick. And Gibbs, I definitely think you had some conflicting thoughts by the two families. And I think that's often the case. You know, Nancy's family filed a temporary restraining order to get custody of the girls because frankly, they thought Richard killed their daughter. Richard's mother, Rosemary, showed up a few days later to help Richard out. She believed in this conspiracy theory that Richard had concocted. He thought that the hospital messed up or there was someone else who wanted Nancy dead.

And apparently when she got to the house, she threw out all of Richard's spices and bottles of vinegar. All right, mom. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Interesting. And Gaysford stopped visiting Richard. Yeah, he was gone all the time.

He had to hire lawyers to try to hold on to the custody of his girls. Richard was devastated. But when he got in court, he basically had to plead the fifth to almost every question. he did so because he was advised by his lawyers to do that. But it didn't make him look good, right? In court, Richard said that he felt betrayed by the people he thought were his family. Well,

I'm pretty sure they felt the same way. Right back at you, man. And in a much worse way. Yeah, tenfold. You took the life of our daughter is what they had to be thinking. The courts eventually returned the girls to Richard. And he won the, won this case, Gibbs, by testifying about Nancy's incestuous relationship with her brother Bill

when they were younger. That's a scandal that's going to shake the community. Yeah, and we kind of foreshadowed it earlier, right? The family was hiding a secret. Nancy first told Richard about it in late spring, 1989, when she and the family spent a counseling week at a psychiatric. facility in Arizona. Nancy and Richard also saw a sex therapist. And in that session, she admitted to the incest. Richard later said that he felt disgusted. He was repulsed. And for the book, Gail talked to Bill, Jr., who said that he and Nancy played some fondling games. They had some emotional intimacy and that they had reconciled about it all before she died. Now, Richard would say that Nancy was the victim, that Bill would pin her down and perform sexual acts and that she mentally withdrew from the situation to cope with it.

Pretty rough to hear. It is. It's also a pretty rough way to win your court battle, right? That's your Trump card. And you know he was probably waiting to play at the entire time, knowing he was going to have to play that card. It's a good card to hold. Well, you know, when you think about it, how can you give custody of these two young girls to Bill Jr. If these things are true, it would be hard for a judge to make that ruling.

On March 13th, 1991, Nancy's death was declared a homicide. When lab results came back confirming the timeline of arsenic doses, the medical examiner's office requested additional testing on Nancy's hair. The hair was sent to Vincent Gwynn, a chemist from the University of Maryland. He cut the hair into two-week growth periods. And really what he found out Gibbs was that in addition to the lethal dose Nancy received in early January, she had ingested arsenic twice before, once between mid-December and New Year's Eve and a sort of smaller dose sometime in mid-November. But Richard wasn't arrested in charge with first-degree murder until three months later. It was during this three-month period that Dallas County

toxicologist analyzed the health pills that Richard had been giving to Nancy. Most contained vitamins, but two of the 16 pills contained barium carbonate. One of the toxic chemicals Richard ordered in August of 1990. So my thought is these were probably those type of pills gives that you could pull apart. Yeah. We've talked about before. We definitely talked about it in the Tylenol poisoning case because a lot of vitamins still come like that over the counter vitamin.

And I'm sure they did in 89.90. Oh, they had to, yeah. It was on May 17th, 1991 that Richard was arrested in charge with murder. his trial began on December 2nd, 1991. His defense was led by an attorney named Dan Guthrie, who was a former assistant U.S. attorney. The prosecution was led by assistant DA Jerry Sims. One of the first witnesses was a repairman. He repainted and cleaned the apartment.

Richard lived in at the time he was separated from Nancy. He saw clear gelatin capsules, the same kind of. as the tainted health pills, the next tenant of the apartment found a prescription bottle in Nancy's name in the bathroom cabinet, along with the prescribed pills, were two antibiotic capsules with sodium nitroferocyanide, a second chemical that Richard ordered in August 1990. All right, not looking good so far. No smoking gun yet, but not looking good. Getting there.

The prosecution said that money was a primary motive. Well, when you're worth $1.2 million, you know. Yeah, Nancy was worth $1.2 million. She also had a half million dollar life insurance policy. But four months before she died, she removed Richard from her life insurance policy and listed her daughters instead. Nancy not only switched the life insurance, but also shut Richard. off from the joint bank account after he spent a bunch of money on a gift for and their nanny lynn peaswoods testified that richard didn't know about the switch even after nancy died the defense

produced a typewritten note from nancy on november 1st nineteen 90 notifying him of the switch the defense suggested some other suspects namely bill junior and nancy's former boss david bagwage Nancy had been a witness against Bagwell in a lawsuit and had even received a death threat in 1989. The defense called on Nancy's former coworker Kathleen Cunningham. She testified that Nancy feared and disliked David Bagwell. She and Nancy both received anonymous letters threatening the wrath of God. If they testified against him, Bagwell denied any knowledge of the letter. Bill Jr. claimed Bagwell was Nancy's friend and even visited her in the hospital.

The defense also suggested that Nancy took her life and framed Richard for her death out of Spike or that she accidentally poisoned herself. So they're throwing a bunch of stuff out there. They're saying it's probably this or maybe this. It kind of takes away from their defense, I think, a little bit. I know what they're trying to do. Well, they're throwing everything at the wall, right, trying to see what sticks. At one point, point they even said it could have been the nanny. They tried to insinuate that Nancy and the nanny disliked each other. Well, you always got to blame the nanny or the butler.

And Lynn testified that the two had some difficulties in 1987 when she was first hired, but they ironed all that out and she loved working for the lions. Detective Ortega testified to finding a storebot and killer in the garage and that Richard lied to him about buying the chemicals. His defense claimed that Nancy and Richard were making ant poison themselves. They had a fire ant infestation in their yard. And I think they pointed to the fact that Nancy signed the receipt when the chemicals were delivered.

Well, maybe because she was the only one home when they were delivered. Yeah, I don't think that really says a thing. You know, my wife would sign for a package for me, not knowing what it is. And she would just set it on the table. and when I got home, I would open it. The prosecution produced a nine-page letter from Nancy to Richard written September 12th, 1990. In it, she wrote, my nature has always been to be so optimistic, so positive, so charged up about

my life. And over this last year, in losing what I valued most in my life, I have let myself be so consumed by fear, unhappiness, heartache, and misery, that I have compromised my values and principles and lost sight of myself, my needs, and my dreams. I can clearly see that the children and I need and deserve so much more. They need a loving, consistent parent who is there for them day and night. They need stability and predictability. And a promise that no matter what, they will be defended, protected, and safe every moment, every day. I no longer have any desire to hold you to your marriage commitment.

Not only are you free to go, but I need to demand that you go before even more damage is done to the children and to me. And apparently the prosecution had Richard read the letter and he shed some tears while he did so. Gibbs, could you cry on the stand if you had to? Oh, of course. Cry right now if you need to do. I know there are a lot of people that can do it. You know, I do it when I'm sitting like here right now. And I want to start thinking about that wooden slat chair that I used to make you sit in.

Yeah. That'll do it every time. How it hurt my, my bum. Yeah. Two days later in the trial, Richard testified in his own defense. He argued that he said he didn't purchase chemicals because he thought Detective Ortega was only asking about the pesticides. He explained he bought. he bought the arsenic because of a fire ant infestation.

He even said that Nancy was the one who told him to buy it. He never told Ortega he received the arsenic on December 27th. Now, nobody could prove Richard ever picked it up. It was signed for by somebody at his company and then somebody took it. After his arrest, he called the receptionist and asked her if she remembered him mentioning that he hadn't received a package. She said she didn't remember. She nor anybody else saw him take the package from the mailroom.

He testified to being 250 miles away on January 8th when Nancy would have received the fatal dose of arsenic. Airline tickets, restaurant, receipts, and eyewitnesses all confirmed. He was in Houston and arrived home at 6 p.m. on the 8th when Nancy began feeling sick. The defense produced pages of notes written by Nancy. She'd been in counseling, we talked about it, and had written notes about her therapy. Two of the pages suggested she was having suicidal thoughts, and one page described the incest. The defense's handwriting expert verified the notes. A psychiatrist for the defense described Nancy's troubled, calculating, controlling, and

manipulative, and said that she poisoned her. herself to get Richard to love her again. Well, it's a lot to say. It is. It is. But can you find a expert that will say anything to bolster your side? Not everyone will, but can you find one? Sure.

Yeah. And I think it's been proven that you can buy them. I am for hire. Unfortunately, you are a expert in nothing. But yet everything. But everything. The defense showed a receipt dated September 6th, 1990. from a company called Chemical Engineering, located in Dallas.

The receipt showed purchases for barium, carbonate, lead nitrate, bromide, and arsenic. It was signed by Nancy Lyon. And Richard said he found the receipt with the notes. Charles Couch, the president of chemical engineering, testified. He said that in September 1990, a woman called him to discuss fire ant poisoning. He told her he'd look up a formula of chemicals for her. She asked if he could drop the notation by her house. He never dropped the note off because the woman came to the plant the very next day to get it.

He never saw her, but one of his employees gave her the formula. Charles said the receipt that the defense provided was a forgery. It had no invoice number and was typed. The defense countered by saying, even if Richard forged the receipt, it didn't explain the call. The defense also questioned the hair testing, saying maybe Nancy's hair grew fast, maybe hair coloring caused the arsenic poisoning. Her fingernails had five times more arsenic than her toenails. And to the defense, this meant that she handled the chemical in some way. The prosecution subpoenaed papers from Nancy's insurance company, including three pages of notes from a

therapist who treated Nancy from January 1990 to January 1991. She wrote that Richard told Nancy he felt trapped by the family money. The in-laws considered him inadequate. Their personal life was in turmoil. In June 1990, Richard emptied their bank account and failed to pay their bills. Nancy's sister, Susan, testified that Nancy found the check to the chemical company. and thought Richard was using drugs. Susan called the firm because she thought Nancy's erratic behavior was due to some type of

chemical exposure. But she also said she didn't recall it until after Nancy died. Tammy Gaseford testified that Richard told her Nancy died from a rare fatal blood disease, which obviously would have been a lie. Sure. Two days before the trial ended, Gibbs, I think almost definitely. everyone believe that the defense had achieved their goal. They had thrown enough stuff out there to raise some reasonable doubt.

But then the state called on a retired FBI document examiner named Hartford Kittle. He compared a number of writings from Nancy and Richard, not just the letter and the notes. They both had very similar handwriting, but there were a few differences. He pointed out key differences in the notes mentioning the incest and suicidal ideations. So this goes back to us saying they worked hard to kind of make their handwriting very similar. Sure did back in their college days. Well, there's one big drawback to that. If your husband is planning on killing you, he can write a bunch of notes that can make it look like you were suicidal.

You plan to do something to harm yourself. and this turned out to be a very big deal in the case because I think before Kittle testified, the thought was Richard Lyon was going to walk free. His attorneys were certainly setting it up that way. The jury deliberated for three hours. And on December 19th, 1991, Richard was found guilty of first degree murder. And this is such a strange case, Gibbs. The entire trial was upturned not by the timeline.

not by forensic evidence, but by handwriting. Richard was sentenced to life in prison in order to pay $10,000 fine. Gail Golden visited Richard in prison on New Year's Day, 1992. At the time, he was working on getting a retrial. And he basically said to Gail, you know me, there's no way I would have done this. Gail said that Richard had an answer for every question. he seemed very calm and he made eye contact with her during the entire visit, except for two moments, according to Gail, when she asked about his daughters and when she

suggested Nancy was poisoned by the Zovarax capsules. Okay. If that's true, that's a little telling, you know, that you're making constant eye contact up until the point where you're asked questions. that you can't answer truthfully because a lot of people, right, when they're searching for that answer, when they're going to say something that they know is not true, will break eye contact. Some people will raise their eyes up to one side. In March 1992, Richard's retrial was denied.

His appeal was also denied in 1994. He's currently incarcerated at the WF Ramsey Unit Prison Farm. He was eligible for parole in 2006, but was rejected. He was also rejected in 2016 and just a few months ago in March, 2021. He won't be eligible again for parole until February, 2006. At that time, he'll be 69 years old. I don't think they're going to let him out. Well, he still denies he ever killed Nancy.

But I think the evidence pretty clearly. shows that he did, but it's the reason behind it that just, you know, it floors me. He didn't want to end the marriage and divorce. He didn't want to lose his social status. He didn't want to lose his money and his daughters. So at a certain point Gibbs, the thought formulated in his mind that the best way out of this for him was to kill Nancy, the mother of his children, this woman. and that he loved. It's just hard to fathom that that, not that the thought might go through somebody's head, but that you would act on it and really think, yeah, this is the best way out for me.

Yeah. And I'll get away with it because I'm so super smart. Who's going to catch me? But now he's facing the consequences of his actions. It's such a horrible thing for this woman to lose her life that way. It seemed like she was such a good person. Everybody loved her. And she kept holding out hope that she could reconcile her marriage.

The whole time, he had no hopes of reconciling the marriage. He was just working on his plan to commit the perfect murder. Yeah. And he almost got away with it. And he would retain his daughters, his social status, and receive all that money, too. And that's what he wanted. And then he would live his life with Anne and they'd be happy ever after. Well, and, you know, you have to think about her.

for a minute. What do you think she felt after she found out the truth? Obviously he had lied to her. But when she found out the truth that he had poisoned her wife, okay, she's got to be thinking, man, I dodged a bullet there. Oh, I think she dodged a huge bullet. If he's willing to do that to the mother of his children, how long is it going to be before he's ready and willing to do that to me? Very good point. But that's it, Gibbs for our case on Richard Lyon. We got some voice. smells. You want to check those out? Yeah, the serum. Hello, Mike and Gibby. Happy Monday. I hope you're having a great week so far. My name is Sam. I live in Colonna, B.C. Canada, and I have been a very long-time listener

and absolutely love your show. I own a landscape company called Margaret Valley Landscaping here in Colonna. And I absolutely love to talk to others about their plants over Instagram, including Gibby and his attempt at Growing Peace Lilies. Nice try Gibb. We'll get the next house plant. Anyways, I just wanted to say hi. Thank you both for all that you do. And a quick shout out to my boyfriend, Johnny. He is turning 30 today and is also a long time listening.

I love the show. So with that being said, thank you guys so much. Have a great rest of your day and keep your own time taken. Yeah, Johnny reaches out to us now and then. And now she just outed you that you're trying to grow some peace lowlies. Man, they did not turn out well. Maybe she just stopped sharing so much on Instagram. They did not turn out well.

Happy birthday, Johnny. Yeah, happy birthday. Hey, Mike, hey, Gibby. I was just scrolling through some crime files, and I came across a case of a 14-year-old juvenile back in early 2000s who killed his math teacher in high school. His name is Philip Chisholm, that's T-H-I-S-M, his last name. And I figured you might want to look into it.

and maybe do a little podcast. So he's only one murder, but when he was in a holding facility, he actually attacked the female guard in the same manner that he attacked and murdered his pieces, so that's pretty interesting. All right, I'll talk you all later.

Have it to get. Keep your own time ticking. I think you need to keep your own time ticking. Sounds like he was racing the Indy 500. He was going around laps while he was calling. Now, we appreciate the call, and it's definitely something all right down. We'll look into it. Mike and Givie, this is Montessa calling from Texas. I have been listening

to you guys for a while. Love you guys. But I have to say, I have said for a long time, I would never, ever, ever date somebody again in my life, but I would change my mind for Giddy. I hope you guys have a great week. Take care. Well, there you go, Gives. I mean, how does that make you feel? She will not date anyone else, but may change her mind for you. She's awful sweet. That is very sweet. You should feel very good about yourself. Yeah, I do.

That you have that type of charisma. I don't know if I have that. That animal magnetism. I don't know what it is. I really don't. It's like that lost puppy out on the street. Yeah, it could be that too. It could be a combination of all of that.

Well, in my case, it would be the really old dog. That everybody feels sorry for? Yeah. I don't think so. I don't think so. So we had some mailbag. Jessica Beard sent us in an amazing podcasting trophy. Yeah.

He's got this old timey mic on top of it. It's really cool. She made it at her company called Major League Trophies and Apparel. See, we are winners. We are. It says we're the best on there. I like it. And then Patreon members, Brendan, Bob Newton,

send in some Twizzlers, some bit of honey and a boatload of beef jerky. Some good eats. There's so much beef jerky gives that it came in its own knaps out. I've seen that. But here's the really amazing part. You know, Brenda's a Mary Kay consultant. She put together a package for my wife, one for both of my daughters.

Yeah, that's amazing. They loved it. I mean, the fact that somebody thought about them, they were giddy opening up these packages. And there was some really cool stuff in there. Obviously, they're in the makeup. Yeah. And I know you really like that foundation. that comes.

Yeah, I stole a little bit of the foundation. Yeah. Keep that, you know, skin balanced. Got to.

Yeah. You got to keep the pH levels. I don't even know what foundation is, man. I don't know what it does. So now I just sound stupid. But that is it for another episode of true crime all the time.

So for Mike and Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.