True Crime All The Time - Robert Chambers

Episode Date: March 20, 2023

In August 1986, 18-year-old Jennifer Levin was found dead in Central Park after a night out. She had been attacked and strangled. When the police questioned Robert Chambers, the young man who was seen leaving a bar with Jennifer, he had injuries that indicated he’d been in a fight. Chambers eventually admitted to killing Jennifer but claimed it happened on accident after Jennifer injured him during “rough sex.” Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Robert Chambers and the murder of Jennifer Levin. This case gained the national spotlight. It happened in New York City, and Chambers was given the name the Preppy Killer. But, what grabbed the attention of many was that Robert Chambers claimed that Jennifer Levin was the aggressor and actually sexually assaulted him. Robert changed his story a number of times, often, it seems to conform to the known facts of the case.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 325 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always, as my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson, give you, hey man, I'm doing okay about yourself. I'm doing pretty well. It's so funny because your voice is better than last week. Yeah. But you've actually been sick all week. I have been. Yeah. This whole week had COVID. Again. Again. Again. Yeah. Luckily, this one. one didn't hit you quite as hard. You didn't end up in the hospital. No. Anything like that. But it's been rough. It's been rough. David to my girlfriend, too. I feel bad about that.

Yeah. That's going to happen. Yeah. That's going to happen. So let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Aaron Hawkins jump out at our highest level. What's going on, Aaron? Tanya Morman. Hey, Tony. Terry Stewart. Hey, Terry. La Dada Flores. Miranda. Miranda. Shannon Peterson. Peterson? Yeah, I like that. Leah G. I'm sure she's. She's glad to hear that. Yeah. Hey, Leah. Lynn Ryan.

Hey, Lynn. Jackie Diaz. What's going on, Jackie? Tracy Montgomery jumped out at our highest level. Hey, Tracy. Cody Reemersma jumped out at our highest level. That's our name, Remersa. Yeah, especially when you leave out the second M.

Ryan Paseka. What's up, Pesika? Nicole Lowe. Hey, Nicole. Doe Nell. What's going on, Doe? Big Dave. Ah, there's the Big Dave.

China Pelke. Well, thank you, China. Leanne Room. Hey, room. And Katie Widholm. What's going on, Katie? So thank you for all the new support. And then if we go back into the vault.

Let's go back. This week, we selected Megan Capps Sewell. Well, thank you, Megan. Yeah, so we appreciate all the support we get, including PayPal donations from Mark Gaston. There's Mark. Monica Abner. What's going on, Monica?

And Marissa Stock. Oh, thank you, Marissa. Yeah, thanks to everyone. Gibbs right now on true crime all the time unsolved. We have an episode out that we're calling the brash or die disappearances. We're headed to rural Alabama. We are. To talk about a couple of brothers and a cousin who imbibe a little bit.

Yeah. And there's a series of events and they're never heard from again. A little trouble because of the moonshine business. Yeah. So make sure you check that out. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I'm ready. We're talking about Robert Chambers.

And, you know, this is a more well-known case. It's 325, little milestone-type number. Yeah. We've been doing quite a few lesser-known. We have. I wanted to pull out one of the higher profile cases and do one of those. You know, the case of Robert Chambers received a ton of. of media attention. It did.

Back in the 80s and anyone, you know, who was old enough to remember that, you know, will remember seeing his image splashed all over the newspapers on TV and, and all of that. In August 1986, 18 year old Jennifer Levin was found dead in Central Park after a night out. She had been attacked and strangled. When the police questioned Robert Chambers, The young man who was seen leaving a bar with Jennifer, he had injuries that indicated he'd been in a fight. Chambers eventually admitted to killing Jennifer, but claimed it happened on accident after Jennifer injured him during what he claimed was rough sex. Well, I remember this story so well because I was a tenured professor at Hogwarts. What are you coming up with at this point?

I was, you know, in my early 20s. Okay. That calculation took a while. It did. Yeah. But I got there, you know, so. And that's strange because I was 13 years old and you were not that much older than I am. Well, I was.

I think your math is off. It, you know, I have an old soul. I think you were in your late teens. Well, 1985. I was 18, 86, 19. 19. So you were 19 years old. Yeah, but I felt like I was 20.

Okay. Ish. Okay. Yeah. Close enough. Close enough. I just wanted to give you a hard time. I'm usually giving you a hard time about how much older you are.

Yeah. This time I'm trying to help you out. I know. But, you know, this was as many cases end up being a case that received a lot of names, right? the preppy killer and and you know some of which we'll talk about but to me it's really this kind of argument made by robert chambers that this was self-defense she tried to hurt him instead of the other way around and he was defending himself yeah now whether the jury buys that or not we'll get into all of it robert chambers junior was a 19 year old college dropout he grew up in the

Upper East Side of Manhattan. His parents, Robert Sr. and Phyllis Chambers separated in 1984. Robert didn't come from a wealthy family. His father was a credit manager. Phyllis was an Irish immigrant and a nurse who once cared for JFK Jr. And it was said that Robert and JFK Jr. had a play date when they were both very young children.

There's an interesting tip bit. It is. It is. John John. Yeah. as the lane would call him. Right. And then obviously we know he later tragically died in a plane accident.

Do you know who I used to have play dates with? Mm-mm. No. Okay. Orville Redenbacher. I'm just going out on a limb. If you don't know, I won't say it right now. Okay.

I just didn't know if you knew. Well, just save that one for another time. But again, you know, we're talking about that's that connection. We're also talking about Central Park, New York City, Manhattan. do you think that that's one of the reasons why this case maybe got the publicity that it did? 100% for sure. That's like the media mecca. Yeah.

So you can go to cases that occurred over the years in New York City and just look at the press that they received. It's probably going to be more than if the exact same crime would have happened in small town Iowa. I don't think that's really going out of. on the limb. I mean, for the media, it has all the right buttons, right? It's got the New York City, Manhattan. Good looking guy. Victim. Says he's a victim. Yeah. And you throw the word out, you know, the sex word out there. And boom, you know, it's going to sell, it's going to sell print ads. Yep. I think you're exactly right. It ticks off all the boxes of a story that's going to grab readers attention. It's going to sell newspapers. And it is 1986. So newspapers are a big deal.

At that point in time, Phyllis worked double shifts to pay the rent and send her son to private schools. Robert also received some scholarships. It was said that Robert started drinking and using drugs. As a teenager, he was kicked out of a few different private schools for poor behavior in bad grades. He was also kicked out of Boston University for bad grades after just one semester. Robert told CBS many years later, I'm running around, partying all the time. I didn't take life seriously. I didn't take school seriously.

You know, there's a lot of kids that went to college for their first semester or two, or even more, that really didn't take life seriously or school seriously, you know, And you're sitting across from the studio from one of those individuals. I made no secret of it. You know, I got really good grades in high school. Yeah. And my first semester, I got really good grades in college. But I got swept up so quickly into that college party atmosphere.

Yeah. That, okay, I didn't want to go to class. You know, so when, when you talk about drinking as a teenager. How many of us didn't try to sneak something? And, you know, what, I was 18 years old when I got to college. And yeah, I was drinking. Yeah. A lot of people listening who are our age were doing the same thing.

For sure. Now, what I will say is a lot of people were able to do that, but still get up, go to class, kind of keep their priority straight. I just wasn't one of those individuals. I wasn't able to do that. You had your other business that you had to take care of. I did. I did.

But Robert also admitted to using cocaine three to four times a week. And it was said that he spent about $200 to $300 a week on drugs. Yeah. So now I just said that, you know, I did some drinking. I did this. I did that. I didn't do cocaine. No.

And I can tell you right now, as a college student, I couldn't have afforded two to three hundred dollars a week for any drug. You know, we were trying to scrape up six dollars to buy a large pepperoni pizza. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, asking, borrowing, begging, doing whatever we had to do to get a 12 pack or a six pack and a pizza. It was said that he got this money from his family, some from work and but also some through stealing. He targeted homes in upscale neighborhoods. According to CBS, the police estimated that Robert and a partner stole up to $70,000 worth

of jewelry and other valuables. Well, you know, he lived in the area. He knew probably what homes to hit that had something of value that he could probably pawn. But why does he need to do this? And it's because he got into, you know, this cocaine. If you've got a two or three hundred dollars, a week habit, okay, that's, it's $800 to $1,200 a month in 1986. Yeah, it's a lot, man.

That is a lot of money. How are you going to get that money as a, as a young guy? Well, he chose to, you know, rob houses. Jennifer Levin was 18 years old in 1986. She graduated from the Baldwin School, a private school in Manhattan. She had recently moved from Long Island. to Soho to live with her father and stepmother. She worked as a hostess at Flutie's Pier 17, a bar in South Street Seaport,

and was getting ready to start school at Chamberlain Junior College in Boston. So we said that, you know, Robert didn't come from a wealthy family. Jennifer did. Her father, Stephen Levin, was a successful real estate broker, but Jennifer's family still encouraged her to earn her own money. And I appreciate that so much. I get it. If somebody's got a lot of money, let's say they're rich even by whatever standard you want to use to measure it.

I still think there's so much value in having your kids earn at least part of their way. You can give them the things that you want to give them, but to give them everything and to never make them, you know, have to to work for it, to understand what money really means. Appreciate the value of a dollar. Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, my youngest recently got a job at a kind of a coffee, chocolate place. She loves it. She does. So number one, she found out that she kind of enjoys working. And then I think secondly, you know, you get, you start getting those checks. Right. and you learn what FICA is and you learn what all of these things are that are going to be taken out of your check for the rest of your adult working life.

Yeah. I think those are valuable lessons. I do too. I think it's a way to have appreciation for money. Jennifer's friend Peter Davis told Fox News, I did know some of the people who were a bit out of control, partied and caused trouble. I wouldn't put her in that category. If anything, she was kind of a nerd. His words, not mine, she was much more reasonable than most of us were. She was funny, loyal, and down to earth. Jennifer was the type of friend who was always there for her friends. She had a lot of friends, but she always found a way to make you feel special. She was always there for everyone. She was also very self-deprecating about herself. She wasn't afraid to poke fun at herself. She never did drugs or even really drank that much.

She was just a very regular person, unlike what the media reports said at the time. And I'm sure we'll talk more about the media and what came out. As a matter of fact, I know we will because one of the biggest things that people have an issue about with this case is how Jennifer Levin was portrayed. Sure. Yeah. So we'll go into that in some detail as we move further along in the story. I remember those stories when they came out.

On August 26, 1986, Jennifer Levin was found dead in New York City Central Park two hours earlier. She was seen leaving a bar on the Upper East Side with 19-year-old Robert Chambers. In the early morning hours of August 26th, Jennifer was out with her friends at Dorian's Red Hand, a bar that was popular among wealthy students. She had just come back from a vacation in the hamper. two days earlier. Jennifer spotted Robert Chambers, a casual acquaintance. Robert told CBS

that he thought he met Jennifer at a party and he believed they went out three times before August 26th. And this right here is very interesting to me because we're not talking about a stranger, right? Stranger on stranger crime. These two knew each other. They were, but at the very least, what you would call acquaintances, you know, depending on what is meant by going out two or three times, maybe they dated a little bit or whatever. Right. They knew each other. Sure. And that's not, they weren't strangers. Yeah, they weren't strangers. That's not always the case in episodes that we cover. According to Robert, he waved to Jennifer when he saw her at the bar. Now, he was dating another girl at that time who was also at the bar. When she saw him talking to Jennifer, he was. He said,

Jennifer, she got angry and left. The DA would later suggest that this made Robert angry enough to be a motive for murder, but Robert would contend that, no, he wasn't angry. It did come out that Robert did not use cocaine that night, but he did drink beer and tequila. Tequila has a way of bringing out some interesting sides of a personality. Yeah, I've had some experience. with tequila. I'm not going to lie about that. I had a really bad one where I essentially drank a

whole bottle of tequila and ate the worm. This was like mescal tequila with the worm in it. And yeah, things went sideways very, very quickly. I think the key to that whole, you drank the whole bottle, see? Yeah. That's going to do that. I think I did. I don't really remember. That's the whole problem. You just want to get to that worm. Yeah. I know I, I know I ate the worm. And that worm's always like, Always soaked. Soaked with pure alcohol, right? Yeah. Yeah. Jennifer and Robert left the bar around 4.30 a.m. and went to Central Park. Robert claimed that when he told Jennifer, he didn't want a serious relationship, she scratched his face. But they still continued walking in the park. He explained what happened next to CBS saying,

we started fooling around. You know, we never got undressed, undressed. And she reached down and she grabbed my testicles. And after a couple of seconds of talking and fooling around, she squeezed in between the squeeze and possibly the nails, it hurt. And in pain, shock, even anger, I reacted. I sat up. I swung my arm and I hit her. I would have to say heart. I made her fall to the side. I made her fall off my body. So I want to dissect this just a little bit. You know, part of this story, we're going to be analyzing Robert's account of what happened and, you know, seeing what's plausible, what makes sense, and then finding out, you know, what the jury thought about it. To me, right off the back, you're having this conversation and you're letting someone know that you don't want a serious

relationship. Okay. That happens all the time. Yeah. Between different people. It doesn't seem to be the type of conversation that would elicit some kind of major scratching of the face. Now, I'm not saying it couldn't. That just kind of struck me as a little odd. It is odd. To go to that, you know, point right away. And then if it did, they still continued walking and then later started fooling around. Okay, you're either mad or you're not.

You're mad enough to, to scratch this guy's face. do you leave in a huff or do you stay and fool around with him? That's going to depend on the individual, right? How much alcohol they've had. Yeah. There's all kinds of factors. And like we always say, I'm not saying it couldn't happen that way. I'm just analyzing it and kind of thinking more often than not, would it happen that way?

And my thought is probably no. No, I agree with you. Probably not. But Jennifer's not here to tell her side. Exactly. like a lot of stories that we tell, they're often one side because the other individual who would know is not a lot. But what is important, right? According to him, he hit her once to knock her off of him. Robert hit Jennifer in the throat area. He saw that she wasn't moving when he stood up.

He told her, let's go, let's get out of here, but she still didn't move. He didn't check. He didn't check for a heartbeat or try CPR. When asked why he didn't call for help, if it wasn't his fault, he said, it was my fault in that he was scared, even if it was an accident. Now, that part I understand. People panic. They make a mistake. Sure. It happens.

It happens. And could you, you know, hit somebody hard enough in the throat with one blow to kill them? I don't know. I don't know the science behind that. I'm not going to rule it out. I'm assuming it's possible. People are killed by one blow all the time. Oh, yeah.

I mean, with my karate or katate. Yeah. Knowledge. I can take your heart right out of your chest right now. Yeah. So again, we're just kind of analyzing everything. But there have been many people who have done something where they would not be charged legally, right?

you could claim self-defense. You could make this argument, but does that stop you from being scared? No. No, of course not. If you thought you really killed somebody and there have been people that, you know, have not, let's say not chosen the right path. Yes. Fled the scene, not called for help.

That, that happens. But Robert didn't flee the scene. He remained at the crime scene until dawn. Jennifer was found at 6.15 a.m. by a cyclist. the cyclist reported seeing a brown car speeding away from the area where Jennifer was found. Jennifer was found under a tree in the park behind the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Her body was covered in bruises, cuts, and bite marks, and some of her clothing was missing. Jennifer's bra was wrapped around her neck.

Her skirt was pulled up around her waist and her blouse was at her shoulders. Her clothing was also torn. Her shoes and jacket were lying in the grass. Inside her jacket pocket was $1 and her wallet, which contained her learner's permit and her birth certificate, which was altered to make her four years older. There were tire marks near her body, and there were indications. Jennifer was dragged through the grass. You know, makes you wonder that whole night he was there.

Couldn't he, like, straighten her clothes out, maybe take the bra off the neck? I think he could have done a lot of things, right? He could have changed the scene completely to make it look much different than the way it was found. What I thought was interesting right off the bat was that he essentially stayed there until her body was discovered, is what it seems like. Right. And then I think the other thing is when you kind of analyze this scene, it really sounds like some type of vicious sexual assault. That's what went through my mind as we're laying out kind of the way that Jennifer Levin was found. It really doesn't match his story.

No, that they were fooling around just a little bit and he hit her one time and she fell off. Well, and then you had the autopsy. And the New York Times reported that Jennifer's autopsy concluded that she died from asphyxia by strangulation. And it was also said that there was sustained pressure on the victim's neck. The key word is sustained, right? Yes. And so to me, that doesn't seem like it's possible that it could have come from one blow. Right.

Because that wouldn't be sustained pressure. And I mentioned that Robert Chambers remained at the scene, and it was actually said that he was there until police arrived. And they were the ones who told him to move on. The police interviewed Jennifer's friends and then went to question Robert. According to prosecutor Linda Fairstein, when the police first approached Robert, they just wanted to know how Jennifer got separated from her friends. They weren't treating him as a suspect right away.

but when they saw bloody scratches on his face, they became concerned. As they should. And I think any investigator would. That's going to be the first question they're going to ask. Where'd you get those bloody scratches? Yeah, they're pretty fresh on you. Robert denied knowing anything about what happened to Jennifer.

When asked about the scratches on his face, he said they were from his cat. The police later found more scratches on Robert's chest. he also had some bite marks on his hands. Well, I'm sure it wasn't from his cat. Well, I will say this. My oldest daughter has a couple of cats. And every now and then, man, she gets some pretty vicious scratches from those cats.

Now, if you saw her, you know, they're not normally to her face. It's usually her legs are, you know, sitting in her lap or whatever. But she's also not being investigated in connection with a. a possible murder of a young woman. So I think that context changes things dramatically. And I guess it would depend on how the scratches are laying on the face, you know, how much space is in between. Yes, what they look like and the measurements and all that.

At the police station later that day, Robert explained that when he was telling Jennifer that he wanted to see other people, she scratched his face. He claimed he didn't notice the. scratches until the morning. He also said that Jennifer tied his arms behind his back with her underwear. But to me, Gibbs, you've already lost a great deal of credibility because you lied about the scratches. Yeah, out of the gate. Now, I get why he didn't want to say that Jennifer scratched him. But when you later change your story, you're just making yourself look more guilty, right, in the eyes of

law enforcement because the question always is, why did you lie to us in the first play? Why did you deny knowing anything about what happened to her? And why did you deny about the scratches? Yeah, exactly. After several hours of questioning, Robert admitted that he killed Jennifer. He was arrested early on August 27, 1986, in charge with second degree murder. Robert made recorded and written statements indicating that he might have accidentally killed Jennifer because she hurt him while they were having sex in the park. And how many times do we see this, right? You have a person who's being questioned by a police.

Their first thought is to deny and make up a story. Of course. But within hours, you know, the police are pretty skilled at what they do. And they've got this guy confessing. You've already flip-flopped. You've changed stories. Okay, they got you. So he admits to the, to the killing of Jennifer, but then adds that it might have been accidental because she hurt him. And this is a really big part of this case. Well, of course it is. He said that Jennifer went, in his words, insane when he told her he wanted to see other women, she took off his clothes and squeezed his testicles so painful. that he reacted in a frenzy and killed her with a single blow of his arm. So that's not too much different than what he's kind of already had said.

You know, I can understand like intense testicle pain. We've all been there. Yeah. But I don't know if you're going to throw a death punch, especially if that person is known to you and you've been out with them. I just think it's unlikely. Well, I will say no one wants to have their testicles squeezed. if that really, well, there are some people, but most people don't want to have that done unless

there are people that pay to have that done, if you know what I mean. But I agree with your point. You know, this is a person that he knew. He was familiar with. Maybe they had gone on dates. They at least had been out before. They knew each other. Is there not another way that you can get this person off of you?

If this is, in fact, what happened. Right. then to, you know, throw some kind of John Claude Van Dam punch or arm blow or whatever it was to the throat. But then you also have to realize what the coroner said, right? Sustained pressure. Yeah. And she had her brawl wrapped around her neck. So this interrogation, we'll call it that, was videotaped.

CBS 48 hours reported on some of the statements from the video. At one point, an officer says, she's raping you in the park? Robert, come on. And Robert responded, she's having her way with me without my consent, with my hands behind my back hurting me. So I go back to this is just one of the aspects of this case

that I think really drew people in. You have a scene that at least on the surface, appears to be some type of sexual assault and murder against Jennifer. Yeah. But you have Robert claiming that she sexually assaulted him and he defended himself. Defended himself. And in the process, she died. But, you know, I think you can make the inference from that question by police that

they really had a hard time believing his story. The media soon nicknamed Robert the preppy killer because of his private education. However, Robert Chambers didn't live the preppy lifestyle of rich New Yorkers. We said he didn't really come from money. Linda Fairstein told CBS, he looked like a male model. People treated him like he was a graduate of an Ivy League college. and had this prep school background. And yet, in fact, his days were really spent with the underbelly of New York drug luck.

Yeah, but what sells more newspapers? Highly educated prep kid. Yeah. Murdering a young girl. Yeah. Roberts attorney Jack Littman presented the argument that Jennifer Levin was the aggressor. His approach throughout the trial has been categorized by many. as victim blaming. It's important to note that Robert was almost a foot taller than Jennifer

and about twice her weight, which led police and prosecutors to doubt that Robert would need to use so much force against Jennifer to defend himself. So kind of a little bit going back to my point, which is, right, you're this great big dude. And here is this young woman who's much, much smaller than you. Yeah. Who you say is attacking you. But yet your only way to defend yourself is to kill her. It's hard to believe.

Yes. I mean, look, you weigh at least two times what your wife weighs. Oh, easily. You tower over your wife. You know, I'm exactly a foot taller than my wife. I'm sure if your wife got aggressive with you and you wanted to offer away from you, you could do it without having to strike a little. her in the throat or doing something that would involve killing her.

Or striker at all. Yeah. You could just move her off of you. Yeah. Just using sheer, you know, body weight. Yeah. My wife's going to listen to this and be like, are you saying you're tougher than me? Oh, yeah.

Now she's going to pick a fight with me. I don't know. I'll show up next time you're going to be all black and blue. Yeah, I'm going to have a black eye. Robert remained free on bond, partially due to the help of Jack Dorian, the owner of the bar. Robert went to school with Dorian's son. Dorian offered his townhouse as collateral for Robert's bail. So wow, man, you're really going out on a limb.

I get it. This guy goes to school with your son, but if you're going to put up your townhouse as collateral that this guy doesn't skip town. You're buying into the story. You really are. And you're going out on a limb. And maybe he just, because he knew Robert,

he felt why would he lie to me? I feel like he's telling me exactly what happened. So I'm going to put my townhouse up to help his legal case. Well, I know I've had to put my house up as collateral for you multiple times. And you've always come through. And you've always come through. You've never skipped your bail. And I appreciate that.

Yeah. Because I still have a place to sleep at night. I do have to wear. It's weird because not only do they get me that ankle it system. The monitoring system? Yeah. You have your own system that you. tag me with.

Yes. Underneath my skin. Yes. And a few other ones that you don't even know about. Well, that's true. Vehicles. Yeah. According to the New York Times, Robert was charged with two counts of second-degree murder,

stating that he intentionally caused Jennifer's death in that he engaged in conduct that led to her death through depraved indifference to her life. So not too hard, right, is this trial is getting ready to start. to see where these two sides are at. The prosecution is coming at it from the standpoint of he purposefully killed her. Right. And we know the defense is going to make the argument that, no, this was self-defense. She was the aggressor.

And, you know, this is back to your point of seeing this in the papers. And what today would no doubtedly be called victim blaming, there was a lot of it. A lot of it. And I always go back to, you know, the Levin family. Not only are you dealing with the death of your daughter, you're grieving. You've got this trial that, that's looming, but you got to pick up the paper and see in print that she was accused of sexually assaulting him. Yeah. She was the bad one. That she was the bad person in this encounter. Roberts nearly three-month trial was followed closely by the public. Jury questioning started on October 21st, 1987.

Opening statements were given on January 4th, 1988. The UPI reported that Robert maintained that he accidentally choked Jennifer during a rough sexual encounter. He claimed that Jennifer tied his hands with her underwear and molested him and that Jennifer died when Robert pushed her. off him. So it does seem as though Roberts's statement has changed a little bit here in one very important way. It sounds like he went from one blow to knock her off to he choked her during a rough sexual encounter. Yeah. In which she was the ingressor. Because, you know, back to your point.

The autopsy says something very specific. So you have to account for that. That doesn't line up with a blow to the throat because that's not sustained pressure. Right. But obviously choking is. Yeah. So let's come up with the story that you choked her because that will fit the coroner's narrative. But how many times can you change your story and still be believable?

Yeah. I think once more than twice? Once is. is pushing it, right? Yeah. Jack Littman portrayed Robert as passive and indifferent towards Jennifer. The New York Times reported that in referring to a video tape statement of Roberts, he said the death was a tragic accident that occurred when Jennifer squeezed his testicles

and said that Jennifer's death was, quote, no one's fault. Chief prosecutor Linda Fairstein said at trial, in more than 8,000 cases of of reported sexual assaults in the last 10 years. This is the first in which a male reported being sexually assaulted by a female. Yeah, I think it's a rare occurrence. Not saying they can't happen. It does happen. Yeah.

We know it does happen. But it is much more rare than a female being sexually assaulted by a male. I just, I don't think there's any doubt about that. The statistics backed that up. but I was a little shocked at this statement. And I'm sure there's fact behind it, but 8,000 cases in 10 years and not one of them in which a male reported being sexually assaulted by a female. Now, there could be a number of reasons for that.

Yeah. It could be that many males would be embarrassed to come forward. Yeah. Too embarrassed to come forward or, you can think of a bunch of different reasons. reasons. And then I think you have to believe that the number of occurrences just are a lot less. But like you said, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It definitely does. Presenting this type of data to the jury is going to help the prosecution's case. Yeah. Prosecutors are smart, right? They're trying to say things that will help their case and not

help the other side's case or maybe hurt the other side's case. The New York Times reported that the first witness at trial was Patricia Riley, the woman who found Jennifer's body. She remembered seeing a tall man standing nearby. He didn't seem to be in a rush. And he stuck out from other people at the park because he didn't have a dog or a briefcase. Patricia said that sometime after the first officers arrived, she saw a man sitting on a wall about 30 to 40 feet away, watching the scene. She didn't know if he was the same. man she originally saw. Under cross-examination, she conceded that it could have been the same man. And this went along with Robert's statement that he sat on a wall behind the museum and was dazed,

confused, and frightened. A police officer also testified about the tire tracks and the brown car that Patricia Riley saw speeding away. The car was initially thought to have been important before Robert Chambers was a suspect. The police officer also testified that he found a pair of women's underwear, 45 to 50 feet from Jennifer's body, which seemed to support Robert's statement that Jennifer tied his hands with her underwear. And I was a little confused about that last part in the reporting because I don't know why that seems to support his statement,

just because it was found away from her body, not near her body or on her body. I don't know how you make the connection that that supports his wrist being tied. Oh, it supports is that they were at X spot at one point. And ended up 45 to 50 feet away. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Now, if you're going by that, he said at this spot is where she tied my hands and we had this and eventually I drove her body down there,

you can try to say, okay, it makes sense to his story, but it doesn't mean it's actually how it happened. It doesn't mean it's true. Yeah. Yeah, I guess that,

I guess the word support kind of had me a little confused. John Sakaro Jr., a bartender at Dorian's, and the son of a former Democratic VP candidate, testified he didn't remember Jennifer or Robert being drunk that night Zaccaro had known Robert since elementary school.

He had only worked at the bar for 10 days. As a favor to Jack Dorian, he did concede that he didn't really notice them because the bar got busy around midnight and he didn't see them leave the bar around 4 a.m. The New York Times reported that he said he thought they seemed happy and upbeat and didn't remember them having a serious conversation. Like a previous witness. had testified to. Witness Larissa Thompson described Jennifer as a physically assertive woman who went after what she wanted. Jennifer went to the bar, determined to spend the night with

Robert Chambers. This is all according to Larissa. Jennifer repeatedly mentioned wanting to go home with Chambers. When she and Jennifer got to the bar, Jennifer immediately went up to Robert's table. Witness Edwina Early testified for the prosecution. that Jennifer acted drunk at the bar. She did concede that she told investigators shortly after Jennifer died that she was definitely drunk at the bar and described seeing Jennifer leaning against the bar near Robert around 3 a.m. Early said she wasn't happy anymore. So we got some testimony here and, you know, I think jurors are going to have to try to make sense of it. What does it mean?

Yeah. Who's telling the truth or maybe everybody's telling the truth. Well, it could be a little bit of truth in all of it. What matters is what happened at the park. She has the right to be drunk. If she's drunk at a bar, she's drunk at a bar. Sure. She has the right to want to be intimate with Robert Chambers.

Yeah, if they both want to have that moment, what doesn't need to happen is for her to be strangled. Or for either party to be sexually assaulted, right? Obviously, we know one thing happened. somebody lost their life, right? But the other thing, it's been alleged that she was the aggressor in a sexual assault. The LA Times reported that the defense attempted to get access to Jennifer's journal by implying that it was a sex diary that had information that may exonerate Robert. Defense attorney Lipman subpoenaed Jennifer's father for the diary,

arguing that prosecutors told him it had details about king. and aggressive sexual activity by Jennifer Levin with many lovers. Jennifer's father, Stephen, gave the diary to the police to help with their investigation. And then the police gave the diary to the DA. The Levin family attorney said this had been an ongoing issue since 1986. Jennifer's family refused to comply with the judge's ruling that he be allowed to read the diary. The attorney said, these are the sacred private thoughts of Jennifer Levin. This diary is so sacred to the family. They feel even the court should not see it. So I get that, you know, as the family,

they've lost their daughter. Do they want all of these people reading her intimate thoughts? And I would say no. I wouldn't want it either. But I'll say this. When you, You've got subpoenas and you have a judge's ruling. It's going to be pretty tough not to have to give up that diary at some point. Another big part of the trial was comparing Roberts written and videotaped statements to the evidence presented at trial. He made statements that Jennifer was pushing and we've said it, but that he killed her accidentally in a frenzy when she squeezed his testicles. Chief Medical Examiner of Detroit, Dr. Warner Spitz, and Chief Medical Examiner of L.A. Dr. Ronald Cornblum disagreed over the conclusions drawn in the case.

On February 24, 1988, Dr. Warner Spitz demonstrated the prosecution's theory about how Jennifer died. They theorized that Jennifer's blouse was twisted into a news to strangle her. Dr. Spitz's testimony contradicted Chambers account where he said he grabbed Jennifer from behind and flipped her over his shoulder. Well, that's a problem for the defense. And again, it's just another chance to point out where he's made a number of conflicting statements about what actually went down that night. According to the New York Times, Spitz explained that there could only be one way,

that the multiple scrapes on Jennifer's neck and chin occurred, he believed her blouse was grabbed in front and twisted clockwise. And the assailant's fist hit her chin. Dr. Spitz and a court officer did a reenactment of the strangulation. He believed the strangulation occurred in two phases. The blouse was used as a news, but Jennifer managed to pull it away from her throat. And then there was a final compression that resulted in her death.

The compression, according to Spitz, could have lasted several minutes, but at least lasted 30 seconds. Jennifer had two sets of marks on her neck and two V-shaped abrasions. The marks could only have been caused by frontal strangulation using the blouse as a ligature. The crisscross marks on Jennifer's neck indicated that pressure was applied twice. And then the scrapes on her chin, as Spitz said, were caused. by contact with the killer's fist. So the punch to the chin to attempt to knock her out and then the strangulation with the blouse. Maybe multiple times. And then it sounds like finally a manual strangulation compression.

And that's what ultimately killed her. That's what I'm taking from Dr. Spitz. the defense made a number of objections during Spitz's testimony. And Littman said in a non-jury hearing that Spitz shouldn't testify because they had approached him as a possible witness. Spitz said that Lippman tried to bulldoze him into changing his opinion after he rejected the defense's theory. And I wonder how much this happens, right? You have these experts.

Some of them very well known. Warner Spitz is known all over in circles of true crime. Right. So, you know, if you're a defense attorney and you contact, you know, one of these high profile individuals, let's say a Warner Spitz, a Henry Lee. And they come in, they review everything and they say, no, I can't testify to that because I don't believe that's how it happened. I just wonder how many times that that actually goes down. probably more than we realized. Yeah, and you hope it does.

You hope that people aren't just saying, yeah, I'll say that for a paycheck. Right. You really hope that's not the way that it goes down. I'm sure it does sometimes. I don't think you're wrong. It's human nature. Somebody's going to come in and say, yeah,

I'll take that money to say that. On March 7th, Dr. Ronald Cornblum disputed the prosecution's theory. Dr. Cornblum testified that Jennifer was killed from her neck being compressed from behind. According to the New York Times, he also said that Jennifer didn't appear to have been beaten before she died. The wounds on her body were too superficial to have occurred in a fight, and the wounds on her neck were too widely dispersed to have been caused by the blouse. However, cross-examination established that Dr. Cornblum was essentially, initially an agreement that Jennifer died of asphyxia or strangulation. The pressure against her neck lasted for a minimum of five to 15 seconds in a maximum of a minute. He said under direct examination by

the defense that he believed the neck compression was brief because Jennifer didn't show signs of extended strangulation. Cornblum said that the two superficial wounds to Jennifer's face were consistent with the notion that she fell down on twigs and pebbles. In his opinion, Jennifer would have had more injuries if there were a real fight. Cornblum said, I believe she died as a result of compression of the neck caused by an arm chokehold and that she was flipped over on her face. So, you know, I just talked about, you know, people possibly saying certain things for a paycheck. And I'm sure that does happen. But it could also very well be that two respected doctors view the same information, the same evidence, and come up with different conclusions. Oh, I think that can happen in many trials.

Yeah. So I don't, I didn't want people to think that I'm saying every time someone disagrees, they're only doing it for a paycheck. I think sometimes you can look at the evidence and look at the coroner report and say, you know what, the victim probably died of one of two, three ways. I don't know if it would always just be clearly identified. I think sometimes you might have a cause to go with multiple conclusions. Well, let's take this, for example, strangulation. You know, both of these men said she died of strangulation. Right. So then the question, becomes how did that strangulation occur? Was it with the blouse from the front? Yeah. And then manually with someone's hands or as the other doctor testified, lining up more with what Chambers

later said in a alternate version, you know, from behind a chokehold, flipped her over type of deal. Right. Yeah. To get her off of him. Because my thought is neither one of these individuals were there. So they can't possibly know with a 100% degree certainty exactly how it happened. They can give you their educated opinion all day long. But I also think that makes it very tough for the jury. You have one doctor saying this. You have another doctor saying something a little different. but both doctors are saying that she was asphyxiated. She died from strangulation. The jury started deliberating towards the end of March, 1988.

The New York Times wrote that the jury eventually announced that they were at an impasse and could not reach a final conclusion. Three jurors sent notes to the judge saying they could not continue due to mental and emotional strength. I mean, Gibbs, I said earlier, the trial lasted three. months. Yeah. You and I have talked about it before, but you know, the, the toll that the research for just one episode, you know, kind of takes on you mentally. And then how that builds episode after episode, we have to be very careful with our own mental health and take breaks and do other things. I can imagine that hearing all of this stuff in a three-month trial,

could really take a tremendous toll on some jurors. And it sounds like it did. Yeah, a bit too much to handle. On March 25th, 1988, after nine days of jury deliberation, Robert Chambers withdrew his not guilty plea and pleaded guilty to first degree manslaughter. So he was facing murder charges, pled not guilty. But obviously, there was a deal that was presented. And maybe it was.

because the prosecution was seeing that the jury was having trouble. They were at an impasse. And they were worried that this guy was going to, you know, walk free or at the very least, it was, it was going to be a mistrial, a hung jury. They were going to have to do the thing all over again. So let's get him on something. I'm thinking that it was something along those lines. As part of the guilty plea, he was required to tell the judge.

he intended to cause serious physical injury to Jennifer. The New York Times reported that it took three tries to get him to say it. The first time when he was asked if he intended to cause serious physical injury, he answered, looking back on everything, I'd have to say yes. But added that in his heart, he did not intend to seriously injure Jennifer. And I'm sorry, I kind of chuckled there a little bit. You know, but I'm just thinking about this guy trying to work the system. Yes, I know you want me to say this.

So I'm going to say yes, but I'm going to add in this other thing that kind of contradicts the yes. Right. Basically saying, I'm saying yes because you guys want me to say yes, but really, I mean, no. Yes. No. So the judge asked him again.

He said yes, but then shook his head in what looked. like some type of denial. So the judge made him say it again. He finally conceded on the third try. You know, I, I think this was a guy who thought he could get over on the system somehow, game the system. And the judge just wasn't having it. And it was extremely important to Jennifer's family that Robert admit he intentionally harmed

Jennifer. Yeah, because not only did he. kill her, but he also attacked her character. And he had been, you know, very wishy-washy on the facts. What happened? Yes, she died, but, you know, self-defense, blow to the throat. Then it was a chokehold from behind trying to get her off of him. But to your point, the character assassination, which is she was the aggressor. She molested. me. She sexually assaulted me. I was just trying to defend myself. The family's not going to want to hear any of that when they don't believe that any of that is true. Robert also pleaded guilty to

one count of second degree burglary, part of a three count indictment unrelated to the case. And it was actually the defense who initiated discussions that led to the plea agreement. Linda Fairstein told CBS that despite the evidence she had against Robert, she couldn't prove a motive. She said, I can tell you as a matter of law that the prosecution does not have to prove motive. I can tell you as a matter of fact that there's nothing the jury would like to hear more than why it happened. And I absolutely understand that statement. Sure. There sometimes is quite a difference between what either side is required to do or prove, right? The defense is not required to prove anything.

You know, the burden falls on the state, but in the eyes or in the minds of a jury, even though they're told what each side is responsible for, does it mean that some juries don't want the prosecution to tell them why a person did it? No, I guarantee some do. Oh, for sure, yeah. I also believe some people want to hear from the defendant. And even though a defendant's not required to testify, I'm sure there have been juries who have held it against them.

For not testify. For not testify. Saying, if you're truly innocent, you would have gotten up on the stand. Right. Even though that's not how it's supposed to work. So, Mendego, you know, I talked about the prosecution. wanting a plea deal at some point. And I think they did.

You could get that from Linda Fairstein's comments, but it was actually the defense, right, that initiated the discussion. So I think both sides probably were a little leery about what this jury impasse meant to their chance of coming out successful. And maybe the defense looked at it as an operation. Here's our opportunity to get a much lighter sentence and get out from under, you know,

first degree murder and the lengthy sentence that would come with that. Part of the agreement stipulated that Robert would surrender at 10 a.m. on March 26th. So he could spend one last night with his family. On April 15th, 1988, Robert Chambers was sentenced to five to 15 years in prison. And I want to play a clip of Robert Chambers at Sentencing. We haven't been playing enough clips. I haven't been finding as many as I used to, but I found this one. And so I want to play it.

Today we came to see the end of a trial, trial with no answers, a trial of no winners. 11 family have gone through hell because of my actions. And I am sorry. For two years, I have not been able to say, I'm sorry. I've not been able to say anything. But now I wish to have my feelings known. Whoever said that time heals all wounds is definitely wrong. Because how can these wounds heal?

They linger forever, and the families will suffer. Jennifer's looking down on this now at the circus arena, looking and wondering why it all happened, and I don't know. I never wished any of this to have. I never wanted any of this to happen. But her name will live on. Not through memories, but by her family and her feelings. And I wish to apologize to the family and to her friends for all the trouble that they've gone through.

I've never wanted any of this to happen to anybody. To my family and friends, I wish to express my love and my gratitude for all they've done. I've only wanted to love them, but I never seem to grasp what it meant. For those friends that kept the vigil, I thank them on behalf of their families, And I'm sure I can understand the feelings they had. For those that kept the faith, they're always in my prayers. And to Jennifer, nothing I can do or say will ever bring her back. But I am sorry.

I just wish to thank the jury and the court officers for helping so much for giving me a fair trial. You let me each day with a smile and gave me encouraging words each night. I'd like to thank my lawyers for all the splendid work they've done. They kept my family together through rough times. And I'll never be able to repeat it. And to your honor, I want to thank you for the fairest trial that you can get under the circumstances. You didn't give any of the public pressure. You did what you thought was right.

And I appreciate that very much. Thank you. So, I mean, it was a pretty eloquent statement. I'm sure he thought about it. He wrote it out or he had someone write it for him. Either way, watching him say the words. I had a real hard time figuring out how sincere he was. He wasn't flippant about it at all.

He's very somber as he was delivering this. But to me, you just never know. Is this a show? Is this the, I'm sorry because that's going to make me look better down the road ploy? Or was the guy truly sorry for what he had done? I don't know if we're going to know that. No. No, I don't think you ever will.

Some people kind of give it away, I think, or at least give you a sign that puts you in one direction or another. He really didn't. He just delivered it very matter-of-factly. And he wasn't crying or anything like that. But he also wasn't smirking or giving anybody the bird while he did it. Right. So you got to hope he was sincere.

Robert Chambers also received a concurrent five to 15 year sentence for pleading guilty to burglar. The defense sought to refute allegations that referred to 20 bad acts in Robert's probation report that could be used against him when it was time for him to apply for parole. The report was confidential. But Fairstein said one allegation involved charges that he forged over $7,000 in checks during jury selection. So if that is true, you're on trial for possibly your life, at least your life as a free man, and you're going to go out and commit additional crimes while they're selecting your jury. Just doesn't make sense.

It doesn't make sense at all. Why would you even do that? After the trial, Jennifer's parents sued Robert Chambers for $25 million in compensatory and punitive damages, according to the New York Times. On August 10th, 1988, Robert wrote that he wouldn't connect. contest the civil suit saying, I elect not to contest the action for damages brought against me by the Levens. My only wish is for the nightmare to end for both families and friends. I do not wish the Levens to endure any more pain. And I think this was kind of a big deal because Robert's lawyer

told the New York Times that he warned Robert against this because all his property could be sold to satisfy the judgment and when he was released. Later on, his salary would also be taken. But according to the lawyer, Robert said he knew there would be no money available at the present to satisfy any judgment, no matter how small,

because he spent all his money on legal bills. Robert told his lawyer that he didn't want to cause any more pain for Jennifer's family. So again, I just don't know how much of that is. real remorse or not wanting to go through the legal proceedings and all that and just wanting to get it over. A few weeks after Robert pleaded guilty, the tabloid program, a current affair, broadcast a video of him pretending to kill a doll by breaking its neck saying, oops, I think I killed her. And this video

was made around the time of jury selection. So again, just like the forged checks, why would you do this and put it on video for someone to later be able to see it? And I remember that video back then. Yeah, I mean, all it did was lead people to speculate that this is what his true feelings were. Yeah. About the case. Cocky, Eric. They did it, but he was going to fight it and see what happened.

While in prison, Chambers had 27 disciplinary violations for drugs and weapons infractions, including assaulting a guard, he spent almost three years in solitary and lost his chance to get out of prison up to six years early. He was reluctant to express remorse. People reported that, for example, at a parole hearing in 1998, he said, there's no right or wrong in this. somebody died it was an accident and we've talked about this before here's what the parole board doesn't want to hear that you admitted in court that you intentionally killed Jennifer 11 and now

you're saying at this parole hearing it was an accident you're backtracking yeah they don't want to hear that they don't because to them it's you're not taking responsibility right for for what you did chambers was released from prison on February 14, 2003, after serving the full 15 years, his lawyer, Brian O'Dwyer, told the New York Times, rather than concentrate on any of the past, it's time for Robert to sit down with his family and friends, make a life for himself, and focus on being a member of society. He said that his client apologized to the 11 family in a statement after his release, and he accepted responsibility by not.

contesting the civil suit. Robert was required to give all lump sum payments he earned to the Levin's as well as 10% of his wages. But Jennifer's mother, Ellen Levin, disagreed with the release saying he has never admitted any culpability in this crime. He has never shown any remorse. He has never truly said he is sorry for the pain he inflicted on my family. Some drug dealers and people arrested for assault get a longer sentence than. he got. And Gibbs, that is absolutely true. You know, we're talking about the 1980s. Right. People were going to prison for 20 plus years for having X amount of drugs. Yeah, marijuana. And this guy killed someone. Yeah. He got so much less. And he also had the same sentence for burglary. Now they

happened to be concurrent. So they both were up at the same time. I do think that would be, very tough for the family. He's out in 15 years. Our daughter's gone forever. At such a young age, too. Yeah. After his release, Robert spoke with Troy Roberts from CBS 48 hours. This interview lasted four hours. Robert said he thought of Jennifer every day. And every day, I know that I'm in prison because someone died and I'm responsible for that. It's not an easy feeling. You don't get comfortable with it. and it's part of my life for the rest of my life. He also said, I can never make up for the death of Jennifer Levin. I can never make up for the pain.

I caused her family. I've been a bad person. Am I a monster? No. Because if I was a monster, I wouldn't care. But I do. So he's saying all the right thing. When he was asked about the 1988 videotape, he said I was stupid.

I was arrogant. Everybody was just acting silly and I acted silly. reenacting a crime, certainly not. But you could understand why people would think he was. Or at the very least so flippant and callous about this young woman's death. Yeah, it didn't look good. No, it made him look horrible. Troy Roberts told Chambers, it's very clear from the medical examiner's evidence and from the

pathologist that you choked Jennifer Levin. It was not just a split second. you had your hands around her neck and you squeezed. Robert answered, no, I did not. The cuts and bruises, she didn't sustain from any talk or any discussion. The bruises that she sustained came when I struck her. Robert also claimed that the last time he had used drugs was when he smoked marijuana in prison around 1993, 1994.

But an inmate misbehavior report shows that heroin was found in his cell in 19. So, you know, he was smoking marijuana. He was, he was doing heroin. He was not behaving the way he should have been. And somebody obviously was using their prison wallet to get this stuff. Yeah. Into the facility. After being released, Robert got a job at a store outside the city. He moved into an apartment with his girlfriend, Sean Coval, who he started seeing before he went to jail. As of a 2009 New York Times article, they had been together for 22 years. That's the commitment on her part for sure. Yeah, because a lot of that time he was in jail, right?

Most of that time he was in prison. Robert got in trouble for hundreds of dollars worth of parking tickets, driving without a license and driving with an expired inspection sticker. On November 3rd, 2004, Robert was arrested on drug charges when traces of heroin and cocaine were found in his car, he was also driving with a suspended license. In 2005, he was sentenced to 100 days in prison. On October 22nd, 2007, Robert Chambers and Sean Covel were arrested for selling cocaine out of their apartment.

Officers launched a three-month undercover investigation and purchased over $9,000 worth of cocaine from Chambers and Covel. Officers found 10 crack pipes, a marijuana pipe, and 2.10,000, cans with cocaine residue on them. During a struggle, Robert Chambers broke an officer's wrist. He's just not trending good, is he? No, I don't think he ever really was. You know, here, here's a guy who got what most people consider to be an extremely light sentence. He accepted a plea deal. I get that. But the sentence was was pretty light compared to what it could have been if a jury had found him guilty.

Now that's a big if. We don't know what a jury would have done. Yeah. We really don't because they seem to be real up in the air about it. But he gets out. And what does he do? He doesn't act as though he's got this reprieve. He's got this new start in life.

He just heads down the path of, you know, the criminal way. Yeah. And gets busted. on August 11th, 2008, Robert Chambers pleaded guilty to a legal sale of a controlled substance. The agreement would sentence him to 19 years and four months in prison and five years probation. Now, if he had gone to trial and been found guilty, he would have faced 25 years to life. He got more time for this than he did for killing her. Yeah.

Yeah. That's exactly the first thing that jumped out. at me. He also pleaded guilty to second-degree assault and received a six-year concurrent sentence. He was officially sentenced on September 2, 2008. His lawyer initially wanted to present a psychiatric defense. She planned to argue that his brain and judgment were damaged because of drug use. He was using up to 12 bags of heroin and other drugs every day before his arrest. Now, I don't know what they're calling a bag of heroin. I'm assuming it's a large quantity,

a fairly large. But whatever it is, if you're doing 12 of them, it's quite a bit of drugs. It's enough. In December 2007, Sean Covel pleaded guilty to third degree criminal sale

of a controlled substance. Her sentence was deferred so she could complete a rehab program. Upon completion of the program, she was allowed to withdraw her plea and plead guilty to a lesser charge. So she ended up with probation.

She successfully completed the program and was sentenced in 2009. She said outside of court that she still loved Robert Chambers. So, you know, as we wrap this thing up, Robert Chambers is now in his 50s. He's incarcerated the Sullivan Correctional Facility. The earliest he can get out, according to A&E is January 25th, 2024. So it's not all that. far away. It's not. That's less than a year way. That's if he's good. Yeah, that's if he's good and he doesn't get extra time added on. Jennifer's mother, Ellen Levin, became a victim's rights advocate after her

daughter was killed. In 2016, she spoke with the Today Show and said, I thought it was outrageous that he got more time for selling drugs than he did for killing Jennifer. Hey, we agree with you. Yeah, the exact same thing that you said, Ellen was instrumental. in getting the state of New York to extend the state rape shield law to homicide cases to protect the character of victims. Ellen Levin also helped fight for victims rights to speak in court and at parole hearings. Nothing that's important. I think all of that is very important. I mean, if you're going to have a parole hearing, if you're, you know, going to have a sentencing, to me victims have the right to stand up and you know express to not only the court or the parole

board but to the person who did whatever they did to them you know how their actions affected them ellen said i hope that the history of what happened to her has in some way affected change i hope that i was able to be a part of it and i think there's a lot more awareness than there was before Jen was killed. So as we see time and time again, there's a tragedy. And it's normally, you know, one or both of the victim's parents who just try to do a lot of good to honor their lost child. It's heartwarming in the face of, you know, such a tragedy.

I do think that this is a case that brings up a lot of important discussions about victim blaming, the type of language you use when discussing victims, as well as conversations about the fairness of sentencing laws for these types of crimes. And again, I know it was 1986. I don't know what that would be today, what a plea deal in that same exact circumstance would look like, but it is hard kind of to reconcile the time he got for the drug charge versus the death of this young woman. It just, it doesn't make sense. It's a substantial gap.

But I get it. One's a plea deal. But the other one was two, he just got like only six years off. The first plea deal, I mean, you're talking a completely different charge between first degree murder and manslaughter. Those are vastly different. But I also think if that case went to trial today, the media circus around would be different. The perception of the crime would be different. Yeah, I get what you're saying.

The one thing that would definitely be different, I think, I hope is the way that the media portrayed the victim, because that was a big deal in this case. And a lot of people had a huge issue with the way that Jennifer Levin was portrayed. I mean, today we use the word victim blaming. I don't even think that was a really a known thing back then or a phrase that was used back then. But if you go back through some of these articles, there's no doubt. Now, some people that knew her said some things that were kind of derogatory. One of those, one of her friends said on the stand that, you know, she did this. She did that. But as we always say, she wasn't doing anything criminal. No.

If she really wanted to be with him or have sex with him or whatever it was, even if she was flirtatious and came on to him, none of that means that what happened should have happened to her. She didn't bring this on herself. You know, if this happened the way that the prosecution theorized it did, it's one of the things that's really tough in this case gives is because a jury. didn't find him guilty. Now, he pled guilty to manslaughter and in court did say that he intentionally killed her. So he's guilty. So I'm sure he did that to ensure that he would only get 15 years. He didn't want to take his chance on this first degree murder charge. In my mind, he did it intentionally. I think there are people that argue he just said that because he didn't want to face, you know, a life sentence possibly or whatever it would have been.

To me, there's just too many inconsistencies in his story. I don't buy it that she molested him, tried to rape him. I'm not saying it can't happen. I just don't buy it in this case. He told too many different stories. He had a questionable track record before. He obviously had a really bad track record after prison, during prison, it just didn't seem like a good guy.

But the proof, the proving is a little tough in this case. It is. Because there were only two people there that night. That's right. She's not here to tell her side. No. And she wasn't there in 1986. So, you know, it's a tough case, but, you know, an interesting case.

And to me, a very important case. Anytime things change because of a case, whether it's the media changes the way that they cover victims. Yeah. Or, you know, her mother goes on to, you know, institute some of these great changes. You know, all of that's interesting as well. But that's it for our episode on Robert Chambers, the preppy killer. That's what they called him.

Yep. We got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Let's hear him. Hey, this is Casey from Idaho. I love you guys and listen to you anytime I can. We should come out with more episodes than you do, but I just wanted to make a quick comment on the Karen trail. As a special education teacher, you're almost offensive to hear autistic child.

So, and obviously you guys don't realize this, but it's a child with autism. So that's people first language, but I really appreciate everything you guys do. And I listen to you any chance I can get and keep your own time taken. Yeah, I wanted to play that voicemail gives because you and I always appreciate when people call in trying to help us navigate and educate on the words we use. Sure. I had no idea that that was offensive in any way. Same here. And, uh, but hopefully, you know, we always try to take what people say and use that moving forward.

It doesn't mean we won't forget, but, uh, we always appreciate it. Appreciate the awareness. Hi, Mike, hi, Givie. My name is Felicia. I actually found you years ago when I lived about 30 minutes south of Canton, Ohio. You were in near me. So this is my first time calling, and I actually had to call you because I'm listening to the Karen McCarran episode, and I stopped at midway through to tell you that as a mother of two children with ASD, it is a very stressful life. We love our kids. There's nothing I wouldn't do for both of my babies. However, by the end of some days, I am a mess. I am in tears.

I'm frustrated. I have mental breakdowns on a weekly basis. And my poor partner has to deal with that because we have to work around all of their needs all the time. And they are two completely opposite individuals. But as a mother, I can't imagine doing those things to my kids. But ASD children are purple criers all the time, and it's a lot. I would never wish harm on anybody's child, but as a mother that lives through two children every day all day long, I can understand how frustrating it could have been for her at that time.

I can't accept it, but I can understand it. Anyways, thanks so much for all that you guys do. I've been listening, like I said, for years now. Thank you so much. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking. Bye. So we had a lot of voicemails, a lot of emails, a lot of messages about this case. This case sparked more, um, you know, call ins, right ends. In any case we've done in, you know, the, the recent past, most,

almost all of them were, we're like that. We had a lot of mothers of children with autism who called in and said, you know, thanks for doing this case or we appreciate that, you know, you know, You helped educate people on ASD. We had a lot of emails and messages like that. But also many like this, which were, you know, basically backing that up, how difficult it is, which we said on the episode that we, we thought it must be to deal with day in and day out, but that they would never hurt their children. Right.

You know, it was almost universal that, you know, across the board. But we, we appreciate you calling in very much. We do. Hey Mike and give you this is Juice all the way down from Brian Texas. Just got done listening to y'all's Chris Bin-Wa episode 1 and 2. I have to say I did an awesome job. I loved every minute of it. I'm just calling it to clear up from misconceptions that I heard.

My nickname is Juice because I do take steroids avidly. So I just wanted to clear up something that y'all said, and I thought was quite funny. Y'all said that the use of steroids shrinks your grapes. I thought it was a great analogy, but that it's a common holiday misconception. What steroids actually do is it lowers your sperm count to the point where you're inept. So a better way of putting it is you shoot blanks after a while. And like I said, if the guy who uses steroids, I will definitely say that Chris's abuse of steroids was contributor. and I guess his murder-suicide.

Other than that, you'll do a great job. I love your podcast. I've been listening to it since, like, the first episode. You know, quality has definitely improved over the years. I'm team Givie and keep your own time ticking. But it's more funny when you say that someone's grapes shriveled up. Did it shoot in blanks? Yeah.

I wonder if juices, biceps look like these. I wish he could see your face right now. Oh my gosh. Okay, let's end on that. We had no mailbag. Yeah. This week. So that is it for another episode of true crime all the time.

So for Mike and Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.