True Crime All The Time - Robert Charles Browne

Episode Date: August 6, 2017

Robert Charles Browne had an IQ of 140 and was described by many as polite and courteous. But Browne had a quick temper and a rage that would bubble up to the surface. After being tied to a murder in Colorado, Browne will lead investigators down a cryptic path of trying to tie him to 47 other murders that he says he committed. If his claims are true this would make Robert Browne one of the most prolific serial killers in American history.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the life and crimes of Robert Brown and how he ends up sending cryptic messages to the authorities leading them to believe he may be one of the worst killers America has ever seen.Visit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact and merchandise information.You can support the show by going to patreon.com/truecrimeallthetime.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

and welcome to episode 39 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, what is going on today? Man, I'm just happy to be here. Man, you're just always happy to be here. Man, you're just happy to be here. So Gibbs, let's start with our Patreon shoutouts. Sure.

We have Kathy Davis, Jillian Major, hyenasaur. Hainosaur. Then we have Betty Jenner. Jackson, and I know you remember Betty Gibbs from CrimeCon. Yep. We took pictures with Betty, hung out with her a little bit, and Betty is the one that actually got the Crime Con tattoo. Pretty brave of her. It is.

Yeah. Because what if CrimeCon is not around? Now you're stuck with a tattoo. Yeah, but it does have her husband's fingerprint. Yeah. So either way, I think she's okay. She'll be able to future scans real easy. She can just put her arm right there and scan and be good.

Then we have Rachel Cooper and Megan Marie. Megan Marie. Megan Marie. It's like two first names. So thank you everyone, new supporters. And as we always say, we want to thank the people that continue to stay with us month after month. It is very much appreciated. Absolutely.

Appreciate all of it. So Gibbs, keeping with our new tradition, I want to give a shout out to one of our very early, early Patreon supporters. And that is Roberta Miller. You know, big thanks to Roberta for supporting us from the very beginning of the show. Yeah, appreciate that. She was one of our very first Patreon supporters. She's a giver.

Very much appreciated. So we do have a couple of voicemails that will play towards the end of the episode. It gives. Got to talk about true crime all the time unsolved. Yeah. Great episode dropping Sunday. at the same time as this one. Right.

About Greg and Bernadette Olamocker. And there was actually a 48 hours made of this. So it's a very interesting case. Some good twist and turns. A lot of twist and turns. So make sure you check that out on Unsolved Sunday night. If you haven't done so recently, make sure you check out our website,

True Crime All The Time.com. You find all of our contact information. Including our voicemail number. Including our voicemail number. A lot of people say that all the time. Put out the voicemail number. It's on the website under the contact section. And then also merchandising.

If anybody wants any of that, there's links on the website to that as well. And then the last thing I'll say gives is we got this Q&A episode coming up. It's probably going to drop not this week, but next week. We're going to do like a midweek. It won't replace a regular episode. it will be like an additional episode that comes out midweek. Bonus real. Yeah, bonus type episode.

Going to be good though. You know, we're going to hold back. Just going to be kind of free form. We haven't finalized it. So there's still time to get voicemails in. If there's anybody that has been wanting to do that, but hasn't sent one in yet. All right, Gibbs.

Are you ready to talk about Robert Charles Brown? I am on my edge of my seat. You're on the edge of the, of your seat about what you already know. About what I already know. The thing about Robert Charles Brown, not a household name, he's not a serial killer that's probably going to roll off the tongue of people when they start naming, you know, top serial killers.

Brown has been described as polite, courteous. I mean, this is how people have talked about him. Just a good guy. Well, I don't know if they said he was a good guy, but they did say he was polite and courteous. Well, that equals good guy. It can. Sure. Some reports have his IQ Gibbs as high as 140.

So as we've talked about, I mean, that is just short of where you're at. If you give me extra time, I come through. You can get it higher? Yeah. Just got to allow me a little extra time. So we're saying some good things about Robert Charles Brown here. The problem is he was also what you would call a disorganized thrill killer. and he actually could possibly be one of the most prolific serial killers in the history of the United States.

If Brown is to be believed, his killing spree runs from 1970 all the way to 1995. Wow, that's severe. We've done cases like this before Gibbs where most of the information does not come out until after the killer is caught. But this one's even different from those that we've done like that. This one's got some real twist to it. But we're going to get into all of that. All right, Gibbs.

So as we like to do, let's get into Robert Charles Brown's early life. He was born on Halloween in 1952. That is kind of a omen? It could be. No. Of course, there's a lot of people that are born on Halloween. Yeah, I was just thinking I got a niece that was born on that and she's wonderful. Yeah, I don't think that's a bad omen at all.

More of a weird coincidence. How about we call it that? Yeah, we'll leave it at that. Yeah. So he grows up in this very large family in Cushada. And Cushada is a small town, less than 3,000 people in northern Louisiana. I don't think you're saying that right. You don't think so?

Cushada? I'm going with Kushada. It sounds more Russian versus French. Well, our track record of pronouncing names in Louisiana is not what you would call stellar. Yeah, we're not very good at that. So let's go, I'm going with Kushada. I think we'll let it run and we'll be corrected later. And we have a lot of listeners from Louisiana because they've reached out to us before.

Because it just so happens, Gibbs. There's a lot of serial killers in Louisiana. And we've touched on some of them. It's all that swamp land. And the heat, man. The heat. Yeah, that heat. That humid.

Just drives people, you know, drives them to do bad things or something. But back to Kushada, which you so rudely interrupted me on, about 40 to 50 miles southeast of Shreveport. Now, Robert Brown was the youngest of nine. As I said, it's a big family. And his dad held a. a wide range of jobs. And when I say wide, I mean wide. I mean, he ran a dairy farm at one point.

He was a janitor. And then some point later, Gibbs, he becomes a deputy sheriff there in the town that they live in. Now, Robert's mom was a homemaker, which, what else could she be, Gibbs? Got nine kids. Nine kids, man. That's a lot. Somebody's got to watch these nine kids and take care of them. So that's what his mom did.

one interesting fact. So I said his dad would become a deputy sheriff. One of Robert's brothers would later in life become a state trooper. State trooper. You're just repeating what I say? It's a good flick. That's super trooper. Super trooper.

Can we not make it through one episode where you butcher a movie? Yeah, my bad. He's already pulled over. He can't pull over anymore. That's right. Miao Gibbs' childhood was not. great for Robert. That was a good super trooper.

Yeah. People that like Super Troopers are seen it. It'll get that reference. His mom was reported to have trouble with outbursts of rage. She was called emotionally unstable. And then you had his siblings and we mentioned he had eight of them. And it was said that they tormented him. They humiliated him growing up.

And on top of that, you have his mother reportedly allowed. all of this to happen. Not just allowing it. She may have encouraged it. At the very least, Gibbs condoned it. So Gibbs, we have to talk a little bit about the triad. We haven't been able to on a lot of our recent episodes, but we have information about that on Brown.

Now, he didn't have all three of the factors, but what he did have was torturing animals and he was into setting fire. So he had arson as well. Just to have the trifecta, we need bedwetting and we don't have that. Yep. So he had two of the three. Which is enough.

Well, I think those are the two big ones, right? I've never understood the bed wedding fully anyway. Right. Because all kids wet the bed. Are you wetting the bed at 12 or 14? Is that what it is? Or in your case, 43? 43?

Right. Yeah. But I think as far as those three elements, The two big ones for me are torturing animals and arson. And for me, the only one really stands out for me is the cruelty to animals. If you're willing to do that, I think you're willing to do about anything. I would agree with you on that. And then you and I talk a lot about people getting hit on the head.

It's not part of the McDonald triad. But that seems like at least in a lot of the episodes that we've done, a very big indicator, you know, some type of head trauma. So as a child, Brown had several traumatic experiences in his life. The first happened on New Year's Eve in 1961. And what happened Gibbs was that Robert's grandfather committed suicide by throwing himself down a well. Wow, man.

That is, it seems like a very strange way to commit suicide. At that point, Robert would have been nine years old. And then just a couple years later, his aunt is brutally murdered. So we're talking about a two-year time span Gibbs here where that's a lot to take in for a kid in a short amount of time. Yeah, for anybody, let alone a kid. Right. Yeah, you're right.

I mean, anybody of any age, but especially a nine, 10-year-old, you have to wonder what effect those kind of very traumatic experiences had on Robert Brown, both mentally and emotionally. So we talk about Brown in school a little bit. People would come out later and describe him as kind of a loner, but he did have friends. I mean, he wasn't a loner, loner. He just, he did like to keep to himself,

but he had a good number of friends. Well, he was polite and courteous. He was polite and courteous. But the other thing that they said about, him was that he had an extremely short fuse that, I mean, it could ignite at the drop of a hat. There was stories about, you know, playing basketball and gym. And if he thought somebody fouled him, I mean, he would just go off on people. And as we said, we know the guy's fairly intelligent.

He's almost as smart as you are. But he ends up dropping out of high school at the age of 16. So Brown joins the Army at 17, and he actually ends up serving Gibbs from 1969 to 1976, and he made the rank of sergeant. So he was in for quite a little bit there. Yeah, a good seven years. Yeah, during the Vietnam War, part of that, right? So he goes into the Army in 69, and later on Gibbs, he's going to tell investigators that he

actually committed his first murder in 1970 while he was stationed in South Korea. Was he over there with Arthur Shawcross? He might have been. Because Arthur did some bad things when he was there. Brown didn't do the same type of things over there that Arthur Shawcross did, but allegedly he did kill somebody. But they never could corroborate this murder. So this one's really just on his word.

but at the age of 17, he also gets married. And he marries a 13-year-old girl named Terry. 13 years old, Gibbs. Yeah, that's a little strange, but you know what? Back then, maybe, well, I don't know back then if that was acceptable. I wasn't thinking so. Now, if you were saying this was like the 40s or the 50s? I'd say maybe 30s and 40s maybe, right?

Yeah, I mean, I know some people in my family, a couple generations removed that got married very, very young. Yeah. It's not the age difference. It's the age difference at that time. If you had somebody was 23 and 27 get married, no big deal. 13 and 17, big deal. Oh, I see what you're saying.

Age difference is still the same. Yeah, so it's not the number. No. How old you are? At the time. Maturity level. Yeah. No, I got you.

But in my eyes, a 13-year-old shouldn't be getting married. No. Yeah. I don't know. I don't have. a lot of facts around the situation or, you know, how it all went down. But I mean, this is a real Jerry Lee Lewis type situation we got going on here. My question is, where are these girls' parents? Well, they could be okay with it. And they must have been. Maybe. I'm not okay with it.

That's because you got a 13 year old. Yeah. You're right. Now, while Brown was in the Army, he actually received a good number of awards. It's like we said, he was in there for seven years. In 73, he gets a divorce from Terry, but he marries the exact same year. And this is going to be like a revolving thing that we're going to have to talk about. He marries a Vietnamese woman named Tuit Menhune. That's what I'm going with. I was going to go with the same thing. Were you?

You had that same? Same, yeah, pronunciation. So we're spot on today. Yeah. Now in 74, Robert's father dies. The same year, his first child is born with Hune. He has a son named Thomas, but he divorces Hune in 1976. And this is the same year that he gets a dishonorable discharge from the army.

And it was said it was around drug abuse. So in 1977, Robert Brown marries for the third time. he marries a woman named Brenda Ware. And there was a story around this marriage Gibbs that really indicated to me just how Brown treated these women that he married because he beat Ware so severely at one point in the marriage early on because none of these marriages last very long that she barely survived. Well, like you said, he had a temper that drop of a hat went off. Yeah, he had a very short fuse and apparently he had no problem taking it out on women whatsoever.

And most cowards do. I agree with you. So this incident occurred sometime in 1980 because it was right after this that they got a divorce. So at this point, Gibbs, Brown is 28 years old. He's been married and divorced three times and he has one child. And the reason why I think it's so important that we have to talk. about some of these relationships is because it's going to come out later that these relationships, the failings, his thoughts about these women, they're going to be big drivers in why he says

that he chooses his victims. So Gibbs, the same year that he divorces Brenda, he marries a woman named Rita. And just after getting married, Brown strangles this woman so, badly that she ends up in the ER. And the doctor's going to come out and say that this strangulation was so bad that her larynx was almost completely crushed. It's a lot of rage. Yeah, a lot of rage. I like the word you used, which was coward.

Yeah. Yeah, you could throw a piece of shit in there too. Yeah, a few other chores. A whole bunch of other words. Anybody that treats a woman like this deserves all. all those types of words. Yep. All in all, Gibbs, Brown is going to get married five times.

And what I found very interesting is that when you look at the descriptions of all five of these women, they were very, very similar. So he had a type. Yeah. So you're getting into the area of the fact that he had a type. So they were all petite, all five weighed between 95 and 125 pounds. But Brown didn't kill any of these women. But I think you have to say Gibbs that all of them should consider themselves very lucky,

not to have had to endure some of the domestic violence and the physical abuse that they did, but lucky that they got away from this guy with their lives, knowing what we're getting ready to talk about. Yeah. Look back. I'm sure they're real glad. What? And that's something you and I have talked about.

on another podcast. What does that feel like to somebody to know that they've had a brush? And a lot of times it's just a like a passing encounter. These people were married to this monster for a year, two years, three years, whatever it was. I mean, it'd be pretty weird. I mean, they'd be weird like, you know, you did a podcast with somebody for a while and then you found out they had this stuff in their closet, you know, they came out later. find out that they had a secret life that they were they'd been hiding from you all this time yeah

involved a kbar and yeah travels and i'm sure that is going to be weird when it comes out for me definitely for you when i have to bail you out yeah but i'm good for it no you are and that's the one good thing about you yeah so just to touch on a little bit about what some of these women had to endure Brown's fourth wife would come out and tell reporters that he once put a pistol to her head and pulled the trigger, but it went click. Like the old Russian roulette? Kind of, yeah. I don't know if it was loaded at all, right? Russian roulette's what?

When there's one bullet in. One bullet and you spin it, yeah. You spin it and... I think in Vietnam they called it something different. I don't remember what they called it, though. What's a good story then? It's always a good story when you go down the path and say, but I don't remember what it is. And then Robert's fifth wife, you know, she would tell detectives that he was very vocal to her about how much he hated women, how much he hated cops.

And then you have his third wife said that he beat her one time because she forgot to put a spoon in the gravy. Well, I mean, how he's supposed to get the gravy on the taters? A spoon in the gravy. But you got to get the gravy on the taters. Now, nobody should ever be physically abused. Never ever. And there's no reason for it. So I don't know how you even rank it.

But that's got to be the worst reason I've ever heard of for getting upset with somebody, striking somebody, whatever the situation was. Get up and get a spoon, buddy. Yeah. Take care of it yourself. Get your own spoon. and this same wife is the one that would label Robert Brown to police as the devil's right-hand man. And she's quoted as actually telling the police, hey, call me when you pull the switch on this guy.

Well, she wants to be there for the electrocution, huh? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think she wants a front row seat. But can you blame her? It sounds like this guy put her through hell. And not just her. every one of these women that he was married to. I think they all would put their hand on the switch and pull at the same time. Yeah. If you don't want to be married, just don't get married five times.

Yeah. You just marrying somebody to have somebody there to beat on? I think eventually you just have to say you're not made to be in a relationship. Yeah, but I don't think people like that realize it. Yeah. I don't think they have the wherewithal. Well, sometimes I think people chase something that they hope they eventually get, but the grass is not always greener on the other side, but they think it is.

So they might have something that's good, but they think there's something better. Oh, you're just talking about why he moved from one to the other. Yeah. But sometimes you've got to cut your losses, man, and say, you know what? I'm not made to be in relationships because I'm just not made to be in relationships. Think about it. And that's a nugget of wisdom from Gibby. Now, Gibbs, Brown was arrested a few times in the early 80s.

And every time he got caught breaking into. some place that he was working at. But the most he ever got at any one time was 45 days in jail. Now in 1985, he actually gets charged with stealing a bell from the local church. Now, come on, Gibbs.

What the hell are you going to do with a bell? With a big-ass church bell. Oh, no. I spray-painted once. Vandalized a church bell? Not a church bell, but another school's bell. Oh, okay. I thought you were punching your ticket right there.

man. No, no, no, I wouldn't ever do that. Start vandalizing the church bell. No, this is another school's bell, you know. So you're going to steal a bell, I guess out of the, whatever, the bell free or whatever you call it. The bell tower. The bell tower. And what are you going to do with it? It's not like you're going to sell it on the black market.

Was it like brass or something? Melt it down. Hell, I don't know. You know? I get tired of trying to make sense of stupid things that people do. Yeah, it's pretty idiotic. It's hard, you know? I don't condone.

any type of stealing. But there are some that I understand better than others, right? I understand when someone's hungry and they're broke and they shove a T-bone steak in their pants and they walk out of the grocery. Sure. I understand that. I'm not saying it's right. Yeah.

And I understand when people that are addicted to drugs break into a house and steal some electronics and then ultimately sell it because they're trying to get money to feed that habit. Okay. I don't get stealing a church bell. Maybe you're right. Maybe it was what it was made of. Well, I'm guessing it had to be.

So this guy's got the tools or the know-how to melt it down or? How did he get it down? Those are pretty heavy. But he's not done stealing because in 86, he takes a truck right off a dealership lot, as you would do. You just walk on the lot, get in the truck and drive off. And he drives all the way to. Colorado. Now, not right, but you got to admit, kind of, kind of cool. Kind of badass. Yeah,

you know, walk in and the keys are there and you just jump in and drive off and keep going. Well, I don't know if you remember Gibbs, but, and I'm sure you do, back in the day, it would have been a lot easier to do that. You know, nowadays, I mean, hell, you can't even get in the damn car. Right. I mean, they got them all locked up. Need your driver's license. Somebody, half time somebody wants to go with you. I don't want some punk going with me. I want to drive the car by myself and. Yeah, get squirly with it.

Yeah. And in Colorado Gibbs, he's going to meet up with an old girlfriend and one of his old buddies. And at this point, he's into drugs. And he's into drugs in a pretty big way. He was into him because that's why he got kicked out of the military. He was, but I don't know to what degree. You know, it said he got kicked out for drug use. or drug abuse, but I don't know to what degree.

So he's kicking it up. He may have been pretty bad back then. I don't know. But you make a valid point. But right now he's into weed. He's into cocaine, but not just using. And he's into selling now as well. And there's a story that comes out from this friend of his in Colorado.

Now, it's disgusting, but it really goes to show the mindset of Robert Charles Brown. Brown because one night they're in Colorado, they're out partying, and Brown ends up shooting a cow for what I guess he considered was fun, right? There's no reason to shoot this cow, but he does. And then he proceeds to slit the cow's throat and drink the blood. Kind of like a ritual, huh? Well, I don't know. That's not a normal Saturday night in my hometown. So, you know, yes, it's disgusting.

but it's kind of getting to a little bit to what this guy's all about. You know, something's not firing. Yeah, he's missing a cylinder. You don't just go out and do that on a Saturday night for shits and giggles. You tip a cow. Yeah, cow tipping. I get that. You don't slid a cow.

Yeah, you don't, and then you don't drink the blood. Yeah. So I guess back to this incident Gibbs, what I'm not sure of is, you know, is it a combination of drugs? and maybe Robert Brown's twisted mind. I just don't know. A combination of, most likely, maybe. Of the two. So he ends up getting arrested for the truck theft back in Louisiana.

He gets 18 months in prison. He does about seven of those 18. Typical. And gets paroled in 1987. And now Gibbs, we're going to fast forward to 1991. And I know what everybody's going to be thinking. They're going to be thinking, you know, Mike, Gibby, where are all the murders? You said this guy's a prolific serial killer.

Yeah. So what you're saying to? Yeah. In my own mind. You know the story, right? Yeah. You've researched it too. We know he started killing in 1970, but we chose to do this one a little differently.

And I think you'll see why when everything is said and done. Or you won't. And you'll say that we're dumb asses. And that's okay, too. Yeah, go ahead and email Mike and let them know. Yeah, I mean, if you want to do Gibby underscore true crime on Twitter and just say you're a dumbass, he's fine with it. He likes it. Or you can just tell me that you love me.

He has no problem either way. So to tell this story correctly, Gibbs, what I think you have to do is you have to start with Heather Dawn Church. And Heather Church was from Black Forest, Colorado. It's about 12 miles away from Colorado Springs. She was 13 years old at the time that she went missing in 1991. Heather was described as 5 foot 1, 78 pounds. So we're talking about, you know, just a little 13 year old girl, Gibbs. Yeah, tiny thing.

Honor student, innocent, bright, bubbly, 13 year old girl. On September 17th, 1991, Heather was babysitting her five-year-old brother. Her mom was out with her two older brothers at a Boy Scout meeting. Heather's mom called home around 8 o'clock to check on her. They had a conversation. Everything was fine. But by the time that they got home around 9, 9.30, they only found the five-year-old brother. He was tucked in bed.

Heather was nowhere to be found. So as you can imagine Gibbs, as you would or I would, everybody goes into panic mode. The community comes together. They're searching. The police are searching. But none of the searches by either the police or the citizens that come to help would lead to finding Heather.

And it's not until two years later in 1993 that her skull was discovered on a road west of Colorado Springs. They were able to determine that Heather died from blows to the head. But really, aside from finding her skull, there was no clues. I mean, they just found a skull out in the middle of nowhere. There was nothing else that was going to help them solve this murder. The only real piece of evidence that they found was a set of fingerprints that they were able to lift off of the frame of a window screen at the church house.

And at the time, they had sent the prints out to the Colorado Bureau of Investigation and to the FBI, but there were no matches. They didn't get any hits. And Gibbs, you and I talk about Aephas, right, the fingerprint database. But this was prior to Aphas. So at this point, what you had was data banks of fingerprint. in each state. And then you had the FBI.

They had their own data bank, but they weren't connected. You couldn't just sit at a computer terminal and access the whole thing. So old school. That gives, I think you're right. It was a little bit old school because what they ultimately did

is they ended up sending information, mailing it out to a bunch of different jurisdictions around the country. And they had folks. photographs of the fingerprints. They also had some computer records that went with it. And it actually paid off, but not until 1995. So remember, she disappeared in 91, and it's not until 1995 that the authorities in Colorado

get a match on this fingerprint and they figure out who it belongs to. And I don't think it's any secret here that it's going to be Robert Brown. And we have to go back to Brown's arrest for the stolen truck in Louisiana because this is ultimately what's going to lead to this case being solved. You know, he was fingerprinted at the time of that arrest. And it's this unbelievable work that's done by the Colorado authorities that ends up getting that match coming back so they can figure out who it is. We have your fingerprints from inside that house. I don't believe you have any fingerpits I mean it's not possible

You may have somebody that are similar to mine But you don't have mine I wish you to take mine again and compare them We've compared them several times We got your fingerprints From the Louisiana state police You know I'm telling you they are yours So that is the real interview

And you can hear Robert Brown saying There's no way you've got mine Take them again, test them again But they had the right guy And the interesting thing, Gibbs, is that at the time of the disappearance of Heather Church, they realized that Robert Brown was living about a half mile from where Heather Church lived. And it was said Gibbs that he could actually see the church house from where he was living. So there was a theory at one point that they thought he could see the driveway. and he knew whether or not people were home or who was home or, you know, that was part of the theory that they came up with.

Right. So they arrest Brown. And after the arrest, they search his house or his mobile home or whatever it is. And they end up finding a whole bunch of guns. They find a lot of stolen property because apparently he'd been robbing a bunch of his neighbors as well. So after the arrest gives, while they're doing. background on Robert Brown, they discover back in Louisiana

that there were a number of women that lived near him in Cushada that had gone missing or had been found murdered. Louisiana, been there many times on our unsolved. Oh, there's no doubt. A lot of women.

And there's a lot of unsolved. There's a lot of solved ones too, but there's a lot of unsolved murders down there. But at this point, you've got the police, thinking that they may have a serial killer on their hands. So one of the investigators that was working this church case was a guy by the name of Lou Smith.

And a lot of people may recognize that name because he was a person that came out and talked about the John Bonnet Ramsey case. And I think he was one of the first people Gibbs to really come out and say that he thought that it was an intruder that had killed John. Don Bonnet. But you have him helping build this case against Robert Brown. And Lou Smith was very seasoned. And what he would say is that he had the feeling from talking to Brown that this was a guy

that had done unbelievable things, bad things. So he was getting like a serial killer-ish type vibe. It's not a word, but I'm saying it anyway. So the prosecution is getting ready to take Brown to trial. And his defense attorney comes forward with the plea deal. And this is where Robert Brown's going to plead guilty to the murder of Heather Church in exchange for taking the death penalty off the table. Now, as I think you would have in a lot of these cases Gibbs,

the prosecution reaches out to the family, right? They're consulting with the family. And it just so happens that the church family was not in favor of, the death penalty. So they agreed to let prosecutors move forward with this deal. Brown would be convicted of first degree murder and get sentenced to life without parole. And normally Gibbs, this is where you and I would be starting to wrap up the case, would kind of be given our opinion. Right. Getting ready to sign off. But this case is very different. We're just halfway into it. Yeah. Because what has...

happens is in 2000, Brown decides to write a letter to the El Paso County District Attorney. And this is El Paso, Colorado, not Texas. And Gibbs, you and I talk a lot about unsolved cases on our other podcast, and we're usually talking about whether or not a case will ever be solved. And I think that there's a chance that a lot of the murders, the murders, the we're getting ready to talk about would probably never have been solved if it were not for what's about to come next. I would agree.

So what you have is a cold case group is formed. They're investigating Robert Brown. He's already in prison. He's got a life sentence. But they think that he's a serial killer. You know, and part of this cold case group is this Lou Smith. And I think he's a big driver of the fact that, you know, whether it's, you call it a sixth sense, you call it intuition, or just the fact that this guy

had so much experience on the force, he thinks there's more to Robert Brown than what they know about. But this is where the twist comes, Gibbs, because it's actually Robert Brown who shines the spotlight on himself because he ends up sending a letter to prosecutors in 2000. in this letter, Brown hints at the fact of what he calls seven opportunities. And investigators take this to be him talking about other possible murders. So the cold case group, I mean, they jump all over this. And they actually write Brown back a letter asking him about, you know, what he means by this. Did he commit other murders?

They're trying to get some more information out of him. and he actually responds with another letter. And this letter Gibbs is creepy because in one part of the letter it reads seven sacred virgins entombed side by side. Those less worthy are scattered wide. The score is you won the other team 48. If you were to drive to the end zone

in a white transam, the score could be not. to 48. So a little freaky. Now, if you dissect the first part, the score is 1 to 48. I think it's safe to say that what he's talking about is they got him for one. Yeah, there's 47 out there that they haven't found yet. But he's got 48. Now, the next part's a little more cryptic where he talks about driving to the end zone in a white transam. The score could be 9, meaning they could find eight more? Sounds like it. Eight more fairly easy if they knew where to look. Well, he also talks about the seven sacred virgins laying side by side or in tomb side by side. So it sounds like he's

got seven that are located in one spot and then the rest of them are all, you know, individually murdered throughout. But it sounds like there's seven that must have been, the remains must have been put together in some sacred spot. I think you can interpret these a couple of different ways. It is a little cryptic, but along with the letter, Brown includes a hand-drawn map. And on the map, he has outlined the states of Colorado, Washington, California, New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Arkansas, and Mississippi. So we got quite a few states here, Gibbs.

And inside the outline of each state, he's written a number. And the number is meant to indicate the body count that he racked up inside each one of these states. So we talked about his first murder. And that was him claiming to have killed somebody while he was in South Korea back in 1970. On top of that, he would claim that he murdered seven people in Texas, nine in Colorado, 17 in Louisiana. That's a big number. Three in Mississippi, five in Arkansas, and two in California, Oklahoma, and New Mexico, and then a single person in Washington.

And I know where you're going, Gibbs, with Louisiana. you want to tie some of those into the different unsolved that we've done. Yeah, yeah, we've done a few unsolved down there and just wondering if that's him. Yeah, you just never know. That's a big number, though, 17 people in Louisiana. Now, if all of this is true, what Robert Brown claims, this would make him, like we said, one of the most prolific serial killers in United States history. Because you have Gary Ridgeway that confessed the 48,

murders. And this was back in 2003. I mean, what Brown did would put him, you know, up there, if not just past Gary Ridgeway. Yeah. He'd be in the mix for sure. So as you can imagine, this piqued the interest of this cold case team in a big way. And they try to get Brown to open up. Now, initially, he's kind of unwilling to talk, but they do get him to agree to have to discussions with them. And eventually he's going to start providing details about some of these murders. Now, some of this has done Gibbs and you and I have talked about this before by giving him things that he wants. If that solicits the truth, I don't have a huge problem with it because you're getting closure for families that don't know what happened to their loved ones. What I have a problem with

is giving a killer that has a life sentence for killing a little 13 year old girl extra privileges for making shit up. Right. And that's what you got to kind of weigh. I guess when you do this thing, first of all, you have to size up how honest you think this guy's being. And then you have to weigh this person getting extra privileges versus being able to tell

somebody what actually happened to their wife, their daughter, their son, whoever it is, after a lot of years of not really knowing whatever happened to them. Yeah, I'm not as worried because I just say throw them in general population when you send him off the prison. When he's done getting his extra privileges? Yeah. Yeah. Send him off the general population and let things happen.

Let the chips fall where they may? Yeah. That's the gibby way. That's exactly when it comes to this stuff. And I don't think you're alone in that. I don't think that there's a lot of people that would disagree with you. Yeah, prison rules take care of certain things themselves. A man that kills a 13-year-old girl, I don't think there's a lot of people that give a rat's ass what happens to somebody like that.

I really don't. Yeah, they shouldn't. Now, there's a, you know, I'm a compassionate person, but not for that. No. My compassion kind of goes out the window when you start talking about things like that. So they're talking to Brown. He's giving them details. But again, at the same time, he's getting a lot of extra perks.

And part of it gives would be like he'll say, you know, give me this. And I'll tell you about three murders. And then after that, he would ask for something else in exchange for details. about a certain number of murders. And at one point, the cold case crew and the investigators, they asked Brown whether any of his victims ever got away. And Brown answers none ever got away. I never gave them the opportunity.

He said, if you're going to do it, just do it. That's some cold-hearted shit right there. So one thing that would come out from Brown, as he was talking about the killings, is he said that he rarely ever planned any of his killings. He chose all of his victims at random. He met his victims in just everyday types of settings, motel bars, convenience stores.

There was one situation in particular where he said that he had worked as a maintenance man at an apartment complex and he had changed the locks on one of his victims. apartments. So I get that Gibbs and that makes somebody very hard to catch, right? You and I have talked about that before. But the murder that he got caught for was not random. It can't be very random. If you live less than a half a mile away from the victim and you have line of sight to the victim's home. Right. Too convenient. So when it's all said and done, the investigators are going to have a 44 page affidavit that paints this whole picture of Robert Brown, how he met his victims, mostly women,

there were a few men, and how he killed them. He said he used different types of guns. Sometimes he would use blunt force trauma and he would beat his victims to death. And we're going to get into some of these because there are some that have been corroborated that we can talk about. And like some other killers, there were a lot of killings that he said he committed, but he couldn't remember names. He couldn't remember enough details where anybody could ever really say for sure that his story was true because he didn't really have the whole story. Yeah. Well, I don't know if I would, if I was out killing 48 people in 25 years, I'm not really sure how much detail I would remember. I would agree. I mean, I think if you killed one person, now we're being hypothetical here.

Yeah, let's go hypothetical. You would remember that for the rest of your life. I believe. Yeah, I think you'd remember what you did with your knife. I think you'd remember every detail. Yeah. How you cleaned it up. Whether it was on purpose, accidental, whatever it was. Accidental. Accidental in your case. I think you would remember every detail.

It wouldn't be something you'd forget. Yeah, I think if you're just talking one or two. Or, yeah. So you get the fuzzy round three. Let's say you're a psychopath. You're a serial killer. Killing doesn't mean anything to you. I don't think a lot of those things are going to stand out maybe as much as they would to

somebody like myself, who is a normal person with normal feelings. Sure. A normal level of empathy towards others. Yeah. No, but I agree. I think we're on the same page there. Unless you're like a BTK that kept a scrapbook, right? Yeah, and he was just so meticulous.

So Gibbs, we talked about investigators being able to corroborate some of his information with independent evidence. And they were able to do that to some murders in Louisiana, Texas, Arkansas, and Colorado. all in all, they would say that there were 19 murders that Brown claimed he committed where the information that he gave was knowledge that only the killer or an investigator could have known. So there's some validation behind it? There really is. And that's why I say, now I'm not saying all 48, but 19 in and of itself is a lot. So if they think the 19 is true, there's a good chance that number is a lot higher when you get to some that he can't remember the details of.

Yeah, I can think, I think you can probably safely say maybe 30. That's what I was thinking. Benefit of the doubt, 30. But yeah, I think it could be every one of the 48. Yeah, because what happened is some of them, even where he had the details, you know, let's say he would say that he, he dumped a body in a certain place. Well, let's say it was a body of water. Well, they couldn't find the body.

But that doesn't mean he didn't kill somebody. Right. And it doesn't mean he didn't dump him right where he said he did. In 48, it's a big number, but it's not a big number over 25 years. No, yeah. Two a year. Two a year. Yeah.

I mean, you're scaring me, but I get what you're saying. I mean, it's a tragic thing. I'm not. No, I get that. I know you're not saying that. For somebody like that, twice a year. But really, you're 100% correct. Because killing 50 people is almost unbelievable when you think about it in totality.

Sure. But when you say that you've been doing it for 25 years, two people a year, it doesn't sound the same. Yeah, right. Right. I mean, it still sounds horrible. Don't get me wrong. Oh, absolutely. But if we're talking just about the mechanics of it,

could somebody do it to kill two people a year? Yeah, they could do it. A serial killer could easily do that. If they could get away with it for 25 years, they could kill many more people. I'm actually, to be honest with you, Gibbs, I'm surprised that the number in the United States is not higher than what it is.

I really am. And I think it probably is. We just don't know about it. We just don't know about it. Right. All right, Gibbs. So it's time to talk about some, of the murders that they believe are linked to Brown.

And the first one we're going to talk about is Catherine Fuzzy Hayes. She went by Fuzzy. Now, she was from Cushada, Louisiana, only 15 years old. And she went missing on the 4th of July back in 1980. So we're going back and we're going to run through the timeline of when these girls, went missing that the police are pretty certain Brown had something to do with. Yeah, this is where we're getting in where we talked about a little bit different than our normal format. Yeah, we're doing it a little bit backwards, but we almost had to, because of

the strange way that his murders are discovered. I mean, he's almost like saying, hey, here, I did this in a very strange way. And Catherine's remains would be discovered by a hunter on a October 16th, 1980. And this is what Brown says. He says that he met the girl. Now, he only knew her as Fuzzy. He didn't know her real name. But it was corroborated that she went by Fuzzy.

He met her at Uncle Albert's chicken stand, offered her a ride and a place to stay. He ends up taking her to his mother's house and they have sex. What he claims is consensual. but after that he ends up strangling her with leather shoe laces and what he says is that he puts her body in the trunk of his car and he dumps her off a bridge into a creek near Montgomery, Louisiana. So some of these early murders Gibbs, these were people that were in his hometown. Some lived very close to him and the murders were never solved until, you know,

He starts giving details. Details. Now, he's not going to be convicted of the murder of Fuzzy. And in fact, he's only going to be convicted of one murder. And we'll talk about it a little later. But I do want to throw that out there. Is it because they only find the skeleton remains and not an actual body that would have any type of evidence on it? I think you're on to something.

I just don't think they have enough evidence in general. You know, beyond what he's telling them, they don't have the evidence. to convict beyond a reasonable doubt. That's what I think. And you make a good point. You know, the remains that they found were skeletal. It's not going to tell you probably a lot about how she died because she was strangled. So the next person we have to talk about is Fay Self.

And she, too, was from Cushada, 26 years old, 5 foot to 100 pounds. Now Gibbs, we go back to the beginning. We were talking about Brown's wives. They all fell in this type of range characteristic wise. And you mentioned that, well, that's his type. I think it was his type. Yeah, it seems like it. I think you were right on the money about that.

So Faye disappeared on March 30th, 1983. It Gibbs, her remains would never be found. And she would ultimately be declared dead in 19. And the very interesting thing about this situation is that Faye lived in an apartment complex that was owned by Robert Brown's brother. And Robert also lived in the apartment complex in a building that was right next to hers. Now, what he would tell investigators is that he met Faye at a bar called Alice's wagon wheel. but he later entered her apartment through an unlocked door. He took a rag soaked in chloroform, placed it over her nose and mouth.

But it wasn't really chloroform Gibbs. What it really was was some type of commercial ant killer. Yeah, there's a few different things you can use for sure. Well, it must have done the job because it knocked her out. He goes, leaves and gets a rope, ties her up. he ends up having sex with her while she's tied up but she ends up dying now what brown thinks is that he used too much chloroform but i think she died from this ant killer yeah sounds like it so he comes back into the apartment gets the body puts her in the trunk of his car and again disposes of the body

off of a bridge in the nearby river and we've talked a lot about this on unsolved there are a lot of rivers in Louisiana that make for good places to dispose of bodies. And you also got gators and a lot of gators. So the next person we have to talk about Gibbs is Wanda Faye Hudson, also from Cushada, 20 years old, 5, 6, 125 pounds. And normally I would not read off the statistics like that. but the reason that I put it in is just to show that he had a type. He was stalking these women. Now, he said that these were all random. And they might have been random,

but it still means he has a type. There's no doubt about that, Gibbs, when you look at... Unconsciously, maybe. Yeah. Or purposely. Or purposely, yeah. Either way.

She was also a neighbor. And she died from multiple stab wounds, was found on May 28, 1983. So again, he's killed several people that were neighbors. Nobody's put it together yet. And I don't get that, you know? All these people around town showing up missing, that they can't tie it all in.

Well, and especially these people in this apartment complex that was owned by his brother, because Brown was the maintenance man. You would think he would be looked at. And Wanda was the person, and we kind of touched on it earlier, this is the one where he had changed her lock the previous day. And so he returned the next night and had the key.

And again, he ends up knocking her out by using what he calls chloroform, most likely was some kind of ant killer. But she didn't die from that because he did stab her several times with a screwdriver. Wow. And that's brutal. That is brutal.

to think about. I mean, be brutal to get stabbed with anything, but a screwdriver. Now, he would later tell investigators, as he's recounting all of this, that this was a spur of the moment killing. But to me, Gibbs, the facts don't actually back that up. Now, maybe it was a spur of the moment when he thought about it when he was changing her locks. But it's, to me, it's not spur of the moment when, okay, I've got the key. I'm going to come back the next night. I'm bringing chloroform. You know, that's not, to me, that's not spur of the moment. There's some planning there. That's premeditation. Yeah, I don't call that spur of the moment at all. So the next victim is Nida Mendoza. And we're out of Louisiana at this point. We're in Sugarland, Texas. And Nida was only 17 years old,

five foot tall, 95 pounds. And she went missing February 2nd of 84, and they found her just four days later. And what Brown would tell the investigators later on is that he met Nida at a dance club where she worked as a topless dancer. And what he says is that they agreed to have sex for money. And at this point in Texas gives,

he's driving this white van that he used in this job making deliveries for some kind of silk flower wholesaler. And he says he took Nida to a motel and this motel was right off of U.S. 59 in Houston. And it was not very far from where Nida lived. And Brown says that they did have sex and then after that he strangled her. He put her body in a bathtub in the hotel room and he set. to dismember her. He cut off her legs up at the thighs and he cut off her head. So again, when we talk about that this guy killed in a variety of ways, he really did. I mean, you're talking about

strangulations, stabbings. Now he's into dismemberment. Well, he's taking it up a level. Well, yeah, he hasn't dismembered anybody yet. So, but what he does with her body is he puts the pieces into a suitcase. And then he walks through the hotel lobby carrying the suitcase with these body parts inside. They couldn't fit all of them in the suitcase. So he got out to his van, dumped the body parts in the van, went back to the room, gathered up the rest of the body parts, put those in the suitcase. And he did that as many times he needed. I don't know how many times he did it.

But just think about that, Gibbs. gross, man. But it is. And to walk around with a suitcase, knowing that it contains the body parts of an individual that you've just murdered. I mean, I get why he did it. It's just gross. Yeah.

No, he's trying to get away with the murder. I get that part. But I'm thinking in my head that to him, this is no different than, you know, you or I checking out of a hotel. We've got our bag. We're putting it in the trunk and we're getting ready to go home. It's like you at crime. when you took all those towels.

And the nice robe? Yeah. You know, he put them in your bag, got him out to your car and your truck, I mean, and unloaded him, went back and got the rest of them.

But it's just that thought that to him, this is nothing more than that. Yeah. It shows you how little he values a human. A human life. Yeah. I absolutely agree with you.

So he takes the body parts to a field in Sugar Land and dumps. And then four days later, there's a man who is searching for his hubcap that had flown off his car. And he's out in the field looking for this hubcap and he stumbles upon these body parts. Can you imagine? No, I was going to say, I mean, so this is a person that has normal types of feelings, Gibbs. I mean, this would devastate somebody, I would think.

Well, I think you saw a cut off leg or a head. I think it would freak the shit out of you. Yeah. So the next victim, we need to talk about Melody Ann Bush. She was also from Sugar Land, 22 years old, 5-9, 120 pounds. She was last seen somewhere around March 18th into March 19, 1984. Witnesses would say that she was barefoot, she had been drinking, she was intoxicated, and she walked out of a place called the Stag Bar.

Nobody ever saw her again. She was declared missing March 30th. And they would find her body in a culvert along the highway that very same day, just north of a place called Flatonia. And at the time, Gibbs, authorities, they couldn't figure out what had killed her. And then they did the autopsy. And the autopsy comes back and lists the cause of death. as cute acetone poisoning.

That's like the stuff my daughter uses to take her nail polish off. Yeah, it's exactly what is in nail polish remover. And I think it's in like paint remover and things like that. Now, what happens early on in this investigation is that they start to look at her husband, Robert, because I guess they had both been drinking that night together. They got in an argument, but they could never come up with any evidence that tied Robert to the murder. Now, what Brown would say is that he was staying at the same hotel as Melody. And he gave her a ride back to the hotel after she had gotten into this fight with her husband.

So this is good. So you got what witnesses seeing, the husband and the wife fighting. And then she shows up murdered. So they go after him hard, I would think. Yeah, because he's the last person witnesses see her with. Yeah. He is her husband. We know that, you know, a lot of times that's the first person that's looked at.

But Brown says that they go to his room. They have sex. And again, he always talks about it being consensual. Now, whether it was or not, I don't know. But he makes a point when he talks to investigators to stress that the sex and all these encounters was consensual. But I don't know how it was, Gibbs, because we talked about it earlier. He tied one of these ladies up. That's not consensual.

No. And again, Brown says that he placed some kind of rag over her nose and mouth, and then he stabbed her in the chest with an ice pick. Nice guy. But I think that's where you get the autopsy report about the acetone. Right. So whatever he put on the rag caused that to get into her system. But you would think it would have been pretty easy to tell that she was stabbed in the chest with an ice pick.

So that had to have. been on the autopsy report as well. You would think. So Gibbs, now I want to talk about Rosio Sperry. And she was from Colorado Springs, Colorado. So we've gone from Louisiana. He's moved to Texas. Now he's up into Colorado.

She was only 15 years old, 5-4, 104 pounds. But at the time, she was married to a soldier. And she had a daughter. She was last seen in Colorado Springs, November. 10th, 1987, driving a gray and white Pontiac Grand Dame. Now, I mentioned her husband was a soldier. He was stationed at Fort Carson, but at the time, he had taken their daughter and was visiting family in Florida. She ultimately gets reported missing on November 15th, and her remains were never found. So now Brown comes in, and he's telling the investigators that

Rocio came into this convenience store where he was working and they would talk and she was telling him about some of the things that were going on with the family. I guess her and her husband weren't getting along all that well. And he told investigators that she said that her husband was out of town with their daughter. She was all alone. And she actually agrees to go to the movies with him. Brown says that they go to the movies and then after that back to his apartment

they have sex he strangles her puts her body in the bathtub and dismembers her and this time he does it at the joints but he takes all of the body parts puts them in trash bags

and then puts him in the dumpster behind his apartment Wow now what he would tell investigators is that he knew that the pickup schedule was the very next day. And that's why he felt comfortable putting the body parts in the dumpster because he knew they weren't going to be there very long. Now, one thing we have to talk about Gibbs,

Roseo, she was supposed to pick her husband up at the airport. He was flying back in with her daughter from Florida. And she never shows up. So the husband goes to the apartment. There's no sign of his wife. Who's the first person that police is going to look at, the husband? Yep. And in this case, they really do.

And it changes his life because he's a suspect or let's say he's suspected of this murder all the way up until the time that Brown comes forward with this information. So you have that living your life with all of these people thinking that. you probably killed your wife. Then you have your baby girl growing up wondering whether or not her father murdered her mother. Yeah, man. Can you imagine that? No, no. I mean, how terrible could that possibly be?

I mean, I really feel for this guy, Gibbs, because to be in a situation like that, knowing you had nothing to do with it. And your life is essentially turned upside down, ruined. Yeah. Over something that somebody else did. There's not somebody that comes to you later and say, oh, man. I feel bad that I thought. Yeah, you were always right and we didn't believe you. And they hit the redo button so you can restart your life and, you know, no, it doesn't work that way.

But this is the murder that Brown would ultimately plead guilty to in 2006. And he would get another life sentence on top of the one that he already had. and the reason why this was important is because we talked about the fact that they had taken off the death penalty in the Heather Church case and they were desperately trying to get him on another count of murder just in case anything went wrong, let's say in one of the appeals or Gibbs, anything like that in the first one. Yeah, they want a contingency plan. Yeah. the last thing in the world they wanted was this guy out on the street. They knew he was a bad guy. It was just a matter of getting enough evidence to pin something on him.

So there's one more Gibbs that we have to talk about that police or investigators are pretty confident about. And this is Lisa Lowe. And this actually happened in West Memphis, Arkansas, in 1991. She was 21 years old, five foot tall, 125 pounds. So again, every one of these women that we've listed, they have been so similar. Now, some have been a little taller. Yeah, we had the tallest one of 5 foot 9.

Yeah. But weight-wise, they have been in such a small range. It's eerie about what his type was. So she's reported missing November 3rd, 91. her body would be discovered November 26, 91, and at the time, they couldn't determine her cause of death. Lisa's last known whereabouts center around her leaving her boyfriend's house and heading into Memphis to go to a nightclub.

Now, Brown would say that this is where he met her, and the two of them would leave the nightclub, drive to Arkansas, to a wooded area right off the highway. And Brown says that she performed oral sex on him and that he strangled her afterwards. And it was a little fuzzy on this one because he thought he may have shot her as well. He would later dump her body in the St. Francis River.

But that's a lot of women. And that's a lot of cold cases. Now, really only the Perry case is officially solved. He got convicted of that. But you have to think that, I don't want to call it closure Gibbs, but there's some type of comfort in just the knowledge, maybe of what happened to some of these people for their families. Yeah, I would say so. I mean, rather than not knowing at all. Yeah. I think that's the worst thing, not knowing years and years and years. Well, it's horrible that it happened, obviously, but then to not know exactly what happened or to not know who was responsible

for it, that has to be, that's another kind of hell. So Gibbs, as we start to wrap up, I want to talk a little bit about how Brown was able to get away with some of these murders, regardless of what the number is, right? We're never going to know the real number. But my thought is, is it's probably pretty high, whether it's 19 or whether it's 48, it's a big number. Yeah, it is. And I think it's higher than the 19. I do too, honestly. The investigators come out and they talk about all the different ways that they use to track criminals. And, you know, one of them is by using credit and job history and things like that, right, to pin down someone's timeline. you know, where they were at some certain point in time.

The problem with Robert Brown is that he was traveling a lot back and forth in some of these delivery type jobs that he had. If you're traveling a lot from one place to the other, and in the case of Brown, you know, he's stopping at a hotel, he's going to these bars. It's giving him an opportunity far away from home in some cases to target. to target people and women in particular. Kind of makes for a successful killer.

If you're more mobile. Oh, there's no doubt. I mean, kind of like before we start recording, we were kind of talking about the success rate of a serial killer depends on how mobile they are, I think, in a morbid way. I think it has a lot to do with it because if you look back at some of the people we profiled Gibbs, Israel Keys, and now he was mobile in a different way.

Yeah, that was extreme mobile. Yeah, that was extreme mobility. Yeah. Tommy Lynn Sells was hopping all over state to state. There's no doubt that that makes it harder to track these people. Yeah. To pin them down to certain locations at certain times. Now, when Brown would talk about, he didn't call it trolling.

He called it looking for opportunities. And I'm using my air quotes. I haven't used them in a while. Yeah, you got them up there pretty high. So that's what he called when he, was out looking for victims, looking for opportunities. And I think you could probably say that about a lot of serial killers, right? When the opportunity arises, they seize it.

But him being a truck driver, you know, and a delivery driver and things like that. It aids in the convenience of. I think it does. The other thing that investigators thought was that he never spent very much time with his victims, right? A lot of these things that we're talking about, he may have picked them up at a bar, but he ends up killing them that night very quickly.

Well, you keep from having that, you know, relationship with them. Right. So it does a lot of things. Limits the amount of time that people have to see you with them, connect you with them, things like that. One more thing that investigators really talked about a lot was that how adept Robert Brown was at disposing of bodies. That was something that they really thought aided him in his ability to get away with

what he did for such a long time. At one point, an investigator was asking him in prison about, basically about how he did what he did. How did he go about it? And he told the investigator that he never went looking for anyone. And this goes back to opportunity. He just, waited for an opportunity to present itself, and that's when he would strike. So the investigator says, so you never had a plan ever, and he says, nope, never. But Gibbs, there's no doubt that Robert Brown was a monster, regardless of what the ultimate number turns out to be. But when you hear some of the cold case investigators talk about Brown, one of them actually said, you know, he's very intelligent, very respectful.

He never cusses. And he's always courteous. That's how we started the podcast out. Right. We use the word courteous. We use the word courteous. And he's provided them with extensive details on a lot of these murders, enough so that they, they believe that he committed whatever the number is. And I get what you're saying. I just have a hard to. time thinking of polite and courteous, but yet a monster. I mean, this guy was truly a monster. Yeah, but I go back to somebody like Bundy. You know, Bundy had a side to him that was, you know, all smiles, fresh face, friendly.

And how did Robert Brown, who was no Bundy, let me tell you, in the area of looks, how was he able to engage all of these women? Now, if it really was consensual. Yeah, this is air quotes again, I guess. Yeah, I am using air quotes. Because he says it is, but we don't know that. Right. That would mean to me that he was either a very smooth talker

or had a manner or a way about him where he was able to disarm women or charm them or whatever it was. Yeah. Or he got a hold of them. They didn't like what he wanted to do. His temper, which we knew was quick to ignite, did. And then he strangled them or stabbed them or whatever after he sexually assaulted them. And then for kicks, he said, oh, let me dismemember you.

Well, and I think that's something that you can never know. Right. So he could be telling the truth about the fact that he killed these women. he could be telling the truth about how he killed him and what he could be doing is lying about the part before it and making himself out to look better than what he really is. He doesn't want to come out and say, I abducted somebody and I sexually assaulted them.

So that whole part could be a lie. I don't know. But that's some of that stuff, you know, I just don't know if there's any way that you could ever know it. No. But that's the case of Robert Charles Brown. Charlie Brown. Yeah, Gibbs likes to call him Charlie Brown.

An unbelievably bad guy. I mean, even Gibbs, if he only committed the two, the guy is a monster. Yeah. But I think the number is so much higher. Oh, I agree. I think it's north of 30. Yeah, I think it's so much higher. But, you know, an unbelievable monster that I really didn't know much about because this is not a guy that

I had heard a lot about. He's not one that I think you hear a lot of people talking about. So I thought it was pretty interesting. So Giz, before we go, we have a couple of voicemails. Let's check those out. Hey, Mike and Givie. This is Matt. I live in New Albany, Ohio, but I'm actually an altar high school grad.

I just want to call in and say I love the podcast. You guys were actually the first podcast I started listening to. Bill Comey from what used to be New Rome, Ohio. That would be a good one for Unsolved, or maybe the Lewington Brothers, the 22 caliber killers for true crime. Love the podcast. I look forward to it because my work week actually starts Sunday night,

so that's kind of the highlight that I get to listen to it at work. Thanks a lot. Keep up all the good work. I love that voicemail, man. Our altar is right down the road. Yeah, New Albany. Just an hour. Hour and a half maybe?

Yeah. Not too far. So we appreciate that. And we'll look into those cases. I don't think I've ever heard of either one. No, no. Definitely put them on the list. Yep.

Sounds interesting. This is Megan from Kentucky. Just wanted to say, I am a huge fan of your own, and I have just binge listened for the past two days at work, probably about 14 hours. So keep up the great work. Look forward to hearing more from you all.

Keep your own time-sicking. Much love from Kentucky. Oh, thank you, Megan, so much. We appreciate that. And anybody that knows me knows how much I love Kentucky. Go Wildcats. I'm kind of thinking Megan's more of a team Gibby person. You think?

I think so. She might be Team Fergie, though, after she finds out how much I love the Wildcats. Yeah, but my family grew up in Kentucky. So did mine. Yeah, but mine grew up on closer to Megan. Anyway, Megan, we appreciate it. 14 hours straight. Yeah, that's great.

That's like having Gibby in your lap. in the car. We're leaving at that. All right, Gibbs. That is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.