True Crime All The Time - Robert Garrow

Episode Date: August 6, 2018

Robert Garrow went on a killing spree in New York in the 1970s after having spent 8 years in prison due to a rape conviction. The police manhunt that ensued was the biggest in New York history up to that point. The details of his capture and eventual escape are fascinating.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the life and crimes of Robert Garrow. His might be one of the most unbelievable childhoods that the show has ever covered. And you won't believe the details of his manipulation in prison that led to his escape.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at www.truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 90 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime Mike Gibson Gibby. How are you? I'm good man. How about you? I'm doing great. There you go. Episode 90. 90. It's so close to breaking that 100. I'll be here in two and a half months. Is that when the new chairs come? Okay. For the 100th episode I will make sure you have a new chair. Finally. So I don't have to sit. and listen to you, complain about it anymore. Not wooden slat.

No, it'll be nice. Okay. I promise you. Probably going to be some kind of kid high chair or something. A kid high chair. You think you could fit in a high chair? No. No, you put it there.

Just make me try. And say, here you go. You want a new chair. This is what you got. All right, Gibbs, we got a lot of new Patreon supporters. I'm still trying to get through our backlog. We had Scott Embler. Hey, Scott.

PR. PR. Just a little bit of public relations for you. Flenty Williams. Flenty Williams. Jennifer Gobber jumped out of our highest level. Hey, Jennifer. Tracy Workman. Hey, Tracy.

Richard. Charles. Hey, Richard. Charles. Hey, Richard. Charles. Maria Fojo. Hey, fojo. It's a huge supporter of the show.

We appreciate that. Virginia Bonds. Hey, Virginia. Concepcion Palacio. Concepcion. Concepcion. Yeah. Lori Hughes.

Hey, Lori. Christy Adcock. Hey, Christy. Lynn Meneas. Meneas? Or Meneas. Meneas. I'm going to go Meneas as well.

John Moore. Hey, John. Joyce Loveless. Oh, hey, Lovelace. Who's probably in the most loving marriage of any of us. Probably. I got a little kind of love just pouring over. Exactly.

Kim Shang. Hey, Kim. Leah Trippanara. Trippanera. I said that because I just knew one of your, not one of your, your only Luigi Impressions was coming. It's a good one. It's a good one.

Pam Miller. Hey, Pam. Liam. Liam Perry. Liam. Signal 7. Yeah, just keep rolling. We don't mess around with Signal 7.

Yeah, we don't want to talk too much about Signal 7. Thank you. We appreciate it. Keep moving. David Paulson. Hey, David. K sharp. K sharp.

I like that. Paul Wilson. Hey, Paul. Deb Greenway jumped out of our highest level. Go back to Paul Wilson. I want of people do that to them all the time. Wilson I doubt it

No There's a lot of people named Wilson Do you think they all get that Wilson I'm sure they probably did when the movie

was out Yeah I think they're tired of hearing it now More than now That's That movie is like Early 2000

Or something Probably at least I would think They're probably like Enough with the Wilson Yeah Megan St.

Louis Hey Megan I would think That's something That would get old real quick Kind of like that Budweiser

Wasah Yeah Yeah Okay Jennifer Demmel DeMal. Kim Weeks. Hey, Kim.

Molly Walker, Molly. Hey, Molly Walker, Molly. I'm not sure if that is Molly's real name or that's just how she entered it. That's just a mouthful right too. It is. Jen Rodriguez. Hey, Jen. Nancy.

Cynthia Widen. Hey, Cynthia. Ravis Hetwer. Ravas. That's a cool name. Ravas. Kevin Conlon. Hey, Kevin.

And F. Hunt. If we go back into the Vol Gibbs. All right. This week, we selected. Jessica Yuan. Yeah. Hey, Jessica. Big support of the show has been for a long time.

She's a good podcaster friend. And we appreciate that. And we appreciate all the new support and the people that support us month after month. We had a lot of PayPal support too. Alana Bush and Samantha S made sizable donations. Hey, Lana, thank you. And Samantha, of course. We love them.

Kaya Elliott. Hey, thank you. Jamie Wynn. Thank you. Gillian Samit. Gillian? Jillian. Okay.

And Stacey Shirel. Thank you, both of you, all of you. Each and every one of you. We appreciate it all. All right. Now, don't forget, at the time that this episode is out, we also have an unsolved episode. We are going to Breckenridge, Colorado. We are.

Going to go skiing. Going to go skiing back in the early 80s. Man, I would have been a young, just a young guy. You're doing a young buck back then. Yeah, back then. I could have ripped up those black diamonds. But we're talking about the unsolved. murders of Barbara Joe Oberholzer and Annette K. Schnee. Yep. And we'll get into it.

It's good. A lot of mystery, the murders, the suspects, all that stuff we like to talk about on unsolved. Rabbit holes. A lot of rabbit holes. Rabbit holes. Now before we get into this case, Gibbs, on True Crime All Time, we have a special birthday shout out. Our friend Jess Huey from down in South Carolina, big fan of the show, has been with. with us literally since the beginning. I think Clemson the world, huh? Yep. Is turning 40.

4.0. So everybody that knows Jess on social media, make sure you hit her up, flood her inbox with nothing but birthday wishes. Yeah, happy birthday. Happy birthday, Jess. We appreciate it. All right. We are talking about Robert Garrow.

Yeah. And this is a case, Gibbs. This is one that I don't think is super well known. which a lot of our listeners like. They like to find some of those that are not talked about all the time. But when, you know, when we started to get into this, you and I were talking about it. How unbelievable some of the facts of this case is. I mean, from, you know, Garrow's childhood, which we're going to get into.

Sure. You and I have done 89 episodes of true crime all time. Yeah. This is number 90. man that blows me away i'm not sure we've ever had a childhood this bad from beginning to end in its yeah in its entirety it's probably one of the worst it's one of the worst or one of the strangest both i like that strange for sure both bad and strange together and then you know as we get down the road there's just a lot of fascinating aspects to this case but robert gero was born march 4th 1936

in the town of Danamoire, New York. And that's upstate New York. New York. His father, Robert Garrow, Sr. It was a farmer. He was a mine worker. But the key is he was known as a very heavy drinker. Really heavy drinker.

The guy was, you know, an alcoholic. And we see that a lot. It's not out of the ordinary. But his mother, Margaret, was known around town as the type of person Gibbs that you didn't. not want to mess with. 5-1, 270 pounds. Margaret had a very quick temper and it was well known, not just within the family. I mean, around town. She could become very hostile very quickly.

She had a hair trigger temper. Those are the worst, man. So when we talk about Robert Garrow's childhood, you know, we're talking about a guy that's born into a family where both parents are extremely cruel. They took their frustrations in life, in their life, out on Robert. Now, he had five siblings, but one of his brothers died in an early age. And his oldest brother, he never knew because the family gave him up for adoption. So Robert's father beat him pretty regularly, especially when he was drinking. The problem is he was always drinking. You know, if he was home, he was drinking. But it might be his mother that was the cruelest of the two.

She routinely beat him with whatever she had, whatever she could find lying around the house. Robert's siblings would later talk about their mother beating him with belts, a crowbar, a rock. That's terrible, man. Yeah, I mean, this is not your mom swat and your fanny. with her hand or a fly swatter or rolled up newspaper. No, I mean, I've been hitting the face with a rock, man. I can't imagine a mom doing that to their kid. On purpose.

On purpose, you know? I mean, yeah. But the worst one out of that batch, you just said, was the crowbar, man. You imagine being hit with a crowbar? Yeah, unfortunately, I don't think it's just his mom that used the crowbar. His dad might have been into the crowbar a little bit, too, we're going to talk about. But his, you know, his sisters especially would recall later that their mother beat Robert so severely on more than one occasion that he fell unconscious. I mean, that is a severe beating.

Yeah, that's rough. And they lived on a farm. So Robert was expected to work extremely hard. And I don't know if that's that out of the ordinary Gibbs for that time frame. I think back then, there's no doubt, kids were expected to pull their weight. Yeah, they had to contribute for sure. I'd like for my daughters to pull their weight, but that would require them putting down their iPhone and not watching makeup videos on YouTube.

Yeah, we'll just take the iPhones right out of their hands, man. Yeah, maybe I'm not as strict as I could be, but I think in general... Get the crowbar out. Kids today got it pretty easy in most families. I'm not saying all. There are some families that are pretty strict and make the kids pull their weight. And I do believe in that. My kids have chores and stuff.

But they're definitely not working the farm. No. Or anything like that. But I grew up with kids that had to work the farm in the morning before they came to school. Yeah, I did too. I had some kids that lived out on farms. They were more rural. Yeah.

And I would wake up in the morning and think about that. and then roll back over. You can go back to sleep for a little bit before I had to get up and get ready. And say, oh man, I feel bad for Fred, but I'm not going out there to help him. He's picking those rocks up right now out of that field. I will say,

bailing hay. Oh, that was, that was, uh, I did that for a while. Did that one summer too. And I knew that that was no way to live life. That is rough. Tore your arms up, didn't it? Yeah, made me break out.

Yeah. It's, that's a rough job. Yeah. But Robert worked hard on his farm. And then as he got older, he was made to work on other people's farms. Farmed him out. Yeah, literally, that's pretty funny. Yeah, he was almost, yeah, he was farmed out.

One report I read said that his mother would take all of the money that he made working on these other farms. He didn't get to keep any of it. Now, Robert was a bedwetter. And we haven't talked about bedwetting in quite a while. That used to come up more in some of our farms. earlier cases. You were a bedwetter, right? Wasn't everybody a bedwetter up until a certain point? No?

Yes. Are you telling me babies don't wet the bed? Kids don't wet the bed? No, you're so full of it. I walked right up to that toilet and did what I needed to do. That one and a half? Yeah. A super baby.

But this goes well beyond what you would think of as normal bedwetting. This would carry on well into adulthood for Robert. But one thing's for sure, Gibbs, Robert Garrow didn't have any friends, male or female. You know, he didn't have buddies to play around with. He didn't go out on dates. He spent most of his time working the farm, feeding the livestock, doing all those type of things that he was required to do. Right. He would find his only companionship with the animals on the farm. farm. So let's take a minute to pause. Because I haven't defined the word companionship yet. I think it's important to define that. I will. I will. But, you know, he, he was very close to the animals,

both on his farm and on some of the other farms at which he worked. But I think as you're alluding to, Robert's going to take this a little, I shouldn't even say a little, way too far. Okay. Stop eating your food now or not yet? Yeah, it wouldn't cause me to spit out a sandwich, but it, you know, it's an animal alert. Yeah. Let's put it that way. He would testify later in court that he started having sex with animals on the farm as early as 10 years old.

That's early. Yeah, there was one quote from his testimony in court that said, of course, I had to fool around with calves, horses, cows, you know. No, I do not know, that of which you speak. I have no idea what this guy's talking about. Yeah, I don't know. I just can't even fathom messing around with horses and cows and calves. Well, and apparently he wasn't all that picky in the animals that he was intimate with.

He readily admitted. He had intercourse with sheep, cows, horses, dogs. It's almost as if nothing was off limits to Robert Garrow. And he carried this on for a number of years. That's gross. Sick. It is very sick.

Now, police were not strangers to the Garrow household. They had been called numerous times over the years to break up fights between Robert and his father. They just couldn't seem to get along. at the age of 15, Robert punched his father in the face, something that I could never imagine doing. Now, I didn't have an alcoholic father who beat me. Yes, that'd be different. And that would maybe change things.

But because of this, Robert was sent to a reform school. And I'm thinking Gibbs that this is when his inappropriate relationships with other species ended. And not by choice, right? He was forced to end it because he got sent off to reform school. Yeah. And he was there for a number of years. But then he got out. He joined the Air Force after being released.

But was court-martialed the very next year for stealing money from a superior officer? That will do it, man. I don't think the armed services are too keen on thievery. No. Got to be loyal, man. No, you do. Garrow was sentenced to six. months in a Florida military prison, but he managed to escape from the military prison only to be

caught a few days later. So he was given another year on top of that to be spent in a Georgia military prison. So if you think about it, he was in the Air Force for a couple of years. Right. But he spent almost all of it, the, you know, the majority of his time in the Air Force in prison. It's probably not the best way to do it. You're not going to be. You're not going to to come out with a very good record. No. Now, after he finished his time, Robert returned to New York in 1957, worked a lot of odd jobs, and was fired from almost every one of them.

You know, one of the jobs he had was at a fast food restaurant that he chose to rob. He thought that would be a good idea to rob the place that he worked at. So I don't know if you met this guy in any of your Mentson meetings, Gibbs, but I'm thinking not. No. But the one thing that happened, you know, after getting back to New York was that he met a woman by the name of Edith and they married and actually even had, you know, some children during this time frame. But it was said that his sexual relationship with Edith was the first that he ever had with a human female. And I have to stress the word human. It's weird that you have to say that it's weird that I have to stress that word it is I give you that but his first real

sexual encounter with a woman happens when he's 24 years old and you'd like to think that Robert would get his shit together at this point in his life right he's he's he's a man he's married he has kids but he doesn't and we know he doesn't he wouldn't be on true crime all the time if he did. He might for a few years, but in 1961, he's arrested for the rape of a teenage girl and an assault on her boyfriend. So he attacked this couple as they were walking the teenage girl's dog near her home. And apparently he pulled a pellet gun on the couple, hit the boyfriend with it in the face

and then sexually assaulted this teenage girl. It's terrible, man. Now, he was arrested, but it came after what was described as a wild police chase, where police apparently fired multiple shots at this guy to get him to stop. But, you know, eventually he did and he got arrested. He was found guilty at trial and handed down a sentence of 10 to 20 years in prison. Which never means that, by the way. Well, no, it never does.

But at least we're not talking about the fact that he got a. slap on the wrist. Could he have done more time? Sure. But, you know, how many cases do you and I do gives where somebody does something very awful? Yeah. And we're talking about the fact that three months later, they're walking the streets. Now, he does eight years in prison. That's no joke. No, that's a stretch. And when he gets out after this eight year prison stint, he is quiet for a while, but it's in 1972 that he's arrested in Syracuse for tying up two female college students against their will. But he doesn't do any time on this one.

He's released after the two women declined to press charges. Early the next year in 1973, he's arrested for sexually assaulting two young girls. And they were young. He was released on bail. and this is when he made the decision to take off. You're going to be a runner. He's going to run.

He's not going to stand and take his medicine for what he did. So when he doesn't show up for his court date, the authorities issue an arrest warrant. And he's a fugitive. Get Sam Shepard involved. Sam Shepard. Yeah. The fugitive. It's a good movie.

And it's just in July of 73 that Robert Garrow would begin. murdering because he's on the run. Yeah, he's going to take it up a level. He's 37 years old at this point. He was at the time a bakery mechanic before he took off. And we know he has a long history of violent sex crimes. And this murder spree that Garrow's going to go on starts in Syracuse, New York, when he abducts a 16-year-old by the name of Alicia Halk from. summer school. So how was reported missing on July 11th after she failed to return home from school.

You know, her father had driven her to school that morning, but she never came home. And this was not like her. You know, her family said, if she told you that she was going to be somewhere, that's exactly where she was going to be. This is the kind of girl that she was. A week into the search for Alicia, her parents wrote into the local paper and the paper published it. And it said, Dear Alicia, wherever you are, please call or send us a card to let us know you are all right. Our home is not the same without you. But Alicia Halk would never come home. Gero would later tell his attorneys after he was captured that he had picked up Alicia Hout, taken her behind an apartment complex, where he raped her.

But at a certain point, she tried to make a run for it. She tried to escape Garrow. But he managed to catch up with her, and he killed her with his knife. And he told his attorneys later on exactly what he did with her body. He told them that he put her body

in the Oakwood Cemetery. And this is one of the strange parts about this case. I mean, obviously we haven't talked about his cap, and we're going to, but at the time that he's telling his attorneys all of this, they are still looking for Alicia. So the attorneys want to make sure that he's telling the truth. They drive to the cemetery and find her body exactly where Gero said it would be. They even took photographs.

But this information would not be released by the attorneys, not to the authorities, and not to the family who, like I said, Gibbs, are still desperately searching for their daughter. The attorneys wrestled with this, but concluded that telling anyone this information would be a violation of the attorney-client privilege. That'd be a very tough thing. It would be. You know, they've got this information about what happened to Alicia. They know a whole town is looking for her.

Her family is worried sick. They don't have any idea what happened to her, but they know. They have the answer and they can't say because her body would not be found until December. So it's quite a long period of time. It's a long stretch for sure. For her family to be wondering what happened to her and a college student found her body in that same wooded cemetery near the Syracuse University campus. They had to make the identification through dental records. but there was also a ring found near her body that the family identified as hers.

Days after murdering Alicia Hout, Garrow encountered 23-year-old Daniel Porter and his girlfriend, 22-year-old Suzanne Petz. And this is in Weavertown, New York. Daniel Porter was from Boston. He had just recently graduated from Harvard University. Pretty prestigious. I would say. Susan Petz was from Skokie, Illinois, and she was attending Boston University.

Oh, there you go. There's nothing to sneeze at either. No. So they had come from the Boston area to New York to go on a camping trip. And at some point, they encountered Robert Garrow. A fight broke out between Porter and Garrow, and Garrow killed Daniel Porter. by stabbing him with his knife. He kidnapped Susan Petz and sexually assaulted her repeatedly over the next four days.

So he held her against her will for four days. Now, what he would later tell his attorneys is that Susan Pets tried to escape on that fourth day and he stabbed her to death. He also told them that he threw her body down a mine shaft. And the reason why I'm jumping forward in time like this is because just like they did with the information regarding Alicia Halk, they went to find the remains of Susan Pets, these two attorneys. And they did find it in a mine shaft exactly as Robert Garrow had described. But again, Gibbs, they felt as though they could not disclose this information to anyone. That's rough.

It is rough. you know. Now, the body of Daniel Porter was found right away. Not long after the murder, it was found near his car. Authorities would determine that he had been stabbed four times. But just 10 days after the discovery of Daniel Porter's body, police would find another body. And it was 18-year-old Philip Domblewski of Schenectady, New York. He was found tied to a tree, less than 50 miles from where Daniel Porter's body had been found, Philip had been camping with three friends. And all three of these friends would survive their encounter with Robert Garrow.

So this allowed them to give police the details of what happened. And it also allowed them to identify Garrow as the man that had killed Philip. So these other three people that survived, they were all from New York as well. Karen Malinowski was a 23-year-old from Amsterdam, New York, 20-year-old Nicholas Fiorillo and 19-year-old David Freeman were both from Schenectady. But all four of these people, including Philip, they were friends. Four friends who decided to go on a camping trip, the three survivors told authorities that while the four were camping in the Adirondack Forest,

a man with a hunting rifle ordered them out of their tents and each of them were tied to trees by their hands. So I'm picturing arms around the tree. Yeah. Hands tied up. Yes. On the other side. But all four were tied up so that they could not see one another. And they said that this man talked about how he had killed before, how he was wanted by the FBI and state police and Garrow himself would later say that Philip Dumbluski was defiant to him. He wouldn't go along with what Garrow wanted him to do. And as Garrow put it, this caused a pressure to build up inside him. And all of a sudden he took out his knife and he attacked Philip while he was still tied to the tree.

And ending this attack, he plunged his knife into Philip's heart. killing him. Now remember, the other three can't see this. They can only hear what's going on. Which would be terrible, man, too. Terrifying as well. Karen Malinowski would say to authorities that she heard Phillips final gasps and she yelled out to this man, you know, asking him what he was doing. Because she can't see. She just knows something really bad is going on. And the man, answered her, it's okay. I'll be done in a minute. This is what Karen says that the man told her in reply. But as this was going on, as Gero was attacking Philip, Nicholas and David were able to free themselves and escape. Karen also freed herself. By this time, Gero was gone into the woods.

And it was at this point, Gibbs, that she finally saw her friend Philip dead. His head was slumped down against his chest. Blood was everywhere. This is how she described it. Just a horrible scene to see a friend in that way. So Karen runs through the forest, finally gets to a road, and is eventually picked up by authorities. And later, the three survivors would pick Robert Garrow, out from pictures shown to them by police and identify him as the man that had tied them up

and killed their friend Philip Dumbuski. And authorities are looking at the similarities between the murder of Philip Domblowski and the murder of Daniel Porter. And they felt that they had to have been committed by the same person, which they now believed to be Robert Garrow, based on the identification of the three survivors. So it's on July 29th, 1973, that a massive manhunt began for Robert Garrow. That's about a month old, Yves, at that point. Just a little month old. Just a month old baby. So police know what Garrow looks like.

But finding him is not going to be a walk in the park. You know, they've got pictures of him, but they also have a description that included the fact that he had a heart shaped tattoo on his left arm with the words mom and dad on it. Does that seem strange to you given what we've talked about? I think so. As far as his childhood? Is that an ironic tattoo? Could be.

Or did he really love his mom and dad, regardless of everything that he went through? I don't know the answer to that. I just thought it was strange. Now, one fact that has to be talked about Gibbs is Robert was an outdoorsman. He had been in the military, not for very long. Well, that's probably where he got his tattoo. Probably felt like he needed to keep up with the rest of the guys and get some type of tattoo. Well, that might have been the place where he got it.

It still doesn't answer to me the fact of why he would put mom and dad in it. Maybe he was trying to be normal. Maybe. You could be dead on. Maybe he was trying to fit in because he hadn't been able to fit in very much in his life. No, it's definitely messed up. As we know, growing up, he didn't do a lot of things that the other kids were probably doing. No, nobody I knew did anything.

I was getting ready to say, none of my friends were doing some of the things that Robert Garrow did. But he had over the years developed some really good survival skills. He had that type of knowledge. And he had enough of it to hide out and survive in the Adirondack Mountain. So in addition to his service. survival skills, he also found some hunting camps around the area. And he was able to steal from them food, clothing, supplies. The guy knew how to fish without a fishing pole. He knew what types of berries and mushrooms that he could eat, which were poisonous and which weren't. Yeah, it's critical.

It is critical if you're going to eat berries and mushrooms. Yeah, you got to know. You better. You better know which ones you can and cannot eat. And apparently he would even eat snakes if he had to. Taste like chicken. I don't know. I don't think I've ever had snake. But this would turn out to be the largest manhunt in New York State history up to that point in time. New York City.

You know how many emails I've gotten this week about the fact that that, yes, that is a pace pecanty. Yeah. A lot. advertisement and nobody else can figure out what the hell you're talking about. I guess you got a lot. Yeah, I got a lot. Then my plan worked. Your plan to flood my inbox worked.

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But it was, it was the largest manhunt in the history of New York. And that's saying something, because there's a lot of stuff that's gone down in New York prior to 1973. Yeah, that's huge. On the very first night of the manhunt, authorities find a car that was abandoned by Robert Garrow. And inside the car, they found hair believed to be similar to that of Susan Pets. But they set up roadblocks. They had, you know, state troopers walking around carrying shotguns, rifles. They had helicopters, Gibbs flying around the area, broadcasting a message from Garrow's wife and son,

essentially pleading for him to give himself up. And on this taped message, his wife Edith says, honey, this is Edith. won't you please come out. Leave your rifle in the woods. I am here with the state police. They do not want to hurt you and don't want you to hurt anyone else. The children and I want you to come out.

Please listen to me and do what I ask. Now the last two lines of that I've heard many times from my own wife. Oh, I hear it when I'm over here. She's telling you all the time. Please listen to me. Yeah. And do what I ask.

Sometimes I think she's talking to me as well. Sometimes she is. Oh, okay. I kind of thought so, but I wasn't really sure. So I just do what I do at home. Which is nothing? Ignore it. Ignore, yeah.

Now, the first part I've never heard. I'm here with the state police. They don't want to hurt you, but they don't want you to hurt anyone else. Yeah, I've heard that before. So, yeah. So together, we have the whole sentence. If we put them both together. Yeah.

The problem is this is not something that Robert Garrow is going to do. Right. He's not just going to hear something from his wife or something from his son and say, yep, I should do what she wants me to do and throw down my gun and find the nearest, you know, state trooper and give myself up. He's just not going to do it. And he continued to evade capture day after day. This thing's going to go on for about 12 days.

And you can imagine the fear that this put into citizens, you know, throughout that area. You got to kill her on the loose. Gun sales went through the roof. People were buying dead bolts, making sure their homes were locked up tight. I'm assuming people were sitting in their chairs at night with guns pointed at the door. But the other thing that it did was the fear in the community caused a lot of reports of false sightings, including several people that resembled Robert Garrow being turned into police. But we got to talk about the Adirondack Mountains.

Yeah. I mean, this is not, you know, a little small town that you're searching for this guy in. No, not at all, man. This is a massive place. You know, people always talk about, you know, places like Yosemite or something like that. Adirondack is way bigger than Yosemite National Forest, way bigger. Now, they did concentrate most of their searches in 135 square mile area, but the guy could have been anywhere. Not to mention the fact that it's a dense forest in most places.

There were several times during the search that Garrow narrowly escaped capture. At one point, two troopers spotted him at the edge of the woods. They were only about 50 yards away from him. But they couldn't catch him. The minute they started to go after him, he darted into the woods and escaped. And it really wasn't until August 5th that police started to get a bead on. where he was. There had been several confirmed sightings. August 6th, it was confirmed that he was seen at a gas station. And then on August 7th, authorities confirmed that Robert Garrow had visited

his sister's house, even though they knew where his sister lived. Right. And they were thinking that he might go visit her. Somehow he was able to slip in, but they decided to do a pretty, you know, do a massive stakeout at the house. And what they saw was Robert Garrow's nephew, his sister's son, coming and going from the house. This happened over, you know, a few days. It was on August 9th that they followed him

to the secluded hiding place of Robert Garrow. So I don't know, Gibbs, if he was probably taking him food or he was probably taking him something. I don't know that to be true. But so police, they finally find him. They order Garrow to surrender. But he doesn't comply with any of the commands coming from the officers.

And then he tries to make a run for it. He's going to run again. There he goes. He is a runner. Yeah. We know that. When he thinks he's cornered, he will take off. But when he does, it's actually a conservation officer that pulls his gun and

fires three shots at Giro, hit him all three times, which is a good thing. Hit him in the back, hit him in the foot and the arm. Now that seems like strange shot placement to me. I was saying it's a little bizarre. Yeah.

You know? So I don't know if he, you know, the guy was running probably. But still, foot, back and arm. Maybe this guy wasn't the greatest shot, but he did put all three shots on the target. Moving target. But the main thing is that the wounds were enough

to allow, police to arrest him. So the guy did his job. Now we get to his trial. Now would start the next year in 1974. Gero entered a plea of insanity. And he got on the stand. He testified about his childhood, about how he was forced to work from three in the morning to 11 at night, seven days a week. I'm doing the math, Gibbs. That's four hours if you went to bed at 11 and didn't get up till three. That's four hours of sleep. Yeah. He talked about the abuse he suffered at the hands of both of his parents on the stand recounted a story where his father had attacked him with a crowbar one time when he was drunk. So we talked about his mom hitting him with a crowbar, but I said I thought his

dad did too. And Garrow would tell the story about his dad doing it as well. He even told the jury about his sexual activities with animals. So again, that's not something, obviously I would never do that, but I sure as heck wouldn't want to get up in a bunch of a bunch of people and make that well known. No. But he's confessing because he wants them to find him insane. Yeah, I mean, it goes towards his case for sure.

Yeah. But he didn't just talk about his sexual activity with animals. He even told the jury about his sexual history with other inmates while he was in prison. Very graphic stuff. But more importantly, on the witness stand, he confessed to four murders and seven rapes. Some of the rapes, Gibbs, I don't even think police had connected him to at the time. He told the jury how he would walk the streets of Syracuse looking for targets. in that he used a cap gun to force his targets into the bushes where he would rape them.

Now, that's back when cap guns look like real guns. Right. Can't buy those type of cap guns today, right? They all have like an orange. Yeah, they all have that little. They have something on the end of them. Yeah. Which is a good thing because there were kids getting shot.

But a lot of people take those and paint him black anyway. They do. So. But the jury didn't buy his insanity plea. And they convicted him of. of murder on July 27th, 1974, he was sentenced to 25 years to life in prison. And normally Gibbs, this is where we would be kind of winding down. We would be talking about either him dying in prison or the aftermath or whatever.

We would. But there's a strange twist to the Robert Garrow story. We know he was wounded during his capture in the Adirondacks. But Garrow claimed that his injuries were so severe that he was required to use a wheelchair. He even tried to convince people that he was paralyzed from the waist down, even though the doctor said that he wasn't. And on top of that, he tried to sue anyone and everyone that was involved in his case from prison. He sued the state for $10 million.

Okay. For, I mean, just about anything he could think of. You know, they didn't provide adequate care for him. They didn't have the correct type of wheelchair access. He was forced to use a manual wheelchair. He didn't have a fancy electric one. He just was trying to sue them for whatever. Anything, everything threw it all on the wall, hope something to stick.

Exactly. Stuck, yeah. He sued the state police accusing them of torturing him while he was in the ambulance. He sued his own lawyers for inadequate. defense and he sued the doctors that had treated him in the hospital after he was shot. It's a lot of lawsuits. But what else you got to do, Gibbs, if you're doing 25 years to life? You got plenty of time to look that stuff up and help your attorney or do yourself. You got to spend your time doing something. Now, during the day in prison, Garrow acted the part

of a person who had a disability. You know, he was too weak to do much of anything on his own. He needed help. But at night, he transformed into a different person, much like you do. Yes. You have day gibby and night gibby. And I got Rex West. And you got Rex West. That's right.

And sometimes Mike Concho. And Mike Contour. I mean, at night when nobody could see him, Gibbs, he was working out. He was building up his muscles. But everything he did was working towards one goal, breaking out of prison. Escape land. This is where the hit classic movie escape plan comes in. Yes.

And I wanted to tell you, I don't know if you've seen it, but I saw where there's an escape plan too. Is there? With Sylvester Stallone. Really? Is Arnold coming back too? I don't know. We just know Sylvester's in it. I just saw it somewhere. I don't know if it's coming out to movies or probably direct to Netflix because it's a piece of shes-knit.

It might. It might. I don't know. I saw it somewhere, though. Yeah. It was a good movie, man. I'm going to watch it. Escape land.

Actually, I've seen it. I haven't told you that. I watched it years ago. Did you? Yeah. That's how I knew it was crap. Come on, mate. It's Sylvester.

No, it's really not that bad. I just want to bust your chops about it. It takes a special, you know, person to be able to break out of a prison on open water. Well, it takes a special kind of person to break out of prison if you're paralyzed, too, from the waist down. Well, that's true, too. That seems like it would add a... Another level of skill. Another level of skill, a great skill.

degree of difficulty. A lot of upper body strength. But also, if people think you really are paralyzed from the waist down, maybe they don't look at you. They don't. They don't relax. Yeah, they don't scrutinize you the same that they would somebody that they think, oh, this guy could overpower me or this guy could easily do this or that.

Yeah. So when the people hand out books, you know, they give you the really thick, big ones. And I get the little picture books. but we know I can handle the big thick ones, books, but I get the picture books. And that's part of your master plan? Yeah, absolutely, man. Okay. Yeah.

Because you want people to think you need the picture books? No, that's so wrong, didn't it? Yeah, I'm not making, I'm not sure where you're going. It's not making you look good in any way. It's the other way around. You get the picture books. Exactly. Yeah, I get the.

I let you go with it, though. I get the three-volume masterpieces. Yeah. Three-volume masterpieces. Masterpieces. Yeah, here's volume one, volume two. I knew what you were doing, but I let you go with it anyway. He did.

Just let me make me look better than you. So not only were you letting me shovel the dirt back on top of me. Exactly. You were kicking it too. Yes. I only stop you when it goes against my favor. That's when you say, okay. That's my plan.

I'll stop it now. All right, good to know. But the other thing we have to talk about Gibbs is what Robert Garrow was imprisoned for. Yeah, let's do that. He was a child rapist. Yeah, sick. On top of being a murderer, which from my understanding, you can be in prison. You can be a murderer.

What is very tough is to be a child rapist. Yeah, it's tough to get through. It's tough to stay alive and survive in any prison system being known as that. When Robert Garrow knew this firsthand, he'd already experienced it. He experienced what it was like to wear this label. in his previous prison stint. So he knew exactly how people like him were treated by the general population. And he kind of talked about at trial.

You know, when he talked about having sex with inmates, I don't believe all of that was consensual. Now, in 1978, state officials offered Robert Garrow a deal. They would transfer him to fish, kill prison in Poughkeepsie, New York, which was a medium security prison if he would drop all of these different lawsuits that he had filed against the state. And he agreed to this deal. Yeah. But what officials didn't know is that this is what he'd been angling for all along. They played right into it. He didn't care about the lawsuits. What he cared about was getting out of

the maximum security prison into a medium security prison. Because it's just in September of 78 that his 18-year-old son, Robert Garrow Jr., comes for a visit to fish kill. But he smuggles in a pistol inside a bucket of KFC chicken. Okay. There's that KFC again. KFC. KFC coming up.

And again. I haven't been to a lot of prisons, but at what type of prison are you allowed to bring a prisoner an eight piece? Yeah, I don't know, man. That kind of shocked me. Let me bring my bucket of chicken in. Now, he had been to visit his father a number of times since he got to fish kill. And the guards knew him.

But on this day, he handed the box of chicken to a guard. He walked through the metal detector. And then on the other side, the guard, handed him back the chicken with the gun in it. It's kind of ingenious if you think about it. Yeah. I don't think it happened today, but... No. Again, I swear, I don't think you're allowed to bring a whole lot to prisoners. Well, I think whatever you do bring, they scan and they look at it now and they just don't let you pass it through. Like, hey, hold this for me. Here, Bob, hold this for me, will you? Let me

let me walk through this and... And then you hand it to me around the other side. I always thought, like on TV, you go into a room, you've already taken off your belt and anything. And all you have is maybe some change to get something out of the vending machine. Yeah. But I don't know. I don't spend a lot of time in prisons. Yeah, you don't. I try not to.

I try to make that a rule, Gibbs. That's a good rule to have. I think the more you avoid it, the better off you are. But you can see this plan taking shape. So, you know, Robert Garrow Sr. retrieves the gun from underneath the chicken, I guess. He hides it and takes it back to his cell. At least the gun's like probably got jam because it's probably got that chicken.

It's got a lot of grease on it. Nice and oiled up. Yeah, oiled up, sliding good. But then it's just like you see in the movies. He makes up his bed to look like someone is sleeping in it. Yeah. Him, I guess, not someone. Like he's asleep in his bed.

And he escaped. And he did this by. Prying some steel bars using a table leg. So he got out of his cell and then he eventually climbed over the prison fence. But he wasn't out of prison long and he really didn't get very far away. They never really do. Because just three days later, he's seen running through the woods near the prison. So in three days, he really hasn't gone very far at all.

Don't anybody ever watch Cool Hand Luke? Nobody watches as much as you do because you talk about it on every freaking episode. It's the best movie ever, man. Eating them eggs, digging them holes. Shaking the bush, box. Wait. Shaking the bush, boss. What do I say?

I think you said shaking the bush box. Yeah, I meant. Shaking the bush, boss. Shaking the bush, boss. That's all he does, man. You crack me out. Yeah, it's good stuff. So Garrow's escaped, but he's seen by a guard and he's confronted.

But when he's confronted, he opens fire on this guard. Because remember, he's got a gun that he got from his son. And in this shootout, he wounds the prison guard. But Garrow's not going to get away this time because police opened fire on him and he's killed. Now, when they do the autopsy, it stated that his body had 39 bullets in it. That is a lot of. of shots, because you're assuming some missed, right? Right.

So 39 of them hit and stuck inside his body. It was said that he wasn't even recognizable after the number of shots that police managed to hit him with. The other thing that said was some of the shots were said to have come after he was already dead lying on the ground almost as if the police stood over him and continued firing. So that's the end of the Robert Garrow saga, right? There is no he dies 20 years later in jail or anything like that. Now, there's a lot of people that were affected by what happened. I mean, you have to look at this as a huge blunder.

You know, the fact that Garrow had been transferred to a lower security prison, right. Which ultimately allowed him to escape. Yeah, I mean, he played the system. He did. Now, he didn't win, but he got close. Yeah. Now, I said he wasn't part of Mensa, but he fooled him.

He did fool him. So the head of the State Department of Corrections resigned over this. Some employees of the Fishkill Prison were fired. This thing even affected the governor of New York at the time because challengers made this blunder a huge political issue. Sure. Which they would. They're looking for anything. Yeah, any angle you can get.

Now, we talked Gibbs a lot up front about how Garrow had confided to his attorneys where two of his victims' bodies were located, right? They went, they found the bodies well in advance of them being discovered by somebody else. They photographed the bodies, but they never told anybody about it, believing that they couldn't for fear of violating the attorney-client privilege. But they got charged after, you know, this came out. They were charged with a crime, but a jury later found them not guilty. So as we're wrapping up, there's one more murder that I want to talk about. It's actually up in Canada, and it's an unsolved murder.

And it's the 1973 murder of Adele Komorowski. She was 26 years old when she was found strangled and partially nude in a ravine behind a university. And there's an author, Jim Tracy, who has written a lot. lot about Robert Garrow. And Tracy believes that Garrow had a hand or was responsible for the murder of Adele. And one of the pieces of evidence that Jim Tracy talks about is this, what he refers to as a murder map that was supposedly found in Garrow's car. And this map had 27 red dots on it. one of these dots Tracy says was in the exact spot where Adele Komorowski's body was found. So if that's true, and I don't know if it is or not, I just know this is what he has said.

But if that's true, it's very interesting. Now, the police up there, they've not been real quick to agree with his theory. And I think one of the reasons why Gibbs is they point to the fact that Robert Garrow, admitted to his crimes. He admitted to a lot of things. He did, yeah. A lot of things that you wouldn't want anybody to ever know. So why in the world would he not have admitted to this one as well?

But I don't know. I don't know. Maybe later this year, next year, it'll come out in this big press release that they've solved the murder of Adele Komorowski. Some magical DNA has found that it was. Robert Garrow. We've seen stranger things, right? Well, this year for sure. What are we saying? We're not calling anything unsolvable. We're not saying anything is impossible. But that's it. That's the case of Robert Garrow. It is. Yeah. Strange one for sure. No, it's very strange for a lot of

reasons. I mean, he murdered four people. Let's not forget about that. But there's a lot of murderers that we can talk about and that we will talk about, that we have talked about. That we have talked about. that we will talk about. I found this individual's background fascinating, you know, from the abuse to really strange sexual behavior with a whole bunch of different species of animals to the escape,

the fact that, you know, his son was said to have been involved. Just a lot of things that make this one fascinating to me. We've got some voicemails, Gibbs. Let's hear them. I'm going to go over those. Hi, I just finished listening to Richard Ramirez's excellence, of course, podcast as usual. Gibby's serial killer name is the K-bar killer.

It's so obvious because that's the weapon of choice. That's the M.O. That's the name. Come on, you guys. I love the Easter eggs. I love the bonus footage during the credits. Keep up the good work. And I'm keeping my own time ticking.

All right. Great voicemail. Now she's going back away. Catching up. She's on Richard Ramirez. Oh, that's while back. Yeah. It is a while back.

But I do remember us talking about, you know, what our serial killer names would be. And I don't, I think she's right. I don't think there's any doubt. Yours would be the Kbar killer. Kbar killer. I hope we never get to that point, but. Well. Or it never comes out.

I'll say just not let it come out. Let's just not let it come out that it's that to that point. But we appreciate the voicemail. Hey, guys. It's Rochelle calling from Perth, Western Australia. I'm a tad late to the whole true crime bandwagon, but your podcast has me obsessed. Thank you for doing the burning episode,

and can I say, well done with the pronunciation. You guys would sit roared in down under. Not going to lie, had a bit terrifying hearing the horrors of the street I frequent. It was a lot easy to sleep when the true crime was an ocean away.

But honestly, I love the band here you guys have. Keep up that awesome work, and we hope to see you in Australia soon. But make sure you come to Perth. Thanks, bye. All right, Gibbs. We're going to Perth. Yes, we are.

And then we're going to Melbourne. good die good die that's all I'm going to say the whole time good die somebody's just gonna punch you

right in the face hey why don't you good day this don't you put this put this on your Barbie I got that little book someone said me you do

oy good die oi good die I can tell you haven't been reading it the whole point of the book was so that you would have some more sayings

Ozy sayings to use with your accent keep up the good word all right We love the voicemail. We love the suggestions. Yeah.

We got a whole book of suggestions. Yep. We write each and everyone down. We love it. Hey, Mikey Mike and Gibby Gibbresson. My name's Duffy Lawhorn. I'm calling from East Texas. I just wanted to call y'all and tell y'all that I love you.

I'm a licensed massage therapist. So while I'm in session, I listen to you all my headphones, and I've been the entire T-Cat. and it's so awesome to see from episode one to current how y'all have changed. And now I'm starting on the Unsolved, and I'm on Rhonda Castro right now. And there's some red flag with that boyfriend, I tell you. But y'all need to have a meet up in Dallas so I can come in. But y'all got to have to leave the access trash at home because I'll know if I can control myself with that one. I'm just kidding.

That's probably inappropriate. But anyway, just call and tell you, I love y'all, and stay. state and keep her own time. All right. Love that voicemail. I actually love Dallas. I'm a big fan of Dallas. Dallas the show?

No, Dallas the place. It's because you like wearing that 10-gallon hat and those good old cowboy boots of yours. I do like that, but I wear those in Ohio. I just like Dallas or something about Dallas. You play the theme song with Dallas in your car when you, your ringtones. That's the theme song to Dallas. I've had some of the best food. In Dallas?

How many times you've been to Dallas? Probably two or three times. Not a lot, but... Just because the steak was huge or what? No, actually, one time I had like Chilean sea bass, but I had this mushroom risotto. It was the best I've ever had. I don't remember the name of the restaurant.

It's like... But also, I remember I went to know... Stan's risotto? It wasn't called Stan's risotto. I went to No boo. That was a good place. No boo? I think that's what it was called.

No boo? No boo. No, you can keep saying it different ways. I don't know. I was just trying for it. I was like, you can't have like, it's like back when people used to call their significant other boo. You'd be like, no boo.

No boo. I think that's what it was called. I can't remember. It was like a, almost like a Japanese restaurant, but it was family style. The problem is I didn't know it was family style. So the things that they were bringing out, I wasn't eating a lot of because I thought they were appetizers. And then all of a sudden,

were done. Oh. So I actually had to get something somewhere else. I got you. I was with a big group of people from work. Oh, okay. And I didn't want to fill up on appetizers and ruin my dinner. Yeah. And then all of a sudden they said, okay, we're done. And you're like, where's the dinner? I was like, somebody better get me a burger or something. I would have filled up more if I knew there's no dinner coming. But it was actually really good. I just didn't eat a lot because I was waiting for the big entree. Yeah. Oh, and by the way, I don't let Gibby take the chaps on the road. There's a reason why. There's a reason for that.

Any more. I should say any more. Hi, Mike and Jimmy. This is Nikki calling from the 6-124 in Columbus, Ohio. I called back. I was spring, I believe, and got to hear my message on the air, which was pretty cool. But I'm just calling. I just finished your episode on Wesley's God.

Yeah. And wow. I need a hot shower and maybe a brain scrubber to ever get over the stuff I heard of that. episode. No offense to you guys. It's very informative and a very disturbing, like, won't get that part of my brain back because it's like horrible. But it's like three in the morning here in Ohio. And I'm up way too late listening to you guys and trying to get stuff done around my house and for work. And I literally went up and I have a six-year-old son after listening to this episode and woke him off to hug him and pretty much just his relish in the fact that he's here and safe. So not only are you guys informative. Informative. Oh, I did they be there. Informative, put it again.

Anyway, you guys, full of information. It's also a public service announcement to house your kids more. I just wanted to tell you guys, thank you. I think you're awesome. And go bucks. Keep your own time kicking. Go bucks. Go bucks.

I actually laughed out loud as the clip was playing. I don't know if you could hear it. I know, you heard it. I heard it. Because you're sitting right next to me. I heard it. I don't know if anybody else will hear it. But when she said, oh, I actually did a Gibby, I laughed out loud.

Cracked me. Wasn't that funny. But so the Wesley, Allen Dodd was tough because of the subject matter. So there's a couple of things we try to do, Gibbs, right? Help people to be more aware of their surroundings. Keep your head on a swivel. We say that all the time. Now it's also make sure you hug your kids.

Yeah. Got to. After those stories, man. You got to. You got to remember what's important. All right, Gibbs. Let's talk about what's in the mail. What's in the mail?

What's in the box? What's in the box, man. So Natalie Moore from Oklahoma. Oklahoma. Oklahoma. She sent in some Harley chips. Oh, really? Some beef jerky.

We are getting a lot of beef jerky, and we're really digging that. You are. You're loving it, man. What are you talking about? You love beef jerky. We sit here and we eat it together. I just didn't want it to be about me. She sent in some Route 66 socks.

Route 66. Sixth. There's a lot of six of six sounds in that one. Yeah. Also sending some soap. Is that for you or me? I don't know. Someone saying I need to clean up?

Hopefully, it was just one bar. Hopefully she doesn't think we're going to share that. No, we, just that one time at CrimeCon to each hour. That has to go to one house or the other. That cannot be shared. And then Mahan Lance sent us some unbelievable beef jerky from Indiana. And in the note, it was said that this is the best beef. turkey. And it is some of the best beef jerky I've ever had. I do have to be honest. You really loved

it, man. So the key is we love beef turkey. Beef turkey or turkey turkey turkey. I don't like turkey turkey turkey. No, just beef turkey? I don't like turkey. I don't like turkey. I like turkey sandwich. Do you? If I want turkey, I'll eat turkey. So just stick to the beef turkey. Yes. Gotcha. Don't send me some type of meat that is made out of turkey. Gotcha. I just want regular turkey or I want beef. Then Barrett Kristen Nilsson, I think because you thought she was like three different people, or at least two different people. Right. Sent some stuff all the way from Norway. And she sent us some really cool paracord bracelets.

Yeah. Very cool. Just in case you ever need to have a bunch of paracord to survive. Exactly. Yep. Sent me a Harley Chip, which was awesome. And sent us some key chains. So a lot of really cool stuff.

Yeah. We did really well. And we appreciate that. I appreciate it. Why do you say it like that? Because it makes it sound like I don't. Do you do not? I do.

I just said I did. And then you're like, well, I appreciate it. I just get mine out there too. No, you're making it sound like I do. Fergie doesn't. I'm the one sitting on a wooden slotted chair. I'm cutting you off right now. All right.

That is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking. All right, Gibbs. That was awesome, man. We got through another one. I really liked that story. Yeah, it was good. I mean, I shouldn't say it that way. I don't really like it. But you know what I mean? No, it was a good episode. Yeah, I thought it was. My ass is hurting, man. What is up? You in that freaking chair. Well, it's, uh, woodslat. It is not. And then you make me wear the freaking chaps, which is really weird, dude. I'm just saying, I come over. The chaps with the wets. With the wets. With the wets. wooden slats don't go together. Is that what you're saying? No, it's just really weird, man.

I know you do that for the podcast. But, you know, I wonder how many people really think, like, oh, Fergie's sitting there in the Game of Thrones chair, and he makes Gibby sit on like a little kid's step stool. It's, it's bad, man. It's not true. We have the same. We don't have the same. Damn chairs.

Why do you keep saying? Why do you want people to think we have the same? because we do have the same. We don't have the same chair. I bought them. Yours is black leather. Mine is black fabric. Yours is black fabric.

Mine is wooden. They're both cheap as shit. I paid $49. Teak till? No, uh, teak wood. I'm sitting in a teak wood chair, man. I paid $49 at Sam's for each of them. I think you got this one on the curb around your neighborhood.

And your wife tried to do her little decorating thing. saying in it, but she didn't say in it good because I think I get a splinter over now and in my ass cheek. I just, I just forbreezed yours. I picked it up down the street. A little Clorox wiped it down a little bit. Actually, I went to the dump, and I just waded in and found the smelliest chair could find it. But I've forbrized it. Yeah. Well, it needs for breached again. Oh, I'm sure it does now. After all the pizza you've been eating. Oh, now, well, you've got to go there, man. It just, it cracks me up because you talk about it every episode, and you know, For a fact, we have been sitting in the same chair.

They're horrible chairs. Don't get me wrong. Yeah. We need new chairs. We do. I need one that has padded. But we are sitting. Fabric.

I go with just fabric, man. Just drape something over it. I feel like people are picturing you literally sitting almost on the floor, like a little kid. While I'm up on high wearing my crown made of rubies and... Well, you do sit higher in me. You build a freaking box that your chair sits on top. It's because I'm taller than you. No.

You actually, you have an 8-1 in heels. You have an 8-inch box platform that your chair sits on top of. So you are automatically 8 inches taller than me. You're so nice. Looking down. And then you have these humongous monitors, right? Yeah. So it makes everything look really big.

You got the bigger microphone. You got the spit guard. We have the same microphone. The exact same microphone. You got the better microphone cover. We have the same cover. Yeah, I got to clip mine onto my chest. You've got this swing arm thing.

that comes in front of your face. It wouldn't matter even if we didn't have the same. You only say like five words an episode. So what would be the difference? I could hand you a Mr. microphone from the 1980s and we could get through this thing. Well, that'd be kind of fun, wouldn't it?

Yeah, it kind of would be. Hey. We'll have it come through the speaker into my microphone. Look how you changed it all around. Actually, we just need one microphone. Let's just go get it. Let's go get one right now.

Oh, shit, Gibbs. I forgot to hit the button. I'll hit the button, buddy. All right.