True Crime All The Time - Robert Hansen

Episode Date: May 28, 2018

Robert Hansen was a special kind of evil. He was a family man, with a wife and kids, who led a sadistic double life. He was a business owner in Anchorage Alaska and was viewed as a respected member of the community. But he was also a serial rapist and murderer, killing at least 17 and raping more than 30 women. He selected the majority of his female victims from 4th avenue in Anchorage, a place where topless bars were numerous and sex workers were out on the street.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the details of the Alaskan serial killer Robert Hansen. How could this man pull off the double life for 10 years? Part of that answer lies with the victims that Hansen selected, individuals that he felt would not be missed. Part of it has to do with the geography of Alaska and the remote hunting areas where Hansen would take his victims. But as the details of his crimes emerged, it was discovered that Robert Hansen was living out the most dangerous game. He was setting women free in a remote area so that he could hunt them down like animals.You can help support the show by going to patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationSponsors:Visit simplisafe.com/tcatt to learn more about their amazing home security system deals!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 80 of the true crime all the time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson, Gibby, what is going on? What's happening, man? Can you believe we're on episode 80? 80? 80. 80, man, 80. Wow, that's a lot. Add that up with true crime all the time unsolved. That means we've done 150 episodes. You say so. That's a lot, man. I do say so. And I can do that math in my head. Can you? Yep. Yeah, well, I got a piece of paper out, and I did it too. Get your abacus out. My abacus.

Slide rule. Yeah. All right, Gibbs, we've got a lot of new supporters. Okay. We're still playing catch-up from CrimeCon. Yeah, we are. And I can only put so many in an episode, but we had Danielle Hill. Hey, Daniel.

Lena Lulu Glew Gleason. Lulu? Lulu. Hey, Lulu. Jumped out above our highest level. She went outside the box. They're like the leggings. Lulu leggings.

Lulu lemon. Lulu lemon. Okay. I know what it is. I don't know. I got three, I got a wife and two girls. I know what Lulu Lemon is for sure. All right.

I don't know. I don't. We had Wanda Linnell Richland. Hey. Abigail Canyons. What's up, Abigail? Van Zant, 1994. That's important.

Remember that's a good year. Remember. Kara Evans. Hey, there's our buddy Kara. Who we hung out with CrimeCon. We got to know Kara. Really, really like her. Yep.

I had a good time. Tay Marie. Hey, Tay. Lucas Ryan. So there's our Colorado buddy. Naomi James. Yeah. Tyler Bowhouse.

Hey. Tyler. Shep Fargo Stein. The old Shep. Old Shep sent me a Harley Token from Memphis, Tennessee. Oh, yeah. Yep. Cool. Whoa.

Whoa. Yeah, and he's also a big criminology supporter. I think he left his voicemail, too. Oh, cool. Shep might be getting some run this episode. Yeah, yeah. They had Samuel Wright. Hey, Samuel.

Melissa Swigart. Oh, yeah, Melissa. Yep. She jumped out at our highest level. New she would. As did Mary Petrowski. Thanks, Mary. Froggy bars back in the mix.

What's up, Froggy. Leney trustee. Hey. Big criminology supporter as well. Russ Morgan. Russ. Jen Medeiros. Oh, yeah.

We love Jen. She's been a patron supporter. She jumped up to our highest level. Thanks, Jen. So much appreciated. Amanda Wilkes. Hey, Minda. Colleen Omen.

Omen. Sherry jumped out at our highest level. Oh, Sherry. Hey, thanks, Sherry. Just Sherry. That's all we need. Alistair Salas. Yeah.

Jen. Jen. Just Jen. That one gin. That one gin. It's that, Jen. Oh, that one. Thanks.

Hannah Cooper. Yeah. Sevee Ba. Sevee Ba. Mary Beth Long, who just got married. Congratulations. Congratulations on that. Jumped out at our highest level.

Yeah, why didn't we get the invites to the wedding? I know. I was bummed. Yeah, okay. And we go back into the Volk, Gibbs. I would have showed up. You would have showed up. This week we selected Scott Erder.

Scott. Been with us a long time, long time supporter. Much appreciated. So we appreciate it. So we appreciate all of our Patreon support. And we have a lot of PayPal support as well. Oh, we have some paypowers? PayPalers.

Jennifer Murray. Hey, oh, hey, Jennifer. Jennifer Wormuth. Oh, another Jennifer. Peak animal wellness. Well, you know, that's important. It is important. And I'm hoping that there's just a whole bunch of people at this animal medical center

listening to the podcast while they're helping out these animals. That makes me feel good. Give all the love you can to the animals. Exactly. Chad Kanya. Hey, Chad. Rebecca Resnick. Hey, Rebecca.

Samantha. Our friend, Samantha. Got to love me some Samantha. And then John Garner. And John. So a lot of new support. We really, really appreciate it. Yeah.

Don't forget, check out True Crime All Time Unsolved. Right now, there's an episode out on George Steny. In this case, it's fascinating. It is fascinating. I mean, we are talking about a 14-year-old. year old kid who's convicted of murder. Yeah. And not only that, pays the ultimate price, and then they later find out he didn't do it. I know. It's good stuff. It's a sad story. So definitely check that out. It's going to be a very interesting story. It's going to be one of those

where you're going to be saying, how in the world could they do some of these things? Yeah, I mean, it's terrible things happen. And, you know, you look back and you think, well, in the world, but, you know, it's high in sight. I mean, it's terrible. And all you can do is study it and learn from it. I hope not to make that same mistake again. Absolutely not. All right.

So you're feeling a little bit better, but not as good as you thought you were going to be post-surgery. No, no, I'm pretty rough, man. I think you made the claim you would be doing cardio in a day or two. Yeah, you know. You don't look like you're about ready to run a marathon to me at all. No. Getting close, though. You could barely get down the stairs to the studio.

Well, and in the day is the worst for me. Morning time until midday, then it starts to hurt more. And then as this podcast goes on tonight, it will definitely be more painful. But then again, I did take one of those happy little pills. So who knows what will happen? It could be very interesting. It could be, very much so. Real Gibby might come out.

Who knows what you're here? So apologies up front. All right, Gibbs, you ready to get into this episode. Let's get into it. True crime all the time. We are talking about Robert Hansen, American serial killer, killed at least 17 women. That's a lot.

It is a lot. But on top of that, probably, I shouldn't say probably, most definitely raped at least another 30 women. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Probably more, yeah. Because we're talking about a 10-year-old. period of time, we're in Alaska, and those numbers would be astonishing, right? Those numbers would make headlines around the world just based on the numbers alone. But when you get into the

details about the crimes, it becomes even more shocking because Robert Hansen would capture, he would torture, he would sexually abuse these women, but then he would take some of them out to the remote wilderness. Yeah. Sometimes by plane, his own plane. Fly him out to his special area. And then he would let some of these women go.

Yeah. And track them down like they were wild animals. Yeah, he really got a kick out of hunting, hunting them down. He was a hunter, which we'll get into him, but we're kind of setting the scene. We've had a lot of people ask for us to cover this case. And you and I did our research. On top of that, I watched the movie Frozen Ground this past week because I knew we were going to cover him. I had seen it before.

And it's not a bad movie. No. You know, I like John Cusack. I like Nicholas Cage. Keeps your interest. Yeah. The movie was interesting. What I really realized as I was watching it since doing the podcast is you cannot squeeze in an hour and a half, an hour and 45 minutes in a movie.

No. The type of information that you'll get from, obviously from a book, but even from an hour, hour and a half podcast. Yeah. I mean, it's different than the movies you made, you know, where you could knock everything out in about 45 minutes in those hotel rooms. Oh, yeah. Those are different movies. Yeah. But, no, real Hollywood movies.

Yeah, I mean, you leave things on the floor. Yeah, there's so much of a movie that is not really telling you much, right? There's music. There's action scenes. but it's not really giving you a lot of that detailed information. And that was the one thing I walked, you know, after the movie was over, I thought, you know, I really didn't learn a lot about Robert Hansen. No, you can.

And that's maybe the angle of the movie, though. So maybe it was more geared towards, you know, Cindy. And it definitely was. I mean, they told a lot of the story from, I don't know if it was her perspective, but a lot of the story was about her, about Cindy. And obviously we're going to get into Cindy and who Cindy is and all of that. But we got to do background. We've got to start off with that like we like to do. Robert Hanson was born to Christian and Edna Hanson on February 15th, 1939 in Esterville, Iowa. His father was an immigrant of Danish ancestry. Robert did not have a very good relationship with his father, who was extremely strict and domineering. Is that a Danish thing? I don't know. Could be a 1940s thing, too. Might have been more of 19-supporty.

I mean, you know, I think dads were in general, much stricter back then. Yeah. I think they were much less in touch with their feelings, not as many dads were huggers and guys that would say, I love you. I think that, that's pretty true. Yeah, I agree with you. Compared to today. Yeah, for sure. But they owned a bakery, and his dad forced Robert to work at the family bakery.

Were they making Danish's? They might have been making some Danish-Danishes. I just wanted to get that out there. They might have been. But Roberts working long hours at this bakery. He didn't have a lot of free time. His dad didn't give him a lot of time to be a child. Like we said, his dad was someone that was known to be extremely strict.

And Robert's childhood is going to mirror a lot of killers that we've talked about before. He was bullied as a kid. He had pretty severe acne. which would ultimately leave scars on his face. His face was a little pitted from acne scars. He developed a stutter that made things worse for him. And he was small for his age. Even as an adult, he only grew to be 5'6.

So as a kid, he was pretty small and he didn't get to be very tall as an adult. He was skinny. He didn't have a lot of friends. He was a loner, but I'm not sure if that was by design or Gibbs just from the fact that he didn't have friends and he was being bullied. Yeah, it could have been.

You know, some kids make that conscious choice that they like to be alone. They're okay to be alone. Yeah. And some kids are more forced into that because they either don't fit in with a group or they're not good at making friends or they have something about them physically or that other kids are making fun of. I'm not sure which way it went with with Robert. Robert. I would probably, if I had to guess, I would say the latter based on the fact that he was being

bullied and things like that. That makes sense to me. One thing, though, is for sure. Robert Hansen had very, very low self-esteem. And that's another element that he shares with other serial killers. That is a pretty common trait among some of these people that we profile. They tend to have low, levels of self-esteem. And one thing that I found very odd, Robert was naturally left-handed. Like myself? Like yourself. Yeah. Criminals and geniuses. Yeah. Do you decide? As they always say. Yeah. But he was forced to use his right hand as a child. I forced myself a few times. I've tried to do things left-handed. It just doesn't work. My left hand, I can't write, can't throw, can't do anything. Yeah. I'm always amazed by people that are ambidextrous that can write or

throw a baseball or hit a baseball, things like that. I can't use scissors. I tried. It's messed up a little bit, you know. I can write, but my writing doesn't turn out good. But then again, my left hand at writing doesn't turn out good. Yeah. Your writing is not that good to begin with. Yeah. So. But Robert Hanson would later say that this caused him a great deal of anxiety. Being forced to use his right hand. Doesn't seem like that big a deal. But when you think about it, it was probably a huge deal to him. Right. Why are they making me do this? I'm not good at it. No, it's definitely. definitely make you feel it's an awkward thing. I'm already having all these problems as it is.

Why aren't you letting me use my dominant hand? But he would make a big deal about this later on. He would say that this led to his stutter getting even worse. So I mentioned that Robert didn't have a lot of free time. But the free time that he did have, he spent hunting. And this is going to be a theme throughout his life. Robert Hanson would become, you could say he, was a world-class hunter.

Yeah. That's where he put all his energy to. And it's been thought of, Gibbs, that that's where he channeled some of his anger and his rage that he felt for his fellow classmates, for these people, the kids that were bullying him, people have thought that he channeled it into hunting. And a lot of this rage, it's thought, may have been skewed heavily towards the pretty girls in school that dismissed him because Robert Hanson over time, like we said, he's going to develop some very strong hunting skills and he's going to use these skills later on in extremely dark and

sadistic ways. And it's all going to be aimed at females. So I don't think it's a leap that people are making this assumption that, you know, he's angry. He harbors some type of resentment towards females, back maybe from an early age. But we jumped to 1957. Robert Hanson is 18 years old. He's had a rough go of it growing up. But he's going to try to leave that all behind by joining the U.S. Army Reserve. He would serve a year in the reserves and then would move on to become an assistant drill instructor.

But remember, he's in Iowa throughout this entire period of his life, right? He hasn't got to Alaska yet. I just want to make sure that's clear. But he would hone his market. man skills in the reserves. He spent one weekend a month doing that and then the rest of the time he worked at the family-owned bakery. It's around the age of 18 that Robert has his first sexual experience. It happened in a hotel room with a sex worker and this is going to be the first of many sexual experiences that Robert has with sex workers. I mean a lot of his victims is we're

going to come to find out were sex workers. So you just wonder how that played into it, his first sexual experience, what kind of affected it to have? Well, fairly large one. Fairly large impact, I think. Definitely had an impact. There's no doubt about it. Yeah. At the age of 21, he married a local woman. But very quickly after the marriage in 1960, Robert started to show signs of behavior that would foreshadow some of the things that he was going to do later on. Because he, along with a teenage employee at the bakery, they burned down the school bus garage on December 7th of that year. Now, this teenage kid would go to the police.

And he would tell them that Robert coerced him, maybe even forced him, to help him burn down the school bus garage. Robert ends up getting three years in prison. And his wife decided, I think Gibbs, that she may not have been. made the best decision. I mean, very quickly into this marriage, your husband burns down a school bus garage and goes away for three years. She got the heck out of Dodge. She divorced Robert while he was in prison. And you know, I like to think about that. I like to think back and I wonder what she's doing now. I wonder what she. You know, I mean, she's got to be like, man, I dodged that. Yeah,

wow, man. You know, she couldn't have possibly known the monster because he hadn't become the monster. I always just wonder about that. People that know these serial killers before they become serial killers and think back about the time that they spent with them. Yeah, like, oh, I used to babysit for them, you know. Yeah. And we get those emails. We get those voicemails of people that actually knew serial killers. I'm always fascinated by it.

Robert served about 20 months of the three-year sentence. But he didn't wait very long after getting out of prison to marry again. He married his second wife in 16. and he and his wife moved to Anchorage, Alaska in 1967. Robert Hanson would take up flying lessons, which would later prove to be a pivotal piece of this puzzle that we're going to talk about of his murder spree. Because we mentioned up front, the guy had a plane,

and he took some of his victims by plane. He was seen as an avid outdoorsman, hunter. He hunted bears and wolves. And he hunted with a lot of different things. rifles, a bow and arrow. Yeah, I think he could hunt, you know, traditional and primitive and all that kind of thing. And I mentioned he was a world-class hunter. And the reason I said that is because in 1969, he held several world records associated with hunting. So, I mean, that wasn't, that wasn't hyperbole for me to say the guy was a world-class hunter. He actually held some world records. This guy was

a very, very good hunter. But I want to talk a little bit about Anchorage, Alaska, in the 1970s. Because I think it's important to set the scene of where these crimes are going to occur. You've got the construction of the big trans-alaska oil pipeline. It caused an unbelievable economic boom. And what happened from that is you have all of these people coming into the area for work and the amount of disposable income rose sharply. So you got a lot more people,

and those people have a lot more money than they had before. And what this did is it caused the seedier type of activities to thrive. Always does. It always does, right? People, money, Anchorage, Alaska, what else are you going to do? You're going to have a lot of bars. You're going to have a lot of strip clubs.

You're going to have a lot of things like, like that. And there would be a district of the city. And it was really Fourth Avenue is where all of this stuff started to accumulate. So you had a large number of topless clubs. And then what that did, so it's almost like a domino effect, right? So these clubs start opening up. Well, that brings in women from other areas into the city because the thought is that they, this is a way they can earn some big money. But then you have the Seattle Mafia. And I was really shocked about this. There was a tie to the Seattle Mafia running some things, having a lot of influence in the crime and some of the seedy activities that are going on in Anchorage, Alaska. The other thing that this economic

boom caused was a dramatic increase in the number of sex workers out on the streets. And again, some of these young women gives, they came from all over. Yeah, I mean, I think, like you said, I mean, with that type of environment and all the new clubs opening up and the mafia involved and then you're going to have alcohol and drugs and a lot of guys working on the pipeline that are flashing a lot of money. Yep. And, you know, they're away from probably the loved ones and looking for some TLC. That's a very good euphemism.

You just use there. I like that one. TLC. Looking for some TLC. TLC. And some of the women that would come in from other areas to work at the dance clubs ended up on the streets as sex workers. But no matter how it all went down, this is the perfect hunting grounds for a man like Robert Hanson. He was able to find a large number of women willing to go with him for a few hundred dollars.

Now, Hanson was arrested in 1972 for abduction and the attempted rape of a local woman. And he was also charged with the rape of a sex worker. So this is all in 1972, right? He'd been in Alaska for about five years or so. He would serve less than six months for both of these charges. That kind of shocked me a little bit. He served 20 months for setting the school bus garage on five. I know. Nobody got hurt. I'm not saying that's a good thing to do. No, I know. But he hurt and violated

multiple women and somehow served less than six months. I don't get that. I'm never shocked anymore. No, I don't know why I act shocked because I'm not either. I should be. But seeing it time and time again play out the way that we do. Oh, I know. He gets arrested again in 1977 for stealing a chainsaw. and it would be because of this arrest that Robert Hanson is diagnosed as being bipolar. He's prescribed medication while he's in jail, but he won't take it. And they evaluate him. There are some reports on him to indicate he's a dangerous individual. But despite all of that, he only serves one year of a five-year prison sentence.

And when he gets out, he's supposed to take this medication, but he's. won't take it on the outside either. Now, I got to talk about Robert Hansen's arsenal of weapons, because obviously this is going to come into play as we get further on in the story. When his father died, he inherited a large number of guns. And I mean, I'm talking like maybe 15 to 20 different guns that his father had. But by 1981, Robert Hanson is the consummate family man. He owns his own bakery in town, but nobody gives not even.

even his wife knew the real Robert Hansen. So this is not a loner now that we're talking about, right? This is not a man that is able to go anywhere he wants to at any time and do anything. He's got a wife and kids. That adds an element to this story. Makes it creepier too. It does. It definitely makes it creepier. And speaking of that, my wife says to me, because she watched the movie with me, my wife says to me, how could this guy do this? this with his wife and kids. And then she's, it will always morph into the question. She asked me, are you a serial killer? And I said, no, what makes you ask? Because I think what's going through her head is the same thing that goes through a lot of people's heads, which is how these people carry this

stuff out. Like, I go to work. I come home. I'm with my family at night. When do you have time? I don't have, well, I take that back. I do have a lot of time. This is where my wife's mind went. She says, I don't know what you do after the kids and I go to bed. Especially she didn't say, what about that Gibby? You know, he is left-handed. Oh, she's really suspicious about you. He has left-hand it, you know. He's got that IQ thing.

She's like, I know you do the podcast, but I don't know how much time that takes you. Yeah. I mean, I had to pause the movie because she was talking so much during it. Yeah, about me being a serial killer. Which really frustrates you. It does. Yeah. That is like one of my biggest pet.

You're like, I'm not one, but I might be one now. If you don't let me watch the movie. Yeah. But I think it is scary. You mentioned it. It makes it scarier to think about what this man did in secret, unknown to his family, using the disguise as a family man along the way to help carry out his plans, the things that he does. Even his bakery business was built on a lie.

He opened it in January of 1981 with about $13,000. But he got the money. from filing an insurance claim. He stated that his home had been robbed, but later on, apparently the things that he said had been stolen in the robbery were found in his backyard.

And when questioned about, he said, yeah, they showed up. I just forgot to tell you about it. I just forgot to tell everybody about it. Oh, okay. But the Hansons were seen around the community as upstanding. They went to church.

There were a lot of police officers that frequented the bakery. That's not a stereotype on cops. There just happened to be a lot of cops that were at this bakery. But what nobody knew, not his family, not the cops, not other members of the community, was that Robert Hanson, by this time in 1981, he had already been playing out his sick fantasies for years. And they would ultimately turn to murder. Because Hansen's later going to say that he started praying on women as early

is 1973. And he started off by choosing women that caught his eye. So if he liked a way that a woman looked or whatever it was about somebody, that's who he would pick to victimize. But later on, he said that he figured out that sex workers and exotic dancers and people that, you know, he saw down on 4th Avenue in this seedy part of town, they were. were less likely to be missed. So he figured this out and those are the people that he started to target. And we've heard that before. Other serial killers that we've talked about did the same thing, you know? Well, we want to, we want to think that serial killers are dumb. We want to think that they're robots, but they're not. Some of these guys are very intelligent. And some of them,

Maybe not in book smarts, Gibbs, but you talk about this a lot, street smarts. Yeah. So he's smart enough to pick up on the fact that, you know, if I change up my selection process, I'm less likely to get caught. And that's exactly what he did. Picton did it. Yeah, picked and targeted. Yeah.

That was very similar. It was like a rundown area of the town. He prayed on women that he didn't think would be missed. Yeah, very similar. And when I was talking about Hansen's background, I mentioned the fact that he channeled his rage into hunting and that maybe some of that rage was directed towards some of the females in his class that probably dismissed him because of the way he looked or the way he acted, whatever it was. The same thought goes into how he may have picked some of his victims. The thought is that he saw these women as bad. They deserve to be punished in his mind.

And Robert Hansen's idea of punishment involved rape. It involved torture. And then eventually, when you get around 1980, it involved murder. But prior to 1980, there was a lot of women going missing from Anchorage and other towns in Alaska. But it wouldn't be till much later that Hansen would be considered a suspect. There were a large number of missing persons reports filed in 1980 alone. These were women in the Anchorage area, in the sewered area of Alaska. Many of these women were topless dancers or sex workers.

But it's in that year, 1980, that a construction crew is working along a Cloutina Road and they find the partial remains of a female. She had been buried in a shallow grave. Now, animals had taken most of the body. We find that a lot with bodies that have been left out. And you've got to figure this is probably a pretty remote area. Anywhere in Alaska is probably a pretty remote area. Most places for sure.

During the research, Gibbs, I saw one thing about Alaska. It said, Alaska is bigger than the UK, France, and Germany combined. But the population is less than Luxembourg. That just blew me away. Because immediately you knew what Luxembourg's population was. No. I didn't. But I know it's not big.

Yeah. So to be that big in size and to have such a small population, and even the population they have, clustered in, you know, some of the bigger cities, you've got so much of Alaska that is just nothing but remote wilderness. Yeah. It's a good place to do what he wants to do. There's no better place, and this is going to sound strange, but there's no better place to do what Robert Hansen does. So they find this body.

The authorities were unable to identify the woman and she would become known as a Clutna Annie, named after the road by where she was found. It was thought that she was probably one of these missing girls. You know, they had all these missing persons reports, but they didn't know who she was. They even made a facial reconstruction, but no one ever comes forward to tell the authorities who she is or who she was. The next victim found later that same year was 24-year-old Joanne Messina.

And Joanne was last seen in the town of Seward in July. Her body was found in a gravel pit not very far from where a cloutna Annie had been discovered. There was very little evidence at the scene. and Joanne's body was also very badly decomposed. Sherry Morrow was an exotic dancer who was last seen November 17, 1981. Her body would be found September 12th, 1982. So it was almost a year from the last time that she was seen. And it was found by two off-duty police officers along the Nick River.

And this Nick River area is going to be central to this entire. to this entire case. It's about 25 miles from Anchorage. So this pair, these two off-duty police officers, they were out hunting, and they stumbled across a boot sticking out of the sand along the river. And as they examined the boot, they discovered a decomposed bone joint. Now, these guys were police officers. They knew what they were looking at. And they knew what to do. It'd be different than Joe Public walks along and finds a boot with something strange sticking out of it. We go over there. We pick it up. We look at it. These guys knew better. And they didn't disturb the crime scene. They called it in. Investigators came to the scene and they worked for hours, sifting through the sand and they found a

223 shell casing. They also found some ace bandages. So Mike, when they say a 223, I mean, what are they saying? I mean, I know it's not a 22, or any of that. What is that? Well, technically, it is a 22. I mean, it's a 22 caliber bullet, 2, 23. Okay. But the difference is it's a rifle round. So what you have is a pretty small bullet on top of a fairly large shell case.

Okay. With a good amount of powder. So it's a powerful... It's small, but it goes very fast. Okay. So 223, so 223 is what most people shoot out of like an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle. Yeah. The government would use like 556 NATO rounds.

So what's the difference between the 223s and the 556? They're pretty much the same. Okay. As far as size. So a rifle that will shoot 556 will also shoot a 223, but a rifle that is only meant for 223 won't shoot 556. But they're very similar. Unfortunately, 223 or 556, because of it being synonymous with the AR-15, that's what has been used in a lot of the mass shootings that we've experienced here in the States recently.

Now, Sherry had been found clothed and there were no bullet holes in her clothing. So police theorized that she had been nude when she was killed and then her killer had redressed her, which makes perfect. sense, how are you going to have multiple bullet wounds but no holes in your clothing? Right. And we've heard that before too. We've had killers that've done that. I've had a lot of undressing and redressing in some of the cases we've done. I don't get it. I don't understand it. So clearly if you're in a remote area, you've got plenty time to do all that. You know, you can shoot that high, I'm assuming it's a high power rifle or sounds like maybe. Oh, it's loud. Yeah. I don't know if I'd call it a high powered rifle. I mean, there's obviously

obviously much, much bigger calibers, much higher power. But it's not something you're going to be able to shoot and people won't hear it. Oh, no. Right. So, but they're doing this. He's doing this. And he's able to take his time and redress her and stuff. I mean, that's the advantages of being so remote.

I think, yeah, yeah, he had all the time in the world. Yeah. Time was not a factor like it is in many of the cases that we talk about. If you're, you're killing people in the city in the heart of the city. Yeah. You, time is not your friend. You don't have that luxury. And out in that area, I don't think people would ever think anything more than somebody

just got himself some type of animal out there, right? Yeah, because, and we'll get into it more as we go, but this Nick River Valley is like a hunting hotspot. It's where everybody went to hunt. It's like the mecca for Alaskan hunting. Yeah, so to hear a rifle off in the distance, you're not going to bat an eye. Yeah. Your first thought is not going to be, oh my gosh, what is that?

Like it is here in my subdivision. Yeah, yeah, you would definitely be. If a rifle fires off. Yeah. Now, it was thought that the ace bandages that were found with Sherry's body had been used to blindfold her. But investigators at this point, they're starting to put together that they may have a serial killer on their hand. All right, Gibbs. Let's take a quick break to talk about Simpli Save.

Let's do it. The cases that we talk about, if they don't, already should make people think, I need an alarm system. Absolutely. Now, I've been using SimplySafe for about a year. You use SimplySafe. Yes. We both love it. Absolutely. SimplySafe obsesses over the details like no other home security system. And what I love gives is the camera, the camera that you can control from your phone, but they don't want to just protect your home. They want to protect your privacy as well. So they came up with this privacy shutter for the camera. And you'll hear it click. And when you hear it click, you'll hear it click, you.

you'll know it's closed. And there's a light on it so you can easily tell when it's on. But when I got Simply Safe, I was able to get rid of my home phone because it doesn't work like traditional security systems. It's completely wireless. The way the most of the world is going or has went. I also cut my home security bill big time. Absolutely. Because their monitoring was much cheaper than my old service.

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Now it was in January of 1982 that Hansen bought his own plane. He bought a Piper Super Cove. This is going to become one. one of the tools that he would use to carry out his sick and twisted fantasy murders. He's still picking up women on Fourth Avenue, but now is when he starts to fly them out to remote areas around the Nick River, because he actually had a small cabin out there. Like, I like a hunting cabin. I'm sure there were a number of them out there.

Yeah. But Robert Hansen had one. And like we talked about, eventually he would. set them free, and he would hunt them down and kill them. And it said that sometimes he would use a knife, and other times he would use his mini-14 Ruger rifle, which fired a 223. And like many serial killers, Hansen was methodical.

One thing that he did was he kept an aviation chart. And on this chart, he made marks of his hunting areas. And I'm using my air quotes that nobody can see Gibbs because we know what he's hunting for. We know exactly what he's hunting for. But this aviation chart's going to come back around to be used against him later on. And then we jump into 1983. And Hanson makes what I consider to be a very strange decision. He starts bringing these women back to his house.

And he called this his summer project. So what he did was he sent his wife and kids off on vacation for the summer. I don't know how long they were gone, but for a while. And he used this time to pick up women, bring them home, keep them captive. He would torture them in his basement. So obviously, when we talk about how does a married man with kids get away with something like this, this is one way that he did. Now, he got away with it for a long time before this by using the, hey, I've got to go hunting or I've got to go to the cabin or I'm sure he used a lot of those excuses.

Oh, yeah. I mean, if that's what he typically would do. I mean, he's just filling that void with something different now instead of what he used to. But now he finds a way to have the house all to himself for an extended period of time. He even started placing ads in the local paper for singles. I mean, it's definitely a way to isolate out a female or any victim, you know, running certain... Well, by placing an ad, you're basically saying in the paper, this is what I'm looking for. Yeah.

If you meet the, you know, these criteria, hey, let's get together. Yeah, I mean, it's, you can't do it even better than ordering up just like that. I mean, it's just a... Well, he's got that, but he also has, like we talked about, this perfect breeding ground for him to choose victims. Right. He's trolling around his car. How hard is it to get somebody into the car if all of these sex workers are walking around on the street? Well, if that's the norm, which apparently it was back during that time in Anchorage. You know, they're going to jump in. Like, you know, it's just couldn't be a better scenario for them. I mean, runaways, transit people, whatever. You know, they're not going to be missed. Well, and getting into cars with strangers for money to broker a deal is what these women did.

I mean, they did it night in, night out, and he used that to his advantage. I don't think there's any doubt about that. But like I said, he would take these women back to his house. He would chain them up in his basement, torture them, sexually assault them. And then he would take them to the airfield and put them in the plane and, and fly off to the Nick River Valley. But the one thing that Hansen did, again, like a lot of other serial killers,

he kept souvenirs from his victims and he tucked them away in a secret hiding spot in his basement. And then we get up to June 13, 1983. A sex worker named Cindy Paulson, and this is the Cindy that is prominently featured in the movie. Sure. She's wondering around. with handcuff on her wrist and she's seen by a trucker.

And the trucker gives her a ride. She ends up calling the police. When the police show up, Cindy tells them the story of how Hansen offered her $200 for oral sex. Which back to him was a lot of money for such an act. I don't know how you know that. I'm not going to ask you how you know that. I'm just going to go with it.

There you go. I should have just went with it, but I had to say something. You had to say something, didn't you? I did. Yeah, research. Not that type of research. Is he just digging yourself a deeper hole? But during the act, during the sex act, Hansen pulled a gun on Cindy and handcuffed her.

And he told her that if she cooperated, he wouldn't kill her. He took Cindy to his house where he raped and tortured her. Then he drove her to the airfield where his plane was located. but as Hansen was loading supplies into the plane, Cindy saw her opportunity and she was able to take off running. And she said that Hansen briefly chased after her, but he backed off when he saw that she had flagged down this trucker. So if the trucker doesn't come along, I don't know if she gets away. Yeah, she's lucky. I think she's very, very lucky.

Yeah. But I think she also made some of her own luck. Oh, absolutely. She saw a window. She saw an opportunity to get away and she took it. But Cindy would be able to tell police the exact model, the exact color of the plane. She even remembered what the tail number was. And from that, it wasn't hard for police to figure out who owned the plane.

They quickly realized it was Robert Hansen. And Cindy even said, you know, this is the guy. But the problem was he had an analysis. Robert Hansen had two friends that told police he was with them that night, the night of when Cindy was abducted. So they weren't able to charge him. But then later on in September, September 2nd, another body is found. And this is the body of Paula Golding.

She's found on the banks of the Nick River. Paula was only 17 years old. and had last been seen in Anchorage back in April. And I don't think investigators had any doubt that this killing was connected. I mean, Paula had been killed in pretty much the exact same way as Sherry Morrow. So was she redressed then? She was redressed after she was killed. Everything kind of lined up for them.

And it was after the discovery of Paula Golding that police started to look at Robert Hansen again. The FBI even gets into the picture at this point. And I read a couple of different things on this Gibbs. There's a lot of evidence that John Douglas was involved. I think he even wrote in his book, Mind Hunter, that he was involved in this case. Okay. There's also some talk about maybe Roy Hazelwood was involved as well. But we'll go with Douglas.

He creates a profile of the killer. And his profile is amazing. You know, he says, this is a guy. that's going to have low self-esteem. He's going to have a history of rejection from women. He's also going to be a very experienced hunter. Now, if that's not right, dead on enough, Douglas goes on to say that the killer would keep trophies and that he most likely would have a stutter. That blows me away. Now, you know how much I like Mind Hunter. Oh, yeah. I finally watched it all the other day, too. Oh, did you?

I tried to get Gibby into it at CrimeCon. He watched a few episodes. You wouldn't get off of his phone. I was also nervous because you wanted to share the same bed the first night before my room was available. I mean, what is better than cuddling and watching Mind Hunter? A lot. It is a good show, though. I can't wait for season two.

I think season two's coming out. Yeah, I think it would be good. But that blows me away at how accurate the profile ultimately, turned out to be. So detectives re-interview these two men that provided Robert Hansen his alibi. And they finally got them to tell the truth by threatening them with perjury. And the men said that they had not been with Hansen the night that Cindy was abducted. They had lied to cover for him. So this brings him right back into focus for police, you know, suspect number one. There's that brocode out there. That's the brocode taking it too far, though, right?

That is way, yeah, that's over the line brocode. Yeah. Now, if you want to talk about your buddy stayed out too late last night and he tells his wife that he was with you. Yeah. But he didn't hurt anybody. He didn't cheat or, you know, he just stayed out too late. Right. I'm okay with that brocode.

Gotcha. To lie to cover up a murder investigation. That's too far for the brocode. Now, some people might not think so. Some people take that brocode very seriously. They ride and die. Okay. I don't know what that means.

Is that from a movie? Is that from... Is that going to lead us down a path of... No. No coming back from? There's definitely no coming back from that one. Because it doesn't mean it. You just made it up?

I just did. So they question Robert Hansen again about the crimes, but they also are now able to get search warrants for his house, his plane, and his cars. And while they're at his house, they find some very incriminating evidence located in a hidden space. And this is a part of the movie that I thought they did a really good job with. That tension of it coming right down to the end. I think a lot of that was very true.

You know, they were talking to Hanson at the same time that they were searching his house. If they don't find anything to tie him to the murders, they're going to have to let him go. But luckily they do. They find IDs and jewelry from his victims. They find his aviation map that we talked about that had the little marks on it that are going to turn out to be his hunting sites. But probably the most incriminating piece of evidence they find is Hansen's 223 mini 14 Ruger rifle. So more interrogation, Hansen repeatedly denies being. involved with any of the crimes, but he's arrested, right? At this point, they have enough evidence. They have the evidence they need to arrest him. On November 3rd, 1983, an Anchorage grand jury returned for indictments against Hanson, first degree assault and kidnapping, five counts

of misconduct and possession of a handgun, theft in the second degree, and theft by deception and insurance fraud. So they're even going back to his insurance fraud. and nailing him for that. They're getting everything they can on them. They're trying to throw everything in there. Because investigators at this point, they're still waiting on the ballistic test results on his rifle. So they're not charging him with any murders.

I mean, you didn't hear me say anything about murder, right? This assault, kidnapping, handgun, theft. This is not murder at this point. No, but it keeps him from fleeing. Yes. It keeps them in the area allows them. to kind of know, I guess they can kind of put a tail on them. They can kind of start doing some background investigation. Well, bail said it a half million dollars. Well, that's pretty hefty right

there. Right. Yeah. So I think they accomplished what they set out to do. Now, he pled not guilty to all charges. Yeah, but that's a hefty bail. That is a hefty bill. So I mean, that's good because, you know, he has that plane, so he could flee if he wanted it. The ballistic tests come back a couple of weeks later, they say that the bullets and casings found at the crime scenes matched the rifle which belonged to Hansen. And this was the FBI crime lab. You know, they determined that specifically the shell casings found at the gravesites had all been fired from Hanson's rifle. And that is one area that is fascinating to me. We talk about that in a lot of cases, right? Matching up bullets or casings to the gun that they were fired from.

You know, so they're looking at the firing pin mark that's left in the primer. They're looking at the extractor markings as the shell is being ejected. So those are like, those are definitely key identifiers to an individual's weapon, right? My understanding is it's a lot like fingerprints. The extractor markings, I think, are very telling. The striations or striations or. Something. Something in that regard. Yeah. Yeah. But that, that's my understanding is that, you know, it is a science like fingerprinting and they can be very, very accurate and very conclusive. Now, you'd be good at that. I would like that. Yeah, I see you doing that. But you got to think about Robert Hanson, right? How much evidence now is mounting against him. He's found with all of these personal items belonging to the victims, showcasing's found buried with the victims

match his gun. Pretty tough at this point. Oh, not to mention the fact that there's an eyewitness, Cindy Paulson, who can conclusively link you with rape, attempted murder, maybe. He's not getting out of this one. And he knows it.

He knows his only chance is to try to cut a deal. And the DA offers him one. And the deal is if Hansen would provide a full confession, he would only be charged with four murders. So it would be Sherry Morrow, Joanna Messina, Paula Golding, and a cloutina Annie, who they still don't know who this woman is. And on top of that,

he is going to be charged with the kidnapping and rape of Cindy Paulson. And there's one other caveat to this deal. And for Hansen, it was probably a pretty big one. They say that they will let him serve out his time in a federal facility. And, and he's a federal facility. And, and for Hansen, it was probably a pretty big one. And they say that they will let him serve out his time in a federal facility. They won't send him to a maximum security prison. So basically he gets the holiday in version of prison. Yeah, not cake, but much better, I assume, than a maximum security prison. Absolutely it is. Yeah, I mean, it's night and day. So Hansen takes the deal and he starts to provide authorities with a lot of information. information about how he carried out the crimes.

He told them that he would offer money to a woman for sex or to take nude photographs of her. Once he got a victim under his control, he would normally take her either by car out to the Nick Valley region or take her on his plane, fly out to his remote cabin. he would brutally rape and torture these women, and then he would strip them naked. Oftentimes he would blindfold them, and then he would set them free in the woods. And Hansen would say that he would give his victim a brief headstart. Very nice of him, Gibbs. Oh, yeah. Such a good guy, huh? But then he would hunt them down.

And like we've said, either using a hunting knife or his rifle. The sex worker industry has always been one of the most dangerous professions. I don't know how it can't be. You're so vulnerable. Yeah. You don't know who this person is. You don't know what their intentions are other than what they're telling you their intentions are. But they could be totally different, right?

That could just be, as in the case of Robert Hanson, the ruse that gets you in the car. Again, it's not like you see a woman down the street and you're trying to love. lure her into a car. Right. That's much different. This is a person who is working in a profession that requires them to get into a car. Yes. With strangers.

Exactly. That's why it's so dangerous. So yeah, you're absolutely right. But Hansen would go on to talk about the hunting and describing it in detail as if he was talking about, you know, hunting a wild animal. I just can't imagine how this conversation went. Yeah, I mean, for him, it was just another game animal. It was really all it was.

At that time, when he was hunting. Well, that's sure how he treated these women, right? As if they were, actually, he treated them worse than a game animal. You know, he tortured them. He victimized them sexually, and then he hunted them. So if he wanted to be truthful about the whole situation, I mean, what he did was weaken a healthy person. and his mind, a healthy animal, by torturing them, right, denying them certain things. And then doesn't tell them the rules of engagement, but lets them think that they're going to

build just to get away, and then he tracks them. Well, let's not forget, he blindfolded a lot of these women. But Hansen would also tell investigators that he let some of his victims go. And he did this in instances where he was convinced that they would not go to police. Again, this might be another reason why he chose the type of victims that he did, or the victims that were in these professions, because he probably felt that they were less likely to go to police. I would say that probably gave him some form of rush. That's some pretty good control. When you can do all that stuff to somebody and then turn around and let them go, you know, look, I'm letting you go.

I'm trusting you're not going to go run and tell anybody because if you do, you're not going to go run and tell anybody because if you do, you're not. you know what's going to happen to you. That's a power trip, man. Yeah, I didn't think about it that way, but I think you're absolutely right. I mean, that's feeding his ego, and you've got to have some form of ego to do what he's doing. As the interview winds down, they give Hanson a large aerial map of the region. He identifies 15 gravesites on this map. 12 of them were unknown to investigate, but they figure out that they're never going to be able to find these places on their own. So they actually take Robert Hanson up in a plane with them to go out looking for these locations. So the very next day, they take Hanson to the Anchorage Airport.

They board a military helicopter and they make their first stop on the Nick River. It's not very far from where the body of Paula Golding was found. And then they just start flying all over the place, making stop after. after stop. At every one of these stops, Hansen leads investigators to the site. Now, there's snow on the ground, but he's able to take them directly to some of these burial sites. And they, what they would do is they would mark the trees with orange paint so that they could come back, you know, later and find it. Yeah, they had to wait until the spring when the ground thalled. And Robert Hanson pled guilty on February 18th,

1984 to four counts of first degree murder. And again, those were in the cases of Paula Golding, Joanna Messina, Sherry Morrow, and a cloutina Annie. And it's just a week later. February 27th, the judge sentences

Robert Hanson to 461 years plus life. No chance of parole. So you get 461 years, Gibbs, and then on top of that, I'm going to give you a life. Just put that in your pocket. hole. There you go. If I was a judge, that's how I would say it too. You take pie hole. You put that in your pie hole. But because of this deal, right, we talked about this federal facility, Hanson is shipped off to Lewisburg Federal Penitentiary in Pennsylvania. So all the way from Alaska to Pennsylvania. But by May of

1984, investigators had found a number of bodies at these grave sites that Robert Hansen had, essentially taken them to, pointed out to them. They discovered the body of Sue Luna, 23 years old. She was last seen in Anchorage in May of 1982. She was found along the Nick River. Malai Larson was found in some type of parking area by a bridge on the Nick River. DeLynn Frye was found at Horseshoe Lake. Teresa Watson was found at Kenai Peninsula. Angela Federn was found at Figure 8 Lake. Tamara Peterson was found about a mile and a half from that same bridge on the, on the Nick River. This was all in about a four or five day span in April. They found all of these bodies. And then on May 9th, they found the body of Lisa Futrell. She was 41.

last seen in Anchorage on September 6, 1980. And her body was also found not that far from this bridge on the Nick River. It's a lot of bodies. It is a lot of bodies. The bad part is police know there's a lot more. Sure. Yeah. Because the one thing that would come out is there were some markings on the aviation map that

Robert Hanson wouldn't give details on. So he took them to all these places that were marked. on the map, but there were some markings that he didn't want to divulge. Which is... Information about, which is strange. Which is strange, especially knowing the type of deal he made, so... And he's never getting out. Why not give police every bit of information?

Maybe that was some power trip, control, his last vestige of control that he had. Yeah, that could have been. To withhold some of that information. But there are a number of women. that are thought to have been victims of Robert Hansen. Andrea Altieri was 22 years old, last seen in Anchorage in 1981. I think this is one that Hansen admitted to, but they just never could find her body. There was a woman that is known simply as Horseshoe Harriet, very similar to a cloutna Annie

in that her true identity has never been figured out. Roxanne Eastland was 24 years old last seen on June 28th, 1980 in Anchorage. Again, this might be one I think that Robert either talked about, admitted to, but they could not find her body. Celia Van Zanton, she was only 17. Now, this is one in a series, there was three for sure, that Robert Hansen denied. Point blank said that he was not involved with, but the body of Celia was found. And it was found near an X on the aviation map. Yeah.

And that's why police believed that he was involved. So here's the X on his map. And here's a body. Right where the X marked the spot. Yeah. Yeah. But he flat out says, I didn't do that. And again, why?

I mean. Yeah, if you did it, why say you didn't other than you have no more power? This is a person that was probably drunk on the power. power, the feeling of power that he was getting over these women. Or, go with me on this. I always do. These particular women really got underneath him, right? You know, like under his skin?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, he really disliked them throughout the ordeal that he had with them, that he wasn't going to do them the favor to allow them to be recovered. I can't fight you on that. You know, I mean, I, it's plausible. Yeah. So anyway. I mean, who's to say what's going through this guy's mind?

Well, that's true. Megan Emrick was 17 years old when she disappeared from Anchorage, but she disappeared all the way back in 1973. Now, we know that that's the year that he began. But this is another one that Robert Hansen denies, but it's suspected because of, you know, NX on that, that aviation map. The same with Mary Thill. she was 23. She disappeared from Seward in 1975.

But again, Robert Hansen denies murdering her as well. In 1988, Hansen was returned to Alaska. And he became one of the first inmates in this new Spring Creek Correctional Center in Seward. And it was said Gibbs that he spent most of his time there working as a barber. He had a number of different cellmates during his time at the facility. But Robert Hansen was a very model prisoner. You know, he was well behaved. They considered him to be low maintenance.

He didn't act up, didn't get in fights. And he would be at Spring Creek from 1988 to May of 2014. He started to have some health issues. And he was transferred to a correction facility in Anchorage. And it was said that this jail in Anchorage is, one of the state's only correctional facilities with a medical unit. So that's why they moved him there. Makes sense.

Yeah. And Robert Hansen died August 21st, 2014. He was 75 years old. So he was only there for about what, Gibbs, three months. At that facility. At that facility, having health issues. And then he died. But I want to talk about Frank Rothschild.

Because we really didn't talk about the trial. I mean, it was open and shut, right? this was not a case to get into the trial all that much. But after Hanson's death, Frank Rothschild, who was the DA that tried the case, obviously they interviewed him. And he, Frank says, Robert Hansen will not be missed. Good riddons. He's one of those kinds of guys that you hope with every breath he takes in life,

there's some pain associated with it because he caused. such pain. And Rothschild said, Hansen didn't see his victims as human. In his mind, there were good girls and bad girls. These were all purposefully bad girls. So that kind of goes back to what I touched on earlier, which is a big theory that a lot of people had of this good girl versus bad girl, punishment of women that Robert Hanson saw as in his mind as being bad, bad girls. Bad girls. Not doing the right thing. And that's why he chose them.

Now, I don't think he says that's why he chose them. I think he says he chose them because he didn't think they would be missed. So that's it, Gibbs, for the case of Robert Hanson. Yeah. It's a good flick, too, if you want to check it out if you haven't seen it. It's not bad. I'm not, it's not great.

I mean, it's serviceable for what it is. It's not a documentary. Did you just say serviceable? Mm-hmm. Okay. And I also said it's not a documentary. No, it's a...

But you're going to hone in on the fact that I said it's serviceable. That's... No, it's an okay movie. I guess I just probably wanted more than what that type of movie is really set to deliver. Well, you always want more, but... I do. Yeah, I think it, after he's... after hearing this, jump over Netflix and check it out.

Yep. It's not on Netflix. It's not on Netflix, and it's not on NextFix either, because I looked. Oh. Oh, you know, I saw, I think I saw it on Paramount. Is that like Paramount? Yeah. The movie company?

Yeah. They have a... What's Paramount? Same thing. Oh, okay. Same thing. Either one. Either saw it on that, or I saw it on...

But what is that? Used it, that's a movie. Racco. Racco. Raku. Roku. Roku. Roku.

They have their own, they're like Netflix. They have their own lineup. Paramount? Paramount and Raccoo. Roku. Roku. Yeah. Yeah, they all have their own.

Oh, okay. I don't have Roku, so. Don't you? No. I don't have Raccoon either. Raccoon's pretty good stuff. Why should get me one of those. Yeah.

But I think you're right, Gibbs. You listen to this podcast. You get the background of Robert Hanson. Yeah. Jump over and watch the movie. I think it would be much more enjoyable. I think so, too. Because you already know the pieces that the movie is missing. Yeah. They're not, it's not designed to tell you. You get to know Cindy a little bit more intimate. The movie does

focus on Cindy a lot. Yeah. And it really does tell her story in a large part of the movie. Sure. What you don't get, so I guess we should have said for people that haven't seen it yet, John Cusack plays Robert Hanson. Yeah. And I just didn't get a lot from him, you know, about why he was doing the things he was doing. Obviously, they don't talk about his childhood or anything like that. Yeah, he's a pretty good actor, too. Oh, I think he's great. And I think Nick Cage is...

What was the Cusack's best movie that you liked him in? Say anything. You like that, huh? I like that one where he played The Hit Man, where he went back to high school for his... Oh, Gross Point Blank? Gross Point Blank, yeah. I lived right in the next town over when I was in Detroit.

Yeah, I think that was an old-time classic there. That was a good movie. Yeah, I like that. What about Nick Cage? Nick Cage? Raising... Raising hairs of it. Yeah, that's a good one.

So Nick Cage, I swear that guy's been in a thousand movies. He'll make like four movies in a year. They'll all be horrible. Yeah. A lot of his have been stinkers lately. Sorry, Nick. That's why he's in financial wish. He's in financial distress or something, isn't he?

How can he be in financial distress? He's made a thousand movies. I think he forgot to pay the IRS guy and made some bad investments. Is there just one guy that he has to pay or is it just the IRS in general? I think this is that one IRS guy, man. It's just that one guy. It's always that IRS guy, that one IRS guy that gets you. But there are some really good Nicholas Cage movies.

I love Gone in 60 Seconds. Yeah. I love Raising Arizona. I even like Peggy Sue got married back in the day. I like the one he played in where he had like the OCD compulsive disorder. He had to take the meds for it. Did you say OCD compulsive disorder? Yeah, I know.

You're going to leave out the O? Yeah. Sorry. he um he was like a scamster you're giving me a lot of details here a scamster with OCD yeah he had if he took his pills he was all right if he didn't take his pill he acted up but he so they would go to people's house and like they just won some big check and

they get you to cut a check against the against the can you give me one other person in this movie so you remember charlie's angels yes you remember the guy that was the bad guy in that No, I remember three angels and that's it. Well, that guy was... And I had posters of every one of them. That guy was his partner in this movie. I mean, how old is this movie? I don't know.

It's like 10 years old, 15 years old. I don't know. Oh, what was the guy's name? He's a, man, he's a credible actor too. He's credible? Yeah, and incredible. Oh, he's incredible? You're going to have people screaming into their iPhones and Samsung.

He always, every movie he's in, this guy, he always, he likes to show off, he's got the same. dance move. Same dance movie. He always does this little... Is it a dance movie? No. Why is this guy dancing? He always does this. There's always some point in the movie he gets to do like a little celebration dance. He's always got the same little dance. He's the one with, he's trying to hook up with Drew, Drew Barrymore and the first Charlie's Angel. Hell, I thought you was talking about the series from 19th. That's why I asked you, how old is this movie? No, no, I'm talking about Charlie's Angels full throttle or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. you talking about Sam?

Yes. Sam... See, now we're in at least the right decade. Yeah. So whatever Sam was last, Sam, whether... No, that's another guy. That's the guy from... Yeah.

I can't think of his name, but he was the bad guy in Iron Man, too. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, that's him. Jeez, Pete, man. So him and Nick are in this movie together. They play scamsters.

It's good. Nick's daughter comes to live with him. No clue. No. Hides the money. And the dog. Saying new things, I'm still not going to know what you're talking about. This is like a pictionary game that has gone horribly wrong.

Yeah. Well, anyway, that's that. And that's been the movie section of this episode. But anyway, Hanson, horrible. Yes. I'm like the band that Mike listens to a lot. Yeah, that's horrible too. Not as bad as Robert Hanson, but not that far behind, to be honest with.

Yeah. Just the way that he viewed women as less than human, right? I mean, you'd have to say that, Gives. He viewed women as less than human. He would have to have to have treated them the way that he did. He put him on the same playing field as animals. As animals. And sometimes I think even worse. He treated him as bad as you could possibly treat somebody. But that's it. That is the case of Robert Hanson. So, hey, I looked that movie up. Yeah. And it's a matchstick. Men. Never heard of it. 2003. It was a big hit. Big hit. I don't think it was. I'm just saying it was a big hit, man.

I bet you it made no money. I've never heard of it. I know I've never seen it. But people are always asking, why don't we Google things? And this time we did. But Rotten Tomato gave it 82%, which is... That's actually pretty good. A good thing, I believe.

For Rotten Tomato. Yeah. All right, based on that alone, I will watch it. Well, Sam Rockwell. Rockwell, that's his name. Yep. Now you're full of answers after you got your phone out. That's right. I'm all over it now.

All right, Gibbs. We've got some voicemails. Let's do it. When you hear those? Hello, Mike and Gibby. This is Jared Beanfield from Ogden, Utah. Probably the first Ogden, Utah caller you've had since you started to show. But I sent you an email a while back regarding the Arthur Shaw Cross case and my grandpa's involvement in it as an officer. I wanted to tell me you. But anyway, I just want to give you a call, let you know how much you enjoy your show.

It makes it as long work days go by really quick, as everybody knows. Really appreciate it. Really appreciate what you guys are doing. I did have a couple of recommendations for you as far as cases go. The first one is the one to add killer, Harvey Corrignan, or Harb the Hammer. And possibly an unsolved case would be the Jefferson County Egan murders. That happened on Highway 81, just two miles north of Watertown, New York. And family of three was shot dead in a rest stop and had a few suspects, but no one was ever convicted.

Funny enough, the guy that was suspected of committing the murder actually did my grandparents' driveway in Watertown. But my grandpa is also involved in that case. Anyway, I just wanted to hand those out to you and let you know how much appreciate the show. Take care. Bye-bye. All right. Appreciate that voicemail. And I think we gave him a shout out last week as being a new Patreon supporter.

I think so, yeah. Yeah, so. I think you said his name. I probably did. You know, he's out that part of Utah up there with that waterfall. Canyon is, you know, where you take that trail. It's a good place to hike. I have no idea what you're talking about, but I'm going to say you're right. Maybe you can hide some bodies there. I don't know. Hey, Mike and Gibby. This is Jennifer calling from Annapolis, Maryland. I've listened to both your

podcast from the beginning, and I wanted to call you in January when I was deployed to Afghanistan. Unfortunately, I couldn't make the call back then, but now that I'm home, I wanted to tell you how much I appreciated your holiday rambling's episode at the end of December. Part of what I love about your podcast is the obvious friendship you have and the easy joking banter you put out every week. The holiday rambling episode was especially wonderful to listen to when I was so far away from home and not able to spend the holidays with my family. Listening to the two of you talk about your own fond memories of the holidays and teasing each other throughout the conversation was the next best thing to being home at the dinner table with my own family. I truly appreciate

what you gentlemen do every week and I wanted you to know that you helped this soldier get through a tough time with a smile on her face. So stay safe. and keep your own time ticking. Thank you. Well, first, I just want to say thank you for your service. That's amazing. And, you know, all our service guys and gals out there, thank you. So I have to be honest with you, Gibbs. When I first heard this voicemail, I got teary-eyed.

Yeah, it kind of choked you up a little bit. I can see that. Because here is a woman that laid it on the line for us. She's thanking us for what we're doing. we should be thanking her, which you did, rightfully so. But it did. There was something about it. She couldn't, she's been listening to the show for a long time, couldn't call because she's out there serving this country.

They just got to me a little bit. Doing what she has to do. But you know, you're right. You know, so the holidays come around and most people have great times at holidays. Some people don't, but we all have the same thing at the holidays. You sit around a table with friends or family and you hash up some. old stories, man. And you probably tell the same stories every holiday over and over again with your family, but because they're just really great stories, man. And it takes you back to a time

that makes you feel good. And, you know, not to be able to do that during the holidays, it would be a little sad. And I get it, you know. I mean, you look forward to it, you know, rouse my brothers, they rouse me up, whatever. Talk about the time that you saw Matchstick Men, but none of you can actually remember who's in it, what it's about. Well, they probably remember You just don't? It's just me, yeah. But we appreciate that voicemail a lot. Good morning, Mike and Gibby.

This is Shep from Memphis. I just mailed Mike, a Harley, Shepp from one of the local dealers in town. I was trying to find a putt-putt coin to send him to Gibby, but he had no luck finding one. And Gibby doesn't need anything anyway because he has too many female fans from what I hear on the podcast.

You guys are doing a great job. It's much appreciate to keep your own time ticket. So that's Shep that I kind of mentioned when we were doing the Patreon shoutouts. And I don't think a truer statement has ever been said on this podcast. Gibby doesn't need anything else because he's got so many female admirers, female fans, Team Gibby. I don't know about all that.

I mean, but I do appreciate and I love all the team, Team Gibby. And, man, they are the best. And I appreciate everybody. I do. No, it was awesome. I appreciate it, Shep. Thanks for the Harley. But go get me my put-putt token thing.

I know there's a put-put place down there. Go check the one out on Summer Avenue. Hi, Mike and Gibby. My name's Kiara. I am 23 living in Fort Worth, Texas. And I just wanted to call my L-Mode that I actually recently got laid off from my job and have a lot of free time and a lot of time in the car driving to interviews that are kind of far away. And through all of this nonsense, I have listed.

to your podcast nonstop. Even I've been trying to do some things for myself. Like at night, I'll take a bubble bath and drink wine in the tub, and I always have your podcast playing. So thanks for being there for me during this tumultuous time in my life. Have a great day. Thank for all you do. So just remember, always be prepared.

And when they ask you, do you love winning more or hate losing, choose the right one? Is that an interview question that you ask? Absolutely. What I was struck by is that she spends her free time just like you do, taking a bubble bath with a nice glass of chardonnay or rosé. Yeah. The sweeter, the better. The sweeter, the better.

Yeah. Now, she probably uses the good salt bath stuff or whatever. I just use Mr. Bubble because, you know, that's what I do. I got a kick out of that. But my skin is nice and soft. Hi, Viking Gibby. My name's Kelly Corby. from Minnesota. My mom and I met you at CrimeCon and I had to tell you that my, we were sitting

next to you at the, on the first night, Jack, at Jack Bar and Grill, and my, when you recognized us, when we came up to visit you on Podcast Row, my mom, all the rest of the weekend was coming up to me and going, can you believe Mike recognized me? But he recognized us. How cool is that? I think that was the highlight of her crime time. It was nice to meet you guys and stay safe and keep your own time ticking. That was very cool. And I do remember them. Yeah, you did.

You recognized them and clearly they remember you recognizing them. They do. Yeah. I think Gibbs, it's because I talked about it before, right? I keep my head on a swivel. I'm slightly paranoid. Yeah. I always sit with my back away from the exit.

And I'm always looking around to see who's around. And you were really happy with those fried pickles that you got. Man, those fried pickles were the bomb. They were actually pretty darn good. Yeah. All right, Gibbs, it's time for what we got in the mail this week. What did we get in the mail? So I got some chips.

I got a chip from Cassie in Arizona. Okay. Laura sent me three chips from Tokyo Japan. That's cool. And one of them is in T-Cat color. Really? Was that the one from Ticawa? That's not a real place.

You don't know that. No, they're from Tokyo. I know. It's the little area. It's a suburb of Tokyo. Yeah. You don't know. Scott sent me a chip from Canada.

DisCanada? For you. He sent it from Canada. But that wasn't designed to be my first chip from Canada? Yeah. I got to tell this story. Yeah, tell it. So Kendra Davidson sent me a chip.

in an envelope. I get the envelope. I can tell there's no chip in there. Yeah. I open it up and the letter says, hey, couldn't wait to send you the chip. You asked for it. Here it is. She was so happy. She said she, her dad was a Harley guy. She grew up loving Harleys. Right. Her last name is Davidson. So no chip. Yeah. I look at the envelope and on the bottom left, literally on the side of the envelope, there is a slit just big enough for that chip to come out of. Yeah. It looked like it had been cut with the K bar. But the, well, maybe it was.

So I thought it was either the postal service on one side of the other. That's going to be an international incident. Right. You know, the sad part was the letter inside that came along with it that was still there, that, you know, her great-great-grandfather, which was also at Davidson, you know, worked with the other Davison's that started. Yeah, what were their names? Yeah.

And he got this. What about Hart? Did he work with Harley too? He got this chip. Or just the Davidson. He got this chip from him. And then he went off the World War I. And he was taken prisoner.

Oh, he's taken prison. To protect the chip, he had to put the chip somewhere. He had to hide it to possess. Yes. I wonder where this story was going. And he kept it there for years. And then when he was finally released, he came back. And then he handed it down to his son, which happened to go off to World War II and the same thing.

Finally, it made its way to Kendra. Yeah. And she mailed it to me. And somebody at the postal service allegedly, maybe stole it or took it. I thought it was all that history. I know. So it was an original Davidson. Not Harley, just Davidson.

Yeah, early days. That was actually a pretty funny story. Yeah. And then we had Carla sent me a chip from Mississippi. Oh, Mississippi. So that's what we got in the mailbox. Good. So what I got in the mail this week was nothing.

Nothing. Just wanted to get that out there. But you don't need anything because you have so many female admirers and fans and Team Ghibi that you're just riding high on Cloud 9. I just love all the listeners and appreciate my team Gibby. We appreciate everyone from the kind words to the Harley Chips to the emails and the messages. It's just unbelievable. Yeah, good stuff.

All right. That is it for another episode of True Crime All the Time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.