True Crime All The Time - Robert Howard

Episode Date: August 12, 2019

Robert Howard, born in Wolfhill Ireland, was later dubbed The Wolfman. His crimes against girls and women were horrific. But, time and time again, Howard was caught for his crimes and given short sentences. He targeted girls, invaded their lives, and earned their trust as well as the trust of their families.Join Mike and Gibby as they talk about Howard's crimes. He was convicted of a great many including the murder in Britain of 14-year-old Hannah Williams. But, he is thought to have been behind the disappearance of 15-year-old Arlene Arkinson in Ireland as well. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise and donation informationSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 143 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson, Gibby. How are you? I'm good, man. How about you? I'm doing great. Yeah.

Ready to record. Cool. Another week under our belt. Another week. The numbers just keep ticking up, man. I know, man. The number of episodes when you say like 143, it just, I swear we were just doing the research. on 100 and kind of building up to a hundred. Do you remember that? I'll be like,

is this episode 1,800 and then fall asleep? Why would you be saying it? Because I'm dead at that point. Because by then you gave a little power away. Oh, okay. You're like, I'll let you say the episode number only, Gibby. Okay. How about that? That makes sense. Yeah. That makes sense. Well, I mean, it's less for me to mess up too. I mean, could I get the number wrong? Probably not. Maybe so. Didn't you say that you had that thing where you get numbers backwards sometimes? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. There you go. It could happen. You have to write it on like a big piece of paper and I have to stare at it as I read it to make sure. All right, guess we should take a minute, talk about the mass shootings. It's not something we normally do. We don't normally talk about them. There have been a number of them, right?

Sure. We just had El Paso, but we had one in our hometown of Dayton, Ohio. We did. They're all trash. And I always mourn, right, for the people who lost our lives, the people that were wounded, wherever it is in the country, in the world. And I know you do too. I'm speaking for you as well.

Right. But for two hits so close to home, it's just something I never expected, man. You know, a place that you and I have been to how, you know, who knows how many times. Yeah. The Oregon district. Plenty of times. You know, a nightlife bar type setting. So I don't know.

I mean, there's still, it's still early. There's still details to come out. Yeah. But it's obviously something that I know we'll be following closely to find out, you know, what happened, man. Yeah, what was that all about, man? We had some new Patreon supporters. All right. So let's give some shoutouts.

We had Yanna Kinnitson. Hey, Yana. Kimberly Benia. What's up, Kimberly? Michelle Skinner jumped out at our highest level. Hey, Michelle. As did Lisa Conti. Hey, Conte.

Jennifer Hone. What's up, Jennifer? What's up, Jennifer? Montevon. Which is a very cool name. It is a cool name. Michelle Young. Hey, Michelle.

Laura and David Jones. Hey, thanks, Laura and David. Nancy Stalato. Stalato. Tara Reber. Hey, Teri. Chrissy Teal. Chrissy.

Patrice Gillette jumped out at her highest level. That's awesome, Gillette. As did Janet Chosnacki. Chonaki. Yep, we had Beth Schwab. Hey, Beth. Janita Jones. Angelica.

Angelica. Don Parker. Thanks, Don. Jason Duncan. What's up, Jason. June. Jules Wilson jumped out at our highest level. That's a power name there because Jules, get it. It is.

I did it. As did Nina Illamon. Hey, Ileman. And then we had Terry Moore. What's up, Terry? So we appreciate that. A lot of new Patreon support. If we go back into the Vault Gibbs, this week we selected Ginger Lamontagni.

Lomitaji. Thanks, Ginger. Your pronunciation's probably better than mine. Probably. We had some PayPal support as well, Lexus Cochran. Hey, Lexus. Lisa Nut. What's up?

She's nutty, man. Kate Massey. Hey, good old Kate. Lynn Schengen. It looks like line. It could be lying. Line, but I think you're right. I think it's Lean Schidjan.

It's one or the other. Yeah. Lena Coonio. Coonio. And Donna Weaver. What's up, Donna? So we appreciate all this support. We really do.

It means a lot. Right, Gibbs, right now we have an episode of True Crime All Time Unsolved out. We do. I think people are really going to like this one. It's the murder and room 1046. Yeah. And it's different. I mean, obviously there, there's a murder. Yeah. That happens. Clearly. It's really around the identification of the victim. Sure. That comes into question. And then we get into some mysterious things about, you know, hotels and I mean, we're all over the place.

Yeah. It's definitely interesting. You know, and we're in Kansas City, Missouri. Hey? So there you go. So at the time that this comes out, the new podcast, the reviews are in. Yeah. It's approved. The intro's out there. You can go subscribe. If everything goes right.

Yep. It will probably only be a few days after this episode comes out that the first episode of that podcast is ready. Yeah, definitely go out and take a listen. Yeah. Let's give it a couple tries. See what you think. Yeah.

But the important thing is to subscribe. That way you get the notification. you know, as soon as the, uh, the new episode comes out. All right, man. Are you ready to get into this episode of TrueKheim all time? I'm ready. I got to give a big thanks to Lana Hyatt for her help with the writing and research for this episode.

Thanks, Lana. We are headed to Ireland this week. Irish. Irish? That was your big thing. Yeah. We're going to Irish. I was, I was waiting for something to come.

Yeah, Ireland, man. Please do not alienate our whole Irish listening. No. They know I love him. But we're talking about murderer Robert Howard, who was dubbed the Wolfman. And I think the reason why they called him that was a little strange. We might get into it here as the episode goes along. Wasn't because he wasn't shaven? Well, no, it's not because he looked like a wolf.

I really didn't see a concrete answer for why they called him the Wolfman. There's a couple of things that we'll talk about. But this is a guy that raped and murdered for all. almost 40 years. Wow. I mean, his trail of crimes spans, you know, so many years, it's unbelievable. And they still believe that he did so much more than for, you know, the things that they ultimately got him on.

So Howard was born in 1944 in Wolfhill, Ireland. Maybe one of the reasons why they called him the Wolfman. Maybe. Maybe. There's another one that you and I. like we'll talk about in a minute he was one of many children the reporting on this one's kind of all over the place could be six could be nine i'm not 100% sure it's a pack it's a pack it's a lot right he had he had quite a few siblings it's a lot of mouse to feed and i don't know gibbs for some reason

we have been talking about a lot of killers lately that have come from big family yeah we really have is that i that that's just a coincidence right has to be a coincidence i mean obviously not saying that if you came from a big family you're more inclined to become a killer at all that's that's not what i'm saying it's kind of like the military thing you know we do a lot of cases where these guys were in the military at one time or another lately we've been talking about a lot of people that that come from big family yeah yeah but really the details on his childhood they're pretty sparse his mother stayed home watch the kids. His father worked at a brick factory.

That's a job right there, man. The drill brick factory? Yeah. Yeah. Carrying around bricks? Man, I used to carry him on my shoulder, my back, up the ladder. Yeah. All right.

It's not easy. That's how you got to be so big and strong? Carrying bricks? No, but carried them. It's definitely not an easy job. It's not an easy job. And you see those guys do it, man. I'm like, first of all, I don't know how they do so many at one time.

Yeah. Not only the weight, but the balance. It's kind of amazing. It's definitely a skill. But, and this is something we talk, we've been talking about a lot. His father drank quite a bit, was most likely an alcoholic. He was also extremely strict with the children. He reportedly beat Robert. And I think for some reason, especially Robert on the regular. Now, it could be that he was violent with all his children. And it's just that Robert, went on to become a murderer. So that's what's talked about. In school, Robert was described as a pretty bright kid. But he also had an edge to him. He was also easily distracted.

He skipped school. And most of the time, when you skip school, you're likely to get into something that is probably not something you should be getting into. Yeah, you're getting a little side trouble there. Yep. And that's what happened with him. I think by the age of 12, 13 years old, he was. getting into trouble. And you know, you and I've been talking about that moment in someone's life

where, you know, things really kind of change, kind of turn for the worse and really liked it when that caller called in and she said, uh, hinge moment. And I think for Robert Howard, his hinge moment was age 1213. Yeah, I agree. He was arrested for burglary. Off the juvie, he goes. Well, they should have sent him to Juvie, you would think. Oh, they don't send him the Juvie. No, they send him to a Catholic school. It was called St. Joseph's Industrial School. Some people would say that would be same as Juvie.

Well, apparently, this place was probably worse. I think at the time, people didn't know much about it. It would come out later, right? As things often do over the years, that the priests who were running this school, they weren't very nice. Oh. It's been said. It's been alleged that the children there were often starved.

They were forced into manual labor working at farms, you know, around the area. But they were also routinely beaten with leather straps. Okay. That hurts. I mean, so far, I'm voting for juvie. I'd rather go to juvie. Yeah, you'd probably get a square mill every day. So the leather straps would be rough.

But to make it worse, would sew coins into the the leather. So bad enough to get hit with like a belt. But if you've ever been hit with the buckle, which seems to always happen when you fight with belts, somebody makes a mistake and hit you in your head with a buckle, that's not a good feeling. No. Altering the strap for a little more pain. That's sadistic, right? Yeah. Kind of like it's cool when the teachers used to take the wooden paddles and drill holes. You got to drill a hole in it to make it more aerodynamic. Yeah, get a little more sting.

But that wasn't it, right? There was also allegations of sexual abuse in, in this Catholic school. And Robert did claim at a certain point that he was a victim of this. He was there for about three or four years until he was 16 years old. And then he returned home. But it wasn't like this big welcome home, right? Robert. His father immediately kicked him out. This is a 16 year old kid who has nowhere to go. So he is essentially at 16 living on the streets. He slept in barns, tunnels. It said he even

slept in like old abandoned mine shafts. That does not sound safe. He's just looking for a roof, man. Yeah. I mean, he's looking to stay out of the elements, I think at that point. So it didn't take long for Robert to start committing burglaries again. He was stealing cars. He was, you know, burglarizing local shops. And he kept getting caught. This is the thing that you're really going to see about Robert Howard. He did a lot of really bad things in his life, much worse than stealing and stuff like that. He almost always got caught. But his punishments were so light. I mean, this is one of those, Givie, I think you're going to be upset about. You know, when you see the severity of some of the things he did and how light some of his sentences are.

So this time they sent him to another institution run by priest. This one was called St. Conlis, which apparently was one of the most brutal in Ireland. Oh, it had a reputation. It had a reputation. There was a former priest that worked there who later said that the priests were, quote, programmed with an extraordinary level of violence. He also said that most of the boys that came through there ended up totally disturbed. That was his word for disturbed.

So they had people working there that purposely just torment it the boys day in and day out. That's the only way that happens is torment. Yeah. And again, I use the word sadistic. It sounds like these people were sadistic. Now, maybe they thought they were doing the wrong. right thing and this was a good way to rehabilitate people. I don't know, but it sounds like they were pretty sadistic to me. And I don't think whatever they were doing probably got the desired effect

that they were looking for. After he was released, Robert moved to England. And my assumption is at that point, he's like, I got to get the heck out of Ireland. I can't go to England. Whatever that is, yes. England. English. That's English? English. Yeah. British. Because so far, his track record in Ireland's not good. No, maybe he'll do better in British. In British. But Putin.

In British. So at the age of 21, this is 1965. Robert committed his first sexual crime. And this is brutal. And, you know, I'm purposefully not going to go into every detail. This was a six-year-old girl. Apparently, he told this six-year-old that he was a doctor. and then he sexually abused her.

But before he left, he peed into a container beside her bed. And so I think maybe that's another reason why people may have dubbed him the wolfman. Maybe they thought he was like marking his territory. I don't know. Just like a wolf would. But that is so strange. That is really, wouldn't he, would there not be any type of DNA in that? Well, it's 1965.

Yeah, I'm just saying, you know, that's true. They weren't talking about... There was no DNA in 1965. So the wolf man can do what he wants. But bad enough that you victimized a six-year-old, then you're just going to stand there and pee into a container and then leave. Seems so odd. It's really bizarre.

It is. Until you find out that he did the exact same thing one week later, to the same girl. to the same girl. Wow. Now this time, her parents heard her screams. And they got to him before he was able to, you know, lay a hand on her. So I should have said he was going to do the same thing.

He wasn't able to. He was arrested. And he was sentenced to the local Borstal. And I had to look that up. A Borstle is a custodial institution, run by the prison system for youthful offenders. Okay. Youthful offender seems like a strange term just on its own.

But when you factor in that Robert Howard is 21 years old, that's just bizarre. It is bizarre. You would think that would end up 18 tops. Yeah, you would think at 21 years old, you're going to a big boy institution. Yeah, and you should. Not to the local kindergarten run by the, the prison system. Let's not forget the brutality of the act that he has committed and then subsequently tried

to commit again. Right. The victimization, the sexual abuse of a six-year-old child. Just the paranoia of just wondering if he's ever coming back again. I mean, it had to put her on edge. You feel bad. I mean, you just wonder at six years old, does that, you know, what type of scarring does that do? Well, you know, just like kids wonder about monsters under their bed or in their closets.

I mean, now you got a real monster. And you're wondering every time you hear something scratching at the door or the window, is it him? Yeah, she met a real life monster. Yeah. So I know for a fact, Gibbs, you're not going to be happy with how this turned out for Howard. He spent a whole whopping nine days. Nine days. Nine days.

Nine days in this borstal thing. For the total crime? Yeah, nine days. Wow. You read that and you think that's got to be a mistake, right? It's got to be nine months, nine years. No, nine days. That's messed up.

So then after the nine days, he was deported back to Ireland. And they basically said, get out. We don't want you. And maybe that was the thinking. Hey, we're not going to pay to house this guy. Right. He's Ireland's problem now. That would make more sense.

We'll give them the term we need to hold him. until we can process them to kick him back to Ireland. And they can do what they want at that point. He's not our problem anymore. He's never coming back in. That's what they might think. Yeah. But he'll be back.

You can always get across a border if you know what you're doing. In 1969, he got caught again. This time he broke into the home of a married woman and he tried to rape her. And during this assault, I guess this woman fought like hell. I mean, she fought him. She's like a tough one. Yeah, she went Ninja Warrior on this guy. She managed to break free.

She got out of her house and she started to run down the street to get away from this guy. The problem is she's naked. But you know, at that point, she doesn't care. I mean, she is like, I got to do whatever I have to do. That survival instinct kicks in. But this guy, Robert Howard, he's not phased at all by any of this. He wasn't deterred by her screaming. He wasn't deterred by the neighbors who heard her screaming and came out to see what was going on.

He just kept chasing this woman down the street. And he finally cornered her in a nearby garden and he tried to force himself on her. It's like he was not going to give up. Like he was so focused on the event that he didn't, he couldn't see what was going on around him. because by this time, like the whole neighborhood was hearing this woman scream, they had to physically pull him off her so that he could not sexually assault her. He's arrested again. This time, he got a sentence of six years, got out in three.

Of course. Even though while he was in jail, he assaulted a female staff member in jail. That should almost carry twice the normal sentence. because if you can't respect the authorities and the prison that you're held, you know what I mean? What are you going to do on the outside? Yeah. Without all the rigid rules. And no, I absolutely agree with you.

You got to respect my authority. But I honestly believe that this Robert Howard is a guy that didn't respect anything or anyone. I really don't think he did at all. In 1972, he went to a different part of Ireland, stayed at a local boarding house, under a different name was calling himself Leslie Cahill. Got a job at a factory. And I think as far as crimes go, he may have been quiet for a little while. I say maybe because that's the one thing with this guy.

I don't think there's really any way to know exactly how many crimes this guy committed. We're talking about the early 70s. We're talking about a guy that is going around using a different name. You're going to tell me that he couldn't have committed a. bunch of other crimes against women that nobody knows about? Well, you know he did. I'm sure he did. Absolutely.

I'm pretty much convinced Gibbs in every episode that we do that there are many more crimes, especially when you talk about serial killers, serial rapists, things like that. People that do the same thing over and over again, yeah, they're caught for four, five, six, seven, eight, whatever it is. Right. But they're real numbers 30. 40, 50. I don't know. That's how, you know, my unauthorized study, it's out there.

Is it published? No, it's unauthorized. That means you have not authorized it? I have not authorized it yet. For what? For consumption? For release. Publication?

Publication. Yeah. So it's really an internal memo that you wrote yourself. A napkin. Okay. Yeah. Some numbers jot it down. In 1973, he broke into the house of a 58-year-old woman.

This was, One of his neighbors. This woman woke up to find Robert Howard standing over her in her bed. He made her go upstairs. In this encounter, she ended up breaking her ankle. He forced her to give up her money. He bound. He gagged her.

And then he physically and sexually abused her for over five hours. Five hours. This guy's a monster. Wow. It's nightmarish. The whole time her ankle is broken. and she's being, you know, sexually assaulted. After Robert left, the woman was able to alert authorities.

Meanwhile, this guy just leisurely checked out of his boarding house and he headed to Dublin. Yeah. He's like, I've done this. I'm moving on, going to Dublin. To my neighbor. I should probably check out of this boarding house. Yeah. And I'm going to go to Dublin.

Police were able to trace him, though. And by the time he got there, he was arrested. Like I said, this guy did a number of horrible things that we know about. He was pretty much arrested in charge with almost all of it. But one of the officers that arrested him was quoted as saying he was very soft spoken. You would never imagine he could be violent. Yeah, there's people like that. There's a lot of people like that.

I actually think there's a lot of killers like that. Yeah. Now, one could be sitting right here. It could be. You are by and large pretty soft spoken. Yeah. I myself, not so much. Nope.

But I think it's the soft spoken people you got to worry about. You get it out. Maybe the soft spoken keep it in. Right. It needs to come out. That's why I worry about you. I lay all my cards on the table, man. You know where I stand.

I'm a mystery. This time he was sentenced to 10 years. So we are working our way up the ladder into more what we would think of as more appropriate sentences at least. Yeah. About time. A psychiatrist who interviewed. Howard, while he was incarcerated, said that he too was surprised by this guy's what he called

extremely courteous demeanor. He was just a very nice man. Just a good guy. Just a good guy. I actually called him refined. But he also said, you know what? I had seen his record. And I knew how dangerous this guy really was. This psychiatrist was quoted as saying, I sensed and feared that he had already killed someone. I knew his violence was likely to get far worse, especially towards women. I believed him to be an explosive psychopath. This guy wanted him sent to jail for an indefinite period. So he got 10 years, but you have this psychiatrist basically saying,

I don't care about the 10 years. Don't let this guy out. He is going to continue to perpetrate violence. against women, you need to hold on to it. But I don't think that made any difference in the courts. Robert Howard was released in 1981. So he did roughly what, probably seven of the 10 years? Yeah, rough.

It's not a cakewalk to do seven years, but... He got off easy for all the... I think when you add up what he's done already. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with you. So when he got out, he moved to a flat in Dublin. then in 1983 he got married. What a lucky bride she shall be.

So he's like 39 years old at this point. Got married when he was 39. And I know Gibbs you're being facetious when you say that, but it's so true, right? You imagine this woman had no idea who this guy really was. If she would have, she wouldn't have married him. The relationship only lasted a few years. But by all accounts, it was hell on this woman. I think Robert Howard treated this woman.

And I don't even know her name. Couldn't find it. I think he treated her about as miserable as you can treat a human being. Sure. In every way that he possibly could. I just think it was in this guy's makeup. For whatever reason, he didn't like women. He enjoyed hurting women.

I just, I don't get it. Now, luckily, she was able to get out of this relationship alive. And I do think it's lucky. Extremely lucky. Knowing what this guy's already done and knowing what he's going to do. I think you have to count her as lucky, not to have lived through those few years, because I'm sure those were very rough, but to have been able to get out. In 1988, Robert was sentenced to 15 months in Ireland for larceny.

He was released in 1990. Then he moved to Northern Ireland, spent some time in. an alcoholism rehab center before moving on to Derry. And it was around this time. He abducted a woman in her 20s, kept her captive for multiple weeks. And the whole time, he sexually assaulted this woman. To the point, Gibbs, it resulted in her becoming pregnant. So as far as I know, this is the only child that Robert Howard fathered.

Right. But imagine a 20. something year old woman living through this horrific ordeal for weeks then to later find out that she was pregnant with this guy's child yeah this jerk it's unimaginable yeah now i don't know what happened to the child i don't have any of that information i just i feel really bad for that that woman to have to go through something like that but i feel bad for all the women involved in this case this guy treated women like dirt essentially. Treat him worse than dirt.

Worse than dirt. You wouldn't do that to dirt. No. And these are the women, the girls he didn't murder. Yeah. Because we haven't even got to that part yet. In 1993, Robert met Priscilla Gayhan, a 16-year-old girl, met her through a friend. And one day they were talking and Robert was able to convince this young girl to come to his place. and he was able to do it on the pretense that a friend of theirs,

this was a guy that this girl was really attracted to, was at his house. So he's making up this story. Of course, the guy's not there, right? Instead, Priscilla endured two days of torture. He held her prisoner. She was bound and gagged. And he repeatedly sexually assaulted her.

And the details around this one, they're just absolutely. horrific. You know, apparently he made a noose that he kept around her neck and he attached it to a hanger in the wardrobe

in the room where she was being held. Yeah. Every time she resisted, he tightened the noose. Really? And threatened to kill her. Do it again.

I'm going to tighten it just a little bit more. Yeah. So again, I would call that sadistic. Go back to the time that he spent with, with some of these priests and these institutions. Did he learn something there that he then later used in committing his crimes? I don't know.

Maybe. Most likely. On the third morning of this girl being held captive, while Robert was asleep, she managed to get upstairs. And she got into this room that he had. Apparently it was filled with cages. Really?

Birds. Birds. bird cages with birds in them. She found a window, opened it, and she just hurled herself out of this window from the second story. That's still better than what she was going through. That's how badly she wanted to escape this house. She's like, I'll take my risk.

She hit the ground. She got up, ran around the corner to the police station. So I think something's pretty safe to say. I don't think this guy had any fear of the police. Now, I don't get me wrong. don't think he wanted to be caught. Right. But he lived right by the police station. He lured a young girl back to his place, tortured her for two days. Wow. Oh, it's because he knows he's going not have to worry about doing too much time for it all. I think that might be part of it. I mean,

if you're willing to take a risk, if you know that the consequence. Yeah, is going to be low, right? I mean, it's just like gambling when you know your odds are in your favor. Yeah, I think there's something to that, right? The slaps on the wrist, thinking that you can do something and get away with it. Plus, he has no, what's the word? I mean, he has no fear. I mean, he's chasing down that one victim, naked, down the road, trying to get on top of her, and people have to pull him off. Clearly, he just doesn't, he just doesn't care. Yeah, one of the other, either he's not worried about it or he's not thinking about it. He just, it's just not even in his realm of thought. No, I think he, I'm kind of thinking he just doesn't think about it. I think something clicks in his head and he's just focused in on what he's doing.

Well, it could be tunnel vision, right? Sometimes, you know, you get that tunnel vision. Now, most of us, it's not around sexually assaulting somebody. No. But for people like this, maybe it is, right? You're so focused on this one thing. thing. Yeah.

To the exclusion of everything else going on. Yeah. It's kind of what it sounds like. And we see that a lot in different activities. Like, you know, you would say that's how I am on my phone sometimes. Well, you would think of like an elite athlete. Yeah. That's, they're so focused.

I hate to compare this guy to an elite athlete, but I think people will know what I'm saying. No, it's like when we get that really good pizza from that place, you are focused and you know how to kill that pizza. you love it man i do and you won't even let me get in on it again i hate to compare that to what we're talking about but i think people get the idea yeah absolutely and unfortunately robert howard in this case he was right not to be that fearful of the police because he was caught i mean obviously this girl's right around the corner she said here i'll take you right there yeah me walk you down there i'll deliver him to you yeah he was arrested ultimately

ended up with a suspended sentence. This is crazy. I'm telling you. But this is what he did. He argued that this girl, Priscilla, had consented to the sex. He admitted that it was wrong. He knew she was a minor.

And they essentially let him go on that argument. And I think, you know, aside from what this 16 year old girl went through, I think for the rest of her life, It was tough knowing because she later talked about it, how hard it was to try to get the police to believe her account that she had been abducted, she had been, you know, imprisoned and sexually assaulted. And obviously with the ending or the outcome, they really didn't believe her.

I mean, that's quite obvious. Yeah, no, no, definitely went his way. But we have to back up just a little bit. We know how that ultimately ended up. up with the with him getting a suspended sentence but while robert was out on bail awaiting the outcome right awaiting the trial right he met arline arkinson arline arkinson was born april fourth 1979 she had lived a pretty tough life her mom died when she was 11 years old and she had seven brothers and sisters big family so they all lived with their dad and her dad struggled with

alcoholism and Arlene ended up kind of getting in with the wrong crowds. Oh, so she's going to skip school probably. Skip school. She engaged in different types of activities. I think most of which a lot of people would call, you know, risky behavior. In 1993, when she was only 14 years old, her brother-in-law raped her and was sent to jail. So like I said, she grew up very tough. She had a hard life.

So she probably just go off every now and then, just to get away. Yeah. Run away, as we would say. Yeah, I think her family did say that, you know, she had a habit of, you know, going missing, for lack of a better term, right, she would go off, but she would always come back. And she was pretty good about calling or at least letting people know where she was within a reasonable amount of time. So they didn't get too worried.

just 10 days prior to her disappearance that we're going to talk about, her brother-in-law that sexually assaulted her was released from jail. Oh, that's good. He's like, hey, I'm back. Which, again, that happened in 1993. Arlene goes missing in 1994. So that gentleman did not do a lot of time. No.

For sexual assault. Right. A minor. A minor at that. And again, Gibbs. I'm not bagging on Ireland. I'm not bagging on England. We see that here in the States and in the cases that we cover,

especially back from the 70s. Yeah, I should call Kay over there in Ireland and give her a hard time about this, but she'd probably just come back and say, hey, you know, how about your American prisons? How is that working out, Gibbs? Yeah, we don't have a great track record of, you know, really kind of holding people accountable.

Now, I think today it's a little different. And the sentences are much different. Much, yeah. When you're talking 60s and 70s, tons of cases that we've done here in the United States where people, you know, slap on the wrist, slap on the wrist. And it just progressively got worse until they ultimately killed somebody. I think it really took shape for me when we did the Lake and Ing murders and everything. They just got slapped on the wrist when they were younger, when they should have gotten some pretty severe time.

And then I just started seeing it again and again. and it just was just really disappointing, man. Yeah, those guys were, were bad, no doubt. But I just, I think, like with Robert Howard, right, they became emboldened over time because they were able to get away with some really heinous stuff. So what's the lesson you're being taught? It's okay.

You'll get away with it next time, too. Well, you used to be, don't do the crime if you can't do the time. But clearly, we're like, hey, go ahead and do the crime because the time ain't very long at all. And the risk is worth it. Yeah. To them. So it's 1994. Arlene, it was 15 years old to time.

She was 5'4, blue eyes with fair hair. On the night of August 14th, she and her friends wanted to go out and dance to a dance place. So they got Robert Howard to drive them. And this was not uncommon. Arlene a lot of times went out to dance with her friends and a lot of times. and a lot of times she would get her new friend, and I'm using that loosely in air quotes, Robert to drive them.

He had done this on multiple occasions. And this was the thing about Robert Howard. You know, over time, he would work himself into a family, you know, ingratiate himself with members of the family of people that he would later on victimize. he would gain their trust but keep in mind this whole time this guy is on bail for kidnapping

rape and and abduction and however many other charges of a 16 year old girl got a big old laundry list but nobody knew any of that right nobody in this family arline arkinson didn't know any of that yeah there was no uh hey before you go somewhere of this person read this check check out his profile on line. So it was Arlene and her two friends. They were in Robert's car. They were on the way home from dancing. And the last time that Arlene was seen was after her friends were dropped off. This was around 2.30 a.m. Now at first, her friend said that Robert dropped Arlene off first, which, you know, Gibbs, of course, provides Robert with an alibi. Yeah. A pretty good alibi. for Arlene's disappearance.

I mean, obviously he cannot kill her if he's with her friend. Now, the friends later recanted their statement saying that they were made under duress. They all changed their story, saying that Robert actually dropped them off first. And that was the last time they ever saw Arlene. So that's the crux of this piece, right? Robert Howard is the last person to be seen with Arlene. Arkansas. He was arrested on suspicion of kidnapping and murder. And over the course of two days, police questioned him 13 different times. Okay. But he was not charged with anything. He was arrested,

not charged, which is a little bit strange. I think when, you know, when you view this situation, it's kind of strange, man, with this guy being out on bail for sexually assaulting a 16-year-old. Yeah, I agree. Because, you know, when you're, when you're, you're. when you're out on bail, you have conditions, right? So he had conditions, number one, he wasn't supposed to be in the company of minors at all. And he's more in the company of a minor. Sure. He also wasn't allowed to be out past a certain time. And I guarantee at 2.30 a.m. is way past that time. I also think it's very strange for a 15 year old to be out at 2.30 in the morning. But that's a whole different subject. I mean, you would think Gibbs, the police, had to have looked at all of this. And I'm sure they did. But ultimately, they decided they didn't have enough to charge him with anything related

to the disappearance of Arlene Arkansas. Meanwhile, they're still looking for her. It was reported that there were 92 different searches organized for Arlene. But she was never found, nor was her body ever recovered. Now, there was a story that came out later that, intimated that she may have told friends that she was pregnant on the night of her disappearance. Okay.

And to me, you have to ask the question, where does the brother-in-law fit into this thing, right? The guy was released 10 days before this girl disappeared. Is that just a huge coincidence? I don't know. I don't know either. I can tell you, the community strongly believed that it was Howard, that he was guilty. of doing something bad to Arlene. Yeah.

So much so that they hounded him completely out of town. And he moved to County Donegal where he started living, kind of the way he did back when he was a teen on the streets, but he was living in a van. Living in a van, down by the river. The next year in 95, he's living in Scotland. That's until a local newspaper did a story on his past. And like immediately, the whole town,

came out and they basically drove him out. Those cots are tough, man. Do not mess with him. They're like, you ain't gone to die here. I mean, when William Wallace shows up at your door and says, get the heck out, you better get the heck out. That's exactly right. Don't mess with haggis.

Haggis the dish? No, haggis, the guy in that town. He's rough. He's tough. But they not only forced him out of the town. They essentially forced him out of Scotland altogether. So he moved on to London, England. And that's when he met, through a friend of a friend,

14-year-old Hannah Williams. And again, Gibbs, he spent a lot of time, basically inserting himself in different ways into this young girl's life. Got to know her, got to know her family. 14-year-old. A 14-year-old. Okay. It was reported that they often took walks together with her dogs.

There's even a video, I guess, that he took of her snuggling with her dogs in his house. Oh. So I don't know how he did this, but he essentially got into her life. So he started befriending her and her circle and... And her family, too. Earned the trust. And that's where I can't say anything bad about this family. That's not what I'm trying to do because I'm sure they have a lot of guilt.

Oh, sure. But at some point, do you not say... you know, why is this 40-some-year-old, 50-year-old guy, however old he is at this point, hanging around with our 14-year-old daughter. Yeah. To me, that is strange. On a regular basis. On a regular basis.

Like, hey, I came over and needed a couple of sugar. Oh, hey, Hannah, how you doing? All right, see you. Right. You know, hey, come with me and stay over my place for a few hours. Yeah. And again, I want to be very careful because I never want to, you know, cast blame. on the family. They're hurting enough. Absolutely. It was on April 21st, 2001 that Hannah went

missing. And right from the start, didn't seem to be any suspects. Police didn't, you know, have anybody on their radar for her disappearance. One of the things that really bothered me, Gibbs, about this case was how little media coverage Hannah's disappearance got. And a lot of has been made about it over the years. People have accused the media of not giving Hannah the same type of coverage as other girls that went missing because they were all from middle class family. And Hannah, I think they thought, or maybe that was the case, I don't know, came from a lower socioeconomic type family. So didn't deserve the coverage. That's kind of how, almost how it seemed.

You know, she lived with her mom. Her mom was a, it was a single mother. They didn't have a lot of money. Add on top of that, the fact that, you know, Hannah had a history of running off.

I don't know what other things she was into, but whatever it was, the media looked at her and said, it's not worth our coverage. Right. But these other girls, they've gone missing. They come from great family.

We're going to splash their names all over the paper and the TV. I just had to have a really hard time with that. Yeah, it is tough. Kind of like we talk about, I have a hard time with the disappearance or the, you know, the murders of young African-American girls,

not getting the same coverage as white girls. Just like we talked about on the Patreon episode of the freeway phantom. Yeah, we went through that, yeah. In March of the next year, 2002, a detective decided to read, reopen the case of Arlene Arkansas. And this time, he made Robert Howard the chief suspect.

And it was just four days later after they reopened that case that the body of Hannah Williams was found. In this time, Gibbs, it received a lot of news coverage. Now, it was said that the reason it did was because there was another young girl missing at the same time. I don't know. That young girl, Daniel Jones, she was never found. And it may be a case that we cover, you know, on unsolved.

She went missing while waiting at a school bus stop. You know, that's like a nightmare for a lot of parents is the school bus, you know, sending your kid off to or not showing up when they get off the bus. And then they go missing because of that. I know that's a fear that a lot of parents have in the back of their head. Yeah, I was lucky when the kids were little, the bus stop was in sight. of our big back window. But I'll tell you what, man, every day I would stand there.

And I would make sure they got on the bus. Yeah. And then, you know, usually my wife was home by the time they got home. She would make sure that they got off. And then, you know, you run around to the front door because they're walking around a corner. It's just I was always really leery of that. Well, you do live in a pretty rough neighborhood. That's rough here, man.

It's so rough. So rough. Well, as we know, it doesn't matter. neighborhood you live in? It doesn't. That's the thing, man. You can be in the worst or the best in it. Guess what? They want you. They're going to get you. Yeah. It is a scary thing. So Hannah's decomposed body was found wrapped in a blue tarp at a cement factory in Kent. Investigators knew she was bound because there was a portion of the rope used to bind her. And I guess Gibbs, they were doing some type of excavation at this work site when a worker saw, a leg bone sticking up out of the ground. We've talked about that before. How brutal to find a dead body and especially a young girl or, you know, a child. That would stay with you forever, I think.

I don't think he'd ever get rid of that. And I know we're flipping back and forth a little bit between Hannah Williams and Arlene Arkansas, but the timelines are weaving in and out between the two. Because on May 24th, 2002, this is a couple of months after the discovery of Hannah Williams' body, police formally charged Robert Howard with the murder of Arlene Arkansas. And then they weave together again because, you know, the police are investigating Robert Howard for the murder of Arlene Arkansas. They're also looking at him for the murder of Hannah Williams. and it was in October of 2002 that the investigators in the Hannah Williams case received a file of evidence that really put them on his tail. So ultimately he was arrested for both.

But he went on trial for the murder of Hannah Williams first. It was a year later, October 2003. And he was found guilty of the rape and murder of 14 year old Hannah Williams. He was sentenced to life in prison. During the trial, they brought up his past. They also talked about the involvement that they believed he played in Arlene's disappearance. There was testimony from, you know, some of her family members in the trial of Hannah Williams. Priscilla, the woman that was held captive by Robert Howard for three days, she testified,

the one that police didn't believe back then. Now they believe her. Well, the jury believed her, believed all of it. So he's convicted. He's going to spend the rest of his life in prison. The strange thing about this in, you know, 2003 and even, you know, years later, none of this could be reported in the paper because of the charges that Howard was facing in the disappearance of Arlene Arkansas. And I always find that interesting. Gibbs, you know, in other countries, the ban that they have on reporting certain things.

Right. You know, we don't seem to have that here at all. No. You know, there have been cases that have been either near the border of Canada or the United States. People in Canada, they don't know what's going on because their papers can't publish it. But you cross the border. I forget what case it was we talked about. People were literally crossing the border to get the news on it.

The news because their papers couldn't report on it. That might have been Hamulka and Bernardo. Might have been. I think. Yeah. Robert eventually went on trial in June 2005 for the disappearance of Arlene Arkansas. But the prosecution had a lot going against them. You know, first of all, it was determined that Priscilla's testimony, pretty much probably

the same thing that she testified in Howard's trial for the murder of Hannah Williams, they determined to be prejudicial. So they didn't use it. Yeah. How could it not be prejudicial? I mean, she's telling about. this man who abducted her. It's going to prejudice someone against him.

They also couldn't bring up the fact that he was already in prison. Yeah. For Hannah. For life. Yeah. For the murder of Hannah Williams. So you go through this whole trial, the jury has no knowledge whatsoever of these very heinous crime that this guy committed in the past.

And there really wasn't any evidence that are. Arlene Arkinson was actually dead. She hadn't come home. Yeah. Nobody knew where she was, but her body was never found. So they didn't have that. They don't have a lot. Most of the things they have was taken away from the present to the jury.

I agree with you. And the jury found in a 10 to 2 majority verdict that he was not guilty. So Robert Howard was acquitted in this trial. And that's different here, right? In the states, it needs to be unanimous. in a trial like that, a criminal trial. But I guess over there, it just majority wins. Wow.

So it could have been 6-4, either way. Now, for us, I think that would be a mistrial, a hung jury. Right. Right. They can't decide because even if you have one holdout, it's a hung jury. Yeah. Can't even imagine what the parents are going through, what the other victims' parents are going through hearing this.

Devastation. Yeah. It would be devastating. to know that this man was reportedly the last person seen with your daughter before she disappeared. You've got her friends are saying that. Now, they had flip-flopped, and that probably is not great when presented to a jury. Yeah. That initially they said he dropped Arlene off first.

So again, the prosecution had a lot going against them, but they firmly believe that it. that it was this guy. Yeah, and you mentioned the family. I think Hannah's mother was particularly horrified at the verdict to find out that he had been found not guilty related to, you know, Arlene Arkansas. Yeah, even Priscilla was very outspoken about it. You know, she went to the media too. Oh, she was ticked.

Yeah. I think she was still ticked back from, you know, her experience and the fact that nobody believed her. I think she was probably upset that she wasn't allowed to testify. But ultimately, she's ticked because she felt like this guy got away with another murder, that he was not being held accountable for. But it doesn't end there. In 2012, an abandoned shack that used to belong to Howard was searched. They found two specimens of blood, but neither of them belonged to Arlene Arkansas. They also weren't in any of the national databases.

So on the 20th anniversary of Arlene's disappearance, authorities asked the public for help. They wanted any woman that was in his flat, 49A Main Street, which at that point had been demolished. At any time in the past, they wanted them to make contact with police. I think they knew Gibbs. There were women out there. that had most likely had some horrible experiences at the hands of Robert Howard, but maybe they had never come forward.

Yeah. So they were saying, hey, we need you. We need to hear your story. New blood, man. It could be beneficial to, you know, their investigation. And then you talk about the coroner's inquest. And we mentioned this quite a bit when we're talking about cases over in Europe, especially.

this thing was delayed for years and years. It was set to begin in May of 2014. It's 20 years after Arlene disappeared. It's a long time. And even then, the police asked for a postponement. So I think the public was upset about that and the families were upset about that. I don't believe it normally takes that long for the coroner's inquest to happen. In the meantime, Robert Howard died in October of 2015 from natural causes.

He was 71 years old. They'd still not done this inquest. And the man died. Yep. So you know what? You can't ask him any questions. No. Not that he would have probably told the truth anyway, but maybe they could have tripped him up.

It's just mind-boggling that, and I don't know if it was internal squabbling. I don't know exactly what it was that caused it. to drag on so long. It wasn't officially opened until February of 2016. So they're holding this inquest in Belfast. And, you know, they're talking about everything, right? His previous history, how extremely dangerous this guy was. They had people come from prison, people that had spent time with Robert Howard in prison,

talk about statements that he allegedly made where he, admitted to killing Arlene Arkansas. Yeah. In all of these conversations, Gibbs, they were reported to police over about a three-year period, 2009 to 2012. But again, you're going to wait seven years, at least from the beginning of hearing these statements, to actually have the inquest. And in the meantime, the guy dies in prison.

And these statements, they're very incriminating. Apparently, he talked about how he got away with murder. he told another inmate that he had to bind Arlene because she was very strong. Yeah. He also talked about drugging her, choking her, and burning her body. Yeah. Very incriminating. Very specific.

Now, these are secondhand statements. True. But my thought is that they would have been able to question him during the inquest. Yeah, I'm no expert on these coroner's inquest because they're foreign tests, literally. Right. Foreign tests. But I do think it's one of the things that really rubbed people the wrong way. They just messed around for so many years when they could have done this thing 18 years earlier.

Yeah. 16, 18, 19. I don't know. They needed to get on it. I don't know how long they normally take, but I know it's not 20 years. No. I think they happen, you know, somewhat quickly. And in the other cases that we've done, and that's really all I have to go by.

But I think it was a problem that Robert Howard had died. They couldn't, you know, cross-examine him. They couldn't ask him about these statements that these other inmates said that he made. You know, even though the police and the prosecutors thought these statements were significant, in the end, they just weren't enough, right? there weren't enough to meet the threshold to overturn the acquittal. And I think that's something different too, right? Here in the U.S., if you get acquitted for murder, that is it.

You're done. Yeah. I don't care if you come out and say that you did do it. Yeah. They're not going to run you back through. Can't do it. But apparently, in a coroner's inquest, they can overturn an acquittal and they can retry you. But in this case, they just didn't feel like they medall.

they met the the evidentiary threshold. But as we're wrapping up this case, I think what gets to me, it's a couple things. You know, we just talked about the coroner's inquest, why did it take so long? But really, it's one of those things that we've covered in a lot of other cases. And that's how the judicial system hands out these slaps on the wrist. Yeah. To the same person over and over for what you and I. and most people listening believe are unbelievably horrific things.

And they're like, oh, just don't do that no more. No. It doesn't work. No. Proven not to work. And then somehow everyone is surprised that this individual eventually kills someone. And I think, you know, you can play the what if game all day, but you have to wonder if some of these girls would not have died had Robert Howard received. some harsher sentences.

Yeah. I think you have to ask that question. And again, like I said, I'm not bagging on any country because we have a history of doing it here in the United States as well. It's not a perfect science. Right.

And, you know, nobody can say for sure this is the sentence that it's going to take. You can't put everybody away for life for every crime. We'd have a bunch of people in prison for life. Oh, yeah.

But to sexually violate a six-year-old, and get what, two years, a year, two years, whatever it was. Those are things I just can't wrap my head around. Doesn't make any sense. You know, crimes against children, crimes against women. And then to have a very long history of it. Eventually, you have to say, no, this is it for you. You're done.

We're not letting you back out to victimize another child, to victimize another girl, another woman. Yeah, this was no first. No. I get, you know, again, first offenses, I get that. They're usually lighter. The person has no record. But, you know, you get to offense 7, 8, 9, 10, and they're all centered around the same thing. Violence against children and women. Eventually, you have to say enough is enough. Yeah. You got to say, you're going bye, bye. But that's it. That's the case of Robert Howard. For a person that is not very well known, he was a very, very, bad guy. Yeah. He got away with a lot of stuff because of the system. But he got caught for a lot of stuff. No, he did. Yeah. I mean, it was bad. When you say he got away, he got off light. He got a flight. Yeah. Yeah. Because he got caught almost every time that we know of. Oh, yeah, yeah. I'm sure there's a lot of things he did that he never got caught for it. But he got caught a lot. It wasn't like he was really good at getting away with

things. Yeah, but he just. He just ran him through the system and let him out. I mean, that one time, nine days, you know, Nine days. Nine days. I mean. That's like a Caribbean cruise. Nine days. Yeah. Well, we talked about it, right?

So did they, there in England, think they were being smart by saying, we're just going to deport you back to Ireland? Oh, yeah. Well, what happened? He came back to England and murdered a 14-year-old girl. They just needed to find a way to keep them from coming back, which they didn't do. We got voicemails. You want to check those out? Let's hear the voicemails.

Hi, Mike and Gibby. My name's Kate, and I just listened to your most recent episode. And you guys were talking about the death penalty and what's a slam dunk case and all of that. And I just wanted to say, I feel like I'm in kind of an unusual position because I'm 100% opposed to the death penalty. I don't believe in it for any circumstances at all. And also, my mother happened to be the victim of a homicide. So it seems a little awkward, I guess, because I can see where the families are coming from who want the death penalty for their family members' murderer. But on the other hand, I just believe in life so much that I can't imagine, you know, I don't believe in an eye for an eye. Just because you killed someone doesn't mean that you should die.

And not only that, but, you know, what is a slam-dunk case? So, yeah, I just thought I'd share since your most recent episode made me think of it. Thanks. Bye. Well, we appreciate that voicemail a lot. I mean, I think it's one of those things, Gibbs, that I don't think, I think there's a lot of people that don't believe in the death penalty. I don't think that is that strange. Now, I think what she's referring to is the fact that, you know, her mother was a victim of

homicide. Maybe she feels like that's a little different that she would not be in favor of the death penalty having lost her mother in that way. But I, you know, I respect it. Yeah, absolutely. I think everybody's entitled to their opinion on the subject. And, you know, whether you believe in it or not, I think Gibbs you and I both respect that choice. Yeah. You know, we talk about the death penalty a lot. because, let's face it, in a lot of the cases that we do, especially here in America, people get death. They get the death sentence a lot of the time. But to actually be in that situation to have lost a family member to homicide and to not believe

in the death penalty or be against it, I think to me, that really shows what she believes in. Right. Because a lot of people could just take aside one way or the other. But when you've been thrust into that situation, when you've had to, you've had to, have lived through it to make your choice, you know. That's what you believe in. You're pretty staunch on that. Hi, Mike.

Hi, Gibby. This is Jess from Salt Lake City. I just want to tell you how much I love your show. I've been emailing with Mike and about some dark things. And he's just been super wonderful. I definitely team T-Cat, but I do have a fish called Gibby. I want to say thank you so much for the stickers. That was such a nice thing to do.

And keep up the good work and keep your own time kick. and fellas love you guys like handmade those stickers man so jess all the good stuff came from me that's gibby speaking no she she even said it she's emailing with me she got the stickers from me but do you have a fish name gibby no but i have a fish called wanda yeah there you go good movie man that is a good movie but that's the right answer right team t-cat that's awesome no issues there no except gibby has issues Anytime somebody doesn't specifically say their team Gibby. I may or may not write their name down. Hi, guys.

Lena Jenkins, Stockholm, Sweden here. Love your part, the best, excellente. A Swedish crime tip for you. Stikmoudetti, Askechusund. Could not find a word for stick mood in English. It means murder and then dismembered. In 2014, John A Henningson murdered and dismembered her rival. Louis Linde,

Linde, sorry, due to a jealousy drama. A heinous crime and my tip. Thank you for a lovely podcast. Again, love you guys. Bye-bye. Hey-do. Hey, Dolv. What does that mean?

Later. He even said the later in like a Swedish accent. I did, didn't I? Okay. Yeah. No, it's a good suggestion. Make sure we write that down. the, some of the, the words for murdering

and dismemberment, I didn't understand, but, yeah, I don't, I don't know. It's beyond my grasp of language.

Comprehension. Because Gibbs, unlike the rest of the people in the world. Yeah. We don't speak other languages. No. And I think it's kind of sad.

I mean, honestly, if you think about it, I mean, it really is. Yeah, you're, I think we're lazy. Yeah.

In some respects. I just know you can talk to Swedish people and they really like talking to you in really good English. Oh, all the people we talk to, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Germany. They all speak English. Canada. Canada, England. They all speak English.

Yeah, they got it down. Hi, Mike and Gibby. This is Amber Brown. And Gibby, you're a genius. Amber is actually a brown color. My grandmother has always said, your name is awful because it's like a day. dirty ashtray. So Gibby, you're right. So thank you

for acknowledging that I am a brown-brown. Love your show. Thank you. Oh, we love Amber. We love our Patreon folks. Double Brown. So I heard this voicemail Gibbs and I thought, I'm wrong. I thought I'm wrong. But then I thought I'm going to

look it up on Google. The one time you decide to look at Google. Amber can be brown, but by and large, it's yellow. Does it say buy and large? No, it says, I think it said 70% of amber is yellow. And then there's a red amber, there's a blue amber. Yeah.

There's actually nothing called a brown amber, but there's a black amber that looks brown. Okay. So let's just say we're all right and that I'll still say you're a genius. Of course. I just can't say I'm wrong. Amber weighs of grain. Grain? What color is grain?

Not brown. Grain is brown. Tan. Weak color. We're at best. What we at, Surin Williams? I think you and I have different interpretations of brown. Yeah.

And obviously there are different colors of brown. You think lemons are brown at this point. No. I'm just saying. But anyway, I got such a kick out of that voicemail that there's something in me that said, you know what? I just got to look that up. It's a competitive edge.

Yeah, a little bit. All right, Gibbs. We got mailbag. Donna Weaver from Canada. She sent us some really cool stuff from the Coast Guard. She's in the Coast Guard. Coast Guard, huh? Yeah.

Send us mugs, beanies, all kinds of cool stuff. What are beanies, man? You know, like that the thing you wear on your hat with a little pom-pom on the top. Oh, a toboggin? Yeah, like a toboggin, sure. Toboggin. Beanie, toboggan. Yeah, Coast Guard, that's cool, man.

And then Stephen Leto sent us some beef jerky. Okay. But he also sent us some cool key chains with our names on them and like our family crests. Really? Pretty cool. I've never seen my family crest. Well, now you have it. I actually have a family crest. There you go. That's cool. All right. Gibson. The Gibby. Oh, the Gibson.

Son of Gibson. Son of Gibs. Thank you. That's it, Gibbs for the show. You got anything else? Yeah, may you die in bed at the age of 95 by a jealous wife? That's an Irish saying. Is it? That's an Irish saying. I just gave it to you. Do I want to be 95? Oh, man. In bed. Kill by a jealous wife. Oh, that means I'm doing something.

that I shouldn't be doing? Is that what the implications are? I guess. It's an Irish thing. All right. Well, there's a lot of Irish things. Yeah. All right, Gibb, so that's it. That's it for another episode of True Crime All Time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.