True Crime All The Time - Rod Matthews

Episode Date: February 5, 2024

Rod Matthews was once the youngest inmate in the state of Massachusetts. When he was just 14 years old, he beat another teen boy to death “just for the heck of it.” Rod planned the murder for at least a month, and he targeted Shaun Ouilette, a fellow freshman who was new to town and didn’t have many friends. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Rod Matthews. Rod claimed that he had a bad childhood that began after his father left the family. He also claimed that he was obsessed with starting fires. But, according to Rod, it was after watching "Faces of Death" that he became obsessed with wanting to know what it was like to kill someone. Experts disagreed on Rod's mental health status and whether or not he knew right from wrong at the time of the murder.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 369 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson, give me, how are you? Hey, I'm doing okay. How about you? I'm doing very well. You and I just got done recording our weekly Patreon thing that we do. We did.

And we played this little game where I had you try to guess celebrities and whether they were born in the year that I was born or the year that you were born. And I nailed it. It was a little bit harder than I think you thought it would be. Yeah, I got mixed up a little bit. And it's easy to do. For me, I think it's hard to tell how old people are. Speaking of Patreon, let's go ahead and give our shoutouts. We had Amy May jump out at our highest level.

Hey, Amy, thank you. Wade Woodard. What's going on, Woodard? Jessica L. Hey, Jessica. Katrin Eynard's daughter. Ah, thanks, Katrin. Joey Bales.

There's Joey. Jane Hamlin. Well, thanks, Jane. Allison Clark. Well, hello, Allison. Leah Montgomery jumped out at our highest level. Oh, that's awesome, Leah. Nurse Maria.

Love a nurse. Okay. Any nurse or Maria? Just a girl who loves giraffes jumped out at their highest level. Oh, you know what? I love giraffes too. And last but not least, Genevieve plant. Hey, there's Genevieve.

And then if we go back into the vault, this week we selected Kimberly Manley. That's awesome. Thanks, Kimberly. Yeah, I appreciate all the support. The new Patreon support, a continued support gives right now on Unsolved. We have an episode out on Mallory Manning and we're headed to New Zealand. And this is New Zealand's or at least one of their most high profile unsolved murder.

It's really a brutal case. Yeah, it was definitely a brutal case. And for those that don't normally like Unsolved, this is one to listen to because although technically it is unsolved there are a lot of people who believe they knew who did it so yeah check it out crime con is coming up quick it's the last week of may i think into june heads into june but if you're planning on going make sure you go to crimecon dot com use our code teacat tcatt that'll get you 10% off your standard badge and you're going to be dusting off your cowboy hat and your cowboy boots yeah it's in nashville we're going to have some

fun so we'd love to see you out there we'll have a meet up like we do every year absolutely all right buddy are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time i'm ready we're talking about rod matthews rod matthews was once the youngest inmate in the state of Massachusetts. When he was just 14 years old, he beat another teen boy to death just for the heck of it. That's a scary thought. It's a very scary thought. You know, murders are scary.

Any murder. The reasons behind murders are scary. But to me, when someone says, I killed someone just because I wanted to or I wanted to feel like what it was like. I mean, those are scary. It really, really is. Rod planned the murder for at least a month and he targeted Sean Olett, a fellow freshman who was new to town and didn't have many friends. Sean Rennie O'Lette was born on January 28th, 1972.

He was only 14 years old when he was murdered. Sean was born in California. But his parents soon moved back home to Massachusetts. They divorced when Sean was four. Sean's mother, Gene Quinn, spoke to the Canton citizen about her son. She said Sean reminded her of Opie from the Andy Griffith Show. Do you remember Opie? Just a good old boy?

Never meaning no harm? I thought you were going to go into the Dukes of Hazard theme song there. Of course I remember Opie. I used to watch the Andy Griffith show all the time. And Opie was kind of the, you know, all-a-man. American, wholesome kid, right? Oh, yeah. He'd get in the little troubles now and then.

They weren't too serious, just enough so, you know, that his dad could come in and help him. Paul? Paul. Yeah. Andy. And Opie went on to do some pretty good things, you know. Ron Howard has directed a lot of great movies. And he played with the Fonds, man.

Oh, that's true. Yeah, I forgot about his happy days. role. You know, a lot of times when you have these child stars, it seems like their life goes downhill. And some of them are very tragic stories. Well, they are. Yeah. Ron Howard's definitely the exception because his career just went kind of up and up skyrocketed. Gene said he was so handy. He was the one who took care of his sister Yvonne's wheelchair. That thing was a well-oiled machine. the two of them flying down Randolph Street. Yeah, it was a good kid.

Seems like he took good care of his sister. Yeah, I did kind of want to talk about this move, right? California to Massachusetts seems like pretty polar opposite. East coast, West Coast, you know, the whole Biggie Smalls versus Tupac. You want to get into the rap debate? No, I was thinking weather, right? That's a big one. and then kind of vocabulary slash accents.

Definitely going to be a change. Yeah. Now, not for you. No, I'm good. I can do it right on point. No matter where you are. That's exactly right. How you like them apples?

I know that's one of your go-toos. That in my British. Sean also enjoyed fishing, hockey, baseball, basketball, and building forts. I mean, what? 14-year-old kid doesn't like to do those things. Like making forts. Oh, building forts. Yeah, I think there are quite a few 14 year old kids that maybe don't play sports.

I don't know that every. Well, that's true. But the forts. I mean, come on. I mean, you still make forts. We're sitting in one right now. Yeah. Yeah.

There's a lot of plastic sheeting. There is. There's weird that I'm sitting on top of one. It's very dextery. Yeah. You'll find out. Now I'm a little worried. No, but, you know, back in the day, building forts was fun, man.

And we would build them out of anything outside, whatever we could find inside furniture, pillow, sheets. Oh, my mom would hate it when I would take like the good couch cushions or good blankets, quilts. Did you have bad couch cushions? Well, you always had that front room that was like the no touch furniture. That was big back in the day. There was like one room that was for show.

Yeah. You didn't sit on that furniture. Stay off with that stuff. And then there was like the main kind of living room where everybody watched TV. You could urinate on that one. Nobody's. I don't know about going that far, but I don't know what house you grew up in. But there was no urinating on anything.

I always had at least one friend, if not more, to have that front room or the couch was encased. Like in this hard plastic. Oh, yeah. And I'm thinking, how enjoyable could that have been for the adults? Is this a collectible? Are we saving this for 40, 50, 60 years? Sean and his sister Yvonne live with their mother. They had to move often so that she could find better job opportunities.

It was difficult for Sean to cope with moving, and it affected his behavior in grades. That's expected, right? If you're moving around that much, you've got to meet new friends. You know, you have to basically reinvent yourself each time. Well, and let's say you're a person who's not great at making things. friends, would it then be that much tougher for you? I think so. Yeah, I do as well.

He was in danger of failing the seventh grade and was once suspended for dropping a stink bomb down a stairwell after he and his sister were sent to live with their father for a period of time. The stink bombs were awesome back in the day. I was never a big stink bomb guy. No, if you're on the receiving end of it, you should not be. Sean showed improvement after the school system put him in group therapy. In 1985, Sean, his mother, and his sister moved to Canton, Massachusetts.

He struggled to make friends. Sean was lonely when he started high school because his few friends from middle school attended vocational school. Man, that was always rough. I hate it that time, you know, because you'd have these great friends. And then some would go off to vocational and some would stay in the regular school system. And you just could never stay connected. You know, it's not like today we have cell phones and social media back then. I mean, you just didn't have that stuff.

And you just lost contact over time. Yeah, I know it was tough on you when you decided to head off to vocational school for beekeeping, which I thought was a strange class at the vocational school. But you know what? I made the best honey out there. You did. It was heard about for many, many counties. But back to Sean, he was bullied for his weight, his wife.

clothes and his earring. You know, and bowling was pretty rough back then. Yeah, well, as we talked about it before, people would zero in on one thing or a number of things. And they just wouldn't let them go. And they were vicious. I think we do better today with bullying. I mean, again, we had the cyberbullying.

And that's a whole different level because people can hide behind the screen and do this act of bullying and try to be anonymous. Yeah. But by and large, there is a lot more emphasis placed on bullying today than there would have been when, when you and I were in school. Yeah. Another freshman named Rod Matthews was one of the few people who were friendly to Sean, but it would later come out that this was an act.

Rod Matthews was born on July 7th, 1972. As an adult, Rod would say that he grew up in a dysfunctional family because his father was unfaithful to his mother, which caused tension and hostility. He said he didn't feel close to his family and growing up in this environment contributed to his stunted emotional state according to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts Parole Board. Coming from the parole board, I feel like the term stunted emotional state is being used for certain purposes. Well, it's probably something he thought about in his jail cell, you know, leading up,

up to a parole board hearing. Yeah. Obviously, we're getting ahead of ourselves here. But in the grand scheme of things, I'm not saying this wasn't a dysfunctional family, but it's a far cry from some of the things that we've talked about in the lives of killers. Rod's mother, Janice, told the Boston Globe that Rod was slow to start talking. She sent him to a speech therapist, but he remained below grade level in vocabulary and had trouble articulating his thoughts. A Massachusetts paper, The Daily Item, reported that Rod had an IQ of

132. So that's pretty high. It is, but look, I had problems with my speech. My vocabulary may not be the best sometimes. You know you just didn't get out the word vocabulary. Yeah, I was hoping you didn't pick up on that. And then, you know, my IQ's pretty, pretty high, like 170 something. Oh, so it's dropped. Well, yeah, I've had, I've diminished my IQ a little bit. Because I thought at one point it was like 224 or something like it was like almost over the max. Yeah. How can you be over the max? Rod was known as a prankster in class clown and he got in trouble often. He was prescribed riddlin at age seven because of his problems in school. His parents noted that he was not tested or monitored while using the drug.

Yeah, I don't know what kind of testing they would have done back then while you're on it. And, I mean, if you're leaving it up to the parents to monitor how well or the teachers how well it's working, I don't know how that works. Well, they're not professionals. Right. I mean, they are, but not in medicine. And you have to assume the parents give a crap about, is it working or not. I mean, if they're kids at school while they're on it, the parents are probably just happy

that their kid went to school. Ritalin is used to treat ADHD. It's a stimulant drug that can help with attention and behavior problems. It's also used to treat narcolepsy. I did not know that. Did you fall asleep? Oh, oh, sorry. Yeah, I did there for a second.

Among the more serious side effects are mental mood behavior changes or uncontrollable muscle move. Why get those? Well, yeah, you. rub your pants a lot. People have noticed it on the Patreon videos. Sounds a little strange, man. Well, like the knee part of your pants. Oh, thank you for clarifying. According to 2016 data from the CDC, about 62% of children aged 2 to 17 were taking medication for ADHD. That's a big percentage. It is. And my wife's a teacher, you know, she talks about it a lot,

a lot of students are taking this type of medication, there's an ongoing debate on whether Ritalin is over-prescribed to children with ADHD. I remember at one point seeing some news stories about the schools having concerns that, you know, these prescriptions we sent to the school, the school had to have a place to lock them up, monitor, the medication,

make sure that it was being used, for the students and not being stolen and things like that. I don't know if that's still out there today. And I don't know if the schools even probably don't want that responsibility. No, at least from my experience, that's not how it happens at my wife's school. Now, what she does say is that a lot of times, you know, they don't take their medication. She can tell that they haven't taken it. Or the some of these medications have taken it like, let's say six o'clock in the morning,

they wear off. at some point after lunch and then the effects are noticeable. Rod continued getting in trouble in middle school and his mother often had to pick him up late because he was in detention. At one parent's night, they asked if they should be concerned about Rod, but they were told that Rod was a good kid and it was just his age per the Boston Globe. You know, I had my fair share detention. I'm sure you probably had your fair share too.

Never, never, except for that one Saturday where, you know, we had to sit in the library, you know, it was me, the guy from the wrestling team. There was a couple of girls that got in trouble. I'm sure you were just called the breakfast club. Yeah, we caught ourselves the breakfast club. But I'm thinking, you know, are teachers really always honest with parents or they just want to get through the event of parent night and get on home? I mean, are you going to sit there and say, hey, your kid scares the bleep out of us, and you probably should get him some type of help? Well, all teachers are different, obviously.

But my thought is teachers are more than likely, probably pretty honest. They want these children to get help. They want the parents to know what they're really going through. But the other thing to me was, you know, how, many kids back then were, you know, was it said about? Oh, you know, they'll grow out of it. Right. They won't do that stuff when they get a little older. I think it's probably said the day, too, you know, with behavior issues, right? That's what kids at this age do. They're eventually grow out of it. Don't worry. Just got to put it up with it for a few more years. Rod's pranks escalated as he

got older and he started to become obsessed with setting fires. He said, newspapers on fire at home and lit fires around town. He also put firecrackers in the mouths of fish and lit them. Okay. So this is a problem. Yeah, we know that fire starting, right, can, or obsession with fire can lead to issues or can be a sign. Yeah, potential sign.

But he's also hurting animals. So you've got that as well. Experts cited two key events that preceded the murder. Rod's parents separated in September 1986, which was the beginning of his freshman year. That could be difficult for some kids. Yeah, I think most kids. In October, his sister rented a documentary called Faces of Death, which depicts the torture and execution of humans and animals.

This led Rod to want to know what it was like to kill someone. And that was a scary flick back then. And it was kind of like the must watch, right? People were talking about it around school. I remember it. Pretty disturbing. And this was obviously long before the days that you could just jump on a computer and kind of dial up whatever you wanted to watch. You either had to go rent this thing, probably have somebody rent it for you because you had to be 18 maybe.

Right. Or you had to go to a friend's house who had already gotten it. But I remember watching it. It was gruesome. And I think they came out with a. additional. Yeah, they had like two or three other ones. Yeah. Rod also stopped taking Ritalin about a week before the murder, then resumed taking it daily.

Experts would later discuss whether or not the drug had any influence on his action. In October 1986, Rod told his friends Robert Peterson and Jonathan Cash that he wanted to know what it was like to kill someone. And we're going to talk about Robert and Jonathan quite a bit, what they heard, what they saw, what they knew, and whether or not they should have told someone. It'd be strange if your friend came up to you and said, hey man, I want to know what it feels like to kill somebody. And as a 14-year-old in 1986, if your good friend said that, what would be your takeaway? For me, I'd be like, man, I hope he's joking or he's got. Gotta be joking.

But would you have run to a parent and authority figure? And my thought is most likely not. Well, I don't think so. I think you just think he's just joking or he's just, I don't know, having a strange day, man. Rod started talking about killing a boy named Josh Tordoff because he read faster than him. Seems like a strange motive for murder. I mean, just because the kid can read faster, is that a reason to want to kill him? Well, it seems to me as though he's in the selection process.

And maybe I said motive, but I don't know that he has a motive other than he wants to know what it's like to kill someone. He planned to kill another boy named Chris Petreski and invited him to his home. But Robert Peterson warned him not to go. Rod then decided to kill Sean Olett. according to the state parole board, Rod Choshan because he would be easy to get to and he probably would be the least missed because he didn't have many friends.

It sounds like he's thinking like a serial killer. A little bit. Yeah. I mean, how many serial killers have we talked about who have targeted their victims based on the idea that they would be easy to get alone,

let's say, or that they wouldn't be missed as easily as some other people. Yeah. The Boston Globe reported that Rod said Sean bugged him and called him names. Rod wrote a note to a teacher saying that he liked the light fires and wanted to kill people he hated. The note was not reported until after Sean was murdered. You know, as a teacher to get this note, it has to be alarming. but the fact that you choose not to report it, I think you have to second guess yourself on that. Well, and I'm sure this person did after the murder.

In today's world, you definitely would report it. Oh, I think teachers are taught to report anything like this today. On November 17, 1986, Sean told his parents he was saving up to buy firecrackers from Rod. They gave him permission to buy them. Rod planned to kill him on November 19th, but school was canceled because of a snowstorm. So he planned to kill him the next day. On November 20th, Rod invited Sean to his house after school to play pool and build a fort. The students had early dismissal that day. Rod planned to lure Sean into the woods with the promise of building a fort and selling him firecrackers. Sean was excited when Rod invited him over because he was part of the end crowd, according to

Gene Quinn. Well, you want to be part of the end crowd. Yeah, looking back at this point in my life when I was 14 years old, 15, 16 in high school, it was a big deal to try to be a part of the end crowd. It seems stupid now that I'm 50 years old. Right. But it was a big deal back then. But you want to fit in with the cool kids.

And I don't know how much that has changed. I really don't. You know, here Sean's mom is saying that Rod was part of the end crowd. That's why Sean was so excited that Rod, you know, wanted to hang out with him. According to Rod's account to a psychiatrist, which was published by the Boston Globe, the two were shooting pool in his basement. Around 3 p.m., Rod suggested that they go look for a place. place to build a fort. Rod retrieved one of his sister's softball bats before they left. He told Sean

he needed to return it to someone. Rod led the way at first, but then asked Sean to switch with him, saying his feet were cold and he wanted to walk in his footsteps. Rod did this to hide his own footprints in the snow. He's thinking like a killer again. And I say that because he's 14. Yeah. I mean, there's definitely some premeditation. We've talked about that. There's planning. And then there's kind of this execution of something that, yeah, maybe he saw in a movie,

on a TV show or whatever, but just the mere fact that he's trying to cover his tracks tells you something. Rod said to himself, if I'm going to do it, I'd better do it now. He hit Sean in the back of the head with the bat. Sean fell to the ground. Rod told the psychiatrist, I couldn't believe I was doing this. I felt nervous. He said he blacked out for 20 seconds and then hit Sean three to four more times. Sean called out for help after the first hit. According to the Canton citizen, Sean said, God help me as he was attacked. Rod hit him eight times total, crushing his skull.

afterwards he used snow to clean the blood off the bat and left the woods brutal attack yeah it's a brutal attack you know i do want to break some of this down you know him saying that he was thinking i can't believe i'm doing this and that he felt nervous okay you should feel nervous if you're about to beat someone to death with a baseball bat but the i can't believe that you're not I'm doing this to me doesn't come out as this is wrong. I shouldn't be doing it. It comes out in this is something I've been wanting to do for a while now. I can't believe I'm finally getting to do it. Get my opportunity. Sickening, really, if you think about it like that. And then there's this effort to use snow to clean the blood off the back. So, you know, kind of just like the footprint.

trying to clean off evidence using snow. While still carrying the bat, Rod walked to his friend Robert Peterson's house and told him what he had done. He took Peterson to see the body. When Peterson asked why he did it, Rob said, just for the heck of it. See,

this is when he's a kid, though, right? Because if he was thinking like a killer, I don't think he takes somebody back to the scene of the crime. No, most killers wouldn't want. someone else to know what they've done, but it's almost like he's bragging about it, Gibbs.

Come look, see what I've done. So, you know, there is a little bit of a strange element here for me where he's writing down to a teacher that he wants to kill someone. Yeah. Or he's thinking about killing someone. He's telling his friends that he wants to know what it's like to kill someone, but yet he's trying to cover his tracks. He's wiping off. the bat and then he goes and gets a friend and says, look, here's what I've done. Peterson called Jonathan Cash and told him that Rod killed Sean. But Cash refused to believe him for several days. Rod asked him, do you believe me? Cash said no. So Rod asked, then where is Sean? Cass refused to believe it was true until

days later when Rod and Peterson took him to see the body. So now another kid has seen the body. Yeah, brought somebody else in who knows about it. Apparently Rod threatened that he would kill them both if they told anyone. Well, do you take that threat seriously? A lot of people make threats. I do think you would take a threat more seriously if it was made while you were looking at a dead body. And I think you are correct. So the case started off as a missing person's investigation.

Rod was questioned four times. On the day of the murder, he denied having any knowledge of Sean's whereabouts and said he hadn't seen him all day. He was questioned again two days later after a bus driver read about Sean's disappearance and said she saw him get off the bus with Rob. And I remember back being in middle school or even in high school before I could drive. It was very common. Like if you wanted to go to a friend's house after school, you just got on that friend's bus.

Yeah, you could just bus hop anywhere. I don't know if that's still true today or not, but it was very common back in the day. Rod continued to deny knowing anything about Sean's disappearance during his third interview. In his fourth interview, he admitted that Sean came to his house, but suggested that Sean might have run away to the town of. whole Massachusetts or all the way to California. Well, you want to kind of distance yourself from this whole Sean thing, right? So you're going to put some things out there. Maybe the investigators will bite down on it.

But are they not going to think it's strange that he doesn't bring it up in the first three interviews and then all of a sudden an interview four? He admits that, oh yeah, by the way, Sean was at my house. Yeah, I think it's a problem for him. The police noted that Rod was always calm and sometimes smiled. during his interviews. Disturbing? Yeah, I think it's a little strange.

Most people, when they're being questioned about a murder, probably aren't always very calm and are probably not smiling very much. In early December, 1986, Jonathan Cash went to see Sean's body alone. He took note of the location and then wrote an anonymous letter to the police, informing them that Rod killed John's body alone. killed Sean Olett and described the location of the body. Well, probably ate at him sitting there thinking about it all the time and knew that he had

family that was missing him. But he also had this threat hanging over his head. Yeah. So maybe he figured that the way to do it was to, you know, send the anonymous letter. That way, there's no way Rod's going to know it was me. Sean's body was found less than a mile from his home. on December 11th, 1986. A packet of bottle rockets was found on his person, which seemed to confirm that he was going

to buy firecrackers from Ruff. In an interview with the AP, Gene Quinn said that on the day Sean disappeared, she took a nap and had a dream that he was lying in the woods with a serious injury. He was found in a similar position to the one in her dream. And that mother's intuition. Yeah, we've talked about it. before. It kind of gives you chills a little bit. There's something to it. I'm convinced of that. I don't know how it works. I don't know exactly what it is, but we've heard it way too often.

And it's a famous saying, right? I mean, you always hear it growing, at least I did growing up, you know, mother's intuition can't deny it. Something to do with the connection there. Rod Matthews was arrested on December 13th on a charge of delinquency by reason of murder. His case initially went through juvenile court. However, on May 27th, 1987, the judge ruled that Rod Matthews would be tried as an adult. That's a big moment in the case. Yeah, it's huge, right? You got a 14 year old kid. They're trying to decide what to do with him. If he's tried as a juvenile, then the options become much more limited. Yeah. He's probably sent somewhere until he's what, 18, 21, whatever the age is. If he's tried as an adult, then who knows what it

could end up being. Rod Matthews was indicted for first degree murder in Norfolk County on July 5th, 1987. In 1987, Gene Quinn testified on behalf of a bill pending in the state legislature that would allow judges to sentence youths between 14 and 17 to adult prison for murder, vehicular homicide, or manslaughter. Youths. I'll say you sounded like Joe Pesci there. Two youths. Yeah.

It's a very tough word for me to say. It was tough for him to say in that movie. She also told the AP about two disturbing incidents of harassment. In January, 1987, Gene saw that someone spelled red rum. and shaving cream above Sean's bedroom window. Okay. That's going to scare me a little bit. That's a little freaky.

I'm automatically going to go to Danny saying red rom, red rom. Okay. I don't hear that in my head. I can't help it. I can't help it. In June of that year, someone threw a rock through the kitchen window. They wrote Yvonne's next on the rock. And we talked about it, right?

Yvonne is Sean's sister. I mean, both of these are pretty nasty. Yeah, I don't get why somebody would taunt the family like that. No, the, you know, the red rum is basically taunting the murder of Sean. Right. And then you have this rock with Yvonne's next written on it that is basically taunting the she's going to be murdered. How long did it take you to realize that red rum was murder backwards? Oh, it is? I did not know that. How long did it take me? I don't know. Less time than you. That's all I know. Rod's attorney, John White, asked the judge to dismiss the indictment or return the case to juvenile court. He also informed the judge he would present an insanity defense at trial. On October 13, 1987, a judge took under advisement a motion to dismiss the murder charge. The defense indicated that Rod was diagnosed as atypically psychotic.

and that mental illness interfered with his judgment and behavior at the time of the murder. In December 1987, Dennis Clark, the president of the Citizens Commission on Human Rights International, told the UPI that withdrawing from Ritalin can be devastating for a child. He cited the Rod Matthews case as an example. Clark said it was a classic example of psychosis brought on by Ritalin and triggered by withdraw from the drug. He added, he was seven days into withdrawal. He was experiencing some of the most classic symptoms of amphetamine delusions, the intoxication, delirium, and delusional disorders associated with amphetamine withdrawal is almost a blow-by-blow description of what the Matthews

child went through. Well, I mean, typically with some medication, there's a certain way to cycle off of them. Yes. A lot of these drugs are not just stop cold turkey type of drugs, but this is a pretty big statement if you think about it, because he is basically blaming the murder on Ritalin and the withdrawal from Ritalin. That's a pretty strong statement to make. Yeah, it really is. Jury selection for Rod's trial started on February 29th. 1988 testimony started on March 2nd. According to WBUR, Ron Matthews was the first juvenile in Massachusetts to be tried as an adult. And I was kind of blown away by that. To be honest with you, 1988, I just assumed that before then there would have been someone. Yeah, you think there would

have been like a kid 16 or 17 at that point that would have been tried through the system. But apparently not. The prosecution. argued that Rod planned the murder for almost a month and had a list of possible victims. As quoted by the daily item, Norfolk County ADA Peter Casey said he was deliberate in the plan and put it into effect efficiently and effectively. So it's always interesting, right, to see how the prosecution comes out of the gates. Yeah. And then the defense comes out as well.

You know, here the prosecution is laying it on thick that, okay, it was premeditated. He planned it out. He was very efficient in the way that he carried it out. And he also had a list of possible victims. So they're kind of ruling out a snap situation, I think, right? This wasn't we got in a fight. and, you know, I hit him and he died. This was, hey, planned it out for a month,

could have been three or four different people. He chose Sean and he carried it out. Yeah, I think the prosecutors are trying to set the tone for the trial. And I think it's their opportunity to attempt to influence the jurors and how they see how this murder went versus how the defense is going to try to sell it to them. The defense described Rod as a mentally ill child from a troubled home and argued that he had been suffering from a severe mental disorder, which was exacerbated by the use of riddlin. Rod had a long history of bizarre behavior and reached out for help before the murder. Defense attorney John White told the jury, per the Daily Hampshire Gazette, in this case, is the insidious element of

mental illness with the overlying thread of riddling. They're really counting on the use of the riddlin and the mental illness. Yeah. Well, and I think they probably have to because it's going to be hard to get around the premeditation. It's going to be hard to get around this list of suspects. And it's going to be hard to get around the fact that he did kill this boy. So it's more of, well, he did it, but here's the reason why he did it. Yeah, and let's debate that.

And whether or not he should be held accountable for his actions. Rod's friends, Jonathan Cash, and Robert Peterson testified that Rod talked about killing someone around Halloween. As the weeks progressed, he made a plan to lure the victim to a wooded area and beat them with a baseball bat. Okay, that's exactly how the murder went down. According to Peterson, he planned to cut off the victim's legs and tossed them. Seems like he was going for more of a gruesome scene. Yeah, we know it didn't play out that way, but if he had done that, it definitely would have made the crime scene even that much more gruesome. Rod named several potential victims, but he chose Sean O'lett because he was new to town. According to Peterson, Rod said Sean would be the least

missed because he didn't have that many friends. So we're inside the mind of a 14 year old here. And this is a point that I really didn't understand all that much. I get it, Sean didn't have a lot of friends. He was new to town. Maybe he didn't fit in well. Maybe he just hadn't had time to make a lot of friends, but I'm not sure how much that would have factored in to him being missed. We're talking about a 14 year old. He lives at home. He has a mother. He's going to be missed. Yeah, there's somebody that's going to say we're shot at. Yeah, we're not talking about, you know, a 30 year old individual who has no connection to family and has few friends. That's a different scenario. Yeah. Peterson said he warned other potential victims, not

to go to Rod's house and he knew Rod planned to lure Sean to the woods with the promise of fireworks. Peterson said he told Sean on the day of the murder to have Rod bring the fireworks to school instead. So according to Peterson, he really was trying to warn different people. Don't go to Rod's house because he knew what Rod was planning to do. Now, he didn't go to anyone else with that information. Right. And that's something that I'm sure he regrets to this day. Yeah, it's definitely unfortunate that he did not. Peterson and Cash said that Rod took them to the body after a school pep rally and that afterwards they went to a pizza parlor together. That's a little strange, right? Hey, let's go check out the body. Okay. Who's up for pizza? And then grab a slice. Yeah.

It's odd. Jonathan Cash testified that. he knew about the plot, but he didn't warn Sean because he didn't believe Rod would go through with it. I think this is kind of a common theme that we've touched on in a number of episodes that have involved younger individuals. Yeah, I think it's easy for kids to believe that their friends are just full shit and they're just say things for attention. Yeah, bragging. Yeah. I mean, if you were 14 years old and a really good friend came up to you and said something like that, would you as a 14 year old back in the 1980s have taken them seriously? I don't think I would have. I don't know that I would have either.

Now, after the fact, once the murders occurred and once this person has taken me to see the body, all of that obviously changes. Of course, yeah. And then it comes down to, okay, were they really threatened and were they so scared of the threat that at that point they just felt that they couldn't tell anyone. Jonathan said that in the month leading up to the murder, the three of them had at least five conversations about which classmate would be the best to kill. Cash believed Rod was obsessed with his plans, but he still didn't think he was serious. Okay, five conversations about who to kill is quite a few. Yeah, I think at that point, for me, my attitude would have changed a little bit and said,

you know what, I think he might actually want to do this. We either need to find a new subject to talk about because I don't want to keep talking about, you know, who's going to be killed or I need to, you know, tell someone because I think he's serious. And or reevaluate who you're hanging out with. Yeah, that's a good point as well. Cash testified that Rod selected two other boys before he killed Sean. Rod gave details about he would lure the victim to his house, what weapon he would use, and how he would dispose of the body.

At one point, Rod planned to go with a classmate to the back of a local mall, mace the victim, and stab him to death. He's put some thought into this. Into a number of different scenarios with a number of different people. Cash testified he snuck out of his house at 1 a.m. one night and went to see Sean's body alone. He told three co-workers at his part-time job about the murder, but didn't give details. His coworkers urged him to go to the police, but he refused. Again, was it because he was so scared?

At this point, the murders already occurred, so he knows how serious it is. And obviously, it's eating at him, right? He's getting out of bed at 1 o'clock, going out, taking a look at the body, trying to talk to somebody about it. He just at that point didn't take the next step and tell the right people about it. That will come later. Cash also said that they warned a boy named Chris Petresky not to go to Rod's house after school because Rod would fire bottle rockets at him. They did not mention the murder. So I think we have to talk Gibbs about, you know, a couple of these boys.

I mean, what were they thinking after they found out that Sean O'Lette was murdered and after they found out that they were on the list first? I think you won first. You'd be like, thank goodness. It wasn't me, but also how tragic it was Sean. And then I think you'd wonder why. Why would he want to hurt me? What did I ever do to him to be on his list? Yeah, you'd have a lot of questions.

Cash said that he thought that Rod and Peterson were joking when they said Sean was dead. He believed Sean ran away, but confirmed that Rod took them to see Sean's body when they had early release from school. Pathologist George Katz testified that Sean was hit at least three times on the head before he died. A baseball bat was taken from Rod's home that had traces of blood and a bone fragment embedded in the wood. You know, as good as he was trying to hide his footsteps and clean the bat off in the snow, the big mistake he made was keeping the murder weapon. Why not burn it? Why not dispose of it somewhere?

Why still have the bat where it can be found and test it for blood and fragments? Because he's 14 years old. I think it just goes to show you people think it's easy to get rid of blood. And it's just not. No. And I'm sure he didn't know that there was a piece of bone fragment in there. He must have missed that. According to the Boston Globe, Dr. John Dagnow, a Harvard psychologist who conducted two sessions with Rod, testified that Rod spoke in a robotic monotone during his evaluations, which was a sign he had severe mental disorders. He believed Rod was experiencing transient psychotic episodes for an extended period of time. before the murder, Rod told him he was obsessed with the thought of killing someone.

Dagnow testified that Rod had several disorders, including the inability to adjust to social norms or feel remorse. Dagnos said that Rod's habit of smiling in inappropriate situations could be an indication of schizophrenia. The jury saw the letter Rod wrote to health teacher Frank Tricominy, a month before the murder. The Boston Globe published the letter, which stated, my problem is that I like to do crazy things. I like to light fires. Lately, I want to kill people. I hate and I want to light houses on fire. What should I do? And I think this is what the defense was referring to when they said that Ron Matthews

tried to reach out for help. Yeah. Prior to the murders. And we talked about this earlier. I do think, it's very unfortunate that, you know, this teacher didn't take additional steps, right, to show this letter to someone in the administration, try to figure out what was the best avenue or the best course of action. And I'm sure that person felt a lot of guilt afterwards. I don't know how you couldn't. Yeah, I think he'd have to not feel responsible, but some level of guilt. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And like, we said today I think this type of letter would be taken much more seriously and maybe it should have been in the 1980s I don't know defense attorney john white alleged that tracommy knew rod wrote the letter

but ignored it frank testified that he didn't act on the letter because he wasn't sure rod was serious rod approached him the day after he received it and asked if he read it tracommy tried to talk to him about it but Rod shrugged and walked away. And Frank didn't follow after him. Again, nobody does anything because they don't believe that Rod is serious about either what he's writing or what he's saying. Just seeking attention. Tricomi did not tell other school authorities about the letter until after Rod was arrested. Rod's mother testified that his behavior problems were a source of frustration.

for their family. Rod had a withdrawn attitude and he showed signs of fire obsession in the fall of 1986. Okay. Obsession with fire, that's one to be very concerned about. I mean, you know, being withdrawn can be as well, but I think a lot of kids, especially teenagers, go through periods where, you know, they withdraw. Yeah. My kids like to spend time in their room when they were younger in high school. I withdraw still today. You do. You're withdrawn right now. I didn't want to mention that, but yeah.

You keep back in the chair up for some reason. Getting closer and closer to the stairs. Two psychiatrists testified for the defense and disagreed on whether Rod was legally sane during the murder. Dr. Susan Wolfe found that Rod was suffering from mental illness of a chronic and subtle nature. She believed Rod had the ability to conform his conduct to the standards of the law. the law, but his mental illness impaired, his ability to do so. And I really kind of want to break this down because there's a couple of things in here that I thought were interesting. One was that she used the word subtle. I found that intriguing. And then he had the ability to conform

his conduct to the standards of the law, but he also had a mental illness that. He had a mental illness that, that was impairing his ability to do that. So she's saying what? He could do it, but it was harder for him because of his mental illness. I didn't understand that completely. Now, Dr. Norman Bernstein testified that Rod wasn't able to prevent himself from killing shot. He could understand the criminality of his actions, but could not conform his actions to the

standards of the law. So that's where they differ. conforming to the standards of the law? Yeah, I think his ability to. Two experts testified that Rod did not experience symptoms of psychosis and that Ritalin could not have triggered his violent behavior. A court-appointed psychiatrist testified that Rod suffered from conduct disorder but did not experience systems of psychosis.

Dr. Marcel Kinsborn testified that standard doses of Ritalin should not trigger violent behavior. He noted that the drug could not totally eliminate volatile behavior. So this is all interesting testimony. And we see this in a lot of cases, especially where you have a lot of experts in the field of mental health testify. Right. I do wonder how the jury took the two defense experts,

not quite being completely on the same page. Yeah, I'm sure there was some debate in that jury room. Earlier, another expert testified that the drug might have made it harder for Rod to control his behavior. This same expert testified that Rod decided to kill someone after watching the faces of death documentary. And I don't know how an expert could know that other than Rod told them that. I don't know how you can expertly say or definitively, say that the documentary caused Rod to want to kill someone. Because otherwise you're going to say every time there's a horror flick or another documentary

that someone watches, those documentaries, they will get you. I knew you were going to get me on that, but that's how I say it. But I don't know, like you said, how do you know that? You can't know that. Infinity say that. Yeah. I don't know how you can say that or definitively or, you know. In closing arguments, defense attorney John White told the jury to consider expert testimony that Rod was suffering from a chronic mental disorder at the time of the murder.

According to the Boston Globe, White said, there isn't one of us at some time in his life who hasn't looked upon a child and wondered what was going on in his mind. That is the difficulty of this case. what was going on in Rod Matthew's mind at the time of this tragedy. And it is a tragedy. Oh, this definitely was a tragedy. Yeah, he's right about that. And I also think that the defense attorney is correct in saying the difficulty in the case is what was going on in Rod Matthew's mind at the time of the tragedy. You know, when it comes to mental health, how big of a role or,

did it play any role. Now the riddlin thing, I don't know how much that would play in in the minds of the jury. You had kind of competing testimony on that, but I think you had a number of people saying that that shouldn't have played any role. I wonder in the jury if any of them or their kids were taking riddalen at that time. And if that had it, impact on their thought, did Ritalin have something to do with this or not? I think if I was on the jury and my kid was taking Ritalin and I didn't see behavior changes, I'd be like, I don't even know what they're talking about. I mean, that's the thing about a jury, right? You have these people, they bring their own life experiences with them. Yeah. Now, they're supposed to be impartial.

They're supposed to listen to the testimony, but how can it not see Ben? Yeah, I think. of these things. I think it's hard to control. ADA, Peter Casey told the jury that Rod acted with deliberate premeditation and with extreme atrocity and cruelty. Rod knew right from wrong. He methodically planned the crime and tried to cover up what he had done by telling false stories. And I think you can absolutely say that most of that is correct. He did premeditate the crime. Yeah. It was extreme. There was a lot of cruelty there. And then, you know, he was methodical in the way that he tried to cover it up and he told false stories.

The one big piece of that statement that is going to be at the center is whether or not Rod knew right from wrong. I'm sure that's what a lot of the testimony was about. We talked about the experts, the mental health experts. Did he know right from wrong? at the time he committed the murder. On March 10th, 1988, Rod Matthews was found guilty of second-degree murder. He was sentenced to life in prison

with the possibility of parole. So I think from that verdict, it's pretty clear that the jury felt as though Rod Matthews did know right from wrong. But they went with second-degree murder. Rod's father, Kenneth, said that Rod was sick and should be in a mental hospital per the Boston Globe. He added, he was crying for help.

If we had known he had written that letter, we would have been able to help him. Maybe they would have or maybe they wouldn't have. Yeah, we don't really know what they would have done. But you can understand what he's saying, right? Rod wrote this letter. Why were we not told about it? Why wasn't a bigger deal made of it?

And I think it's a valid concern. Oh, I agree. And I think if I was Sean's family, I would say the same thing. Oh, absolutely. Because then you're in the area of could this murder have been prevented? Could Sean still be alive? Would Rod never have gone on trial? Would he have never committed this murder? There's a lot of what if. Right. At this time, Rod was the youngest inmate in the state. He had to undergo 60 to 90 days of evaluation. They had to figure out. you know, how to house him, which I'm sure is difficult for a 14-year-old. I know they put him in protective custody for the evaluation period. I don't know because it really wasn't in the research what happened to him after that. I can't imagine they just let him loose with the general

population made up of adults. I'm going to guess they kept him in protective custody. until he was 18, but you would hope. But if you're Sean's family, you're probably thinking, go ahead and let them wonder. Among Jim Pop? Yep. I'm sure. Yeah, they probably did. Rod's first parole hearing took place on December 6, 2001. He was denied parole and had a second hearing on May 15, 2007.

He was denied parole again. Rod was eligible for a hearing in 2012, but requested to postpone the hearing. And I hear that about inmates all the time. I never quite understand why that is. Well, maybe they're not ready to, maybe they think if they get out, how are they going to make it out there? And they get scared. And then they say, you know what, let's postpone this. I'm not ready yet.

Hmm. That, yeah, you could be right. That never actually entered my mind. I just assumed most people in prison went to get the heck out. But, hey, during his thirms. third hearing on March 29th, 2016. Rod said, per WB, you are, as sick as it sounds, I wanted to prove that I could murder him. And it does sound sick, but it also sounds like, you know, he's being pretty honest. Sean's mother, Gene Quinn, has told multiple news outlets that she is afraid of Rod

being released and that she speaks out against his parole for the safety of, you know, the safety of the community. And I think, you know, that's something that a lot of victims, families have to do or feel like they have to do, right? They have to attend all these parole hearing. And it's kind of like another hardship for them. They've already dealt with the death of their loved one. Right. And now they have to try to keep their loved ones killer from being set free. As quoted by CBS Boston, Gene Quinn said at the 2016 hearing, I have forgiven you, Rod, but there's a difference between forgive and forget. I have been able to survive through all of this because I have done that. And there is a difference between forgive and forget.

Yeah. Yep. There absolutely is. You and I sometimes talk about would we be able to forget? I don't think anybody forgets. No. It's the, are you able to forget? I think Jean is saying she had to do that to be able to survive and move on.

Yeah. Rod was denied parole later that year. Rod had another parole hearing on June 8th, 2021. In his opening statement, he apologized for the crime and said he felt remorse for his actions. He acknowledged the impact on Sean's family, his family, and the community. Okay. sounds like a good start for parole hearing. Yeah.

He acknowledged that he started lighting fires as young as nine years old. He said it made him feel relief. And he admitted to setting anywhere from 30 to 50 fires. That's of a massive amount of fires. It is. The board asked him about his motivation for the crime. Rod said it was difficult to accept that he committed such a crime. at the time he had no concern for others,

and he did not have emotions that would have prevented him from committing murder. He admitted to planning the murder without considering the aftermath of the consequences of his actions. Rod was asked directly, why did you murder? And basically, he gave another indirect answer where he discussed his family problems. And he talked about, you know, his father cheating. and he called it a disruption that made him capable of murder. He talked about the fact that he was detached, emotionally disturbed. And he said, there had to be something that progressed over the years to get to that point

where when my family broke down, I was not able to deal with it, but I can't tell you what it actually was. The thing here is he never actually answered the question. No, he's avoiding it. He danced around it, which is strange because earlier on, he said a number of times. I wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone. He said, I wanted to prove that I could murder him. But it seems like in this parole hearing, he doesn't want to answer the question of why he committed the murder. On February 17, 2022, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts Parole Board, concluded that Ron Matthews was not a suitable candidate for parole. He is eligible for another parole hearing later this year. So Gibbs, as we wrap up this case, to me, you know, it is a very interesting one. You have a 14-year-old kid who kills another 14-year-old kid.

He has said at various times, it was just for the heck of it. you know, because I wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone. And then I think, you know, when you dissect the trial, it for me comes down to the premeditation, the planning, the multiple possible victims. And then what he did to kind of try to get away with it afterwards versus all of the different testimony about his mental health and whether or not. he knew right from wrong or could conform to the standards of the law. And obviously we know what the jury decided.

Right. But there's no doubt, you know, he was a, he was a troubled child. He developed an obsession with fires. He developed an obsession with the idea of murdering someone. There was the argument that Ritalin possibly contributed to his violent behavior. Yeah. I think expert witnesses kind of. disagreed on that.

So he's not going to go anywhere until he can talk to the parole board as if he was the guy from Shawshank. Oh, where he finally lays the cards on the table and they were like, okay, we'll let you out. Yeah. Yeah, I just, I don't understand that last parole hearing. I'm not saying let him out. I just don't understand it from his perspective. Right.

Why not just answer the question? we know the parole board wants to to hear a series of things, the remorse and all of that. It seemed like he had that or at least he put it on. Like he had it. Yeah. That he had it. Why not answer the question that they've asked him twice? You know, once you start to dance around it, you're pretty much saying, I don't want to be let out.

Maybe back to your point, maybe he doesn't. I don't know. I mean, if you think about it, he's. then in prison his whole adult life. Mm-hmm. You have to ask yourself, stepping out into this new world, because that's what it would be like to him, what's that, what's that like for me? What are my options?

Yeah. When I have this cell here, that's all mine. I know, I might not be all yours. It might not be all yours. You might be sharing it with a guy named Bubba. That's true. For all I know. You know, but you know where your meals are coming from.

That's true. You know, you're going to get some type of. health care, you know, but I don't know. Maybe he just doesn't want out. So maybe he's more of a Brooks than he is red. Yeah, possibly. True. True. Don't know. We will see. But that's it for our episode on Rod Matthews. We got some voicemails Gibbs. You want to check those out? Yeah, see him. Hey, Mike and Gibby. My name is Patty. I live in Cleveland, Tennessee. I love your show. And I'm a big binger on your show. I'm a truck driver.

I have a topic for one of your shows. It is called the Wineville Chicken Coop Murder. It happened in 1928, and it was in Maraloma, California. They did make a movie on it. In 2008, by Clint Eastwood. It's a really good movie. I think it would be a great one for your edition. And I hope you have a great day.

And keep your own time ticking. Thanks. Bye. Yeah, thanks for the voicemail. Definitely have heard of that case. We've had it on the list for years. I'm not sure why we haven't done it yet. I don't know.

I've seen the movie. Yeah. Yeah, I saw the movie too. I don't remember it all that well. I vaguely remember not understanding it a lot, which is very strange because pretty much anything Clint directs is awesome. It was good. I remember that.

I remember going out to the ranch in the movie. Yeah, maybe I need to watch it again. I probably wasn't paying all that much attention to it. You do that sometimes when you watch movies. Yeah, a lot of times I'm watching it in the background. So I get lost. And once I get lost, you know, now it is. you get lost in a movie, you don't know what's going on. I don't do that. Oh, I'm on spot.

You, you're on spot. You never get lost in anything, do you? Lost in the sauce. All right, buddy, we did have something in the mail bag. Okay. This week. I kind of messed up. I, I recorded another voicemail, but it didn't come through. So just one voicemail this episode. but Danielle Kirby, aka Lil Dixie, sent us this big sampler pack of beef jerky. We know how much beef jerky you love. I love it too.

I know, but I do eat a lot of beef jerky. You do. And this one is like, it's got some exotic stuff in there. You know, they say you are what you eat, jerk. Exactly. I've been waiting on that one.

Have you? Yeah. You think you could have crafted it a little bit better if you've been waiting a long time. It didn't really land that well, did it? No, no. But I got it. I got it.

All right, buddy, that is it for another episode of True Crime All the Time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.