True Crime All The Time - Ronald Gene Simmons

Episode Date: December 21, 2020

Ronald Gene Simmons committed the worst family massacre in the history of the US. Around Christmas in 1987, Simmons murdered 14 members of his family over a period of about four days in Arkansas. Then, several days after Christmas, Simmons went on a shooting rampage trying to get back at various people he felt had wronged him over the years. He murdered two more people and injured many others.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the monster, Ronald Gene Simmons. How could a man murder his entire family? Simmons never disclosed the exact reasons behind his murders but theories abound. This was a man who ruled his family with an iron fist. He was physically abusive and limited the locations his family members could go. Outsiders were rarely allowed inside the Simmons home. One of the biggest clues might revolve around a charge of incest against Simmons years prior. He was charged with incest against his eldest daughter and the criminal acts produced a child.You can support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Your math skills have global potential. As an actuary, you'll solve some of the world's most pressing problems while helping people to live better lives. Become an actuary through the society of actuaries and work anywhere in the world. Everyone and welcome to episode 213 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you? I'm doing good, man.

How about you? I'm doing great. Yeah. You gave me a really cool. kick-ass K-bar for Christmas. I did. I'm sky high, man. Yeah. I'm so happy about it. So thankful. And I did wipe it down good. Yeah, I'm glad you did because who knows what's on there, what's incriminating, and how long it will take for the authorities to be knocking on my door, wondering where that K bar is. That seems like that's going to happen. Like you feel like the heat's coming down. I would say you probably best to go ahead and just get rid of it. It came in a box, but the box wasn't sealed.

So I was, I was like, okay, I was kind of iffy on it. But we'll go with it. It's a great night. Oh, it is. Gibbs, we're jam packed this weekend. We have a Patreon episode out right now on Stacey Castor. I mean, you talk about an evil woman. Man, she was.

This was a woman who poisoned two husbands. Yeah. Tried to kill one of her daughters and blame the two murders on her. And that's what we know about. And that's what we know about. Yes, I think that song was maybe written for her a little bit, at least that evil woman. Yeah. You want to sing it, don't you?

I'm thinking about it. So we have that. And then on true crime all the time unsolved, we have an episode out right now. It's on the 1990 unresolved murders of Robin Cornell and Lisa Story. So headed down to Cape Coral, Florida. Yeah. And we're using the word unresolved because this is one of those. where it was it technically is still unsolved but they have a suspect this person has been

charged it just hasn't gone to trial and we don't have that resolution but for those folks that typically don't listen to unsolved this would be a good one for them yeah it's much closer to a regular true crime all the time yeah sure let's go ahead and give our shoutouts for Patreon, we had Naomi Garcia jump out at our highest level. Hey, Naomi. Tracy Novick. Thank you, Tracy. Amy Scott Spell.

Hey, ASS. Danielle. What's going on, Daniel? Aaron McDonald jumped out at our highest level. Aaron. Hannah Waters. I appreciate that, Hannah. Sheree Miller.

What's going on, Sheree? Sarah Cannon. Good old Sarah. Abigail Webster. Hey, Abigail. Amanda Gunderson. We've got a lot of Gundersons in the house. I think there's a whole.

just it's a clan yeah and i think they're telling each other they're all wrapped up hopefully maybe they're not related at all i have no idea maybe there's a big gunnerson family reunion and they're all have t-cats shirts on that would be awesome yeah uh crystal calendar hey crystal helena hughes jumped out of our highest level i appreciate that elijah tyler chambers hey tyler julie larkowski christillen barker what's going on christillin michel price appreciate that michel tony harris hey troyd Hey, Tony. Emily. Hey, just Emily.

Yeah. Sarah Levar. Hey, Sarah. Ellie jumped out to our highest level. Well, look at that, Ellie. Christina Hollowell. Christine. And Kimberly Hunter.

She's on the hunt. On the hunt. Then we go back into the vault, Gibbs. This week we selected Renee Poirier. Good old Poirier. And I hope I'm saying that name right. There's a part of me that thinks originally I might have said it Porier. Yeah. And I think she corrected me, but we'll see. Well, we appreciate you, Renee. Yeah, I hope I got it, Roy. We had some great PayPal donations as well, Chris Hartman. Thank you, Chris. Sue Lewis. Oh, thank you, Sue. Brenda Peckman. And a very big donation from Brandy Watts. Brandy with an eye. Thank you. We appreciate that. So Gibbs, this is our last episode of 2020. We want to wish everyone a happy holiday. We do. No matter what you celebrate.

Christmas, Hanukkah. There's some that I forget. It doesn't matter. I hope it's a great one. And if you don't have anything to celebrate, celebrate being alive and spend time with your family and friend. Just the fact you made it through 2020. Yeah.

You know, we should all be celebrating that. I know I'll be celebrating that. I'm looking forward to an amazing 2021. I hope it's great. Yeah. I know it's going to take us a while to turn the corner on what we've been going through, but I got high hopes. See some light at the end of the tunnel?

Yeah. Now, somebody was listening to either an old episode or something on Patreon from the end of 2019. Yeah. And they said, I must have said, 2020 is going to be like a great year. It's going to be awesome, man. And they said, boy, were you wrong on that one. Hey. Hey, we try to be optimistic.

I can't predict the future. Yeah. It would be. Yeah. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of, true crime all the time. I'm already. We're talking about Ronald Gene Simmons. You know, this is a man who committed a massacre of unbelievable proportions. He killed 16 people over a week

long period during Christmas time in 1987. 14 of those killed were members of his own family. And this is a case that you actually selected. Yeah. This is one that we've had on our radar for a long time, but I know you pushed me to do this one. You've been wanting to cover it. Tis the season. Ronald Jean Simmons was born on July 15th, 1940 in Chicago, Illinois to William and Loretta Simmons. When Ronald was just three years old, his father, William, died of a stroke.

Within a year, his mother remarried a man named William. So she had a thing for guys named William, I guess. Yeah. Or there's just a lot of Williams out there. There are a lot of Williams. This guy was named William Griffin. He was a symbol engineer for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. So, you know, this is a job that kind of takes you all over the place. You could do some traveling. It did. It took the family to Little Rock, Arkansas in 1946. And then I think they just transferred around the state of Arkansas to a bunch of different places over. the years at the age of 17, Ronald Simmons dropped out of high school to join the U.S. Navy. He met his wife, Rebecca Ula Berry while stationed with the Navy. They later married in New Mexico in 1960.

And Gibbs, over the next 18 years, the couple had seven children together. So that's a lot of kids. That's a pretty big family. Yeah. That's a lot of mouths to feed. Sure is. You know, I am often shocked at the grocery bill for our family. And I have two girls.

And on top of that, my oldest is at college most of the time. I'm still shocked. Oh, seven kids, man. I would write in this day. And you've got a son who's a big dude. Yeah, I do. Built. Yeah.

Yeah. He enjoys his. And he can put it away. He can easily. So I know you've talked about your grocery bill as well. well. But, you know, seven kids, two adults, that's going to run you a fair piece today. Yeah. For sure. That's a lot of pre-planning on the food menu. Yeah, I didn't even talk about that. I was talking about the cost. But the preparation and the planning, too, that actually, you know, goes up pretty,

pretty high as well. They probably had another fridge just full of milk and eggs. Milk? Yeah. What's milk? What do you mean what's milk? What's milk? Are you talking about what comes from cows? Yeah. That stuff. Okay.

Yeah. I didn't know if milk was something like generic that you drank when you were a kid. We couldn't get the milk, so we had milk. Nice. Yeah. But, you know. Okay. So Simmons stayed in the Navy for a few years.

Then he switched and he joined the Air Force. And at first that kind of struck. me as odd because I was wondering how many people switch branches like that. I was never in the military, so I don't really know. Maybe it happens more than what I'm thinking it does. Sometimes I think they do when they want to go into the special services. They might switch. I don't really know too many people left one to go to the other just to switch over unless they were in special forces with the Army, but then they wanted to go into the Navy SEALs. so they switched at a later day to do that.

I got you. Yeah. Maybe it happens a lot. I don't know. I just, for some reason, it kind of just jumped out at me as being a little bit odd. But he was in the Air Force for quite a long time.

Saw some action in Vietnam. He retired from the Air Force in 1979. And really, he had a pretty distinguished career, racking up a number of awards throughout the years. He received the Bronze Star, the Republic of Vietnam. Gallantry Cross and the Air Force ribbon for excellent marksmanship.

And it's really probably that last one that people will scrutinize the most after hearing the details of what Ronald did. I think it's safe to say, though, he was a very good marksman. Yeah. And obviously had a lot of training with firearms during his many years in the military. The family was living in New Mexico when Simmons retired. when Simmons retired from the Air Force, neighbors told newspapers later that the family lived out in a pretty isolated area. They kept to themselves. Ronald was described as an abusive guy who kept his wife and family isolated, kind of under his thumb.

You like to control. Yeah, controlling. We're going to hear this again when they move later on. But after he left the Air Force, he worked a series of jobs. Then in 1981, the New Mexico Department of Human Services began investigating Ronald Simmons for allegations that he had fathered a child with his daughter, Sheila. That's a problem. That is a problem. You know, I think there were some reports that his oldest son had made accusations.

I saw some reports where his daughter. when interviewed, told investigators what had really happened. He was indicted on three counts of incest. And it was after that that he fled with his family to Arkansas. And I guess what happened Gibbs was, is that this New Mexico indictment was eventually dropped because they couldn't locate him. And I read in one place where it was basically on the books for a year. and as long as he didn't get in trouble and get on some police radar for a year,

he was okay. It was going to drop off anyway. Which I thought was a little short. Yeah. But maybe that's changed, you know, in the many years since then. I don't know. But it basically just says to me, okay, you can run away from your problems. Well, sure.

From what you did, not your problems, but your crimes. Yeah. Sounds like they just didn't want up with the resources to continue to manage that maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe they couldn't leave it on the books forever. I don't know. They moved around a couple of times over the years, finally settling in Dover, Arkansas.

So that's really where, you know, this story takes place. That's where the family lived at the time of the incident. Their home was described as an eight-room residence built very shabbily around. owned two mobile homes. Now, I've heard of this before, right? Taking a mobile home or a double wide or whatever and kind of building out. Yeah. From there. Hey, we've sold a few of those back in our days together, remember? I should say, I've heard of it. I've seen it. Yeah. I've sold it. Right. But the descriptions of what they had is not something that you would want to try to sell. it's sure as hell not something you would ever want to live in because it just sounded like it was

slapped together very shoddy type work good when it comes by it might blow it over plus they didn't have a telephone they didn't have indoor plumbing no indoor plumbing would be a problem for most people well you have no indoor plumbing and you have seven kids yeah that's a lot of holes in the ground outside. And they had multiple outhouses. Yeah. And that's going to actually, they had two for sure. They were, he was planning on building a third and it's going to come into play later on. I remember seeing one outhouse that had, uh, three places to sit. It was one of the wider one. And they had, was there a division or could you see each other? Oh, you saw each other. You set, basically there was enough. I mean, you didn't have the six feet rule to

day for COVID, but back. Are you sure this is an outhouse or some kind of weird bath house that you go to? No, it was a house. Because that don't seem right, man. I got to be honest with you. Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to look over and see another. Yeah, you want to say, hey, you know what some other person sitting next year? Hey, man, look at this article. Pretty good, man. You want this? I'm done with it now. You done with that sports page? Yeah. I'm big on dividers. Yeah. Let me just say that. In all facets of my life. I like division. from other people, especially strangers, and especially when I'm in compromised positions. That's true.

And have my pants down. Yeah. Let's just say that. No. I don't want other people, you know, looking at me, gawking at me, talking to me while I'm trying to do my business. Yeah. Yeah. I never at the old gym, you know, when you had the big open showers, you know.

I, dude, I remember in college. Yeah. It was just a room with like 20 shower heads. No dividers. Everybody just standing around naked. Like, how much does it cost, really, to put up a divider? That's true. You know?

You know? Just was not fun. You would never make it in the big house, though, either, would you then? No. I mean, I made it through high school and college, but, you know, I have changed a lot since then. You do like your privacy. I like my privacy a lot. So no telephone, no indoor plumbing, but they did have a big 10-foot privacy fence to keep people from looking in.

Oh, thank goodness for that. Yeah. So, you know, the way I kind of took it from various reports was that he had almost tried to make this like a fortress. There were cinder blocks. There was barbed wire in certain places. He called it Mockingbird Hill as if it was some type of stately English manner. Yeah, yeah. But obviously it was not.

It was a shit hole. There were junked vehicles up on blocks. all around the yard. Yeah. But hey, Mockingbird Hill, man, if you want to call it. Come on down to Mocking Hill Bird.

Or Mocking Hill Bird. Yeah. What did I say? You said Mocking Hill bird. It's Mocking Bird Hill. Oh, yeah. It goes either way. And Gibbs,

I don't know all of the horrors that this family went through at the hands of Ronald Simmons. I don't think anybody really does, but I say it's pretty safe to say. It was not a happy home. again, I don't have all the details, but there were reports that the kids' friends were never allowed to come over, right? This wasn't a house where you were allowed to have a sleepover. Right. I don't, would you want to go over there and have a sleepover? No. Well, maybe he's a kid. I don't

know. I went to some friends' houses who didn't have great home lives. And, you know, it was, it was just because I wanted to hang out with them. I mentioned that Ronald was abusive. And I know he was his wife, Becky. I imagine he was with the kids as well. His oldest son, Ronald Jr. once tried to step in and defend his mother against his father, and his father damn near killed him. Yeah. It was a really bad situation. Well, you know, like, we know he likes to control the environment. He's not going to let somebody take over his kingdom. Kingdom. Yeah. This is like an episode of games of throne. Which is similar to Game of Thrones, which is a show that I really enjoy.

It really is a good show. Games of Thrones. Sorry, man. I just rewatched that the other night. But, you know, I think you were on the right track. Okay. He wasn't going to allow people over, but who in the hell really wants to go over and stay all night at this place anyway?

But, you know, things like that to me Gibbs, they give you some. inside. You don't want people over at your house if things are going on inside that you don't want others to know about. Exactly. You don't want people to see that and report that to their parents. Yeah. That might tell the authorities. Right. That's why you have a 10 foot fence. That's why you've got barbed wire. That's why you don't let your kids go to other people's houses because they might say something. Yeah. That's why you don't let their friends come to your house. It's all about control. at the very least it gives the illusion that the family is doing all right from the outside. You know, the kids did go to school and officials later said they were always clean.

They were in class. They showed up. Becky attended church. So she was at least allowed to go outside for church. Ronald Simmons apparently didn't have any friends or really even people that you would call acquaintances. Even though, you know, he'd lived in the. this area now for about five years. Doesn't really seem like the type someone would warm up to. No, especially given what we know he's about ready to do. Yeah. But isn't this what we see a lot of

times in these stories that we do? You know, from the outside. Okay, things look pretty good. But when you peel back the roof and you get a look inside that house, which obviously we can't do, we can speculate. Right. You know you get a much different story. Just like that apple, sometimes you get at the store. It looks so good. And then you cut it and it's rotten in the inside.

It just, man. It just burns you up inside. It does. He wasted your money on that delicious apple. What should have been a delicious apple. That's right. All right, Gibbs. Let's take a break.

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That's TCAT and Talkspace.com. Ronald Simmons held a number of jobs during his time in Arkansas, and these jobs, they're important. in the events that unfolded, he worked as an accounts receivable clerk at Woodline Motor Freight. He quit that job because he was being investigated for making inappropriate sexual advances towards a young woman named Kathy Kendrick. In 1986 and 1987, Simmons worked at the Sinclair Minimart, but he quit abruptly on December 18th. So there's no doubt something was boiling inside Ronald Simmons and he was getting Ray to take it out on his family and some individuals he thought had wronged him. And that rage that was boiling inside him was unleashed on December 22nd, 1987. That morning, 47 year old Ronald Simmons drove to the local Walmart and bought a 22 caliber handgun.

So obviously this is back when Walmart sold guns, which they no longer do. And actually had the 22 caliber ammo available, which is now very hard to find. Very rare. Yeah. When he got home, he bludgeoned his 46-year-old wife Becky and shot her to death. His oldest son, 27-year-old Ronald Simmons Jr., was visiting for the holidays with his three-year-old daughter. Simmons bludgeoned and shot his son to death. and then strangled his three-year-old granddaughter.

Vicious. Oh, and we're just getting started. This is already vicious. It's going to get worse. I mean, he took out his wife, took out his oldest, but then had to do something like that to his granddaughter, three years old. The thing about Ronald Simmons,

when it came to his family, he wasn't going to spare anyone. Yeah. And we'll find that out. After he had done that, he waited for his younger kids to get off the story. school bus. It was their last day of school before Christmas break. He had four children still living at home. And when they got into the house that day, it's believed that he separated them. There are some

theories that say he did this by telling them he had presents. He wanted to give them individually. Instead, he strangled all four of them separately and held them underwater in a rain barrel. He's definitely not right, man. No, already. He has killed seven members of his family. Yeah. In a single day, he buried their bodies outside. Then he waited because he was plotting to kill more people and more people in his family.

Because the older Simmons children had been invited to the home on December 26th for an after Christmas dinner. So you had 23 year old William, his 21 year old wife. Renata and their 20-month-old son. They were the first to arrive when they got to the home. Simmons shot William and Renata killing them. And then he strangled his 20-month-old grandson. I mean, this guy is just like beyond evil if there's such a thing, right? I mean, he really is.

Yeah, beyond evil, I can't even picture how someone could strangle an infant. That should make you sick to your stomach. It probably does. Unfortunately, there's more. Yeah. Because next to arrive were Simmons 24-year-old daughter Sheila and her husband, 23-year-old Dennis McNulty, as well as their children, six-year-old Sylvia McNulty, who was actually the daughter of Ronald and Sheila through this incest slash rape that we talked about earlier.

they also had with them their 21 month old named Michael. Simmons shot both Sheila and Dennis. And then he strangled Sylvia and Michael. And again, you can't really even fathom any of these murders. But to strangle a six-year-old, to strangle infants, that is just so unbelievable. Yeah. I can't get my head of. around it at all, how anybody's capable of doing that. And I'm thinking, you know, when you, as a kid,

you're headed to see your grandparents, you're excited. It's Christmas time. Sure. You know, there's probably presents under the tree for you. Yeah. I mean, you're just excited, you know, they're finally going to see, and you're going to see some of your other family members. And it's going to be a great time. And then this happens. Again, I think it's why you wanted to do the story. It takes place at Christmas time. We'll talk about it later. But, you know, Christmas time is supposed to be this joyous occasion. Unfortunately, things like this do happen even during that time. Later that day, Simmons drove to Russellville where he stopped at a Sear store and he picked up some Christmas gifts that had been ordered, but they hadn't come in before the holiday.

So they came in late. Yeah. Why is he going to pick up Christmas gifts when he's killing everyone? They're gone. It makes no sense whatsoever. Because he probably said, you know what I paid for those? My hard earned money, I need those. You know, later that night he went to a bar.

He had some drinks. And then he went home. And I assume he spent the weekend relaxing, drinking beer. I think to me, what's extra creepy about this point, is that some of his family members, they were still laying in the house dead. Yeah. He had to step over him and around them to go from one side to the other. So obviously, Gibbs, this guy was not all that broken up about what he had done.

No, I knew that once he went to the bar and decided to have some drinks and sit around a while. Now, maybe he spent time planning his next steps because Ronald Simmons was not done killing. his next focus was on those he felt had wronged him in some way over the years. So I know while we were researching this case, we kind of talked about that a little bit. Like, wonder if you or I would be on somebody's list and we hope not. But you know, you wonder if somebody ever felt like this, would we be on that list? While they were in their basement, putting lipstick on, writing down names on a list. Exactly.

Yeah. And I know you and I were talking. I can't think of anyone that has done me wrong to the point where I'm like, ah, you know, if I ever had the chance, I would do X to that person. Right.

I can't think of anyone like that. Yeah. Now, there have been people who have wronged me. Yeah. And I can list them publicly on this podcast. I choose not to. True.

Yeah. But not to the point where I would ever wish them bodily harm or anything like that. I'm not going to go eat. lobster with them and shoot to shit, but you know what I mean. And same for me. I don't think there's anybody that, you know, would be on my list or somebody that would embarrass me publicly on a podcast or... No, nobody like that that would ever... No, I'm pretty good. And I would have a hard time believing that you'd be on somebody's list as nice as you are. Yeah. I just can't see it happening. I might have made a list or two, but I'll deal with that. You know, that road rage might get on a list now and then.

The problem with road rage is not the problem, but most people don't know who the other person is. So I have ticked a lot of people off and a lot of people have ticked me off, but we don't know who we are. You never threw your business card in on. No. Yeah. On Monday, December 28th, 1987, Simmons drove a car that belonged to his son, Ronald Jr. to Russellville. He bought a second gun from Walmart. And his next stop was at a law firm.

So he entered the building. And after he got inside, Simmons shot and killed secretary Kathy Kendra. If that name sounds familiar, it should because that was the woman who had spurned his advances when they worked together at woodline motor freight. Yeah. It was after that that they started the investigation and he quit the job. Gibbs, he shot this woman four times in the head. And I think that tells you a little bit about the. amount of rage that he felt towards her.

You talk about it a lot, especially when it comes to stabbings and things like that. But I think you can use this one, shooting somebody in the head four times. He was very upset with her. And he went into that law firm knowing that she worked there and specifically to kill her. Yeah. It was very deliberate. I can imagine in his mind. He was probably thinking, you know, who was this woman to spurn my advances?

You know, I'm just a frightening looking 40-something year old man. She was probably, she's 24 at this time. She was probably 22. Well, he liked him young. Well, he did. But this guy, when you see his picture, you know, a 22 old woman is not going to be jumping up and down to reciprocate this man's advance. Let's put it that way.

I gotcha. But in his mind, he's like, how could she do that? Right. And she forced me to quit my job under this big cloud of suspicion. Well, she didn't. She was just trying to do her job and he wanted something more than working there. And she didn't like what he was doing and what he was doing was over the line. But I guarantee you, in his mind, he saw it completely different.

Oh, for sure. Yeah. Simmons next drove to the Taylor Oil Company, where he shot and wounded 38-year-old Rusty Taylor. Rusty was the owner of the Sinclair mini-mart where Simmons had worked. So obviously he held some kind of grudge against him. I never did figure out what it was. But then he shot and killed 33-year-old Jim Chaffin, a fireman and a part-time truck driver for Taylor Oil. As far as I know, he didn't have anything or any connection.

with Jim. It was just unfortunate that Jim was there at the time. He also shot at least one other employee, but missed before exiting the building. So you had these workers at the oil company. Shots are fired. Everybody knows when, you know, a bunch of shots are fired. They called police, but Simmons was already on his way to his next stop. So the one thing I would say, Gibbs, is that.

And it's pretty obvious that there was some planning involved. Right. I don't think this guy was just driving around. I think he had thought about this. For one thing, he waited until Monday because he wanted these places to be open. Right. I think he had a plan that he was going to go to the law office in the morning. Yeah.

Then he would go here and then he would go here. Very strategically planned. Definitely very organized. Yeah. I think he planned it out. strategically. I really do. But you imagine the havoc is that's just like poured on this town now. Oh yeah. He's driving around town just shooting up places. And he's not done. His next stop was the Sinclair mini mart where he shot and wounded 46 year old Roberto Woolery and 38 year old David Sauer.

So he didn't kill anybody at the mini mart. But it sounds like he tried. His last stop was the woodline motor freight company where he had worked before. Simmons located his former supervisor, 35 year old Joyce butts and shot her in the head and chest wounding her. She would survive, but she was very critical. And I think it was touch and go for quite a while. Right. But she did ultimately survive. He didn't know that, though. I'm assuming he thought with the shots he delivered, he had killed her because his next act was to take a worker named Vicki Jackson at gunpoint. He took her into the computer office and he told her to call the police. And he said to her, I've come to do what I wanted to do.

It's all over now. I've gotten everybody who wanted to hurt me. I just wanted to kill Joyce. Just Joyce. So I think that right there tells you, you know, he had a. plan, he wasn't looking to kill everyone. He had very specific people in mind that he targeted. He could have very easily killed this woman, Vicky. He didn't kill her. He didn't even shoot her. Right. So after he said this to her and she called police, he just sat there with her,

waiting for the police to show up. It was like, just like a kid at the principal's office? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now with him, I was thinking it was kind of like, I've done what I, I, I've done what I, set out to do. I've accomplished everything on my list for today. Yeah. And I'm done. And I'm ready to give myself up to police because basically that's what happened. Police showed up. He surrendered to Russellville police when they arrived. They took him to the station and locked him in a cell. Now the next day they went to his home and gives them telling you there's no way that those those officers could have been prepared for what they found. Because when you think about it,

at this point in time, no one but Ronald Simmons knew about the murders that had happened in the six days prior to his arrest. Yeah. What a shocking fine that will be. Yeah. Because police are just thinking, wow, this is a guy who went into some businesses.

He shot some people. He killed some people. Well, they're about ready to find out. it goes much, much bigger and much worse than what they thought. Pretty deep. Inside the house, police found four adults and one child dead. The adults were William, his wife Renata, Sheila, and her husband Dennis.

And the child was Sylvia. Ronald's daughter, he had fathered through an active incest with his daughter, Sheila. Initial reports said that the adults were still wearing their coats, which to police meant they were shot and killed very quickly or very soon after arriving at the home. Yeah, he didn't waste any time. Now, I saw some other reports where he draped the coats over them. So there were some varying reports on that. One person was shot near the Christmas tree, which had a bunch of unopened presents under it. So I think that in and of itself would have been very tough for police to see.

For sure. Nightmarish right there. But they found more horrors when they searched the cars and the grounds of the house. Inside the trunks of two different cars, police found two dead infants wrapped in garbage bags, Williams' 20-month-old son and Sheila's son, Michael. I don't care how grizzled you are, how long you've been on the job. I don't think you're ever getting over that. No, I don't think you can never be prepared. And then I don't, like you said, I don't think you can just like shake that off.

Like, yeah, just another day at the office. No. No, you're going to carry that with you for quite some time. And if you don't, probably something wrong with you. Yeah, I'd say it might say something about you if you're able to to shake it off that night and sleep, you know, soundly. But police found seven more bodies. in a shallow grave, about 150 feet from the house. The bodies were identified as Ronald's wife, 46-year-old Becky,

his son's 27-year-old Ronald Jr., and 14-year-old Eddie, his daughter's 17-year-old Loretta, 11-year-old Marianne, and 8-year-old Rebecca, as well as Ronald Jr.'s daughter, 3-year-old Barbara. I could imagine as this gets leaked out through the community, how shocked they had to be. They were already shocked from hearing everything that happened at the businesses, right? Yes. But as this comes out, I mean. Well, you know, we talk about police.

How hard would it be for them? So first you find the bodies in the house. Then you find two infants in these trunks. Then you find seven bodies. I mean, there's no way that they had ever seen anything like this. Gibbs because you know what nothing like this had ever happened in the history of the United States yeah I mean this was and I believe still is the largest familial murders ever in the United States yeah 14 people from one family all killed

police discovered that Simmons had soaked the bodies in kerosing most likely because he believed that would help limit the smell and You know, we read all the names out. And I think when you do that, the magnitude of it hits you very hard. It's a lot of names to be read out. You know, for anyone to kill 14 people is beyond belief. But to kill 14 members of your own family, again, you just can't wrap your mind around how someone could be capable of doing something like that.

Because I guarantee you people are going to listen to this. maybe on their way to a family gathering. And they're going to get there and they're going to look around at their family, extended family and say, I love these people. All of these people love me. There's no way in the world any of us could ever do something like that. And that would hold true for 99.999% of the households in America.

The problem is the whatever small percentage of people, somehow are capable of this. And that's a scary thing. I mean, I get it. You know, we, we all have joked about going to different family get-togethers during the holidays. You know, it might be a little tense, a little rough, you know, depend on some of the family members you might see, but not like this. No.

No, I mean, there's in any family, maybe that one person that you don't want to be seated next to or you don't want them to start in on a story because it's, you know, 30 minutes later, you're, you're looking for the exit. Exactly. Because it's still going. Yeah. Yeah. But it's much different.

You've already heard it for 20 Christmases. Yeah. You've heard it many times. Once in custody, Simmons gave no insight as to his motive for the murders. In fact, he wouldn't say a word to the police. When they brought up his family, the sheriff said that Ronald's bottom lip quivered, but that's about it. Then when he went in front of a judge for his bond hearing,

he wouldn't even respond to the judge's questions. And one of the things that really hit me kind of hard Gibbs as I was researching this case was thinking about the sheer number of funerals that had to be planned, right? So you've got 14 members of one family, extended family. You've got all these relatives that are going to have to come in, the planning, the grief, the misery, all of it due to the actions of this one man. I mean, just the devastation across the board.

Yeah, I think it's just the sheer magnitude of it, right? The number of people, because there would be 16 funerals. Simmons was sent to the Arkansas State Hospital in Little Rock to be evaluated by a psychiatrist. He was found to be sane and capable of standing trial. He was assigned some public defenders. The prosecuting attorney was a guy by the name of John Bynum. So in all, Simmons was charged with 22 crimes, including 16 murders. He pleaded innocent to all charges in the beginning.

And his attorney hinted to the media that he may later change his plea to innocent by reason of insanity. The judge in the trial agreed to a defense motion to move the trial to a different county. I don't know how you couldn't, right? Right. This was splashed all over the media. There is nobody in that county probably that would have given this guy a fair trial. I'm not sure they would have in the county over either, to be honest with you. But I think probably not in that whole state, but.

But again, this isn't really a trial type episode. This guy, he's going away. The evidence is kind of overwhelming. but the defense lost their motion to have all of his charges tried in one trial. The judge ruled that, nope, they were going to do two separate trials. Basically what it was one trial for the two non-family members that were killed. Right. And then a separate trial later for the 14 family members.

That's how they were going to do it. Simmons was convicted on May 12, 1988, for the deaths of Kendrick and Chaffin. He was sentenced to death by lethal injection and given another 147 years. Just in case. So we're going to kill you. Yeah.

But we're also going to give you 147 years. Well, just in case that zombie. In case you come back as a zombie. Right. I say that jokingly, but we all know why that's done. It's done for the purposes of things happen, right?

appeals things get overturned okay yeah maybe your death sentence gets overturned but you got this 146 years and we can resentence you again for the other part exactly you're not going anywhere so there's always a method yeah right i joke about it sometimes because on the surface it seems strange to get a death sentence and then also get 146 years but we know why they do that there's definitely a reason behind it. After the sentencing, Simmons said, I Ronald Gene Simmons wanted to be known that it is my wish and my desire that absolutely no action by anybody be taken to appeal or in any way change this sentence. It is further respectfully requested that this sentence be carried out expeditiously. So he wanted to die quickly. And I think the state wanted to want to.

to put him to death very quickly. Sure. Yeah. I think they were totally fine with it. But a Catholic priest named Louis Franz stepped in and petitioned the Arkansas Supreme Court to file an appeal. Ultimately, they ruled that he had no right to do so. But it did delay Simmons execution. And I think because of the delay, they move forward with prosecuting him for the murders of his 14 family members.

Yeah, I think they, they needed to. Because originally, I'm not sure if they were going to because they thought he was, his execution was going to happen so quickly that it would almost be a moot point to have this trial for these other 14 murders. Yeah, why spend the money? Why I put the extended family through any of that emotional distress? But if there's going to be appeals, there's going to be delays, okay, we're going to try him. And there was some concern by many people that he would be executed before standing trial

for these 14 murders. There was a lot of people that didn't want that to happen because they wanted to trial to occur. They wanted him to face up to own up to what he had done and be convicted by a jury of his peers and all that. On February 10th, 1989, Ronald Simmons was tried. in the circuit court of Johnson County for the murders of the 14 members of his family. The jury convicted him of capital murder and sentenced him to death by lethal injection. And he got a death date of March 16th, 1989. And again, following this trial, he notified the judge that he wanted to waive his right to appeal.

He wanted to die. He never made any bones about that. Which I'm surprised that he just didn't take his own life after he shot Joyce. I think it's a good point, a good question to raise. Why didn't he? Yeah. Maybe he was incapable. Yeah, he was capable enough to strangle an infant, you know?

Multiple infants and shoot members of his family. I think you can have that. I think you can have a person that is capable of doling out unbelievable amounts of violence. but they can't take their own life. And maybe he was one of those people. Sounds like he was. The court did find that Simmons was competent to waive his right to appeal. And that was backed up by the Arkansas Supreme Court who said Simmons knowingly and intelligently made a waiver of his right to appeal.

The interesting part about this trial to me, because I know we're not talking very much about these trials at all, but there's really not a lot. lot to talk about. The prosecutor, this guy named Bynum, he did offer up a possible motive when he presented an undated note that was discovered in a safe deposit box at a Russellville Bank after Simmons was arrested. So they searched his house. We talked about that. That's obviously when they found the bodies. They also got a warrant for this deposit box. Inside there, they found this letter. And the letter was from Simmons to his daughter Sheila. And it was really kind of a love, hate thing.

I mean, I think there were things in there about, you know, I love you. You destroyed my life. Yeah. And so there was a thought, at least by the prosecutor, that in his mind, his warped,

I'll call it, love for his daughter. Because obviously it was illegal. It was what he did was absolutely wrong and illegal. Right. I'm not sure he thought that way in his mind. I think he had a love for his daughter that is much different than most fathers. Let's put it that way.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely put it that way. And I mean, I think it went on in time, not just at the point where he did the illegal act back in like the early 80s. I think it existed even years later. Oh, I think he wanted to be with her. I do. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think that's what the prosecutor was saying, offering up a possible motive. And the judge did rule the letter admissible. They went back and forth, you know, fighting about it. And Simmons actually punched this prosecutor in a face. And then he tried to get a deputy's gun. So he had very strong feelings about this letter. Yeah. Yeah.

which kind of backs up what we were just saying. Yeah, I think it does. A whole bunch of officers had to subdue him. They put him in chains. Ultimately, though, he was sentenced to death by lethal injection. And again, waived all rights to appeal. So like I said, he wanted to be executed as soon as possible. He wasn't going to fight it at all.

He wasn't going to appeal. But there was another death row inmate named Jonas Whitmore who did fight it. So this guy's contention was that the U.S. Constitution mandated an appellate review of a trial in any capital case. And I'm sure this inmate didn't do this on his own. I'm sure he had some help. Sure he did. From, you know, some attorneys that were maybe anti-death penalty. That could have been the case.

The Arkansas Supreme Court decided not to review Simmons conviction. So it was up to the U.S. Supreme Court. And they ultimately ruled that this guy, Jonas Whitmore, had no standing to intervene in the case, had no right, really, to file the appeal. And you know, Gibbs, this guy didn't care about Simmons at all. No. Now, what he did care about were the ramifications that a ruling could have for him and other death row inmates. Yeah, he was trying to set a precedent. Exactly.

Yeah. You know, because at this point, Arkansas hadn't executed anyone since 1976 when the death penalty was reinstated. I actually don't think they had executed anyone since like the 60s. But there were a number of people on death row, right, waiting to be executed. Now, what all these legal wranglings did was delay Simmons execution to the point where he didn't become the first person in Arkansas. to be executed since 1976. He would have been if he had been executed when his first date was set. Right.

But he didn't make that date. So a man named John Edward Swindler was executed seven days before Simmons on June 18th, 1990. He became the first in Arkansas since the death penalty was reinstated. One interesting thing I saw is that, Ronald Simmons was constantly harassed while he was on death row. But Gibbs, it wasn't for the reason that you might think, right? It wasn't because he had killed women and children.

It wasn't because he had raped his young daughter. Yeah. It was because he refused to appeal his death sentence. That didn't sit well with the other death row inmates. No, because they thought that was bad for them. Yeah. He was setting a bad precedent. you and I have done a lot of cases. How long does it normally take after someone's convicted

to be put to death? Yeah. What's the average you'd say? 20 years? Oh, 20 plus. Yeah. Some of them go 25, 30. If I had to put an average on it, I'd say it's like 20 years. Yeah, unless you're in Texas, a little quicker. Maybe a little quicker and probably a little quicker in Arkansas. But, you know, when you give up all your appeals, when you waive your rights to all of those things, you can be put to death very quickly. Yeah. It was on May 31st, 1990. Governor Bill Clinton signed Simmons second execution warrant for June 25th, 1990. So, you know, when you look at that, that is what, two and a half years? Yeah. From the time that he committed the murders, not even from the time that he was convicted. That is very quick.

Very quick. When you're talking about an execution, I think it's the shortest amount of time between sentencing to execution in U.S. history since 1976. I don't think anyone else has been executed this quickly. I don't think that record, if you want to call it a record, will ever occur again either. I don't think it will ever be broken. Right.

Because first of all, not many people waive their rights to appeal. And even when they do, it seems like somebody else steps in for them and at least slows things down. And maybe some, some laws have changed even since then anyway. Simmons refused all visitors, including legal counsel, clergy. And this wasn't just like in the days leading up. This was like weeks and months. He just would not let anybody come visit him. Probably somebody would want to visit him.

Well, I was going to say, yeah, besides his legal. council and clergy, I don't even know who he would have had that would have had any interest in coming to see him. The guy killed his entire family. His last meal was an eight ounce filet mignon. Well, you've ruined it right there. Yeah, why even get it at that point? Why even get it if you're going to get it well done? Two raw onions, tomato slices, a banana, six rolls, six slices of cheese, and two cans of seven up. I've heard of. Wars. Yeah. Now, I think you and I are on the same page. An eight ounce filet, awesome. But the minute you have it well done, you've ruined it. And that's, that's my opinion. I know a lot of people that

like their steaks well done. Not me. I think you've lost all the flavor. I'm out. You do love your meat. I love my meat very much. Yeah. Also, I'm not a huge fan of seven up. Are you more of a sprites or No. You're just not big into lemon sodas at all, lemon lime sodas? Yeah, why are you just trying to find another lemon lime soda? I'm going Pepsi, Coke, Dr. Pepper, Mountain Dew. I'll take any of those. You are a big Pepsi Mountain Dew guy.

Yeah, I am. But definitely not seven up. Seven ups for like when you have a tummy ache. It's more like, I look at it as medicinal. Medicinal only, yeah. It was reportedly the same exact last meal he had ordered the year before. when he came very close to being executed. Now, you know, you have to think about that.

You know, you get that kind of stay. Yeah. At the point where you're ordering your last meal, that's very close. You're about ready to be executed. Most people, that would be earth shattering. Right. Not that you got to stay. That part would be good.

Yeah. But the fact that you made it that close. You went through. To him, I think it would be earth shattering the other way around. Yeah. He wanted to die, and they pushed it back on him. I'm still thinking, if you already had your last meal, why do you get another one? I don't know that he got the first one.

Okay. I think he ordered it. Yeah. I don't think he got to the point where he actually was able to eat it. But I actually do think you get a second one. If something like that happens. I'd be like, hey, you had your chance, buddy. You know, sorry.

He had your chance. You had your meal. No more meals. No more meals. His last words were justice delay. played, finally be done, is justifiable homicide. He was administered the lethal injection cocktail. And I think it took about 19 minutes, I think is what I read, which seemed like a long time.

It does seem like a long time. I thought normally it was like seven, eight minutes. Yeah. But I thought I read that it took 19 minutes for him to be pronounced dead. No family members came to claim the body. Shocker. Shocker, because he killed his entire. family. Ronald Jean Simmons was buried in Lincoln Memorial Lawn Cemetery in Grady, Arkansas.

So Gibbs, as we wrap up this case, it's a horrifying one, no doubt. Yeah. Made more horrifying, I think, the fact that we're telling it at Christmas time. Like I said, I believe it's still the largest familial mass murder in U.S. history. The details of what this guy did, they're beyond comprehension. The holidays are supposed to be a joyous time spent with family and friends. I mean, you talked about this, right? Everyone, but especially kids. They're excited at Christmas. They get to open presents. They get to visit with maybe cousins that they don't get to see all the time. Grandma, grandpa. It's a good time. For most people, it really is one of the happiest times of the year. But we know

that for some, it can also be a very lonesome and troubling time. The suicide rate goes up around the holidays, unfortunately. Right. And from time to time, you're going to have something like this happened. Yeah. And we've covered some other cases where people have killed family around Christmas. Specifically, I'm thinking of the guy that had the homemade flamethrower. Yeah. I can't remember his name. but that was an ex-wife situation. Yeah. If I remember correctly, he was getting back at his ex-wife and her family and all of that. You know, when I look at this case, there are a few things that I struggle with.

And I think a lot of people struggle to figure out. Number one is the motive, right? What exactly drove Ronald Gene Simmons to commit these murders? I don't think he ever said, ever. I did it because of X. I just think he didn't like his life, man. He wasn't happy with how his life ended up. I don't know where he thought it should have been,

but he didn't like the way his life was. Yeah, some people have pointed to the letter that we talked about found in the safe deposit box and this love, hate nature of it towards his daughter, Sheila. Another theory that I saw floated was that his wife Becky was finally planning on leaving him and he found out about it. Yeah, that would be something that will get him going. I think her family Gibbs had tried to get her to leave him for many years.

The murders outside of the family seem to have been directed at people who Ronald thought had done him wrong. Right. In the case of Kathy Kendra, it seems to involve a love, hate thing as well, right? Because she spurned his advances. I think the second thing that people look at is could this have been prevented? Were there signs that there was something going on with him that people could have, should have recognized?

The town they lived in was very small. Yeah. I think I read maybe a thousand people. Some reported later that they had seen bruises on Rebecca. I mentioned it. She went places. She went to church. Right.

But nobody reported anything. Nobody ever reported anything. So I think people look at that. You know, I think Ronald Gene Simmons did a pretty good job of insulating himself and his family from the outside world. You know, I mentioned Becky's family.

They came out and said that he had basically cut Becky off from her entire family right after the incident, the incest thing in New Mexico. Yeah. But to me, these two questions still remain. Number one, what exactly was the motive? And maybe there was more than one.

Multiple, multiple factors. And then number two, could someone have done something to prevent it? Now, that second one, I think is a question that you can ask in almost any case we do. Because a lot of times they are signs along the way. I think much easier to understand what they mean after the fact. Yeah. You know, you look at the Martin Bryant. Sure.

Port Arthur Massacre. There were signs there. Yeah. But I think they meant something different or there was much more to them after people found out what he did. Much easier to read after the fact. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that.

But that's it for the case of Ronald Gene Simmons. It's a tough case. It's a tough case. And obviously it's a tough case to do it this time. of the year. But I hope people listening to it don't get too paranoid, right? Go to your family gatherings and enjoy your family. To me, that's what this case should prove. Yeah, I get it. People are capable of this, but what it should prove is that we love our families. The majority of us, we have great families and we should cherish the people that we love and all of that.

especially around the holidays, you get to visit more. Now, COVID's putting a damper, I'm sure, on some people. We've got some voicemails Gibbs. You want to check those out? Let's hear them. Hey, Mike. Hey, Givie. My name is Andrew.

I'm calling you from Kalamazoo, Michigan. Well, technically, Portage. So I started listening to your podcast about six months, six, nine months ago. And courtesy of one of my coworkers, who there's probably like six or seven of us at my job that listen to your podcasts. I work 10 hours a day. One thing I wanted to say is the dynamic you guys have is just spectacular. You somehow managed to balance humor versus being serious. I mean, you clearly have a lot of fun with what you do. So I was just curious. Any, has there been any podcast or, sorry, any cases that you guys were just like, what did we just go through?

I'm just curious, what would you say were like the top two or three just like what just happened cases that you guys have gone through? Anyway, I hope you all have a good one and I hope to hear more of your podcast. Thank you very much. I think it's a great question. I know we've been asked this question before. You and I have probably even talked about it before. We have. So I'll list my three and they may be very similar. You know, the murder of Sander Cantu.

I know both of our charts. took a toll on both of us. Yes. It was very tough. And I don't know that we've ever gotten over it, but especially in the weeks after, I remember you and I talking about it and it just, it hurt us. It did. Inside.

Arthur Shawcross, for me, really was a, a tough one. And then kind of, I'm thinking Chicago Ripper Crew. That was a rough one. It was a rough one as well. Yeah. And I had a problem with the one that we just covered, you know, the two-parter. It was really... Martin Bryant.

Yeah. Stuff on me. Just thinking about how somebody can randomly do something like that. Yeah, the randomness of it. That was rough. Yeah. And this one was rough, right? Anything that involves kids.

Oh, for sure. For you and I and for the listeners is usually pretty tough. Hi, Mike and Gibby. It's Brad Chasin from Columbus. I just want to say, I love your podcast. You guys make every day go by faster, especially these long 12-hour days and everything. I just wanted to say that I appreciate everything you guys do.

I've had somebody in my family that committed a murder to his own father. His name is Brian Martin. Last July, he's lived out on drugs, broken his father's house, and attacked him with some kind of blunt object. I'm not really sure what it was. But it's a recent case, if you can, look it up. If you not, I understand. His name is Brian Martin, and his father was Lee, Mark.

All right, guys. How you going? Keep your own time ticket. All right. So definitely a case to check into. Sure. Depending on where it's at, if he's going to trial. Right. We may wait until all the particulars are in, but we'll definitely take a look at it. For sure. Hi, Mike. Hi, Gibby. This is Veronica calling from Southern California. I'm just calling so that you guys know, I love your show.

I listen to it every week. I have a suggestion for you guys. The case on Wayne Garrison. I've heard it. Actually, I saw an episode of it on Netflix, and I thought it was really interesting. They kind of went through the case pretty quickly on the episode, but I feel like you guys would do a fantastic job looking into this and telling the story of Wayne Garrison. He apparently killed three kids, mutilated their bodies. As a young child, he killed animals and the whole serial killer get-up is all him. So if you guys can do that show, I would appreciate it. All right.

Thank you. Stay healthy. God bless. All right. Thanks for the voicemail. That name is very familiar. I'm pretty sure he is on the list. Yeah. But I will double check. Now, from her description, it also sounds like it would be a very tough case to cover. You know, the murder and mutilation of kids, um, not easy. Not easy at all. Because I think what people don't realize is, okay, this, an episode, let's say is an hour, an hour and 10 minutes, whatever it turns out to be. the research to make that episode happen takes 20, 30 hours in some cases.

That's a lot to digest and read and soak in. And at the end of it, you're kind of fried. Yeah. Or you're hurting for the victims and their families and all of that. So Gibbs, we had some mailbag. Let's hear. Our friend Debbie Sullivan sent you an amazing picture that she painted herself. You thought it was a self-portrait of me. Yeah, I thought it was. It's not?

No. I know you liked it. Yeah, thank you. H-Graph sent you some prickly pear licorice. Prickly pear. Did I say licorice? I know some people pronounce it that way, but I normally don't. If you want to call that, I'm not going to stop you. I normally say licorish. I've never had prickly pear. I haven't either. It'll be interesting. Something to try. Sure. Also sent me some very cool chips from Tombstone. Really? Yeah, it doesn't get much cooler than that. Like a bullet hole right through the middle. Yeah, Wyatt Earp, all that good stuff. Michelle Slocum sent us a Halloween card. She sent it on 1024. Yeah. And we just got it. Amazing. So probably lives right next door in the neighboring state, too. So I think it kind of shows you issues that some of the delivery entities are having.

I know the post office, everybody's a little slower than what they normally would be. Now, this was pretty slow. I think it got rerouted or something. Right. And that by the way, that's that same mail pattern right there. That money I owed you, I cut that check. It probably in the same place. I bet. Yeah, it's on its way. Checks in the mail. Yeah, it's coming. You can actually use that and it buys you more time today. Yeah. Then it would have last year. Sure. Checks in the mail. Yeah, checks in the mail. All right, buddy. That's it for this episode. I want to wish everybody again, happy holiday. This is our last episode of 2020. Gibby and I are going to have a good break. Spend some time with our family next week. But we'll be back with you in 2021. It can be awesome. Keep doing our thing.

So we said last year, it's going to be awesome. Hey, 2021 is going to be awesome. Yeah. It's got to look up from here. All right. That's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.