True Crime All The Time - Roswell Gilbert

Episode Date: June 26, 2023

In 1985 Roswell Gilbert was convicted of murdering his wife of 51 years. The prosecution argued that he planned to kill his wife, who had suffered from Alzheimer’s and osteoporosis for years, while Gilbert’s defense described it as a “mercy killing.” Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Roswell Gilbert and the murder of Emily Gilbert. The prosecution and defense offered up their evidence and their version of events. Roswell appeared to be pretty truthful in both interviews and in court. It was up to the jury and the judge to decide Roswell's fate.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 339 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? Hey man, I'm doing good about yourself. I'm doing very well. Man, having a good week. You and I are doing a flurry of recording here.

A flurry. A flurry. A corne copia. We just got done recording a Patreon episode that will have dropped Saturday night by the time this comes out. It's on the murder of Jacob Hindershot. Jacob came to Florida in 2011, trying to reconnect with his mom. And he was murdered after having this brief relationship with a girl who claimed she was a vampire.

Vampire-ish. So there's a whole lot that goes into it. We also have a brand new episode out on True Crime All Time Unsolved. And it's about Alicia Hummel, who went fishing by herself in 2015. 15. She was updating her friends and stuff on social media. And then all of a sudden, that communication stopped. And then shortly after that, they found her body floating in the water. We're going to dive into that investigation. Yeah. And it remains unsolved to this day. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had R.D. Perky. Hey, R.D.

Mike, Kristen, Kyler and Jared Dewerson. Well, thank you, Mike and Kristen and Kyler and Jared. Sounds like we got the whole family there. Yeah. Fly Army 20s girl. What up 20s girl. Alyssa Fleck. Hey, Fleck. Emma. Emma. Laura Corrondo. Hey, Carrondo. Katrin McCall. Hey, Katrin McAld. What's up? Baddard. Irene Nimson Tansky jumped out higher than our highest level. Well, thank you, Irene. Larell Wilson. Hey, Larell. Shanna Pickett. What's up, Pickett? Clifford Hoskins. Hey, Hoskins. Jessica Haytrak jumped out of our highest level. You're awesome. Jessica, thanks. Aaron Ken Martin. Hey, Aaron.

Andrew Esson. What's going on, Andrew? And last but not least, Jennifer Molnock. There's Jennifer. And then we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Magnus Abramson. Thank you, Magnus. It's a very strong name. It's a very good name. It is. Yeah. We also had a great PayPal donation from Tommy Swenney. Hey, Tommy. Yeah, I appreciate everyone for the support. So we need to let everybody know that Gibby and I are taking next week off. We need a little vacation. We're halfway through the year.

Yeah. And then like we normally do, we'll take another week off at Christmas. And a little time to recharge the batteries and we'll get back at it. It's important to do. Yeah. So no episode next week. We'll be back with you in two weeks. We'll miss you.

All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I'm ready. We are talking about the. case of Roswell Gilbert. In 1985, Roswell Gilbert was convicted of murdering his wife of 51 years. The prosecution argued that he planned to kill his wife who had suffered from Alzheimer's and osteoporosis for years, while Gilbert's defense described it as a mercy killing.

So you and I've done a lot of episodes. And we've covered some nurses who claimed to have been. mercy killers. I don't know that we've ever covered a case like this where a spouse killed their partner and claimed it was a mercy kill. Roswell Ward Gilbert was a retired engineer. During his career, he was vice president of Weston Electronics and later VP of Dictophone Corporation. He often testified in criminal and civil trials as an expert witness, according to the LA Times. dictophone. You don't hear that much anymore. No, I know you're a big fan of the dickaphone,

but don't hear much about it at all anymore. Do you even know what a dictaphone is? Yes. You specifically left out a couple letters there, I feel like, whether on purpose or just being you, I don't know. Emily Rosser Gilbert was a homemaker. The couple lived in an oceanfront condo in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. In 1985, Roswell was 75 years old and Emily was 73. Again, like I said, they'd been married for 51 years. Yeah, it's a long time. It is a long time. They had a daughter named Martha Moran. Martha was close with her parents, but especially close with her father. So let's talk about 51 years. I'm getting ready to turn 50. You are. You are already 50. Yes. So, to be married for as long as we've been a lot.

Oh, yeah. That says something. I've been married for 27 years and I feel like that's an accomplishment. Yeah. But 51 years is really saying something. It is. The fact that number one, you could put up with someone for 51 years or you like someone all that time

and you can look past certain things. Or tolerate. Well, you know, people grow apart. They do. Some people do. Yeah. I don't know. I just look at it as a,

a major accomplishment. My grandparents were married for over 50 years. Yeah, same with my parents. Emily Gilbert suffered from Alzheimer's disease and osteoporosis of the spine, which caused her severe pain. So she was suffering. She was suffering. I don't think there's any doubt about that. The Gilberts were living in Spain. When Emily was diagnosed with Alzheimer's, they moved from Spain to Fort Lauderdale after receiving this diagnosis. The Fort Lauderdale, The Fort Lauderdale News reported before her illness, Emily was a lively, attractive homemaker who enjoyed nice clothes and fine jewelry. She was very conscious of her appearance and tried to maintain it even as her illness overcame her. In 1985, one neighbor told the Fort Lauderdale news that Emily had advanced Alzheimer's.

She only recognized close friends if she saw them in the same place every day. The paper reported toward the end, Emily Rosser Gilbert could not recognize her friends. She couldn't bear to be separated from her husband of 51 years, even for a minute. Finally, she couldn't even recognize him. Yeah, I mean, that's a terrible, terrible disease. We know that. You know, I've been through it with how my mom had to handle that. Yeah, you and I both have dealt with it.

Yeah, for sure. And it is rough. It really is. To see people go through that. And the changes from day to day. You know, you go to visit someone and one day they know who you are, the very next day they don't.

No. And people's tempers change. They do. I remember with my grandfather, he was always kind of a laid back guy. Yeah. But when the disease kind of, you know, started to really take over,

he got very angry quickly. A short fuse. He had a short fuse and that was never like him. Probably heard words out of his mouth you never heard before either. And then the same with my grandmother. Yeah. You know, never heard some of these people cuss. Same with my mom.

And so to hear some of the words, I didn't even know they knew some of those words. Yeah, exactly. So it's got to be somewhat hard for them as they go through this. I think eventually at some point, I don't know if they even know what they're doing. you know, but. But at some point they do. At some point they do. And it has to be very hard.

Yeah. And then you think about the caregiver or the spouse or the family members, as we know, it's hard on us too. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very nasty, nasty disease. Martha Moran told the outlet in the beginning, she would forget sort of silly things.

A year and a half ago, she could not even remember her grandchildren's names. Most of the morning, she would wait. wake up and ask her husband, who are you? Emily also suffered physically because of her osteoporosis. It was painful for her to lie down, so she had difficulty sleeping. According to John Clinker, president of the condo complex, Emily's pain was heart-wrenching for Roswell. Roswell was a private person who didn't show a lot of emotion. Few people knew just how much he was affected by Emily's poor health. Martha said her father hadn't even told.

told her that Emily was positively diagnosed with Alzheimer's. You know, I want to go back to them saying that they couldn't bear to be apart for even a minute. Yeah. And it really does remind me of my grandparents who were married for over 50 years. You never saw them apart. Yeah. They only had one car.

They went grocery shopping together. They went, you know, to eat together. It's not like they met friends separately. they did ever they were just always together yeah some people can't do that no today no you know but back then yeah and i'm sure there's people would do it today you know and my mom and dad were married for over 50 some years they were always together i have a great marriage but i need my space yeah i like to have time to myself and my wife does too so she says the same thing yeah it works out well for both of us roswell purchased books on alzheimer's and content

contacted clinics all over the U.S., but there is no cure for the disease. According to Roswell's friend Eugene Hudak, Roswell told him, there's not a damn thing I can do. Every avenue I exhausted. And I believe he did all that. I believe that if he could found a place based on his employment history and things that he's done and, you know. Sounds like they had some money. Yeah, we have an oceanfront condo in Fort Lauderdale. you're probably doing okay.

And I think to where you're going, he would have paid whatever he had to pay. Sure, he would have. If there was something that could be done. But that's the problem with that disease. There just really isn't anything that you can do. No. Roswell took Emily to the hospital on March 2nd, 1985,

where she was sedated because prescription medication can no longer manage her pain. She returned home on March 3rd. And I think that really does. tell you something about her level of pain. I'm sure she had some pretty powerful prescription drugs. Of course, yeah. But at some point, that wasn't even enough. She had to be sedated on March 4th, 1985. So this is the day after she returned from the hospital. Roswell Gilbert killed Emily inside their conduct. About 25 minutes before Roswell ended Emily's life. He told his friend Eugene

Houdak that he felt hopeless. At 305 p.m. he called the security desk and said, I just shot my wife. Houdak called the police and then went to the Gilbert's condo. Roswell appeared to calm, but he was crying. Houdak recalled him saying, thank God, her suffering has finally stopped. I don't care what happens to me. Her suffering is finally over. And we set it up front, right? This is going to be a conflict. The prosecutor. saying that, you know, this was a premeditated murder. The defense saying that this was a mercy killer. Roswell was waiting for the police when they arrived.

Sheriff spokesman Matt Weising said, as quoted by Fort Lauderdale News, apparently she has been suffering for some time from Alzheimer's disease and a painful spinal condition. It was more or less of a mercy killing. He went on to say, she apparently, was awake at the time of the shooting. He tells us he came up from behind so she wouldn't have known he was coming. Roswell shot Emily twice with a nine millimeter luger. She lay on the living room sofa. He shot her in the back of the head once, checked her pulse and then shot her again. He described Emily's final moments in a 1990 interview with the South Florida Sun

Sentinel. He said she started to groan. She said, she said, I have never hurt anybody. Why does everybody hurt me now? Roswell, are you there? I love you dearly. Okay. It's kind of sad. It really is.

You know, it brings a little bit of emotion out. I think it just further shows you what this woman was going through. In constant pain, wasn't sure exactly who everyone was, didn't recognize people. Yeah. Eventually got to the point where she didn't even recognize her husband who was with her every minute, you know, of the 51 years of marriage. But what I want to go back to is this sheriff spokesman saying, and this was a quote, it was more or less of a mercy killing. Yeah. What do you make of that? It sounds to me that he's saying that Roswell decided to end her suffering.

Roswell told the police he felt like it was his responsibility to do something after doctor said they could do nothing for Emily. He considered the shooting for a month, according to an affidavit. Roswell Gilbert was released without posting bail on March 6th. A judge allowed him to participate in a community release program due to the circumstances of the case. Okay. How many times do we hear that? Because we know that he's ultimately going to be charged with. with murder. We haven't said it yet. Right. But he's released no bail. So at this point,

it doesn't sound like they thought he was a murderer. No, and I think they said it right. With the circumstance that's involved, you look at his age, you look at his standing in the community, maybe they just feel like he's not going to be a flight risk. Martha Moran said after the bail hearing that she first thought her mother had Alzheimer's two years earlier, but Roswell denied it. She last saw her parents in 1984. Emily forgot what she ordered at a restaurant. She told the Fort Lauderdale News. Thinking he would die first, he once told us that he never wanted to go into an institution. I don't think he could see her institutionalized, and that's what he was facing. on March 20th,

1985, Roswell Gilbert was indicted by a Broward County grand jury for first degree murder. That's interesting that he never wanted

to be placed in an institution. And I know that's... Or institution. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And I know neither of my parents wanted that. They made it very clear to each other

and to us that they, if that ever came to that, that's not what they wanted. Yeah, I think there's a lot of people that share that sentiment. Yeah. You know, if they can't live life on their terms at a certain point, they don't want to be helped. No.

To just stay alive. Exactly. I guess for the lack of a better term. But, you know, I talked about him being released. It seems to me as though something changed pretty quickly, right? Because he's indicted on a first degree murder charge within, you know, a couple of weeks of her being killed. Dr. Eduardo Hidalgo.

Emily's doctor testified that she could have lived a very poor life for five to ten years, according to the Fort Lauderdale News. I don't know what that means. I don't either. I don't know if you can say a good life, a poor life, or is it just a life? She's going to have five to ten more years left to live. But he says it's not going to be a great life. It's going to be a poor life.

But in the eyes of the law, does it matter what the quality of life is? I don't think it does. I don't think it does here in the United States at all. Neighbor Lillian Irvin testified that she heard Emily sobbing like a child and begging to die 15 minutes before she was shot. Roswell later told reporters he did not recall Emily outright asking to die. You know, which is interesting because if you knew that your neighbor said she heard your wife begging to die. Why not play into that? Why not play into that?

But he's saying, no, I don't even remember her saying that. I just did what I did because I thought that's what needed to be done. Prosecutor said that mercy killing is not a legal defense. Under state law, any moral justification may figure into the penalty phase, but individuals must exhaust all alternatives before killing. So who weighs in on making that decision that everything's been exhausted? What does that even mean? Everything's been exhausted.

Well, you know, I take that to mean you're never going to be okay to shoot a loved one in your home. Right. Now, if they get to the point where they're on life support, can you end life support? Yeah. Legally. That's okay. You can do that if you have the proper paperwork. The proper paperwork and the authority to do so.

But you can't shoot somebody in your home regardless of how bad they're suffering or whatever. Roswell was expected to testify before the grand jury, but his attorney said he didn't have the strength to do it. According to the Fort Lauderdale News, associate medical examiner Jim Ongley, who performed Emily's autopsy said the information points to it not being a mercy killing. Okay. So here is the first kind of contradiction. Everybody up to this point has kind of said mercy killing, even though the first, you know, the prosecutor said, you can't legally do that.

Right. They even said you can't legally commit a mercy killing. But now the medical examiner is saying, well, I don't even think it was a mercy killing. Ongley said that on March 4th, he spoke to Roswell to learn about his wife's medical condition, Roswell made interesting comments. Roswell quoted his stepfather as saying, when you have an impossible problem, you smash it. basically saying what if you have a problem that you can't get rid of you find a way to deal with it

and be done with it take care of it take care of it take it out or you know and could you say that he was looking at her medical condition as a problem that had no way of ever resolving itself and for her to not be suffering so he took care of it well and you could make the inference that smash it in this scenario means kill her. Right. At the time, news outlets reported about a similar case from 1983 when a man named Hans Florian shot his wife in a memorial hospital because she was suffering from Alzheimer's. His wife had deteriorated to the point that she only shouted fire and pain in German. The grand jury chose not to indict Florian. So Gilbert's attorney was hopeful that he would not be

indicted. At a bond hearing on March 22nd, Roswell said he killed his wife because there was no option. And according to the Fort Lauderdale news, I just had to end her suffering. There was no hope of recovery. I had to do it. I was the only one who could have done it. He also said that all those things had been pretty terrible since Emily's death, the real ordeal was when she was ill. All those years, this ordeal is just happening to me and I can take it. So I think, you know, everything that's coming out of his mouth is pointing towards this notion of mercy killing. During the hearing, he was freed on a $10,000 bond.

Outside court, Roswell expressed that he was quite surprised when he was indicted earlier that week. His trial was set to begin on May 6, 1985. Roswell was represented by Joseph Varon and Harry Golkin. the defense refused the customary disclosure of information from the prosecution, which helped get the case to trial in just six weeks. The following trial testimony comes from the Fort Lauderdale News. In his opening statement, defense attorney Joseph Varen said that on the afternoon of the shooting, Emily burst into a condo board meeting that Roswell was attending and shouted through tears,

please end my suffering, I want to die, kill me. Roswell took her back to the condo, put her on the couch, and then killed her. He wrote a letter of apology to the condo association that said, I just could not allow my lovely lady of 51 years to descend into a living hell of suffering and degradation. So far, everything that he's saying sounds like he's done it for her. Yeah. I haven't really heard him say anything that he's done it for his peace of mind.

Well, and so far you haven't heard anybody else say that either. Right. I mean, he even said, I can handle the hell. I didn't want her to have to. Prosecutor Kelly Hancock said in his opening statement, merely because someone's in pain, that doesn't mean someone else has the right to take their life. And I would agree with that as the law is written. Sure.

I think that's what the law says. because Hancock told the jury that Roswell's motivation didn't matter. While the defense told the jury, they shouldn't look at things as black and white. Hancock said that Roswell killed Emily, knowing it was against the law and rejecting reasonable alternatives. So even the prosecutor is not saying, well, he had a girlfriend on the side or he didn't want to be married anymore. He's just saying he shouldn't have done it. He knew it was against the law. Hancock argued that Emily's physical condition had not deteriorated as badly as Roswell claimed.

Emily could walk and eat on her own. He also noted that Roswell considered killing her for at least a month. And Emily dressed up and went out to lunch with Roswell on the day she was killed. I get it. But that thought process, when you're with somebody that's going through that 24-7, you're seeing how much they change. And maybe they're not to the point where they can't feed themselves, but they have definitely changed.

And, you know, at least in some cases that I saw, you know, in the nighttime, the individual really changed to the point that you just were heartbroken for them. Well, and so what do you make of someone being able to go out to lunch? You know, my thought is there are good periods and there are, bad periods. Exactly. I mean, you dealt with it. I dealt with it. One day, it could be this. The next day, it was totally different or totally different during the day at a doctor's appointment, but that night you thought, oh my gosh, what has happened? Well, and then you have to factor in this

osteoporosis as well. Yeah. Varon, you know, disputed some of the prosecution's claims and said doctors would testify that Emily suffered from Alzheimer's disease and osteoporosis, which caused her to suffer from frequent fractures in severe pain. Does it mean she couldn't have gone out to lunch? No. No. Sounds like she was in the most pain when she actually laid down. Barron portrayed the Gilberts as an adoring couple,

the envy and the talk of the condominium where they lived. He said he would present testimony showing that. Roswell suffered from caretakers syndrome, which is common among people who care for terminally ill loved ones. Roswell suffered from depression, resignation, and isolation that impaired his judgment. Barron told the jury, his judgment was obfuscated, obscured, and convoluted by his great love for his wife, his agony. Whatever he did, he acted in the purest sense of good faith. It was an act of mercy with no criminal intent. Okay.

I get what he's saying. I don't know why he's got to use such big words. Could have said the same thing using much more understandable and easier to say words. But what I want to talk about, because he's saying act of mercy. Right. But what I really want to focus in on his criminal intent. Yeah. Did he intend to commit a crime?

did he know it was a crime or does that matter? Because a lot of times you hear that old saying, I don't know exactly how it goes, but it's not knowing the rules, not knowing the laws is an excuse, right, for whatever you do. You can't just say, oh, well, I didn't know that that wasn't a crime.

Sheriff's detective Richard Schiff testified that Roswell felt responsibility for Emily and doctors couldn't do anything for her. Roswell considered poisoning her. but he was afraid he would botch the job and make Emily's condition worse. He quoted Roswell as saying, Cowards use poison. I guess heroes use guns.

So if Roswell really did say that, I think you're getting some insight into his mindset because he is kind of saying or calling himself a hero for doing what he did. Or at least that must have been the way he felt, as though he was really doing the right thing. Yeah, I believe that he felt he absolutely was doing the right thing. I don't know if he felt like a hero. I think he's using that quote.

Chef testified that Roswell said he didn't discuss death with Emily because she could not think in abstract terms. State witnesses testified that Emily was wearing makeup, jewelry in a coordinated outfit on the day she died. Okay, I don't know what, you know, what that means. I was kind of thinking the same thing. Did she put it on? Did he help her put it on? Did he pick it out?

You know, I do know that a lot of people can do things like that. Yeah. But can't remember their children's names. For sure, I would go to my mom's house and she'd be dressed, ready to go, but she thought I was somebody else. Yeah. So I don't know what to make of that. I mean, it's worth including, right?

Yeah. Put everything on the table. Roswell Gilbert testified on May 8th saying he knew he was breaking the law but didn't think what he did was wrong. He said, sure, I knew I was breaking the law, but there seemed to be things more important than the law, at least to me in my private fashion. So I think one thing you got to say is this guy is truthful. I think he's told the truth. Yes. The entire time. It's not like he said, nope, didn't shoot her. And now he's even saying, yeah, I knew I was breaking the law. I think he did exactly how he stated earlier. I did what I did. I knew it was wrong based on the

law. I don't care what happens to me. That's what he said. But he also said, I didn't think what I did was wrong. And those are two different things. That is. Right. Right and wrong as it pertains to the law versus what you believe is right and wrong. Yeah. His biggest fear was that Emily would die alone. And in pain, if he died first or put her in an institution, he also testified that his love for Emily never waned, despite her dependence and her, what he called psychotic fixation on him. Again, you're with each other essentially every waking minute for 50 plus years, except for when they're at work, probably. He said he made the decision to kill her in a fraction of a minute.

Roswell testified she was in pretty bad pain. I put her on the couch. Then I stood up and looked at her. She kind of looked beautiful to me. I guess she always was beautiful. Then she said, please somebody help me. Please somebody help me. Who's that somebody but me?

You know, I guess if I got as cold as ice water, that's when it happened. And this statement referred to a psychologist testimony that Roswell had to be cold his eyes to shoot his wife. He said, I thought to myself, I've got to do it. This can't go on anymore. I shot her in the head. I felt the pulse. I thought, oh my God, I loused it up. I went back.

This time, I was shaking like a leaf. I put another bullet in her head. Okay. Now, that last part sounds a little cold compared to what he had. had been saying. Sure. But I think he's just telling the story as it happened. Yeah, because I think he's so honest, you know, and I'm sure he thought the first shot should have did the job. It didn't. And it didn't. So then he got panic, not because something bad was going to happen to him, but because he saw his wife was still alive and he was probably worried that she was suffering maybe

be more. Yeah, even more than what she was. Roswell said he was outraged by the indictment, which accused him of killing Emily with intent. He said he didn't plan it until that last half a minute. He could not recall the telling detectives that he thought about it for a month, but did say, I think when you get old, you might contemplate that kind of thing. He said he briefly left Emily alone to attend a meeting. She followed him and begged him to take her home. he then took her upstairs and shot her. He told the jury that Emily was in constant pain and hospital personnel could not handle her.

The only thing to me was to terminate her suffering. I didn't consider what would happen to me at all. So again, I think he was being pretty consistent. And I do think he was being pretty honest about everything. But is that going to save him? Yeah, I don't know. I mean,

but just like you said, his story is consistent. not he's not wavering no you know he's laid it all out up to this point i don't really see an alternative motive no and it's kind of almost in a word refreshing and i know that sounds strange but we tell so many stories and you know these suspects flip-flop him hall change their story to kind of skirt the known evidence right and he's not doing any of that he's not trying to get out of anything. You know, he did say, I don't remember telling the detective that, but the guy's 70-some years old. Maybe he just doesn't remember it. I don't know if refreshing is the right word, but it does seem to me

as though he is being relatively honest. Closing arguments took place on May 9th. Joe Varon told the jury, you're going to play a vital part in the history of America. If you acquit him by your decision, you will say there must be facilities for Alzheimer's disease. You must enact new laws to help people situated as Roswell Gilbert. He must not stand alone. We must not let Emily Gilbert die in vain. Okay. I see what he's trying to do there.

He's putting a lot on the jury. He's basically saying this isn't just about Roswell or Emily Gilbert. This is for all the Roswells, all the Emmys, all the people who are dealing with this type of Alzheimer's or severe pain, that's a lot to put on the jury. And I think it's a pretty smart tactic, to be honest with it. Yeah, I think they ordered it really well. Kelly Hancock told the jury that acquitting Roswell would open the floodgates to these people in the hospitals and nursing homes,

that people can be above the law and do this. He also urged the jury to disregard the testimony about curate. syndrome saying, I don't think caretakers have a hunting license to go out and kill people with Alzheimer's. It's not open season on these people. Hancock told the jury that Roswell was cold and calculating and didn't kill Emily out of compassion. He said, as quoted by UPI, Emily became a problem. He had decided that Emily was a psycho. That's the word he used, psycho. Don't let sympathy get in the way of the cold, hard facts. So, you know, he's got to combat the defense and what they're saying.

And I do understand what he's saying to the jury as well. Sure. If you acquit, then you're basically saying anybody can do this whenever they want. And where's the law? Well, you're exactly right. Because if, if that's the way the jury goes, every attorney is going to point to this case if they ever have a client in the same position. Yes. Judge Thomas Coker instructed the jury, not to decide anything because they felt sorry for or angry with anyone.

On May 9, 1985, Roswell Gilbert was found guilty of first-degree murder. He was sentenced to life in prison with a minimum of 25 years. The state didn't seek the death penalty. After the verdict was announced, Martha Moran said in court, he'll die in jail. They've murdered my father. According to the New York Times, Roswell said after he was convicted, I don't feel like I committed a crime at all. Justice is on my side, but the law is on somebody else's side. Gilbert's defense attorney Joseph Varon

attributed the verdict to Roswell's stoic testimony. He said, jurors are human. They would prefer to see a man get on the stand and cry his heart out. He has no tears left anymore, according to the UPI. And, you know,

this is something. that you and I have talked about in different ways in a number of episodes. You know, how people view someone's emotion, right, whether it's a stint on TV after their child goes missing. You know, here we're talking about how Roswell acts on the stand. He's stoic. He's not crying when he talks about killing his wife. And why is that? Well, maybe it's because he's not sorry. Oh, he did what he had to do in his mind. He did what he had to do. What he felt was the right thing to do.

Yeah. But his attorney is saying his jury doesn't want to see that. No. They want to see a man up there who's broken and is letting all the emotion out. And Roswell doesn't have any emotion left to let out. And that's not him. We learn through this that he's just an open and honest individual, stating the facts and leaving at that.

Defense attorney Harry Golkin said that they would base the appeal on technical legal grounds contending that the judge erred during trial. Judge Thomas Coker denied any instruction to the jury that euthanasia could be a good faith act based on the orally expressed will of the deceased to die. According to the Fort Lauderdale News, Coker allowed photos of Emily's gunshot when which inflamed the jury and he restricted the testimony of a psychologist about caretaker syndrome. But this is something that you see in a lot of trials, right? What is allowed, what is not allowed, what type of jury instructions are given, they play a big part in the ultimate outcome of a trial. They also play a big part in the appeal process.

On May 13th, Florida Governor Bob Graham spoke at the judicial conference, of the 11th Judicial Circuit and said he would not rule out the possibility that the case could be considered for clemency. On the 15th, Governor Graham said he hoped to find a way that Roswell could be released from prison while his attorney's appeal. And I found that to be, you know, pretty interesting that like very early on he's talking about possible clemency and saying that I hope there's a way that this guy can be free awaiting his appeal.

It kind of gives you a little bit of a clue into maybe how his thought process was. Where he's on it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it kind of solves two problems. It allows the verdict to stay on the books. So it doesn't open up a floodgate of similar cases,

but also allows him to not have to go to prison? Yeah. Yeah. No, I get that. And I'm sure that's what he was thinking as well. The next day, Joe, Veren told the press that he mailed a request to the governor asking for a commutation of the sentence. On June 14, it was announced that Governor Graham would ask the Florida cabinet for clemency.

On June 27th, Governor Graham officially requested a waiver of the rule so he and the cabinet could consider the case before the normal appeals process was completed. Three cabinet members supported the move. On July 2nd, the governor and state cabinet decided to go through. through with the clemency hearing, Governor Graham reiterated the justifications for special consideration. He noted Roswell's age, poor health, and whether or not it was a premeded homicide or mercy killing. At this point, Roswell had been confined to the infirmary for weeks after a surgery to remove a blockage in his urinary system. Roswell was incarcerated at Avon Park Correctional

institution, which he called the country club of the system in Florida, according to the Fort Lauderdale News. Okay. So they didn't send him to Angola, you know, or Folsom. They sent him to what he called the country club of Florida. As far as prisons went. Well, at least he's not, uh, happened to sleep with one eye open. It didn't sound like he was.

No. Plus, you know, the other thing is I don't think other prisoners would look to down on this guy. You know, if anything, they might be a little sympathetic to him. You know, this is not a child molester. No. This is not, you know, a rapist or anything like that. Now, you can agree or disagree with what he did, but I can see where maybe some prisoners would look at it and say, yeah, I get why you did what you did. Yeah, leave that guy alone. Not to mention the fact that he's like 70 some years old. Yeah, that's true. Roswell told the Fort Lauderdale News in July, I think I did it right and still do and always will.

After spending all those pleasant years with somebody, you get the notion this is a stewardship. And when you get married, you promise to love, honor, and obey and take care of them, et cetera, et cetera. I really felt that. And all those years gave me a license to handle this problem myself in my own way. I saw no alternative at all. I didn't want to help myself. Her physical problem was the paramount thing by far.

When asked if a part of him died with Emily, he said, yeah, sure, I'm a little different because of it. I have all the memories of a beautiful life. Roswell had always kept his emotions suppressed, but apparently in this interview, he struggled to talk through tears. He said that he allowed himself to think of a future. He wanted to resume consulting work as a search. circuit designer and write and speak about his experience, he said any royalties he received

would go to research for Alzheimer's disease. He also said that he thought the chance of being convicted was possible but seemed remote. If he was a juror, he would not have voted for a conviction. Now, I'm sure there's a lot of people who have been convicted that would say the same thing. Absolutely. If I was on that jury, I wouldn't have voted for a conviction. But again, this is such a different type of case for us than the ones we normally do. Right. You know, I think there are going to be many people who are sympathetic of Roswell Gilbert

and the situation and the ultimate steps that he took. Now, there are going to be plenty of people that say, it doesn't matter, right? The law is the law and you broke the law. And I see both sides of it. He said, knowing what he knew then, he would have done the same thing,

but would not have fired the second shot. He did not know the first shot was fatal. He also said he might have testified more about Emily's condition, telling the Fort Lauderdale news, I didn't feel I had to prove what I said. I said that I loved her. I said that I killed her. I just figured I'd give the bare facts.

I thought they would accept my statement as truthful, unless they could get someone to contradict my testimony. I was looking at the thing so logically. And that was a big fat mistake. That's all. So obviously at some point after the trial, after the conviction, he kind of started to realize what his attorney said. Right.

And it was that the guy was too stoic on the stand. The jury, they wanted to see a little bit of emotion. Somebody broken a little bit. Yeah. And his way of thinking, which was, I'm just going to give these short statements of fact and as long as they can't contradict me, I'll be okay. Right. That obviously wasn't correct. Gilbert's testimony was described as matter of fact and cool, which again, likely didn't do him much to gain the jury support. Roswell said about his testimony in a 1990 South Florida Sun

Sentinel article, I should have wept and rolled on the floor, but I'm not built that way. I tried to tell the jury as articulately as I could. Why I did it, I guess it riled them up. I think what he's saying, I get it. You can't be something that you're not. It's going to look worse. Well, it's going to come off as fate. Yeah. If you try to put on the crocodile tears. Yeah. Now, if you're genuinely sorry and you're genuinely remorseful and the tears just come, that's one thing. Sure. But this being such a strange situation, I don't know that he was sorry. I don't think he was. I don't think he was remorseful about what he did because he still felt as though he was doing the right thing or did the right thing. Yeah. It's hard to be sorry or put tears on for something like that if you don't feel like you did anything wrong. On August 6th, the state parole and probation commission recommended that the governor and cabinet reject clemency. The review was scheduled for August 8th. At the clemency hearing, Governor Bob Graham said, Roswell's request for a full pardon would not be addressed until the strength of his appeal

was assessed. Gilbert made a statement through his attorney, let me die in my own bed. On August 22nd, Governor Graham recommended that Roswell be freed from prison pending the outcome of his appeal. However, he would need the support of three out of six cabinet members on the 26th. Two Florida cabinet members refused to cast the deciding third cabinet vote needed for Roswell. to win release from prison. Roswell's attorneys were scheduled to present arguments for a formal appeal before the 4th District Court of Appeal on August 23rd, 1985. Joseph Varon told the judges that the trial was tainted by mistakes committed by Judge

Thomas Coker that unfairly prejudiced the jury against Gilbert. On April 30th, 1986, the appeals court upheld the conviction. On September 10th of that year, the Florida Supreme Court rejected Roswell's appeal. That same month, Joe Varon submitted a new letter requesting clemency from the governor and cabinet. Governor Graham had just two months left in his term before Governor Bob Martinez would take office. And then the decision would be up to him. On April 6, 1987, Roswell's attorneys argued in a federal court that he was denied his constitutional rights when he was automatically sentenced to a mandatory minimum of 25 years.

They never had the opportunity to argue mitigating circumstances because the prosecution chose not to seek the death penalty. The U.S. magistrate wrote in a report that Joe Varon did not present the issue at trial or in Roswell's direct appeals. Until the state court avenues were exhausted, the issue should not be in federal court. On February 12th, 1988, Roswell Gilbert asked for a new trial, arguing that his former lawyer Joseph Varon botched the case and had a conflict of interest because he represented Gilbert while making deals for a movie and book.

Varen, now retired, said in a sworn statement, It is quite possible that the economic factor of the book and possible movie or television rights was prominent in my thinking and perhaps swayed my judgment in some. some critical areas. That's pretty interesting for him to admit that. Sure it is. Now, maybe he's doing that to try to help Gilbert. I would think so.

And not really saying, oh, I, you know, I messed up. It might have even been his suggestion. It could have been. Yeah. We don't know. You know, we have seen where attorneys have told clients that, you know, on appeal with a new attorney, you're going to have to say that, that we messed up, the original trial.

You're just going to have to say that because it's part of the process. In April 1986, it was announced that NBC purchased the rights to Roswell's story for a television movie titled Mercy or Murder. The movie aired in January 1987. Barron received $50,000 from the sale of Gilbert's movie rights. Roswell received $5,000 and donated it to charity. How does the attorney? attorney get $50,000, where Roswell only gets $5,000. Very good agreement.

That must be. On April 14th, the state attorney general's office filed a suit seeking to use the son of Sam's statute against Varon and Gilbert. The state asked for a temporary injunction that would prevent Varon and Gilbert from spending past income or receiving future income from the story about the case. The statute is named after the New York law enacted in 177. that prevented David Berkowitz from profiting off the depiction of his crimes. And I think it's a very good law. I think so too. The part that kind of threw me is, you know,

Roswell donated $5,000 to charity, right? That's what he received. You're going to want that back from the charity? And I'm sure it was Alzheimer's related. I'm sure it was, yeah. On May 6th, Judge Thomas Coker said he would schedule a hearing to determine if the conflict of interest. warranted a new trial. That hearing took place on August 2nd. Stephen Gether's producer of Mercy or Murder testified that he would not have made the movie if Gilbert was acquitted or pleaded

guilty. He was interested in the case because he thought the conviction and penalty were severe. Roswell's attorney Bradley Stark argued that there was a conflict of interest with Attorney Joe Varon because Varon had to balance legal strategy against what scenario would be most saleable and financially beneficial to himself for a book and movie. So, you know, that's a pretty interesting argument. Did he do what was right for his client? Or did he do what was going to make him the most money? Yeah.

Make the story the most sensational that it could be. Barron's former partner, Harry Galkin, testified that he disagreed with Veron's decision to forego most pretrial research. He did not withdraw from the case because he wanted to help Roswell, and he advised Gilbert about the conflict of interest. Joe Varon testified on August 3rd and denied that he was motivated to rush to trial for money. He suggested that Roswell give him the literary and movie rights to pay his legal fees. The rights played no part in his decision to demand a speedy trial without doing the normal

pretrial research. He thought the speedy trial would benefit Roswell because of public sympathy. So now we know why he got a bigger chunk, right? It's the pay his fee. Yeah. To me, this notion of, hey, let's forego the normal pretrial discovery and all that and let's get this trial underway. You know, that's a right that the defendant has, but is it in a defendant's best interest. Now, Varon is saying he thought it was because of the public sympathy with that wane as, you know, time went on. And that's a good question. And I really don't know. I don't either. So how do you make the argument that he was right, he was wrong, he was doing it in the best interest of the client or in his own interest when it was going to come to the book or movie rights? Yeah, I can see where some people feel like this is.

self-serving. Sure. On September 1st, 1988, Roswell was denied a new trial. Then on September 6th, a judge ruled against the state's attempt. To seize the profits from the movie and any future books and movies about the case, Joe Varon announced that he had abandoned a book he was writing about the case. On January 31st, 1990, the 4th District Court of Appeal denied Roswell's request for a new trial. After visiting Roswell in prison in June 1990, former prosecutor Kelly Hancock sought clemency for him. The South Florida Sun Sentinel reported that Hancock said, It's time for the system to show some compassion.

I never intended that the man should die in prison. I don't think the prosecutor regrets what he did by getting this guilty verdict, but I think he's now showing or wants to show compassion by assisting Roswell getting him out of. of there. Yeah, I mean, according to him, he just didn't think it would go that long. He didn't think he would get that much time. And he even came out and said he didn't have a change of heart, but he believed that if Roswell's health was failing, he should be released. On August 1st, 1990, Roswell Gilbert was granted clemency on humanitarian grounds by Governor Bob Martinez and the Florida cabinet. The clemency order commuted his life sentence.

Martinez said, as quoted by the LA Times, a just society is one that tempers the need for punishment with the compassion that is our hallmark as a people. Mr. Gilbert is in declining health and the likelihood that his condition will continue to deteriorate if he remains in prison leads me to the conclusion that he should be granted clemency. So what is like 81 right now? Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing that I was thinking about, and I don't know if a fact. this in or not, but what is the likelihood that this guy was going to do something bad, commit another crime? To me, it wouldn't be high at all. I think it would be zero. Zero,

basically. Martinez also said illegal acts, including so-called mercy killings, cannot be overlooked. And my decision in this case should in no way be seen as detracting from the fact that Mr. Gilbert is being punished because the jury of his peers found him guilty of first degree murder. However, I am not oblivious to the fact that Mr. Gilbert is 81 years old and in declining health. And all of that makes sense to me, right? He doesn't want to put the jury down by saying, hey, you guys made the wrong decision. Right. Yeah.

He also doesn't want to encourage future acts like this that violate the law. But he's saying in this case, this guy's 81 years. years old, his health is declining. I think we're okay to let him out. Yeah. There's no immediate danger to the public. Yeah. According to the Associated Press, Gilbert acknowledged that it was wrong to kill his wife saying, I shouldn't have killed my wife. Now I know that. It's difficult to explain to anyone who hasn't been through this trauma, a mental trauma, really. Emily's illness created just a complete state of desperation in my mind. It's a lousy excuse, but that's what it was. We mentioned it. Roswell was in poor health when he was released. He suffered from heart and lung disease,

hearing loss, poor circulation leading to fainting spells and confusion. He told the Miami Harold that he had nightly telepathic talk with Emily. He lost 40 pounds in prison and said he would probably ignore his daughters pleased to stop smoking. In January, a medical report stated that Roswell was considered a high risk of death at any time due to his age and physical condition. Well, if you're still smoking in your 80s and you have heart and lung disease, it's probably not a good thing. According to the L.A. Times, Gilbert described prison as a human zoo and said, it's been plain awful for a freedom-loving person like myself. And I would say it would be awful for anybody who loves their freedom. Yeah, I would think so too. Even though he, you know, he mentioned that he was kind of like in the country club of prisons.

Still prison. Still prison. He didn't like it. To the point, he lost 40 pounds, which means he probably wasn't too keen on the food. Yeah. Well, and, you know, it's still prison in the fact that you don't have complete freedom. You can't do what you want. You have to do what they. tell you to do. He said he was looking forward to having a hamburger, a shot of bourbon, and sleeping in a regular bed. He was also looking forward to seeing his grandchildren. Martha Moran announced that she was coming to Florida from her home in Baltimore to help her father resettle into the condo he once shared with Emily. Some residents were planning a homecoming celebration for Roswell. So I think that tells you what they thought. Sure.

Yeah. After getting out of prison, he had to take a homecoming celebration for Roswell. So I think that tells you He had to take a driver's test, learn how to eat with a knife again, and how to use a microwave. Roswell told the South Florida Sun Sentinel that he never thought he would die in prison and never had any doubt he would return to his condo. On September 3rd, 1994, Roswell Gilbert died in his sleep at his daughter's home in Baltimore. He was 85 years old. So he was out for what? Four years?

Martha Moran told the South Florida Sun Sentinel that her, Her father could no longer care for himself. He moved in with her and had surgery for prostate cancer in January of that year. He died from a combination of emphysema and possibly a stroke. He was bedridden for the final three weeks of his life. Roswell spent his last few months talking to Martha about his happy memories with Emily. So I found this to be such a compelling story and so different from, you know, most of the stories that we talk about on true crime all the time. You know, it's been 40 years since the death

of Emily Gilbert and still these mercy killings or, you know, elderly euthanasia, those are still heavily debated topics. They are. You know, go back to Jack Kavorkian and all that stuff. Roswell, Gilbert was convicted of first degree murder, but I don't think anyone who knew him questioned his love for Emily. They were married for 51 years. And although he eventually later on said that he shouldn't have killed his wife, he continued to maintain that he did it because he loved her. And he didn't want to see her suffer any longer. And like I said earlier, I think there will be people on, you know, both sides of this thing. A lot of people saying, you know, what he did was wrong. It was legally wrong. He got what he deserved. And there will be. And there will be people. You know,

be other people saying that, but it was right to grant him clemency. And there will be even, you know, another section of people thinking that they can understand why he did what he did. And maybe that if they were on that jury, they wouldn't have convicted him. I don't know. I think you could view this a bunch of different ways. I think it's a tough one. It is a very tough You know, because you want to believe in the law, you know, but you also have this sympathetic part of you. Yeah. Yeah.

It says, yeah, I get the law is the law. But it's the law always right. But you're feeling for her, you're feeling for him. And I get that point, too. I think at the end of the day, the law is the law. And sometimes that's the problem. Right. There's no, there's no wiggle room there.

Because you can't really allow wiggle room. No. because people would take advantage of the wiggle room. Yeah. But then an even bigger problem is that there's no other avenue. And I think that's what he was trying to say. There was no other route. There was nothing else I could do except what, sit and watch her suffer and he wasn't

about to do that. So it's not like some other countries where they have some other avenues to take. Yes. Yes. You know, here it is what we have is the current laws. and we have to abide by him. Or be willing to face the consequences, which I think he, you know, he was.

I don't think he thought he would be convicted. He even said that or that if he was, he would spend that, you know, the rest of his life in prison. But I don't have a problem with either one, to be honest with you, the way everything went down. I think the jury got it right.

I do. Because they followed the law. Yep. And I also think the governor got it right. I do too. And in granting clemency, because the guy was 80 some years old. He was, you know, he only lived four more years.

He wasn't about to hurt anybody. And obviously he didn't after he was granted clemency. So I just found it kind of a different case for TCAB, but very interesting. Yeah. It was something that I know that I was really looking forward to doing. But that's it for our episode on Roswell Gilbert. We got some voicemails, Gibbs. You want to check those out?

Love voicemails. Hi, Mike and Giffie. This is Lynn Wong. I am from Binghamton, New York, and I just want to say, I know you guys always say thank you for listening and donating. I want to say thank you for being on the air and podcasting because you have really helped me with in time of my needs with my severe depression and all the problems I've been dealing with and every time I'm depressed and upset I just listen to you guys all the time and you guys keep my spirits up without you and Gibby I don't know where I would be and I just want to

thank you guys from the bottom of my heart. I don't know how I would make it through the day without, without you guys. I listen to you guys all the time. And I just want to thank you guys so much and I love you very much. Have a wonderful day and take care and be safe. Bye. All right. So it's an uplifting voicemail for us. It is. Makes us feel great. Now, we're sorry that you're going through some of those things that we're going through, but we are glad that we can help in any way for sure. Absolutely. Hey, Mike and Givie. I was going to say, oh, it was on a recent episode.

Excuse me, you guys having me growling, especially you, Fergie. You made a reference to the movie Goodfellas with Ray Leata and Robert De Niro. But I think the way you pronounced it, maybe chuckle a little bit. I think you said Goodfellows, but it just, it kind of me in my day in that instant because that's one of my favorite movies of all time. So it was just an awesome way of hearing that reference on my favorite podcast. And it was great. So it definitely helped make my day a little smoother.

Great movie, great plot, great, great actors, so great everything. But anyways, just a funny little chuckle I have for that day. Anyways, guys, keep your own time ticking. Oh, by the way, this is Jason from Portland. Thank you. All right, Jason from Portland. You know what's so funny about that is I remember saying it. Do you?

And as soon as the word came out of my mouth. I remember thinking, I said it wrong, but I just went with it. Just let it go. And I wondered if anybody would catch it because you didn't. Why would I catch it? You're supposed to be the person who catches it and corrects me. So I'm glad Jason caught it because I knew in my mind that that's, it's not good fellows, it's good fellows. Maybe I did catch it.

I just wanted to let it get out there. No, you're supposed to catch them and help me and correct me or set me straight. Okay. But you don't do it. all right buddy we had no mailbag so that is it for another episode of true crime all the time so for mike and gibby stay safe and keep your own time ticking