True Crime All The Time - Roxanne Houston

Episode Date: October 8, 2026

In 2014, 33-year-old Roxanne Houston was trying to build a new life in the rugged outskirts of Taos, New Mexico. Known for her compassion and intelligence, Roxanne had become part of the local community while hoping to eventually return to Colorado and reunite with her children. On June 13th, she was spotted walking down a dirt road with her backpack and told a neighbor she would be back. She was never seen alive again. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murder of Roxanne Houston. Months later, hikers discovered human remains in a remote area west of Taos, and investigators confirmed they belonged to Roxanne. She had been shot in the head. As detectives examined the people closest to her, they uncovered complicated relationships, conflicting accounts, unusual behavior, and disturbing evidence that would lead the investigation in an unexpected direction. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Hello everyone and welcome to episode 539 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. How are you? Excellante. Okay. Yeah. That's pretty good. It is really good.

Can you be better than that? That might be the tippy top, I don't know. It's kind of the tippy top. All right, man, let's dive right in. You know, on these Thursday episodes, we don't mess around. We just get down. Yeah, we are. We're talking about Roxanne Houston.

Months after relocating from Colorado to New Mexico, Roxanne disappeared while walking away from home on foot. Her body was later found in a shallow, grave in a remote area. So we got a lot to get into. Roxanne Marie Glazer Houston was born on March 17, 1981. She was only 33 years old at the time of her death. Roxanne had four children, but none of them lived with her. Her two oldest children lived with their fathers. Her youngest two children were twins and lived with her parents in Colorado Spring. In 2013, Roxanne and her boyfriend left Colorado and arrived in Carson, New Mexico.

They camped for, you know, some time and eventually moved into a residence in the Taos area. You familiar with Taos, New Mexico? I am not. I'm not, I've been to Albuquerque. Same here. That's the only place I've been to in New Mexico. Yeah. When I was there, and this was when I was young, it seemed really nice.

You could stand in the city, which was blazing hot, look up in the mountains and see the snow. You know, I know Albuquerque has been hit pretty hard, as a lot of places here have in the United States with drugs. But I don't know. It's a gorgeous area. And it used to be a really colorful city, too. I remember all the homes and stuff were painted very bright colors when I was there. I did not remember that, but again, I was young. Yeah.

But also, we have talked about our love of Colorado and how gorgeous that place is. Colorado as well. You're moving from Colorado to New Mexico. According to the Taos News, they lived in a half-buried school bus with a small earth-shaped earth-ship type living room addition in the two peaks area west of the Rio Grande Gorge Bridge. That's interesting. Yeah.

I mean, half buried bus. So what are we talking about? Like you excavate to a certain depth. Yeah. And then you got to bring in a crane and drop this bus in. I'm guessing that's what they had to do, you know. I mean,

I get it. It helped keep that lower, you know, being that into the ground like that. going to keep you cooler in that heat out there. But I'm just trying to picture this. It'd be like getting one of those storage containers that a lot of people like now, right? Yeah. And burying, putting those into the ground and stacking them and configure them however you want. Similar to that. But obviously, a school bus is not that big. So they needed this, what they

referred to as a Earth ship. I don't even know what that is. Maybe like some brown saucer looking like a connection to the bus. Some kind of living room addition. That's what they called it. Roxanne lived with her boyfriend Johnny Hansen, her ex-boyfriend Vern McKeown, who was the father of two of her children and a few other housemates. So that's a lot of people in a bus. It is.

A living room addition. But you also have your ex-boyfriend and your current boyfriend living there with you. Yeah. Very strange situation, I think, to most people. Yeah. I mean, it kind of reminds me of back in the day, you know, those old compounds, you know, where everybody just coexisted together. Almost like a commune type place.

Yeah. Yeah. Peace and love and harmony and all that. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe some people can make it work. I can I could see where there's quite a few challenges that that would arise from a situation like that. Yeah.

According to the Taos news, Vernon McCune raised Roxanne as a child. And they had a sexual relationship when she became an adult. So weird. Very strange. Right. Like, I'm raising you. And now that you're six, 18, 18. I don't know, 18.

Whatever the legal age there was. You know, now you're going to be my girlfriend slash soon-to-be wife. Very, very strange. Right. Now I do feel like it might be some type of commune or whatever. Well, but I mean, to me, that's like, that seems like a grooming situation. Sure does. Right.

Roxanne's estranged ex-husband, George Houston, the father of one of her children, children said that she had bipolar disorder and had been off her medication for some time. She frequently moved between relationships. And we've talked about bipolar disorder, you know, a lot over the years. And I know I've told this story before, but, you know, I did work with a guy who had bipolar disorder. He was very open about it. Right.

And he was also open as to when he was taking or not taking his medicine. medication. And you could tell. You could definitely tell because he acted very differently when he wasn't on his medication. Yeah, I worked with a guy also that was bipolar and exactly how you describe it. You definitely knew when and when when when they were not taking it. And it ended badly for him. He's the one that committed murder. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, girlfriend. So he blamed. He blamed, Blame it on that he did not take his medication, or his attorney's blamed it on the fact he didn't take his medication. Yeah, I get that.

He was convicted? He was. But whose fault is it whether you take your medication or not? It's up to him to take his medication. Yeah, that's a tough argument to make. Sure, yeah. The Taos News reported that after Roxanne and George separated, she filed for a restraining order against him due to alleged violence.

Roxanne was embraced by the Taos community during her short time there. She was known for being a compassionate person. She was a caretaker for her neighbor and participated in distributing food to residents. Pretty hands on it sounds like. Yeah. And, you know, those are great things. It is. To help people out in the community, to help the less fortunate.

Roxanne's children weighed heavily on her. And friends said she spoke often about being a mother. again. And, you know, we talked about it, right? Her kids didn't live with her. That's tough. It's got to be tough for any mother. I would think it would be really hard not to have your kids around. Yeah, especially for, you know, a mother who really loves her kids. And Roxanne was also described as highly educated with an organized regimented demeanor. Really? Something that no one would ever say about me. I've never claimed I was organized. I'm certainly not regimented. Not at all.

It's why I've always said I think I would really struggle or would have struggled when I was younger in any type of military because I just don't do well in very structured regimented situations. I think the first two weeks of basics would have been pretty rough on you. physically and mentally. Yeah. Probably. You know, I'm more of, you know, fly by the seat of my pants type of person. Yeah.

With my scheduling for sure. Neighbor Sunshine Harper told the Taos news that Roxanne also had an innocence about her. She said, I wouldn't say naive because she was highly intelligent. She was a smart woman. But she had no inkling what evil is out there. I mean, there's some people that can be extremely intelligent, but not really had the street smarts or the street savvy of what's really going on. Well, that plus, we've talked about it in the past where, you know, I do think there are a lot of people who want to see the good in everyone, which is an admirable, you know, trade. Right.

But there is evil, right? There are evil people. There are people out there who are looking to do others harm. And if you don't at least have that in the back of your mind, shouldn't dominate your thinking, but just the fact that it could happen and be on the lookout for certain things, certain signs. And that's why we talk about me and Mensa,

but that's why I started that new Mensa program, you know, MNSA, Street Smart. It's thought you were going to call it, call it Mintsa scared straight. We thought about it. Changed it then. Yeah, we thought we'd better just keep it more level set like that. I like that.

Yeah, yeah. Numbers are shooting through the roofs right now. All roofs or just one roof? Through the roofs, plural. That Greg Jemden. Yeah. Yeah. You're really doing good if you got multiple roofs.

That's right. Being shot through. Shooting through. Rock. Roxanne went missing on June 13, 2014. Sunshine Harper was the last person to see her. She spotted Roxanne while driving down the dirt road. Roxanne was walking towards town and told Sunshine she'd be back.

You know, Sunshine Harper would be an amazing name for a meteorologist. It really would be, wouldn't it? Yeah. Sunshine. How's the weather looking this weekend? Terrible. Rainy. Rainy.

Roxanne was reported missing on July 24th by her boyfriend Johnny Hanson. So, I mean, right off the bat, that's well over a month after she was last seen. Yeah. That's a red flag. It's a huge red flag. It's kind of jumping out. Now, he told police that Roxanne left without notice, which seemed unusual because she was employed as a caretaker and left behind her beloved dog. She also didn't have a vehicle.

So it was presumed she left on foot. Johnny thought she would return. But it had been weak since he'd hurt from her. And I think if you're police, right, you're going to take this report, start working on it. I mean, obviously Johnny, you know, has to be a person to be eliminated. He's the current boyfriend. Yeah. So that's going to exist regardless.

But then, you know, he doesn't. hasn't report her missing for such a long time, you know, seems to me that that's going to be in their minds as well. I mean, it's suspicious. I mean, unless you can have a good answer for it, you know, uh, she would take off now and then like this and just do her own thing. But she said she was going here for a month. Yeah. Yeah. And can you back that up somehow? State police contacted Roxanne's friends, but no one knew her whereabouts. On Christmas day, 2014 hikers found a femur in the two peaks area west of taos investigators then exhumed nearly an entire human body again you know hiking right anytime you are somewhere off the beaten path yeah hiking

fishing hunting these are the individuals oftentimes who stumble upon uh dead bodies oh yeah because let's face it, most people, most killers, they don't dump a body on the corner of Fifth and Maine, right? It just, that doesn't happen very often. Now, maybe the mob did. They were trying to send a message or whatever. But most killers, they want to hide the body. So they put it somewhere, you know, remote.

And these are the types of individuals who are more likely to stumble upon it. which would be freaky. Oh, I can't even imagine. You and I have been researching true crime for a very long time. Yeah. But I still can't realistically imagine what it would be like and what it would do to you mentally to discover a dead body when you're just out on, let's say, a nature walk or, you know, something like that. On January 19th, 2015, those remains. were identified as Roxanne Houston.

She was publicly identified on January 29th. Her cause of death was still being investigated, but a substantial head injury was deemed the likely cause. It was later confirmed that she was shot in the head. Okay. So, you know, early on, they see this head injury. I don't know if they were thinking blunt force trauma. Eventually they figured out it was,

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That's C-B-Distillery.com. Code T-C-C-Distillery.com. In early February, investigators announced that they had located and interviewed two persons of interest and that they also seized a vehicle. Investigators were still searching for a third person of interest, who was the former owner of that vehicle. it had been sold since Roxanne's disappearance. So they're really focused in on getting all this, you know, put together, you know,

getting to find out who owned this vehicle, where is that person at? I'm assuming so they can talk to that person to figure out if they were connected or not. Well, but, you know, let's also look at the timelines. It's pretty quick. It is. Right? To develop not one, not two, three persons of interest. I think, you know, where my mind goes.

is this vehicle, right? So they, for whatever reason, they believe this vehicle is involved in something. And then you find out that the vehicle was sold right after whatever happened. Yeah. The crime that you believe happened. When you talk about red flags, you know, that's the type of stuff you look for.

Yeah. I mean, you're wondering, okay, why did they sell that vehicle so quickly after what happened? Maybe it's because whatever happened, she was inside that vehicle. Yep. Or that vehicle was used to transport. Or if a car is taken and gets crushed. Yeah.

Like in the movie. Sure. Obviously, that would be a big red flag as well. Absolutely. On February 12, 2015, authorities charged 50-year-old Ivan Dennings Cales with first-degree murder and issued a warrant for his arrest. Ivan Kales was described as a homeless drifter. Authorities believed he fled the area long before Roxanne's remains were found. And, you know, let's face it, did a lot of killers probably do that?

Not serial killers who have a base, right, that they're operating from. But, you know, if it's a thrill kill or if it's a one-off and I could see somebody, you know, blowing town and wanting to get out. Yeah. Because why hang out? I mean, why take that risk of still being around if and when they find the body? Yeah. Ivan briefly resided at the home Roxanne shared with her boyfriend and others.

So there, you know, now we start to get some of the tie-ins and probably why they were, you know, able to develop these persons of interest so quickly, right? they're looking at the boyfriend. They're probably looking at the X. And then they're going to look at everybody who either lived at this residence currently or had in the past. That's just always going to happen. So then you think, okay, did this Ivan guy have something with her?

Did he get jealous because he couldn't have something with her? I mean, what's the backstory? Well, and that's what investigators have to find out. but they got to talk to him first, right, to even get to that point. So he was interviewed early on in the investigation. Record showed that he was originally from West Virginia. Ivan was active in online forums and wrote that he moved to Touse in the summer of 2014 to start a new life.

He described himself as a survivalist, but not the nut job hoarding food and ammo type. Oh, okay. just a survivalist that doesn't need food or ammo. Which doesn't sound like you're a good survivalist. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Maybe he was just a woods, a woodsman. Yeah. Like to see if he could, or maybe he lived.

I mean, we called him or we didn't call him. He was described as a homeless drifter. Right. So maybe he did spend a lot of time out in the woods, foraging for food. He could build a shelter. I could see that. It happens. Calling yourself a survival.

it's based on that. Law enforcement records and a series of posts on message boards described a child custody dispute, which suggested that he left West Virginia due to troubles. And, you know, let's face it, why would most people, you know, up and leave and to start a new life somewhere else? They're not happy. Or they've got some trouble that maybe they want to try to, try to, you know, escape. And maybe that's what we're seeing here. That could be. Law enforcement in West Virginia confirmed Ivan was jailed for several months in 2009 for violating the terms of a restraining war. On February 23rd, 2015, authorities arrested Ivan at a homeless shelter in Santa Fe. He was living under an assumed name and had changed his appearance drastically. He barely resembled

the photo authorities issued when they first announced the rest. Clearly he knew that somebody might be coming for him. So let's change everything I can physically. Then, you know, it's not something that a jury would look at and say, well, obviously he's guilty. Yeah. But, you know, you add all of these things up, it doesn't look good. No, no, it's not going to come across very well. No, not at all.

in announcing the decision to charge him with first-degree murder, the judge noted that Ivan was linked to the murder weapon and the vehicle, believed to have been used to transport Roxanne's body. He attempted to distance himself from both pieces of evidence by transferring ownership. He then fled and attempted to conceal his identity. The judge did question why investigators ruled out other potential suspects, but still said there was probable cause to charge Ivan. Investigators were still waiting on forensic tests because blood found in the back of Ivan's car could not be linked to Roxanne with certainty.

Additionally, the bullet found in her head could not be confirmed as having come from Ivan's gun. Okay, well. First of all, okay, why do you have blood in the back of your car? Yeah. You know, that's a question, I would probably ask. They're kind of thinking, this is most likely Roxanne's, but they can't say it is for certain. And you know, a lot of times with ballistics, you kind of think, well, as long as you have the gun, you can match it. But maybe not.

You know, sometimes, you don't have the casing, the bullets deformed. I don't know what all the different factors are. witnesses did testify that Ivan attempted to sell the handgun, and he eventually traded it for a rifle. So it's two things, right? He got rid of the car, and he got rid of a handgun. Why would you do that? Because you don't want, you're thinking you can get rid of or hide the evidence.

Yeah. I mean, that's what it looks like. Sure does. It's not slam dunking him into being guilty, but it certainly doesn't look good. The court heard that during questioning, Ivan blamed inconsistencies and lapses in his memory on schizophrenia. He claimed he didn't own or possess a gun. And he said he didn't know when asked if he killed Roxanne, which is a strange answer. It is a strange answer.

Most people would say, I did or I didn't. Right. But I don't know if I did. That's a different type of answer. A deputy testified at the hearing that only someone familiar with the area would know about the spot where Roxanne was found and Ivan Kales was familiar with the area. Roxanne's boyfriend, Johnny Hansen, testified that Ivan moved on to the property in June 2014. Just before Roxanne went missing, she and Ivan seemed to get along. And you asked the question earlier, Gibbs, right?

like what was their relationship, what was going on? You know, I'm sure investigators were trying to get to the bottom of that. But it is strange, right, that she goes missing not long at all after he moves in to this property. Johnny spent several evenings camping by himself in the two peaks area to, quote, cool off after an argument with Roxanne. He returned on June 14th to find her gone in the house in disarray. Ivan and another acquaintance returned and said Roxanne loved with her backpack. Johnny suspected she would return, but she never did. So, I mean, I think, you know, if your authorities, right, you're getting all this information,

obviously they would have looked at Johnny. I think you'd have to. Had to look at him. And so they found out at one point that the two had a fight. He said he left, went camping by himself for a couple of evenings to cool off after an argument. So it had to be pretty bad if he wanted to get away for a day or two to cool off. You would think so. Yeah.

And then he returns home. The house is in disarray. And Ivan and another person said that Roxanne left. Ivan Kale's murder trial started on March 14, 2016. Prosecutors argued that Ivan killed Roxanne because he thought she was a witch who cast a spell on him. Okay. There's a different twist. It is.

So I have a couple of questions for you. Number one, have you ever thought somebody was a witch? Yes. And number two, do you believe anyone has ever cast a spell on you? Oh, multiple. Multiple time. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know who you're hanging out with.

So things could go a multitude of ways with that. It didn't help that I drank that one liquid that one time either at that one event. Very vague, but also confusing. Yeah, purposely. The state also noted that Ivan lied to police in the initial interview about not having a gun. He shaved his head, he grew out his beard, and then he never showed up to his second. scheduled interview with police? Because you knew that it wouldn't go well.

Yeah. I mean, you know, there's two things here, right? Number one, when police know that you're lying to them or they find out that you're lying to them

doesn't make you look good. Yeah. And when you don't show up to a scheduled interview with police, that doesn't make you look good either. Oh. And on top of that, if you're going to shave your head and grow out a full beard,

why are you doing that? Just to look cool. Okay. No, but if you, if you then factor in selling the car. Yeah. Selling or trading in the handgun. Changing your appearance, right? It all kind of plays in together.

Yeah, I think it all adds up. In that first interview, Ivan admitted to scrubbing the interior of his vehicle. He also voluntarily admitted that he found a bone. Okay. Why meant that you were scrubbing your interior? I mean, why do that? Unless there's a reason why you had to scrub your interior. Well, and obviously he didn't do a great job. No, he didn't. Right? Because there was blood found back there. So he said he found this bone. He also said that he found a burnt bra before it was made public that both of those items were found in the Two Peaks area with Roxanne's remains. Yeah. Not looking good. No, because you are giving information that in the minds of investigators, only the perpetrator could know.

And that goes back to what we reference in a lot of the unsolved cases that we do, right? Why do they not put out certain things? And this is the reason why, right? If they put that out to the news right away and then somebody comes in and says it, it doesn't mean as much. No, because they could have read it in the paper. They could have seen it on television. But if it's not been disclosed and somebody comes in and says it, there's a lot more weight to it. Definitely narrows down, you know, suspects.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, if not put it in the pinpoint right on them. Yeah. Spotlight's got to be right on him. Yeah. Defense attorney Thomas Clark told the Taos news that the allegations of witchcraft were nonsense. Tell that to the witches. I don't want to get on the bad side. of any witches.

Yeah. Or wizards or I don't know. Whatever's out there. Anything mythical? Yeah, I don't really want to get on the bad side of anyone who can cast a spell on me. Well, that's why you were a little weird when we were in New Orleans. Oh, yeah. You stayed away from some of the places.

I did, but I did find that place where they had the perfect Gibby doll. Yeah. I feel it all the time. Sometimes when you're at work, I just sit around and... I got that little pinprick in my back. His defense attorney filed a motion, seeking to exclude some testimony, pointing to a witch hunt by Ivan, but the motion was denied. In court, Thomas Clark argued that there were a lot of people with the motive to commit the crime. But I even had no motive.

No, I mean, besides the fact that if you believe what was said, that he... thought she was a witch and didn't want to have a spell put on him. Yeah. Now, is it that he doesn't have a motive or they haven't uncovered it yet? That's probably more likely. Right. I mean, some motives are obvious. Sure. You know, if you're the husband, okay, there's a million different motives that you can talk about, whether it's life insurance money or one to be with someone else, not wanting to have to pay alimony, child support. Those come up in a lot of cases. But they don't have that relationship.

They're not even boyfriend-girlfriend. So what is it? Doesn't mean there wasn't one. Maybe they just haven't found it yet. Clark described the relationship between Roxanne, her current boyfriend, and her ex-boyfriend as a love triangle with one-link dead and two of the male links alive. Okay.

Strange. It's really strange. He argued that then Touse County Sheriff's Detective Robert Salazar, who was a deputy at the time of the trial, failed to confirm the alibi of Roxanne's boyfriend, Johnny Hanson, who was reportedly jealous of Roxanne's ex-boyfriend slash roommate Vernon McCune.

Well, no doubt that was a weird. scenario. It was when all hanging out, living with each other. Yeah, when we talked about it in the, towards the beginning of the episode, we both thought that was a very strange living situation.

Yeah. Not one that I would ever want to find myself in. Me neither. And so when you're looking at motives, obviously you can look at those two guys and, develop some motives. Sure you can. Possibly for them.

But this also goes back to, you know, people claiming that they maybe had a little tunnel vision, right? They didn't look into some of these other suspects. And you'd have to say that's true if they didn't even confirm the alibi of her boyfriend. Okay. That's just kind of police work 101. Kind of problematic, you know. It is. And the defense attorney is going to jump on that. This guy did, rightfully so. The, Defense suggested detectives made mistakes when they didn't search Hansen's truck or gathered DNA evidence from the burnt bra found near Roxanne's remains. Johnny Hansen testified that he spent time with Ivan in the area where Roxanne's remains were found.

So these guys knew each other, but what does that mean? That also means he was familiar with the area. That's true. It means Ivan was, but it also. means by extension that her boyfriend Johnny was as well, Hansen testified that he left his residence on foot for a couple of days after a squabble with Roxanne, which occurred when Ivan was still living them. When he returned, Ivan's belongings were strewn across the property. Ivan told him Roxanne is a liar and I voted her out of the council. Or like that commune like I was, I was

Yeah, yeah. We're a strange episode of Survivor. Yeah. You know, something like that. But we just keep learning more facts and getting more pieces of the puzzle, right? Johnny comes back from this walkabout that he was apparently on after the fight. And not only does Ivan tell him that Roxanne left, but also his stuff is all over the yard. and he's calling her a liar and saying that he voted her out and this and that.

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And when Quince asked where you heard about them, let them know it was true. crime all the time. It's the best way to support the show. Ivan moved about a half a mile away for a house sitting gig, but he kept his belongings at the other residence, so he came around often. Brandon Hethcox, who also lived on the property, testified that before Roxanne disappeared, he heard Johnny Hansen yelling at her. Hansen said, I will not put up with any more lies from you, woman. What, what, that went over? I know how it would go over in my house.

Yeah. Not well. No. Well, obviously there's a lot of tension there. In this house. Yes. Yeah, well, most relationships have some tension. Yeah.

But this one has a boyfriend, an ex-boyfriend. there's a lot, you know, this Ivan guy is in and out, apparently. There's other people living at the house, not to mention the fact that you're in a submerged, half submerged bus, school bus. Yeah, I'm some nighttime, whatever, right? You're in this constrained area. And that's not going to be, even if you like everybody around you, it's not going to be fun. Yeah, we don't have had air conditioning.

There's a lot of things that, that, Don't scream out the ideal living situation, at least for me. And you have to be a big share. You have to be okay with sharing a lot of things in a small space like that. Which you know I am not. No, neither am I. A good chair. Hethcock's also testified that he didn't attend Roxanne's service because he said it was a new age mystic pagan service that went against his religious beliefs.

Okay. So I think you're closer than ever to being right on this kind of commun type aspect. Yeah. There's just a, there was a lot of stuff going on. Seems like it. At this place, two witnesses testified that Ivan spoke about killing witches. Ivan previously lived on Michael Tebow's property. This guy testified that Ivan told him if a Wiccan ever cast a spell on him.

he would have to kill the witch to get rid of the spell. Well, I mean, that's one way to do it, right? If you got a spell put on you, got to take the person and put the spell on you out, I guess. Is it? I do not know all the rules about spells, witchcraft. I always thought Wiccan was something different, more, you know, nature, kind of inspired.

But if you're a wizard, you can reverse some things, or, you know, just call your buddy at the dungeon and dragons next door. I think they got some, like, get a spell from that person. Yeah, or, you know, skip two spots, advance forward, something like that. Yeah, I think that's Candyland. I don't believe that's Dungeons and Dragons. I don't know, though. But it is strange, right?

It is. And you have to wonder, how much of this, you know, did he truly believe in? you know, also did his bipolar disorder and being on and off his meds contribute to some of this thinking. I think he probably played into it for sure. Thinking people were witches and, you know, casting a spell on him. Tebow also testified that Ivan had a 30 caliber pistol. And we mentioned it, right? The ballistics were inconclusive.

Yeah. But it did show that the bullet found in Roxanne's head was from the same class of gun owned by Ivan. And there were individual markings on the bullet linking it to Ivan's gun. Yeah, to say it's the same class of gun, that's pretty. Well, I don't know what they mean by class. I don't know if they mean 30 caliber. I don't know if they, I don't know. I think the more important thing was that they were able to link the bullet to Ivan's gun.

Yeah, but not conclusively. Yeah. So that's going to be up to the jury, right? Individual markings did link it, but the ballistics report was not conclusive. So, you know, that's going to be up to a jury. As a prosecutor, you would want to lay that out in front of them and hope that they just see it for, for face value and not dive into it too deep, right? But defense attorney would be like, well, let me break it down to you and tell you why this

doesn't really mean anything. Yeah. And the prosecution would have their own experts saying why it does mean something. But, you know, I think the science behind the ballistics, it can get pretty in depth. So, you know, as a prosecutor, you got to be careful. Yeah. You want to get the information out there, but you don't want to overload. the jury and make it feel like a, a senior level university class.

Yeah. Where everybody's struggling to understand what the heck is going on. Which could be a problem. Michael, Tebow also gave authorities a calendar and topical graph map of the two peaks area that belonged to. The calendar had a note written in the space for June 13, 2014 that said the day Roxanne left Johnny's. It's such a strange entry to put on a calendar.

It is, unless you need to have that to reference back at some point. For what, though? Why would you? I don't know. I find it strange. I do keep like a little calendar. You know, I write in all of the podcast stuff that we do. Yeah.

When I need to do certain things. Again, maybe it's, maybe it depends on when he put it in there. That's true. how strange it is. Yeah. If you did it the day of, that would be very strange to me. If he did it later on, just so you could, you know, keep a reference of it, maybe it doesn't mean as much.

That's why I do all my, uh, calendaring mentally. Yeah. How's that going for you? Right. Yep, there I do. Just put something in there right now. On the November page of the calendar, Ivan had written DRE skeletal left arm. And apparently D.R.

indicated that he had a dream. Okay. Now, weird. On the map, an X marked a well near the spot where Roxanne's remains were found. The defense argued that the drawing on the map was a note about a dream Ivan had. Inmate Raymond Martinez, who shared a cell with Ivan, testified that Ivan talked about witches, drew pictures of a witch hunt, and told Martinez his victim was a woman. witch. His victim.

A lot of witch talk. A lot of witchery going on. Yeah. Very witchy. Ivan also told him that he believed if a witch cast a spell, they needed to kill the witch to break the spell. Something that you have since confirmed. Yeah.

Got to take care of that witchy woman. Don't know how you know that, but the prosecution presented the pencil sketches that appeared to depict a witch hunt, which were signed by Ivan. So he's an artiste. In a court document, the deputy DA noted that Martinez reported to officials that Ivan talked about burning the body of a witch and cutting her hands up. The document also said that a deputy who intended an autopsy testified during a preliminary hearing that Roxanne's hands were missing. I mean, it's just all tying in. It is, you know, assuming that this guy,

couldn't have gleaned that information from anywhere else. Yeah. That's pretty damning evident. I think so. That on top of everything else that we... Well, yeah, it has to be added with that stuff. Otherwise, it's not going to have the power that it does. Yeah. Defense attorney Thomas Clark argued, like a lot of people on the Mesa, Ivan Kales believed in the supernatural and all those things.

That doesn't make him a murderer. And that's a true statement. It doesn't. There's a lot of people believe in Wiccan and witchery and supernatural. Yeah. I don't know what it all is. He also said in a phone call after trial is quoted by the Taos News. The police should be more concerned about a serial killer out here than Ivan Cales.

And I get that, right? The defense attorney is trying to soften his client up. but how can police not be worried about this guy with all of the evidence that they've uncovered? Good point. He looks good for it. Strong. Yeah. The defense noted that a search of Ivan's vehicle found no traces of blood.

Clothing believed to have blood on it tested negative for DNA. The defense said Roxanne's neighbor, Sunshine Harper, was the most important witness. Harper said that she talked to Roxanne. on the road for about 30 minutes on June 13th, 2014. Roxanne had her backpack and said she was planning to hitchhike into town to meet Vern, to go to Colorado. She didn't know when she would return. That was the last time Roxanne was seen a lot.

I mean, that's an important piece of the puzzle, right? To know last time she was seen. You know, helps you back into some other possible dates and things like that. that. Yeah. And, you know, if Sunshine's telling the truth, this conversation would be kind of important, right, if Roxanne really did say that she was going to meet Vern and the two of them were planning to leave for Colorado. In an interview after trial, Harper told the Taos news that he did not state that Roxy was going to Colorado to be with Vern. As the defense argued,

but that she described Roxy was going to Colorado to drop Vern off and come back to be with John. So I think the defense is either twisting her words and she's clarifying it or she really did say that and now she's saying something different.

Again, tough job for the jury with some of this stuff. Yeah, you got to really weed through a lot of things. Yeah, because it's always the prosecution saying this. Right. The defense arguing something different and vice versa. According to the Touse news, the recorded testimony did not replay her statement on this subject because the defense objected, calling it hearsay. And to me, you know, I don't know if I'm a juror, I'm thinking they don't want it replayed because they know they're wrong. Well, that's that's the problem with

things like this. Yeah. Once it's out there. But now you're, you're only supposed to, to, right, as a, is a juror, make your decision based on the facts. Yeah. But how could you not weigh something like that in? Just common sense. It's going to be hard to do. It tells you that if the defense is objecting to it, it's because they don't want it played. Yeah.

Why is that? And why is that? Right? You got to figure that out. On March 18, 2016, Ivan Kales was found guilty of first degree murder. and evidence tampering on May 12th. He was sentenced to life in prison plus three years for the evidence tampering charge. At the sentencing hearing, defense attorney Thomas Clark said it was shocking.

The jury found Ivan guilty after Detective Robert Salazar testified that the incident could have been a snatching grab. Well, if you ask the question, could this have been a snatch and grab? and a detective says, yeah, I guess it could have been. Sure. Is that some kind of bombshell revelation? I don't think so. I don't think so either. You know, a lot of times attorneys ask questions like that

because they want it said. But what does it really mean? I mean, you got somebody basically hiking, right? Of course, anybody could come along and snatch and grab. Yeah. I mean, but where is the evidence pointing? Exactly. Clark argued for a retrial.

He also noted, since the trial, one woman has disappeared. One woman has been found dead and a man was arrested with another man, referencing the recent disappearance of Touse resident Holly White in the confessions by two men of murdering a missing woman named Naomi Chang. He said, my argument that Roxanne Houston was alive and walking down the road with their backpack on and could have just been snatched and grabbed and killed has become more pertinent and more potent. And the possibility that there is a serial killer in Touse County is now even more powerful than it ever was before, even more powerful than before trial. But can't you argue? Yeah, that can be true. but let's talk about the fact that he's on trial because he has he knows where the body was he cut his hair and grew a beard changed his appearance he he sold his car sold his uh gun or traded his

gun yeah i mean a lot of things point to him more than just a random uh serial killer Yeah. Now, I get the argument that the defense attorney is making, but that's not where the evidence is pointing. No, nowhere near it. These seem to be completely separate murders. He then asked the court to find him defective as an attorney, claiming he made fundamental errors during trial and should have asked for a mistrial.

Maybe setting something up down there. Yeah. Well, let's face it. most of these convicted murderers later claim ineffective assistance of counsel anyway. Yeah. It's almost like he's getting a head start on it. Roxanne's father gave a victim impact statement. He said he was now raising all four children and that prior to Roxanne's disappearance,

she was calling weekly and had intentions to return to Colorado to renew her life with her kids. Roxanne's boyfriend Johnny Hansen also told Ivan Kills, I forgive you, but the truth will set you free. That old saying, huh? It is. Yeah, some people can.

We've always talked about how we thought it would be really hard. Man, you know, here's a guy in Roxanne's father who lost Roxanne has to take care of four children. Yeah, how rough would that be? you know. I'm sure he loves them.

Of course. It's still a lot, right? Especially as you get older, that stuff becomes a little tougher. But they are your grandkids. You would do what you have to do. Yeah. I mean,

what other choice do you have? And I'm sure he probably cherishes it in the time. Ivan lost his appeal to the state Supreme Court in August 2018. In 2020, he filed a handwritten petition arguing he didn't. didn't get a fair trial, he noted the sketches that were found in his cell. While awaiting trial, prosecutors believe the drawings showed he killed Roxanne because he thought she was a witch. Ivan claimed those drawings were based on a movie he saw at the time. Touse County Sheriff Jerry

Hogra told KRQE he believed it was Ivan's interrogation that led to the conviction. And we mentioned it, right? During the interrogation, he said, He claimed that he found a burned bra, he found a bone. And this information was never made public. Yeah. And it was something, at least to law enforcement, that only the killer or someone involved could have known. And I would think that would be very powerful to the jury. It's something that, you know, the prosecution is really going to play up.

They're going to put a lot of weight on that. you know, as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, as of today, Ivan Kales remains incarcerated in New Mexico. The one thing that I did think was a little strange about the trial. And maybe it happened and we just didn't see it in the reporting or it wasn't reported on. You know, this mention of Kales that he had bipolar disorder, that he was, um, not taking his medication all the time. He was kind of on and off of it. I just wonder how much of that was brought up in the trial

because it didn't seem to make it into the reporting if it was. Right. Didn't see a lot about it. And you would think that would be something that the defense would bring up. Now, at the very least at sentencing, now maybe in trial they're not going to bring it up because they're still fighting for an acquittal. Well, that's true.

So that has no bearing. But you would think at sentencing that would be, you know, something that they would bring up. Yeah, because it could help lessen what he gets. Yeah. Try to mitigate the sentence in some way. But that's it for our episode on Roxanne Houston. What do you got, man? Anything?

I was the thing of how fascinating that actually was. The case? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. there was a lot of strange. And when I say strange, it's strange for me and you, right? It may not be strange for other people.

There are other people who, you know, might have lived through situations where they lived with a boyfriend and an ex at the same time. I've never done that. To me, that's, you know, different. And the fact that there was all these people kind of living in the same residence and you have somebody go missing, okay, well, you have a lot of people to look at. That would be a different scenario, I think, you know, to live in a compound like that. I don't know if I could ever do that.

Yeah, it would definitely be different. But here's the thing, right? The prosecution put forward that Ivan killed Roxanne because he thought she was a witch. Yeah. If that wasn't the case, what was the motive? That's a good point. Why did he do it? There was a lot of evidence indicating that he did it.

Right. But as to the why, all we really have is, you know, what the prosecution put out there. And he kind of dismissed that. Yeah. So I don't know. Maybe there was more that that was going on that's just never come out. Only he can tell us. Yeah.

But he probably won't. I doubt it. But that's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and give me. Stay safe and keep your own time. ticking.