True Crime All The Time - Saeed Hanaei

Episode Date: March 28, 2022

Saeed Hanaei was an Iranian serial killer who murdered sixteen women in 2000 and 2001. He targeted female sex workers who were vulnerable and had no legal protection. Saeed Hanaei murdered for religious reasons. He believed that God had given him a personal mission to cleanse the city of what he thought to be “impure” people. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Iranian serial killer Saeed Hanaei. A very disturbing fact of the case is that Hanaei felt absolutely no remorse for what he did, and said that if he hadn’t been caught, he never would have stopped killing these women. Also, there were many in Iran who actually supported what Hanaei did. Even his wife and son, who had no prior knowledge of his murders, supported his actions after they came to light.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 276 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson. How are you? I'm doing good, man. How about yourself? I'm doing very well. Good.

You and I just finished up recording a Patreon episode on Edward 8s. It will come out or is already out, came out on Saturday as this comes out. You know, it's about a dad who murdered his former son-in-law. and then used kind of a novel defense that he weighed too much to have been able to commit the crime the way that the prosecution said that it happened. Yeah, it's just impossible for him to do it that way. He just did not have the physical dexterity to carry it out. We also have a brand new episode out now on TCAT Unsolved. We're headed to California to talk about the murder of Eris and Socialite Georgette Bauerdorf.

Another great episode going back to the 40s in Hollywood. Definitely worth checking out. Yeah. Make sure you check all of that out. If you're not a Patreon subscriber, right now is a great time to sign up. Gibbs, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Jessica Wade. What's going on, Jessica?

Danielle Phillips. Hey, Daniel. Kelly Ford. Thanks, Kelly. Katie Lundmark. Well, I appreciate that, Lundmark. Lisa Kay Payne. What's going on, Payne?

Connie Calderung jumped out of our highest. level. Amazing, Connie. Thank you. Ashley Irwin. Thank you, Ashley. Christian Carillo. Awesome, Christian. Alice. Hey, thanks, Alice. Marcia Nemetz. There's Marsha. Patty Simpson. Well, hi, Patty. Alicia. Good old Alicia. Paula Porkskins. Well, what's up? Porkskins. Rebecca Robbins. Hey, Rebecca. Valerie Young. Appreciate that young. And Dana Rock. Good old Dana. So we appreciate the new support. If we go back into the vault, Gibbs. This week we selected Nick Maitland. What's up, Nick?

So a big shout out to new supporters and everybody that continues to support us on Patreon. We had some great PayPal donations as well from Kelly Grossman. Hey, Kelly. Karen Lowy. What's up, Karen? And Kathy Anderson. Hey, thanks, Kathy. That's all, uh, they all have K's in their names.

I noticed that. How about that? Yeah. I did not notice that. You were smarter than I. All right, Gibbs. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime? all the time. I'm ready. We're actually headed to Iran, someplace that we've never been to talk about

Saeed Hanai, who was an Iranian serial killer who murdered 16 victims in 2000 and 2001. Hanai targeted female sex workers who were vulnerable and had no legal protection. He killed for religious reasons. basically he believed that God had blessed him with a personal mission to cleanse the city of what he called impure people. And I think, you know, what people will probably find one of the most disturbing facts of this case is that, you know, this is a guy who felt absolutely no remorse for what he did and said that if he hadn't been caught, he never would have stopped killing these women. That's a major statement. Well, and I think it kind of goes with two things. Number one, kind of the thought that a lot of us have about serial killers, do they stop on their own?

To a large degree, I do not believe they do. They might move. They might, you know, pick an M.O. That's different or something like that. But I don't think they stop on their own. I think they stopped when they get stopped. Now this guy, he was never going to stop because this was a religious mission to him. Said Hanai was born in 1962 in Mashad, Iran.

Mashad is near the Afghanistan border. It's a holy city in Iran and home to the shrine of the 8th Imam and Islamic saint. This is a city that gets millions of visitors every year who go to see the shrine. In 1979, Iran went through a cultural revolution. Prostitution and drug use were banned and both came with very, very harsh punishments. Police believe that most of the sex workers in the city worked independently, but there were a few businesses run by women in private houses. Saeed grew up in a working class family in a poor area, and his family was very religious.

according to and along came a spider. In his diary, he wrote, Since childhood, I've been blessed by God's love. I've had many accidents in my life, but God has always saved me from getting hurt. He watches over me and helps me in whatever I want to do. According to Said, he never spoke to a woman before he was married, even when his home was full of girls who attended his mother's sewing classes,

his friends made fun of him. But he felt proud that he and his six brothers were seen as trustworthy and well-behaved. He even said he felt embarrassed speaking to women. And Gibbs, this is one of the reasons why, you know, every now and then I do enjoy doing cases outside of the United States. Sure. You know, we learn a lot. We do. People grow up very differently.

in many countries than we do. Different culture. There's a different culture. There's a different way of looking at things. There's different religions that then play or have a big impact on, you know, how individuals grow up, how they act, how they behave. Hanai served as a volunteer soldier in the 1980 through 1988, Iraq War, according to the intelligents or journal.

He viewed his future murder. murderers as a continuation of the war effort. Basically, he believed that sex workers were desecrating the memory of the men who died in the war. Saeed met his wife Fatima during a 10-day leap. He came back to Mashad to visit the shrine. He asked the Imam for a wife and an image of a woman popped into his head. During his leave, his brother was working on his future father-in-law's house. his wife served everyone tea he realized that she looked exactly like the woman he had been imagining

and decided to go through with the marriage so again you know just something different that a lot of us are not accustomed oh for sure too you know you think about what a lot of us experience the dating scene going to bars or going to places you meet people you go on date you see if something clicks and then eventually you meet that one special person whom you decide to marry yeah but then you think about it how it happens in other countries with arranged marriages and you know things like that it seems so far out of the norm for us but it's completely normal for people in other places of the world yeah and they would think what we do over here is not normal well not only

not normal, but I think some would view it as distasteful, right? Going out with members of the opposite sex and, you know, in some cases having premarital sex and things like that. After he returned home from the war, he became a construction worker. Saeed and his family lived in an impoverished neighborhood with a higher amount of sex workers and drug use. He has said many times, that he believed sex workers were what he called a waste of blood. His victims were all sex workers who lived in a working class district of Mashad. Many of them felt trapped by addiction, poverty, and the strict laws they had to follow. We talked about it earlier, right?

Iran is majority Islamic country with very strict laws prohibiting drug use and sex work. married women who are caught performing sex work could be hanged or stone to death. Old school, but very old school. I mean, like Bible old school when you're thinking about being stone to death. But I want to go back to, you know, this description of sex workers. Is it all that different than, you know, what we've seen in the U.S., Canada, you know, even places like Australia. I don't know that it is where sometimes women feel trapped, whether it's because of an addiction to drugs or they're just trying to do whatever they can to escape poverty. Well, you know, some things are just universal, man. You know, things happen here. Other countries,

it's one of the oldest trades in the world. Some would say the oldest or the oldest trade. Or the oldest trade. and people will do what they need to do to find a way to make ends meet for whatever reasons. And sometimes no matter what they have to do, they may not want to do it. Gibbs, to me, I think of people as being survivors. Most people are survivors. When they're backed into a corner, they'll do what they have to do, whether it's for themselves, for their children. And if that means that, you know, turning to sex,

work is what allows them to put food on the table, they may have to do that. Yeah. Iran had a serious opium problem in the early 2000s. Mashad is on the drug route from Afghanistan to Europe and North America. So we're talking about high levels of poverty and unemployment. Sure. Plus easy access to opium. Well, that led to an increase in people who turned to sex work to buy drugs.

And I knew that was an issue there with the opium because I remember watching some of those episodes of arrested abroad. Oh, yeah, yeah. I remember that show. And I remember there was a couple episodes where they were sneaking opium back from there to the U.S. And got arrested. All but one of Saeed's victims had criminal records for drug abuse, prostitution, or both. His trial judge said that his victims were extremely. poor women who lived in financial and cultural poverty until you've seen how poverty is seeped

deep into people's lives. You can't really understand the depth of the tragedy. And that's something that I absolutely agree with. And I think it even goes beyond that. It goes to a lot of different subjects. You can't fully understand a great many number of things until you've actually lived it, been in the middle of it, seen it firsthand. You know, it's one thing to see something on the news or on arrested abroad. And you think, well, okay, I've got a sense of it. But do you really, unless you're smack dab in the middle of it, can you really know how bad it really is? Yeah, I think you're right. Unless you're in the middle of it. How do you really know how it impacts somebody. Yeah, I don't think you can. You can sympathize. You can empathize with people. You can,

but you can never really know the full depth of it. Stats from the time suggested that sex work was on the rise in the city. There were an estimated 30,000 sex workers in Mashad in the early 2000. So it's a pretty big number. And I think because in previous years, prostitution was so minimal. that the authorities never even really gathered any official statistics. The people of Iran blamed the increase in sex workers on the number of foreign individuals and the rising population of young unmarried men. According to an AP news report, the practice of Saihei, which from what I understand gives is like a temporary marriage allows men and women.

to have sex with kind of very little commitment. And from what I read, the marriages can be as short as one hour in length. Get married, have sex, and then say, okay, marriage is over. The marriage is over. But we did everything legally and we're good with, we're good with the law. Now, apparently, from what I understand, it's only practiced by Shiite Muslims, but many Shiite Muslims disagree with this practice. And it does seem to go against, you know, a lot of the things that you think of when it comes to religion.

Yeah. You know, most religions have something to talk about, you know, being married, save yourself for marriage, things like that. You know, this seems like a loophole, right? A shortcut. Something that you don't really normally find in many religions. The Guardian wrote, the story. spider case forced the invisible world of prostitution into the public arena and government officials can no longer pretend otherwise. And the reason why they said the spider case is because

Saeed Hanai earned his nickname the spider killer because of how he lured victims into his home and strangled them with their headscarves. It basically reminded people of how a spider lure its prey into a web. I mean, you hate to say it, but that's just how good he was at what he did. Yeah, I think he was. I also think spiders are really good at luring things into their webs. It's kind of how they survive, right? The difference is he wasn't doing it to survive.

Many believe that Hanai was able to get away with the murders for two years because the police intentionally didn't put much effort into their investigation because of who the victims were. We've heard this time and time again. Man, we have, and it's kind of fascinating, right? When you think about a case from Iran, the similarities with cases that we've done in Australia, the United States, Canada, and even many other places. How many times have we talked about people levying charges towards the police about them not

putting their full effort into investigations because the victims were sex workers. Yeah, many times, man, many times that we've heard that. Initially, residents of Mashad feared that an extremist group was behind the killings. They had no idea. It was just one ordinary man who lived within the city. It will definitely shock them when they find out. And again, isn't that the same way, you know, is it often happens over here? say when a city is in the grips of a series of murders what have we talked about people don't want to

believe it's one of their citizens right they often say well it must be somebody a transitory somebody who's coming through maybe they come through every so often but they ultimately go back to their to their home yeah when it does come out who the person is and that sometimes they're the person next door. They live in your, your plat, your subdivision. You've barbecued with them. Yeah. It's alarming. It's really alarming to people. And it really hits them kind of like a Thunderbolt. One specific incident incited Saeed Hanai to become a serial killer. Apparently there was a taxi driver who believed that Said's wife was a sex worker. And so he solicited her for sex, Said was furious and he made it his mission to cleanse the city of corrupt individuals. I really think Gibbs, this is when he became obsessed with the idea of murder.

Now, I think as a husband, any of us listening would be a little irate. Sure. If a man not only propositioned your wife, but propositioned her thinking that she was a sex worker, propositioned her for money. Either way, you're going to be a little, you're going to be a little upset. Yeah, you could definitely be upset. Now, would it drive me to be a serial killer? No, I don't think it would. At first, he targeted the men who were soliciting sex workers. He basically decided that any woman standing alone in the street was a sex worker. And any man who approached her was a client. But this didn't work out all that well for him.

Probably not as tough as he thought he was. No, it was said that he lost a lot of fights. He got injured by these men. So I think because of that, he decided to begin targeting the women instead. These women had no way to protect themselves from harassment. We mentioned it, right? Prostitution is a crime in Iran. They can't run to the police.

No, they can't report him. they would have been arrested. After he murdered these women, Said dumped most of his victims in roads or open sewers. He left some Gibbs out in the open and wrapped others in garments that cover a woman's body fully from head to toe. Hey folks, who doesn't want to live well? Everybody wants to live in comfort. You want to live in style. Well, Hunter Douglas can help you do just that with their innovative window shade designs, gorgeous fabrics, and control systems that are so advanced, they can be scheduled to automatically adjust to their optimal position throughout the day. You know, maybe you just want to diffuse some of that harsh sunlight.

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with fresh takes, creative ideas, and smart solutions for addressing your windows. That's hunterdouglas.com slash T-Cat, T-C-C-C-A-T-T-A-T-T for your free. design guide. So the following is a timeline of the murders. On August 7th, 2000, 30-year-old Afzani Karimpur was found dead in Mashad. Afzani had a nine-year-old daughter who depended on her. On August 10th of that year, a woman named Layla was found strangled in Mashad near some tomato bushes. The very next day, 35-year-old Fariba Rahim. was found in a yellow burlap sack in a neighborhood in Meshop. So, I mean, just take the first three victims.

We're talking about three victims in four days. Right. Two on back to back days. And then there was a big gap before he committed his next murder. And you always wonder why that is, right? Why the gap? With a lot of serial killers, let's say that are lust type serial killers. You know, we often think, well, they were satisfied.

And I hate to use that word because it seems crass, but I really don't know what other word to use. They were satisfied after doing what they did for a period of time until that frog demon bubbled up inside of them again and they felt as though it was time to strike. On January 3, 2001, a woman named Maso May was found dead near the, Iran-Codro company. A month later on February 11th, 45-year-old Azam Abdali was found dead in Mashad. Asam's parents spoke to producer Mazir Bahari for his documentary and along came a spider. This was a documentary solely focused on Saeed. Azam's father said that they sent her to live with

her future husband's family when she was only 10 years old. It was also said that the family wanted to raise her with them. So she would be one of them. Ten years later, Azam's husband took a second wife and he began neglecting her. Azam had six children and her husband didn't want to give her any money to pay for necessities. Okay, that's pretty tough. First of all, you're cast out at the age of 10. You're cast out at the age of 10. right essentially yeah i mean you know 10 years old forced to leave your family forced to live with a family that you don't know with a person that is later going to become your husband but then he doesn't really want to have anything to do with you and you have six children to take care of to feed what do you

find a way making his meat and then on top of that her husband died in an accident in 1999 so she had to support herself. She had to support her children. She was a convicted drug addict and sex worker. She had been in jail a few times. Her 15-year-old daughter told the Associated Press that her mother had not stopped using drugs, even after the most recent prison release in October 2000. On February 16th of that year, 27-year-old Sarah Romani was found in a tent in front of the Iran Kodro company. So that's that. the second time that we've mentioned that business. Exactly. On March 19th, 50-year-old Sakini Kehanza Day was found in northeast Mashad. She had been strangled and wrapped in a black

claw. Then on March 23rd, just four days later, 20-year-old Coddy J. Fulcassari was found strangled with her scarf in the village of Destabad near Mashad. So look at that timeline. Yeah, pretty consistent, right? Yeah, three, four in a matter of just a little bit over a month, four victims. So, you know, this is a true serial killer. There are a little cooling off periods, but there is a lot of murder taking place in a relatively short period of time. We're also going to be talking about a lot of victims.

On April 12th, 35-year-old Marzier Sadatian was found in a tent on the edge of the road in Kuchan near the Shahid Famida Square. Two days later on the 14th, a 35-year-old woman named Mariam was found strangled in a tent. 10 days later, on April 24th, 31-year-old Azri Hajizade was found on North Kayam Street in Mashat. I'm just going to say you're nailing the names, by the way. Well, I don't know if I am. I am doing my best.

But in April of 2001 alone, Gibbs, he took the lives of three women in the matter of about a 10-day period, 12-day period. On July 3rd of that year, 28-year-old Miriam Beghi was found at Shahid Masavi Boulevard in Mashad, she was found with two other women named Shiva and Zara. All three of these women were strangled. Said believed that when rain came after a long drought, that was a sign from God that he had divine approval for the murders. The Guardian reported that he said in an interview, I realized that God looks favorable

on me, that he had taken notice of my work. He decided he would continue and went on to murder four more women. And, you know, Gibbs, I struggle with a great many of the cases that we do. I actually really struggle with some of the cases where people somehow use religion in backing up the murders that they commit, whether it's a sign from God, they think that God is telling them to purge certain individuals, I really struggle with that. Yeah. Just doesn't seem to be in line with what most of us think about with religion. No, no, it really doesn't.

On July 22nd, 2001, a 21-year-old woman named Leila was found in Mashad. Two days later on the 24th, 18-year-old Mabubai Allah was found on Kuchamp. on's old road. The next victim was a 30-year-old woman named Fierrez-A. Fierreze went out to buy drugs at 5.30 p.m. And never came back. I mean, his numbers are just racking up. He did go in spurts, but there were months where he claimed three, four victims in a

very short period of time. In the age group, it doesn't matter. I mean, I've seen ages from 18 to 50. Yeah, the ages are all over the place. I don't think, you know, Saeed was a killer who had a type the way that we normally think about a type. Right.

You know, most killers when you say, well, they had a type, where you're talking about that because they're lust type killers or, you know, it's completely different here. He is viewing women on the street alone as sex worker. Now, I think some of them were. I think maybe even the majority of them were.

Fier Ruse's daughter, Sahar and Sarah spoke in the and along came a spider documentary. Sahar said that her mom told them she was going to buy opium. But she promised to come right back. She bought the drugs and she called home to let her daughters know that she was coming home, but she never did. Gibbs they waited five days and looked all over the city for her. The girls even checked the cemetery. And eventually their brother and aunt found their mom in the mortuary.

She had been found dead. Somebody had taken her to the mortuary. That is heartbreaking. It is, man. It's also heartbreaking for your mom to say, hey, I'm going to buy some opium. Yeah, I was getting ready to say that. You know, here is your mom stepping out for a little bit because she has to go get her opium that she needs. Well, she's 30 years old.

So, you know, I don't know the age of her daughters, but they can't be adults, right? She's only 30. I doubt that they're anywhere quite near adults. Just a strange conversation to have with your mom. You get that call to say, okay, I've got my opium. I'll be back home soon. Right. But, you know, the heartbreak of, you know, waiting for your mom for five days.

why hasn't she come home? Where is she? And then to find out that she's been located, but she's in the mortuary. Syed Hannai was finally arrested after one of his victims escaped. This woman entered his house for sex, but she was very suspicious of him from the beginning. And when he tried to strangle her, she punched him in the stomach. She escaped and reported him a few days later. She was a fighter, man. Well, a fighter, but then she also had to overcome her fear of being punished, right, for being a sex worker to help stop a killer. So to me, those are two pretty big deals.

Number one, you're going to do whatever you have to do to save your life. Absolutely. When you know you're in trouble, you let it all fly. But now you've got a decision to make. Do I go to the police and try to stop? this guy knowing that I'm going to have to face the consequences for being a sex worker. But that's exactly what she did. Yeah.

And there's no doubt, Gibbs, you have to believe she most likely saved countless other victims because of her bravery. Well, she was selfless, right? She did what she needed. At great risk to herself. Yeah. Which we know was very risky over there, right? Sure.

It wasn't just a slap on the hand. No. No, I mean, you know, if this would have happened in a city in the United States, are you going to get in trouble? Well, sure. Yeah. You know, they're going to do whatever it is they do. You're going to get a charge. You're going to have to go to court maybe or whatever it is. Not the same thing. No. As being punished in Iran for this type of offense. Yeah. So the level of bravery to me is heightened to such. a degree because the consequences are heightened. Now, it was reported that before Saeed was arrested, the Mashad police rounded up about 500 sex workers to try to protect them. But sources don't really go into whether these women were arrested and sent to prison

or if they were protected in some other way. Because you kind of read that first part and you think, well, that's nice. that they know these women are doing something that is not approved of, it's against the law, but they don't want them to die. But if you think that they were all sent to prison, well, it doesn't seem as nice. Yeah, I guess they're still protecting them from a madman on the loose, but they're also doing some hard time. Which one's better? You know, they could rather do some prison time and stay alive.

Yeah, but when you find out that, the guy's been arrested after you've been rounded up and, you know, they caught him, but you're still going to have to do X amount of time. You might not be quite as happy. Parliament took up the case with the highest provincial authorities. Deputy summoned security and intelligence chiefs to plan the arrest. A special squad from Tehran was sent to arrest Saeed Hanai on July 25th, 2001. But Gibbs, I do want to go back to this woman who fought, escaped, and ultimately made the decision to turn this guy in. Again, something that we've seen time and time again in cases all around the world.

How many serial rapists, how many serial killers have been stopped by one brave person who first escaped because you had to do that or had to, you know, accomplish that first. but then made the decision that they were going to go to the police. Because if they didn't, how many more victims would these individuals claim? Yeah, that's a really bright person. And you can only hazard a guess. You have no idea. Was this guy getting better at what he was doing?

Would he have learned from this escape and started to do things differently in the future to make sure that that didn't happen. And maybe he doesn't get caught for a number of years. We've already seen how prolific the guy was in a short amount of time. There's nothing to make you think that, A, he would have stopped. And B, he wouldn't have been just as prolific. Oh, for sure. I think he definitely would have went on to kill more and more frequently.

Authorities announced that the suspect was a realist, arrested after a two-day operation, Said's wife said she hadn't really noticed anything strange going on with him. She never even noticed that anything was out of place in the house. Gibbs, she was shocked when her husband was arrested because, at least to her, he hadn't done anything to arouse her suspicion. And we see that time and time again. You know, again, I hate to keep pointing it out.

But to me, it's interesting when you're doing a case like this in a country that you and I have never been to, we've never even researched a case in Iran. You don't know all that much about Iran. No. But there are so many parallels shining through that we see in case after case. How many serial killers have bamboozled their wives to the point where they had no idea that their husbands were. serial killers, let alone, you know, serial rapists or whatever else they were doing. Yeah, I think this is a universal thing. This happens more than people realize. Well, and I think for wives, it should be a little scary. Very scary. I think I've told you before.

My wife says all the time, because she goes to bed so early, because I stay up so late, she's like, I have no idea what you do at night. I said, I'm working. I'm down here in the studio. I'm playing games, I'm watching TV. She's like, I don't know that. It's like, well, I don't know what to tell you. Right. You know, just because I study horrible things. Right.

In no way makes me want to go out and do those horrible things. If anything, the TCAT episodes proved to me that, you know, even the most careful people get caught. So I told the line because number one, I'm a good person. But number two, you know, I wouldn't like. asked in prison. No. But she did ask me to install a tracker device on your vehicle.

She did. Yeah. Doesn't matter how many times I say it, she still worries about me. Exactly. But I do kind of always go back to the wife in these situations. You know, let's say you've been married to a man for 5, 10, 15, 20. Let's say you've been married as long as I have. You know, I'm coming up on 26 years.

I think I'm a pretty good guy. My wife thinks I'm a pretty good guy. Sure. If tomorrow she found out that I was a prolific serial killer, it would destroy her entire world. Oh, would. And the lives of my kids and, you know, we talk a lot about the victim's families, and rightfully so. Sure. The victims and the victims families they deserve to be talked about.

I don't know that we talk enough about innocent victims of the actual killers. No, that's a great point because we really don't. And if you think about how they must feel knowing that their husband, their dad, their brother committed these horrific crimes, what does it do one? What does it do to their psyche? Well, also, what does it do to the rest of their life? You know, how does that impact their life? So my thought is you'd never be able to trust anyone again.

Sure. If you found out that someone was able to put that over on you for such a, long period of time. And then the second thing is, I think that that stain, that mark, that family name, recognition would follow you. Okay, you go to apply for a job. Yeah. Is John Wayne Gacy your dad? Okay. I don't think you would fit in here at the Xerox Corporation. Yeah. You're not for us. No, I, I just think it does affect them in so many different ways. Said and I made a full confession to the government newspaper on July 28, 2001. In total Gibbs, he confessed to 16 murders.

He said he most often chose his victims while riding in his car or on his motorbike. He solicited them for sex and they agreed on a price. The women often asked him if he had his own place. He took them into his house when his wife and three children were away. at her father's home. He usually picked women up around 5 or 6 p.m. And he said he was never worried about his wife coming home early because when she went to her dad's house,

she packed a bag of all the things she would need. So he knew she was going to stay away for a while. But once they got to the house, he usually asked the women how long they planned to continue doing sex work. Most of the women said they did it because they needed money to buy drugs. And my thought, Gibbs is that was not the answer that he wanted to hear. I think that was his activation trigger.

Trigger. Yeah. Now, was there an answer that he would accept? I don't know. If these women said, I'm planning on getting out of this line of work next week, would he have let them go? I wouldn't have, I wouldn't put money on it. No.

But I do think you're right when you talk about that being the trigger because he said, that's when he would attack them, strangle them with their own headscarves. He said he kept the bodies in the house until dark when he'd finished his evening prayer. Then afterwards, he wrapped their bodies up and dumped them in the streets. He said that for his fourth victim, he dumped her in the street, waited for the police to arrive, and gives he even helped them load her body into an ambulance, pretending to be a concerned citizen. He heard that too, or they want to participate in their own crime.

I know. It's one of the things that really shocked me about this case. I just think some things are universal. It doesn't matter what country you go to. It doesn't matter what language, what religion. Some of these things seem to be universal. Serial killers like to interject into kind of the aftermath of what they've done. Whether it's, you know, just being a bystander and watching the authorities do their work

or trying to help out too much, which we've seen in many cases ultimately gets them caught. In this scenario, he's a concerned citizen who wants to help out. Yeah. Just trying to do the right thing here. When he talked about the woman that escaped, he said, she hurt my hands and punched me in the abdomen before fling. So he got hurt by a lot of men. He lost a lot of fights.

We talked about that. Now, this woman kind of beat him up a little bit. Good for her. I think we're both cheering the fact that she was able to do this. She was able to get away. It's something that you and I talk about quite a bit. Now, are we advocating that women go around punching every man who's a little bit suspect? No, obviously I'm not saying that.

What I am saying is trust your gut. You know, when things appear to be going incredibly wrong, you got to act quickly. And whether that's fighting or whether that's merely running away or blowing your teacat whistle, do it quickly and don't assume that everything's going to be all right. When your head is telling you it's not, something wrong is happening here. Got to listen to those instincts. But Gibbs, he seemed proud when he explained that he was fighting against moral, corruption. According to the New York Times, he told a daily newspaper on the day before his execution,

they were as worthless as cockroaches to me. Toward the end, I couldn't sleep at night. If I had not killed one of them that day, as though I had become addicted to killing them. And this statement fascinates me. It's horrible. It is. It's horrific. But it's how these people think, their victims aren't human to them. As he said, they're as worthless as cockroaches. But then when you dissect the second part, you know,

you talk about killers ramping up over time. He's kind of giving you a glimpse inside, you know, saying towards the end, it got to the point where if I hadn't killed somebody, I couldn't sleep that night. I had become addicted. And I think serial killers,

do become addicted for a variety of reasons. Sure. In a variety of ways. Well, and he thought he was doing good work. Right. So maybe to him, it's the I can't sleep because I haven't done what I'm supposed to be doing. You can look at other killers and say, you know, the lustful compunction to go out and satisfy their needs, drives them.

there's all kinds of different reasons, but I do believe in a way it becomes an addiction for many of these people. In an interview with another paper, he said, I killed the women for the sake of God and for the protection of my religion because they were prostitutes and were corrupting other people. I wouldn't have been bothered, even if I had killed 150 women because I wanted to to clean the holy city of Mashad from corrupt women and prostitutes. After every single murder, I went back to the scene of the crime and helped the police to remove the body. Because he's saying he's a good guy.

You know, I did what needed to be done. And I also helped recover the body. I'm a good guy. He doesn't think he's doing anything wrong. I know. I think that's what is kind of giving me pause here. I'm trying to digest what you're saying. but what you're saying is absolutely correct.

I do believe in his mind. He thought his actions were not just just. I don't even think that's the right word. He was doing a great thing by cleaning up the streets. I truly believe that's what this guy thought. And I also did an interview with journalist Roya Karimi for the documentary and along came a spider. He spoke to her about his first victim of Siam.

Afsane was inside his home, looking at his wife's ceramic flowers on the walls. He grabbed her from behind and tripped her. She fell to the floor. He put his left knee on her back and strangled her with her scarf. He was going to bury her in his yard, but wrapped her up in carpet and used his motorbike to take her out of town. Then he spoke about victim number 13, who he dumped in the street. He returned to that spot at 11 p.m. to see if someone had found the body. And gives when he did, his wife and children were in the car with him. What he told his wife was that someone was selling a car and he wanted to take a look at. Now, he said he went back because he wanted to see others' reactions. And he said he heard some people praising the killer. He said he even heard some of the police officers talking about what a good deed this was. And he said this really made him feel encouraged. So again, you and I have talked about the police being thought to not have investigated the murders of sex workers as vigorously as the murders of some other people.

That's come up quite a few times. I don't know that we've ever heard, though, police officers said to have been making statements about the fact that these murders of sex workers were a good thing. And, you know, you analyze his statement. You know, he overhears these things that the police are saying, that average citizens are saying. And what does it do? It simply reinforces in his mind that, again, what he's doing is the right thing. Yeah, he's buying into it, man. Why wouldn't he buy into it? Like you said, it reinforces the whole ideology that he has behind it. Yeah.

I think you're right. And I said that he thought his last victim was dead. But when he came back after a few minutes, he realized she was still alive. He tied the scarf tighter. And Gibbs, he said he stood on it for two minutes. Just to make sure it was tight as can be. Yeah. And he also said, if any of his victims were still alive after the first attack,

he stood on their necks until they die. So again, he's speaking very matter-of-factly to these newspapers, to these, you know, documentaries. But why wouldn't he, given the way that he's thinking about his murders as a good thing? Why wouldn't he just speak openly and matter-of-factly because he's proud? Yeah, he's cleaning the streets up. Of what he's done. Yeah.

According to and a long-com. a spider, he said, it was revenge. There was no end to it when I was in solitary confinement. I counted 80 more street women whom I had identified. I was looking for an opportunity to kill them. I had surveyed the hangouts of 80 more street women, but I couldn't find an excuse to make my wife leave the house. When she went out for a religious ceremony, I could do my work. So, You know, I take this to mean that like many serial killers, he was constantly on the lookout, constantly targeting, sizing up victims. Waiting for that right opportunity?

Waiting for the opportunity where his wife and kids would leave the house and he felt safe to do what he wanted to do. He told Roya Karimi that at first he tried to stop himself from killing by thinking about his children. He even drove by the prison once a week and wondered when he'd be arrested. But he said, even with all that, he never felt any remorse. He wrote in his diary about murdering the women and burying the bodies. He felt as though he needed to confess. But then he would burn the writings afterwards. So that was his way of confessing what he had done. there's a little bit of a dichotomy there for me.

I think so. Gibbs, if he truly believed that he was doing God's work, if he was doing what God wanted him to do, why would there be the need to confess and write it down in a diary and then burn it later or afterwards? Oh, I think you're right. You know, why would you do that if that wasn't the case? Yeah, I think we said earlier,

he felt as though this was what God was telling him. him to do. He just needed to do what he felt he had to do. Well, that's one way to look at it. I think the other way you could look at it is this is what he wanted to do. And maybe some of this other stuff was really more of a way to make it seem as though it was okay. The mission. All of that. Did he truly believe that or did that come out later as kind of a almost like a cover to make it seem as though he wasn't quite as bad a person as what he really was. After Hanai's arrest, a female victim was found on a road near Tehran. On July 30th, 2001, a second female victim was found in Tehran. Like Hanai's victim, she had been strangled with her headscarf.

And then in August 2001, a third woman, 33-year-old Zara Doddhous Ravi was found dead in Tehran. The police announced that they believed these were copycat murders. The police commander said that three suspects had been arrested on suspicion of carrying out the murders. Irna, the official Iranian news agency said, the latest murders prompted the papers to question the truth of Said's confession. So to me, that, that almost sounds like they're not quite believing the copycat killer story. They're almost thinking the person is still murdering.

Saeed confessed, but he didn't commit all these murders. Right. That there's another person. What I would say is, if there were truly people in the street who were saying that these murders were a good thing. I could definitely see where you could have some copycat killers. Try to continue on this work. If there were people who truly felt as though these were good deeds,

and I don't know how else to say it. Obviously, we know they're not. No, but some might have believed that they were. Saeed Hanai's trial began in October 2001. It was a pretty sensational trial and made headlines all. over the country. Said and his lawyer cited a provision in Iranian and Islamic law that refers to sinners as a waste of blood. He'd used that term before. The defense used this law as justification for leniency. However, the judge noted that this law can be very ambiguous. It's difficult to apply to

criminal defense cases and it doesn't necessarily justify murder. At trial, he and I confessed to having improper relations with 13 of his victims, basically Gibbs doing the very thing that he murdered these women for. Yeah. He justified his method, but couldn't justify what they did. And I think this was kind of a big revelation when it came out. Other sources said that he denied having sex with the women until just the day before his execution, but even despite this admission, whenever it came out, people still supported him.

And, you know, we've talked about a lot of parallels. This is not one of them. You know, you're not going to have an infamous serial killer here in the U.S. or in most other countries where people are going to come forward and say, hey, great job, man. I really like what you did. Yeah, glad that you did this, did this, did it. You're just not going to have it. Shaid admitted that he had at least 80 more people on a list of victims. We've kind of thrown around this 80 number. Sure.

Right. That's just the people that he already had targeted. Yeah. Big list. It's hard not to believe that he could have killed all 80 of these individuals and continued to compile the list. And if not, you know, caught reached Astronaut. astronomical numbers, 100, 200, 300. I have no idea. I think he would have hit those numbers,

if not stopped. Said was found guilty of murder and also found guilty of theft and forging papers that introduced him as a member of the morality police. In these papers, he claimed he was working for the office for promotion of virtue and prevention of vice. He admitted in court that he used the papers to harass people who engaged in deviant acts, such as unmarried couples who went out in public together or women who didn't cover up properly. So you can't go out in public together as an unmarried couple, but you can murder 16 people and you can have sex with 13 of the sex workers

you murder, a little bit of hypocrisy there. I would say so. And that's probably not even a strong enough word. I'm trying to think of a stronger word, but I don't know that that revelation that, you know, he had sex with so many of his victims. To me, Gibbs, it kind of flies in the face of, you know, all of this rhetoric that he was putting out about why he was doing what he was doing, the rationale or the reasoning that he was using to believe what he was doing was the right thing.

This doesn't seem to add up. No. I did find it interesting that the trial went pretty fast. I mean, it started in October and it wrapped up on September 23rd. Pretty quick. Yeah, I mean, pretty quick. You know, I actually thought maybe it would go even quicker over there. You know, I kind of had this in my mind that in Iran justice or what they considered to be justice wraps up fairly quickly.

but on September 23rd, 2001, Saeed Hanai was sentenced to death. You know, this is an important case because it exposed cultural issues in Iran. It also caused a divide between the majority who condemned the murders and the outspoken few who supported Saeed. And my understanding Gibbs is that this man was considered a hero by some Islamic militant groups. And that's the difference between committing that type of crime there and committing it in other countries. Well, that might be the one where there actually are some parallels.

Now, if you think back to somebody like Timothy McVeigh, Gibbs, there were actually people in this country who thought what Timothy McVeigh did in, you know, blowing up the federal building, murdering, gosh, however many people he murdered. was a good thing. Yeah. They kind of praised him for it. It was sick. Thankfully, it doesn't happen a lot.

No. Over here or in many countries. The Guardian reported that one conservative newspaper wrote, who is to be judged? Those who look to eradicate the sickness or those who stand at the root of corruption. And there were a number of papers that reported that many people were happy with the killings. And again, it is kind of hard to believe. one of Hanai's friend said he did the right thing, he should have continued. So, okay, I get it.

This guy's a friend of yours. But I think it really tells you something that this number of people were actually okay, not just behind closed doors saying, hey, good for him. They were willing to come out to the newspapers with their names and stuff and say these things. One man told the Associated Press, God may bless him for killing corrupt women. Killing prostitutes causes fear among them and forces them to stop corrupting our people, especially the youth. And Gibbs was reported that even Henni's 14-year-old son Ali was proud and said his father was cleansing the country of the corrupt of the earth. If they kill him

tomorrow, dozens will replace him. That's what he said. And he went on to say, since his arrest, 10 or 20 people have asked me to continue what my dad was doing. I say to them, let's wait and see. If that doesn't blow you away, you know, I don't know what would. This kid's 14, right. But again, I do think we have to keep in mind. There are some stark cultural differences between I think what you and I are used to here in the United States. There's just no way around it. Yeah, I mean, no doubt. Big time cultural differences.

In the documentary and along came a spider, it came out that Said told his son in court. Every time I saw those women, I thought they were stomping on the body of a martyr, that those women were standing on his neck choking him. When I thought of it this way, it drove me crazy. I couldn't rest without destroying them.

They also said that his brother, Jalil, said in an interview, those he killed were not human beings. Said destroyed moral corruption. If they'd been human beings, he wouldn't have killed them. But frankly, a whore doesn't have an ounce of humanity.

That's how it is. Saeed is not a murderer. So, I mean, I think what it goes to show you Gibbs is, you know, this was not a fringe element, right? This was not just a few people. And it wasn't just his family. We're talking about his family now. Sure. It sounds to me like there were quite a few people who agreed with

what Saeed Hanai did. Definitely had his supporters. And it wasn't just men. Even some women supported his actions. His mother told producer Maziere Bahari, God knows what's going to. He's going to to happen to him. His wife said, when a woman rides a motorbike with a man, she doesn't know at all, the punishment for this woman is nothing less than death. We're not even talking now about being a sex worker. We're talking about a woman riding a motorbike with someone. Extreme. It's very extreme. It's not what we're used to. On the documentary, she said that her feelings for her husband didn't change after she found out what happened. I've never known him to do anything wrong since we married. His wife thought that they would be treated as outcast, but whenever she and her son went out,

people told her she should be proud of what her husband did. So, you know, we talked about it. He committed his crimes while his wife and son were away. Yeah. I believe he thought that they would not approve of what he was doing. Well, when all, when everything was said and done and they found out, it sounds like they did. They were not only okay with it. They were proud of him. Yeah. They almost feel like they looked up to him. Yeah. And not just them. I think a lot of people did. And that's kind of a very sad thing. But the vast majority of Iranians condemned Saeed Hanai for the murders. Reformists use the case to push for relaxation of some laws, but their opponents argued that if they relax the laws, Western or secular influence may corrupt people further.

The Iranian Supreme Court affirmed Saeed's descends. He later said that he was psychologically tortured and forced to confess to having sex with his victims so that his more conservative supporters would turn on him. Maybe true, maybe not true. what do I always say, Gibbs? It's hard to believe anything that comes out of the mouth of a serial killer. Yeah, absolutely. I have trouble believing just about anything they say.

At the very least, you know, like always, you have to take everything with a grain of salt. I just always feel like there's some motive. There's something for everything they say. And it culminates for me with them wanting to make themselves seem better than what they really are. Okay, he's fine with admitting that he killed all these women. But when it comes to whether or not he actually engaged in sexual activities with some of these women, no, no, no, no, no, can't have that. Right. Because then the people won't support his action.

Exactly. Now he's not that good person that some of these people thought he was because he was cleaning up the streets. 39-year-old Sae. Hanai was executed on April 8th. 2002, according to the Guardian, he screamed in protest on his way to the gallows. He had believed that up until this point, someone in the government would pardon him or overturn his death sins. Saeed was hanged in the early morning hours at the prison compound. No members of the public were allowed to witness the execution.

Well, that happened pretty quick as well. Well, and that is something that differs greatly, right, from, what we experience in most of the cases that we do, he was sentenced to death on September 23rd, 2001. He was hanged on April 8th, 2002. Nowhere, especially in the United States, would you ever find an execution if they even carry them out? Yeah.

In the states where people are on death row, you'd never find one that would happen that quickly. Never. Now, you would, if you go back a bunch of years, right? In the old days, they used to execute people very, very quickly. I think most of us have learned it's probably a good thing that they don't with the with the number of convictions that have been overturned lately. I don't think anyone wants to see a human being put to death, regardless of whether

you believe in the death penalty or not. Nobody wants to see a human being put to death for something that they didn't actually do. No. That, that would be just unbelievably horrible to, and we know it's happened. Said's first gravestone read, Hanai, a man who preferred a dignified death to a humiliating life. If I removed corruption, it was for the good of the people. Then in August 2002, he received a new gravestone due to the controversial inscription. Government officials had a new gravestone installed that read the blessed soul, Said Hanai.

So apparently the government didn't like the, the message that he was trying to send there on that first one. Yeah, I don't think so. In 2002, Ali Hanai told the Associated Press, I'm not sad that my dad is dead. I'm sad because he failed to achieve his goal. I'm a little worried about this kid.

Gibbs, I got to be honest with you. Yeah, there's some concerns there for sure. His way of thinking, is troublesome. Bahari, who produced the documentary on the case titled, Anna Long Came a Spider,

called Saeed a murderer by nature who was catapulted to folk hero status by religious extremists. And I was living in a very claustrophobic environment. And he could somehow justify his killings through ideological slogans that are acceptable in that environment. He is basically a terrorist. He's not as technologically advanced as some, but the result is the same. Gibbs, as we wrap up this case, you know, I did think it was fascinating.

Some of the parallels that could be drawn between this case of a serial killer and Iran and some of the cases that we've done in other places around the world. There were more parallels than I thought there would actually be. I was shocked as well. Yeah. Now, there were some very sharp. contrast as well, which I expect. But in the end, you know, Saeed and I was a guy who allowed his personal convictions to turn him into a murderer. If you believe what he said and you take his words

at face value, he was so offended and disgusted by sex workers that he murdered 16 women, taking them away from their families, from their children. We mentioned it. Some people actually supported this guy and what he did. But by a little, large, most people condemned the murders. The murders caused outrage and calls for reform throughout the country. The spider killer, which Saeed Hanai is known as, remains one of Iran's most infamous murder cases. Definitely a fascinating case. Yeah, I thought it was. I really did. Scary case, when you think of this guy being able to murder 16 women and already having a hit list of 80 more that he no doubtedly would have worked through. If he had not been caught,

how many more would he have added to the list? How long could he have gone on? It's a scary notion when you think about it in those terms. That's it for our case on Saeed Hanai. We've got some voicemails, Gibbs. Do you want to check those out? Yes, check them out. Hi, my name is Jordan New. I just sent you got an email, but my mother, she watches your podcast all the time and she always hears the voicemails at the end and she's always wanted a birthday shoutout. Her birthday is this Sunday. It is March 27th. She will be turning 38 and I think she will really love to hear me on the voicemail like you guys giving her a shout out. So I just wanted to put this voicemail in. So hopefully you guys hear it. Again, her name is Georgina Ortiz. She will be 38th this Sunday, March 27th. And yeah,

thank you guys so much. I also sent an email in. Thank you for listening to this. And thank you if you read the email. But yes, I appreciate it so much. Thank you so much. Have a great day. So we did read Jordan's email and then looked for the voicemail. And I wanted to play Gives. I mean, you know, these touch me because, yeah, you could go out to Nordstrom. You could buy your mom a nice handbag. You could buy her a nice scarf. She's going to love that. But to figure out what she's really into and then to do the research to find the website

and figure out how to leave a voicemail and send an email, okay, Jordan put in some work, man. he actually said in the email he doesn't listen to the show he just knows his mom does and she loves it so you know happy birthday georgina i hope you're proud of your son because uh he kind of went all out he did i think it's really cool yeah hi guys uh i love you both um i'm calling from patucket rhode island that's p a w t uc ket but because of our rhode island accent we just say Puttucket. First, I'm laughing hysterically that Gibby has to explain to Mike how much is an inch of rat poisoning in a coffee cup during the Nanny Doff episode.

It was quite the role reversal there. And second of all, I want to tell Mike that we do have milk delivery, fresh milk delivery. At least we do here in Petucat. It is Monroe Deary. And the milkman comes in his milkman. form it's not white anymore with the matching hat and they put the fresh milk in your insulated gray box on your porch and you put the empties back in the box and he pushes them for fresh milk so I just wanted to let you know it still exists and thank you so much for all that you both do

love you bye bye hi love the voicemail I actually have received Gibbs a number of voicemails a number of emails from people. Now, a lot of them have referenced the same company. I can't remember. It wasn't this one. It was a different company. So there's about two or three companies that people have said still do this. It's very cool. I have never seen it around here. And I'm still suspicious of your telling of the story. I'll get you some fresh milk, man. I can get you some fresh milk. That doesn't mean a guy came in delivered. I know a guy who doesn't. I know a guy who doesn't. I know. You always got a guy. Yeah.

Hi, Mike and Gibby. My name is Paul Chanel. I live in Fisher, Illinois, population 2000. Just want to tell you guys, I love your show. The chemistry you both have between each other is easy to listen to. You guys present amazing, interesting facts. A lot of unknown information. Personally, I've been a fan of true crime, serial killers, and all that stuff since I was like 12 years old.

I was, I read Helter Skelter in, in 1975, and that was my first true crime book. I was 12 years old at that time, so I'm 58 years old, and I'm just always been fascinated by serial killers and how they think and what motivates them and everything else. And the first podcast I ever listened to, ever, any type of podcast was yours, and I cannot stop listening to it. currently on number, I think, six or seven, and I'm looking forward to listening to every single one. Keep up the good work, gentlemen. I'm proud of you both.

I'm hoping you'll do on Charles Whitman. And I know you've got a lot on your plate, but he'd be a fascinating study for both of you. All right. Keep your own time ticking, guys. Love you. Bye. And he's got a long way to go before you resist. He does.

He does. But imagine when he gets there. Yeah. Be like, did I leave that voice? smell? I must have. When he hears it like two years from now? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But we appreciate it very much. Kind words. Charles Whitman is a good case and it's on the list. I know we'll, we'll do it at some point.

We had no mailbag Gibbs this week. So that's it, buddy. Well, we got plenty of liquorish last. We did. We have enough liquorish to last us about until Christmas, probably. Yeah. Yeah. So that's it for another episode of True Crime All the Time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.