True Crime All The Time - Samantha Josephson

Episode Date: May 21, 2026

In 2019, Samantha Josephson, a college senior, was kidnapped and murdered after mistakenly entering a vehicle she believed was her Uber after a night out in Columbia, South Carolina.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Samantha Josephson. The case became nationally known because it highlighted rideshare safety concerns and eventually inspired state and federal legislation known as “Sami’s Law.”You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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It's time to turn those what-ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash T-Cat. Go to Shopify.com slash T-Cat. That's Shopify.com slash T-C-A-T-T. Hello, everyone and welcome to episode 499. of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. How are you?

Hey, I'm doing good. Doing good, man. How about you? I'm doing great. Yeah. So $4.99. Yeah. Which means Sunday's episode is 500. It is. It's a big milestone for us. I mean, we have been doing this almost 10 years. Yeah. Which is hard to believe. But it also means it's time for a really big case. Because on the big milestone numbers, we always do a really big case. And I won't spoil it by giving it away. But it's going to be a multi-parter and we're going to do them all on video and audio.

I'm excited. Plus, my contract, it says on episode 500, I get a steak dinner that night. So I think you've had enough dinners, free dinners. Is that a bad subject? Ten years of free dinners. That's a more subject at this point. Nah, no,

it's all right. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? Yeah, I'm ready. We're talking about Samantha Josephson. In March 2019, college senior Samantha Josephson was kidnapped and murdered

during a night out with friends. When she got into a car that she mistakenly thought was an Uber. So, I mean, that's scary, first of all. Yeah. But her case led to the passage of both

state and federal laws enhancing ride share safety. Because, you know, let's face it. And what you and I have talked about it many a time, there's something that comes out. And let's say it's new technology, a new service. Everybody loves it. Yeah. Right? They do.

What you don't think about or is kind of what's the dark side or what could be the dark side of things, you know, think about the internet. Yeah. I mean, who wasn't fascinated with? with the internet, but there's a lot of danger that comes with the internet. There is. What happens is we figure out, okay, what the danger is. And then we put something in place to try to prevent it from happening again.

Samantha Josephson was born in Princeton, New Jersey to parents Seymour and Marcy Josephson. She lived in Robbinsville, New Jersey. I wonder if you're born in Princeton. Are you automatically just a little bit smarter? I would say no. No. I'm going to say no. That's like, you know, if you're, you're born in Boston near Harvard,

are you automatically a little bit smarter? I like these apples, I think so. Maybe, maybe. Marcy Josephson said at a court hearing that the family called Samantha Sweet Peepie. She was bubbly, kind, and full of life. And Sweet Pea is kind of a cool nickname, I think. Not for me, but I was just checking. Yeah.

I don't want to be called Sweet Bee. We can call you Sweet Bee. No, I don't want to. We can probably get that going. I don't want to start that. But at the time of her death, Samantha was a senior political science major at the University of South Carolina in Columbia, Columbia, South Carolina. I think it's Columbia. Yeah.

Yeah. Nice little town. Yeah. You know, University of South Carolina, they're in the SEC. they have one of the, to me, what is one of the strangest nicknames, the game cocks. Gamecocks. It seems like kind of a strange one, but. Fancy bird?

Yeah, I don't really know what kind of bird it is. I do know that there are people in the student section at like football and basketball games that have hats that say no one can lick our cocks. I do know that. And I always got a chuckle out of that. You always, maybe a little sophomore, but I did. Do you wonder when they, like the marketing team, hey, I don't know what the logo is going to be. Is there somebody in that room snickering? Yeah.

Maybe we shouldn't, guys. And somebody came up with that, you know, that statement. Yeah. Samantha's father, Seymour Josephson, said that she enjoyed her time at the university. She absolutely loved it there. She was a game cup. Yes. And I think people, you know, they really, a lot of people do.

They get just so entrenched in their university. that, you know, you go to the football games or the basketball games or whatever it is, I mean, that becomes a part of you. I mean, it is a big part of your life. Yeah. So, I mean, I think, you know, I mean, around here, if you go to Ohio State, I mean, these people, they're Buckeyes. You're a Buckeye.

And even if you don't go there because you live in and around that area, you're a Buckeye and you're where the scarlet and gray colors and you fly the flags and that. I wonder if it has to do, you know, whether it's a bigger school or a school that's known for a certain sport. Yeah. If that plays more of a role into it because we have smaller schools here around us and nobody really talks about like, oh, they're a big fan of that place or that place was awesome or. So maybe that has something to do with it. It probably takes us think about, you know, I mean, I can't see over here, but I can. I don't know why.

It's great. It's good pod, but I don't know what you're doing. You know, I mean, oh yeah. Yeah, I mean, you're a huge. I didn't even go to Kentucky and I'm a huge Kentucky barque. Yeah. Fan. At the time of her death, Samantha had been working at the Liberty Tapper, a brewery and grill for several months. She was in a long-term relationship with Greg Corbushly, who said Samantha was the love of his life. Samantha was murdered in the final weeks of her last semester of college. She was preparing for an exciting new chapter after graduation.

And obviously it's tragic anytime a young person loses their life. And obviously we're going to talk about that more. But then you think about a couple of things. First of all, you know, what was that person going to go on to do? Well, you're not going to know because their life was taken. away from them. But you think about being just a few weeks away from graduation. Right at the finish line.

And what that is like in your mind, whether it's high school, college, whatever, that's like one of the best times. You know, like you can see the finish line. And you're just kind of coasting in because most of the stuff is already done. You might be finishing up some exams and things like that. But I don't know, it adds like an extra tragic layer to it. I agree with you. Yeah.

Samantha wanted to be an attorney and had already been accepted into two law schools. She wanted to practice human rights law or international law. You know, that's, that's, that's awesome. I love international law. Yeah. I know you've dabbled in it from time to time. I don't know how you have time with your medicine practice and all the other things you have going on. All the side gigs, Rex West,

has, I know. But there's no doubt that, I mean, she was, she was an intelligent person. She had recently told her parents that she was offered a partial scholarship to Rutgers Law School in New Jersey and Drexel University School of Law in Philadelphia. That's impressive. Yeah, it is. Her parents plan to come to Columbia to surprise Samantha on March 31st, 2019. On the night of March 28th, which was a Thursday, Samantha went out with her roommates in the five points area of Columbia, which is a nightlife hub in the city.

They were out into the early morning hours of March 29th, 2019. Well, I'm sure it was hopping and whatever the cool words are today, but I'm sure it was like... Hopping probably wasn't it, but I get what you're saying. Yeah, I mean,

you think about any big college, the nightlife scene is usually pretty healthy. healthy that's a great word for it yeah and the fact that they're out into the early morning hours of the next day doesn't surprise me at all because i remember being in college and that's just kind of how things went plus you know it's coming to an end right the school year so you know people unwinding and you're probably celebrating even just a little bit more yeah she was with her friends between 1.30 and 2 a m at a bar called the bird dog Samantha somehow got separated from her friends. So she decided to call an Uber around 2 a.m.

She was captured on surveillance standing outside a bar. At one point, she approached a car, but it was not her Uber. Then a newer model black Chevy Impala pulled up to the curb. Samantha mistakenly thought it was her Uber and got into the back of the vehicle at 209 a.m. The car drove off with her and saw. And, you know, let's talk about Uber for a little bit. And there are other companies as well, right? Lyft and some other ones that have been around here and there. But, you know, you think about Uber or before the days of Uber.

Yeah. You know, when we were younger, and if you needed to ride somewhere, you better have a friend or a parent or somebody because there was no stranger who for money was going to come pick you up. Now, maybe there was, but it wasn't regulated or legitimate or, you know. Like you said, you had to know somebody and could find a pay phone, a call them to come get you because that's how it had to be. Yeah. And unfortunately, I think probably what that did was it, it did lead to a lot more people driving drunk. It did. When they shouldn't obviously have been driving. I think Uber maybe went a long way with that because people stopped just driving to bars altogether. They would get an Uber to go to the bar knowing they could drink, do whatever they

wanted. Then they would just call an Uber or some car service to take them home later. I mean, look, there was a period of time, and, you know, right before the podcast started, that you dabbled because you just wanted to experience it. which is another story, but you wanted to experience it. So you ubered for a little bit. And boy, did you have some great stories. It was fun. Yeah, we loved hearing you come into the office, you know, the next day.

Yeah. And tell us about your Ubering the night before. I ubered for a whole summer, mainly because I was bored. Yeah. And I was looking for kind of something else to do. But then what happened was I took all the money that I made from Uber. And that's how I bought the podcast equipment. You did.

Yeah. And that's what led to the podcast. So, but it, it was fun. I'm not going to say it was fun every single time, but it was interesting. Yeah. There's no doubt about that. And I know you picked up your fair share of people that were drunk. Oh, a lot of, yeah, a lot of people were drunk.

Yeah. Yeah. So Samantha gets into this car. It drives off. Hours later, Samantha's roommates became concerned when they couldn't get in contact with her. Samantha's boyfriend, Greg Corbishly, was also worried. He was over two hours away in Charleston, South Carolina, where he had moved after graduation. Now, he had been on the phone with Samantha throughout the night and later said he was tracking her phone to make sure she got home safely.

He said he knew something was wrong moments after she got into the car. He tried calling her, but she didn't answer. He went to sleep thinking she left her phone. in an Uber. When he woke up, he learned she was missing and he drove to Columbia. Right there. What a nightmare. Yeah. It would be. Yeah, you're a little worried. Eventually, you got to go to sleep, right? You can't get in contact with the person. You're obviously probably not thinking that the worst has happened because most people don't think that. But what a shock to wake up the next morning and find out that she's missing. At 1.30 p.m. on March 29. Samantha's roommates reported her missing after failing to get in contact with her.

At 3.45 p.m., officers from the Clarendon County Sheriff's Office, 65 miles southwest of Columbia received a report that two turkey hunters found a woman's body in the woods off a dirt road near the town of New Zion. And it doesn't surprise me, Gibbs, that hunters would find a body. I mean, how many cases have we done where victims' bodies have been found by hunters? It's a lot. It's a high percentage. It really is a high percentage. And I think there's a reason for that.

You know, if you think about where some killers decide to dispose of bodies, but it's usually in a place that they don't think anybody's going to be visiting anytime soon, well, where the hunters usually go? places where not a lot of other people go. Yeah, they want to go to those less populator or non-populated areas so they can find the whatever they're looking for. Hunting. Yeah. I mean, I don't go hunting, but I'm assuming that's a good strategy. Yeah.

The body was found in a heavily wooded area with farmland nearby. Few people lived in this area. Investigators said someone would have to know how to get to the spot where the body was found indicating that the killer was familiar with the area local local we hear that quite a bit right if it's off the beaten path something that you know someone not from the area would even have an idea about a lot of times it does give the police that indication that this has got to be someone from around here or else they would have had no way to know about this place the body wasn't immediately identified, but by the early morning hours of March 30th, the victim was

identified as Samantha Josephson. Samantha had wounds to the head, neck, face, upper body, leg, and foot. A coroner's report listed her cause of death as multiple sharp force injuries. Around 8.30 p.m. on March 29th, the Columbia police issued a missing personal alert. For Samantha, with a photo and surveillance image showing the black Chevy Impala. Around 3 a.m. on March 30th, an officer pulled over a black Chevy Impala just two blocks from the five points area. The driver attempted to flee on foot, but was caught. He was identified as 24-year-old Nathaniel rolled. So, you know, never good, right?

police try to pull you over you immediately jump out the car and try to run for it. It doesn't scream out, hey, I'm an innocent person. Not at all. It's like, oh shit, you found me. I got to make a run. Yeah, because why else are you running

for it or making a run for it? And then it got worse because officers searched the car and they found a large amount of blood in the trunk and interior of the vehicle. Testing confirmed. It was Samantha Josephson's blood.

So here's this guy that as the car she got in, he looks like he's trying to make another attempt, right? He's down there by the five points. Sounds like this is something that he might like doing. Yeah, or because I can't imagine that he's trying to pick somebody else up with a bunch of blood in the interior. I'm thinking this is not that long. after he just hasn't cleaned up yet.

It just hasn't cleaned it up yet. That's what I'm thinking. But you, I don't know. Could be wrong. Yeah. You know, it's dark out. I mean, lights come on when you open the, the doors, but maybe somebody gets in.

They don't notice it. Maybe he was out hunting. It's hard to say for sure. But Samantha's phone was also found in the passenger compartment, along with bleach, sanitizing, wipes and window clean. That does not look good. None of this looks good for Nathaniel, right?

You already tried to run from police when they tried to stop you unsuccessfully. They caught you. You've got a crime scene, a whole forensic labs dream inside of your car. And on top of that, the victim's phone is found in your car. And you got a bunch of cleaning agents. So it would be hard to get out of this one. Yeah. I mean, it, it would be, you know, a lot of cases that we do, like last Sunday's case.

Yeah, it didn't look great for that person. Right. But I wouldn't say there was a ton of smoking gun evidence. I would call this smoking gun evidence. Oh, absolutely. I mean, it is really incriminating. Yeah. The car's child safety locks had been activated, which meant the rear doors could not be

open from the inside. I hate that. Have you ever been in a car in the back when they had those activated and forgot? And then you get somewhere and everybody gets out and you go to grab and you're like, hey, you got to let me out of here. I can't get out. Well, first of all, you know I don't ride with anybody else. Well, that is true. I always have to be the driver. Yeah. That's just a quirk of mine. I've been like that since I could drive. I do not like, because the one time I did, I got into like a rollover six rollover accident. Yeah. When my buddy was driving and ever since then, I'm not taking that chance.

I don't want to really ride with someone else. Now, you've experienced a lot because that's how cop cars work. That's a different type of locking system, but I just think that they should have, I mean, I love that they have this for child safety. Yeah, because you don't want a child being able to open a car door and jumping out at high speed. I just think there should be some type of override for an adult sitting, sitting back there that they can hit a certain button that the kids can't find. I don't know. I'm saying if you can do it, I'm sure a kid can do it.

That's probably true. That is the problem. But, you know, that being said, if someone has something nefarious on their mind, well, that's a, I guess a good way to keep someone from getting out of your car. Yeah. So it is a little scary from that standpoint. But it also is just like everything, right? Somebody has a good idea, but it doesn't mean somebody can't use it in a way for which it wasn't intended in a bad way.

Because there's a lot of things that you could say that about. I guess you could always look as you, before you get in, look at the door, see if that little switch has been up or down. To see if it's got the child lock on it. Yeah. You know, folks, it's summertime, and that changes how I get dressed.

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That's Q-U-I-N-C-E-E-D-com slash T-C-A-T-T for free shipping and 365-day returns, Quince.com slash T-Cat. Nathaniel Rowland was charged with murder and kidnapping. Columbia Police announced the charges against Roland on the evening of March 30th, noting that he had recently resided in New Zion and was familiar with the area. where Samantha's body was found. Roland waved his right to appear in court. Samantha's mother, Marcy Josephson, said she was disappointed

that they didn't get to see his evil face in court. Yeah, I'm sure she had some choice words and some choice looks that she wanted to give them. Both, yeah, I would think so. She said at the bond hearing is quoted by WLTX. Unlike him, Samantha valued him. human life and could never harm another soul. Unlike him, Samantha had love within her heart and a purpose in her life. The life he brutally ended. He took away our daughter, a sister, a granddaughter, a niece, a cousin, and a friend to so many. His selfish, unspeakable, and violent actions have created a

whole in the universe, a hole in our universe, and we see the unimaginable ripple effect on our world. Yeah, well, how well that was said. Yeah, I think that really sums up probably what a lot of victims feel. Yeah. Or victims' families feel is like they just have this tremendous void in their life. And there's nothing that's going to fill it, nothing that's going to replace it, because that person is never coming back. Now, at least they know who did it. Yeah.

And yeah, is it great? No, your loved one is still deceased and was murdered. But we on our Unsolved podcast talk about a lot of families who not only have that, but also have the added pain of never finding out exactly what happened. And more importantly, who was responsible. Responsible, yeah. And that person never gets brought to justice. So, I mean, it's hard to say that there's a silver lining, but I think that's a, at least a, a good thing that this person was caught, captured.

They know who did it. Yeah. In the aftermath of the murder, many expressed concern about the safety of rideshare apps. And you could see why. Yeah. I mean, you think about the number of people who use those types of service. and how it's grown through the years since they first came along, a lot of people use those. And let's face it, there was a time when you didn't know who you were getting in the car with.

I mean, technically you still don't know, but you have a lot more information about the person nowadays. Now you get what the car is supposed to look like and maybe even sometimes a picture. So you get a lot more information on the app. An Uber spokesperson issued a statement in early April 2019 that read, since 2017, we've been working with local law enforcement and college campuses across the country to educate the public about how to avoid fake ride share drivers. Everyone at Uber is devastated to hear about this unspeakable crime. and our hearts are with Samantha Josephson's family and loved ones. We remain focused on raising public awareness about this incredibly important issue. Okay.

That's a statement from Uber. I'm sure they mean it, but they also have to put that out. They do. I mean, let's face it, no company wants to have a murder linked to them in the media. I'm not saying that the guy's lying because I'm or whoever it was was lying. I'm sure they did feel that way. But they almost really have to say that come out. They want to put something positive out.

Sure. Yeah. At a vigil for Samantha, Seymour Josephson said he planned to make it his mission in life to keep others from suffering the same as his daughter. He said Samantha was by herself. She had absolutely no chance. None. The door was locked. Yeah, couldn't get out, right? Yeah. He urged those listening to him to take their safety seriously and to never be out alone at night. Let's be honest, you guys are drinking,

leaving the bar or whatever it may be. If there's somebody else in the car, there's actually a chance. And there is some validity to that. I mean, there's that old adage, right? There's safety in numbers. Yeah, the buddy system. Yeah, it doesn't mean that. that someone couldn't attack two people, but are they less likely to? And I'd say the answer is probably yes. I agree. We have covered so many killers on this podcast.

And the one thing that stands out about most of them, especially serial killers, is that they prey upon people who they consider to be vulnerable people. Yeah. Well, if you're alone, you're more vulnerable than you are if you're with somebody else. I think that just goes without saying. Safety in numbers.

Yeah. I think that's true. He also wanted to ask ride share companies about improving safety for passengers. Nathaniel Rowland's parents, Henry and Loretta, also spoke out after his arrest saying they believed in their son's innocence and their hearts went out to Samantha's family. Wow. That's a, it's hard to. hear that they believe in their son's innocence yeah yeah it doesn't surprise me though i mean you know think about all the now we normally talk more about the victim's family but you have to

in some cases talk about the perpetrator's family as well they're going through something they are but i think of a lot of them especially when it's like their son their daughter yeah they have a real hard believing that the person they raised could have done this horrible thing. I mean, if they haven't heard about all the evidence, and they just heard that, the police believe he's the one that did that, that's one thing. But,

and I get it, you never want to believe your kid can do that. Right. Man, when you see the evidence. Right, but it could be in spite of the evidence. Yeah. And also,

we don't know how much of the evidence was public. Right. You know, some of that may have come out later at trial, but we're telling it, you know, in maybe a different chronology. But still, I think some parents, even with all the evidence, have a hard time facing the truth. Yeah. My baby would never do something like that.

No, I think that's something that happens quite a lot. Henry Rowland defended his son, saying he's a good kid. Ain't no way in the world he could do this. I think a lot of parents, again, would feel like that. that. However, Henry said that if Nathaniel was guilty, he would have to pay the consequences, saying, if he did it, I'll be the first one to putting behind bars, lock him up, and throw away the key. That's a good follow-through on the question, you know, that he was asked. Yeah, because he's saying, hey, I just can't believe or we don't believe that he did it. But if he did, if he's guilty,

Yep. He needs to pay the price. Yeah. So I'm with you. I think it's a very pragmatic way to look at it. Yeah, you want to believe your son is sent to him, but if it turns out he's not, you're going to feel bad, but he deserves to be sentenced. I just wonder if you're, you know, a parent of one of these killers. Do you feel like the responsibility? Like, do you feel like maybe, we didn't raise them good enough.

Oh, I guarantee you. Yeah. I guarantee you there's a ton of guilt. There's a ton of questions. Um, what ifs, right? What if we did this differently? Is there something we could have done differently that would have maybe changed the outcome? Uh, it cannot be easy on, on the parents of perpetrators either.

Not at all. Roland's mother Loretta also told WACH that Nathaniel denied the allegations. she said he's a very good young man. And when I talked to him yesterday, he told me that wasn't him. And I believe him. And again, this may be before,

right? All of the evidence came out. Right. Days after the arrest, it was reported that Nathaniel Roland allegedly sold items stolen during another woman's alleged kidnapping months earlier. And that's pretty scary.

It is. Because that makes you believe that this was not a one-time event. Now, it may be the only time he murdered. It may not be, but it certainly appears as though it wasn't the first time that he had done something along these lines.

Like almost, he could almost be a serial kidnapper and killer. Possibly, we don't know. On October 19, 2018, a woman told the police that two men carjacked her while she was at a traffic light in Columbia, she was physically assaulted and forced to drive to an ATM to get money.

The suspects made her drive to her home, where they took items from inside and then fled the scene. Hours later, Deputy said Nathaniel Rowland sold some of those stolen items, including a PlayStation 4 at a pawn shop. Authorities traced the items to the pawn shop and arrested Rowland. He was charged with obtaining goods, under false pretenses. Columbia police did not indicate Roland was involved in the carjacking.

And that to me makes it sound like he wasn't that he somehow or for however reason got his hands on some of the stolen goods later on. Yeah. And then maybe he was the one tasked with pawning all of it and had to give some of the money to the other people. I don't know. But if he was involved in the carjacking, he would have been charged with. a lot more. I think so too. The University of South Carolina held its spring commencement in May 2019. Samantha's family attended the ceremony and received her posthumous degree. He's just talking about

heartbreaking. Yeah. Thinking she should be here. Absolutely. This is what she worked hard for. President Harris pastides honored Samantha in a speech saying, I'd like to take a moment to to recognize and honor the life and legacy of Samantha Josephson, our cherished 21-year-old senior political science major, whose life was tragically taken from us, fellow Gamecox class of 2019. We must ensure what happened to Samantha never happens again to any college student or indeed to any person.

Asking, what's my name before getting in a ride-share vehicle will save lives? That's a true statement. Yeah, and I remember this pretty vividly when it happened. That was like a big thing coming in the aftermath of it, which was start asking these ride share drivers, hey, what's my name? One of the many things. There was a bunch of different things that came out.

But even something as simple as that, right? I mean, what's the odds that a fraudster is going to be? going to know your name. Yeah, complete stranger. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's better. It doesn't cost anything, right? Easy to implement.

Anyone can do it. Nathaniel Rowland's murder trial started on July 18th, 2021. The prosecution presented numerous pieces of evidence pointing to Roland as the killer. The jury heard that someone unsuccessfully attempted to use Samantha's debit card at an ATM and Sumter around 5 a.m. on March 29th, surveillance video showed someone wearing a bandana attempting to access the account. And police figured out that Roland's phone was in this location at the very same time. How many times have I said it? You know, digital footprint. Cell phone data tracking. It all comes back to bite you.

It really does. I still, it is hard for me to believe that people get away still with as many crimes as they do. I am surprised as well. With all the new technology that we have, all the cameras that are around. I heard a special the other day on that geo-fencing and really how far they can dial that down to. And it's amazing. Pretty crazy.

If they actually need to use that tool and then the courts give them the rights to do it, they can pretty much show up at your front door. Yeah. Yeah. Which is going to stink if you just happened to be in an area and you didn't have anything to do with it. But, you know, to me, if it leads to finding the real killer, let's just say a killer, right? And a murder. Is it that big a deal to have police ask you some questions?

I get it. Some people will say, yeah, it is. It's an invasion of my privacy. They don't want it. I understand that. To me, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I know I didn't do anything wrong. And if it helps lead to the right person,

I would be more than happy to answer some questions. I think you're going to have that be a 50-50, I think. Yeah. I think a lot of people are going to say no. Yeah. Because where does it stop? Right. And it is a slippery slope.

Yeah. You do have to be careful with some of those things. Roland's phone then traveled to his girlfriend. girlfriend's home, Roland's girlfriend, Maria Howard, testified that she and Roland had known each other for years. And in March 2019, he was staying overnight at her home regularly. On March 28th, she asked him to wash her work shirt and left her work visor in his car. He was home when she went to bed. But when she went downstairs early the next morning, he was gone. He didn't answer her attacks and eventually showed up in the clothes he was wearing the night before, which normally doesn't

go over well. No. With men and women. That's exactly right. In any type of relationship because it denotes that one of the people was doing something they shouldn't have been doing. Now, I would say more often than not, it's fair or something like that. Less likely that it's murder, but it could be.

there's still a story that has to be told. Where were you? And what did you do? Yeah. And if you were doing something, you shouldn't have been, you're still going to have to come up with a lie. Yeah. She noticed that her work visor was missing. She asked him where it was, and he said he'd been out in the country and no longer had it because it had blood on it.

Okay. That's a strange response. Why not just say, I don't know what happened to it? Yeah. You know, why go to that extent? Again, maybe we're not talking about smartest person in the world. I have no idea what this guy's IQ was, but it is a strange thing to say because now you have to believe there's going to be a follow-up question. Oh, absolutely.

How can you tell that to somebody and not expect a follow-up question? Yeah, because it's going to be, okay, so now tell me why was there blood? How did it get in your car? and then you have to, you know, come up with an answer for that. But when she asked him why, he told her, mind your business. Mine your business. I bet that went over well. Yeah.

So apparently you don't have to come up with a lie. You can just tell someone to mind their own business. Yeah. Roland briefly left to take his nephew to school. When he returned, he had her work shirt, but it was wet. When she got into his car so he could, drive her to work, she noticed dry blood throughout the car, which worried her. And as it should, I think anybody should be worried if they see, you know, dry blood all over the, the car. Later that day,

she got a ride home from a coworker. When she returned, she found Roland cleaning the car with bleach and wipes. He continued cleaning the car and a multi-tool in the passenger seat as she drove the car to pick up her daughter. Okay. He was really trying to get it clean. Well, yeah, I mean, we need to get the blood out before we go pick up her daughter. Apparently, this is the one car and it has to be used by everybody. So not a lot of options.

I'm still, you know, again, I get it. I don't know what this relationship was like. Yeah. And there is some people who know at a certain point they can't press any further because it's going to get out of hand. But I would have a hard time being satisfied with the mind your business in relation to this question of where all this blood came from. But you have to be somewhat concerned, too, that he's cleaning this multi-tool. I mean, I know you have several multi-tools. I have five of them in this studio. I love multi-tools.

And I know some of them can have a fairly large blade in them. Yeah. Most of them have a fairly good size knife. Yeah. So. I don't know if that may be, that could have been the weapon used. Yeah. I mean, we may talk about it. Yeah.

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It looked like a woman's phone. Roland said he was getting it ready for her, but she didn't need a phone at the time. She asked about the blood again repeatedly, but again, he told her to mind your business. Mind your business. I'm telling you right now, I don't know too many. people that would be okay with that. I don't know many women who are okay with the mind your business. Yeah.

A routine. But also, all of a sudden you've got, you got me a rose gold iPhone when I don't need an iPhone. That's got to be kind of a strange thing as well. iPhones are not cheap. That's exactly. As any of us who have one know.

When she saw a news report about Samantha Josephson, and the suspect vehicle, then it all started making sense to her. But she didn't go to police because she was scared for herself and her daughter. After Roland's arrest, the police talked to her. So obviously that's when all of the,

you know, the information we just talked about would have come out. Yeah. I mean, I feel, I feel bad for her because I understand,

you know, her concern. Like, I can't go to the police and risk him finding out. And now me and my daughter are at Dange. Yeah, if this guy literally just killed somebody. Yeah.

Then is he going to be that worried about killing you or your daughter if he thinks you're going to put him in jail? That's a real fear. It is. There's no way around that. The jury heard that during the early morning traffic stop on March 30th, Roland cooperated until he was told that his car matched a suspect's vehicle. That's the point where he got out and fled.

Roland thought he got rid of the evidence, but it comes back to the clothing. This was according to prosecutor Daniel Goldberg. Roland was wearing the same hoodie, seen on the ATM surveillance video, gloves seen on the video were found at his girlfriend's home. The shoes and bandana from the surveillance video were found in his.

his car. Pretty solid. Yeah, pretty hard to argue. And then you have Samantha's DNA. It was found on Roland's Beanie. Her blood was also found on the bandana. He hadn't gotten rid of those items because he didn't see the blood on them. Yeah. And you and I talk about blood a lot. And that's the one thing you hear, you know, whether it's trying to clean up a crime scene or when you murder someone up close and personal and there's blood spatter. You have no idea where that blood spatter is going to go. And you know, you can wash. You can do all types of things, but you're not going to catch all of it. No, you're not. Unless you strip down and you literally burn everything you have on, which he thankfully did not do. Right. Right. But that's what you'd have to do.

Everything you had on and the vehicle with it. Yeah. Because short of that, They're going to find it if they know who you are. Samantha's blood was also found on the multi-tool, which was found in the trash at Maria Howard's home. A DNA expert would testify that Samantha's DNA was found under Roland's nails. But his DNA was not under her nails. An unidentified individual's DNA was found on the handle of the multi-tool. Samantha's DNA was found on the blade. So, you know, it's looking like you were, you were right about that,

that this multi-tool that he was trying to clean is looking like the murder weapon. Right. Samantha's footprint was also found on a window inside Roland's car. Yeah, which is, you know, was that her trying to kick the window out? Or was that her struggling during? Both, both maybe. Yeah. But either way, it's heartbreaking to think about.

Absolutely. What she went through in the backseat of that car. Dr. Thomas Beaver, a forensic pathologist, told the jury, Samantha was stabbed over a hundred times and had facial injuries that looked as if she was dragged. The stab wounds were parallel, which is unlike a traditional knife and would have had to have come from something unique. he believed the multi-tool was the murder weapon. Over a hundred times. This guy's a monster.

Oh, yeah. I mean, that is tedious. The multi-tool has two parallel blades bent at the tip. So I don't know. Every multi-tool is a little bit different. Yeah. I don't know what type of multi-tool has two parallel blades.

Like I said, I have a bunch of them, but I don't have any that have parallel blades on them. Dr. Beaver also testified that the body typically holds a gallon of blood, but only 20 milliliters of blood, which is about two tablespoons. Oh. Was found in Samantha's body indicating she bled out. Yeah.

I mean, if you're going to be stabbed over a hundred times, I can see that happening. And if it happens in the back seat of the car. Yeah. Well, now I think, you know, we're understanding a little. little bit better why there was so much blood inside of that car wow and i just think about her family hearing this learning this right during during the different stages of the investigation and and um what that had to do to them i mean it's just devastating to hear your daughter was attacked like that and then to hear that almost all her blood was drained out of her body

Yeah, I mean, it's always has to be tough for the family, right? To sit in the courtroom and hear all the details of what happened to your loved one. Neck wounds to the jugular and carotid artery and a severed hyoid bone along with stab wounds to the head were lethal and caused the loss of blood. Surveillance and video analyst Justin Martin testified that Roland and Samantha's phones traveled together. out of the five points area for a short time before hers stopped showing up. Roland's phone pinged until it went to a remote area in Clarendon County where Samantha's body was found. The defense didn't present any witnesses and Roland chose not to testify. What was he going to say?

Well, and I don't know what witnesses they would have. Who are they going to call? Yeah. I don't think yet. No alibi witnesses. No. I mean, you don't call character witnesses, right, until more of the, the penalty phase. I don't know, maybe you can, but normally you see that more in like the penalty phase of the trial.

But either way, that doesn't, it's not going to sway a jury, even if they did have some people like that. During closing arguments, the defense noted that Roland's DNA was not found on Samantha's body. and his DNA wasn't found on the handle of the murder weapon, Roland had no cuts and bruises on his body. And there were two unidentified male DNA profiles found during testing. Defense attorney Tracy Pennock argued that the narrative is getting skewed. She noted that during the traffic stop, Roland cooperated until his arm was allegedly grabbed.

And another officer lunged at him. She argued that blood transfers easily, which is why there was a large amount of blood in the car. Prior to processing the car, detectives were in the woods in New Zion where the body was found. Okay, I get it. I say it all the time. I understand that defense attorneys have to try to pull something out of their hat, but it's a stretch. It's not even trying to pull something out of their hat at this point. It's pulling something out of the opposite end.

Yeah. saying, but they have to do something for their client to make the claim that this large amount of blood that's found in the car was dragged in there by these cops that came from the woods. That doesn't make any sense to me. Samantha's body was found in the woods, but there was no dirt or debris on Roland's clothing. Three pairs of shoes in his car had no blood on them. first of all, who has three pairs of shoes in their car? I don't even have three pairs of shoes in my closet.

No, but you got about 12 pairs down here. I know there are a lot of people who are into shoes. Yeah. I get it. I'm not one of them, but, uh, but, but what does that mean, right? Okay, so there's three pairs in there that don't have any blood on them. Maybe he threw one that pair away. You mean the pair he was wearing?

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I don't know, um, what the absence. of blood on that means, I do know what the presence of blood on other things means and what it would mean to the jury. Penock also noted that Maria Howard's DNA was found on bags containing bloody clothes. Rowland's DNA was part of a mixture of DNA on the multi-tool, but he was not a major contributor. Penach argued, if the state is going to tell you that Josephson did not have Roland's DNA on her because he was wearing gloves. But there is his DNA on the tool.

That is contradictory. In their closing statement, the prosecution argued that there was no other credible suspect. And the killing was cold, malicious, and intentional. Well, the last part I agree with.

The no other credible suspect argument, I mean, I think if I'm a juror, I'm not putting a lot of stock in that, just because you don't have another suspect. Yeah. doesn't mean this guy's guilty. Now, if you want to point all the evidence,

okay, you can do that. I don't like that statement, I guess. I see what you're saying. Just because, to me, it doesn't mean anything. Although Samantha freely got into the car, the moment she began fighting to get out, it became a kidnapping. That is true.

The prosecution also noted that if it hadn't been for the turkey hunters, it's unlikely Samantha's body would have ever been found because no one would go out there unless you were a local. Yeah, I was just going to say that. That was a local, I mean, that was a fortunate find. The discovery by the hunters. Yeah, because if her body's not found, then you would have lost a lot of evidence if it was found much later on. And if it was never found, this would be one we would be having on the other podcast. Or they would have had to try it as a no body case, which obviously makes it harder.

Much harder. Even if they thought it was him, no doubt, it's harder. On July 27, 2021, Nathaniel Rowland was found guilty of murder and sentenced the life in prison. Before sentencing, Roland told the judge, I know I'm innocent, but I guess what I know and what I think really doesn't matter. No, not really. I mean, your girlfriend said you were sitting there, you had blood, blood, in your car. You were cleaning. You had wipes. You mean, you knew what you were doing.

Yeah. I mean, there was a lot of evidence. Yeah. Right. Stacked up against this guy. I get it. What's he supposed to say? Yeah, you got me. Yeah. He's going to argue it, right? I mean, why wouldn't you want to argue it? Right. You're going to continue to argue it, hoping that somebody will change the outcome. But it's not going to happen. No, it's not going to happen. Since Samantha's murder, state and federal legislation has been passed to enhance ride share safety. In June 2019, South Carolina passed the Samantha Josephson Ridesharing Safety Act. The laws mandate stricter identification and safety regulations such as illuminated signs. New Jersey passed Sammy's law, which also required illuminated signs for ride share vehicles.

On January 5, 2003, Joe Biden signed. signed Sammy's law, which enhanced ride chair safety on a national level. Good. Well, I think it just shows you what this case did. Yeah. It scared the you know what out of people. As it should have. Over what really was the lack of safety precautions or things built in to the whole ride

sharing concept. I mean, not even just in. campus life, right? Just everywhere. But, I mean, think about, you know, your kids went off to college. Sure. Right? I got one still there.

Still there. That could or maybe have taken Ubers. You would want to know that there's the best protocol out there, safety protocol, that can be used to help protect them. And, you know, unfortunately back then there wasn't. So this is something good. I think it, as a parent, I think you're, you never really sleep great when your kids far away, but you're sleep somewhat better, right?

Yeah. You're going to know. Even nowadays when we have things like the Apple apps or, you know, Life 360, things like things like that where you can track loved ones phones, I can't go to sleep if my daughter is out somewhere. Yeah. down at school. Now, I stay up pretty late anyway. So that's not normally a problem, but I got to see her get home. I got to get that notification that she's home. Yeah. Before I can go to sleep. The law required the government accountability office to submit a biennial report to Congress regarding

the incidents of assault involving drivers and passengers of four higher vehicles, such as Uber and lift, it requires ride-share drivers to display lighted signs and scanable QR codes as a safety regulation and criminalizes misrepresentation of being a driver of a ride-sharing service. Samantha's parents also established the What's My Name Foundation to educate people about ride-share safety and advocate for policies that enhance safety. The nonprofit created the Sammy acronym, which is stop, ask, match, inform to encourage safety. I mean, that's awesome. And I remember her dad saying that he was going to do everything he could.

He said it was going to make it his life's mission. Mission, yes. And he did. He did. I think he did. But this is a lot of times what we see, right, in the wake of a tragedy, especially parents, kind of doing something in the name of their loved. one. Number one, it's going to help a lot of people out, but also it helps honor their loved one.

Yeah. You know, they named all of these acts after her. And, you know, these are all good things that were, that are put in play. Yeah, absolutely. But it, you know, as we wrapped this one up, it's a pretty infamous case. A lot of people remember it. You know, I, I can't help but feel. And I have throughout the episode from the time that we talked about her, you know, trying to get out of that backseat and finding out that the door was locked. The horror that she must have felt. Yeah. In that, that moment.

And then to find out that she was stabbed a hundred times, it just, it just goes to show you the brutality of this crime. I mean, it was, it was that brutal. And all for a way, you know, I mean, really. what he's never going to say because he says he's innocent, but yeah. Why? Why would you do something like that? Yeah, what was the reason?

He, you know, again, like you said, he hasn't come out and said what the reason was because he's still maintaining his innocence. He got life in prison. He deserves that. He doesn't deserve to be out walking. No, not at all. For what he did. Not a good kid.

No, not at all. But that's it for our episode on Samantha Josephson. and that's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.