True Crime All The Time - Samuel Little Part 1

Episode Date: September 12, 2022

In October 2019, the FBI confirmed that Samuel Little was the most prolific serial killer in US history. He was an extremely brutal man who only cared about his own gratification and gave no thought to the feelings or well-being of those around him. He was in and out of penal institutions of one type or another most of his life but never served very long during any one stretch. It took advancements in DNA many years after the fact to put him away for three murders he committed in California.Join Mike and Gibby for the 300th episode of True Crime All The Time, where we discuss Samuel Little. In part one of the Samuel Little episodes, we’ll cover his early life and lengthy criminal record. Samuel Little spent his days committing petty crimes and his nights hunting for vulnerable victims. It was after his conviction for the three murders in California that the true scope of his depravity came to light.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 300 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime. Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? Man, 300 episodes. Can you believe it? Uh, it's amazing. It is.

It is thinking back, you know, almost six years ago. Would you have ever thought that we would be saying episode 300? No. No. You didn't because you weren't even sure that you wanted to do the podcast. with me. I'm glad you did. Me too. Because it has all worked out. Before we get into the names of our Patreon supporters, we talked about in our Patreon weekly episode, um, the passing of Queen Elizabeth at the age of 96, you know, 70 years on the throne. So, you know, our hearts go out to those in the

UK and Britain and everybody else who is mourning. Yeah. Because that's, such a long time to kind of rule. And again, I know she's not probably ruling everything day to day. I get that. Right. What's the equivalent over here that a beloved president, you know, passes away, I guess. Maybe. But presidents don't rule or don't, you know, they're not in power. Right. Nearly as long as she has been. She's been a fixture. So I did want to mention. that. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Courtney Perry. Hey, Courtney. Daisy Semantle. What's going on, Daisy? Kelsey S. Hey, Kelsey. Jeremy. Jeremy. Jeremy. Jeremy What's going on, Reagan? Troy Terrell. Hey, Troy, Tyrell. Daniel Jackson. Hey, appreciate that,

Jackson. Tracy Lyons. What's going on, Lions? Gary Hugal. Well, hey there, Gary. Lisa Cochran. Awesome, Lisa. Stephanie Gotchaal. So that's fun to say. Sarah Cabot. What's going on, Cabot? Mandy Sario. Hey, Mandy. Katrina Sanders. I appreciate that, Katrina. Kim Soper. There's Kim.

Art of a Fari. Well, there's art. True Kenna all the time. Well, thank you, True Kenna. Melissa Spencer. Hey, Spencer. Cheyenne Turner. I like that name Cheyenne.

Court. What's up? Court. Amanda Shanti. Deaise. What's up, Dee? Debra Windsor. Debra.

Debra. And last but not least, Angela Paucco. Well, thank Angela. And then we go back into the vault. This week we selected Amy LaFuante. Ah, thanks, Amy. Yeah, awesome. We also had great PayPal donations from Nora LLC.

Well, thank you, Nora. Paris Major. There's Paris. And I believe Gibbs, the biggest PayPal donation we've ever received, which came in from Jill Peterson. And thanks, Jill, that's awesome. Yeah, thanks to everyone. It's so amazing.

We have an episode out right now on Unsolved on the Murder of Elsie Frost. Yeah, going back to 1965 of this unsolved murder of a 14-year-old girl, it's very interesting. Well, and it also happens to take place over in England. It does, over in England, and we're dive into the crime and the aftermath. So that's out. Make sure you check that out. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this 300th episode of True Crime All the Time? I am, but I have a question for you. Yes.

You said 300. it. Does that mean I'll finally get my own key to the restroom? No, you will not. Oh. It will, there's one key. It hangs on the wall. Yeah. And there's a tire, like a, not a, not a full-size tire. It's like a little lawnmower tire. Yeah, I know. Attached to it. Drag it every time I have to go. so that you don't steal it. Okay, I was just hoping I finally get my own key now. So I did have a lot of people reach out to me with their guesses on who the subject for 300 would be. Not a single person got it right.

And I was really shocked because we're talking about Samuel Little in October 2019. The FBI confirmed that Samuel Little was the most prolific serial killer in U.S. history. In the years following his arrest, investigators around the country have confirmed the identities of more than 60 victims. Now, Samuels confessed to like 93 murders. That's a lot. But many victims remain unidentified and are depicted in, you know, nameless portraits that he has drawn himself in part one of the Samuel Little episodes. And it will be a two-parter. But in part one will cover his early life, his lengthy criminal record. He spent his days committing petty crimes and he pretty much spent his nights hunting for vulnerable victims. Now, I do want to say

Gibbs, we don't often give warnings. But this episode does contain detailed information about a few things, strangulation, physical assault, sexual assault, and rape. So I am putting, putting that out there because I do know that, you know, some of those things are hard for some people. Yeah. Samuel Little was born on June 7th, 1940 in Reynolds, Georgia. Reynolds is a small town, about 100 miles from Atlanta. At the time, Samuel was born, less than a thousand people live there. That's a really small town. It's a really small town. I feel like we had a town in an episode not that long ago that was like 500. Yeah. I don't remember what town it was.

I don't remember what episode was. But I just thought 500 people or 1,000 people. How could you not know everybody in the town? Well, I'm sure they know everybody's business too. Well, and I'm sure they know his business now. And maybe they did back then. Samuel's mother was named Bessie May Little. She was 16 years old when he was born.

His father was 19-year-old Paul McDowell. Samuel would take on his father's. last name as an alias later on in his life. Now, Samuel has claimed that his mother was a sex worker, or in his words, a lady of the night. That used to be a saying or a phrase that you heard, you don't hear it as much today as you did years ago. He told journalist Jillian Lauren from the cut that his mother abandoned him on the side of the road when he was just a baby. According to biography.com, the police believed that Samuel Little's mother gave birth to him while she was incarcerated. A 1940 U.S. Census listed Bessie Mae Little's occupation as made.

So we have a lot going on here, as is often the case. Some conflicting information, not all sources, see things the same way. What is known is that Samuel was raised by his paternal grandmother in Lorraine, Ohio. Do you know where Lorraine, Ohio is? Man, I used to know, but I can't think of it right now. I have no idea. Isn't it strange how you can live in a state and have no idea where a town is? And that's if I'm even pronouncing it correctly. I think you're pronouncing it correctly. It could be Lorraine. I think you have it right. But, you know, not that Ohio's not, it's a fairly big state, but he attended Hawthorne Junior High School. Samuel claimed that he developed a fascination with necks and specifically strangulation as a young boy.

He told investigators that he got his first erection when he saw his kindergarten teacher touch her neck. When he was a teenager, he pinned a photo to his wall from a true crime magazine that showed a female strangulation victim. True crime magazine back then. Yeah, there's been true crime magazine. magazines for a very, very long time. But I want to go back to this fascination, not to be vulgar, but I get it. Boys at some point get their first erection. I'm sure you remember yours fondly.

Absolutely. But the specifics around his, that's pretty shocking. I mean, I'm thinking this is a time, this is kindergarten. Kids are playing with Lincoln logs, matchbooks cars. Yeah. you know, hot wheels, whatever was around. What's the game with the little sticks? Pick up sticks.

Pick up sticks. Yeah. That should have come to my mind easily. But I'm glad you got it. Yeah. Hopscotch. Hulu hoop. Yeah.

I can go on and on. Kick ball. Kick ball. Yeah. What most kindergartners are not fascinated with is strangulation. No. So very odd. Samuel struggled in school and he dropped out before

graduating high school. His criminal career began when he was just a teenager. In February 1954, 13-year-old Samuel was sent to the boys' industrial school, a reform school in Lancaster, Ohio. Now, I do know where Lancaster is. Kind of close to year old university. It is. Very close. He said he was sent there for stealing a bike. At the industrial school, the boy spent half the day doing labor and the other half in school. And the other half in school, school. They lived in racially segregated cottages. Samuel Little did what was called farm duty. So he raised animals. He grew vegetables. But he also participated in boxing and the drill team. Hey, you always love the drill team. I was a major ed. Yeah, something I'm very proud of.

Many of the boys at the industrial school tried to behave, right? Follow the rules. And why wouldn't you want to? That's what would help, you know, get you. released early. But not Samuel. He received 47 disciplinary infractions by the time he was released in September 1955. So, you know, there was a lot in the research that most of the kids had one, maybe two infractions on their records. Samuel had 47. Oh, not the greatest kid at all. No, and you're really kind of blowing the bell curve as far as infractions go. 16 year old, Sam, Samuel was arrested for burglary in Omaha, Nebraska in 1956. He was sent to a youth authority for this charge.

They had a lot of names back then. They sure did. You notice that is we do some of these cases that go back to the 50s and 60s, youth authority, industrial school for boys. Yeah. But let's call them what they were. They were reform schools. Exactly.

In 1957, Samuel was arrested for breaking into a dry cleaners. in Lorraine, and he was incarcerated at the Ohio State Reformatory in Mansfield. I also know where Mansfield is because I'm pretty sure that's where the big daddy prison is. It is. That's where the big boys go. Exactly where it is. Who do the really, really bad things. Samuel later told investigators that he learned boxing during his time at Mansfield.

He claimed he had the potential to become a prize fighter, but he never pursued that career. path after he got out of prison. So he could have been the next Mike Tyson. Yeah, maybe. Or is he just talking, you know what, blowing smoke? Well, he could be. We'll see. Well, we won't see because he never went down that path. Right. He was eventually parole, but sent back to the reformatory in October 1961 for breaking into an abandoned furniture warehouse store. He was sentenced to three years in prison and was later paroled in December 1964. So we're seeing a pattern here, right? Get in trouble. Go to either a reform school, now go to prison, get out, pretty much go right back into something. Right. The one thing I found interesting is that it was said this was the most time

that he served in prison until he was actually arrested for murder. It's fascinating, but it's actually not shocking because of all the cases that we've done. They were kind of used to those prison sentences back then. Being a little lighter than what we would see today. Doesn't seem as though, now some of these were juvenile, but, you know, once you become an adult, at some point, your rap sheet has to matter. And it just didn't seem to as much, I think, years ago. After his release in 1964, Samuel moved from state to state.

and he was arrested for charges such as fraud, DUI, assault, armed robbery, rape, and a number of other serious offenses. He often shoplifted or just outright stole money to purchase drugs and alcohol. And I already mentioned it up front, but he occasionally used the alias Samuel McDowell after his father. Right. Well, he's definitely not a good guy. and it's showing early on.

Yeah, it's showing. Yeah, it's a pattern, right? So I mentioned reform school. And my thought is for a lot of kids, it probably worked. They didn't want to be there. And so once they got out, they sure as hell didn't want to go back. But, you know, here you have a guy like Samuel Little. There was no reformation.

I don't believe with this dude. He just went back to doing whatever he. he wanted to do. Whether that was breaking into stores, stealing, or much more serious offenses like armed robbery and rape. But those are things that he knew how to do. And I don't want to say he was comfortable with it, but maybe he... You could be right. I understand why you don't want to say that, but you could be right. Not only did he know how to do it. Now, he did get caught a lot, so I don't know how well he knew how to do it. But he knew that this was a way for him to get what he wanted, whether it was money to buy

drugs or alcohol or in some cases sexual gratification. And, you know, we see that time and time again with serial predators. They're out for themselves. They're out to try to gratify themselves oftentimes at the expense of others. sickening, but it's true. It is true. By 1975, Samuel had been arrested 26 different times in 11 different states. It's been a busy guy. Busy guy kind of padding his rap sheet. All of these charges, though, added up to a total of 10 years in prison. Not a lot of time. Not really. I mean, he had many more run-ins with the police, but I think a lot of the time, what I got from the research is

that they just wanted him to leave town. And they kind of allowed him or urged him to do that rather than arrest him. So a little first blood action, right? Even though Rambo wasn't really doing anything wrong, the chief kind of wanted him just to move along. Yeah, let me drive to the edge town. Get out of my vehicle and keep walking. But Rambo wasn't having it. Now, let me ask you a question. What do you think this does in the mind of a criminal? and maybe even more specifically a career criminal. So if you do anything bad and your punishment is minimal, what's keeping you from doing it again?

Yeah, it's no different than a small child. Yeah. If you're not supposed to get in the cookie jar, but yet every time you do, it's like, oh, that's just Timmy being Timmy.

Right. Well, what's Timmy going to think the next time he wants a cookie? Yeah. Yeah. I might get something. somebody's going to say something to me, but nothing bad is going to happen. So I'm eating all the cookies.

Yeah. Why not? In 1966, Samuel was arrested for assault and battery when he attacked a woman in Cleveland, Ohio. Little wrote in his paperwork that he was married. He listed this same woman as his wife when he was arrested again. He claimed they were married in 1965 in Lorraine and eventually separate. Then in the late 1960s,

he moved to Miami, Florida. According to a later confession, Samuel Little committed his first murder when he was 29 years old. On January 31st, 1970, he murdered 33-year-old Mary Brasley in Miami, Florida. They met at a bar in Miami Beach. He drove her out to the Everglades and murdered her.

That's a scary place at nighttime out in Everglades. To me, that's scary anytime. I don't want to be in the Everglades at any point in time. What it does bring to mind to me is kind of that first, maybe even second season of Dexter. Oh yeah. If you remember, there was some of it that took place in the Everglades. Is there a better place to dispose of a body than in the Everglades with with the number of alligators and things that are out there? Yeah, I think it's pretty well known that. alligators will devour anything thrown in their past.

Yeah, I don't even know if they're all that choosy, to be honest with you. From 1970 to 2005, Samuel Little committed up to 93 murders on his way to becoming the most prolific serial killer in U.S. history. Now, we'll talk about it, right? Some of these are confirmed. Some of these are admissions. I get it. many of samuel's victims were sex workers homeless women or women struggling with addiction many of them

were black women little told new york magazines the cut i never killed no senators or governors or fancy new york journalists nothing like that i stayed in the gethows and i found that to be such a strange quote yeah as though it made it better that you were were targeting members of your own race, you were telling someone that, well, I didn't go after anybody fancy. Do you think he did that because he knew it was less chance of people looking for those individuals? I think that's part of it. I also think, you know, by and large, it's known that serial killers most often target members of their own race. And I think there's reasons for that. You know, if you're out cruising as a predator, are you more likely to be remembered if you stand out from the crowd? You know what I'm saying? Sure. Yeah. So he's saying, well, I stayed in the ghetto. Okay. I thought it was strange because it doesn't seem to to make it better as though he's saying, why, why are you looking at me? I did it in the ghetto. Yeah. It probably allowed him to, you know,

blend in and stay active as long as he did. I think it's one of the reasons why serial killers choose to do that. Now, to your earlier point, why would he target sex workers, homeless women, you know, people struggling with addiction? And we know the answer to that. Sadly, it's because they are much less likely to be missed as quickly as some other individuals. many of Samuel Little's victims are still unidentified. Several cases were initially declared natural deaths,

drug overdoses, or accidents, which made it difficult for investigators to identify the victims. DNA was not available in some cases because some of these murders happened in the 70s and 80s. Yeah, it just didn't have that capability. Samuel Little's M.O. was to punch his victim so hard that they lost consciousness and then strangle them to death.

Because why? He was fascinated with necks. He was fascinated with strangulation. But because he didn't use a weapon, like a gun or a knife, it was much more difficult for detectives to determine if foul play was involved in some of these cases. The FBI wrote in 2018 with no sense. stab marks or bullet wounds, many of these deaths were not classified as homicides, but attributed to drug overdoses, accidents, or natural causes. Now, my thought is, if you find a victim not long

after they've been strangled, it's not that hard to come to the conclusion that they've been strangled. Right. But if you find a body that's decomposed and let's say what you're left with is, skeletal remains, you've got no bullet hole. Right. You don't have nicks that would indicate, uh, you know, knife work or anything like that. It does become much tougher. New York Magazine reported that Samuel Little thought he was commissioned by God to kill his victims and quote, alleviate their misery.

He also claimed that he was possessed by the devil. So we got a little, uh, I'm the devil. and I'm doing this to keep you from suffering. Almost like I'm doing God's work, is what he was saying. And the thing about Little was that he wasn't like a lot of traditional serial killers. He didn't stick to one preferred area or what many would call like a safe zone. Enzo, Yaxic, co-director of Northeastern University's atypical homicide research group told the Associated Press. Little is unique in that modern day serial killers rarely travel the distances he claims to have traversed and instead select vulnerable victims from their own communities.

This behavior paired with his selection of vulnerable people, no doubt contributed to his longevity. Most serial killers in today's society kill two or three victims and are caught within a few years. Yeah, that makes sense. If you're not moving around like he was, right, odds are going to be against you. Yeah, we've talked about a lot of killers who it's almost like they have a radius. So speaking of a safe zone, okay, that's a radius outside, let's say they're home. They're going to go a little bit beyond that, but not that far because they want to be able to get back to their safe area or what they believe is their safe area. After this first murder, Samuel returned to Cleveland, Ohio. on May 28th, 1971, he was arrested for armed robbery in Westlake, Ohio.

That same year, he stole cigarettes in Lorraine and hit someone while fleeing the scene, which increased the charge to aggravated robbery. So he served time in the county jail for the armed robbery charge until March 8th, 1972. On September 22nd, 1971, while he was still in jail. He was charged with sodomy. And somehow he failed to appear in court for this charge and was not tried. And then he was eventually acquitted of the armed robbery charge.

So I got a couple of questions here. First of all, how do you fail to appear in court when you're already in jail and they know where you are? I'm not really sure how that happens, you know. It doesn't make any sense. Isn't it just as simple as making a phone call and say, please transport this prisoner on this day at this time? sure he's here on time, please. Yeah, I didn't understand that. Again, it's just like he gets away with everything. And it's frustrating. We see it, you know, time and time again in some of these cases.

Little's girlfriend at the time, a woman named Lucy Madero, who also witnessed the robbery, was held in jail before his trial. The prison she was housed in was said to have been in such poor conditions that inmates could speak to each other through holes in the walls. Okay, wow. I mean, this is not even Shawshank. No. We're not tunneling out. There's just holes, cracks in the walls, and we can talk through them.

I imagine that maybe they could pass things through them. Yeah. Shawshank probably was like a luxury hotel compared to this place, it sounds like. According to Samuel, in December 1971, Lucy Madero told fellow inmate Orelia Gene Dorsey that she was going to testify against him. for the prosecution. But Dorsey met with Samuel before trial and warned him about Lucy's plans to testify against him. Lucy Madero did end up testifying against Samuel in March 1972, but Samuel warned his attorneys and they had him testify in his own defense. And apparently it

worked out in his favor. He was acquitted of armed robbery, as we already said. I know Gibbs, you've been on record many times saying normally that's not the way to go. But he had some knowledge ahead of time. He did. And so he probably was able to craft something to combat whatever he thought Lucy's testimony was going to be. Samuel Little admired Orelia's loyalty. She was 30 years older than him. And in his own words, no beauty.

which is not the nicest thing to say about anyone, but she taught him everything she knew about fencing stolen goods. And they started a relationship, wandering around the country, stealing. And obviously, as we're going to get into in Samuel's case, murdering women in multiple states. The pair remained together until 1988 when Aurelia died of a brain hemorrhage. in Los Angeles. But during their travels, Samuel Little was arrested 26 times in 11 different states. And basically what they did was during the day they traveled, they stole. And then at night, he went out alone, searching for victims. They moved around the South and Midwest in the 1970s, supporting themselves by stealing and occasionally working odd jobs. My thought is that

occasionally is really occasionally. I was thinking the same thing. Yeah. As we've learned from a lot of other cases, you know, people who are really into stealing or supporting themselves through theft do not like to work.

No, they do not. I was still thinking of that case we did two weeks ago where the guy said, but he worked like 13 days. Something that for his whole entire life. In his entire life. In September, 1976,

Samuel Little was arrested for kidnapping and raping a woman named Pamela K. Smith in Sunset Hills near St. Louis, Missouri. Pamela Smith reported that little choked her from behind with an electrical court, put her in his car, beat her, then drove to a remote location and raped her. In December of that year, he was convicted of assault with intent to rape and sentenced to just three months in the county jail. So this is a vicious assault. This is also a brutal sexual assault, rape. Yeah. And you're going to give this guy three months in the county jail. It's like a slap on the hand. Is it? That's not even a slap. No, it's not.

That's a tickle in your underarm. It floors me. It ticks me off. I just don't get it. Now, again, we don't have all their particulars. And I know a lot of cases back then, some people didn't want to testify or, didn't want to say certain things because, and sometimes for good reason, they weren't sure that these people were going to get what they deserved. And I think you and I are well aware, oftentimes they didn't. Many times they didn't for sure. Samuel Little then moved to the Gulf coast and attacked women on his way there. He assaulted two sex workers in Pascagoula, Mississippi. He was arrested for shoplifting in Pascagoula in November 1982. When police saw that he matched the description of a suspect who was wanted in the murder of a woman named Melinda Rose

LaPrie. He was charged with murder. In October, 1982, the remains of Melinda LaPrie were found in Godier, Mississippi. She was last seen in Pascagoula in September, getting into a car with a man who matched Samuel Little's description. Not looking good for Samuel. No, no, it's not. I don't think it's going to look good. good for him in a lot of instances, but what fate is he really going to suffer? That's going to be the big question. During the investigation, two sex workers claimed that Little assaulted them in Pascagoula. Now, they survived these attacks and would go on to testify against him many years later. He received two aggravated assault charges for these attacks. And this is a strange

case to do gives because we're talking about, you know, a lot of crimes committed by this man, Samuel Little. Some of this stuff is not going to come out, right, for many years. When we talk about somebody later testifying, that's going to come way down the road. But he was just such a bad person when you think about it. I mean, we know about the murders, but all the other crimes that he did that kind of let him up to his murder, he's all over the place. He didn't have a problem doing anything.

I think, I think it was just a bad guy. Yeah. You know, he, he just, uh, he didn't care. He wanted what he wanted.

And he didn't care who he hurt in order to get what he wanted. And I think there are a lot of people like that. These are scary people. You know, they don't conform to kind of the norms that most of us do. They don't have the, the same reservations about, doing this or that, whether it's for moral reasons or because it's illegal and they're afraid of

getting in trouble. Right. It just don't seem to care about any of it. No. Unfortunately, a grand jury chose not to indict him on any of these charges. He was then extradited to Florida for the rape and murder of Patricia Ann Mowell in Gainesville. On October 12, 1982, Patricia Mounce's body was found in Forest Grove, Florida. She was last seen leaving a bar with Samuel Little.

So this is kind of, this is going to be a trend, right? Throughout this episode. The last thing that you want to be known for is being last seen with this man, Samuel Little, because it means most likely something bad happened to you. Knowing what comes out later about Samuel's M.O. It had to be a nightmare for these women to spend their last hours or day.

with this guy. In January 1984, little went to trial for the murder of Patricia Ann Mow but was acquitted on all charges. What a great justice system. Well, at what point do you start to believe that you're untouchable, you're Teflon? You can do whatever you want

because you just keep getting away with it. And I'm sure that's exactly how he felt. Now, I think he probably would have just continued to do it regardless, but Samuel later said that being tried for murder did not decrease his desire to be a criminal. He would continue killing many more women in the South and Midwest. Well, how could it decrease his desire? Because he's not facing any repercussions, like we just said.

Yeah, he's going on trial, but he's not doing time. By late 1984, Samuel moved on to Southern California, where he was arrested for assaulting and raping two women in San Diego. On September 26, 1984, the woman named Lori B was walking to her friend's apartment in San Diego. Samuel approached her from behind,

grabbed her in a chokehold, and dragged her into his car. He told her that he had purchased $150 worth of cocaine. He drove to a deserted lot near the freeway. He pulled Lori into the back seat and forcibly kissed her.

She pushed him away. This made him, angry and he choked her again. Lori asked Little not to hurt her and said she would cooperate if he raped her. Little responded by saying that he didn't want to rape her and he told her that he loved her. Okay. That's a different twist. It's such warped thinking, right? What is love? Well, this isn't it. I can tell you that. He pulled off Lori stockings, underwear and shoes. He tied her hands behind her back with her stockings, then choked her until she went unconscious. When she woke up, she asked him not to hurt her and said again that she would cooperate.

He ignored her. He asked her to swallow because he said he liked a feeling of her swallowing as he held his hands around her neck. So back to the fascination he had with necks, right? and strangulation kind of all combined into one. Lori later testified, oh, it became a game right before I would go unconscious. And I'm sure he was able to see my eyes roll back into my head because I'd feel it. He'd lift up just enough pressure so I would not go unconscious, asked me to swallow again, press down harder so I would almost go unconscious again. And it just kind of kept going until I completely went out, blacked out.

I'm telling you, man, this is one sadistic SOB. It's just a big game to him. Yeah, I'm going to get my pleasure. No matter who gets hurt, I just don't care. When Lori woke up, she tried to scream, but she couldn't. I didn't have a voice. Well, I know sometimes it's hard for me to get through two podcasts and one night. Right.

I can't imagine if somebody was holding some, their hands around my neck so tightly that I was, you know, going in and out of consciousness. Little pulled her against his body and rubbed his penis against her. But he couldn't maintain an erection. And this made him angry. So he choked Lori until she went unconscious again. She said at some point she remembered being pushed out of the car onto a pile of trash. Samuel got on top of her, put his zubes.

knees on her chest and choked her until she went unconscious. He was really into this choking. Yeah, I kind of am thinking as we go through this, how much of it is the physical act of choking and how much of it is the power? You hear that a lot from serial killers later on, you know, this euphoria or this rush that they derive from complete and utter power over another human being. And it's so sickening to me because I would never think that that would, for the lack of a better term, get somebody off to hurt somebody, to exert your power over them.

I just don't get it, man. But I guess that's what separates us from these people that we talk about. Yeah. I guess if we did get it, there'd be something wrong with. us, right? We all would be these animals. When Lori woke up, her bra was lifted above her chest. She said that she stayed still for at least 30 minutes and pretended to be dead. She was so scared that Samuel Little would come back and hurt her. Once she felt safe enough to move, she made her way to a pay phone and called a friend. She received treatment for her injuries at the hospital.

I mean, how lucky was this woman? She wasn't lucky in regards to what happened to her. That was brutal, but how lucky was she to have survived this encounter with Samuel Little, especially, you know, at some point later on, she's going to find out how bad he really could be. And how many women did not survive these types of encounters. Lori would later testify. I really knew this wasn't about rape. It wasn't about assault. It was about death, power, and control whether or not I was going to live.

I think that goes back to what we were just talking about. So could it also be that someone like this would get a rush from allowing someone to live? Because that's power as well, maybe in their eyes. I can kill. I have the power to do that. Yeah. But I also have the power to allow you to live. So I'll let you live this time.

Yeah, I just wonder. I wonder if that, if it cuts both way. Well, I think it can. I definitely feel like he got a big kick out of the, let me squeeze your throat as tight as I can until you pass out, wait a little bit, you wake up, let me do it again and again and again. Yeah, because it's power. I'm controlling you by my action. On October 25th, 1984, San Diego police officers Lewis to Magni and Wayne Spees were on patrol. They were driving near an abandoned lot that was a known crime. hotspot. They drove down a dirt road and they found a car that matched the description of the car in the Lori B case. They turned on their lights and that's when they saw a black male exit the vehicle.

Officer Tamagney later identified this man as Samuel Little. Little was zipping up his pants and he seemed nervous. He repeatedly looked back and forth between the officers in his car. When the officers asked him to walk over, he said, it's nothing. It's just my wife and we're fighting. So number one, I'm always nervous when I exit a car while I'm zipping up my pants and I see police officers. That's just, you know, first things first. But I think these two guys knew or at least had the suspicion that something was going all. And when Little got closer, they could see bloody scratches on his neck. Tamagney looked into the car and he saw a naked woman in the back seat later identified as tanya j tanya's legs were spread

and her torso and head were on the floorboard between the two front seats her lips and mouth were bloody and it looked as though she had been beaten her eyes were said to have rolled into the back of her head and she was struggling to breathe so there's detail in these descriptions And I said it earlier, I think some of this is very important for the audience to really have a true understanding of what a monster Samuel Little was. This was a very brutal, vicious, beating, sexual assault. It was nasty. This man was nasty. Tanya told the officers that Samuel Little raped her. an officer attempted to interview her at the hospital. But at that point, she was in severe shock and she really couldn't speak. Samuel was also taken to the hospital for an exam.

On the way there, he told the police, that bitch didn't give me my money's word. She's going to give it to me or else. This is what he's saying to the police. Sure. Yeah. And why wouldn't he? What are they going to do to him as far as he thinks in his mind?

Yeah, there's a couple of thoughts that run through my head. That's one, which is, yeah, okay, you got me, but there's not going to be any repercussions. The other thought that I had was, you know, how bad does he really think what he's doing is? If he's willing to sit there and tell police that she's going to give it to me or else I'm going to hurt her. Right. That's not the type of stuff you tell police when they already think you beat the, you know what out of somebody. and raped them. He claimed that he met Tanya at a bar downtown

and she agreed to perform a sexual act on him for $20. She gave him directions to the lot where the two were later found. They got into the back and Tanya, according to Little, started playing with it. But Little wanted more and Tanya refused. He told her that she wasn't going anywhere

until they had sex. He claimed he attacked her in self-defense and she deserved it. Okay. Wow. Are you kidding me? First of all, where's your self-defense argument? You got your tallywack her out. Exactly. And you're trying to protect it. You're trying to protect yourself. I mean, it's such a dumb argument to make. And on top of that to say she deserved it, you're just a POS of the highest order, man. I don't know what else to say about this guy. Yeah, he feels like he doesn't do anything wrong. I think there is a part of that. You know, what's going on in his mind that would make him say some of these things other than,

hey, these guys are going to understand what I'm saying because we had a deal. Disregard the fact that it was a deal for sex, you know, sex for money. Disregard the fact that I beat this woman almost to death. and I raped her. We had a deal. Right. I really think that's what this guy was thinking. I agree with you. That's why he thought he did nothing wrong.

Because if he did think he did something wrong, why would he be saying these things? Samuel Little went to trial for both cases. But the trial ended in a mistrial because of a deadlocked jury. He pleaded guilty to aggravated assault and false imprisonment against both Lori and Tanya. And on August 14th, 1985, little was admitted to a California state prison for these charges. He was released on February 1st, 1987 and discharged from parole on May 31st, 1991. It's so messed up. It really is. So he didn't even do two years.

No. And then he was on parole for what? About four years after he was released. And as we'll learn, he committed several murders during the four years that he was on parole. Yeah, not a good guy. But what this did do is, you know, after this conviction, he was forced to submit a DNA sample, which then went into the FBI's national database. So I think we're both in an agreement that the sentence was light, very light, but I guess if there was anything good that came about it,

it was the fact that they now had his DNA in the database. After he was released, he moved to L.A. And as we've profiled, the number of serial killers, you know, back during the 80s in Los Angeles, there was a lot of homicides. It really was. The homicide rate was high. You had the crack epidemic. You had a lot of gang activity.

But you also had a lot of serial killers. And I think serial killers, many of them took advantage of what was going on, everything else that was going on. There were a number of active serial killers in L.A. at the same time, which when you combine those murders with all the other homicides, how difficult was it for detectives to solve,

you know, some of these cases, especially before advancements in DNA testing came along. Yeah, extremely tough. Three murders in California from the 1980, led to Samuel Little's arrest. But it would be many years before he was caught,

before he was arrested and identified. Is the killer, the LAPD gave him the vulgar nickname of the choke and stroke killer. Choking stroke killer. Wow. This is what they gave them. Now, we've talked about a lot of serial killer nicknames, if you will, over the years.

sometimes those are given by the press, sometimes the police. This seems to be kind of a behind the scenes LAPD thing. Because I can't imagine a detective talking to a paper and saying, we're calling this guy the choke and stroke killer. Yeah, for sure they didn't want that out there. No, but obviously it did get out there at some point. On July 13th, 1987, a body was found in an alley behind a house on East 27th Street in Los Angeles. The victim was a black woman. She was found naked from the waist down. Her shirt was pulled over her

bra. She was missing her shoes and one sock. There were drag marks near her feet, which indicated she was killed somewhere else and then later put in the alley. She was later identified as Linda Alfred by her daughter. Linda's cause of death was asphyxia as a result of manual strangulation. She had bruises near her jaw, hemorrhages around her eyes, and scratches on her neck that came from fingernails. There was also hemorrhaging under her scalp that was consistent with some type of a blow to the head. She also had hemorrhaging to her voice box and to her hyoid bone. And I know that's a very important bone when it comes to strangulation. In a lot of cases that we've talked about or that I've studied, it's that brinkered.

it's that broken hyoid bone that often, you know, kind of screams strangulation. On August 14th, 1989, an LAPD detective found a body in a dumpster behind a nightclub and restaurant on East 7th Street. This victim was white. She was naked from the waist down and her sweatshirt was pulled up over her shoulders. She was said to have been dirty and she had drag marks on her back. her rear end and heels. The victim was later identified as Audrey Nelson.

Audrey's cause of death was strangulation. The front of her neck was bruised and her thyroid cartilage and hyoid bone were fractured. Her throat muscles showed signs of hemorrhage and there were fingernail marks on her throat. She also had what was described as a pre-death blunt force trauma consistent with having been punched repeat in the head. She had such severe bruising underneath her skin that it extended to her chest muscle, stomach and abdomen. Gibbs, part of her spine was crushed by some type of blow

to her upper abdomen. This was extremely brutal. And you know, the first thing that it makes me think about is Samuel Little talking about how he could have been this great boxer. Right. Okay. Was he a hard puncher? Probably. Could he have punched someone so hard in the stomach that he crushed this woman's spine? Possible. I don't make the hair stand up on the back of your neck just thinking about it. Yeah. This was definitely a very vicious beating. Yeah, yeah, no doubt about it. On September 3rd, 1989, the LAPD found a third body at an abandoned auto repair shop on South Ascot Avenue.

The woman was naked from the waist down. A shoe was found near her body. She had bruises on her neck and abrasions on her buttocks. She was identified as Guadalupe Apodaca. Guadalupe died from manual strangulation. Her larynx and hyoid bones were fractured. You must be really squeezing the victim's neck really hard. Well, I'm thinking he was a.

pretty powerful guy. Strong hands. Could have been a boxer. You've got to keep that image in your mind as nasty and unsettling as it is. She had small points of bleeding on her eyes, bruises on her eyes and nose and a cut on her lower lip. Bruises on her chest showed that someone kneeled on her while they strangled her. Bruises on her forehead and eyes showed that she was.

received blunt force trauma to the face and head. There was also evidence that she had been anally raped. Again, he's continuing his cycle of being vicious. Well, I think the one thing that's abundantly clear is that this is a man who puts no value whatsoever on human life. He just doesn't care. He's going to do what he wants to do. Whatever makes him feel good or whatever gets him going.

And whoever gets hurt in the process, that's not his concern. That's the thought that I have in my mind. Detectives noticed the similarities between the three deaths. Medical examiner Christopher Rogers reported, in each case, the deceased person was a woman of a particular age between 35 and 46. They had all been strangled manually. They all had blunt trauma in addition to the strangulation. each of them was new from the waist down when they were originally found. All three were found in South Central Los Angeles.

And they all had cocaine in their blood. And two of them had alcohol. So this occurred in a two year period, right? 87 to 89 in L.A. But we've already talked about how Samuel Little kind of had a pattern of moving on quickly after committing a murder. And because of this, he wasn't caught until 2012.

When advancements in DNA testing finally led to his arrest, he continued traveling across the southwest and eventually made his way back to Ohio. From 1998 to 2000, Little pleaded guilty to attempted robbery and he spent some time in jail. By 2007, Samuel Little had returned to L.A.

where he was arrested for drug possession. He pleaded guilty and was ordered to attend a rehab program, but he never showed up. So police issued a warrant for his arrest. In April 2012, LAPD Detective Mitzi Roberts was working with the cold case homicide unit. There were over 9,000 cold cases at the time. The unit was focusing on cases with rape kits and other biological evidence. She noticed the similarities between the three homicides back in the late 80s, and she began looking into Samuel Little and learned that he was living in South L.A. from 1987 to 1989. Detectives tracked his social security payments and found him at a shelter in Louisville, Kentucky.

So Detective Roberts sent detectives over to interview him and collect oral swabs. Detective Susan Antonucci traveled to Louisville on September 5th, 2012. To obtain the DNA samples, Samuel Little was founded a homeless shelter and arrested on a drug charge. Investigators tested his DNA and they connected him to the three murders in California between 1987 and 1989. Those were the murders that involved victims, Linda Alford, Guadalupe Apodaca. and Audrey Nelson. So it took a long time. It did.

But advancements in DNA kind of made it possible to connect him. In 2012, DNA analyst Amanda Mendoza from Bode Technology Laboratory tested a sexual assault kit and clothing from the Linda Alford case. This was compared to Linda's blood and DNA from a cheek swab from Samuel Little. Seaman found on Linda's shirt was tested, and it contained a mix of Linda and Samuel Little's DNA. The right and left cop of Linda's bra had DNA from three or more people, including Linda herself and at least one male. And it was reported that the male's DNA profile was consistent with Samuel Little. In 2011 and 2012, Molly Megahyhee, a DNA analyst.

from cell mark forensics received a sexual assault kit and a fingernail scrapings kit from the Audrey Nelson case. The DNA from the sperm and the sexual assault kit matched Audrey and an unknown male

which turned out to not be Samuel Little. Okay. DNA analysis from the fingernail scrapings was inconclusive. But DNA analysis from fingernail clippings from Audrey's right hand.

hand contained Audrey's DNA and DNA from an unknown male. Fingernel clippings from Audrey's left hand tested positive for blood and had both Audrey's and Samuel Little's DNA. Okay. Now we're getting some. So there's a lot going on here. A whole lot. Number one, you have this sexual assault kit.

So you have semen, but you've got fingernail scrapings as well as fingernail clippings from both hands and the results of each hand are kind of different, which is not out of the ordinary, right? We touch so many different things. Yeah, it certainly can happen that way. Throughout the day. But at least the clippings from her left hand contained Samuel Little's DNA. Jennifer Sampson, a DNA analyst from Bode, found that Samuel Little's DNA matched the major contributor to DNA found on two pieces of Guadalupe Apodaca's shirt. So three murders, his DNA, at least in some part, is connected to all three. Yeah. Coincidence? I don't think so. I don't think so either. I'm sure the police didn't think so. So at the very least, police are going to want to talk to Samuel

little, right? DNA matches and all that. He told the police that from 1987 to 19, He was living in San Diego and South Central L.A. A detective showed little pictures of Audrey Nelson and Guadalupe Apodaca. And he claimed that he'd never seen them before. Oh, sure. He's going to act like he never met them, never knew them. Well, it's either that or, you know, implicate yourself. What are most people going to do most killers? Now, he also said that he was impotent and couldn't have sex. But he, he was. he could still ejaculate and produce sperm. Okay.

I don't even want to tell my doctor something like that. I sure as hell don't want to sit around the police station telling a bunch of detectives these intimate details of my sex life or non-functioning sex life, whichever it may happen to be. Yeah, yeah. You don't need to expand on that with anybody. But is there a reason for Samuel Little to throw that out there? Of course there is. On January 7, 2013, L.A. law enforcement announced that they arrested 72-year-old Samuel Little in connection with three murders in California.

They also said that he was suspected of murders across the country. He was extradited to California from Kentucky and charged with three counts of murder with special circumstances for multiple murder. In April of that year, he was indicted on three counts of murder. with special circumstances for multiple murder, several women from California and Mississippi came forward to testify about being attacked by Samuel Little. I bet that floodgate just kind of opened up at that point. Well, I think it might tend to when you violate the number of people that this guy did. Yeah.

Especially if they're getting ready to try you for murder, they start to look into your past. They try to connect unsolved murders, rapes, everything that they can. Yeah, I think some people are going to come out of the woodwork and say, yeah, that's my attacker. Yeah, that's him right there. So let's talk about some of these women who ended up testifying against him. On July 31st, 1980, Samuel Little approached a woman named Hilda Inn in Pascagoula, Mississippi. he told her that he remembered her from the shipyard.

But Hilda did not remember seeing this guy before. She told Samuel that she was looking for a date and the two agreed on a $50 price for sex. Samuel purchased her a beer and they went to Hilda's apartment. But as soon as Hilda closed the door, Samuel punched her in the back of the head and choked her until she went unconscious. When she woke up, she found herself on the bed with Samuel holding her down, choking her and hitting her in the face. She lost consciousness again. When she woke up, she was naked in the bathtub, which was full of water. Samuel tied a scarf around her neck. He pulled her by the scarf and pushed her head underwater. When Hilda tried to fight him, he repeatedly punched her in the

face. At some point, Hilda's friend knocked on the window to check on her, and Samuel answered that she was taking care of business. Taking care of business. Wow. Well, he was brutal. In every sense of the word. And I think he was Gibbs in almost every interaction he had in his life. When Hilda woke up again, she was at the hospital. She couldn't speak, and she had severe bruising on her face, neck and chest. She didn't tell the truth about what happened, instead saying she was the victim of a home invasion, which in a sense is not entirely untrue. But I also understand why she wouldn't want to come forward with the entire truth because she would actually implicate herself in a crime. And I think that's part of the problem that sex workers encounter. It can be very tough to go to police to say that

you know, someone has assaulted them or that they've been a victim of a crime because they don't want to be charged with a crime themselves. Right. There should be some type of law in the books that says that's the case. You will not be prosecuted for your action. Yeah, we know, okay, technically you were doing something that we've deemed to be illegal, but you were the victim of a serious physical crime. And so, okay, we set that to the, side and we just focus on this. I agree with you. I kind of think of like the whistleblower act. You know, it came up in that show I was watching the dropout. Yeah. Where people were afraid to talk out because they had signed all these NDAs. Right. But the one young woman was able to go to a government

agency and so she, you know, acquired whistleblower status. Yeah. But they were also, I remember that show. they were very intimidating to people that they thought might try to speak against them. Yeah, but that's why I'm drawing the parallel. Yeah. Do you not think that it would be intimidating for a sex worker to walk into a police station and try to report a crime and honestly go through the machinations of how it happened, where it happened, the context, and not think, well, they're probably going to charge me with the crime. Right.

In November, 1982, the Pascagoula police contacted Hilda after the murder of Melinda Rose LaPree. And she told them what really happened in a formal statement. She even identified Samuel Little in a set of photographs. This is all the way back in 1982. Yeah. Hilda was supposed to testify against. Samuel. But when she saw him in court, she became so terrified that she urinated on herself. And so they released her from testifying. If that doesn't tell you how scary this man was, I don't know what

else would. The experience she went through at the hands of this man led to just the mere sight of him in a courtroom surrounded by bailiffs and, everybody else causing her to pee on herself. Yeah. How sad is that? Very sad. On November 19th, 1981, Samuel Little drove up to a woman named Lila M,

who was walking on the street. He asked her, do you date? She told him yes and said that she charged $50 for a date. She told him that her home was just around the corner. But Little insisted on going to a hotel. Lila noticed that they drove past a hotel. She told him to turn around, but he said, I don't need to turn around for what I want to do to you.

Okay, it's very ominous. It is. You have to imagine the fear that, you know, would be coursing through this woman at that point in time. When you hear that, something goes off in your brain, right? I'm in a bad situation. Yes. He punched her in the back of the head. He stopped driving.

and continued to punch and choke her. Lila scratched him, she kicked, she bid him. She was able to escape from the car a few times. But each time Samuel Little caught her and brought her back. A young boy riding a bike passed through the area and asked her if she needed help. But she couldn't speak because Little was in the process of choking her. Samuel told the boy, she's drunk. that's my old lady.

That seemed to be one of his go-toes, right? If confronted by someone, oh, that's my wife. That's my girlfriend. She's been drinking. We're fighting, whatever. Go about your business. Leela climbed through a window in the backseat of the car and ran through traffic to escape. Someone picked her up and took her to the hospital.

But police never came to the hospital to take a statement. and she never went to them. In 1982, the Pascagoula police took her to the station for questioning. She identified Samuel Little as her attacker in a photo lineup. And she went with Hilda in to a court hearing, but they didn't talk because as we mentioned, Hilda was so scared. She urinated on herself and she was dismissed. And Lila left with her saying to papers later,

I felt like they wasn't going to do nothing no way. And we touched on that earlier. You know, how many times in cases over the years have we talked about people saying, you know, I didn't come forward or I didn't do this or I didn't do that because I knew they weren't going to do anything to this person anyway. So why put myself out there? Lori B also came forward to once again testify about the bros. brutal attack. She survived back in 1984. So all of these women, you know, coming forward,

some of them testifying, some of them not able to testify. In the end, on September 12th, 2014, Samuel Little was convicted of three counts of first degree murder with a multiple murder special circumstance. And on September 25th of that year, he was sentenced to three life sentences without the possibility of parole. So it's been slap after slap. Sure. But now you got hit with the hammer of four. Yes. Big time. Big time. Three life sentences. You're never getting out. And it's a big turning point in this case, obviously, because he's not going to hurt anyone from this point forward. Right. But it's also because a few years down the line from this. sentence is when he's going to start to reveal everything that he's done.

At his sentencing hearing, Samuel screamed, I didn't do it, which is strange because what you often hear people scream is, you got me, you did it right, I did do it. Yeah. You never hear that one. No, you don't. Prosecutors at his 2014 trial told the court that Samuel Little was most likely responsible for at least 40 murders. Since 1980, at the time of his trial, the police were looking to connect him to murders in Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, Ohio, and Texas.

It's a lot of states. It's a lot of states. It's a very big number of murders. And the number that we'll talk about in episode two is going to be even higher than that. So in part two, we'll discuss Samuel Little's confession. his murder charges in other states and some of the unsolved homicides that he has confessed to you know i'm just glad he got hit really hard there towards the end with those life sentences as hard as he was punching those victims he got a little taste of that medicine when that uh judge put him away for

three life sentences how good do you think the prosecutor or prosecutors feel when that verdict comes back and then that sentence is handed down. Pretty good. It's a big wind. Well, because they know everything. Yeah. Right? They're privy to all the information.

And to have to pour through the details, kind of like what you and I do, it can be very tough on you to, you know, constantly be reviewing what are really nasty incidents. Right. And nasty details. So they have to feel for these victims, much like we do when we talk about them,

it has to be a lading to get this victory and know that this guy is never going to be on the streets again to perpetrate this kind of crime against someone else. Yeah, this is definitely somebody needed to be put away. Yeah, absolutely. But we don't have much of a wrap-up because we've got part two next week. We do have some voicemails.

You want to check those out? Oh, I love voicemails. Hi, guys. This is Pam from Huntington, West Virginia. I love y'all. Both of y'all so very much. Your podcast gets me through my day. I just wanted to know, have you done a podcast about West Virginia crime or anything of that nature?

Not too far away from you guys. So have a good day. Keep your own time and think of me. Well, I'm going to defer to our resident historians. Mike Gibson, have we done any West Virginia cases? Because I'm not thinking of one right off top of my head. You know, I think we've done one. Okay.

I'm not sure if we've done more than that. Do you have any details on the one? I do not have the details at this time. So you're really just talking out of your ass like you very often do. But I'm cool with it. It was very authoritative. So I felt as though there was some real conviction behind. Yeah, I really still behind that one.

Yeah, I did spend a month in Huntington one night. Did you really? Yeah, yeah, it was something else. Did you just say he spent a month one night? Yeah, have you never heard that saying? No. Or some people say a week or a month or a year. It just felt that long, huh?

Yeah, yeah, it did. Hi, Mike and Giddy. I'm, as they say, a long-time listener, first-time caller. This is Carrie from Illinois. I've been listening to the show since 2017. I used to live in Minnesota, and I was a traveling salesperson, and drove all around Minnesota, and all during the days that I was out driving, I was listening to you guys. And I just wanted to say congrats on your 300th episode.

It's so cool to have been around since fairly early on in the beginning, and it's been awesome just to keep up with the show, constantly listening to episodes as they cut out. And yeah, I wish you guys all the continued success. Thanks so much. Bye. Well, that was a great voicemail. We really appreciate it.

And you really had been around since near the beginning. If you were around in 2017. Yeah. Hey, guys. I love the show, big fan. I have to tell you. I'm listening to the show. And when Givie said, cry wolf.

I literally spit my coffee across the room laughing so hard. It's okay. He would stop laughing. Too funny. Oh, my goodness. All right, guys. Love the show. Like I said.

Keep your own time. Take them. I love it when people spit their coffee out. I thought you were going to say you love it when people cry woof. It's wolf. Oh, now you're going to say it correctly. But it does crack me up as well. We had one thing in the mailback.

Patricia Welch sent us. some very cool stickers that she made on her cricket. Wow, cool. Yeah. My wife has a cricket. She makes a ton of stuff on it. It's actually a very cool machine. There are crickets all the time outside.

Do you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Making stickers. Making stickers. All right. Little buggers.

All right, everyone. That is it for our part one on Samuel Little. We'll be back next Sunday with the second and the last part on this nasty, nasty dude. Yeah. So for Mike. And Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.