True Crime All The Time - Shawna Nelson

Episode Date: May 4, 2020

Ignacio and Heather Garraus had made a great life for themselves in Greeley, Colorado. But, in 2004, Ignacio, a Greeley police officer, began an affair with a police dispatcher named Shawna Nelson. When Ignacio ended the affair, years later, Shawna didn't take it well. She set out to take out the one person whom she felt stood in her way of having a life with Ignancio and their son.Join Mike and Gibby as they talk about this love triangle that turned deadly. Shawna Nelson was willing to commit the ultimate sin to get what she wanted. She murdered Heather Garraus because she felt like she was standing in her way of having that life. But, the lengths that Shawna went to were shocking. The planning, the alibi, some of which Shawna pointed at her own husband as the killer. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise and donation informationAn Emash Digital ProductionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 181 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you? Doing good, man. How about you? I'm hanging in. Yeah. I think as we all are ready for the new normal.

Whatever that new normal is going to be. I'm ready for it. I'm ready for you and I to be able to sit down and eat lunch in a restaurant. Yeah. I'd like that. Yeah, you would. I mean, we share a meal at my house or whatever, but let's go to a bar and have a beer with some other people.

That would be great. There's been many days and nights I've been wanting to do that. Yep. And we'll get there. I know we will. But for right now, we've got to do what we've got to do. Yeah. For you and I, that includes trying to put out podcasts.

I think that helps some people. Does. through this. For others, it's, you know, they're on the front line doing things to help the rest of us get through. Everybody's doing their part. Gives, we have had a tremendous amount of support lately. And I can't thank everyone enough. You know, it's a trying time for everyone. But for people to make the conscious decision to say, hey, we want to help these guys. It really means a lot. It does. We really appreciate it. So let's give some new Patreon supporter shoutouts. We had Kate Sandgren.

Hey, Kate. Brianna Haley. What's going on, Brianna? Susan Gattrow, jumped out at our highest level. Hey, Gattro. Christy Milam. Hey, appreciate it, Christy. Gwyn Springer.

Hey, Jerry Springer's off spring. Linda. Yeah. Hey, Linda. David Schaff jumped out of our highest level. What's going on, Shaft? Hope Brooks. Hey, Hope.

K. L. Bo. Well, thanks, K.L. Joanne Deacon. Oh, I appreciate it, Joanne. Elizabeth Kennett's. Hey, Elizabeth. Christy Pierce. Thanks, you, Christy.

Janie Adams jumped out at our highest level. Awesome, Janie. Dominique. Hey, Dominique. Haley Klein's. Good old Haley. Miguel Jorge. Hey, Miguel.

Did you just say McGuil? I did. In some countries, it might be pronounced Miguel. It just don't, you know, it depends on how hard you want to hit that letter. Sure. Yeah. Or combination of. You are right.

Cheryl Eman. Hey, Cheryl. Lynn Raglan jumped out higher than our highest level. And I'll be stepping up. Thanks, Lynn. Tatum, Batista jumped out at our highest level. Tatum, what's up? As did Serene Gann.

Man, thanks, Serene. And then last but not least, we had Gillian Garnum. Hey, Garnham. So, big shout out to the new Patreon supporters. And then if we go back into the Vault Gibbs, this week we selected Beverly Salmon. Yeah. Or salmon. I just don't know.

Beverly. Or Beverly. Yeah. We know that part for sure. We do. But, you know, just a huge thanks to her and everyone that continues to support the show month after month. It's amazing. We had some great PayPal donations as well.

Matt made a sizable donation Gibbs for his girlfriend, Veronica Bacera's birthday. Yeah. And he wanted to make sure you knew it was sizable. Yes. Huge. Huge. Very large amount. Or as some people would say, huge.

That too. Without the age. No. But it was very nice. Yes. He reached out and I thought that was pretty cool. Karen Martin. Hey, Karen.

Mike Holbert. What's going on, Mike? Kathy Snyder. Hey, Kathy. And Joanna Rossiter. Hey, Joanna. So thank you all very much as well. Gibbs, right now, we have an episode out on True Crime All the Time Unsolved.

It's very interesting. It is. We're talking about the unsolved murder of Ken McElroy in small town, Skidmore, Missouri. And I think what's so different about this episode, you know, normally you and I are talking about murder victims in glowing term. Yeah. Not in this case. No.

Because no one liked Ken McElroy. I mean, maybe outside of his wife and his family. Right. Essentially, the whole town hated this. guy. Yeah. And I don't want to give anything away because I want people to listen to the episode. Right. But suffice it to say that when he was killed, not a whole lot of people, well, let's say, no one stepped forward to say, let us help you with figuring out who did it. We're here to tell you who did it. And they were not. They were not. All right, Gibbs. Are you ready to get into

this episode of true crime all the time? I really am. We are headed out to call. Colorado to talk about a love triangle that ended in murder. You got to watch those love triangles, Gibbs. Yeah, you do. You know, very rarely do they end up well? They just don't. I don't think they ever end up well. And my view is probably pretty jaded given the fact that I'm researching murder all day.

And you are as well. Right. But how many really can end well? There's no good outcome. You know, I'm sure some people end it and their spouses never find out and everybody goes on with their lives. Right. But is that the majority?

Now, they don't all end up in murder as this one does, but I would have to say a lot of them don't end up well at all. Well, I think somehow, some way somebody gets hurt. The man at the center of this love triangle is a man named Ignacio Garris. He was called Ig for short. and Ignacio met a pretty girl named Heather while the two were in college. They were instantly attracted to one another. They began dating.

And after they graduated from college, they married in 1991. They settled in the town of Greeley, Colorado, where Ig ended up working for the Greeley Police Department. Heather later got a job at a credit union, but she also had the job of being a police officer's wife. That can't be easy, right? To be the spouse of a police officer. There has to be some level of anxiety for spouses of officers. First of all, it's a very dangerous job. And I have to imagine, Gibbs, that it's extremely tough every time they leave for their shift. Yeah, no doubt about it. It's got to be difficult, especially if they're in a really crime-ridden area. Yeah, I mean, I think

back to my wife, right? When I did have a job, when I left for the morning, I don't think she was that worried about me going to the office. Wasn't a great chance of something really bad happening to me. That's not the same with the police officer. They are out on the streets. They're putting their lives on the line. There's a lot of danger. I mean, you just never know what can happen. Right. You know, that car you walk up on. At any moment could be somebody that's going to pull trigger on you. Yeah. And not only do officers have to live with that, but their spouses do as well.

Right. The couple had a daughter named Victoria in 1997. It seemed as though life was really good for the couple. Friends and family saw them as kind of this, you know, on paper, perfect couple. Their life seemed to be going very well. But in late 2002, early 2000. early 2003, Heather suffered a series of blows. First, her father died from a heart attack.

And then a short time after that, she lost her mother to cancer. That's a lot for anyone to handle. Sure is. It's tough. And understandably, Heather had a tough time dealing with the loss of both of her parents and what was really a short amount of time. She suffered from some anxiety attacks. She suffered from depression.

So doctors put her on medication to help with both of these things. Her husband, Ig, later said that she became distant in the marriage as she was battling, you know, with these issues. And then in the summer of 2004, Ig met another woman and he made the faithful decision to stray from his marriage. The other woman was a police dispatcher. named Shauna Nelson. Shauna was also married and had two kids at home. Her husband, Ken Nelson, was a sheriff's investigator with Weld County. So Ignacio Garris and Sean and Nelson began a relationship in 2004.

Gibbs, they knew each other from work. Sure. And, you know, a lot of times, that's how all these things happen. You're around people, you see them, you get to know them. most cases like that, you're around those people more than you are, your spouse or other loved ones because you're at work all the time. Yeah, it can, it definitely can happen that way. But apparently these two, they'd bump into each other from time to time in town at coffee shops. I mean, you know, really, how does anything like this start?

The two began talking about their spouses. And specifically, some of the problems that each of them were having in their marriages, and the next thing you know, they're in a steamy love affair that they have to hide from their respective spouses. This affair went on for three years. I mean, this was no short-term thing. Shauna became pregnant with Ignacio's child in 2004, but she had an abortion. And I think Gibbs, you know, it was tough to keep this affair a secret in a town. like Greeley. You know, this is not a huge metropolis. Because it seems like a lot of people knew about it. Eventually in 2005, Shauna's husband Ken learned about the affair and he wanted a divorce.

So the couple split with Shauna taking the kids. Ig in later interviews said that he wanted to end the affair in 2004. The same year it started, but Shauna wouldn't have it. And, And he said she continually threatened to tell his wife, Heather about the affair if he tried to end it. Now, that said, I think it's right to be skeptical about anything that this guy has to say. Sure. Number one, he's a cheater. Right. But he could be telling the truth.

I have no idea. The guy put himself in this position. Well, sure he did. But at a certain point, he really could have. felt like he was stuck. He wants to end it, but doesn't want to risk his wife finding out. I mean, if you believe him, that's the way it went down. I don't know, Gibbs.

You know, for me, it's often hard to separate the reality from the BS and cases like this. Right. But I will say it's plausible. Well, it's plausible for sure, but that you could not be able to do something because of the threat of something you don't want to happen. Right. But I'll reiterate the fact that he put himself in that position. So you can't feel sorry for him in that respect.

Yeah, I mean, he made his own bed. He's got to lay in it. And unfortunately, he did lay in it. Yeah. With someone else. Yeah, that's the whole root of this problem. Shauna became pregnant again in 2005 with Ignacio's child. And this time, she decided to keep it.

He didn't want her to, but she said, you know what? Nope. This time I'm keeping it. And I thought it was incredible. But Shauna and her husband Ken reconciled in their marriage. Even with Ken knowing that this child was not his, he said, I'll come back. And he made the decision that he would raise this child as his own. That takes a certain type of person.

It does. To be able to do something like that. So the baby was born in March 2006, and they named him Christian. Now, I said that Ken decided to come back. My assumption Gibbs is that this reconciliation came with the promise that, okay, the affair was over. Right. Yeah.

We're all done, right? Yeah. I'll come back. Not I'll come back. You still keep sleeping with this other guy. Right. The problem is it was not over. Ig and Shauna continued to see each other in 2006, even after Shauna had gotten back together

with Ken. But everything came to a hit in December of 2006. That's when Heather finally caught Ignacio sneaking back into the house after he had been out to meet up with Shauna. So he had gotten away with it for a very long time. two, three years. As anyone could imagine, Heather was furious. And one of the big things that came out from, I mean, Ignacio himself, but also friends and

family of Heather was that apparently she had told him from the get-go, hey, if you ever cheat on me, that's it. We're done. We're done. This marriage is over. It was something she was very emphatic about. Now, let's face it, most women are. It's usually a big no-no and a huge sticking point for most people.

I think I'm really surprised how many women or men take each other back after infidelity. Obviously, it's hurtful. Sure. To find out that you've been cheated on. But I think, you know, there are people that say, okay, I don't want to throw away everything we've built. Right. And maybe that was so many years in the making over what may have only been one time or, you know, I don't know, whatever the situation is. Or one person. Yeah. And I think if you factor in kids and all that. Sure. But it's a thing that varies from people, you know, from person to person. And there's some people that will never get over it and wouldn't even think about taking their spouse back if it happened one time.

But I think you're right too. When you talk about if they have kids together, you know, sometimes you have to make that decision that what's more important? The outcome and the future of the kids or my ego would not be able to let go that you went out and messed around. Well, nobody knows until they're putting that position how they would react. But mentioning the fact that, you know, Heather had been so emphatic about this one thing. don't ever do this one thing. To me, Gibbs, even more of a reason for Ignacio not to cheat on her. Right.

And though once he did, maybe why he would have done anything to keep her from finding out. Sure. Because he knew this could spell the end of, you know, my marriage. Well, it's the only one thing she said, right? I only had one request. Well, I don't know. There could have been other requests. Yeah.

I just friends and family said that was one that was very, yeah, it also could have been, hey, you take out the garbage every Tuesday. Yeah, that's true. That part just wasn't talked about. Make sure you put your shoes away. Don't leave them out of the middle of the floor. I got you. Now you're just talking about my wife.

I am actually, yeah. Put your coat up, put your shoes up. So Heather knows that Ig has been cheating and she left him, just like she said she would do, but not for long. She came back within a couple of days and kind of like what we just talked about, Gibbs. She thought it over and said, you know what? I don't want to end our marriage. I want to save it.

But to do that, she had some conditions, right? Ig had to do a number of things. First thing that he had to do is in this affair with Sean. He also had to get tested to make sure that he hadn't picked up any diseases. Sure. Yeah. Which I think this is a good thing. Yeah.

And he had to go to counseling. He was all in, Gibbs. You know, I think he had to have felt like he got a reprieve from the governor. Oh, yeah. Because my assumption is he thought it's over. Right. Once she left, she was never coming back. And when she did, he was willing to do whatever he had to do to make things right.

I think most guys would, you know, if they lost their wife and now they had a chance to get her back. They're going to do what they can to keep her. I don't know how long they can keep it up, but they're going to try. But here's the thing. Sean and Nelson did not take Ignacio ending their relationship well at all. I really think that she was deeply in love with this guy and she wanted a life with him and their son. Despite the fact that she had gotten back with her husband. Right.

I think in her mind, she always saw. herself and Ignacio and their son as kind of building this life together. The problem is he wouldn't leave his wife. Gotta be like that song, man. Tor between two lovers. Who sings that? Because now I just think you're making up songs. I always think you're making up stuff.

Karen Carpenter maybe. Wrong. Wrong direction. Storm between two lovers? I have no idea. Won't you sing a bar? No way, man. That's on the premium account.

I don't know what you're talking about, but we'll go past. There's a song out there called Torn Between Two Lovers. I'm sure there is. There's a song out there almost called everything because we've run out of things to name songs. Mike and Gibby are arguing about a song. Yeah. But I have no idea what it is. That's the problem.

Normally I can get to where your mind is going. This time it's just not happening. I thought for sure you would know. No. All right. All right, Gibbs. Let's take a quick break. talk about some sponsors. Hey, if you own a car or a house, you know shopping for insurance is a mind

numbing soul-sucking process that can take forever. But the problem is you have to have insurance, but you don't have to overpay for it. You can get a lower rate for the exact same coverage you already have with help from Gabby. Gabby takes the pain out of shopping for insurance by giving you an apples to apples comparison of your current coverage with 40 of the top insurance providers. Just link your current insurance account and in about two minutes. You'll be able to see quotes for the exact same coverage you currently have. This is exactly what I did. I went on.

I linked to my current insurance provider within a matter of minutes. They came back and gave me a bunch of options to show me my savings. Gabby customers save $825 per year on average. And if they can't find you savings like they did for me, they'll let you know so you can relax knowing you have the best rate out there. Gabby is free to use and they'll never sell your info so you won't get those annoying spam or robocalls. So take two minutes right now to see how much you can save on your car and homeowners insurance. Go to gabby.com slash teacat. That's gabbi.com slash teacat. Gabby.com slash tecat.

You know what? We're all adapting to this changing world. And most of us are going to be buying more stuff online than ever before. If you're an e-commerce seller, are you ready to meet the demands of our new delivery culture? Well, be ready with ShipStation. It's the fastest, easiest, and most affordable way to manage and ship your orders. Just a few clicks, and you'll be managing your orders, printing out labels, and getting your product to happy customers. ShipStation makes it easy. No matter where you're selling, Amazon, Etsy, your own website, Shipstation brings all your orders into one simple interface. You can manage it from any device, even.

your cell phone and ship station works with all the major carriers they offer big discounts on shipping costs it's no wonder ship station is the number one choice of online sellers you'll ship more and less time with the best rates available and right now true crime all the time listeners can try ship station free for 60 days when you use our offer code teacat make sure your business is ready to meet the demands of the new delivery culture get started at shipstation.com today click on the microphone at the top of the homepage and type in TCAT, T-C-A-T-T-A-T-T-T-T, that shipstation.com, then enter offer code T-CAT. Shipstation.com, make ship happen. So, Shauna's ticked off. And she began sending threatening text messages to both Ignacio and Heather. One that she sent to Ig said,

my loyalty is gone. I loved you and trusted you and you fucked me. Be prepared. Okay, Gibbs, you get a text message like that that says be prepared. Not good, man. What do I need to prepare for? The fact that you're coming after me, if you sent that to me, take out the whole cheating and the man woman thing. Right. If you as a man send that to me saying, you know, you've effed me over. Right.

Be prepared. Shit's going down. I'm calling in the National Guard because I don't know what's going on. Shit's coming down, man. That's all I can say. It's not good, though. Now, hell half, no fury like a woman scorned. Right.

We know that. So he's got to be shaking in his boots, right? Ignacio does because that's not good to get a text message like that. Shauna sent a text to Heather with a picture of little Christian saying, hey, look, your husband's baby. Oh. It's always stir the pot a little bit, huh? Well, I don't know if she knew that part or not. I don't know the timing of it.

Right. But either way, it's kind of just feeding the fire. And then she sent one that basically challenged Heather to a fight. It said, anytime, anywhere, bitch. Man. To be love. Hey, to be love like that. Yeah.

I mean, she is, she's not a happy camper. Yeah. At this point in time, I think at this point, she's really kind of plotting her next. move. And we know it's not going to ultimately be a good move, but as a couple that's trying to reconcile, trying to get past this idea that, you know, the husband's had an affair, you, you have the person that he's had the affair with. She keeps texting. She keeps needling. Just sticking her nose, you know, making, you can't, how do you get past it? Well, you can't. As long as it's still happening.

you're not going to be able to get past it. You keep ripping the Band-Aid off of the sore. It's not getting better. You know, you keep having those conversations over and over again because that's what that does. On the evening of January 23rd, 2007, Heather Garris was leaving the credit union in Greeley, where she worked. This was just after 6 p.m.

It was dark. There was snow on the ground at the time. And there were a couple of her coworkers. Outside as she exited the building, Shauna Nelson, dressed in a black robe with black gloves and a black mask, was waiting for Heather. She confronted Heather with a gun and told her to get down on her needs. And then she shot her twice in the head, basically executed her. Yeah, right there.

911 was called very quickly. You know, the shooting was reported. They did rush Heather to the hospital, but she died. you know, very shortly, I think after, after getting there. But there were witnesses that actually saw this whole thing. You know, one witness said that this shooter said to Heather, you ruined my life before shooting Heather in the head. Now, witnesses didn't know who the killer was, you know, because obviously they were in disguise,

but they did tell police later that they believed it was a woman. Yeah. There was at least some of them that thought, okay, when this person turned around and ran based on height, just based on a couple of different factors, it didn't look like a man. It looked like a woman. Yeah, they could really tell that they thought it was a woman for sure. And at least one of Heather's coworkers gave police the name, Sean and Nelson as a possibility because of everything that had been going on lately. You know what it's like, Gibbs when you work in a place. I mean, you know, when you're going through things, you're bound to share some of those things with your co-workers, especially, you know, people that you've worked with for a long time that you've developed really good relationships with. Heather Garris was going through some really rough stuff. Yeah. She had to share it with somebody. And she might have even shown the text messages to people, but it does sound like at the very least, she had mentioned the name, Shauna Necky.

Nelson as a person that was, you know, giving her trouble because the coworkers pretty quickly said, hey, you might want to look at this woman named Sean and Nelson because they were having problems. Yeah, she's, she's had a history with her. So everything happened very quickly, right? The murder happened quickly. Sean is name went out on the police band as a possible suspect in the shooting very quickly. And her husband, Ken, heard the call. And he raced home with his partner to see if his wife was there. Okay. You're a police officer of some sort. You hear over the radio that your wife is a suspect, a possible suspect, and a murder. Ooh, we need to figure out what's going on here. Really quick, too. So on the way home, he spotted Shana, driving his

truck and basically stopped her in the middle of the road. This was about 6.30 p.m. 15 minutes after Heather Garris was shot, when Ken confronted his wife, he reportedly asked her, what did you do? And then really police got there. They stepped in and they took Shauna into custody. Inside the truck, they found a black Halloween-type mask. They didn't find a gun, though. But, witness has said that Shauna's husband Ken had retrieved something from the truck and they thought it looked like a gun. Police found a pair of size 10 men's shoes in a snowbank about 700 yards away from where

Shauna was stopped. Shauna was not wearing any shoes when police removed her from the truck and later Gibbs, they would find out that she was wearing her husband's underwear. Okay. And other clothing of his. So you have to wonder, why? Why would a woman be wearing men's underwear, her husband's clothing that's obviously much bigger probably than she was?

Why does she not have any shoes on? But yet her husband, what turned out later to be her husband's shoes are found essentially tossed out the window. Right. Hmm. You think it might be because she's trying to make. Yeah. Witnesses think that it was a man that shot Heather. And not only that gives, but her husband. Pretty deceptive. I think she was trying to be very deceptive. And obviously,

more of these details will come out as we go along, especially as we get, you know, into the trial. So police are questioning Sean at the station. And of course, she has no idea what they're talking about. She said, I didn't kill anything. anybody. I didn't want Heather Garris dead. She told police that she went out that night just after 6 p.m. to go to the liquor store because she wanted a bottle of wine. Okay. Many people do that. Sure. A lot of people like to get their wine on. I know you do. There's no problem with that. No. See a sip, take a sip. What was it? See a sip, take a sip. See a sip, take a sip. Yeah, it's kind of going around social media right now.

So if you see someone take a sip of something, you got to take the sip of it. You see someone do a chug? Oh. You got to do a chug. Okay. I got it. I didn't know what it meant at first. Yeah.

I got you. But I think the key to this interview is she's saying it wasn't me. I wasn't the screen character who shot and killed Heather Garris. That was the big thing. But police weren't buying her explanation of events. And she was arrested in charge with the. first-degree murder of Heather Garris. Because, you know, police began putting together, you know, all of the evidence against Shana. They talked to friends. They talked to her coworkers.

Everything started to come out. The affair. The threats. The baby. And the physical evidence started piling up as well. Gunshot residue testing on Shana after she was hauled in showed that she had it all over her. It was on her face. It was on her right hand. It was on some of the clothing she was wearing. Not good for her defense. No. I mean, not alone, probably enough for police to arrest her. They even found it on one of the shoes that was found, you know, in the snowbank that later it turned out to be Ken's. Now, I mentioned that the witness said they thought they saw Ken take what they thought was a gun from the truck. Right.

He later turned in his 40 caliber Glock to police. Not his service weapon. Well, it was his service weapon. Oh. But, and this is where things get murky, it was the gun that they thought had been used to kill Heather Garris. And it was the gun that they thought he had taken from the truck. So he's like, here you go.

You can test against this. Yes. Yeah. And ballistics confirmed that casings, found at the scene of Heather's murder match that gun. So there's a lot of things not looking good, but what do they all mean? And I think that's what I meant by, okay, it's a little murky. Right.

And some of it won't come out until trial what all of this stuff means. But enough of it is coming out. So they're going to get where they need to be, right? Yeah. I mean, I think police were looking at it as, okay, we found Shell. casings at the scene. They matched this gun. Ken Nelson took this gun from the truck that his wife was driving. She used it to kill Heather Garris. That's the, that's the connection that they're making. In the aftermath of the shooting and the death of Heather Garris, Shauna's husband, Ken,

resigned from the sheriff's department. And obviously, this was a big scandal. Police thought that he had taken this gun, he was later arrested and charged with evidence tampering. Shauna's best friend Michelle Moore was also later arrested and charged with conspiracy to commit first degree murder and attempted first degree murder. Wow. But both Ken and Michelle would strike deals with prosecutors and both would prove to be very crucial witnesses in the trial of Shauna Nelson. Michelle would receive a lesser charge and Ken would receive immunity from anything he said at trial.

Not not immunity from everything, but meaning, okay, nothing that he said at trial could be used against him at his later trial for evidence tampering. Right. He's still going to have to go on trial for that. But if they can't use what was said during that time, it's going to make it a little bit harder. Yeah, I mean, it's a good deal, I think, for both Michelle and Ken. It will turn out to be good for both of them. It's not going to turn out to be good for Shana Nelson. No.

Because you have her husband and you have her very best friend in the world who are now in essentially the back pockets of the prosecution. They're going to be star witnesses against her. Shauna's trial began in February 2008. The prosecution contended that Sean. Nelson murdered Heather Garris because she saw her as the one obstacle, keeping her from living this life that she wanted to live with Ignacio and their son Christian. Reminds me of that one movie where a woman comes back.

She desperately wants to be with him and she, I'm trying to think the actor's name. She boils the rabbit. The kid's rabbit. She boils the kid's rabbit. And the family comes home. Fatal attraction. Exactly. Now, good movie.

Who's in it? I know you were grasping for it. She's got a really wild, curly blonde hair in the movie. Yeah, just one of the biggest actresses ever. Yeah. Glenn Close. Yes. So who's the other big actor, the male actor?

It's Michael Douglas. Douglas. All right. Good job. Good job. We actually haven't had a movie reference in a while. And I think that was a perfect place for it. because that was a scary movie from the standpoint of what someone might do.

Right. To break up a marriage, to not let this affair end. There are a lot of similarities here. Yeah, I remember the ending, like the bathtub, right? I think. I hope about this right one. A lot of stabbing with the knives. That's all I remember.

So as we get into trial, some of Sean. as coworkers testified that she had told them she visualized the face of Heather Garris on her targets when she went out to the shooting range, which I think is something she did quite regularly. Her husband was a police officer. She was a police dispatcher. They probably went to the shooting range, you know, on a semi-regular basis. But Gibbs, probably not a great thing to tell your coworkers.

this if your plan is to later on murder this person. Yeah, not good. Should not say that. And I talked about Michelle Moore. She was a very big witness for the prosecution. She dropped some bombshells on the stand. She talked about how Shauna had repeatedly said she had to get rid of Heather Garris and that if Shauna couldn't have Ignacio, no one else could have him. either. Pretty damning statements. It really is. Michelle testified that Shauna drove her one night to the Garris home and handed her a pair of cutters and said, get out of the car, go cut the brake lines on Heather's car. It didn't happen. It wasn't something I don't think that Michelle was willing to do. But Michelle said the two talked extensively about how to get away with the murder of Heather's car. It didn't happen. It wasn't something.

Heather Garris, how to throw suspicion away from Shawna and how not to leave any DNA at the scene, which is critical. Very critical to a jury. This is Shauna's best friend. This is not, you know, a stranger off the street. They talked all the time. And there really was no doubt about what she was saying, Gibbs. She was putting herself out there. She helped Shauna Nelson plan the murder of Heather Garis. Now, she didn't participate in the shooting, but she did very much in the planning. Oh, yeah. She said she even told Shauna about picking up the shell casings and planting others. I mean, this is all very damaging. No doubt. Shauna's defense team did their best to discredit Michelle Moore. They had to. They had to figure out a way. They brought up the fact that when she was originally

interviewed by police. She denied any knowledge of any of this. She said that Shauna had never made threats against Heather Garris. And it was only after the prosecutors offered her a deal that she came out with some of these very damaging statements. But that's pretty natural. I mean, we see that in a lot of cases. Oh, many of them. Now, a lot of times you and I question that, right? We question the veracity. of people's statements who are only making them because they've received some type of deal from prosecutors. Yeah, anytime it benefits them, you've got to ask. I think you do. You have to be somewhat skeptical. The defense also tried to paint Michelle and Shauna as lovers. They basically said that Michelle had turned on Shauna after their relationship went sour. Now, Michelle Moore denied this

accusation during her time on the stand, she said they were never lovers. Ken Nelson testified that there was no way that his service gun could have been the murder weapon because he had it with him at the time of the murder. And this is where I said earlier, things got really murky around, okay, what was the murder weapon? Right. You know, you had a ballistics match to the weapon, Ken, turned over with shell casings found at the murder scene.

Well, I just said, right? As Shauna and Michelle were planning this out, they talked about it. Right. Take away the shell casings from the gun that you actually use and drop. And drop these other ones that just happened to come from your husband's weapon. Now, where could she have gotten those from? Well, they're shooting their guns together. at the target range.

The shooting range. Yeah. Right. I mean, when you go out to the shooting range, there are tons of empty shell cases. Yeah. At the end of a,

you know, if you shoot 100 rounds, there's 100 shell casings lying around. Not too hard to pick up four, five, six of them, put them in your pocket without your husband knowing.

To me, Gibbs, it even furthers this kind of theory that Shauna was trying to make all signs of, point to her husband as the person that killed Heather. And there's even more that's going to come out that we're going to talk about. But one thing that was important, there was one shell casing found at the scene that didn't match Ken Nelson's service weapon. So they're probably going to theorize

this came from the real murder weapon. They do. Now, they knew it came from a Glock. So their theory was Sean and Nelson used a Glock, not Ken's Glock, but a Glock that Ken had purchased for her, but that she said she had allegedly sold to someone on the street. That's pretty convenient. Sure it is. Yeah, I had a gun. And actually, she had a couple of guns, a couple of Glockes that she said, you know, I sold both of them.

Yeah. Who'd you sell them to? I don't know. Just some random person. Sure. Ken also testified that he stopped home. between 5, 515 the night Heather was killed, he said he searched for his wife and he found the bedroom door locked.

He knocked on the door, called out for her, but he didn't get an answer. He saw her purse and keys on the counter and assumed she was taking a bath so he left. I think he was working, right? He just stopped by real quick to maybe to see what was going on or see how things were gone. Yeah. Now, Shauna did take the stand. in her trial, and she was asked about the guns.

You know, that was something that the prosecution really tried to nail down. They had a hard time. She said at the time Heather was killed, the family didn't own any other guns besides the service weapon that Ken carried every day. They had owned previously two other Glockes, but she sold one in September of 2006 to a man outside a pawn shop in Loveland, Colorado. Okay. Well, you're not going to get a receipt when you sell a gun to a man on the street.

You can't back that up. But the prosecution also has the problem of proving that you didn't. Yeah, exactly, because it works both ways. It does. I mean, it is casting some doubt. She said she sold the other one in January of 2007 to get some money for a plane ticket to go visit her brother. Is she telling the truth? Is she not? There's no way to validate that information. There's not, but to me it does cast out and juries don't like that, right? Normally, juries want

to know, okay, what was the murder weapon? Sure. Cut and dry. You don't have cut and dry. No, you don't have it at all. Police don't have the murder weapon. They thought they did based on the shell casings that were found at the scene, but then they later figured out that, no, it couldn't have been that weapon. But that didn't stop them, obviously, from saying, you know, Shauna killed her. We just don't have the murder weapon. During her testimony, Shauna admitted that she did have a sexual affair with Michelle Moore that overlapped her affair with Ignacio Garris. But she said it ended the day before Heather was killed. So she's saying, I not only had an affair on Ken with Ignacio, I had an affair with this Michelle Moore, my best friend as well.

So maybe she's trying to set the stage here, maybe plant that maybe Michelle had something to do with this? Seems that way, right? Pretty convenient that she says, I ended the relationship with Michelle the day before Heather was killed. You could see where that might plant a little something in the mind of the jury that, okay, maybe it was Michelle. She was jealous. She killed Heather. maybe in an attempt to win Shauna back. Who knows?

I think we've got a real mastermind on our hands here. It seems like she thought she was. She was trying to be. Let's put it that way. Yeah, there you go. That's a good. Yeah. She definitely was trying to sow a lot of different seeds,

cast a lot of deception, you know, kind of muddy the waters in a lot of different ways, which it's not a bad idea if you're on trial. for your life. Sure. If you can create any reasonable doubt, it's beneficial. But there was a lot to Shauna's testimony. She spent quite a bit of time on the stand. She did have a lot of things that she had to try to explain, right? Some that we've already talked about. To me, I think the most fascinating part of her testimony was about that night, the night of the murder, what she did and all that. Her contention was that she didn't kill Heather Gares. She didn't. She didn't kill Heather Gares. She

She was at a liquor store at the time of the murder and then was on her way home from the liquor store when she was stopped by her husband and the police. She told the jury that she was home with the kids. She had picked them up from school, picked up some groceries, picked up some food. They had dinner. But she wasn't feeling well. She had a horrible headache because apparently she had hit her head on the pantry. the night before.

So she wanted to relax and thought, okay, I'm going to take a bath. So she asked her oldest son to watch the kids so that mommy can have some alone time. But here's where things start to get really strange. Shauna testified on the stand that she was taking some new diet pills and that in the bathroom, she had an accident. And by accident, she shit herself, Gibbs. Oh, whoa, hey. Yeah.

That's a problem. Well, now, normally that's not a laughing matter, right? But that's going to happen to people from time to time. It's not something to laugh at. But in the context of her telling this on the stand as part of her alibi, it is somewhat amusing. It is. It's kind of hard not to chuckle at it a little bit. I want to play some testimony so that we can hear from.

Sean. And I still remember that one time you shard it. That was. Yeah, that's always funny. I mean, CrimeCon, you shard it. You're like, I got to go to my room. Why? Why are you leaving us, man? You're like, I shard it. That never happened. I went in to the bathroom. And why were you in the bathroom? I was taking these diet pills. And I had just taken it when we had gotten home. And it takes a little bit to kind of kick in. But it does kind of give you diarrhea, and I had an accident. So I was undressing and dealing with that for a while. Well, after being in the bathroom for a period, did you decide to do something else? I started running my bathwater, and then I decided that I wanted to get a bottle of wine. All I had at home at the time was, I think I had like a whole case of corona.

but a bottle of wine sounded good laying in bathtub. At that point, how were you dressed? At that point, I didn't have any pants on. I had had an accident, so I didn't have any pants or a shirt on at that time. Okay. What did you do? I just went and got some dirty clothes out of the hamper. I didn't want to put anything else clean on

because then I just would have to put it in the hamper too. so I just grabbed whatever I could find in the hamper that was already dirty. Did you dress in the clothes that have been admitted into evidence during this trial? Yes. Did you put on shoes? I initially intended to put on shoes. The shoes that I thought I was going to be putting on were the shoes that I had worn that day. I can't remember what it was.

But during that season, with all of the mud in and out, We left, we took our shoes off immediately after coming in to the garage. So, and I call it the mudroom, and all our shoes usually are stacked up there. So what did you do? I went out. I already had my cell phone. I grabbed my key and went to get the shoes and realized that I had actually, in turn, put the shoes in our closet. So there weren't any shoes over there.

me to put on. Why didn't you go and get the shoes? Because I had already locked to the bedroom door and I was just trying to hurry. What did you do then? I left. And how did you leave? I went out to garage. I opened the garage door and I got in the truck and closed the garage door.

So obviously, Gibbs, this is Shauna's defense attorney. Sure. Trying to let her explain her actions that night. He had kind of a real monotone way of asking questions that I thought was kind of strange. But I think a few things were key for her to try to explain. Number one, why did she decide to go to the liquor store that night? Okay. She explains it by saying she wanted a bottle of wine for her bath time.

Gotcha. A lot of people like to dive into a nice bath. Why they dive into a bottle at the same time? sip for a sip. I get it. Number two, why did you go out with no shoes on? Well, you heard that explanation. It was a strange one, but definitely strange. Okay. But could happen, I guess. Yeah. Number three, why were you wearing your husband's clothes and especially, you know, his underwear? And I think this is where the explosive diarrhea narrative comes into play. Yeah. I had an accident. Okay. No shame in that. Gibbs. I know you've been there many times before. Right here in this studio when you made me eat those

sugar-free gummies. I wish it hadn't happened. Yeah, well. But then you're going to explain it by saying, okay, I've just shit myself. I'm a mess. But I thought, you know what? I really need a bottle of wine. I've already run my bathwater. Yeah. Which makes no sense on a number of levels. First off, why are you not jumping in that bath water to clean yourself up? Well, you'll be getting in a shower, not be getting in bathwater, right? Or whichever way you want to do it. Secondly, how's that bath still going to be hot after you've made your run to the liquor store? Yeah, I don't get that because most of the people I've ever known that like to take bass,

like to take them at temperatures. You want it hot. Yeah, they want it like, you're dropping a lobster in or something. I don't want it that hot, but, you know, if I ever. took one, but women tend to like it where it's scolding. But none of that is explained. No. What is explained and that I still am shaking my head at is that she didn't want to put on

anything clean because it would just get dirty. Are you telling me that you're going to drive to the liquor store with mudbutt? That's what you're telling me. I think that's what she's saying. Who in the hell does that? Well, clearly she does, but I don't. know who else would want to do that. If you don't have to do that, why would you do that? She's like, nah, I'm just going to grab a pair of my husband's dirty drawers. And that'll be good

enough because I'll wash it later. Yeah. If I, you know, those are going to get messed up. They're already messed up. It's just laughable to me. Number one, who lives like that. And, and number two, who thinks like that? Nobody that I know. I think anybody normal would go ahead and get cleaned up first. Then maybe go get a bottle of wine and come back. Okay, now I'm going to take my bath the way I want to take it. Right. It's just, there's so many holes in there. I don't even know if holes are the right word. It just doesn't make any sense. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like she tried her best to make it reasonable account of what happened, but there's no way. You got to try to make sense of it somehow. Right. It's just really hard to make sense of things that don't make any sense. I mean,

you can make up a story, but even the story's not going to make a whole lot of sense. You shit yourself and you tell me if you're going to go put on somebody else's clothes real quick and run out and get some wine and come back. You're not. So here's the other thing. Her idea was that she wanted to put on some clothes that were already dirty. Yeah. She doesn't even put on her own underwear that's dirty.

She gets her husband's underwear. Yeah. She bypasses her dirty stuff from the day before. Right. Let's be, oh, here's some stuff I can. put on. Makes no sense. No, it does not. Shana also testified that she wasn't mad at Heather Gares. On the contrary, she had urged Ignacio to get back together with Heather after Heather had found out about the affair. According to Shauna, I just wanted to be there as a friend. We, you know, we had talked about both divorcing our spouses, but in the end, we both decided we didn't want to leave the

lives we had. That's what she tried to tell the jury. A forensics expert testified that tire tracks found in an alley near the credit union could have come from only one vehicle. And that was the truck that Shauna Nelson was driving that night. It was her husband Ken's truck. I mean, that's the other thing. There were multiple vehicles at the house. She specifically chose to drive Ken's truck. What? The same reason why she put on his underwear. Yeah. The same reason why she wore his shoes. Yep.

Some reason she dropped the shells, you know? His, yeah, shells that matched his gun. I think the jury, you know, they can see through all that. But the defense tried to hit the jury with the fact that no blood was found on the clothes Shauna was wearing. No blood was found on the mask that was found in the truck. And the police never did find. the robe or gloves that they say Shauna wore that night.

And all that gunshot residue? Okay. Shauna went shooting. Her husband was a police officer. There was bound to be gunshot residue on a lot of things. That's true. And that is true. And it can transfer.

Now, would it have been at the levels it was that night on her face, on her hand? Probably not. No. I think that's kind of hard to explain. And we talked about it. Police didn't have the murder weapon. They thought it was Kins, you know, 40 caliber Glock, but he testified he had it with him.

Shauna said she didn't have access to any other firearms. The defense said she was on the other side of Greeley at the liquor store at the time that Heather Garris was shot. Gives, I think the other thing that the defense really tried to play up was that Greeley police didn't investigate anyone else who might have had a motive to kill Heather. They only focused in on Shauna Nelson. Well, you can make the argument that there was nobody else. Right.

The one that had a motive to kill Heather Garris. They were focusing where they needed to be focusing. I think they were, I think they went where the clues took them. Now, did they get tunnel vision? Maybe. It's pretty easy to get. But I think if they did get it, it's because so much. much was pointing to the fact that, you know, it was this woman. During some parts of the trial,

the prosecutor stood next to a mannequin that they had dressed in a black robe and a black mask. I thought that was pretty interesting. And I kind of wonder what effect that might have had on the jury. I think it had a reasonable effect on him. Yeah, I think so. I do want to play a quick clip of a little bit of the end of the prosecution's closing. The defendant was a messenger of death to the marriage of Heather and Ignacio Garris. And she was the messenger of death because she felt she had no other option.

Heather Garris was executed because she was too faithful. She took the vow till death us do part too seriously. She believed in it. And the evidence shows the defendant believed it too. She believed Heather would be faithful to death, and so she killed her, ladies and gentlemen.

That's what this case is about. Heather Garris being too faithful. When Heather Garris was on her knees looking up into that mask with the Grim Reaper, she knew, ladies and gentlemen, she knew who was behind the mask. She knew it was the defendant. She knew she hadn't ruined anybody's life, but she knew the only person who believed that she had was a defendant. And the defendant said, you ruined my life.

And in the split seconds that Heather Harris had to remain on this earth, she knew that she was going to be murdered by the defendant. And the evidence shows, ladies and gentlemen, that Heather Garris was right. Wow. Yeah, I wanted to play that because I thought there was some pretty powerful stuff in there. You know, the closing is kind of interesting in a lot of trials. It's where both sides really get to hammer home their points.

I thought, and that was just I cobbled bits and pieces that that sounded good. But overall, I thought this guy did a pretty good job in, his entire closing, but those were the most powerful points to me. It took the jury of six men and six women about six hours to find Sean and Nelson guilty of the first degree murder of Heather Gares. And 15 minutes after the verdict was read, the judge sentenced Sean and Nelson to life in prison without the possibility of parole. He said, you carried out this plan with great planning and deliberation.

You deserve to serve every day of the sentence I'm about to impose. And I did read somewhere Gibbs where that was the only choice he had. Like he literally didn't have any other choice. Oh, is that or nothing? That was it. Once the jury found her guilty of first degree murder, the only sentence he could impose was life in prison without the possibility of parole. So that's why he was able to go right to the sentence in favor.

sentence and phase so quickly. Yeah, there was no argument about, right. This is what you will get. The penalty phase at all. Because that was strange, right? Mm-hmm. To have your sentence read 15 minutes after the, yeah, the verdict. Yeah, it's not what we're accustomed.

No, we're not used to that because normally there's a penalty phase where the attorneys argue, nope, you should get life, you should get death, you should get parole, you should not get parole. For her role, Michelle Moore pleaded guilty. to a lesser charge of accessory to the crime of attempted first-degree murder. In April of 2008, a judge sentenced her to nine years in prison, saying she knew exactly what was going to happen, and she could have stopped it, but she did.

So she's out, most likely by now, right? She probably served her time. Unless she did something bad in prison, which I doubt. Unless she killed somebody with a shank, yeah, shanked somebody with a shiv. or shived and shanked at the same time, which can actually happen. Shived with one hand and shanked with the other? Yeah.

Yeah. Most likely she's out by now. Just don't get shaw shanked. But she definitely deserved, in my opinion, to go to jail. You can make an argument about the length of time and what it should have been. Nine years is no joke. Now, did she do the whole nine years? I don't know.

I didn't find any information. Right. But she didn't kill anyone. but she definitely could have stopped it. Yeah. At probably a bunch of different points in time, she could have gone to police and said, hey, this is about ready to go down. You need to do something.

You need to do something. But she chose not to. And then you have Shauna's husband, Kent. The evidence tampering charges against him. They were later dropped. Basically, prosecutors said that they just didn't think they could prove their case. And I think a lot of it had to do. with the fact that, you know, over time, they began to think or pretty much believe that,

you know, those shell casings found at the scene, they were planted. Yeah. So he didn't technically tamper with the murder weapon at all because that wasn't the murder weapon. That's a good point. Very good point. I think that's why they thought they were going to have a hard time convicting him on that charge. You know, Ignacio went on with his life.

But he's, to me, kind of a strange player in all this. I know he was at the trial and I'm pretty sure he testified. I just didn't really talk about him a whole lot because, you know, what he testified to was things that we already talked about. The affair when it ended, the text messages and all of that stuff. I don't think he really had any bombshells that he dropped at the trial that were worth talking about. No. And he didn't kill his wife. But you can make the argument that he started a chain of events that led to her death.

I just, it's, it's, you know, how much blame can you put on that guy? Was he a cheater? Yes. Did he have any idea that it was going to get his wife killed? That's a pretty tough leap to make. Probably it depends on how you, what your relationship is with him or. the victim, right? If you're the family member of the victim, you're probably like, it's all because of you, buddy. Well, you could. You started it. If you didn't do what you did, she'd be alive today.

You're just as guilty. And I think a family member could definitely make that argument. And it's kind of hard to say that they're wrong in their thinking. He didn't make anybody pull trigger. No. So he's not. And he didn't pull it trigger. And he didn't pull the strings to make it happen. Right. And that's why I say he's kind of a strange play. in this whole thing because he's a central figure. Sure. He has to live with his actions. Oh, he does.

Yeah, he does. But that's it, Gibbs. That's the case of Sean and Nelson. Again, I'll end it kind of the way we started it. You know, you got to be careful with these love triangles. You do, man. I mean, first of all, no one should be cheating on their spouse. But if you are, you better be careful.

Really careful. Because you just never know when it's going to go fatal attraction and somebody's going to end up dead and Just stay away from the married ones, man. I think that's the key. Yeah. We've got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Let's hear.

Hi, Mike. Hi, Gibby. This is Jacob, calling from Idaho. Just wanted to thank you guys for all your episodes and content. Keep the day going by at work. It's wonderful. Just made my first donation. I'm going to try to do it more.

often figure I owe you guys, you know, for everything. I know you don't care about the money from too much, but, you know, we got to keep you guys here. I'm going to try to send you some of that jerky I make also. I want to make the next batch. But thank you very much. Definitely team for to be here, the only team to be on. And keep your own time ticking. Thank you.

Well, we appreciate it very much. Yeah, we do. All of it. We really do. The listening, the donation, the jerky. It's all good. That was at Utah fry sauce going. He's from Idaho.

I know. He's got the potatoes. He's got to go to the next date over to get the fry sauce. That's not wrong with that picture. That's what's, you know, we talk about all time, but there's fry sauce everywhere. Yeah. It just so happens that you latched on to the Utah fry sauce. And there is some debate.

You even said it. Sure. About where it technically really comes from. Really comes from. But you and I can go down the street and get some really good fry sauce. Absolutely. It's really good. And I'm actually feeling like I want some fry sauce now.

I wish you talked about it. Road trip. Yeah. And I can give me. My name's Christina and I'm from California, the Bay Area, to be specific, not L.A. I've called before when I was in cosmetology school and I wanted to call again to one update that I graduated and to say thank you for putting out content to during like this really part time. I work in a grocery store right now. and it's been like really stressful and I really appreciated you guys would shout out to essential workers in the beginning of your last podcast and also I finally, which I've been meaning to do, subscribe to your Patreon.

So I'm really excited to see all the content that's on there. And it's really weird putting you guys this faces to your voices. I don't know why, but I have never seen you guys' faces before. And I only have listened to the podcast. And when I see you guys' face, I'm like, oh, that's what they look like. And I really appreciate your podcast. and they've been healthy and keep your own time ticking. Oh, that's what they look like.

We got that a lot. We get that a lot. Especially when we go to CrimeCon and people come up, they're like, oh. You take it bad. I don't always take it bad. I take it as though, and it could be a radio person that you listen to. Right. If you have this picture in your head of what a person looks like based on the way they sound.

Most people don't look anything like the picture that's in your head. head and I guarantee you we don't either. No. And sometimes it doesn't mean we're trolls. It just means we don't look like the picture in your head. A lot of times I think you or me and I am you based on our voice. And when they walk up, they're like, oh, you're Fergie. I'm like, no.

That's Fergie. I'm Gibby. And they're like, oh, I thought your voices will match differently. Yeah. What can you do? But hey, she won. Congratulations on finishing your schooling. And get here.

I need a haircut. I was getting ready to say, if you could fly out here and cut Gibby's hair, that would be helpful. Yeah. Because these weekly Patreon videos, I mean, pretty soon, you're going to have to go bowler cap or something. It's going to get out of control. Oh, yeah.

I mean, there's only so much gel you can put in one's hair. I know. I mean, you got Al Pacino right now slick back going. Exactly. But we appreciate it, definitely. Hi, this is Erica from Kansas City. I listened to the podcast about Robert Bredella today at work, and I thought it was coincidental that I live in Kansas City, and my boyfriend also worked at the landfill that was around when Robert Bredella was chopping up bodies and putting them in the trash. When I told my boyfriend about it, he kind of laughed and said that, yeah, we do have bodies in our trash.

I just discovered your podcast, and so far I'm loving it, and it keeps me going through the day. Just keep going and I'll keep listening. All right. Appreciate the voicemail. Gibbs, I just assume that every landfill has a body or two. Well, I mean, Kansas City mob, come on, man. You know there's something in that trash landfill out there. I just meant all of them.

Well, yeah. And there's so many murders. Yeah. People dispose of bodies. I'm assuming that there's a lot of bodies in landfills. It's kind of sad to think of it like that. I think it probably is. Hi, Mike and Gibby. This is Olivia from Boston, Massachusetts. I absolutely love your podcast. I stumbled upon it one day because I was listening to other true crime podcasts and I had finished all those episodes. So I switched over to yours and I actually love the podcast. But what I love more is the Seinfeld references and just all the banter that you guys have because it's just so amazing.

I love how giving never knows what actresses were in movies. And I love just that, like, you kind of set him up to stumble and give us all this hilarious content. So I just wanted to say, keep up the good work in this quarantine, you know, keep pumping out these episodes because this is what's getting me through. And I just wanted to say, keep your own time chicken. Thanks, bye. I like those apples. Well, we are doing our best. And so far so good, Gibbs, we haven't missed an episode.

And as long as things keep going the way they have been, we'll continue to put out content. We really will. So. There's no mail bag. No mail bag. Because COVID? COVID-19. Probably.

All right. So that's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.