True Crime All The Time - Stanley Tookie Williams

Episode Date: April 20, 2020

Tookie Williams was a co-founder of the infamous Crips gang in the 1970s in Southern California. Raised by a single mother, Tookie learned how to be tough in order to survive on the streets. He lived the gang life for a number of years and got heavily involved with drugs. In 1979, Tookie was arrested and ultimately convicted of murdering four people. He was sentenced to death.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the life and crimes of Tookie Williams. This is a man who undoubtedly committed a laundry list of crimes during his life. But, the four murders for which he received the death penalty didn't seem to be gang related. Tookie is also an interesting study in that he seemingly turned his life around in prison. He began writing children's books denouncing the gang lifestyle on which he had been such a big influence. The question many people have is whether or not this turnaround was real or whether it was a ploy to try to escape the death penalty.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise and donation informationAn Emash Digital ProductionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

and welcomed episode 179 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you? I'm good, man. About you? I'm doing great. Yeah. We had a little din din just a little bit ago.

Yeah, we did. That my youngest daughter made, she's a world-class chef. She really is. She does a really good job. She does, man. Everything she makes turns out very well. And it was very healthy in a way. Yeah.

Had a lot of color in it. The broccoli and the peppers. Yeah, we had some hamburgers with no buns. Yeah. Trying to keep the carbs off a little. That or you couldn't find any at the store. I don't know. Yeah, you never know nowadays what you can get and what you can.

I think a lot of it's coming back. But I know people are still struggling all over the world, Gibbs. But, you know, I think we're starting to see some good signs. I think so. And that's encouraging, you know. Now, what will the new normal be? I don't think anybody knows for sure. No, I don't.

I know that people for a while be concerned. You know, I know they're saying that this could be a two-phase kind of a thing that will come back on the fall again. Might come back, yeah. And nobody knows how long it'll take to really get a vaccine or if some of these other drugs are experimenting with will work. But, you know, I'm trying to stay optimistic. Yeah.

And sometimes that's hard, but it's important. I mean, I think in the end, I think it's went really surprisingly well the way that everybody's handled themselves through all this. I would say so. I mean, if you think about no looting, no massive rioting or things we've seen with other types of events. Yeah. I think people, for the most part, have hunkered down and tried to protect themselves and acted for the most part in the way that they should. I'm ready to get back to some type of normal. Well, I think everybody is.

There's no doubt about it. Now, we have had some amazing Patreon support. Yeah. People have stepped up to help us through these times, which we very much appreciate. You're the best. We had Andrea Papa George. Hey, Papa George. Patricia Rios.

Hey, what's going on, Patricia? Christina Harmeyer. Hey, Christina. Angela Christie. Hey, what's going on, Christa? Jensen. What's him? Jensen.

Kristen Adams Hey Kristen Diane Wilkerson What's going on Wilkerson Liz Callahan Hey Callahan Motors Cassandra Paisley

jumped out of our highest level What's going on Cassandra Kara Stevenson Hey Kara Ebony Hemacheck Oh Hemachek Tiffany DeFratis Amanda Rose

Hey Amanda Dina Shoup What's going on Dina Glyford Hydel jumped out of our highest level Hey hey hey Hidel Emily Moka

Moka like Mokalata Laura G. Hey Laura. Olivia Ramandi. Hey, Ramandi. Jess Bernson. What's going on, Jess? Tim Philbin.

Hey, thanks, Tim. Mary Ellen Milam. Hey, Myelm. And Sue Ann Seagrist jumped out to our highest level. What's going on, Seagrist? So we appreciate all that new support. And then if we go back into the Volk Gibbs,

this week we selected Elizabeth Wolffinger. I like that, man. Wolfinger. Remember when she first joined she was Wolf Paul. Now she's down to just Wolffinger. Is that what it was? Change your name in the time that she's been with us. I know.

So we appreciate the new support, the long time support. We had some PayPal donations as well. Donna Weaver. Hey, Donna. Jillian Yeager. Hey, Yeager. Luis Martin. What's going on, Louise?

And Sue Raglan. Hey, Sue. So thanks to all of you as well. Awesome. Gives right now, we haven't new episode of true crime all the time unsolved. We're talking about the infamous Bricka murders. Yeah. Down just south of us towards Cincinnati way.

Horrific murder, 1966. Just devastating, man. But it's an interesting case. You know, you have the triple homicide, but when you start going down the path of who did it, why they did it, gets interesting. Yeah, there's some famous names that come into play. There is. Kind of tenuous possible suspects. Yeah.

But all of that does make it very interesting. So make sure you check that out. All right, Gibbs, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? Let's do it. We are headed to California. I love California, man. I know you do. Yeah.

You're always California dreaming. I am. But we're headed there to talk about convicted murderer Stanley Tuki Williams. So get used to that. I'm going to be saying Tuki quite a bit. What's up, Tuki? But Tuki is interesting in the fact that he was one of the co-fifference. founders of the infamous Crips game.

So this was a ruthless guy who killed a number of people on his own. No doubt about that. And we're going to get into his murders. But then you have the ramifications of being a founding member of this gang that has caused so much death and destruction in L.A., Southern California. And really, you know, across the country, this gang. spread to pretty much most of the states in the U.S. and even abroad. Yeah, it became really huge, man.

Yeah, it did. And we'll talk about it, right? He had to live with that knowing that, okay, he set out for it to be one thing, according to him, it turned into something else and he had to live with that knowledge. But Stanley Williams III was born in Shreveport, Louisiana, 1953. his mother was 17 years old when she gave birth to Stanley. His father split within a year of his birth. So you have a son obviously named after you because he's Stanley Williams III.

Right. And you're going to be like, yeah, I'm out of here in less than a year. Well, happens a lot. It does. It happens way too often. It's a tough situation. When you have a teenage mother on her own, she decided to pack. to pack up and move to South Central Los Angeles in 1959 in search of a better life for herself

and for Stanley. And it's here that Stanley grew up and learned what life on the street was really like. It gives there was a lot of crime and violence in his neighborhood. And you had his mother working multiple jobs to support him. So he was on his own most of the time. He saw a lot. a very young age. There was dog fighting in the neighborhood. There was a ton of street fighting. I'm sure he saw a number of homicides as well. Somewhere along the line, people started calling him Tuki. And I never really could figure out where the name came from. I'm sure there's a story behind it. I just couldn't, I couldn't find it. But don't let that name fool you. This was not a guy to mess with. He earned a fearsome reputation over the years as a tough street fighter.

And Gibbs, I think he learned very early on that there was only two ways that his life was going to go. Either he could be weak and get preyed upon or he could get strong. And then he could be the predator. He was seeing this all around, right? Bullies. He was bullied himself at times. And I think he bullied other.

kids as well, the ones that he could. At some point, he decided he was going to be the strong one. He built up his body over the years until he really was like this massive Hulk-like figure. I mean, people need to go out and look at some pictures of this guy to really understand what I'm talking about. He was a very imposing dude. And obviously, we'll post pictures on our social media accounts. Yeah, he was done being bullied.

Yeah, I think he made the decision. He had seen what was going on. And he knew what end of the spectrum he wanted to be on. He didn't want to be the one being preyed upon. He was going to be the predator, no doubt. This guy got to be something like 300 pounds of pure muscle. Man. It said that he had 22 inch biceps.

A lot of protein shakes. And this is all while he was still in his teens. Yeah. I mean, he's not a 35-year-old man or a 30-year-old man. He's 14, 15 years old. It's eating a lot of eggs. Like Rocky? Yeah.

Just drinking him right from the glass. This guy looked like a black Arnold Schwarzenegger. He really did. Which is kind of ironic because later on down the line, Arnold would be the one deciding whether Stanley lived or died. Really? Yeah. And we'll get into that.

Because obviously, at some point, we know Arnold was the governor. of California. Yeah. So that's an interesting twist. It is. In 1971, Tuki was 16 years old, still in high school, but was already feared in South Central Los Angeles as one of the leaders of a gang. And this is when he met a guy named Raymond Washington.

And together, they formed a new gang called the Crips. And basically, the Crips were formed because these two. guys were leading separate gangs, and they felt like they needed to unite in order to combat the rising number of different gangs popping up all around the area. And according to Tuky's later writings, he and Washington saw how these other gangs were terrorizing their own community and they united to ward them off. Take back their block. And to keep these gangs from terrorizing the people that lived in their community. Well, yeah, especially if you're going to charge them some protection rate, you know?

That's what I always did. You want to live in this neighborhood? You've got to pay the rate. But don't give yourself away. Oh, okay. Now myself, growing up in a small town in Ohio, I didn't really know a lot about the Crips, you know, mainly what I saw on TVs or movies growing up. You were just tying bandanas around your leg and wherever else just because you thought was

fashionable. And that was cool. I did know that they wore blue. Yeah. And that their main rivals were the bloods later on. They wore red. I did know that. You could get that from watching movies, you know, colors and watch a music video.

Or rap video or something like that. And I did go through a rap phase in the late 1980s. I listened to them all, man, NWA, EZE, Too Short, Ice Tea, Eric B and Raq Kim. Those were my jams. Yeah. Were they? For about two or three years. Yeah, I had a rap phase.

And then when no one was looking, you had what, like Tiffany on and? Tiffany at the mall. Debbie Gibson. I know. I actually went to the mall to see Tiffany. You probably did. No, I didn't. But no, that's what I listened to mostly in high school.

Yeah. Because that's what my friends were listening to. We thought we were cool. We thought we were edgy. And these guys were definitely edgy. I mean, if you listen. to the lyrics, they talk about killing cops and doing all kinds of things that, you know, are pushing the envelope. I know you were a rapper in the late 80s under your stage name.

I was. It didn't go well. It didn't. It didn't last long, but you gave it a shot. I tried to do a wrap off against Method Man. It didn't. Is a wrap off? Is that like a rap battle? It was. Okay. I just called a wrap off back then. Yeah. They changed the name since Yeah, they have. Did not go well. Yeah. I was off the stage, then went to the restroom, threw up. I tried to come back.

Yeah, spaghetti on your shirt. I did. Mom spaghetti. Yeah. I tried, man, but I couldn't make it back. But I will be honest, I didn't know anything about the origin of the gangs until I started researching this story on Tuki Williams. So apparently the original name for the gang was the Cribs.

Really? Yep, which I found interesting. And there are a couple of different versions that I found of how the name morphed into the Crips. One comes from some of the members carrying canes around, like, you know, old school canes that I guess like maybe some of the pimps would use. Oh, okay. They would do that. And so people said, okay, obviously we know these guys don't have a disability, but we're going to start calling them the Crips because they're, carrying around canes.

And the other theory was that it was short for cripplers, that these guys were so vicious. They were making people crippled. Yep. So brutal that they crippled people with their beatings and all that. So I don't know which one is more true. Maybe there's parts of both of them that are true. I think they'd want the second one to be known. Well, it came about.

I'm sure the gang did that a lot. I'm sure they hurt a lot of people and disabled quite. a few of them. No matter how it changed, though, the name stuck. And ultimately, the gang became, you know, one of the most notorious street gangs in the U.S. But let's get back to Tuki. So he's one of the leaders in this gang. And he's still in high school, right? This kid's like 16, 17 years old. But honestly, Gibbs, how many classes are you attending when you're the leader of a gang? Probably about as many as you did. And that's not saying a whole lot. Probably not.

Yeah. Well, no, no, man. He's probably not. Didn't mean me. Oh, that timing was perfect. It was. All right. Or leave that there.

But eventually, Tuki was kicked out of high school. And he was in and out of Juvie all the time. He's just a kid that was getting into trouble because he's running around with a gang. Called Juvie recruitment at time. That's what you call that. And he probably did. Yeah. But I don't think it mattered to him a whole lot.

I don't think he was planning on going to Stanford or MIT or trying to get a degree in astrophysics or anything like that. I think he knew what he was going to do. You know, if you already know what you're going to do, go for your dream and hold on, man. No matter how bad it is for society. No, I think he thought, hey, I've got an empire to run. I've got a gang to build out and that's what I'm going to do. I got people to terrorize, man.

I can't waste my time in school and later on in college or anything like that. Too cool for school. I can't be working at McDonald's and running a gang that's terrorizing people all over the city. Guarantee that was never going to happen. No, he's not going to be working at McDonald's. But I do think what's important to remember is that, okay, this kid had no father figure in his life. His dad split when he was a baby. He had a mother who, I'm sure, loved.

loved him, but was working so many jobs to make ends meet that she couldn't keep an eye on him. He was, he was essentially a latchkey kid. Now, a lot of us were. Yeah. A lot of us were because, you know, when you get into the 70s, 80s, 90s, that's when you really started to get into both parents having to work, you know, it wasn't leave it to Beaver time where every mom was going to be home. waiting on their child when they got off the school bus.

Yeah, I mean, if you're a single parent, working during the day, nights, sometimes two jobs, you can't be there, like you just said. And that's the majority of what made up these gangs were a lot of kids that came from single parent families. They have no supervision because nobody was home to supervise them, right? And it wasn't in the day where everybody had cell phones, you know, left and right either. So you couldn't, like, call and check up on them. You left.

Hope they went to school. hope they came back from school and did their studies. And if you're working second shift, you hope they're standing out of trouble. Yeah, but you just don't know because you can't be there because you've got to work to make the money. You need to pay the rent. So I think he was pretty much left to his own devices. And what he chose to do was build up his gang, right? That's what he did.

The Crips flourished. They grew in the 1970s. At one point Gibbs, they outnumbered all other gangs, three to one in the Los Angeles area. That's pretty big. Yeah, it's huge, man. They also began to spread outside of LA throughout California. But as Tuki would later state in his writings, the gang ended up becoming exactly what it was

formed to prevent. He's quoted as saying, the Crips became gangbangers who terrorized their own neighborhoods and preyed upon their own people. So in theory, he had this great vision of protecting the neighborhood, protecting his own people. Community. Yeah, the people in his community. Yeah. But because it grew so fast, grew so big, you can't have control over that.

And before you know it, your thoughts and now should be ran and how other people decide to run it, you know, turns the other way. Well, and that's if you believe that's why they formed it. Right. You know, you have to take that leap and believe what people have said that it was formed to be a kind of a protector of the neighborhood. But to do that, you have to make money somehow. Well, you're going to make money and say, you need to pay me to protect you or these other people are going to come in. Yeah, well, you're going to pay me. Now I'm going to terrorize you.

So you will want to pay me. Right. I think they were doing illegal stuff from the very beginning. But I think they, at least in theory, from what he said, they weren't doing it to their own community. Yeah. It might have been going outside into other areas or whatever. Sure.

But like I said, you know, later on, they would expand into the majority of the states in the U.S. and into other countries as well. They became huge. Now, the Los Angeles Times reported that Tuki led a double life for many years in the 70s. Apparently, he worked as a counselor in some boys' home and, you know, was telling them, him, hey, stay away from the gang life, stay out of trouble, while at the very same time running the biggest gang in Los Angeles. Yeah.

Well, and you normally have to keep it big. You have to recruit. So I find that strange that he was playing that. Don't get into the gangs. Don't do that. But to stay competitive with the gang across the street and the other neighborhood you want to keep out, you got to make sure you have enough members. So obviously he was telling some other people.

people, hey, we need you. Yeah. But whoever was in this boy's home, apparently he was saying, hey, gangs are bad, stay out. Stay out of it. Don't do it. I think the problem back then, too, was that you could go work at McDonald's, $12 an hour, probably wouldn't that, eight bucks an hour maybe back then. Are you thinking that McDonald's was paying $12 an hour in 1970 something?

Okay, $4 an hour? I still think you're way off. Yeah. Well, it seems like when I was in, after I graduated from high school, minimum wage was like $4.75 or something. I made my own hours, man. Okay. This is what you're going to pay.

I think your B-boo, B-boo, B-boo calculator is way off here. I'm going to call BS. I made some good Big Macs back in the day. Yeah, you must have been doing something else on the side to make $12 an hour in the 1970. Special big Macs. But why would you work at that place if you'd be on the street making, you know, hundreds of dollars. Oh, yeah. There would be no reason to do it. I'm just not sure why he was working as this counselor unless maybe it was a smokescreen, right? Could have been. This is my job. I'm doing good

for the community. Now, when I'm not here, I'm running this huge gang and we're doing a bunch of illegal stuff. Sometimes people do things like that to make them feel better. They know what they're doing normally is not healthy, not good. So they're, do something like that with a charity project or something to make them, you know, this makes me feel a little bit better. I know I'm doing these terrible things over here, but on the flip side over here, I'm trying to save some kids, man. Yeah, I don't get that, I'm not that bad of a guy.

But plus I don't think it was charity. I think it was a job. I think he was getting paid. Yeah. I think probably it was more of a smoke screen to keep people. people from thinking that he was this big gangster. But you could be right. It could be a little bit of both too.

You know, during the 70s, many leaders of the gang, they started to die under mysterious circumstances. They were murdered. Many of them found themselves in prison. In 1974, co-founder Raymond Washington was sent to prison for five years on a robbery charge. And really, it was after 1974. that Tuki was basically leading this huge gang on his own.

And kind of like, you know, what you hinted at Gibbs, he couldn't control it. It was getting too big, too fast. They didn't have the structure, the hierarchy. And even if they did, right, these splinter cells were popping up. Sure. Okay, they were still the Crips, but they were the, this section Crips. And were they going to listen to exactly what this one guy at the top? said, no, most likely not.

They were the whatever gang before they became the tied into the Crips. They just changed it from being, you know, the E-76 Street gang. Now they're the Crips over on the E-76 Street, whatever, right? Because they needed the power of the Crips behind them. But they're probably doing the same thing they always did. I'm sure there was a lot of that. You know, like, let's stop everything we've ever done. Let's do this new format way that the Crips.

trips does it. And I think the other thing that happened during the 70s was the gun violence began to escalate very rapidly. And, you know, when this was started, according to Tuki, this was not a shoot them up type gang. Yeah, they would beat the shit out of people. Right. They might threaten them with a switchblade or whatever. There wasn't a lot of guns involved. They weren't doing drive-by shootings and things like that. But that started to explode. Right. They were. more guns on the street, more gun violence. You had these splinter cells breaking off. And by the time Raymond Washington got out of prison in 1976, he didn't even recognize

what had been the Crips when he went into prison like two years earlier. Oh, I bet because you went from, like you said, if you had to defend your turf, your community, you know, you went into these battles, man, fist, clubs. knife, stuff like that, the old way, the good way. If you want to take me out, you're going to have to do physically, not just come up and shoot me with a bullet. And then all that changed because of the drug business and all that kind of stuff. And man, now you can just like drive by with a little oozy and drop six, seven people right away. Did you kill a guy with a Trident? That's kind of cool. That was a great movie, man. That reminds me of, you know, Anchorman. I mean, I don't know if it was

West Side Story where they walked in, you know, snapping their fingers, but. I don't see that happen. It wasn't the Mac 10, Uzi, Sprang Bullets type of deal. I don't think early on. That's why when you went into these gangs, a lot of times you have to get jumped in, right? Mm-hmm. Because they wanted to make sure you can handle yourself. Handle yourself if you're getting attacked by a few people that you can stand your ground.

And then later on, not that you and I are gang authorities, but later on, didn't it become in a lot of gangs, okay, like with the mafia, now you have to kill someone to get into the gang. So now it goes from being able to take a beating to prove to us that you can actually kill someone, I think in a lot of instances. I think you're right. I think those type of gangs got it from seeing how the mafia worked because that's how the mafia always was.

They wanted to know that they could trust you that you could actually do a severe crime like that. Well, and let's be honest, as bad as the mafia was for a very long time, they were extremely successful at what they did because they did it a very certain way. They kept it very much in order. So Washington gets out. He doesn't recognize the gang that he helped start. And he started to distance himself from the cribs.

He was later killed in a drive-by shooting in 1979. But in 1976, Tuky was wounded in a drive-by shooting. That same year, his maternal grandmother. died and really gives, I think after these two incidents, he really got heavy into drugs, including PCP, which is not good. And he was fired from his counseling job in 1977 after he was apparently seen running down a street, half naked and screaming. Wow.

Reminds me very much of Will Ferrell or you in old school or me. Yeah. What the hell are you doing? We're streaking. We're going up through the quad to the gymnasium. Who's streaking? There's more coming. Frank, get in the car.

Everybody's doing it. Now. Okay. Do you think KFC is still open? Makes me want to go watch that tonight. That is a great movie. But, I mean, imagine this guy high on PCP. like I said, 300 plus pounds, all muscle, 22 inch biceps, running down the street naked,

high as a guy. Man, scary look. Not a guy that you want to meet in a dark alley for sure. Clothes or no clothes. Yeah, clothes or no clothes, especially with no clothes. So, Tuki was a mess. You know, high on PCP a lot of the time. He was about ready to go on a killing spree.

And the details of his murders are taken mostly. from his court appeal documents. It was on February 28th, 1979. He was with some other men at a residence. They were all smoking PCP. They were talking about how they could make some easy money. So they formed a plan. And the plan was to rob a convenience store. So they drove to a convenience store in Pomona. Two of the men walked into the store to rob it. But instead, one of the men bought into the store to rob it. But instead, one of the men bummed a cigarette off the clerk who was working in the store that night. They chatted for a little bit and then they both walked out. They didn't rob the place.

When they got back into the car, Tuki was furious. I mean, he was just livid that they had not gone through with the plan. So he told them to drive to another convenience store and he was going to show him how it was done. This time, don't go in and talk to anybody. Don't be sharing a cigarette with them. This is how we're going to do it. So they pulled up to a 7-Eleven on Whittier Boulevard. They walked in.

Inside the store working that night was 26-year-old Albert Lewis Owens. Tuki had with him a shotgun. And he held that on Owens as the other men took the money from the cash register. Okay, they got their money. They could have walked out. But Tuckie didn't do that. He ordered the clerk into the storage room. had him get face down on the floor.

Then he pointed the shotgun at Owens and fired two shots into his back, killing him. The group left the store with about $120 in cash, $120.20. They didn't value that guy's life at all, man. No. Now, I don't think they valued anybody's life, to be honest with you. You know, Tuki told the others he had killed Owens because he didn't want to leave any witnesses. Now, he also reportedly told other people that he, He killed him because he was white and Tuki was all about killing white people.

That's what he said to some folks. He later joked about the murder to at least one person, including his brother, saying, you should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him. And then Gibbs, he made some gurgling noises. And he laughed about what he had done to this poor young man. Yeah. I think that shows you his mentality. Sure.

In his regard for human life, he just didn't have any. Less than two weeks later on March 11th, 1979, Williams killed again. He took his shotgun into the family run Brookhaven Motel around 5 a.m. When he got inside, he broke down the door that led to some private living quarters. So the family that owned it, they were. Taiwanese immigrants. And they lived at the motel, but they had their own separate living quarters cordoned off from, you know, the rest of the guests, probably behind the office or something like that. He made contact with three members of the family. And he shot and killed all three of them.

He shot the father, 76 year old, Yenai Yang in the chest and in the arm while he was laying on a sofa. Then he shot the mother, 63-year-old Tai Shai Yang, once in the stomach and once in the back. Then he turned his attention to the couple's daughter, 43-year-old Yi-chin-Lin. He killed her with one shot directly to the face. And these were brutal murders. You can actually go out and see what appear to be morgue shots. Yeah. And I'm telling you right now, a shotgun blast. at close range to the face. Not pretty. It is not pretty.

I'm not sure why they have these pictures floating around on the internet, but I saw them while I was researching. I wish I hadn't. But I know people listening. There's a good amount of them that will go look right now. Well, yeah, go look and see. Hope you're not eating. What this man did to this poor family.

You know, Gibbs, they came over from Taiwan wanting a better life. You know they did. They probably worked their ass off to get enough money to buy this motel. They were running it with just the family. And this monster comes in and kills them all for $100. So he got the $100 and fled the scene. But once again, he wasn't shy about bragging to others about what he had done. He described these murders in detail to friends.

I mean, he bragged about this. And he referred to his victims as, quote, Buddha heads. Pretty disrespectful. Now, to murder them is the ultimate disrespect. Sure. But, you know, to call them names after the fact. It was reported that Yang's son was asleep in the motel with his wife. So they probably lived there too in another room, probably helped out at the motel as well.

But he was asleep when he heard the shotgun blast. By the time he got up. And he got to the office and into the living quarters. He found his father, mother and sister all shot. And they were all gasping for air. All three were alive, but died shortly after emergency personnel got on the scene. I think one maybe even made it to the hospital, but died pretty shortly thereafter. And I know you and I have talked about this before, right?

Gunshots, brutal. When you take a shotgun blast at close range, really anywhere, it does such an incredible amount of damage. You know, you take a couple of them, your chance of survival is little to none. It's going to be very hard to recover from that. So, Tuki was arrested. But I really don't know how he was arrested. The details are essentially non-existent on how they caught up with him, even how the arrest went down. I did find one blurb that he made some incriminating statements during a police

interview where he talked about the number of shots fired at the motel. That's not good. No, that statement was later used against him at trial, but it was a very strange conversation. It was almost like at least the part I saw. He was asking a question about something to the effect how many shots were fired at the motel. Five, question mark. Not sure why he would ask that question. Well, it turns out that, yeah, that's exactly how many shots were fired at the motel. Right. So they used that against him later on in court. He never came out and said he did it. Yeah, but it was suspicious, by the way. It's very, very suspicious. And as a matter of fact, he would never claim that, you know, he committed any of these murders. He may not. He may

maintained his innocence until the day he died. I'll just throw that out there right away. But while he was awaiting trial, Tuki hatched a scheme to escape. I'm a big gang leader. Yeah. I have connections. I'm not spending my time in jail. Well, you know, the population of the gang was pretty high.

So I'm sure he was able to influence some people to assist in him getting out. Yeah. Yeah, I think he had a lot of different people that he could. could have probably called on and said, hey, this is what I need you to do. So the plan involved some of his cohorts on the outside, stopping his jail transport bus, right? So somehow they were going to stop this bus. They were going to kill any of the deputies that were guarding the bus.

Then they were going to blow the bus up. Sounds like a bad boys movie. Something, yeah, very similar. Something to that effect. And apparently the blood. blowing up of the bus was meant to confuse the authorities as to who escaped, right? So they wouldn't know it was him right away because the whole bus was blown up, who was left, who was gone.

Okay, buy some time. There were also plans to eliminate any witnesses set to testify against him in court in very mafia like, right? That was always a big mafia strategy. Hey, I don't think you want to testify. Yeah. against so-and-so. We know where your kid goes to school.

We know where your parents live. And here's a fish wrapped up in newspaper just to help get my point across. I wonder if they could ever eat that fish. You know, they got the message. They got it. I understand what you're trying to say. I'm going to cook that for dinner tonight, though. Thank you.

I wouldn't trust it because you know me. I don't trust meat or fish that's been sitting out too long. The FDA guidelines or the USDA guidelines would say, don't eat that. Don't eat that. It's been sitting out too long at room temperature. It probably wasn't smoked, was it? Probably not. But here's where the guy was not real smart.

You know, authorities found detailed notes of the planned crime in his own handwriting. But it doesn't matter. It never happened because one of the individuals he had reached out to to help him carry out the plan turned on him and ratted him out. Which is a good thing because I think a lot of innocent people would have lost their lives. if this had gone down the way that that he wanted it to. Sure. So eventually he did get to trial. It took a couple years.

I think it was 1981. The trial started. A pathologist testified that the shotgun blast that killed Albert Lewis Owens were at very close range. I mean, he basically called them contact wounds. The same was true for the shotgun blast that killed the three at the Brookhaven motel.

And this goes back to what I was. talking about earlier, you know, when it comes to shotgun wounds. You know, if you're going to stick that barrel, like essentially up against somebody, oh my gosh, it's devastating. The force coming out of that. It's all concentrated. I mean, the way as shotgun works, you know, the pellets spread as they travel. Yes, distance, the distance in between the gun and the target. Yeah. The further away you are, the more the pellet spread, the less, you're chance that, you know, you're going to hit somebody with all the pellets or they're going to be spread around. Right. But you stick it up almost to somebody's skin. Wow, that is a lot of force and a

lot of pellets all in one area. I also personally think it tells something to the jury. You know, you took the time to walk up to each one of these individuals, you know, stick that shotgun right on them and pull the trigger. Very deliberate. Sure. Execution. style to me. Yeah, very execution style like. Right. The police had obtained Tuki shotgun and they even had the firearm transfer paperwork to show that he owned it, that he had bought it. And they had shotgun shells from the crime scenes. And a ballistics expert testified that the shells were, without a doubt, fired from that weapon. Pretty compelling. Yeah, I think that was very compelling testimony, the prosecution called someone from the store where Tuky had purchased the shotgun

just to confirm the records. I mean, they went all out to really tie him to this gun. They called a number of witnesses who were either with Tuky when the first murder occurred, had heard him brag about the murders, or who could testify that the gun was indeed his. Now, the defense tried to sway the jury that there just wasn't enough evidence to prove Stanley Williams committed any of these murders. And I think one thing they did Gibbs, and you see this quite often, they hammered on the character of the state's witnesses saying, you know, these people are thugs, they're gang members, they're criminals. And on top of that, they receive some type of leniency for pointing the finger at, our client. Right. Yeah. Which you and I have talked about at great length. Comes back to bite you sometimes. It does. It does. Now, I think it does a lot when you get into the

area of people having no knowledge of the crime. Right. But they're willing to say that they do for the sake of, you know, getting out of prison, staying out of prison or just making sure that they're not there any longer than they have to be. But I don't think that's the case in this scenario. I think these people did know him. I think they did hear these things. The statements made were corroborated by a number of different people. It wasn't like one person who said, yeah, I heard him say this.

Right. There were a number of people that he said it to. Well, he did like to brag. He did. He did. And apparently he either was not afraid or he was not smart. enough to, you know, keep his mouth shut. The defense called Tuki stepfather. They called his girlfriend and also called a couple of inmates that had been in jail with

Tuki to testify. I wouldn't think their testimony carried too much weight. No, especially the inmates. I don't really know what the inmates had to say other than I was in jail with this guy and he said he didn't do it. Yeah. So obviously he couldn't have done it. You should let him go.

And I don't think it was like, you know, his stepdad or his girlfriend could provide a rock solid alibi for him or anything like that. Right. So on March 13th, 1981, the jury found Stanley Williams guilty on all counts, including those that carried special allegations after the verdict was read. I love this, you know, when we research and found this part. This is amazing. Tuki started threatening jurors. And apparently he called them all sons of bitches and he mouthed the words, I'm going to get each and every one of you MFers.

Yeah. Okay. Seems like a strange thing to do to the people who are getting ready to decide your punishment. Yeah. You might want to hold off on that first. Let them put it on what your punishment should be on record. Yeah.

Then you can say all that. Call them all the MFers and sons of bitches you want. I get you're upset, right? after hearing the verdict, you've been found guilty. But I do think maybe you should wait until after the sentencing phase is over. If you want to start trying to intimidate the jury, that's just my thought. Yeah. I wonder if he thought that they already decided all that, just haven't said it yet.

And then he finds out later, like, his attorney's like, hey, they still have to go back and decide how much time you're going to do. And he's probably like, oh, shit, man. Well, you know, or maybe he thought by me threatening them. Yeah. That's going to make them think twice about giving me the death penalty. I think if it was me, you've just solidified it in my mind. Yeah.

That you're a person that not only never needs to get out of prison, we should put you to death. Yeah. At that point. If you're that dumb or that brazen that you're willing to. try to intimidate the jury in the middle of your trial. I'm guessing he probably tried to intimidate them throughout the whole trial. Oh, I'm sure he gave him glances and looks and things like that. But, you know, then to out loud call them sons of bitches.

And I think he mouthed the words, I'm going to kill each and every one of UMFers. But jurors saw it because it became like this thing. The judge found out he had to talk to the jurors and they said, yeah. we could clearly see that he what he said yeah he threatened us but whatever he was trying to do didn't work because they came back and they recommended the death penalty and that's what the judge ultimately ended up giving toki was the death sentence he spent his first 10 years in san quentin as the leader of the crips basically who were inside he probably had a bunch of influence on some of the people outside as well, I would think.

Probably. I would think he probably did. But there were quite a few gang members in St. and Quentin at the time. So he was kind of running San Quentin as far as it came to the crypts. But it was well documented. He displayed violent behavior on a daily basis, either himself directly or by him directing, you know, other people in the gang. They attacked guards. They attacked other inmates. This guy. was not a model prisoner in any sense. It got so bad that they finally had to segregate him from the general population. And he ended up spending six years, I think, in solitary confinement.

Wow. And it was during this period of solitary confinement that Tuki apparently began to change his way of thinking. Now, when you talk about the execution, Gibbs, this was something that, you know, as always, people took different sides on. You had the victim's families and many others that felt, yeah, he should be executed to pay for the crimes he had committed. You had many other people, including a number of celebrities who felt that Tuki had turned his life around in prison and he deserved to be spared from the death penalty. And this is where it really gets into, okay, how did he change his way of thinking?

I guess over the years he co-wrote a number of children's books, which seems only fitting. I think nine in all. They were aimed at preventing young children from joining gangs. Okay, that sounds all well and good. Gibbs, this guy was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. What? And the Nobel Prize for Literature not once multiple times. I thought you were going to say that the book was called Taking a Dukey was

Snootie with Butuki. Batuki. No. I mean, I don't know. We'll get into these books and what they, what they are. But there were a lot of people that had a definite problem with the fact that, you know, people were nominating this guy for such a prestigious award given the fact that he was a convicted murderer.

Right. Who now chose to write some children's books. He seemingly did a complete 180. You know, he began to regret the role he played in the formation of the Crips and the death, mayhem, and destruction that resulted from it over the years. In one of his books, he wrote, quote, don't join a gang. You won't find what you're looking for. All you will find is trouble, pain, and sadness.

I know I did. And this is where I think people are on different sides of the Tuky debate. Okay. Did the guy really turn his life around? maybe but was that enough did that wipe away the commission of the four murders death penalty aside right right some people are just always anti death penalty some people are always pro and then you have the people in the middle that will look at a specific case and and weigh the merits and say yeah I think this guy deserves to be put to death and no I don't think this guy does but prison

officials were very quick to point out that Tuki had continually refused to go through what they called the debriefing process. This is where he would sit down, talk about his gang and affiliation, and they said this was a process which would officially sever his affiliation with the Crips. He would never do it, even though he's writing all these children's books saying, hey, gangs are bad. I wish I'd never done this. But I'm ride and die with my. Yeah.

And they pointed to that a lot. If he would have done that, I think a lot more people would have viewed his turnaround. I'll use that word. Yeah. As more real. Because I think a lot of people thought it was fake that, you know, he was just writing these books and doing all this and saying that he was anti-gang.

to try to get out of the death penalty, while all the time still really being a part of the Crips. Yeah. Well, maybe he was. Yeah, maybe he was. I don't know. So he went through all his appeals, right? He exhausted all of those.

And so his bid for clemency fell to then-Governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger. Alibbe Bach. Which is still kind of hard to say, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger. Yeah. He apparently deliberated on a, it for four days before releasing a five-page statement denying clemency for Tuki. And this was just

about 12 hours before Stanley was scheduled to die. One part of the statement read, quote, without an apology and atonement for these senseless and brutal killings, there can be no redemption. In this case, the one thing that would be the clearest indication of complete remorse and full redemption is the one thing William won't do. And I said it, right? Tuki maintained that he was innocent the entire time he was on death row. Didn't do it. Never was me. And that's always kind of really tough. You know, when you look at some of these wrongful conviction cases, some of these guys, they stayed in prison much longer than they had to because they would not admit to something they didn't do. I mean, you can find case after case of that where the parole board had said,

you know, hey, if you would just admit what you did, we'll let you out. And some of these guys said, I'm not doing it because I didn't do it. And then later on, it was proven that they didn't do it, but yet they had spent 25, 30 years in prison. Now, I'm not saying he didn't do it. But I will say there are a lot of people that believe it's possible he was innocent. I think it's different when you're on death row. If you admit you did it, are you upping your chances for clemency? Or are you just now reversing your whole policy that, hey, I've been saying I've been guilty for all these years. I was full of shit. I really did all this. Yeah. I think he did it. I think he did it too based on the evidence, based on, you know, the jury saw all the evidence. So I'm assuming that all of that was correct.

nobody's proven it to be incorrect. But I guess I also don't get, okay, so are you saying if he would have admitted it, you would have granted him clemency? I don't think that was, I don't think that's a true statement. I don't think so. I think that's an easy way to say, this is the reason I'm not doing it because he hasn't atoned. So on December 12th, 2005, the day before his execution, Williams had oatmeal for breakfast, and then Gibbs, he refused his last meal. You're telling me that you're going to have oatmeal for breakfast, and that's it. You're really disappointed, wasn't I? I know I would.

I can't go out just with oatmeal. I don't even like oatmeal. I know a lot of people do, but that's not going to be the only thing I eat. If I have my special meal request, I'm doing it up. You definitely would do it up. I'm going to get some Chipotle. I mean, I don't know. I'd be happy with a pizza right now.

I've had pizza forever. You know, they have frozen pizzas that you can get from the... It's not the same. Aren't people still delivering? I want to go and get my pizza. Well, you can go and pick it up, too. The pizza place I want to go to is not open right now. Oh, okay.

Yeah, I want to go there. It's a very specific pizza. Yeah, exactly. I always got to be difficult, you know. You do. This can't be easy. I mean, there's a million pizza places. I'm pretty sure you can get a pizza, but...

All right. You just want this one that you can't have. Exactly. So at 6 p.m. Tuki was strip searched. He was given clean clothes and led into the death watch cell where apparently he watched some television and he drank some milk. The death watch sell. It's pretty ominous.

But very fitting name. Yeah. Sounds like a good name for a movie. Milk and oatmeal. That's what he had. Milk and oatmeal. Well, he was a body builder, lifter. Maybe that was what made him feel good.

Maybe. I don't know. I mean, he wasn't going to be tacking on mass. Yeah. Right before the execution. If I was going to eat some, something, when I have milk, I'm having cookies, man. So I'd want to get a whole sleeve of like chips of Hoy or get some toll house. Yeah.

Fresh baked cook. Double stuff horios. Oh, to spunk mire. Ooh. You like your spunk mire. I do. So outside San Quentin. There were a lot of people that showed up, as often happens, people held a candlelight vigil

for Williams. Jesse Jackson was there. Yeah. I mean, this is how big of a deal this thing was. Joan Baez showed up on a stage and sang a song outside the prison. Interesting. Interesting. And I guess these were held across the state.

They even had one at the Capitol building, MASH star Mike Farrell. read a statement condemning Schwarzenegger saying, quote, his decision was a shameful failure of leadership and a collapse of moral courage. So the reason why I'm saying this is to really try to emphasize how many people and definitely celebrities were in the camp of Tuki Williams. They really thought that he should not be put to death. Now, many of these people are just anti-death penalty. I was going to say that probably because they're anti-death, not save too key.

I'm sure they thought he did wrong, but they didn't think he probably deserved to be put to death for it. Well, there were a lot of people that were there not just because they were anti-death-pony. There were a lot of celebrities that lined up for him because they really thought he had turned his life around. Yeah. It was a mixture of both, I guess is what I'm saying. Normally, with most executions, you just have the anti-death penalty people, right, who are there to oppose the death penalty, not to champion the individual. Right. They just believe that no one should be put to death.

There were people literally in his camp. They wanted him to be spared because they thought he had made this miraculous turnaround. round. The lethal injection execution of Stanley Williams occurred on December 13th started around midnight. But it didn't go quite as planned. Well, obviously the end did. That part went as planned, but it took a while to get there. About 35 minutes from when it began, which was longer than normal, it was reported that it took 11 minutes of poking and prodding to get the first needle inserted into his arm. Yeah, big arms, man. He did.

That muscle. Yeah, that was one of the reasons given. I didn't say it, but it also, like, he was so big. They had a hard time maneuvering him into the area with the table. Like he had, he was just massive. Yeah, they weren't. That's not their typical death row person. At one point, he apparently looked up at the woman who was, you know, trying to get the needle into his arm.

and he said, you guys doing that right? Like he didn't, he didn't think they knew what they were doing or, so then they inserted the second needle and that's when the drug started to flow into the body of Stanley Williams. But even then, Gibbs, it took longer than normal for the drugs to do their intended job. And I know a lot of people have a problem with this, that whole process, because to them and they feel like you're torturing the person. If you're going to put them the death, put them the death. that it took 11 minutes to finally get the needle in, and then these drugs didn't take his life right

away. Some people have issues with that. It definitely took longer than it does for most people who are put to death by lethal injection. Prison officials later came out and said it was because he was just such a big man. It took more of the drug, and it took the drug longer to work. The guy, the guy was just so big. But you knew he's big. So why didn't you do your calculations to make sure. Because you weren't there to use your super NASA computer brain to figure out the equivalence. Good enough. I like that.

You're right. But he was finally pronounced dead. I think at like 1235. Still, it was a long time from beginning to end. After the execution, a few people who were there to watch on Tuki side, they jumped up. And they said, the state of California. California just killed an innocent man. Well, as you can imagine, that didn't sit very well with the family members of the

victims who were there in attendance. They didn't think he was an innocent man at all. Laura Owens, the stepmother of Albert Owens said that Williams' execution wouldn't end the heartache of losing Albert, but she said watching the killer take his last breath might help her let it go just a bit. Yeah, well, it's her right to be there. Yeah, it is. But I get what she's saying. I don't think that your relatives killer being put to death ends the heartache in any way. No. I mean, you know, I think, okay, you may think now this person got justice for what they did, but your loved one's still gone. It's still going to hurt. Yeah. That part's not going to change. At the time of his execution, Tuckie had a son named Stanley Williams Jr.

I think he had three sons in all. I didn't talk about him because I didn't think it was that important to the story. But this son in particular was serving a 16-year sentence for second-degree murder. And I thought that was interesting. Yeah, I wonder if he got pulled into the gang and that lifestyle or it just made a bad choice somewhere along the line. Yeah, it's a good question that I can't answer. I actually didn't really find much about him.

But I have some of the same questions. You know, how much did he learn from his father? You know, how much did he see of the way that his father acted in the things that he did? And did he pick up on them and, you know, carry on some of those same traditions? I don't know. But we've kind of touched on it Gibbs. You know, as we wrapped this case up, I think people were really divided about Tuki Williams, especially at the end of his life.

I mean, I don't think there was any doubt that. he was a bad guy. He was a gang leader. He was a murderer. I think most people believe that. Yeah. His early prison record wasn't any better. I mean,

he was a bad guy starting out. I guess the real question is, did he turn his life around? And even if he did, should that have meant that, you know, he should have been spared the death penalty. Many people thought he had turned his life around and should not be executed.

but I mentioned that fact that he never really cut ties officially with the Crips. And a lot of people pointed to that as proof that, you know, it was all a show, right? He was a fraud. Yeah, he was writing all these books telling kids don't join gangs, do the right thing. But then he chooses not to do what many people saw as the right thing by totally disassociating himself with the Crips. Lead by example. Yeah, and I think people thought that was at odds with these other good things that he was trying

to do. Right. There's no doubt he gave a number of interviews over the years expressing his regret in starting the Crips. You know, he has said that he and Raymond started it as something that would provide protection against all of the gangs that were popping up and, you know, committing crimes against his community. The problem is, you know, he says they became the same monsters that they were trying to stop. He said the gang started killing too many people, my people, my own people. I wish it had

never happened. So I know he said that in interviews that he deeply regretted ever starting the gang in the first place because of what it became. It blew up out of nowhere. And it really changed the whole gang mentality over the over time. And I think it did. I think there's no way that those two guys had any inkling that what they were starting was going to become what it did and has. I, I truly believe that. And they made the bandana companies a ton of money as well as the the Bloods did too, who started a little bit later. I don't know when they started. I think it was the Crips first, the bloods came later. But obviously those two were the big rivals.

Well, and you wore your colors, so you had to go get your bandana. Colors. Colors. Yeah. Don't make me start a little iced tea on you. I'm half tempted. Mm, I wouldn't be. There was a movie that came out in 2004 called Redemption in which Jamie Fox played

Tuki Williams. I haven't seen it. I saw a trailer clip of it. I like Jamie Fox. I think he's a good actor. Yeah. He's actually good serious actor, but... Yeah, he's very multifaceted.

Yeah, he can do all that. Plus, he can sing good. Yeah, he can sing, dance. He's funny. He's a comedian, obviously, and he can act, too. Can't podcast, though. He probably does have... Everybody has one.

That's true. But, you know, to me, Gibbs, when it all boils down, I just don't think I've ever seen anyone like this guy, this Tuki Williams. Probably the closest, person that comes to mind to me is a woman. And that's Carla Faye Tucker. Really? Yeah. Okay. I mean, if you think about it, she did a horrible thing. Then seemingly turned her life around in prison. Yeah. She gained a ton of support with people, you know, thinking that she should not be put to death. That's really the closest that I can come. But in the end, it didn't work. She was put to death just like Tuki was.

Yeah, I mean, she had to pay a price for what she did. Yeah, and the crimes she committed were horrible. I know you remember them. But that's it. That's it for the episode on Stanley Tuki Williams. Yeah. I feel like putting some old school rap on. Yeah, and hopefully I won't have to say Tuki too much anymore.

It's kind of lost its meaning now in my mind. You know how you say a word too many times. Oh, I know. It's like, what am I saying? Tuki? Tuki. Tuki, what? We've got some voicemails.

You want to check those out? Let's hear. Oh, Mike and Gibby. My heart is beating so fast right now. I'm almost out of breath. I'm so happy to be able to call you guys. And thank you for all the podcasts you guys have put out. Look at me.

I'm running out of breath. I really liked the one on Robert Berdelia. He's from the city. I'm from Kansas City. And I really enjoyed listening to that as well as all the others. I have another one for you. Dr. Debra Green, but she's from Kansas, but that's like our neighboring town. And gosh, I'm just a lot of breath.

Anyway, I am team Mike and Givie. I love both of you. You guys are like peanut butter and jelly. I love you both. And thanks so much for all that you do for us by putting out these great podcasts. Keep your own time ticking. Talk to you later. Bye.

Hey, who's the jelly and who's the peanut butter? I would probably be the peanut butter because peanut butter is kind of a staple It's not sexy I see what you're saying It's just kind of a staple type food You're the jelly You're the pizzazz

You're the sweetness Yeah I'm grape jelly See But I do like me some peanut butter and jelly I do too man But you can have a peanut butter sandwich all by itself See? You can

You can have a jelly sandwich all by itself too it's just a little too much for me if you have just jelly. You eat that. Remember, was that stuff for Goober? Goober where they mix the peanut butter and the jelly in the same container. Yeah, and they had like their own little. And neither one of them would freaking come out. You have to like get in there.

About halfway into the thing. Yeah. That's why you don't see it anymore probably. As far as I know, they don't make it anymore. I think it's out there still. Is it? It's a rarity to find it. Well, it's not that hard to get out one thing of peanut butter and a thing.

a jelly. No, it's not. It's really not that hard. Really lazy. I mean, you've jumped the shark when you're too lazy to scoop out two separate substances from two separate containers. Yeah. I actually had a peanut butter and jelly sandwich this week. Did you? Yeah, it was good. Actually, I think I did two. My daughters were making one the other night and I said, that sounds good. Won't you make me one too? I didn't make it personally, but. I had to make my home, man. Because, you know, I got people to do that. I know you do. It's special. This is Karina from Tahitrape, California. I was just listening to episode 166, either Lundon or London.

And I just thought it was so hilarious. I was like, I actually had to wait a second before I called in this voicemail because I was laughing so hard. When he asked if he was ready for the episode and then he went into like, there was three accents in there. He went Irish. It turned into Indian, and then he followed up with Jamaican, and I thought that was absolutely hilarious. But I love your guys' podcast. I can't believe. I just saw on the website that you guys are on 176, and I was surprised how fast I caught up, because I was listening to Criminology.

That's where I started. I completed that and still listened to it, and I listened to you guys every day because I drive a ridiculous amount of time to and from work. So I get a story in on my way and I get a story in on my way back. So it's awesome. I love you guys. You do a great job. I'm always cracking up at your guys' banter, which probably isn't the best.

It's a murder podcast. But I really enjoy it. You guys, keep up the good work. I love it. Yeah, and keep your own time taken. Aye. My Jamaican accent, it's not too bad, you know. That sounds like I'm right.

Oh, man. You can just pick an accent and stay with it the whole way through. It's hard to do. Lately, you've been morphing into French and then real, like, southern. It's just, you can't stick with one dialect through just one little bit. And we got that Aussie case coming up. I'm going to just have to really go a full-blown Aussie character all week long. So when I get here.

Yeah, you might have to just watch some Australians on YouTube or something, really get into the mindset. that. McDundee. You think that's a knife. Yeah, if you can sit through that, go ahead. Yeah. Hey, Mike and Gibby. This is Lisa in Sandy, Utah.

I called you once before, and I actually suggested the topic of Gary Arthur Bishop, and you guys did that. So I'm going to go ahead and think that I'm the one that started you on that. If not, that's okay, too. But I'm glad you did that episode. He was a horrible man. Anyway, you know, I keep going back and forth with the Mike versus Gibby or the Fergie versus Gibby. And just when I start to go Fergie, then Gibby wins me over.

But then if Mike would sing, if Fergie would sing more often, then I would just be a Fergie fan all the time. So more singing, more singing. Okay, you guys, thanks for everything you guys do. Keep your own time ticking. But she hasn't heard me sing yet. I always give you the opportunity to belt a couple hours. Oh, no. That's your thing. I'll let you do it.

Just give us a couple lines of something. That's your thing, man. I don't want to take that from you. No. That's all you, man. You're so scared. That's you. I'll work in a song or two in future episodes.

Hi, guys. This is Sydney from Finland again. Thanks for this great podcast and especially for the huge information package of John Wayne Gasey. I'm going to give us a suggestion for a Nordic case. Black metal murders in Norway in the 90s. Here must say that Finland has the most metal band per capita in the world. I'm a metalhead too, although black metal ain't my cup of tea.

Please, please keep safe and pitaghe Elon Nekello ticketamast. Yeah, I've heard about that case. Yep, I have too. I did not know that Finland has the most death metal bands per capita. Really? No. Did you know that? Did you know that she said that?

I heard her say something like that, you know, but. Now, her, her English was actually very, very good. I understand more of what she said than. Easy. Some of the. Easy. Easy. You're rants.

But we appreciate it. We appreciate all the voicemails. And we definitely have that one on the list. Maybe we'll work that in. Yeah. In the future. Gives we had some mailbag. Okay.

And speaking of, uh, out that way. Yeah. Our good friend Lottie sent us in some goodies from Denmark. It was like a little Danish Easter basket. Scandinavian gift. Yeah, my kids jumped all over it. They love Lottie because Lottie usually sends chocolate.

Yeah. And they especially love these things called Kinder eggs. They have like little toys in them. Really? Yeah. I love them. As long as your daughters are happy. That's all that matters, right?

Lottie, you know, we all love Lottie. Oh, yeah. Mother and daughter, Julie and Natalie, Golubski. Yeah. Send in some TP. There you go. Gibbs.

I mean, nothing says thank you or I love you like a bunch of rolls of toll paper. My wife was over the moon. You ain't shooting. I know. I'm not. All right. So on that note, that is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby.

Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.