True Crime All The Time - Stephen Marshall

Episode Date: June 23, 2025

In March and April 2009, a man’s dismembered remains were scattered across two counties in England. The “jigsaw man,” as the media called the victim, was identified as 49-year-old Jeffrey Howe. The main suspect was his roommate and “best friend,” Stephen Marshall. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Stephen Marshall. Jeffrey Howe thought he was helping out Stephen Marshall and his girlfriend, Sarah Bush, by allowing them both to stay in his home. But Jeffrey soon realized he had made a mistake because the pair ate up his food and contributed little. Jeffrey Howe would never get the chance to kick them out.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 440 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? Hey, I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing great. You and I talked on our Patreon thing about my wife helping me clean up the studio slash basement. Yeah. And I'm telling you right now when my wife gets in that mode, you better watch out. It's like a whirlwind. I'm just glad I wasn't here. because I think she would have thrown me out. Oh, yeah. She's been threatening to throw you out for years. But she really got into that, holding things up, you know, keep, throw away. Keep, throw away. It was just like two hours of that. You're like, just do whatever you want with it.

Just throw it all the way. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Andrew Robeshod. Hey, Robinshad. Did you put an inn in there? Probably. Yeah. Ginger Lauderdale jumped out to a highest level.

Oh, Loderdale. Laura Harkness. Hey, Laura. Miss Mary SLP. What up, Mary SLP? Chase. Hey, Chase. Kristen.

Well, thanks, Kristen. Melissa Blanco. Hey, Blanco. Marissa Mapp jumped out of our highest level. What's up, Marissa? Steve Violet. Hey, Violet. And last but not least, Laurel H.

Thanks, Laurel. And then if we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Caitlin Quill. Hey, there's Caitlin. Yeah, so we appreciate the new support, the continued support, all of it. We have a new episode out right now on true crime all the time unsolved where we're talking about 31 year old Billy Smolensky. He went missing in August 2004. One of the last calls that he made was to a man who was romantically involved with his girlfriend. And he hasn't been seen or heard

from since. So we have to dive into all of that. Check it out. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am. In March, in April 2009, a man's dismembered remains, were found scattered across two counties in England. The jigsaw man is the media called the victim, was identified as 49-year-old Jeffrey Howland. The main suspect turned out to be his roommate and best friend, Stephen Marshall. What a terrible name to be known as, though. Yeah, I mean, first of all, you were murdered, you died, and then the media is calling you, the jigsaw maker.

Yeah. Which I get it. You know, you have to sell papers. Now, killers always get names, monikers. But nobody really cares about the feelings of these heinous killers.

Of course not. But when you're talking about the victim, it seems a little bit callous. A little bit. Jeffrey Howe was a kitchen salesman from Southgate, North London. he had previously worked as a cook in Italy and had lived in different parts of England. Jeffrey was unmarried and had no children.

He lived in a block of apartments. His neighbor Francis Loz out described him as aggressive and unfriendly. She argued with him over his attitude towards children playing outside his apartment. Okay. Sounds like one of those guys who maybe didn't like kids, wasn't happy with them. them playing, you know, there's always that person in the neighborhood who gets teed off when the kids run through their yard. Oh, yeah.

Sometimes an old man, get off of my yard. I remember that when I was a kid. Just a grumpy neighbor. And run by him, F you, man. Probably the one that always peed in his bushes, too. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, why not? In 2008, Jeffrey met Stephen Marshall, who had also started working as a kitchen salesman.

The two became drinking. banking buddies and Stephen described Jeffrey as his best friend. And maybe this is a guy who didn't have a ton of friends. You know, if you are described as aggressive and unfriendly, maybe hard to make friends, hard to keep friends. I would think it would be. Sources report that Stephen once owned a gym and previously was a bodybuilder and personal trainer. He'd been married twice and had four children. So this guy sounds a lot like you. Yeah, you mean, it reminds you of me because of the bodybuilding and the training. Yeah, you know, you own that gym back in the day.

You were a personal trainer. You still claim to be a personal trainer, which is a little harder to pull off now. You know, the gym was pretty cool. Gibby's gym. Yeah. You know? And the training? Was it?

Mainstream? No. No. No. It was like Dwight on the office when he tried to open that gym after he bought the building. It's like ripping phone books and, you know, carrying pictures of water. I just thought it was a good way to, you know, get people to do everyday movements. Without spending anything on equipment or weights or accoutrements, things like that.

Exactly. Yeah. Move that mop a little faster, guys. That's what I would tell them. Stephen's friend said he lived a playboy lifestyle. He often hired sex workers, used drugs, and had a violent temper that led to fights with friends and strangers. Okay, this guy is exactly like you.

What, the violent temper? No. The playboy lifestyle, the hiring of sex workers, the drug use. Massive amount of drug use, you know. No, it's actually the, all of that is the complete opposite. you. No one would ever describe you as having led a playboy lifestyle. I don't think so. Or me, me either, but for that matter. Well, I'm not surprised these two guys get along based off of this description, though. Well, maybe based on the violent tempers. Yeah. They both had tempers,

I guess. Sometimes, you know, personalities attract that way, you know. They can, I guess. In 2008, Stephen was in a relationship with 20-year-old Sarah Bush, the sex worker. They started dating after Stephen paid her for sex. According to the BBC, they had what was termed a stormy relationship. Stephen was very controlling of Sarah. For example, he made her drop the H at the end of her name. He disliked her friends and he was allegedly violent towards the father of Sarah's children, who sought an injunction against him.

Sarah had to sneak out to visit her kids because Stephen made it difficult for her to do so. Kind of reminds me the time you had me drop my Y after Ghibi. Just wanted to be Gib. How controlling is that, though? I mean, we talk about a lot of controlling guys. Sure. But you can't let someone spell their name the way that it was given to them. Like her legal name?

Her legal name? Yeah. You want it S-A-R-A without the age. Don't let me see you spell it the other way anymore. I mean, it's crazy. In November 2008, Jeffrey allowed Stephen and Sarah to move into his apartment because he wanted to help them out. But he soon regretted extending the offer.

Stephen and Sarah didn't pay rent, and they stole Jeffrey's food. Around Christmas time, Jeffrey complained to his boss that his roommates were eating him out of house and home. He mentioned that they refused to leave after promising to do so. Nothing worse than somebody coming to your house and eating all your food. Yeah. Yeah, that's terrible. Happens to me once a week.

The only good thing is I know at the end of the night, you're leaving. You're going home. Well, that's true. If you failed to do so, we'd have a big problem. My wife and I don't have enough money to feed you every day. It just couldn't happen. And it's so weird when it's time for me to go. It's like you take me along a direct path up the stairs.

Straight to the door? Yeah, like not past the fridge. Not going to let me open up the freezer to grab it like an ice cream sandwich. There's no lingering. No. You know, hey, we did what we had to do and be gone. Time to go. But let you know, let's talk about this situation.

You know, you're trying to help some people out. this guy who, you know, he thinks of as his best friend and this guy's girlfriend, they're right. They need a place to stay. He's going to let them stay with them. But it sounds like they just, you know, essentially took advantage of me. Yeah. I mean, if you're staying with somebody, they're letting you stay there,

at least what you could do is maybe buy the groceries. But don't eat all their groceries. And it also sounds like they made him. think this was going to be a very short-term thing. And then they just kind of settled in. And they're like, hey, it's pretty good here. Why move? Yeah. We'll just stay. Yeah. Let's hold this free food. Sarah fraudulently applied for housing benefits, stating on her application that she lived alone and Jeffrey was leasing the flat. Stephen forged Jeffrey's signature on the documents. So a little bit of fraud going on now. Not good. No. No, not at all. Prosecutors later said,

the couple saw Jeffrey's inability to evict them as a weakness and an opportunity for them to steal from him. See, you try to be nice and it backfires. And people take advantage of it. And it can be, in some jurisdictions, extremely hard to evict someone, whether they're paying rent or not. Oh, yeah, we know that very well. The fact that you allowed them to live there. I think most people think you can just say, hey, get out. It doesn't work that way.

It doesn't always work that way. Authorities believe Jeffrey Howe was stabbed to death on March 8th or 9th, 2009. A friend came to visit Jeffrey back in late January 2009 and found Sarah and Stephen living in the apartment. She later tried to call Jeffrey and learned he had not been seen or heard from in a while. She reported him missing on March 15th, 2009. It makes you wonder if she didn't try to call Jeffrey to get a hold of him. Would anyone have reported him missing? Yeah, I don't know because we just talked about it, right?

I don't think this is a guy who had like a wide circle of friends. Two officers went to the apartment on March 16th and forced their way inside when no one answered the door. They found Jeffrey's passport on a coffee table. There was no visible blood or signs of a struggle inside the apartment. When investigators were able to speak to Sarah and Stephen, they were told that as far as they knew, Jeffrey was still alive. They claimed he had packed up his things and moved out. And they hadn't talked to him since. Okay.

I think for police, you've got a real strange situation here. You know, you have someone who has reported. as missing, you go to that individual's residence, you're inside, there's nothing that's standing out, right, as, oh, obviously something bad happened here. Right. And you have some people who are living there who say, you know, the guy just packed up his stuff and left. The only thing he left was his passport. I mean, I don't know as an investigator what you really have to, to go. But then on March 22nd, 2009. A man's left leg severed at the thought, was found wrapped in blue plastic near the roadside in cottered Hertfordshire. Would be a strange thing to come across. I always think so.

Now, would it be rougher to find a dead body whole or pieces of a body? And I don't know the answer to that because I've never found either one. Yeah, I think it would be difficult either way, but I think I'd be wondering, where's the other pieces at? Like, why is it just this piece here right now? Jeffrey typically spoke to his mother on the phone. Several times a week, she was worried when she didn't hear from him and reported him missing as well.

On March 28, Jeffrey's brother visited his apartment and was told by Sarah Bush that Jeffrey had not collected rent for a while and left with his business. belongings. So maybe they were paying rent at one time. Kind of makes it seem like that when she says, oh, he hadn't collected rent for a while. But again, you know, just like with the police, you know, family are showing up. And all they have to go by is what they're being told by the occupants living there. Well, that's true. And it's pretty tough when the only information you can get is from the occupants. But they're super worried, right? This is a guy who, like we said, spoke to his mom on the phone several times a week.

Now, he's not calling anyone. And what is a family to think? I mean, red flags, right? Right. I mean, you have to start to get worried when no one has seen this person. They're not calling you on March 29th, a man's left form severed above the wrist and below the elbow was found by the side of the road in wheat hamsteads. about 40 minutes from cotter. All right.

So here's a second body part. Yeah. Found. Obviously severed. I mean, there's just, there would be no doubt about it if you saw this. Cut off at the wrist. Cut off just below the elbow. It would be very obvious.

And do you go, huh, I'm wonder if that goes with that thigh we found earlier. But you're assuming that these were found by the same people. and I do not believe they were. On March 31st, the remains of a severed head were found in a field in Lestyshire, about 100 miles from Wheat Hampstead. The flesh of the scalp and face had been removed. The ears, tongue, and parts of the neck had been cut away. I feel like I'm going to get sick.

Well, we did just eat pizza, which makes this even more difficult. all. Now, we've done a number of stories that have involved dismembered bodies. And some of them, you know, become very gruesome. Just the idea of a dismembered body is gruesome. But then when you talk about, you know, the scout being removed, the face actually being removed, all I can think about is silence of the lamb. Yeah. Where he cut that guard's face off and, and put, and, it on his own. I'm just trying to imagine what it's like walking up on that in the field, seeing it going, what the hell is that? Well, like we talked about, right? The thigh, the forearm. That's going to be a rough day when you find those. Sure. But when you find a severed head,

missing ears, the scalp, the face, yeah, that's going to be haunting. A man severed right leg. was found just off the A10 near Puckridge, Hertfordshire on April 7th. The leg was wrapped in rubber bags and sealed with tape. Okay, the other thing Gibbs, I think we have to talk about is if you live around these areas. And again, they're not super close. We're talking about 40 miles, 100 miles. But if you live anywhere around these areas, you got to start seeing on the news, right, that body parts are being found.

Yeah. You're wondering what is going on. Yeah, you're asking yourself, what the hell is going on here? And why are they rolling out every now and then, right? It's not like they're popping up the same day or then, you know, just a day or two. It's spread out. Yeah, it is. It's spread out a little bit.

I mean, I think they're just being found, right? On April 11th, a man's torso was found in a green suitcase and a drainage ditch. at Collier's in, Hertfordshire. With this discovery, authorities were able to figure out the man's cause of death. He was stabbed twice in the back

with a four inch blade. One of the wounds punctured his lung. I think the other thing we have to talk about, it's not like you're finding multiple right feet, multiple, you know, similar body, but these are all different body parts.

At some point, do you not have to begin to think that these all go together. Right. Yeah. Can I also say that I will never open up a suitcase found on anywhere besides inside of a home or an airport based on this and some previous cases we did with suitcases knowing that people are using them to put bodies in? Yeah, I don't think it's a good idea to just, you know, find a suitcase in the woods and be like, oh, I wonder why. what's in there. But what if there's half a million dollars in there and you don't open it?

See, you got me. Because now I'm going to have to open it just to make sure that it's not money. Also, why are you opening people's suitcases in their homes and at the airport? Well, that's another story. Oh, okay. The police released a description of the victim, his cause of death, and a photo of the green suitcase. Despite a search, the hands were never found. And that's interesting, right? You would think the hands would be kind of key or maybe the easiest way to identify this person based on this description. A member of the public called the police on April 21st to identify the victim as the missing Jeffrey how he was publicly identified on April 23rd. So I mentioned, right, the hands were never found that, you know, was that done?

to try to keep this victim from being identified. And then I go back to the face. Was that done to try to keep the victim from being identified? It seems like it would have been. I don't know what other reason someone would have. Right. Other than trying to make it harder to identify this person. Neighbors said they believed Jeffrey had moved away six months earlier.

They hadn't seen Jeffrey or his two vehicles. and believed he had rented out his apartment. So do you find it strange that neighbors are saying they haven't seen him for six months? Yeah, because we're talking about April, right? And we already said that they estimated that he died like around the first week of March, right? The eighth or the ninth, somewhere around there. So people saying that they hadn't seen him in six months seems very strange to me. Jeffrey's brother issued a statement with the announcement.

Jeffrey was an extremely caring son. He was a jovial, charming character who had a heart of gold and would get on with anyone. He could be a little selfish sometimes, but did what he thought was best. As you can imagine, our family has been left extremely traumatized by what has happened. We're finding it extremely hard to come to terms with what has happened and we ask to be left alone at this time. And what else are you going to say? Right? If you're this guy's brother, okay, he could be a little selfish. Well, who can't? That's true. We already said, people said he had, you know, somewhat of a temper. He yelled at some of the kids in the neighborhood. But that doesn't make the guy a bad guy. But even if he's not the best guy in the world, you're talking about a loved one who's died. You got to come up with some flattering things to say. Not only did he die, his body parts have been found across.

across several areas. Yeah. So, I mean, you're assuming at that point he was murdered. Right. That day, authorities announced they had arrested a 37-year-old man and a 20-year-old woman on suspicion of murder two days earlier. They were being held for questioning. They were described as Jeffrey's flatmates and were, of course, later identified as Stephen

Marshall and Sarah Bush. Well, I think those would be the logical first people you would go. go talk to. Well, he was living here. You said he moved out. Nobody really knows where he went, but yet then we find his body. And you're conveniently still living here paying no rent. Right. The police also discovered that Stephen previously lived close to the area where Jeffrey's torso was found. The arresting officer recalled that during questioning, Marshall was very, very nervous, jittery. His leg was shaking. Sarah Bush was was described as very uncomfortable in her interview.

So I'll ask you, Gibbs, is a person who's been questioned by the police many times. I mean, it has to be a little unnerving, right? It can be, you know, especially if you've never been through it before. Yeah. But after what, the eighth or tenth time, you're, you probably have it down pretty good. You kind of get accustomed to it. Sarah told the police that Stephen experienced mood swings. And she was planning on leaving him.

she said per the BBC, he has his ups and downs. Sometimes he's a nice person, but sometimes he's really evil. Okay, you might say that about a lot of people you know, right? They, well, they have their ups and downs. Sometimes they're nice. Sometimes they're not so nice. But how many times do you use the term really evil in describing someone? Yeah, that would be a rarity, I would think.

You might as well, just come out and say, well, yeah, he's a kid. killer. Stephen gave no comment during questioning. While performing a detailed forensic search of Jeffrey's apartment, investigators found blood in the bedroom, bathroom, under the carpet, and in Jeffrey's recovered car. Green fibers from a shirt in Stephen's room, matched fibers on duct tape used to wrap the dismembered remains. So it sounds like the investigation is going very well. Well, it also sounds like a lot of this happened inside the apartment. I mean, I imagine there was quite a bit of blood. They found it in a number of different rooms underneath the carpet.

Well, I'm not surprised, right? If you're going to dismember a body, it's going to get a little messy. I can imagine very messy. Stephen Marshall and Sarah Bush's Trump started on January 12th. 2010 at St. Albans' Crown Court. The court heard that Jeffrey let Stephen and Sarah live at his apartment when they needed somewhere to stay when he later wanted them to move out. They refused to leave and began plotting to kill him. The plan was to kill Jeffrey, conceal his disappearance while stealing his money and property. Because, you know, let's face it, Gibbs, what's easier? Go out and get jobs?

work and, you know, pay rent, or kill the person and just take over their house and live there, rent free. If you can stomach that and live with that, I guess that's the route to go. That's what they chose. Well, I was being facetious. I know. Okay. I don't want anybody to think I was being serious there.

On March 8th or 9th, 2009, Stephen stabbed Jeffrey in the back, while Sarah placed a pillow over his face. they both participated in the dismemberment and disposal of the body. I'm just trying to picture how that all goes, you know. All right, babe, get the knives. Or knives. Or knives, yeah. Grab some wrapping paper, plastic, whatever. Maybe a few towels.

Yeah, I don't think a lot of killers use, like, Christmas wrapping paper. Is that what you're talking about? I'm thinking like cling wrap the. Kling wrap, whatever you call. the clear the clear rap yeah yeah but first you have to have the conversation before it even starts right sure hey this is what i think we should do we should kill this man and just kind of take over his apartment take his identity and get as much as we can off of and then obviously you have to put it in motion and carry it out after killing geoffrey stephen and sarah continued

living in his apartment, they sold his phone the day after the murder and soon sold his car on eBay. They used his bank account to buy clothes, shoes, food, and other items. They forged checks and emptied his account. Okay, here's the other thing that I'm really picking up on is, you know, I don't think we're talking about criminal masterminds here. I don't know how these two thought they were going to get away with this. Yeah, I agree with you. I don't think they were the smartest people whatsoever. I think they were just reacting. Like, hey, there's this checkbook or bank card. Let's go get some money. Let's do this. Which I think a lot of people do, right? They sometimes don't think about the consequences or, you know, what they would have to do afterwards to keep from getting caught. Like immediate gratification is the, the, the, the problem. primary goal and then, okay, whatever comes after comes after. Unfortunately, in a lot of cases, that's going to be you getting caught, being convicted, and going to prison for a long time.

And I was surprised that after Jeffrey's brother came by looking for him, that they were still living there after that. Why not move? It's almost like they didn't fear the consequences or didn't think they would get caught. Sarah also used a computer in a public library. to make purchases using Jeffrey's identity. The court heard that Sarah and Stephen were linked to the murder through phone records, fibers, blood, and incriminating remarks. Their journey to licesture, where Jeffrey's head was found, was tracked by CCTV, an automatic number plate recognition.

Sarah also talked about the murder while drinking with friends. And Stephen previously told a witness about disdain. about dismembering and disposing of bodies. Additionally, Stephen had connections to weed hampset, where Jeffrey's arm was found, and Sarah had connections to East Hertfordshire, where other remains were found. Who tells people, you know,

hey, I'll have another beer over here. By the way, you know, Judy, you know, the other night. We killed this guy. Yeah. It's so strange. It just doesn't make any sense why you would do something like that. And then you have, you know, Stephen telling people how he dismembered a body. Almost as if they must have been bragging about it.

Hey, if you guys ever want to know how to take a body apart, me and Sarah actually did one the other night. And here's how you got to do it. The prosecution pointed out that Stephen had a record of violence and associated himself with criminals. He was convicted of criminal damage, assault, battery against an ex-wife and possession of cocaine and a firearm. In 1996, Stephen was arrested on suspicion of murdering 23-year-old Manesh Negretia,

whose body was found disfigured and burned. He was never charged and later appeared as a witness. Okay. It's pretty interesting, though. It is. You have a guy who's arrested on suspicion of murder, who later does go on to, to commit a murder. Makes you wonder about that one.

Makes you want to maybe do a look back. Sarah was not convicted of any crimes, but was cautioned for assault and possession of cannabis. But remember, she was only 20 years old at the time. That's true. He was older. Yeah. At the start of trial,

Stephen pleaded guilty to two counts of perverting the course of justice by giving false information during the missing person investigation and dismembering the body. In disposing of the remains, to impede the investigation, he admitted to intending to prevent a coroner from holding an inquest by disposing of the body in different locations. But here's the catch, Gibbs. He still denied committing the murder. He claimed Sarah did it. And he only helped dismember and dispose of the remains. Wasn't me. It was her. So I'm going to plead guilty to, you know, impeding the course of justice.

I'm going to plead guilty to dismemberment and disposing of the remains. But I did not commit this murder. That was all Sarah. Right. Now, Sarah continued to deny all charges against her. She's probably thinking, you son of a bitch. I'm sure. But isn't that what we see time and time again?

Oh, yeah. You have these two. people who seem to be working in concert until the shit hits the fan. Yeah. And it's like self-preservation takes over. The finger pointing starts. And it's like, how can everybody cover their own asses? Yeah, well, love is not thicker than water.

I just was wondering where you were going with that. I was going to say when it comes down to prosecution, you know. Yeah. They turn on each other really quick. I get that. But, you know, the love is not thicker than. what? Oh yeah. I see where you're going to go. I didn't know where you were going to end up and I don't think you did either. The prosecution pointed out that Jeffrey's body was skillfully and cleanly

dismembered. A pathologist concluded that the person responsible had prior experience with dismemberment. According to the pathologist's estimate, the dismemberment of Jeffrey Howes remains would have taken at least 12 hours. After being stabbed, Jeffrey may have been a lot of for up to an hour, suffering significant blood loss. How tragic is that? Yeah, I mean, it's heartbreaking, right? We already know that this man, Jeffrey Howe lost his life. And then his body was later dismembered.

But now we find out that, you know, he could have lived for up to an hour in agonizing pain. Yeah. They could at one point said, you know what? We made a really bad mistake here. We didn't mean to stab you. We're going to call and get you help and maybe you can still live. No. No.

No, they're too far down the road. Yeah. And I don't think, you know, these were people who were interested in any way in doing the right thing. But I want to go back to this pathologist talking about that this had to be a person with some experience with dismemberment. Yeah. I mean, you know, if you think about it, the common person, the late person. the lay person trying to dismember a body. I'm assuming it's going to be all over the place, a mess.

Who would know exactly the best point on the body to cut? Yeah, if you don't have that knowledge, you're probably just going to start cutting at random spots of the body. Yeah, I mean, obviously if you have medical education, you know, that's one thing. but if you have dismembered a body before or maybe multiple bodies, well, you would have learned something from doing that.

The court heard from Sarah's former partner, Lee Bunyan, who testified that he and Stephen had an argument about Sarah seeing their children. Stephen told him, per the independent, if you don't let Sarah see the kids, I'm going to take you to Epic and get rid of you. Okay.

Well, that's obviously a threat. I mean, most people might say, you know, we're going to have words. We're going to have a problem. Right. But when you say get rid of someone, that's like, that's the end. Yeah, definitely has a final meeting. Yeah. There's some finality to it.

A witness testified that Stephen bragged about dismembering bodies for the Adams family, a crime family based in Clerkenwell, North London. Also, a popular show back in the day. with Wednesday? Sure. Yeah. So now we have a idea why maybe somebody had experience at taking bodies apart. He's telling them that he used to do it all the time.

For the mafia. Yeah. You know who dismembers a lot of bodies? The mafia. The mafia. I mean, this guy, you know, he could have been something like a Kiklinsky, you know, kind of a hitman fixer, you know, Kiklensky disempered people. put him in barrels and did all kinds of stuff.

Did what he had to do. The anonymous witness testified that Stephen claimed to be a cousin of the family and that his uncle was Terry Adams, who at the time was serving a seven-year sentence. For money laundering, Stephen worked as a bouncer for a London nightclub run by the family in the 1990s. The witness told the court as quoted by the independent. Stephen claimed that Terry was big in the underworld in London. He said that he began working the doors. And then because he was part of the family, got asked to do additional jobs after hours,

taking care of situations, as he put it, which meant at times he said that bodies would appear. And he was asked to take care of them. Hey, before you go home, there's a couple bodies out the back. I just need you to take care of those. It seems strange, but I could see it happening. Yeah. I mean, if he really was kind of, you know, part of the family, right, of this mafia type organization, maybe at the time he wasn't killing people, but could they have asked him to do this?

And if he had done a number of these, well, obviously, you would gain a world of experience as you were doing them. Sure. If you just want to get home, you're like, what do I got to do to make this go a little quicker? And you learn and you say, okay. What's the easiest way? What's the cleanest way, make the cuts the easiest they can be? Take care of meant dismembering and burying bodies. The witness said he would cut up the bodies,

decapitate them, severing them at their limbs. He said he would put them into black bags and bury them, sometimes in Epping Forest, sometimes in different places. Stephen told her he used a meat cleaver, large meat knives or a chainsaw or hacksaw to dismember the bodies. He described how it would take a long time and be extremely laborious, take hours and hours to do.

He would put them in plastic bags and bury them separately in different places. I mean, it's some pretty detailed descriptions. Yeah, and if true, I think it says a lot about this guy, Stephen, Now, to this point, nobody is saying, okay, he's killing a lot of people, but he is doing the work to get rid of bodies after people have been killed. It was said that the first time Stephen did this, he was nauseated and used cocaine to cope, which led to addiction. I'm sure he was nauseated. How could he not have been? According to the BBC, the witness added, he described, burning them and the distinct smell of burning human flesh instead it was something you could

never forget. He compared it to the smell of burning pig flesh. That makes me a little sick. Oh, yeah. Yeah, the, the idea of being around burning human flesh is quite sickening. Stephen also suggested to the witness that Jeffrey Howell was an ideal candidate to kill and steal his identity. And I'm sure Gibbs, they came to that conclusion based on the fact that, you know, maybe he didn't have a lot of friends. Yeah, he had some family. Maybe they didn't come around a lot.

He didn't see them a lot. On one occasion, Steve had pointed out of sight where a head was found and said the police would not find the rest of the body. He also threatened to dismember the witness and scatter her remains. around the country. Okay. Tough to come forward. But obviously this woman did, but, you know, was that after he was arrested? Because I think prior to the arrest, that is a pretty scary threat, knowing this guy is saying that he's already done this a bunch of times. Well, it's certainly going to think about it before coming forward. Two friends of Sarah Bush testified that she told them

while drunk that she helped Stephen kill Jeffrey by placing a pillow over his face to stop the noise after he was stabbed. Sarah's friend Daniel Matthews testified that Sarah came to her house on March 30th, 2009. After getting drunk, Sarah said, Steve killed Jeff. Daniel continued by saying per the BBC, she said it started in the bathroom. She was saying lots of blood, a foot, dismembered, constriction of breath. She said Steve was goading Jeff about moving out of his home. He turned around to Jeff and said, get out of your home. I'll kill you and your family. Jeffrey laughed and did not take this threat seriously. Daniel said, I understood he died either by being strangled or by smothering, but she did say lots of blood. She never said why he'd done it. And I go back to your point,

Gibbs, you know, you're, you're going out on a night on the town or to somebody's house to have some drinks. How does the discussion of murder come up? Was it because she was drunk and, you know, uninhibited at that point? Just wanting to tell somebody. Well, could it weigh on you heavily? Like, you're about ready to explode. I've got to tell somebody. Right. Yeah. And maybe she thought her good friends would keep her secret. I don't know. As her friend, are you, can you imagine a friend saying this? I mean, you're leaving there going, or when she leaves there, you're going, what the hell, man? What was that about? Yeah. And, you know, the strength of the friendship can only be tested so much. You know, at a certain point, most people are going to want to do the right

thing. Sure. Even if that means, you know, turning in their friend. Sarah told Danielle that she deposited a check to her account from Jeffrey's account and that Stephen was buying cocaine with Jeffrey's money. Daniel also testified that she was afraid of Stephen because he threatened to kill her. And I don't doubt that. You know, it sounds like Stephen had threatened to kill a lot of different people. And why would you not take him seriously after what happened? Yeah. I mean, you, you've got to put a lot of weight into it, right, at that point. Sophie Franklin, a hairdresser, testified that Sarah told her on a separate occasion that Stephen killed Jeff by stabbing him in the back.

Jeff was screaming. And Steve was screaming at Sarah to put a pillow over Jeff's mouth. She said there was blood everywhere, even on the ceiling. What a horrific scene. Yeah, but here again, you know, you have Sarah who's, I don't know what it was. Gibbs. It was almost like she had all this inside and just couldn't keep it to herself. Yeah. She had to unload on, you know, some people in her life. She had to get it out. Sophie overheard Sarah refer to hands in Epping Forge's, which authorities believed to be

Jeffrey's missing hands. Jeffrey's former boss, John Moody, testified that Jeffrey was trying to help Stephen and Sarah by giving them a place to live. But he was. was unhappy with this living arrangement. Then we've talked about that, right? I think he was trying to help them out at first, but quickly realized they were trying to take advantage of it. Yeah, well, they weren't paying them and they were eating all his food. What was this quote?

They're eating me out of house and home. Yeah. Jeffrey was uncomfortable going home because they were always there. He didn't want to put food in the cabinets because they would eat it all. And I'm sure he was probably thinking, if I don't put food here, maybe eventually they will leave to go get food. Maybe. Now, most people listening probably had a roommate or have a roommate now or had one at some point in their life. You know, it's not easy living with roommates sometimes.

It's a communal situation. You know, are you in the camp where you're labeling all your food? or is everybody sharing? Yeah. It can be tough. Sure. When one or more people don't kind of hold up their end of the bargain. You come home from a long day at work and open your fridge,

you get your leftovers that you've been thinking about all day and they're not there. And you turn around and look on the couch and see, oh, what's his name? Eating your leftovers. Eating your half, second half of your burrito? Yeah. PC Stewart Tillotson testified. that he and a colleague went to the flat on March 16th in response to a missing person report. No one answered so they forced their way inside.

They checked every room and found no traces of blood. They found Jeffrey's passport on the table and other documents belonging to Stephen and Sarah. So we have described that this was a very bloody scene. I can only think Gibbs that they must have done a pretty good job of, you know, getting rid of, you know, getting rid of the visible blood. Yeah. Now, we know they found blood under the carpet, in the bathroom, but this is probably a cursory walk through.

Exactly. It's not a forensic, you know, examination. A statement from Jeffrey's brother John was read in court describing how he went to Jeffrey's apartment on March 28th. And a woman answered the door. He had never seen her before. And he got the impression that she didn't want to. want to speak to him. She said Jeffrey hadn't collected rent in a while and he took all his property

with him. She insisted she didn't know where he was. And I can imagine that, you know, if Sarah opens the door and Jeffrey's brother is standing there, that's not a conversation that she's going to want to have. No, not at all. She's going to want to try to get rid of him as quickly as possible. After three weeks of trial, Stephen Marshall surprised the court by pleading guilty. to murder on January 29th, 2010. Well, that is a surprise. It is because, you know, we said it, right? He denied committing the murder.

Now, he admitted to dismembering, disposing, all of that, but he was adamant, right? Sarah did this. But it just doesn't seem like with all of the things we've talked about that the testimony back that up. Just the stuff that Sarah told her friends alone. Yeah. On February 1st, 2010, Stephen Marshall was jailed for life with a minimum term of 36 years.

His attorney, Peter Doyle, also submitted Stephen's confession to dismembering the bodies of four men while working as a bouncer for the Adams family from 1995 to 1998. In each incident, the men were killed early. in the day and brought to the club at night. According to Doyle, Stephen thought it was sensible

not to ask questions. After the dismemberment, the bodies were taken by others and brought to Epping Forest in northeast London, where they were buried. So, I mean, just based on that, it does make it seem as though this is a guy who had some experience, right, with dismembering bodies. was this is I'll do the prison time, but I want everything on record so I can't be charged down the road with anything else. Yeah, I don't know.

I don't know why he confessed to that. On this day, Sarah Bush also pleaded guilty to perverting the course of justice. She was acquitted of murder. She admitted that she was with Stephen when he disposed of Jeffrey's head and admitted to mislead. leading the police and Jeffrey's friends by saying he had upped and left, all while stealing his

money. Her attorney said she acted under pressure because she was afraid of becoming the next victim. She was sentenced to three years and nine months. She received a lenient sentence because she'd had a hard life. According to the Guardian, Sarah spent most of her childhood in foster care. Before she started doing sex work, she gave birth to her first baby. a few days after she turned 15. Her baby died when she was just 10 years old. During the hearing, the judge said that Stephen committed the murder in a muddled and no doubt drug befuddled state

as Jeffrey was sleeping in the house. The judge told Sarah, you were well aware of what Stephen Marshall had done. You took advantage of Mr. Howland life. And then after his death, you used his money. I think she got off light. Yeah. Yeah, I think she got off a little light too. Now, I do believe that Stephen committed the murder. But, you know, even from Sarah's own mouth, she held something over Stephen's face, right? After he was stabbed. I think she even said she participated in some of the dismemberment. But did she do so because she was scared for her life? And that's a question.

that frankly I can't answer. I think that's what she put forward. And I can see how you could be afraid for your life with somebody like that. I'm actually surprised that he didn't try to take her out. Well, let's not forget. This is a guy who would not let her use the H and her name. Well, that's true. So I don't think we can discount, you know, his controlling nature and maybe give the benefit of the doubt that she was fearful. If he was able to do this, what could he do to her? Yeah. Now, that could be the truth or that could be a way for her to get a more lenient sentence. I don't know. After sentencing, it was announced that the police would question Stephen about the four additional victims. Investigators plan to review cold cases involving missing people

and body parts found over the past 15 years. In March 2010, police announced that Stephen had refused to cooperate and was not answering their questions about additional bodies. So far, it doesn't seem like these cases have been resolved. Well, maybe he didn't want to go against the Adams family. Or maybe he had killed a lot more people earlier on. That's true, too. And he was using this whole, well, I was just, you know,

in charge of the dismemberment part, when in fact, he could be a serial killer for all we know. Stephen Marshall and Sarah Bush saw Jeffrey Howe as an easy victim. They likely assumed it would take a while for someone to notice. He was missing because he wasn't married, he didn't have any children, and they likely thought his remains would go unidentified.

However, Jeffrey had friends and family. who checked it on him regularly, and Sarah and Stephen left behind a trail of evidence that clearly pointed to their involvement in the murder and their theft afterwards. And I do think all of that is true, right? I think they saw him as an easy mark. And I think they went to great lengths, right, with the dismemberment, making sure his hands weren't found, taking off the guy's face. Yeah. I mean, that's a whole other level. For what? A free place to stay and using some of his money. This guy wasn't a multimillionaire, but using his checking account to buy cocaine and

some things on the internet. What were you going to get? Maybe a few months before you had to pick up and go anyway. But again, how clearly are you thinking? Especially, you know, in the case of Stephen, if he was really just kind of coked up or doing drugs all the time, he probably wasn't thinking all that clearly. No. As we wrap this one up, Gives, it is pretty sad, you know, when you think about Jeffrey,

trying to help this guy out who he thought of as a friend, this guy and his girlfriend, and them just taking advantage of him in the worst way imaginable, ultimately killing him so that they could live rent free in his house and kind of use his money to buy him. thing. Yeah, it's shameful. I mean, she's out, right?

I mean, Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She's definitely out. Yeah.

And given the fact that how we know things work over there compared to here, he got life minimum of 36 years, but even some of their minimums aren't really minimum. Yeah. So he could be out as well. So I don't know. I didn't see where he was out.

Most likely he's not yet. but he's going to have a life, right, outside of prison. Yeah, as long as he doesn't do anything to put him back in. Yeah, at some point. But I want to go back to the fact that this guy, he could have a lot more murders under his belt. Could have. But the one thing we know is there's no incentive for him to disclose that.

No. But wouldn't it, and couldn't you say if you can dismember a body, it's probably not that much more difficult for that individual to kill the person. You mean going back to the bodies before Jeffrey Howl? Yeah. Yeah, I would say so. And maybe more will come out on that. I don't know.

But that's it for our episode on Stephen Marshall. We got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Yeah, see them. Hey, Mike. It's Perry calling from Grand Junction, Colorado. I'm listening to the Dale Bruner case. Not so fun fact, if you look at Colorado crime statistics in the 2000s, well after the 2000s, you see an abrupt jump in the number of violent felonies in 2016.

And that is because 2016 is the year that we finally made manual strangulation a felony. Now, it only happens typically to women who are being abused by a domestic partner. So we still don't care that much. It's a class four felony. Attempted murder is a class two felony. I don't know when the last time is it other. You put your hands around someone's neck and choke them until they stopped breathing a little bit. But to me, that seems pretty much like attempted murder.

But anywho, I think this is actually one of the cases that prompted the legislature to make that change. Hopefully, we'll actually get a little bit more reasonable change in the future. And if you choke a person to unconsciousness, it is in fact attempted murder. But, you know, it only happens to women at the hands of their domestic partners. So probably not. But anyway, thanks for doing what you do. Stay safe and keep your own time kicking. Okay, that is a little shocking.

I've got to be honest with you that, you know, we're not talking 1942. No. This is not that long ago that they just changed that. But hey, you know, I love this country. I know you do. But we haven't always made the best decisions. I'll just leave it at that, right? Uh, the, the country as a whole state by state, you can look at all kinds of different decisions, uh, you know, do we learn? Yeah, sometimes. Do we do better? Yeah, sometimes. Can we always do better? Yeah, definitely. Always.

Hi, Mike and Gibby. This is Anna calling from Gloucester, Massachusetts. Um, I have been listening to your podcast now for probably about six months. I am up to the very beginning of 2023. It was interesting to relive COVID through you. I'm calling specifically about something that you often say, and that is that the jury knows more than you do. And I actually served on a jury for an attempted murder case last summer and was struck by how much the jury doesn't hear because of all of the rules of evidence, hearsay, things like that that go into.

to putting a case on trial, so much so that after the trial was over and we found the person not guilty. I followed up with a police detective and was able to learn about all of the things that we didn't learn. And obviously, you need to protect the defendant's rights, but I just thought it would be an interesting thing to let you know that the jury doesn't always know more than the public knows. So thank you so much for all that you do.

keep me company. Keep your own time ticking. Yeah, it's a great point. I served on a jury years ago where we found a guy guilty. But even then later on, the prosecutor came in to talk to the jury and was able to tell us like all kinds of really bad things that we weren't allowed to hear during the trial. Yeah. I guess when I say that, I mean it about the things that are presented in court. Okay. You know what I'm? saying whatever's present in court, the jury is seeing it firsthand, hearing it firsthand. We don't have, we don't get to hear and see everything. That's true.

That they do. I've never had to serve on a jury. I've been in front of a jury. Hmm. Yeah. It's much different. It is. But it's a great point that she's making.

And we appreciate the voicemails as always. All right, buddy, that is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.