True Crime All The Time - Stephen Reitz

Episode Date: February 10, 2025

Stephen Reitz invoked a sleepwalking defense after he was charged with killing a woman during a weekend getaway. He claimed he woke up from a dream that he was fighting off an intruder and discovered her body. Investigators doubted his story, especially when they uncovered evidence about his tumultuous relationship with the victim. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Stephen Reitz. Could a person really commit a savage murder during a sleepwalking incident, or is it a convenient way to explain a cold-blooded murder? That is what a jury was tasked with deciding in the case of Stephen Reitz. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 421 of the true crime all the time podcast i'm mike ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime mike gibson give me how are you hey i'm doing good how about you i'm doing great you know you and i just talked on our patreon about the crazy weather patterns we're having here in ohio and i'm sure people are in in other parts of the country as well we also talked about the what appears to be a proliferation of just very good television shows. Oh yeah. On right now. There is.

Or have just wrapped up or, you know, there's so many streaming services out that there seems to be no shortage of good TV right now. Working on my own TV. I'm doing a... Like TV set or TV show? Oh, TV show. Okay. Are you building your own television?

I'm going to rewrite the, uh, all the, uh, Bar-Barnaby Jones series. Okay. I feel like that would... Bring it up the date. Yeah, I feel like that would be a hit in 2025. Yeah. Barty B.

Jones, Jr. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Ann Barbara. Hey, Ann. Jennifer Rubin. What's up, Jennifer? Andy from Iowa. Hey, thanks, Andy.

Emily Lucas. What's going on, Emily? Stephanie King. Hi, Stephanie. Phyllis Franklin Nunley. Thanks, Phyllis Franklin. Aaron DeWall. What are you doing, Aaron?

Christopher Schimel. Hey Christopher. And last but not least, Leslie Anton. Oh, there's Leslie. And then if we go back into the vault, this week we selected Jessica Feeney. Feeney in the house. Yeah, appreciate the new support, to continued support.

So right now on True Crime All the Time Unsolved, we have out an episode, which is part two on the Zodiac Killer. We talk about the Zodiac. last confirmed murder, more of the killer's correspondence, and some additional suspected zodiac cases. Yeah, it's good stuff. Yeah. And when we do part three, we're going to have a special guest. We are. None other than Morf himself will come on to give his take. So that's already set in stone. A lot of people have asked for it. So we're making it happen. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time.

I am ready. We're talking about Stephen Wright's. Stephen Wrights invoked a sleepwalking defense. After he was charged with killing a woman during a weekend getaway, he claimed that he woke up from a dream, that he was fighting off an intruder and then discovered her body. Investigators doubted his story, especially when they started to uncover some incriminating evidence. Are you a person who remembers a lot of their dreams?

No. Me neither. It's very rare that I remember my dream. Yeah. My wife almost every night has a dream in which I am doing something that ticks her off and that carries over to the next day and she is somehow mad for what I have done in the dream. Of course. because you betrayed her in that dream.

I did. I did something bad. I do have this recurring dream that you keep wanting to buy me dinner every time I'm over here. And I believe that dream. That dream comes true every week. Yeah. It's a good dream. 42-year-old Eva Marie Weinferdner was a jewelry artist from Coronado, California. Eva's niece, Linnell Pirou told Dayline,

Eva was always living like she was 22. Carefree, very young for her age. She was fun. She was generous and she'd light up a room. She's the person you call. And no matter what, you always feel better for what she had to say. And I would say, you know, everyone needs someone like that in their life. Everybody needs it.

Well, hopefully, maybe it's one of your parents. It's an aunt. It's an uncle. Maybe it's just a really good friend. but someone who you know when you call them up on the phone, you're going to feel better after the conversation. Yeah, that's so important, right? I mean, someone that can lift you up, make you feel better than you did when before you called.

Yeah. Eva was married twice. She worked as a flight attendant for years and her husband, Carl, was a pilot. Fellow flight attendant April Bozart told Dayline that people were drawn to Eva. She was welcoming and generous towards everyone. She was also a restless person and couldn't stand boredom. Yeah. We all know somebody like that.

Yeah. I live with one. I know. I's getting ready to say there's one upstairs. Yeah. My wife is so restless in that she always has to be doing something. Now, me, I can, I can just be. But she just can't do that.

Yeah. It was difficult for Eva to settle down after she quit her flight attendant job. April recalled, I think she was looking for excitement in other ways. It was almost like, let me stir the pot a little. So this is a person who's described as restless and then quits her flight attendant job kind of makes sense that she was probably struggling. She's not, you know, finding the excitement. that she had previously.

She's not going to sit on the couch and just watch TV or play games or whatever, right? She wants to do something. She wants to keep busy. By 2001, Eva was separated from her husband. In January of that year, she started seeing 25-year-old Stephen Wrights. According to Dateline, Stephen had several jobs, including part-time work as a commercial fisherman. And I know that's something that you've done. before, you were in fact the inspiration for the Gorton's fishermen.

Well, that is all true. I was the head hooker on the boat. Is that what they called it? The head hooker? Yeah. I doubt it. But you said it was such confidence that it made it sound like you knew what you were talking about.

Hey, we did have a, and do have a group of listeners that play the podcast on their boat. Oh, yeah, who are commercial fishermen. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and they all listen together. Yeah. Eva met Stephen when he came over to hang out with her son. She called her niece Linnell that same day and said she met a nice, good-looking guy. Despite their 17-year age gap, Stephen and Eva were attracted to each other and quickly developed a romantic relationship that lasted about 10 months.

That's when somebody really says, you know, hey, you're a man. mom is really hot. They took it to the next level. Well, it did seem strange to me, right, that he's coming over to see her son and then the next thing you know, they're attracted to each other and they're involved in a relationship. Eva's friend April Bozar, hope that she would reconcile with her husband. But then she learned about the affair with Stephen. According to April, Stephen was available to do whatever Eva wanted to do because he didn't work regularly. So they went on a lot of trips together. She also said that Stephen was a trophy diva because he was so much younger.

She told her friend to be cautious. Trophy boyfriend. You're kind of like a trophy husband. Hardly. But you know the fact of the matter is men have been doing this for many, many years. Oh, absolutely. So, you know, you can't look at a woman doing it and say, oh my gosh, what is she doing? Yeah. I mean, I'm sure some of her friends probably called her a cougar.

Maybe. Yeah. Now, Stephen was aware. Eva was married, but knew that it was a quote on again, off again, marriage. Linnell Piro said that Eva did love her husband and wanted to reconcile, but the affair continued. It was hard for Eva to stay away from Stephen. So there was attraction there, no doubt. And when you are supremely attracted to someone gives, it can be hard to stay away from them, even when you know deep down.

It's not really a good situation for you. Yeah. And I would say, if you're trying to reconcile with your partner, continuing the affair is not going to be in the best interest of that goal. You either commit or you don't. Eva was open with a few people about the affair, but she did keep the full extent of the relationship secret. Eva's relatives became concerned about her safety

when they saw bruises on her body and bite marks on her legs. She said the bruises were caused by a combination of her own clumsiness and Stephen being rough during sex. Okay. Hey, people are into all kinds of things. not going to go into all of it. Well, definitely a way to get some bumps and bruises. You know, can people bite?

Can people do things like that? Yes. But this would not be the first time. And in fact, it's happened so many times over the years where women have felt as though they needed to make up some excuse for why they were bruised up or, you know, had a black eye or, or, you know, right you know whatever when it turned out they were being physically abused but they weren't comfortable revealing that fact no no why is that probably because they felt like nothing was going to happen

and if they told on their abuser that was going to come back on them i think a lot of them just feel like they have so little control yeah almost like a helpless feel yeah eva told her niece El Pira and her friend Alana Bass that one bruise on her thought was caused by Stephen biting her. She also told her niece that once while they were watching TV, Stephen grabbed her by the throat and said, stop fucking looking at me like that. And this comes directly from the people versus rights. Okay. Now, this seems to me to be a far cry from being a little rough during sex. This is a pretty violent act.

Yeah, I think the playfulness went out the window. When you're grabbing your partner by the throat, you're cursing at them for what? Looking at you? Eva told her other niece, Annette Mason, that she once woke up to Stephen on top of her choking her. He thought there was an intruder in the house. Eva admitted she was afraid of Stephen

because of this incident. That would freak me out if you wake up and your partners on top of you, choking you. The part where I was a little confused was that he thought there was an intruder in the house. So does that mean he thought Eva was the intruder? First of all, what intruder climbs into bed with you and you're just going to roll over on that person and start choking them? I'm not saying it's a lie, but it's a tough thing to believe. It's a hard sell. Yeah, it is a hard sell.

She also told a friend and her son that she was afraid of him. So she told a number of people that she was afraid of Stephen writes. Eva confided in her friend, Alana, that she knew Stephen would kill her if she stayed with him. But she couldn't leave because she said he was like. like a drug to her. So strange to hear that. It is, but I know it happens. You know, people are in toxic relationships.

Yeah. Relationships that really are not good for either party. But it's like they can't stay away from each other. They're so attracted to each other that the toxicity of the relationship, the bad things that are happening, it's like they don't. outweigh the attraction. Yeah. It's really sad because you know they know better. Well, I think by and large, most people know when a situation is bad for them. But by the same token, people know smoking is bad for you. Sure. People know that certain drugs are bad for you. They can kill you. It doesn't keep them from doing it. No, no. Eva went to a psychic at one point

and didn't tell the woman anything about her life. The psychic told her she was in a relationship with the younger man who was not her husband and warned her if you don't break it off, he will kill you. How eerie is that? Well, it's very eerie if it's true. You and I have talked about psychics before. I know some people really believe in psychics, some not so much. Yeah.

I do believe there are charlatans, people who ask enough questions, get enough general information to make some predictions. But if this really went down the way that it was painted, gave no information and this psychic just comes out with this, okay. Yeah. That's pretty scary. And it will turn out to be pretty prophetic. on April 18, 2001. Stephen showed up to Eva's apartment. He was upset and she asked him to leave.

They exchanged words as he left. Sometime later, she saw him on her third floor balcony. He broke the window and entered her apartment with a knife. He threatened Eva, saying, I'm going to cut a man. I'm going to gut him like a fish. And I'm going to name him. him, Eva.

Okay. That's kind of strange. I mean, this is some Alfred Hitchcock shit here that we're dealing with. This is Norman Bates sitting in the rocking chair wearing his mother's night dress. But you have to be scared now. I mean, he's just telling you, I'm going to go gut somebody and I'm going to pretend that it's you. Yeah, and we already know she was scared, but if you weren't scared before, this would scare the, you know what out of him. Eva ran out of the apartment and asked a security guard to call the police.

She told her responding officer she was in a relationship with Stephen and there had been two prior domestic incidents. She also called her estranged husband Carl and told him what happened. Stephen fled and the police were still looking for him when she called. So obviously she's very freaked out because she makes this call to her estranged husband. and that couldn't have been an easy call. No. But it shows you, I think, how scared she was.

She had to be to make that call. Because she has to tell him, right? Basically, hey, this 25-year-old guy that I'm having sex with is threatening me. And as the husband, you're like, oh, okay. I don't want anything to happen to my wife. Well, at the same time, I am not happy that this 25-year-old is. is, you know, in the rumpus room with your wife? With my wife.

And wouldn't you be also like, hey, I thought we were working on our relationship here. Well, yeah, I don't know what the dynamic was there. Yeah. So I don't know if they were talking about getting back together or what. Stephen was arrested that same evening for driving under the influence. Eva quickly bailed him out and the relationship continued. That blows my mind, but we know that happens. It does happen.

But is it because she's so attracted to him, right? She made that statement, he was like a drug to her. She just couldn't quit him, regardless of what was going on, the threats, the fear. She just couldn't give him up. I don't know. I don't know what else it could have been. And I'm sure he had a way of being persuasive, like, hey, baby. I didn't mean to do all that.

Oh yeah. You know, he did. That would never happen again. You know, the things that people say. Eva moved back in with her husband at an unspecified date to attempt to repair their marriage. And to me, Gibbs, this kind of seems like a turning point, right? There's no doubt a relationship between her and Stephen is toxic. It makes me think that she realized it, hey, I can't keep seeing this.

guy, he's bad for me, he's going to kill me. Right. I'm going to try to get back with my husband. And her husband obviously agreed and said, come on, move back in. On September 28, 2001, Eva called her friend April, who was about to have a baby and said she would like to come visit. On Sunday the 30th, April agreed to pick her up. Eva's husband had also invited her on a trip to Catalina Island when he returned from a flight

the following week. she accepted because she wanted to repair their marriage. Catalina. What's your first thought when you hear the word Catalina? The Catalina wine mixer? Yeah. From stepbrothers? Yes.

I'll never think of Catalina the same anymore. No, that's all I can think about. Well, it seems like she's trying to make an effort. Yeah, you would think so. But she also told him that she was going to Catalina Island that weekend with a friend. but she was really going with Stephen. Stephen would claim the last minute trip was Eva's idea. She made the reservations and purchased ferry tickets.

So again, she's trying to reconcile with her husband, but is the temptation of Stephen just too much for her, you know, as she described it, like a drug to her, and she just couldn't say no. It appears so. April never heard from Eva. on September 30th, which she thought was unusual. At 1 a.m. on October 1st, 2001, Stephen called his parents and said, he might have killed

even. His father called the police. Okay. Now, parents get a lot of strange phone calls from their kids. Yeah. I've received quite a few that left me kind of dazed and confused, but not once has either of my daughters called me and said, you know what, I think I might have just killed somebody. Right. I don't know how you would handle that. It's going to be a tough conversation.

It is. In October 2001, L.A. County Sheriff's Detective Richard Tomlin and his partner, Ken Gallatin, took a helicopter to Catalina Island in the early morning hours. This was the first murder on the island in two decades. Wow. So you're talking 20 years. Long time. They, heard that Stephen had gone to the fire station to report that Eva was injured and he may have killed her. Paramedics went to their hotel, but it was too late. Eva's body was still in the hotel room. Her jaw was broken in three places. She suffered a skull fracture, a dislocated shoulder, and a broken elbow and wrist. She was stabbed multiple times in the neck near her spinal column. This is brutal.

No, it sounds absolutely brutal. I've never had a broken jaw. I assume it's extremely painful and hard to eat afterwards. But her jaw was broken in three different places. I mean, to say to his dad and to the paramedics, I might have killed her. How do you not know? You've definitely killed her. Well, I also thought it was strange that he went to the fire station.

Right. But a small pocket knife was found near her body and a large flower pot was shattered by her head. Shards of the pottery were embedded in her scalp. Detectives wondered how no one heard the attack, which had to have lasted, you know, several minutes. Who knows how long it took. But obviously they must have combed neighbors and nobody heard anything. Stephen was cooperative and agreed to speak to the police. He said they came to Catalina Island to party.

There was a half-empty bottle of tequila on a table, as well as several empty beer bottles and a $5 bill rolled up with cocaine residue. There were cards on the table and a scorebook with the results of several games of gin rummy. And that sounds like a gibby Saturday night, if I've ever heard one. A little gin rummy? No, tequila, Coke, and gin rummy. Hey, don't leave the beer out.

Oh, and some beer. According to Dateline, Stephen said, I woke up looking at Eva's body on the ground. He said he dreamed about being in a conflict. When asked what the conflict was about, he said, you know, I think it could have been about an intruder or something. I'm thinking, I knew I felt threatened for some reason, but it had nothing to do with Eva.

I wasn't dreaming about Eva. According to Detective Richard Tomlin, Stephen said he was sitting on the bed and Eva was alive and moaning. He saw the wounds at her neck. Stephen said in his interview, it began to occur to me that I was responsible for that. Because of the wounds, that was what I used to do shark fishing. Okay. Wow. He explained that at his commercial fishing job, they killed sharks by severing the spinal cord, he thought he must have done the same to Eva when he thought she was an intruder.

And he claimed that he just had vague flashes of memory and no memories of the actual attack. He said, I see bits and flashes, but I don't, you know, I really, I mean, it's hard to believe. but I also have other roommates that have watched me sleep or. So he's bringing in the sleepwalk. Yeah, he revealed that he experienced sleepwalking episodes since childhood and must have killed Eva during one of these episodes. So I want to take a step back for a minute, you know, this notion that you're dreaming about an intruder.

Could that happen? Yeah, I would say the answer is yes. Of course. But this story, it jumps out at me for a number of reasons. You know, first of all, like I said, you know, the intruders laying in bed with you, not on top of you fighting you. But then it's like he reverts to his commercial fishing experience in trying to sever the spinal cord. Because he thinks it's a shark or?

I don't know. Now, I've done some strange things after being woken up. Yeah. My youngest who doesn't shy away from telling anyone this story loves to talk about the time that she came in to wake me up because she said it was time to go to school and I drove her to school. And apparently I took a wild swing at her when she was a little kid. She was pretty small. And I threw a haymaker and she backed up just in time. I don't know why I got scared or whatever it was.

Oh, thank goodness you missed. Yeah, yeah, that would not have gone over well. So Stephen begins talking about his sleepwalking episodes, going all the way back to childhood. At one point, he said, I woke up and I began to get conscious of the situation. And I realized it was Eve on the ground. And I looked around and I couldn't believe it was her. And I think I might have killed Eva in my sleep. Well, either you did or you didn't.

Yeah, I think that's pretty fair to say. I don't think he's disputing the fact that he killed her. The question is, was he aware of what he was doing? Or did this happen during some type of dreamlike slash sleepwalking state? He insisted he and Eva had a loving relationship and did not. having any prior physical altercations with her. He did admit that he once intentionally bumped into a female police officer who arrested him for drunk driving.

Bumped into her cruiser? It just said bumped in to her. I almost like assault on the police officer that he just bumped her. But why would you do? Oh, hey, officer, I just wanted to get your attention. Maybe we can go out sometime. It's not going to go over well. No.

Stephen's parents came to the sheriff station and confirmed. He had a history of sleepwalking. They added that he was treated for bipolar disorder. And, you know, we were talking about stepbrothers. It's hard not to bring in the fact that they were sleepwalkers. They were. And they were doing all kinds of nutty stuff while sleepwalking. Have you ever known anybody that did sleepwalking?

No. No. No. Thankfully. Because I know it does happen and it can be a scary thing, especially for parents who have a child who sleepwalks. Stephen said he forgot his medication and Eva had given him her prescription anxiety medication. Okay. Something that you're not supposed to do that probably everyone listening has done at some point in the past. given some of their medication to a loved one, a family member, something like that. So we start this recording every week. You know, there are pills out. What do you need? What do you got?

You know, I'll give you, I'll give you two of these blue things for one of those things over there. I don't need any of your blue pills. I was saying me taken from you. For fun. At the end of his interview, Stephen asked if he could go home with his parents. But he was told that he was under arrest for murder. Can I go home with my parents now? Sounds like a little kid.

He does. He's 25 years old. Yeah. And you killed a woman in your bed. No, you're not going home. Now, I get it. You have this story about dreaming and sleepwalking and thinking she was an intruder. But that story alone, it's not like the police are going to be like,

oh, okay. Well, now that you've told us that, well, obviously, yeah, just go on home. No, it doesn't work that way. So this was a pretty unique case, right? Because it involved legal and medical issues. If Stephen was truly sleepwalking, then he was unconscious and therefore not criminally responsible. And this was a possibility that really horrified Eva's family. That would be really hard to comprehend. I think it would too, you know, any parent whose son or daughter was killed, and they know who did it. But this possibility is floating around that this person's not going to pay for what they did because they're going to be found not criminally responsible. But if you're that person and that family of the, you know, Stephen, you're hoping that that is the case, right?

that someone can prove that, look, he was asleep. He didn't know what he did, so you can't hold him guilty. Yeah. Several experts, including a world-recognized sleep disorder expert from Stanford, joined the case. Stephen went to a clinic for a sleep study. His test revealed he had a propensity to sleep warm and suffered from night terrors. This was caught on camera during the study.

Have you or do you know anybody that ever had night terrors? I've never had night terrors. No. I don't know anybody that's had any of the things that we normally talk about. Right. To be honest with you. But, you know, this is an interesting part of the case because, okay, it's one thing for him to come up with this excuse for why this happened. it's another thing to have doctors start to kind of see that he did have some of the things that he was saying now doesn't mean necessarily that this is the way it went down but it is in line at least with

some of the things that he said according to sleep experts night terrors can develop into sleepwalking episodes, an individual may talk in their sleep, walk, or perform other behaviors. And they have no recollection when they wake up. If someone with a history of sleepwalking uses drugs or alcohol, the chances of a sleepwalking episode are higher. Experts determine that Stevens' bipolar disorder made him more susceptible to violent behavior during a sleepwalking episode. And we know that he drank that night, and we know that he took some medication that night. I think he also had some coke that night. He had some coke that night.

The case was transferred to DA Dinko, Bozinoj, who specialized in trials involving mental defenses. Bozhenich learned about an earlier case from Toronto, Canada. On May 24, 1987, 23-year-old Kenneth Parks, fell asleep in front of his TV. Around 2 a.m., he got up. put on his coat and drove 14 miles to his in-laws home, passing through major intersections. He beat his father-in-law nearly to death, then beat and stabbed his mother-in-law to death. He then drove back home.

He realized what he had done and turned himself in, but claimed to have no memory of the attack. See, for me, that blows my mind, that somebody could say they were asleep, somehow, left their house, got in a car drove across town and did this and turned around and came back without knowing what happened. And drove through intersections and all of that. Yeah. So Kenneth's case was investigated by psychiatrist R.H. Billings, who determined Kenneth had no history of psychosis when another patient spoke to Dr. Billings about sleepwalking. He had a light bulb moment.

Kenneth underwent a series of sleep tests and exam. He experienced periods of awakening from deep sleep and had a strong propensity to sleepwalk. Experts discovered a family history of sleepwalking. Kenneth went to trial for first degree murder and invoked a sleepwalking defense to the surprise of many. He was found not guilty. And obviously we're not going, you know, very in depth into this case of Stephen Parks, but it seems to me Gibbs that the jury must have felt that he was not responsible for what he had done.

I think it's just so bizarre. It's hard to believe, but we know people sleepwalk. We know people do things in their sleep that they don't recall. Just for me, for this one, it's just. It's tough, right? Now, if you told me that someone got up, you know, went to the kitchen, got some milk and cookies, and left it all out, went back to bed, got up the next morning, didn't remember it. Okay, I get that.

But to get in your, get dressed, get in your car, be able to drive. Yeah. And then commit these heinous acts. You know, that's, that's pretty tough. So prosecutors knew there was a lot at stake in Stevens case because he claimed he was asleep. There appeared to be no motive. So investigators continued.

digging into his affair with Eva to find one. They knew about the prior incidents of violent and threatening behavior, and they knew Eva was afraid of him. And I thought it was very strange for Stephen to tell investigators in his interview that there weren't these earlier incidents of violence because they were pretty well documented, I think. Yeah. Why lie about it?

It's just going to come back to hurt you. They questioned why even. invited Stephen on a last-minute trip to Catalina Island just before she was going to try to revive her marriage. Detective Ken Gallatin had a theory about what happened that night. He told Dayline, I think Eva was breaking it off, telling him that this was their last time together. He couldn't handle it. If he couldn't have her, no one could. And, you know, that probably started to fight and he ended up killing her. Gives,

how many times have we heard that statement? If he couldn't have her, no one could. We hear it a lot, and unfortunately, it is the root of a lot of violent acts including murders. You know,

I was actually watching a new OJ thing that they just came out with on Netflix. Yeah, I've seen some of that. Yeah. It was pretty good. There was nothing in there that was groundbreaking or anything like that.

But there was a part of it where someone was kind of theorizing the motives for OJ if he did it, as most people think he did. And it was the same exact thing. You know, if he couldn't have Nicole, then no one else could. And he kind of made those claims, didn't he? That he didn't want her to be with anybody else? Yeah, I don't know how he phrased it. Yeah.

But yeah, he was not happy that she was with other people. He allegedly, you know, watched her while she was being intimate with other people. It took nearly three years to go to trial. By June 2004, prosecutor Dinko Bozhenich had to retire due to a heart attack. The case was transferred to Deputy DA Ken Lamb. Lamb argued that if Stephen was conscious during the attack, he was guilty of murder. The evidence that the crime scene showed he made a series of complex decisions, which suggested he was aware of what he was doing. Couldn't you argue that the person in Toronto had a lot of difficult decisions to make driving across town?

Yeah, I would call that pretty complex decisions if you're technically asleep. navigating traffic, navigating intersections. Some of us can't do that while we're awake. That's true. The prosecution argued that Stephen and Eva got into an argument that night, which prompted him to walk outside and pick up the flower pot. The door locked behind him. So Stephen knocked until Eva opened it,

at which point he hit her in the head with the flower pot and attacked her. Detective Richard Tomlin testified about, Stephen's history with Eva, including the incident where he broke into her apartment and how relatives and friends saw bruises and bite marks on her body. The defense argued that Stephen killed Eva during a sleepwalking episode, meaning he couldn't have known what he was doing. They also emphasized his history of mental illness and the possibility that someone could be capable of committing a violent crime in their sleep. One of his defense attorneys noted that there was no reason for Stephen to be angry with

Eva that night. Well, if they were breaking up, why wouldn't he have been angry? Well, yeah, if the prosecution's assertion is true that she was telling him, this was it. I'm breaking it off. I'm getting back with my husband. Then that would mean there was a reason for him to be angry with her, potentially. During his police interview, Stephen said he had no memory of the attack. But at trial, he testified he had flashbacks of certain details, according to people versus rights.

He remembered being in an all-out struggle with a male intruder throwing down the flower pot and feeling threatened. You think if you're on the jury, it's hard to believe anything that's going to be said at this point because you would feel like they're going to say what they have. have to to make it sound believable. I think you could say that about a lot of cases. Well, yeah. But, I mean, he really has to sell the sleepwalking thing. Well, he does. And maybe, you know, it comes down to jury members.

Do they know someone who sleepwalks? Have they seen them do strange things? Or to some of them, is this so far fetch that they're just not going to be able to believe it? Also, during his police interviews, Stephen said when he became aware of Eva, he saw the knife wounds in her neck, which, as we said earlier, were similar to the way commercial fishermen kill sharks.

He assumed he caused those wounds. Now, he didn't deny breaking into Eva's apartment and admitted he was responsible for the bruises on her body throughout their relationship. He acknowledged that sometimes he grabbed her too firmly while having sex, according to daylight, he said Eva went to a doctor to see why she bruised so easily. Yeah, some people do.

There are some people who bruise easily, yes. But when you're admitting that you are responsible for the bruises, you know, this kind of grabbed her too firmly during sex. Could it happen? Yes. Is it going to be tough for the jury to believe? Maybe. Stephen and his parents testified about his sleepwalking problem since childhood. Stephen would sometimes get out of bed, speak or yell during these episodes.

He often thought someone was after him and he needed to protect himself. He testified that sometimes his sleepwalking episodes were destructive. He once walked through a window in his sleep. This continued into adulthood. I mean, it's kind of scary when you think about it. You have to worry about waking. up, sleepwalking, not remembering anything that you did. I know it happens out there. But it's also important in this trial, right, for him to really drive home.

How long he's had this, how bad some of the episodes were, the fact that he sometimes felt as though he needed to protect himself. When Stephen was 11 or 12, he and his cousin were sleeping at his grandma's house. His cousin heard a scream coming from. from Stephen's room when he went to investigate. He saw that the ceiling fan had been pulled down. Stephen was standing there. Disoriented, he didn't remember what happened. Stephen once jumped or fell out of a second-story window

and claimed he had no idea what happened. He told his father he was sleepwalking. But his friends believed he was using meth. The old, I was sleepwalking, not meth this time, Dad. Well, this is, you know, something that's, It's pretty interesting. Yes. Could you have been a sleepwalker?

Absolutely. But could someone also use that as an excuse for other bad behavior? Yes. I would say the answer is yes. If I say this, then they won't be mad at me and I'll get a pass. Yeah. I mean, who wants their parents to know that they walked out of a second story window because they were high on meth?

Stephen's friend, Chris Pickford, testified that a few years earlier, He was sleeping in Stephen's apartment when Stephen woke up in the night and told Pickford, the devil was chasing him. I don't know about you, but I think I'd be looking for the closest holiday in. Yeah, I don't think I'd be staying the night there anymore. No, because I'm getting a real Amniville horror vibe. You know, you made the same claim when we were at that one crime con where we had to share the room that one night, you're like, it was sleep, cuddling.

I'm like, what? Is that the night where I said those aren't pillows? Yes. Yes. Yeah. I said, I think you were awake. You're just telling me you were asleep when you did that. I don't sleep walk.

I sleep spoon. Confirmed. Stephen told his acquaintance Luke Shocklin about an incident where he was stopped by a female police officer for running through a toll gate bridge. He threw himself into the officer's shoulder and explained that he did it because he knew he was bigger and more powerful. He also admitted that some kids once threw an egg at his car, and he drove after them, leaned out the window, and hit their car with a club-like device.

Okay. So why are these examples important? And to me, it's because he obviously wasn't sleepwalking, right, during some of these. So you can't explain those away with sleepwalking. does it really point to kind of a violent individual? It does. And how is the jury going to factor that in? Experts had determined that Stephen had a tendency towards violent outbursts,

which worsened as he got older. His substance abuse exacerbated his other problems. And that's pretty normal. And we know that he was using. He was using. He acknowledged that he acted, quote, quite bizarre during the April 18th, 2001 incident. He claimed he was agitated because he got into a physical fight with five people outside

a liquor store earlier that night. I wonder if that was a cocaine talking. Could have been. But again, you know, he's not sleepwalking. No. During this. Dr. Daniel Amen, a psychiatrist, conducted brain scans on Stephen in late 2003. he found that Stephen had decreased brain activity in three areas,

including the prefrontal cortex, which controls judgment, impulse control, organization, planning, and forethought. Okay, those all seem very important in everyday life.

The second area was his left temporal lobe, which controls memory, mood stability, and temper control. Low activity in the temper control. temporal lobe is associated with seizures, irritability, and aggression. Again, all these very important. You've been wanting me to do one of those scans for years.

I've been wanting you to take a lot of tests for a number of years, all of which you have balked at. According to People v. rights, Dr. Amen concluded Stephen had significant brain trauma that prevented him from having a normal life. The brain damage would have caused him to have problems with judgment, impulse control, planning, and forethought. He could not tell if Stephen was prone to sleepwalking. So this is kind of completely separate from the sleepwalking.

He's got some serious brain issues. Dr. William Pierce reviewed Stephen's family history and administered psychological tests. Dr. Pierce opined that Stephen suffered from sleepwalking and sleep tears, triggered by nighttime seizures. His diagnosis was consistent with Dr. Amon's findings of temporal lobe damage. During a temporal lobe seizure, a person is unconscious but can perform complex tests, like driving without being aware of what they're doing. Dr. Pierce said a person cannot plan reason.

or use judgment while unconscious. Dr. Cleet Kushita conducted an observation study on Stephen at a sleep clinic. Kushita was one of the most important witnesses for the defense. He's a neurologist who specializes in sleep disorders, a professor at Stanford, division chief and medical director of Stanford Sleep Medicine, and director of the Stanford Center for Human Sleep Research. Pretty important guy, sounds like. Yeah, pretty accomplished. I think it would be kind of hard to impeach his credentials on the stand. He's also president of the World Sleep Society, former president of the World Sleep Federation, former president of the American Academy of Sleep Medicine, and founding president of the California Sleep Society. I didn't know there were so many societies and federations solely dedicated to, to sleep. And not only was he the president of the world's sleep society, he was a member too.

How about that? During the sleep study, Stephen sat up, screamed and jumped out of bed. Dr. Kushita testified that Stephen's brainwaves indicated he was in the deepest stages of sleep when this occurred. He diagnosed Stephen with sleep terrors and other sleep disorders in thought Stephen could be capable of harming others while sleeping. That's a pretty important finding for the defense. Well, it is. And we just talked about a number of doctors who are all saying similar things. Some are talking about brain trauma.

Some are talking about sleepwalking, sleep tears, temporal lobe seizures, all of this, pointing to the fact that it was. possible that Stephen Wright could have done this and not really known what he was doing. You just wonder, you know, how powerful are these testimonies to the jury when they're coming from these doctors? Dr. Kashita testified outside the presence of the jury that he had twice seen subjects commit violent acts while sleeping. Other experts also concluded sleepwalkers are capable of violence.

while unconscious. He explained there are seven criteria for determining whether a person who committed a harmful act was truly sleepwalking, according to state versus rights. The criteria are, number one, whether there was a reason to suspect sleepwalking based on the perpetrator's history or based on a sleep study. Number two, whether the duration was compatible with the presumed diagnosis, i.e. whether the perpetrator had a sleepwalking problem at the time of the act. Number three, whether the conduct was seemingly senseless and without motivation. Four, whether immediately afterward the perpetrator was perplexed and horrified and made no attempt to conceal the act.

Five, whether there was amnesia for most of the events. Six, whether the act occurred during the first. third of sleep when most stage three or stage four sleep occurs. And number seven, whether there was prior sleep deprivation, which can trigger a sleep walking episode. Dr. Koshita believe Stephen met all seven criteria. And it sounded to me as I was reading through it that based on what we've heard, he probably did.

You know, if I was on this jury, I'd be leaning maybe a little differently now after hearing all this. Well, first of all, you have a very credentialed, well thought of doctor who is saying, hey, I believe he met all seven of these criteria. And if he did, then how can he be responsible? Yeah. And you could see how a jury might start to soak that in. Dr. Kashida further stated a person can perform complex acts while sleepwalking. He said he observed one patient, remove objects from a bedside table, and throw the objects at him.

One person got into a vehicle, started the ignition, and backed out of the driveway while asleep. Okay. I understand that that could happen. My question is, how do you let the person get that far if you're monitoring this? them in the sleep study. Okay, they got into the car. They started the car. They start to back out of the driveway.

At some point, don't you have to step in? Did you say, hey, hit that wake me button. Dr. Samuel George Benson, Jr., reviewed Stevens' history and the results of his test. Dr. Benson opined that Stevens suffered from bipolar disorder and a sleepwalking disorder with seizures caused by organic brain damage. He stated that people who suffer from partial complex seizures tend to be more violent than others, and a person who sleepwalks in connection with seizures can be dangerous to himself and others. So again, a lot of expert testimony for the defense as it relates to sleepwalking.

And whether or not Stephen Wright was a sleepwalker and their, for was unconscious while he committed this act. Well, if you can get into the jury's head and get any reasonable doubt going, you're ahead of the game. Now, the prosecutor moved to preclude Dr. Kashida and the other experts from testifying that a person is capable of killing another while sleepwalking because the opinion was not based on reliable or trustworthy information and was not generally accepted. in the scientific community as required by people versus Kelly. Just trying to think when you're sleepwalking, what can wake you up out of that?

Because I'm thinking if you're murdering somebody, attacking somebody, stabbing somebody, there's some screaming going on. There's some hitting coming back at you, I'm assuming. And do you just stay asleep during this? Like, it doesn't phase you at all? It's a good question. It's definitely a good question. but you can't blame the prosecution, right, from trying to get some of this stuff not heard by the jury.

And we even said earlier that Dr. Kashita testified outside of the jury about some of the things, specifically things that he had witnessed other people doing. The Kelly Fry standard requires a consensus in the scientific community. before testimony concerning a new and novel technique or methodology would be admissible. Dr. Kashida expressed the opinion that it is generally accepted in the scientific community that a person can commit a murder while sleepwalking, but that opinion was based entirely on criminal cases. The prosecution noted in absence of empirical data to support Kushita's assertions. and the court sided with the prosecution on this issue.

And I'm assuming this was a very pivotal part of the case. I think it had to be. You know, how does the court rule? And on this issue, they ruled in the prosecution's favor, which meant that a lot of the testimony by some of these defense experts, the jury would never hear. On June 24th, 2004, Stephen Wrights was convicted of first-degree murder. Defense attorney Theodore Vagana said about the trial as quoted by the L.A. Times,

it was the only defense we had because my client said he was unconscious. There was no other defense we could use because that is what really happened. We had the best doctors in the nation say that this could happen. Begana said the jury was too afraid to acquit Stephen, adding. they were scared to let him go free because of what the public would say. Boy, I think the public would be on both sides of that fence. Well, but let's face it. I think this might come up in a number of trials.

Are there times where a jury is afraid of what public opinion of them will be if they go a certain way, which may not align. with the majority of public opinion. And I would say that may happen. I think it probably has happened. But to hang everything on this one defense and being such a, I don't see, kind of like a new defense, right? You don't hear a lot about sleepwalking murders.

No, I mean, it's not super common. There have been a number of defenses centered around sleepwalking. But you said to hang it on this one defense. defense. What else could they do? Well, true. You know, the guy's covered in blood. It's not like he's saying he didn't do it. So they can't argue he didn't do it. They have to come up for a reason why he's not responsible for what he did. Several jurors told the LA time. They might have been convinced by the sleepwalking defense if Stephen had only thrown the flower pump. But the additional attack made it seem implausible. And I get that because I was thinking, well, would he wake up when he starts stabbing,

when he's. I mean, you mentioned hearing the screaming and being fought against, you know, again, we can only go by what the jury is saying. Juror Tom Mahoney said he was swayed by the testimony that Stephen had a history of violent behavior. So, you know, what if he has no history of history of violent behavior. Is the sleepwalking defense easier to digest for the jury? I think so. Maybe so. Juror Roel Salvador said the graphic photos of Eva's body also influenced their decision.

He said, you could do a few things sleepwalking, like the doctor said, but not all that. And I think that kind of goes back to what you were getting into. This was a very vicious, heinous attack that would have taken some time and at no point. Does he wake up? Does he realize what he's doing and stop? On August 19, 2004, Stephen was sentenced to 26 years to life. His appeal was rejected on August 12, 2005. According to the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation website,

Stephen Otto writes Was granted parole In November 22 So since the 26 years of life He does what 21 years or so With time served It's pretty normal I would think

Yeah If you're good behavior I wonder if he didn't Any sleep walking while he was in prison Well I don't know that I would have Wanted to be his bunk mate Given what he was in there for

But you know As we wrapped this one up I think anytime you have this type of sleepwalking defense case, it's going to be very controversial. In the case of Stephen Wright's numerous tests indicated he did have a sleepwalking disorder and had the potential to exhibit violent behavior during a sleepwalking episode, but he also had a history of violent threatening behavior while fully conscious and aware of what he was doing. I think which cast a lot of doubt on his defense. I mean, if he'd have been this squeaky, clean person

with no record or no history, then maybe the sleepwalking defense is much easier for the jury to swallow. I mean, we had one jury even say, hey, that carried a lot of weight to fact that he had all these, you know, past violent behavior. violent behaviors and violent offenses. I can't remember, but the South African runner,

was that sleep, something related to sleep when he shot is? Yeah, it's been a while since we did that case, but, you know, it wasn't a sleepwalking claim. It was more of he heard something, he got up, he was scared, shot into the bathroom, he thought an intruder was in the bathroom, and it turned out, you know, it was his girlfriend Riva in there. Yeah. I just thought this case was interesting because, you know, the defense really was able to put on

a large number of experts that said, okay, here's all the different things affecting this individual. This could happen what he's saying. But as it always ends up in every trial, it's up to the jury. right to kind of take all of this in and it just seems like there were some people on the jury that thought you just couldn't do all this while sleepwalk. Now personally, I don't know if you can or not. I think it's possible.

I really do. It's hard to believe. It's hard to believe, but I don't think it's impossible. The question is, is that what happened here? because here's a guy who, you know, had a history of violence, even violence against his ultimate victim. Yeah. So you got to factor that in. Could this be an easy excuse, right?

I sleepwalk. Everybody knows I do. So I'm going to say that this happened during a sleepwalking episode and I had no knowledge. of it. And I won't have to worry about going to jail. Yes. Prison. But, you know, then you think about that Toronto case, and obviously the jury were found in favor of the defense. You know, this is a guy that woke up, drove across town, went in, and almost killed

his father-in-law and killed his mother-in-law and didn't wake up and drove back home and got in bed. Well, but if you look at our system, is it a perfect system? No, absolutely not. You know, a jury of your peers. Hey, it depends on who's on that jury. Yeah, it sure does. How they are able to interpret scientific data, expert testimony.

There's a lot of faith and control in the hands of, you know, there's 12 jurors. There's just no way around it. Sounds like the jury consultant is as important, if not more important than your attorney. It can be. It can't be. But that's it for our episode on Stephen Wright's. So he's out. I have no idea what he's doing now.

Sleepwalking? Probably still sleepwalking. But did he really kill Eva knowingly? And I don't know how you answer that question. Only he can. I know what the jury decided. Sure. But jury's decisions aren't always correct.

We know that. That's part of why this is such a. interesting case. I think there are still some questions. And you're absolutely correct. At the end of the day, he's the only one. If he was being honest, who can say exactly what happened and why it happened. Yeah. If you're his girlfriend or wife today, are you a little bit more, you're a little nervous going to bed? Yeah, I think so. If you know about it. But we've got some voicemails. You want to check those out? It's here. Hey Mike and Gibby, this is Jessica from Chicago.

I've been listening to your show forever. I binge it while I'm working at home and on art projects. I just listened to the Nathan Miles Gale episode. I actually had to pause it in the middle. So I dated a guy in like 2006 named Metal Steve, and he would always talk about Dinebegg Darrell and how like, you know, RIP Dinebeg and like, oh, man, we listen so much. I had no idea that he was killed in such a horrible way.

Oh, my God. That, I don't want to say, blew my mind because that's a little on the nose and kind of inappropriate. But wow, that is bananas. Thank you for reporting on this and letting me know what the heck my ex is talking about all the time. Yeah, I love you guys. your show is awesome. You both clearly have a ton of compassion and I've noticed that like as time has gone, you really start to kind of understand issues and why people do things. And that's why a lot of us listen to true crime. So thank you for all your due and um, because you're both super cool.

So um, I, I'm team both, but Gibby, you're just so charming. I love you so much. Um, but I love both of you. So yeah, keep your own time. Just and thanks. Bye. All right. We love you too. We do. Ghibi loves you the most apparently. Yeah, absolutely. It's a known fact. But, you know, every now and then, we're informative. Can be, I guess. Yeah. Might learn something you didn't know before. I remember that case because we got a lot of emails about the dime bag and all that. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. the name.

Hi, boys. This is Ellie from little old Arlington, Washington. I'm the girl who may or may not have eaten people jerky. And also, sorry about the absolute dumpster fire of a voicemail. I get really nervous. But anyway, I was just listening to, I think it was a couple episodes before the Ayla Reynolds one. I don't remember what you guys were talking about in the voicemails,

But it reminded me of how it was like six months ago I was at a party with my boyfriend. And all of a sudden, he just looks at me and goes, yeah, I think if you would kill me, you'd probably poison me. And I was like, what the fuck? And he was like, well, I just feel like that's accurate. And I was like, well, first of all, weird that you brought that up. And second of all, poison is way too traceable. That simply would not be it. Anyway, yeah, keep your own time taken.

I'm definitely team Mike. So, yeah, bye. So I got a kick out of that one because what I wanted to know was what was his follow-up to that. Yeah. You know, she says, well, obviously, it wouldn't be poison. That's too traceable. Okay, well, then how would you do it? How have you been thinking about doing it then?

The old people jerky. Yeah, I don't know about that. Hey, what are you going to do? So we had some mailbag. Kelly Gilstrap sending a Harley Chip from Walt Disney World. Pretty cool. Nice. And Jesse Kennedy sit in this real cool serial killer map of Ohio.

Oh. Yeah. There was plenty. There's a lot of them on there. But I don't know if it like it's actually handmade or I don't know if it's bought. But either way, it's very cool. All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of true crime all the time.

So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.