True Crime All The Time - Steven Colver and Tylar Witt

Episode Date: July 27, 2020

19-year-old Steven Colver and 14-year-old Tylar Witt became lovers despite their age difference. But, when Tylar's mother Joanne began a campaign to keep them apart, the pair made the decision that to be together they had to murder Joanne.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murder of Joanne Witt committed by Steven Colver and Tylar Witt. Colver and Witt went to great lengths to keep their relationship a secret. But, from the very beginning, they were determined to be together forever. And, they were willing to go to any length to make that a reality.You can support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

and welcome to episode 193 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson, Gibby. How are you? Hey man. I'm doing good, man. How about you? I'm doing pretty well. Yeah. I think a lot of people will know that I've had a rough week. Yes, you have. Those that follow us on social media or who are on Patreon. But if you're not, my youngest daughter has been in the hospital. She was having trouble breathing. We took her and they found out that she had a blood clot in her lung. Yeah. Yeah. It's scary. Obviously very scary for any parent to go through that. So we spend some time at the hospital, but she's home now. Good. And the doctors are optimistic that the

medicine will take care of it. So that's what we're hoping for and that she makes a full recovery. but, you know, like anything that happens with your kids, it is downright scary. Shakes you, man. It shakes you. Wait a minute. No doubt about it. Yeah, it shakes you. I mean, it really does.

Shakes you to the bones, man. It does. You know, and every parent listening knows it. When it's your child or your children, there is a level of panic that sets in that it's hard to control. Until you get the answers? Yes. You're not going to sleep.

I know when I talk to. you that one that one morning uh both you and your wife really have not slept for what 24 hours yeah we both went 24 hours straight without sleeping so you know it's been a really rough week um but i do gips want to give a huge thanks to all the people that have sent their well wishes and you know just messages of the fact that they're they're thinking about us and all that facebook patreon you name it just a lot of people. And I let my daughter read those. And she was really touched, as was I.

The true crime community really reached out. Yeah. Yeah. T-Cat family, which is the way I look at it, they're amazing. Yeah. So because of everything that's been going on in my life, we decided that we were not going to put out an unsolved episode this week. Right.

It just wasn't in the cards. There was too much going on. So we'll read off the the normal Patreon names that would have gone on this T-Cat episode. And then at the very end, we'll have another set of Patreon names and PayPal donators that would have gone on this week's unsolved. Yeah, so just hang out to the very end. Yeah, they'll be on the end if you're looking for those. I also want to make an announcement that we have a brand new merchandise website up and running.

some different types of logos, a little more scripting, scripty, if that's the right word. It was scripty. Scripty. On some different types of merch, some better T-shirts, some people have already seen it

and complimented and said that they like the selection of shirts. And there's a bunch of other stuff on there as well. It's actually my cursive writing. I did that. It is. And it's very, very nice.

So when you get them, it's me hand-writing them on the shirt before they go out. But you can find the, link for that on our website true crime all the time.com. All right, Gibbs, let's give our shout outs. We had Jillian Yeager jumped out to our highest level. What's up, Yeager? Melissa Muncie. Hey, Muncie. Chris Schifferley. Hey, Chris. Martine Fences. Hey, Martin. Victoria Flick. Hey, thank you, Flick. Sarah Green Tree. Hey, Green Tree. Tommy Baker jumped out to our highest level.

What's going on, Tommy? We had Colleen Holt. Hey, Colleen. Michelle Kozub jumped out of our highest level. Really? Hey, Coseb. Jordan. Hey, Jordan. Jenna Lewis. Hey, Jenna.

Julie Reitdorf. Reedorf. Reedorf. Reedorf. Pam Midbow pen. Really? A little midbow pen out there. Joanna.

Hey, Joanna. Kim, Drefall. What's going on? Drefall. Chilling Canterbury. Well, I like a little canterbury. Sure. Yeah.

Ann Shaw. Hey, she'll. Heather Schwartz. What's going on? Oh, may the Schwartz be with you. Exactly. Dow Oi jumped out to our highest level. Thank you, Dow.

Tina Prater jumped out to our highest level. Thank you, Tina. We had Neely. Just Neely. Just Neely. Okay. And last but not least, Justin Birmingham. What's going on, Birmingham?

If we go back into the vault, Gibbs. Yeah. This week, we selected Nikki Preston. Hey, thanks, Nikki. Nikki's been with us a long time. We appreciate that. Yeah. We had some great PayPal donations as well, Daniel Bryan.

Thanks, Daniel. Merlin Tunafish. Really? Which I believe is a cat. Well, I appreciate that, Merlin. Whose owner wanted the shout out to go to her cat. I'm pretty sure. Samantha knew we made a sizable donation.

Thanks, Samantha. And we had Renee Tupacoff. Well, thank you, Renee. So thanks to everyone. Yes. All right, Gibbs. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the time? Yeah, let's do it.

So in this episode, we're talking about Stephen Culver and Tyler Witt. This was an unlikely pair that thought they were in love, but they were not supposed to be together. It's a pair that described their relationship later on in the same vein as Romeo and Juliet. Normally that is a kind of a scary comparison. Yeah, because they die in the end. It's kind of why they describe themselves that way. they weren't supposed to be together. People were trying to keep them from being together. They were willing to go that far, I believe.

Well, the Romeo and Juliet, I mean, it's classic, romantic. Sure. Because you're willing to give it all up for each other to the end. The problem here is that Stephen Culver is 19 years old and Tyler Witt is 14 years old. Man. So we've got a big issue. And this is the reason. why they're not supposed to be together, why people are trying to keep them from being together.

Number one, it's gross. And number two, it's highly illegal. Well, yeah, that's a good spread. I think those two cover it pretty well. Yeah. But because of all this, the couple are going to make the fateful decision that Tyler's mom, Joanne Witt, had to die. And that is really what this case involves. So Stephen and Tyler met at a coffee shop in January 2009. Tyler was a freshman at Oak Ridge High School. It's the same high school that Stephen had graduated from year before. So we're out in California in the city of El Dorado Hills, which I had never heard of Gibbs before I started researching this. It's about 20 miles east of the capital Sacramento. A couple hours north of San Fran, I think. Really? Really? A couple is in two. Two or so.

Okay. What's a couple to you? I have this conversation with people all the time. To me, it's very black and white. A couple means two. Yeah. A few. Several means three. What's a few? A few. A few is a little ambiguous. I don't know. Okay. That could be. I'll see you in a few hours. Yeah, that could be two, three, four, five. I don't know. Yeah. But I've always had this thing with couple and several, meaning two and three. I think couple for sure is what that means. Several people will argue about some people think it means three.

Some people say it means more. Several. I think you could go three, four. Okay. So you're in that camp. You're one of those people. Several, several hours, three, four. After that, it's like a whole different category.

All right. You can't say, I said, I'm here five hours later. I told you several hours, several hours. That's not several. No, but that's something you would do. Well, I just now in my defense, I could say, I'm like, I told you several hours. I don't know what you got a problem with. Right.

Five hours. I'm in that window. You can't now because you know, to me, several means three. Yeah, that's a problem. It looks like this is a pretty nice place, right? El Dorado Hills. It looks somewhat upscale. I could be wrong.

You know, the real estate in California is so hard to figure out. It really is. You can live in a one-bedroom, 900-square-foot house, and it'd be three times what my house is worth. And we know that because in the business we were in, you were in and I am currently. Yeah. We'd see that all the time. All the time. So Stephen and Tyler, they met in this coffee shop.

And it kind of really seemed like they became friends right away. They had a lot in common. They both dressed in black, goff, emo. I'm not sure what the difference is, to be honest with you, or what we're calling all this these days. I think there's a difference between emo and golf. I'm assuming there is because it's two different words. I just don't know what the difference is.

Yeah. But both of them involve kind of dressing in darker colors, right? Oh, absolutely. I saw it mentioned both ways. That's why I said both of the words. But I really don't know what the difference is. I think most people would rather be referred to as emo today than goth. Yeah.

And I could have looked it up, but then that would have made me sound like a no-it-all as opposed to allowing you and I to discuss it. Well, it's been still better than, you know, being a, what you, a furry. You know, or... I don't know how you go goth, emo, furry. Yeah, or your high school days when you were a hedgehog. So is that where you're a furry, but you only wear a suit that is all black, Well, I'm sure, depending what your animal is.

I'm sure there's a special name for that. I don't want to get into your furry wardrobe closet. No, I don't want you to either. Yeah. But they hung out in the same circles, spent much of their free time together. They hung out in this place called the town center, which looks to be a group of shops in El Dorado Hills, but over the next couple of months, this friendship blossom. it started to evolve until the pair became intimate in March of that year.

So we're only talking a couple of months. Yeah. It heated up until it got sexual. Uh-oh. Stephen Culver was the first boy that Tyler Witt had ever slept with. I mean, she's only 14 years old at this point in time. Tyler's diary, she kept a diary. It would later reveal some of her thoughts about Stephen.

and we'll talk about the diary a little bit later. But in one entry, she wrote, we will love each other past death. I know I will never stop loving him. That's pretty serious stuff for a 14 year old. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of us,

right, can remember back, you know, to being a teenager, what kind of first young love is like. I mean, I'm sure you can. It might be hard for you.

Going back to the eight years old. Yeah, with all the loves that you've had in your life. Obviously, I can't speak to it from a girl's perspective, but even from a guy's perspective, I remember it being pretty intense. And I think you and I maybe have even talked about it on other episodes. At that young of an age, you feel like everything revolves around this other person. Sure. sometimes to the exclusion of everyone else.

Yeah. Blinder. Yeah. And I think at that age, you always think things are way more important than what they really are. But that's how you learn, right? And it's, it's kind of how we all learned growing up. I look at it from, you know, the perspective of somebody thinking, you know, okay, this is my first love. This person's amazing.

We're going to be together till the end of time. Forever. Well, how often. does a relationship that starts at 14, 15 years old, end up in married 60 years. We're on the porch and our rocking chairs. Not very often. It's a rarity. But when you're that age, you just think that's going to happen. Oh, sure. Yeah. You don't see anything else but that. No. Then you buy your girlfriend a ring for Valentine's Day and she dumps you the next day. Or you give you your class. Not that that happened to me specifically. Well, you got a little tear in your eye.

And not that I'm a little sore about it still today. You're like, how you like me now? But for Tyler Witt, 14 years old, this is not a relationship that she can tell her mom about, right? Hey, mom, I'm dating a, and by the way, having sex with a 19 year old adult man. Doing something illegal here, mom. Hope you're okay with it. This guy's 19. She's 14.

She's just starting high school. he's already in college. Yeah. And, you know, really Tyler and her mom, Joanne, they didn't get along anyway. Tyler was at that age where she was rebelling against her mom pretty much at every turn. Well, she is 14. Oh, yeah. You know, there's a lot of 14, 15 year olds.

That's the beginning of interesting times in the house. Well, you know I have a 14 year old daughter. Yeah. There is getting to be some rebellion. Now, I will say this, 90% of the time my daughter is an angel. Yeah. But during that 10% Gibbs, you better batten down the hatches because storms be a Bruin, matey.

You're looking for like Damon and the head spinning and floating above the bed. I'm in the fallout shelter, man, at that point. You're like, I'm out of here. Because like I said, that 10% things can go sideways. in a hurry. Yeah. But it's a small percentage. I got the feeling that Tyler and her mother, it was more the inverse.

Oh, I got you. Maybe 10% was good. 90% of the time, they were at each other. Walking on egg shells all the day, all time, all day long. Tyler was acting out in, in pretty big demonstrative ways. You know, like I said, they were constantly fighting. Tyler had begun to self-harm. and had even run away from home a few times by the age of 14.

And that's not uncommon. I don't want to say it's the norm by any means. But yeah, I mean, that's a thing that happens today is the self-harm. It's sad. It's wish it didn't happen. But I know that I see a lot of stories about it. I see a lot of feeds about it. And no, some kids have done it.

Yeah. And we have a lot of interaction with people that talk. about some of the things they did when they were that age. Sure. Now, they luckily made it through it and, you know, got help and now they're, they're much better. But so let's talk about Joanne Witt a little bit. This is not one of those cases where we're going huge background on everybody, but Joanne Witt was 47 years old in 2009. And as a single mother, I mentioned it, was dealing with her rebellious 14-year-old daughter Tyler. Joanne worked for the county in the Department of Transportation.

And from all of the research, had done her best over the years to provide for Tyler. She was a loving mother. You know, people said some really good things about her. You know, being a mom is just hard. Being a single mom, man, that's stuff. Very hard. Yeah. You have a lot of respect.

And I know you do, especially. have a lot of respect for single mothers. I do. But there's no way that Joanne could have known just how devious, just how deadly her daughter could be. Tyler's going to con her mom in a big way. And then ultimately play a role in her death. So the con came when Tyler approached her mother about letting Stephen Culver rent a bedroom

in their house. I don't know about you Gibbs, but to me, that sounds very odd. If my daughter came and said, why don't you let my old, much older male friend rent one of our bedrooms. I'd get the drug test out immediately. We're going to pee on the stick or I don't know how you do this home drug test, but I don't know if it's like a whole pregnancy test or what. I would think that she's smoking something for sure.

Yeah. Well. Because I'm not, I'm not going for this. that. Sees in love. But this was a different situation. This was really kind of a confluence of events here that led to all of this happening because first off, Joanne was actually looking to take on a border, someone who could

help out with the rent. Secondly, Stephen's father decided that he was going to move to another state, sell his house and essentially take off. So it wasn't like the example that I gave. There was a need. There was a need and Tyler knew it. So she used that opening to say, hey, I've got this friend. And Joanne had met Stephen a couple of times, I believe. So it wasn't like he was a total stranger. But Tyler said, hey, I've got this friend. He'd be perfect. Let him rent it. He'll pay you. He needs a place. You need some rent money.

Right. And I like the guy. Obviously, Stephen wanted to stay near Tyler. He didn't, he didn't want to move, you know, wherever his dad was going. So they hatched this plan. Tyler worked on her mom, you know, kind of kept on her about letting Stephen Culver pay $500 a month to live in a bedroom in their house. Now, obviously, Joanne had no idea that Steve.

Stephen and Tyler were romantically and sexually involved. She would have never gone for it if she had known that. No, she knew that there was going to be shared showers and all that stuff. That'd be a note. But to help with the con, Tyler told Joanne that Stephen was gay. That little twist, huh? Mm-hmm. And even had some backstory, I think, to go with it, talked about, you know, some of his

boyfriends, name them by name. you know, when you're doing the con, you got to fall all the way through. You got to be prepared. Yeah. So Joanne had met Stephen a couple of times, like I said, and given the information she had, she thought, okay, this is a good idea. So Stephen moved into their house in April of 2009. But you got to look at it.

What a great arrangement for Stephen and Tyler. Oh, it's perfect for them. I mean, they're carrying on this affair that. they shouldn't be doing. It's illegal for Stephen, you know, to say the least. And now they can do it under the cover of Tyler's mom's house. Yeah. The problem is it would prove fatal for Joanne, this arrangement. But not at first, right? At first, everything seemed to go pretty well. Joanne thought Stephen was great. He was helping out Tyler with her homework. Remember, he had just graduated from the very same high school that she was going to, and he had taken

courses with the same teachers that Tyler had. There was some articles that said he was emailing her teachers for her and, you know, helping her in different ways, tutoring her. Joanne told people that she thought the house was calmer with Stephen around. Tyler was more subdued and wasn't always trying to pick a fight every day at every turn. Stephen helped out with the chores. The three of them sat down at night and ate dinner together. Oh man. They were at the table sitting down. Yeah. As a family. Right. Just like you sit with my family. I know. When we record. I did that tonight. It was kind of nice. It's, it's a highlight, man, especially when they're all there. Yeah. When they weren't all there tonight. But when they're all there,

it can be, it's actually quite comical. It is. It's like the best entertainment. Just sit and listen to my family talk. I don't know what's better. Listening to them, which makes me laugh or watch you, like, because you just like to want to eat and get to the studio. And when I sit at the table, I'm there to eat. I know. But we're all yakking away and you're like, can you? And the problem is I get done.

You're sitting there talking and have half a plateful. And I'm ready to get recorded. But we had fun. All right, Gibbs. Let's take a quick break to talk about our new. sponsor Pretty Litter. Now you and I, neither one of us have cats, but my sister-in-law does. So I had a sample sent to her. She loves her cat, but she's always complaining about, you know, the cleaning, the smell, and how that's a constant battle. She's been blown away by Pretty Litter. She will not

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But on the surface, if you look at what's going on in this house, it seems like a pretty good situation. Right. Gibbs, you'd have to say that. Well, not to me. Because number one, I don't like people in my house. No. And we've established that you're not even happy when I come up. No. And I like you.

Some days. I just am not a big fan of entertaining, of, having people in my house messing up with my schedule. I just don't like it. You're better than, you know, we have a buddy that we both used to work with that people would come over and he would give them footies to put on their feet and he would hand them their own solo cup

if it was a get-together and he'd hand them a trash bag and tell them to fill it up and take their trash out back with them. I'm not like that. I don't care about anything like that. I just don't want you here in the first place. Yeah. You're like, don't even come in the door, man. care if you walk on the carpet with your shoes, but I'd rather you just not be here at all.

Yeah. Can we just do this over the phone? Right. But for someone who was wanting to take on a border anyway, like Joanne was, I'm not sure how she could have thought that it could have worked out any better, right? This guy's great. He's doing chores. He's helping my daughter with her homework. He's paying me. But there was so much Gibbs that Joanne didn't know. Right? We've talked about it. She doesn't even know that Stephen and Tyler are being intimate with each other. And now they're under the same roof making it so easy to fool around, to have sex whenever Joanne is not around. I'm actually having a hard time saying Stephen and Tyler, because I can only think of Stephen Tyler. I keep waiting for you to bust out in tune. Stephen Tyler PJs. Now, I don't do Stephen Tyler. That's that is a hard one. to replicate. Yeah.

Not too many people have a voice that sounds like that. That's why he is who he is. But this border bliss, right? This great scenario that Joanne's got was Stephen. It didn't last long. It was really just the month after he moved in when the shit hit the fan. So Stephen's room that he was staying in was kind of connected to this unfinished room that housed all the HVAC equipment.

There was like an access to get to this unfinished room through his room. That's the way it was described. That's the way I took it. So one day in May, Joanne walked into this unfinished room and she couldn't believe what she saw. She found weed, other drugs. She found sex toys, found some lubricant. Well, you're going to use sex toys?

I guess you need lubricant, I guess. Yeah, you guess. That started out from a real place of knowledge. And then you were like, I guess. But not too hard, right, to figure out what's going on here. We've got drugs, got sex toys. Something's going on that I wouldn't want to have happen underneath my roof. Let's put it that way.

Well, we know what's going on. Inside that room, Stephen and Tyler are doing drugs and they're having sex. But Joanne doesn't know this. And she didn't even know that Tyler, you know, did drugs, smoked weed, did other drugs. She didn't know that at all. So she confronted Stephen, assuming that all of the stuff must have been his. I'm not sure Gibbs exactly what she thought he was doing with the sex toys and the lubricant, but, you know, who knows? That's for everybody to use their own imagination on.

I'm not going to speculate. Yeah, I don't think you can. Oh, I could. Oh, you probably already have. I'm not going to. But you shouldn't. Shouldn't, no. So Joanne's ticked at Stephen and she's giving him the business about having this stuff in her house.

She's about ready to kick him out. But she doesn't end up doing that. And I think one of the main reasons that she doesn't is Stephen has all the right excuses. And it's excuses that you would hear from your kid. Oh, I'm holding this pot for somebody. else for a friend. I mean, we've all heard those type of excuses. Not sure what he came up with about the sex toys, but he certainly didn't say that he was

using them with Tyler. We should do a quiz, not a quiz, a poll or something. If you got caught with a sex toy, what would be your excuse for having it? See what kind of answers you get. Well, I guess it would really depend on the sex toy. I guess you'd have to describe what the sex toys first. You'd have to pick one. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if you can pick one, just one. No, probably not. I don't even know what they look like. Oh, my gosh. So like I said, Joanne was ticked, but she let him stay. She bought all the lines that he fed her, but just the very next day. Joanne came home from work early. Nothing good. Gibbs has ever come from your mom or dad coming home from work early. That is the truth. Nothing. Because, as a kid, if you're home alone, which you probably weren't very often because you had brothers and stuff. Right. I was home alone by myself, which meant I was probably doing something I shouldn't have been doing. So Joanne gets home. She's calling out for Tyler, no answer. She goes to Stephen's room.

She knocks on the door. What she hears on the other side of the door is a whole lot of commotion. And when Stephen opens the door, he's not fully dressed. Well, this is not good. It's not good at all. I think he had his pants on at least. Yeah. But she knew something wasn't right.

She knows something's going on. So she goes through the access point into the unfinished basement and finds her daughter, Tyler, in there naked, 14 years old. Yeah, not good. And now she knows. Joanne knows that her 14-year-old daughter is having sex with a 19-year-old. man, Gibbs, I can't even tell you what my emotional state would be. I'm pretty sure steam would come out of my ears like in a cartoon or something. Yeah. I mean, my blood's starting to boil a little bit

right now just thinking about it. I get so fired up. Well, because you have a 14 year old and you know well, I don't think there's any age that'd be okay in this house. But a 19 year old, I think you'd be calling me up and saying, hey, Gibbs, can you start digging the hole? Yeah. I'm on my way. I just, I don't know what my restraint would be. It's scared. Things like that scare me. Yeah.

Because I have a tendency to fly off the handle. Just a bit. I have a problem with road rage when people do things they shouldn't do. And he's just joking. He doesn't have a problem with road rage. If this is an attorney, listen to this tape two years from now, if he's arrested for road rage, he really didn't have a road rage issue. I made it all up. Made it all up.

All right. So what's Joanne going to do? She's found out that Tyler's having sex with Stephen. She's got a few options here. But the one that she picks is a somewhat strange one to me. She decides to sit down and talk with Stephen. And he actually does come clean. He admits to the sexual relationship with Tyler.

And he admits to knowing that it's illegal. She could have called the cops very easily. she could have had him arrested, but she chose not to do any of that. On one condition, she gave Stephen the choice. If he would leave her house and never see Tyler again, she wouldn't call the police. And of course, Gives, what's the guy going to do? He jumps all over this. Yeah.

Because what's the alternative? Whatever it is, it would be very bad for him. He most likely would have been charged with statutory rape, ended up as a, a sex offender for the rest of his life. So he said, sure. Yeah. I'll, I'll do that. I'll leave now. Now, what he should have done was change his name, had facial reconstruction surgery, and never set foot in the state of California again. That would have been the smart thing to do. But of course, he wasn't smart enough to stay away from a 14 year old girl in the first place. And he's not going to be smart enough to leave her alone. Well, most guys can't stay away from the woman they love if they keep going after it,

coming after it, nonstop. But he is 19. Well, that's what I'm saying. That's okay. Yeah. If I'm 21 and you're 20 or, you know, not me. Legal age. Yeah.

But you have to look at Tyler's part in this as well. She's in love with this guy. It's not like because her mom said, Stephen don't see my daughter, that Tyler stopped calling him, right? she didn't she's not going to abide by this deal that they've made she's calling him all the time but at the same time she's also lashing out at her mom on a daily basis she's upset with her that she's trying to break up this love affair and i even hate to use that term when we're talking about a 19 year old and the 14 year old but i think that's the way that this young

girl looked at it, Gibbs. This was her true love. This is how she felt deep down. Her diary backs that up. Good old diaries. It was a constant battle inside of that house. And then one night, Joanne couldn't find Tyler. Tyler wasn't picking up the phone, wasn't returning text. So Joanne naturally assumed that she was with Stephen. She really wasn't. She was out with with some other friends, but Joanne was so sure she was with Stephen, she called the police. And she told them all about Stephen and the inappropriate relationship. And obviously, the police are going to investigate this. And they do. They talk to Stephen. They talk to Tyler. But both of them gave the exact same convincing story, right? Nothing inappropriate is going on. I think Tyler said,

you know, this guy's like my big brother. And the police walked away thinking, well, there's nothing here. We don't have anything other than what the mom is saying. We can't arrest this guy. We can't charge this guy. No, that's not good enough to arrest anybody. But I've mentioned Tyler's diary a couple of times. Eventually, Joanne found it.

And she read it. And from all accounts, it was pretty descriptive about what the relationship with Stephen was. how long it had been going on. Apparently, Tyler was very descriptive when it came to the sex between her and Stephen. It was descriptive Gibbs to the point of duration, positions, days, whether or not they used birth control. I mean, very descriptive. Wow. So once Joanne had that, she had everything she needed, right? That's the kind of evidence that would put Steve, Stephen Culver away for a very long time. And it would keep him away from her daughter. And Joanne made the decision to hand that diary over to police. And it was right after Joanne handed over Tyler's diary

that Stephen and Tyler began hatching their plot to kill Joanne. Now, from here forward, The facts are a little hazy. Some of them are up for interpretation. Like a lot of cases where you have two individuals, some of it depends on which of the two participants involved you believe the most. Do you believe Tyler or do you believe Stephen? Because each one of them is going to try to downplay their own involvement and each one of them is going to point the finger at the other.

What I do believe is that the two of them, going back to that Romeo and Juliet thing, felt that their only option to be together was to run away. They apparently discussed running away to San Francisco, but not just running away. They talked about taking their own lives together as a couple on their four month anniversary. We got to analyze that for just a minute. Sure. Four months. Short period time. You're in a relationship that is four months old, and I don't know what they are using to mark the beginning of that four months.

But either way, this is not a very old relationship. And you're talking about killing someone, not just anyone, your mother. Yeah. To keep this relationship going. Maybe their love, their relationship was just so intense during these four months that it was greater than four months in their minds, you know? And you think that makes it okay to... I don't think it makes it okay.

I'm just saying in their mind... Well, yeah, we already talked about that. In a 14-year-old's mind, so if we're talking about Tyler, way more intense than what it actually is. I do believe that. Oh, if that's what you're saying. Oh, yeah, this is all new to her. Oh, and maybe even for...

for Stephen. Yeah. Much more intense, much more important. The stakes are higher. Everything's much more dire than what it really is if you could step away from it. Step back. And see it from 10,000 feet. But you can't do that.

You're in the middle of it. Yeah. You're up in the heat. And you don't have the, what, Gibbs? The life experience to know any of that yet. so everything just seems so into the world-ish. Yeah. I'll put it that way.

That's a good. Yeah. And I think that's what happened here. But Tyler says that they finally settled on the fact that they had to deal with her mother. Because even if they ran away, her mom would call the police. The police would find them before they were able to do whatever it is they wanted to do. She felt like they had no choice, but to. deal with Joanne. And all went down in the night of June 11th, 2009. That night, Tyler says

she met Culver at a local school. He had a knife with him that he had swiped from his restaurant job. They went to Tyler's house, climbed the stairs to Joanne's bedroom where she was asleep. This was just before right around midnight on the 11th. According to, you know, and the 11th, according to, to Tyler, Stephen stood next to Joanne's bed with the knife and he started making practice swing. Okay. I guess trying to figure out how he was going to do this. The kid's not a killer. As far as I know, it's not like he has any practice. I'm sure he didn't read your book or anything like that. He's like, I got one chance. How am I going to do it? How am I going to do this? Well, it's while he is

making these practice swings. Again, this is all according to Tyler, right? Tyler's standing in the doorway. She realizes that she can't do it. She can't kill her mother. Now, she's not going to stop Stephen from doing it. So she basically just slumped down in the hallway while Stephen did what he came to do. And he proceeded to stab Joanne Witt somewhere around 20 times. slashed her throat as well. When the pair left the house that night, Joanne was dead. They headed to Stevens' dad's house,

you know, the one that he was trying to sell. Stephen got rid of his bloody clothes. They washed up. So I just want to stop, take a minute, kind of talk about Tyler and Stephen. They're both young,

even though Stevens is 19 years old. They have just killed a woman. And for Tyler, it was her mom. So they're trying to figure out what to do, right? Got to get rid of the bloody clothes, got to clean up. But then the next day, they essentially spent it with friends at the places around El Dorado Hills that they normally hung out at. They stocked up on supplies for their upcoming trip to San Francisco.

They bought a bunch of different types of drugs and, you know, all the supplies that you need when you're about ready to go on the lamb. Yeah, you know, you got to have those critical things. Later that day, they made it back to Stevens House. And they actually invited a friend over. They did some drugs and later on confided in this friend, Matt Whitman, what they had done. And apparently even showed him the bloody knife. So you're right. Clearly, they did not read my book because like very heavily cover things you do not do. Right, which is tell anyone, show anybody the murder weapon, that should be one and two. Mm-hmm.

But what I found very interesting Gibbs in the reading was there was a lot in there about how Tyler Witt, even at the age of 14, she was kind of obsessed with like CSI. Yeah. And I think she thought that she was smarter than what she was. Of course, what 14 year old doesn't think that. True. But she was really kind of obsessed with those forensic type procedurals. And I think she knew or thought she knew what they needed to do to, you know, move forward.

Right. But one thing I guarantee you they don't do on those shows is invite somebody over and essentially just tell them what you've done and show them the murder web. That's true. So that's why I thought it. it was very strange, her watching all these shows and really being into this and then making the decision that, oh yeah, well, come on over. We're going to do a bunch of drugs and we'll tell you exactly what we've done. Yeah. And here's the bloody knife that Stephen used.

Stephen eventually dropped the knife down a storm drain outside his house. And then later that night, the pair left for San Francisco, right? This was their plan all along. to head to San Francisco, the body of Joanne Witt was found by authorities the following Monday. Her coworkers called to say that she had not been at work. And they had not heard from her since Thursday. And that wasn't like Joanne, right? She was punctual. She didn't miss work.

But if she had to, no way would she not have called. Right. That was so far out of the ordinary that everybody at work. her coworkers knew something was wrong. I wonder how long I could be gone before someone wondered. Before they wondered or before they cared? Because those are two different things. That's true.

Because, you know, you could have somebody be like, yeah, I wonder where Gibby is. Yeah. And then the other person goes, well, who gives a shit? And they're like, that's true. That's true. You're right. Who gives a shit? No, I think they would, they would wonder about it pretty quickly given your,

given your job. You know, there are some jobs where you're going to wonder much, quicker than others. That's true. You would. If my trash guy doesn't come on Thursday, I'm wondering where the heck he is. You're calling the city. Yes, because he's always here on Thursday.

Where's my trash guy at, man? I don't want to bring the can back in full. I think right away, right? The police wanted to talk to Tyler and Stephen, but they couldn't find them, especially given the recent history between the three of them, including Joanne, and her. allegations levied at Stephen, authorities had to suspect that something might be up with, at the very least, Stephen, right? There is a motive for Stephen to want Joanne to disappear, but they can't find

them. So the manhunt begins for Stephen Culver and Tyler Witt. You think they call it the people hunt now? The people hunt now begins. Oh, instead of the man hunt? Yeah. Because of political correctness. Yeah.

I don't think they do. It's more exciting to say manhunt. Didn't John Walsh just have a show called manhunt or something like that? And I don't even think that was that many years ago. Plus, people hunt just sounds funny. It does sound funny. Going on a people. Going on a people hunt.

I don't think it's any big shock that it doesn't take authorities very long to find Stephen and Tyler just a couple of days, they were arrested at a strip mall about 15 miles south of San Francisco. After they were arrested, authorities found the motel room that they had been staying in, and it offered up some pretty telling evidence. It appeared that both Colver and Witt had attempted to take their own lives, and they both left notes to that effect. But it's the way they chose to do it. that I found so odd.

You know, you hear about people shooting themselves. You hear about people hanging themselves, things like that. Authorities found inside that hotel room, some cereal and some cake that they determined was laced with rat poison. Okay. So that is the way that they tried to take their own lives. They wanted to try to poison themselves with a something that would make a, more sick than if they didn't do it right.

Right. Yeah. And I think specifically it was fruit loops, if I remember correctly. Fruit loops. Yeah. It's not a bad cereal. No, I like fruit loops. Yeah.

I like mine without rat poison, but I like fruit loops. Yeah, I prefer it without that too. Authorities also found some writings that shed light on the reasons for the murder. We mentioned it. Tyler had a diary. She liked to write. In one entry that they found in the hotel, it said, you mother made me a whore to the man I love. I don't even know what the hell that means.

Yo, mom, I think you made me a whore to the man that I am in love with. I don't know what that means. Are you trying to clear it up for me? Because that's essentially what I just said. You added the word yo in front of it and changed mother to mom. And magically, I'm supposed to understand. That wasn't where the, no, that's not where the confusion lay. I've read that statement a number of times. I just cannot make sense of it. She's saying to her mother, you made me a whore to the man I love, which is obviously

Stephen. How did her mom make her a whore? Maybe she left out the, you made me sound like a whore. You make me seem like a whore. Oh, well, shit, if you just want to add a bunch of words to make something different. Well, I think she wrote what she said. meant to write. You've read some of my emails. You know how my writing abilities are. You have to make a lot of assumptions when you read my stuff. You have to add some of your own words to it.

So I mentioned it. Both were arrested, both for murder. And the police began to question Tyler. And I want to play a clip from that. You've been arrested for murder. Attorney in one that we continue. And unfortunately, we can't talk to you again. Good luck. So there's really not a whole lot of questioning going on right there. But the reason why I wanted to play the clip, first of all, you get to hear Tyler. She sounds like a young girl to me.

Now, she does have the insight, I guess, for a lack of a better word, to ask for an attorney. Yeah. At 14 years old. That's, I mean, I hate to say it, but I mean, that's a good thing to do. It is. you know but then she says i just want you all to go away yeah go leave me alone so it's it to me it's almost like i'm older than 14 i'm younger than 14 you know what i'm saying something that an older person would say comes out and then something that a a younger person would say comes out right after

it's that c s i coming out over there exactly now one of the big things related to the trial of of tyler whit we're not going to spend a lot of time on the trial was whether she would be tried as an adult or as a juvenile. I mean, she's only 14 years old at the time of the murder. And it's a huge deal here, right? As it relates to possible sentencing. Well, it's a huge spread on what the time she would spend would be. Oh, no doubt.

If she was convicted as a juvenile, she would have been eligible for release when she was 25 years old. Yeah. If she was convicted as an adult, she could face up to life in prison. The one thing I do know is that the death penalty was off the table because of her age. Yeah. I did read that. No one's going to put that on the table. Not at 14.

But life at 14. That is a lengthy sentence. And the prosecution, they went full steam ahead with attempting to try. her as an adult. And obviously her defense didn't want that, right? They wanted her try it as a juvenile. So there was a battle. And it was up to the judge, this judge named James Wagner to decide. And a hearing was held in November of 2009. Both sides gave their arguments. In the end, Judge Wagner decided that Tyler Witt could be tried as an adult. And in doing so, he said, there is no graver crime than matricide.

This was not an easy decision to reach, but the evidence against Tyler Witt shows criminal sophistication. I don't think she can be rehabilitated in 10 years. That's what he said. Do you don't take some time to unwind at everything that's up in her head? But that's a, it was a huge decision, right? Juvenile versus adult. that makes a world of a difference on how this is going to move forward.

And I think because of that pretty quickly, she started looking for a deal and she got a deal. And don't you think the prosecution kind of drove this that way, wanting to get the outcome they did so she would play ball? Yeah, I absolutely think you're right. Because what are the chances that Tyler Witt, this little 14-year-old growing, would ever get life. I mean, do you think a jury would really give her a life sentence? No.

With the knowledge, if you believe that she didn't actually strike any of the blows, right? She didn't use the knife if you believe that. Now, there's going to be some question as to that. But according to her, that's what happened. I think it would be tough for a jury to give a 14-year-old life in prison.

But what you're saying makes absolute sense, right? Go after trying her as an adult because we're going to turn around and now make a deal. And that gives us the leverage, the ammunition to make that deal. Yeah, because if you're only looking at 10 years, maybe she doesn't. Right. Because I love them. I'll wait it out versus, no, you might be in here for the next 30, 40 years of your life, if not longer. what are you going to do now? Let me make a plea deal. Yeah, and she does. She reached a plea deal

with prosecutors where she would plead guilty to a reduced charge in exchange for her testimony against Stephen Culver. But one of the big sticking points in this deal was the murder weapon. She had to give authorities the location of the murder weapon. They wanted it. Yeah. They really needed it, right? In the trial against Stephen, it would be. really good to have. And she told the authorities that Stephen had thrown it down a storm drain. She told him exactly where it was. They searched a bunch of times, but they never could find it. Which is amazing to me because you would think that potentially that knife would just lay at the bottom of that drain. You know, it might move down a little bit, but not too far. But then again, it could have been a fairly light knife.

And if they had a lot of stormwater pushing through. I think if you had a somewhat of a surge, you know, big rain. And that's one of the theories that they had was that it was just enough water to carry it further than where they were looking. Right. Because they looked pretty extensively. It wasn't like they just searched that one drain and stop. But they couldn't find it. But it almost cost her this deal.

Because, you know, as part of the deal, she had to be 100% truthful. There was a question. on the part of prosecutors whether or not she was because they couldn't find the murder weapon. Tyler Witt testified during Culver's trial. And at one point on the stand, as she was talking about the point where her mother was murdered, she said she lost her nerve, right? This is her out in the hallway. And she said, quote, I close my eyes and hummed as my mother was attacked. Now, Stephen Culver testified that Tyler Witt had killed her mother all by herself. He didn't have anything to do with it.

Wasn't me, man. Wasn't me. And his defense team did everything they could to blame the entire incident on Tyler. You know, she was the seductress. She manipulated Stephen. She got him over to the house, but she had already killed her mother. mother, you know, all these things. They attacked her pretty viciously on the stand.

But one of the things they got her to admit, Gibbs, which I didn't want to talk about it before because I wanted to wait until this point in time, but on the stand, they got her to admit that she had multiple personality. Three. Three. In fact, is what she said. One was her, Tyler Witt. Just her every day.

persona. Yeah. Yeah. So that was one. But then she went on to say that she had an angel, but one of the personalities was a demon. She just came right out and said it on the stand. And the demon talked to her. Tyler Witt took the stand at exactly 846 this morning. And within minutes, courtroom observers the same age as the 16 year old were struck by her demeanor. I think she's very in emotional. You know, I don't see a lot of emotion in what she said. At one point was Stephen Culver looking straight at her. Witt admitted that she has a demon named Toby living inside her body and talking to her. Yeah, it was surreal. On the stand, Witt also admitted what prosecutors have long alleged.

She and Stephen Culver planned and Culver carried out the murder of her own mother. After Joanne Witt discovered Culver was having sex with a 14-year-old Tyler. Witt said, quote, we had to make sure my mother didn't tell police by killing her. He said he would get a knife. Witt also revealed for the first time. She and Culver made a Romeo and Juliet-style suicide pact before ever discussing murder. I don't think she lied at all.

I think that this did happen the way that prosecutors said it did, that Stephen Culver actually did the killing. Yes. Asked on the stand why anyone should believe her now after years of lying, Witt said that in jail she read the Bible and that God, quote, put a big fat sign in front of her. to start telling the truth. Moments later for the first time in this trial,

Tyler Witt wiped away a tear. So she's 16 years old, right? By the time this trial happens, a couple of things about that news clip. Number one, you know, people in the audience are asked whether they believed her. And they said they did. They believed what she was saying versus what Stephen Culver

and his defense team was saying. Yeah. Well, you want to believe a 16-year-old in that case, you know, I mean, you really want to believe that she couldn't do something like that, stab her mom 20 plus times and slice her neck. And you would hope that a 16-year-old or any daughter couldn't do that to her mom, but let alone a 16-year-old. But who was at, what, 14 at the time? Yeah, she was only 14 at the time. Well, I think if you're on the jury, you're looking at Stephen Culver, a man. and that admitted to the fact that he had sexual relations with a 14-year-old girl,

that's strike number one. Sure. Right? Statutory rape. Strike one against you. How does that factor in when you're weighing the other things that he's saying? Well, I think it weighs in because I think there's a level of manipulation too involved when you're 19 with a 14-year-old.

you know you're saying he manipulated her absolutely and i think it goes back to what you were saying where a jury wants to believe her they do they want to believe her sure because she's a child yeah and they're looking at this 19 year old who's now 21 right by the time the trial takes place and they're thinking you know yeah only 19 but that's an adult that's a that's a man and you took advantage of this young girl, I think you're right. I think naturally they would be inclined to believe her over him. It sounds like that's what happened. But the prosecution was able to attack Stephen as well. They said that the motivation for Joanne's murder was much stronger for him because he was facing serious jail time if she continued with her crusade to get him charged with statutory

rape. That's hard to argue. That's real. He knew it. He had to have been upset about it. He had to have been worried about it. But I think one of the big things is the prosecution presented some DNA evidence that was found on Joanne's body and was confirmed to be Stevens. And you know how DNA plays in the minds of the jury. It's gold, Jerry. It's gold. Gold. Now, Steve, Stephen and his defense team would try to say, okay, yeah, it was his DNA. He touched the body after Tyler killed her mother. But again, I'm not sure a jury wants to believe that or even, you know, and on top of that, that the evidence is anywhere near compelling enough to make them believe that.

The prosecution had some witnesses who testified that Stephen Culver confessed to them that he murdered Joanne Witt. One was Matt Whitman, you know, the guy that that we already talked about who the couple had confessed to the day after the murders just prior to taking off for San Francisco. He got up on the stand, right? Talked about that. We mentioned the fact that they even showed him the bloody knife, which was the murder weapon. He was able to tell the jury that. Pretty compelling. Pretty compelling. And I just. just think overall, the evidence against Stephen Culver was pretty overwhelming. No matter how his defense team tried to spin it. And really their biggest thing was to try to put it all on Tyler.

It took the jury less than a day to deliberate the facts of the case. They convicted Stephen Colver of first-degree murder with the special circumstances of lying in wait and killing a witness, which I thought that was interesting. That is interesting. Because essentially they're saying Joanne was a witness to him committing the crime of statutory rape, and he killed her for it. During the impact part of the sentencing, Joanne's father and Tyler's grandfather,

he was a guy by the name of Norb. I think his real name was Norbert, but they called him Norb. He got up to speak. And he let his granddaughter have it. He said, quote, you are a murderer. You and your boyfriend planned and executed a vicious,

senseless murder. That's tough. Gibbs, tough to think that you would ever be standing up in court, talking to your child or your grandchild like that. But he's not wrong. It's just hard to imagine that you'd ever have to do that. But it's also hard to imagine that someone in your family would ever do something so

heinous, so calculating, so horrific to another member of your family. Family member or any person. You just see that. Any person. But I think especially. your family, right? This man's granddaughter killed his daughter, essentially, or was involved in the murder of his daughter. So Stephen Culver, who like I mentioned, by this time was 21 years old, received a mandatory sentence of life without the possibility of parole. And it really was

the special circumstances that I mentioned that took away that possibility of, of parole. So I think the prosecution was really smart here. They looked at all the options available to them and they figured out what would give Stephen the maximum sentence. No, I totally agree. It's very smart on their part. They're not stretching the law. They're not circumventing anything. They're just figuring out how to use the law in order to achieve a maximum sentence. Strategy, man. It is. Tyler, who we mentioned was 16 by this point, pleaded guilty to that reduced charge of second degree murder after testifying against Stephen. She was sentenced to 15 years to life.

So more than what it would have been had she been tried for a juvenile, for sure, right? Because the maximum is life. Anytime you have two life in there, that's a scary proposition. sure it is but the beginning number starts with 15 and Tyler Witt will be eligible for parole in 2024 just around the corner goes by fast she could be getting out you know Gibbs we talk about this sometimes but there was a lot in the research about the toll that this whole thing took on the families you know I mentioned Joanne's father he was a wreck Stephen's mother was was at the trial she was a wreck, cried uncontrollably at times. But incredibly, after it was all over, right? After the trial,

after the sentencing, these two people, they cried with each other, they hugged each other. I found that to be, I don't even know what the word is, somewhat inspirational. This is the mother of the man that killed your daughter. But you're able to recognize that, obviously, she's, she didn't do it and she's hurting. Yeah. Just like you are. I thought it was very interesting. Some good compassion there.

Yeah. I mean, we talk about it sometimes, but I just don't think you can overlook the toll that these crimes take on so many different people involved, right? It's not just the victims. It's not just the perpetrators that are going to jail. It's got a whole butterfly effect, man. It does. It's all of their loved ones, despite.

web of people that are affected for the rest of their lives as well. The caterpillar effect. So you switch from the butterfly effect to the caterpillar effect? You put spider in there. I thought we were going to name off different insects. And just put effect after. Yeah, and just kind of roll with it. But that's it.

That's the case of Stephen Culver and Tyler Witt. I do think it's an interesting case for, you know, a couple of different reasons, some of which, you know, obviously we've already talked about. This whole idea of young love and thinking that I would do anything, I would die for this person. Yeah. That I met three months ago, four months ago. That's tough to wrap my head around. And then, you know, take it a step further and say, not only am I willing to die for this person with this person, I'm willing to take part in killing my own mother.

Yeah. to make sure that I can be with this person. I just can't, I can't wrap my head around any of that. No, bizarre, man. It's so senseless. All right,

Gibb, so that's it for the case of Stephen Culver and Tyler Witt. We've got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Let's hear them. Hey, guys, this is Megan from Illinois.

I wanted to call on, let you guys know. I've been listening since, November of 2017. And I really appreciate you guys so much. You make my workday so much easier. I believe the first episode I listened to was Tommy Linsells, and I enjoyed it. And then I listened to Arthur Shawcross, and I almost tapped out on that one.

But I'm really glad I didn't because I enjoy hearing all of the banter, all of the joking. I love hearing Fergie talk about his love for the... Kentucky Wildcat because I lost my dad in 2015 and he was the biggest Kentucky Wildcat fan. And so in the middle of all the morbid stories, I love getting those little reminders of my sweet daddy. So thank you guys for everything you do. You guys have grown so much and I love it and I'm so happy for you guys. So keep up the good work and have a good one. All right. Love it. That was a very, very nice and kind of heartfelt. Yeah.

It really was. But I needed to correct it's Illinois. Oh, is it? Okay. Just, you know. That's a good correction. Yeah. Hi, this is Vivian.

I'm calling in regard to the podcast. I just listened to the episode about Gertrude. Sean Isoki, I am so surprised when you were talking about the town, Marshalltown, because that is where I live, Marshalltown, Iowa. So when you said that her daughter had moved to Marshalltown, Iowa, I was. I like dropped my jaw and I was like oh my gosh I live in this town so it was just something cool to like find out about so you can definitely guess I'm going to Google everything that happened during that time when she lived here so thank you so much again for the podcast you guys are doing awesome appreciate it so that's been some time ago but that gertrude banishefsky episode was brutal it really was that's one of the you know we talk about some stick with us some don't that was a sticker oh it was You know, the woman before mentioned Tommy Lynn Sells, Arthur Shawcross, those are stickers. Yes.

But so was Gertrude. Hi, Mike and Gibby. This is Haley from Butler, Pennsylvania. I'm just sort of a new listener, but I've been listening to like all of your podcasts, all of your episodes on TrueCom all the time. I haven't jumped over the unsolved yet, but I was just listening to your murders that created laws episode. and about the Jesse to Meridaquay, I don't know how to say it, but about his father feeding him and his brother their pet rabbits. The same thing actually happened to my cousin, their father.

I don't know why, but he killed their rabbits and he fed them to them, but he did not tell them that that was their rabbits. I think he lied and said that they died and he buried them, but they didn't find out until a lot longer later. They were so scarred from it. But I just want to thank you guys for all of your hard work on everything. And I want to give a shout out as an early wedding present to my fiancé, Mike. We're getting married on August 8th.

And I just wanted to say, I love you, Mike. And hopefully you guys will air this sometime around then. But thank you guys and keep your own time ticking. Well, a little earlier. Yeah. You know, in advance. But I'll say this. He must be a pretty good guy.

His name's Mike. You can't go wrong with Mike. How can you go wrong with that? But thanks for that. Hello. I am one of your subscribers. My name's Lisa Llewellyn. I'm just curious if you guys have ever heard the story out of Tacoma, Washington,

on the police chief, David Brain and his murder of his wife in front of his children, et cetera. It's a pretty incredible story, and I think you'd love it. But anyway, I just want to say, I love your show. I listen to it almost daily. keep up the good work. You guys are funny and insightful and interesting. Thank. Bye. Well, thank you, Lisa. Lisa's actually been with us a long time, so it's good to hear from her. That one doesn't jump out at me. I probably, once I started researching it, would remember it.

But check it out. You know I'm going to. Absolutely. So we'll see where that goes. Gives, we had some mailbag quite a bit. Eva Maria and Haley Orr sent us some goodies from Kununurra Western Australia. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. Coosies, shot glasses, Tim Tams, which my daughter's already ate, by the way. You won't see those. No, I know. My daughter's grabbed them right away. Yeah.

They love Tim Tams. Yes, they do. So we appreciate that. We got some homemade soap from Teresa Bruner. Awesome. And her business, Dirty Girl Flair. Dirty girl. Yeah.

Check that out. And we got some T-shirts and spa kits from Melissa Smoke. Yeah. And she sent a. long letter, but what I found interesting was that all the proceeds from her business called rogue aromas and apparel go towards her dog rescue efforts. Really? Like 100%.

Wow. According to her, they have about 40 dogs. Most of them rescued from death, which is amazing. So, I mean, you talk about a worthy cause. That's a worthy cause. We know how we love our animals. Yeah, we sure do. But we appreciate all the things that people send in.

Sure. So before we end the show, I do want to give the shoutouts that would have gone on the unsolved episode. Right. We had Christy Arrington. Hey, Arrington. Rachel. What's going on, Rachel? Cindy Daytrip.

Hey, day trip. Tabitha Cross. What's going on, Tabith? Loretta Myers. Hey, Redda. Greg. Greg. Mm-hmm.

Okay. Villia Valeranta. Oh, Valeranta. Beth. Beth. Hey, Beth. Holly McKean. What's going on, McKean?

Outdoorsman, Jamie. Well, thank you, outdoorsman. Emily Hagan. Hey, Emily. Alice Albrink. Hey, thanks, Alice. Kelly Andrews. Hey, what's going on, Kelly?

Jacqueline Botello. Botelo. Cat Hales. Hey, cat. Kirsty. Thank you. Jenny Paige. Hey, Jenny.

Ryan Cooley. Hey, Ryan. Anissa. Haleigh. Anisa. Mm-hmm. I like that. Dawn.

Don. Perry Spencer. What's going on, Perry? Kate. Hey, thank you, Kate. Nefarious Allison. Well, hey, thanks, Nefarious Allison. Absolutely.

And then last but not least, Darren Scott, those are all our new Patreon supporters. Thanks, Aaron. And then on PayPal, we had Rosemary Overrell. Hey, Rosemary. Michelle Holman. What's going on, Michelle? Kathy Snyder. Hey, Kathy.

And Ashley McLean. Well, thank you, Ashley. So a little different. A lot of shoutouts on this episode because we couldn't do an unsolved. Right. But that's it, Gibbs, for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.