True Crime All The Time - Susan Smith

Episode Date: May 7, 2018

In late 1994, Susan Smith became one of the most hated women in the world. The case of her two missing young sons hit the national news after Susan told police that an African-American male had kicked her out of her car and taken off with it while her kids were still inside. Volunteers came from all over to help in the search for the missing kids. But within weeks, the true story would come out and it would shock the world.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss this tragic case of a mother who committed the ultimate sin. What would drive a mother to murder her two young sons? We will delve into Susan's background and upbringing. We also talk about her relationships, including one that was faltering prior to the tragedy that may have been the catalyst for Susan taking the fateful actions she did.You can help support the show by going to patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationCredits:Writing/Research - Maggie DobschuetzSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

One and welcome to episode 77 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Give me what is the word? What's happening, man? How are you doing? I'm doing good, man. I am ready to record a new episode. Same here. Now, by the time this episode comes out, Gibbs, you and I will be on our way back from CrimeCon. We will be. We will have met a ton of awesome people. I know it. Maybe. Maybe. I'm just joking. Of course we will. You know we will. Hopefully we didn't make asses out of ourselves. And hopefully we get to come home on Sunday and you're not in the slammer and I have to bail you out. Man, that'd be rough again.

Yeah, because you didn't pay me back for the last time. You know, I mean, what's friends for? This tab, man, we got to talk about your tab. Your tab is growing. You need to pay it off in chunks. Come on now. But we have some new Patreon supporters. That's always good. It's always good. So let's give some shoutouts.

Lisa A. Randy Dreheim. Randy Dreheim. Yep. Cool name. It is. Megan Nash. I like that too.

I'm sure Megan's happy that you like her name. I always liked the first name Megan. I thought it was a good name. All right. Let's just put it out there. People like it when you just put it out there, man. I know. Whatever's rolling around in that dome of yours,

just let it. fly. We had Richard Williams, Aaron McCurdy. Oh, the McCurdy. Rachel Amore's Santos. Oh, that was a tough one for you to do. Yeah. Yeah, that's a cool hyphenated. Very cool name. Carrie. Just carry? No last name. Like the song, Carrie? What song's that? Maybe it's Keary. Yeah. I knew as soon as I asked you, you were going to be like, I don't know. Now, if you said the movie carry, I would understand. It's not spelled that way. Yeah.

It's more like an Irish carry. Oh, okay. K-E-R-R-R-Y. Yeah, R. Did you say R like a pirate? It's like an Irish pirate. An Irish pirate. Yes.

We had Richard Lineris. Cool. So we appreciate all that new support. We do. We don't have as many this week because we are taping very early. We are. Getting ready. to go to CrimeCon.

But if we go back into the Vault Gibbs, this week we selected Megan Joyce. Hey, there's another Megan. Another Megan. Spelled differently even. That's why I like it. You can do it many different ways. There is a lot of different ways to spell it.

But appreciate it, Megan. Yeah, we do appreciate it. Megan's been with us a long time, long time supporter. We appreciate all the new support, all the people that stick with us month after month, helping us put out this podcast. Yeah. And I don't want to leave out, because I think sometimes I do Gibbs, all of our friends on social media.

Man, they do such a great job. They really do. You know, we put out the posts on Facebook and Twitter. You know, there's so much sharing a Facebook post, retweeting. People don't realize how much that helps. It really does. And then got to appreciate every one of our admins and that keep the sites clean, keep them moving along and everything. Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, they've grown so much that you and I just can't, there's no way we could handle that. No, so I appreciate them very much. So big shout out to Maggie for the writing and research on this episode. Yeah, good job, Max. Always appreciated. And make sure you check out true crime all the time unsolved. Yeah, it's a good one. Right now, there's an episode out on Amy Mahalovic, pretty famous unsolved case. right here in Ohio.

From our home state of Ohio. And it's out now. So if you are at CrimeCon and you're driving home right now and you're listening to this episode, it was nice to meet you. And I'm sorry for whatever Gibby did. Whatever happened, you know, just remember what happens in CrimeCon stays at CrimeCon. I think it was the eighth shot of Patron. Was that what did it?

That was the line where you went from Fun Gibby to. to what the what the what the WTF yeah he just made homemade chaps out of what he was wearing yeah it was really strange all right Gibbs let's get into today's episode all right we're talking about Susan Smith oh here it comes and talking about famous cases cases that hit the media and took the world by storm I mean this was one of those cases I sure remember it. And we know why it did, right? There are some subjects that they grab people, they captivate people, they upset people, right,

to such a degree that they follow these cases. They want to know what happens to these people. I have to think Gibbs, back in the 90s, you know, when this case happens, Susan Smith had to become one of the most hated women in the world. if not person, just in general. Now, I think people loathed her. Oh, I think it's, it was on the same level as the Casey Anthony and the. Yeah, that's a very good comparison.

Yeah. I mean, the difference is Casey Anthony got off. No, no, but I just mean the, the, the how the public just couldn't stand her. And the same with the Jody. Arias. Arias. So we'd start off talking about Susan Lee von Smith was born to Linda and Harry Vaughan. September 26th, 1971.

She was their only daughter. Susan's mom was a stay-at-home mom, wife and mother, and her father was a firefighter. And they lived in Union, South Carolina. Her parents met in 1960. Her dad, Harry, at the time, was 20 years old. Her mom, Linda, was 17 and pregnant from a prior relationship with another man. That's not usually how a relationship. starts. I'm sure many have, but you'd have to say Gibbs, it's a little out of the norm.

I would say so. Because they end up getting married and Linda would give birth to Michael. They would have Susan and then they would have another son together named Scotty. And the marriage was said to have been Rocky, you know, not always full of love and happiness. And maybe it went beyond Rocky. Maybe it went too dangerous. Maybe it went to that level because it was said that her father would become so enraged that he would threaten to not only kill himself, but kill his wife, Linda, as well. Wow. It was alleged that he was a very violent, angry man, that he was an alcoholic.

And then he had this thing in his head that his wife, Linda, was always cheating on him. Don't really know if that's true or not. but this is, you know, allegedly what he thought. The only reason we bring it up is to talk about Susan's childhood. You know all of this played some type of a factor in her having a less than what I would call leave it to Beaver childhood. Susan and her brother Scotty were constantly in fear of their father. What he may do to their mother. And we've talked about this before Gibbs.

It's not good. It's not good for parents to be fighting like that. arguing, being physical in front of the children. Never. Now, her older brother, Michael, had issues as well. When Susan was just about three years old, he tried to kill himself. And he would spend a lot of time in and out of hospitals, treatment centers, dealing with mental illness.

So you take all of these things together and people would say later on that, you know, Susan was a very sad child. This is what they remembered. She was not happy. And a lot of people said that she was disassociated. It was like she lived in a dream world. Yeah. Well, it's probably what she had to build up in her head to separate out what was going on.

Right. But Susan was close with her dad. And her parents ended up getting a divorce after 17 years of marriage when Susan is six. And this affected her dad. to the point where he started drinking even more. He fell into a deep depression. And just five weeks after the divorce, Susan's father, Harry, committed suicide.

And what happened was he and Linda got into a fight. She called the police on him. And when they showed up, they witnessed him hitting Linda, Susan's mom. And apparently the police didn't take him away for this. Right? He had even broken a window to try to get into the house. They didn't arrest him.

He begged them to arrest him, take him, so that he wouldn't hurt anyone. But they didn't. So, you know, he shot himself. But apparently he didn't die from the gunshot wound. So he called 911 and he was taken to a hospital and he died there while they were trying to save his life. So it's just a very strange situation. He's trying to commit suicide.

It's unsuccessful. And then you know from the fact, Gibbs, he called 911. What's that mean to you? To me, it means, you know, he wanted to live. Right, exactly. But then he dies while they're trying to save his life. So I mentioned the fact that Susan was very close to her father because, you know, this caused her to go into a depression.

But it wasn't the same with Susan's mom, Linda. You know, she was over it. She would marry just weeks. after the divorce was finalized. And she married a wealthy man named Bev Russell. He owned an appliance store. He had some kids from a previous marriage. But he was also a South Carolina State Republican executive committeeman and a member

of the board which advised the Christian coalition. So this was a guy that, you know, had money, was a business owner and was like a pillar of the community. Kind of a powerful guy. Pretty much the opposite. of Susan's dad Harry, if you think about it. You know, I never heard of a man's name, Bev. You know, I don't know that I have either.

I'm this is much different than your Trixie comment about the fact that you had never heard of a woman named Trixie. Yeah, I got all kind of trouble for that. You did, because we've got a multitude of fans named Trixie. Yeah, well, they used the longer version. Trixie Lynn? So I'm just saying. I'm talking about her specifically, but yeah, now I'm with you on this.

I know a lot of Beverly's that are women. Maybe it's short for Beavis? Really? I was just saying. Do you know anybody named Beavis other than the Beavis from Beavis and Butthead? Well, I had to come from somewhere. They just didn't make up Beavis. They could have.

No, they had to get it from something. Well, anyway. Belvedere. Belved... There's an L in front of it. I'm just trying to make it work out, man. No, I think his name was probably Beverly. I really do.

Because now that I think about it, I might... have heard of some men being named Beverly. Really? That's interesting. The Bev part was kind of throwing me off. Yeah. But now I think there have been some... Now, we've just lost our Carney audience.

Yes. We lost probably some of our Trixie audience. I'm sorry, come back. Now we've lost our whole male Beverly audience. Which is one? Probably 23% of our whole audience. Come on, Gibbs. Don't leave.

I'm just saying I've never heard of... a man. Let's say it's uncommon. It's uncommon. Yeah. I would agree with you. I didn't agree with you on the tricksy, but I'm agreeing with you on this one. So because of this, Susan moved in to a bigger house and a fancier part of the city.

Well, it's definitely a lifestyle change. Yeah, a huge life. I mean, it's like the Jeffersons. You want to just sing it, don't you? Moving on up. Yeah. There's no doubt that Susan had a tough time dealing with the loss of her dad. You know, this is going into her teen years.

And she had a strange relationship with her stepdad, Bev. She desperately wanted his attention, his approval. You know, she wanted that father figure. And apparently, as she got older, she started to compete with her mom for the attention of her stepdad. There is a story that alleges that when Susan was 16, she's on one end of the couch. Bev is on the other. She crawls into his lap, falls asleep. When she wakes up, he is fondling her breasts and her genitals. She pretends to be asleep during, I mean, what you would call Gibbs a molestation. Yeah. If this is a true story, I'm using the word alleged because I don't know,

but she apparently did file a complaint against him and it caused a big rift in the family. Well, I can only imagine. Yeah, that it would. Politically as well. I think Susan's mom kicked him out of the house, but then eventually let him back in. But Susan goes to her guidance counselor school in 1988. And she tells the guidance counselor that she's being molested. And because of this, the guidance counselor is, you know, obligated to report this.

So now there's a second set of accusations against Bev. But no charges are ever brought against this guy. There was some kind of deal made, but the details of it were sealed and never made public. Well, I think because of his position of power that the authorities came together with him and, you know, had a discussion on how things will be going forward and how this would not occur anymore and then just put that conversation, you know, in a formal document and sealed it up. Yeah, I don't know how it happened or what happened, but it wouldn't surprise me because I think a lot of things happen like that with people in power. So Susan had gone through some things

as a child, but she did really well in school through all grade levels, you know, even into high school. She was involved in clubs. She volunteered with the Special Olympics. She volunteered with the elderly. She worked as a candy striper at a hospital. I did that as well, Gibbs. Candy striper? Yep. Do you wear the candy striper outfit? I hate to admit it, but I actually did. Oh my gosh. So my mom is a nurse. Yes. And she wanted me to be a doctor. Yeah. And for a time, I wanted to be a doctor, too, until I realized they didn't want to go to school that long. So for a whole summer,

I went to work with her at the hospital and wore the little outfit. They have a different one for males. I'm glad you cleared that up. They do. Okay. So no skirt. No, no skirt. They had a different one for males basically look like a pajamas if I remember really were they uh pink pinstripe they were it was like white and red pinstripe yeah and I would wheel people around in wheelchairs and take them from here to there and did you make the like car sound when you wheeled them around no no I don't think so but I did get to see a lot of interesting I got to see um open heart surgery yeah uh I remember them letting me in the room oh no no not like a Seinfeld episode no no there was no junior your men's involved. I remember seeing them remove varicose veins. Cool. And put them in a jar.

Yeah. I thought that was the weirdest thing I'd ever seen. That is cool. That was stranger than open heart surgery to me. Yeah. So it was an interesting experience. It didn't put me off being a doctor. It was later on when I realized just how much school I would have to go through that put me off of it. So now we know you wanted to be a doctor. And that was a candy striper. One time you, in you another podcast. You mentioned you wanted to be an attorney. I did want to be an attorney. That was actually later in life. You had some nice goals out there. I also wanted to be a major league baseball player.

And there's that. Those were the three. All right. And I didn't do any of those. No, you did not. I wound up with you. I know. But you got a Harley, so. I got a Harley. Life's good. That same year, 88, Susan gets a job at the Wind Dixie in town. We're in South Carolina. you know there's going to be a Winn-Dixie. Absolutely. Good old Winn-Dixie.

She was a cashier, then was promoted to head cashier, and then she became bookkeeper. That's the order of progression. But while she was working at the Winn-Dixie, she was secretly dating a married man. Happens a lot. It does, but she's young. She becomes pregnant, and she has an abortion. So right there sounds like a made-for-TV movie. A little bit. A little bit.

She's also dating another co-worker at the same time. Oh, love triangle or whatever. Now, when this married guy found out, he ended the relationship. That's kind of funny. He's married. But she doesn't want him seeing somebody else. Yeah, yeah. This caused another depression, and she tried to overdose using pills.

Because we go back to her family, right? Her brother had tried to commit suicide. her father had tried to commit suicide. She had a lot of this in her life. It would later come out that at the age of 13, she had tried to do the same thing. She had tried to overdose using pills. So we get to 1989,

her senior year of high school. And people remembered Susan as someone that was upbeat. She was grounded. She always tried to look her best. She dressed, you know, very nicely. But Susan had a lot of insecurity. And, you know, I think she was pretty good at hiding them. One of these was this continued need for a father figure.

Well, you can see that by dating married man, you know, that's the type of... An older guy, kind of all falls in line. Absolutely, yeah. She probably liked that song from George Michael. There was a couple of them. You're going to have to be a little more specific. Father figure? Oh, father figure, yeah.

Yeah. Actually, I wasn't smart enough to get that. No, I feel bad. Not that bad, but I feel a little bad. But Susan is able to keep her job at Win Dixie. And when she gets back to work, she starts to become close to another crow worker there named David Smith. They went to school together. They knew each other.

David at the time had a girlfriend. But he ended that relationship so that he could be with Susan. And we have to talk a little bit about David Smith. He also had somewhat of a trouble. childhood. His mother was working. She was going to school. It was said that his parents didn't have a great marriage. David's mother was very religious. And his father would come to not like that fact that she was very religious. And David didn't like it. He didn't like how religious she was because it then morphed into her being very strict. He didn't like that. So he moves in with his grandmother when he's 17 years old. So some

of 1990, Susan and David are dating, but I don't know how serious the relationship was. There was talk that it was casual dating and maybe not as serious on the part of David. And I don't think that would be unusual in some relationships Gibbs, where the boy maybe doesn't think it's as serious as the girl. It can also happen the other way around. Oh, yeah. I think it happens a lot. I had some relationships that I thought were more serious than the girl I was dating did. You were ready to marry him on the date number two? No, it wasn't that. You had the ring in the pocket?

No. You sure? Not that serious. I bet she started thinking about getting the ring. No, this was like high school. You know, like serious for high school. Okay. But I thought it was more serious.

The girl thought it was more casual. You already had her name written on your... Like maybe she could date the football player. Meanwhile, you're describing her name on your notebook. I love you, Peggy. Trixie. Her name was Trixie. But then Susan finds out that she's pregnant early in 1991.

So this relationship just became a lot more serious. And the two get married. And they're going to have this baby together. There was some sadness on the part of Susan. I think she had aspirations. She wanted to go to college. She had a future in mind that she thought maybe was now going to be. be derailed a little bit by having this child. Susan's mother, Linda, and her stepfather, Bev,

they were not pleased at the marriage. First of all, they weren't pleased that she was pregnant. But then also, Linda's mother wasn't happy about the fact that David wasn't rich, didn't come from a well-to-do family. Now, David had an older brother named Danny who died in 1991, and David and Susan got married just 11 days after his death. I think in large part because Susan was pregnant and they wanted to get married as quickly as possible because of that fact. So they get married. They end up moving in with David's grandma. Three months after they're married, David's dad attempts suicide.

And there is a lot of suicide attempts in her life. In her life. And this is on David's side of the family now. but Susan is the one that finds him and he had taken a bunch of pills. This ends the marriage of David's parents and his mom moves away. Susan would work all the way up to the time that her son Michael Daniel Smith was born in October of 91. But their marriage was rocky.

You know, they're young. They have a baby. They're not making a lot of money. And it was said that Susan liked to spend money. remember she at a certain point in her life had grown up in a wealthier household. She was accustomed at that point to having certain things. They weren't making the money to buy those things, but apparently she was spending the money.

She was getting loans from her mother, but her spending caused a lot of, you know, fighting between Susan and David. David also had some issues with Susan's mother, Linda. Number one, she didn't really like him. Number two, she tried to control them. She would tell them how they should raise their son, Michael. Now, we have to talk about the fact that they still work together.

And at a certain point, David is Susan's boss, which seems to me to be a conflict of interest. In today's world, it would definitely be. You would think so. I'm not sure about the Wind Dixie in South Carolina in the early 1990s, but in most places, that is a conflict of interest. But it wasn't just that. I mean, you know, it was said that they were constantly cheating on each other. They would break up.

They would get back together. I mean, this relationship is all over the map. And they were broken up in 1992 when Susan started dating an old boyfriend, but they would get back together. Then they would break up again. this was happening on a very regular basis. But then Susan gets pregnant again in late 1992. So the couple make the decision that they need to reconcile.

They need to make this work. They need to be a family. They end up buying a house with money for a down payment that they got from Susan's mom and stepdad, which you know is going to cause issues down the road. Borrowing money from family Gibbs is one thing. borrowing it from people that don't like you in the case of David and Susan's mom, that's going to cause some issues. It definitely will cause issues.

Susan was not happy during the pregnancy with her second child. She was not happy with the way she looked, with the weight that she was gaining during the pregnancy. She was also not happy with David. And David didn't know how to handle this. And he allegedly ended up cheating on her with somebody from, the store that they worked at. There is a lot of love going on on that store.

There is, it's like a Hollywood squares slash dating game. I wonder if they got like a secret aisle, like meet me an aisle 21A. Because there's no 21A. Yeah. I need you to stay over tonight and help me restock the eggs.

Is that code? Yeah. Okay. But Susan gives birth to their second child, Alexander Tyler Smith, in August of 1993. And it gives you. Again, they make the decision that they need to reconcile.

They need to make the family work. This is not going well in my eyes, Gibbs, at all. I don't think anybody listening or anybody that would look at this would say this is a healthy relationship. No, I don't feel anything healthy about this relationship at all. It's almost like they're just staying together for the kids. Now, there are a lot of people that do that. There is. I don't know if that's the best thing to do, but people do it.

But this is a very rocky relationship. They would break up just three weeks after the baby is born. I mean, this is like a ninth grade relationship. Yeah, very high schoolish. It is. You kiss Susie Smith. I'm breaking up with you. That's right.

And at this point, they decide that they need to end it. They need to get a divorce. David moves back in with his grandmother. Susan gets a new job as a bookkeeper. And she liked her job. She gets promoted to be. to be the assistant to the secretary for the president and CEO of the company. And at one point, she attracts the attention of one of the sons of the CEO.

His name was Tom. He's 27 years old. He's popular. He's attractive. He's rich. And he's single. Everything. Her mama told her she needed.

Exactly. Now, Dave and Susan are not technically divorced yet when she starts dating Tom in 1994. But this relationship, it doesn't work out. They would date on and off again, but it wasn't, I think in Tom's eyes, I don't think it was a real relationship. It was very, very casual. I thought, I think Susan thought it was something more. Now, in the meantime, David has rented a house so that he can be near Susan and the boys. He's helping to take care of their sons. Sounds like he's being a really good dad in a very tough situation. And at one point, she gets a letter from Tom completely severing their relationship.

And she was mad about that. You know, she's working. She's taking care of her young sons. She's busy. She's very unhappy. She thought she was going to be with Tom. He doesn't want her. She falls into a very deep depression again. Yeah. Start skipping work, starts to drink. And this is all leading up to October 25th, 1994. Susan takes her sons to daycare and then she goes to work. She had lunch that day with some coworkers and Tom. Tom was even there at the lunch. She ends up having a meeting with Tom that doesn't go very well. Tom says that he's not interested in a relationship, but they could be friends. The old we could be friends still. The dreaded friends on. Yeah. But he makes it clear that they are never going to have an intimate relationship again.

Susan does not deal with this rejection very well at all. And around 8 p.m., Susan took her sons, put them in their car seats, and she started to drive around town. You know, she's very upset by being rejected by Tom. She doesn't know how to deal with these emotions. And that's a tough thing for a newly single, to be single or single mom when you have kids, right? Because you're going to attract certain type of guys. There's going to be certain type of guys that are not going to be, want to take on that responsibility that you have. Yeah, they don't want to play daddy or stepdaddy.

They're just not going to want to do that. Some might act like they want that just because they're trying to get with you. but then as soon as they do, they're going to move on. But so it's tough. And this guy was straight up with her and said, hey, this is not for me. Well, I think at some point he figured out that, and I don't know if imbalanced is the right word, but he figured out that, you know, she just had too many issues. Yeah.

That he didn't want to deal with. Yeah, too much going on in her life. That's what I got. But at least he was up front about it, you know, not play. bring her along. Yeah, not play with her heart, not play, you know, not mess with her head. I agree. The way that he could have. It's about an hour later, around nine, there's a woman inside of her home relaxing. She lives about a quarter of a mile from John D. Long Lake. She's reading the news when all of a sudden she hears a noise on her porch. She goes outside and she sees a woman sitting on her porch crying. And the woman asks her for help and

said someone had her kids and her car. She told this woman, a black man took my kids and my car. And they called 911. And this is what she would tell 911. She stopped at a red light and a black man jumped in told her to drive. He said, just drive or I'll kill you. She drove about four miles until he made her stopped by a sign by the lake, he pushed her out of the car, and drove away saying he was not going to hurt her kids. Then she ran, found the house where the woman lived, and that's where she was calling from. So this is her story. So after the 911 call, Susan asked the woman if she could use the bathroom and if she could call her mom. Then she called her stepdad. And then the last person that she called was David. By the time she called David, police were already in action. They were trying to

find her car with her children inside of it. They didn't question the story that Susan gave at the beginning. They immediately just went into action trying to find her kids and bring them home safely. She stayed at this woman's house until about midnight. Then she was moved to her mom's house. But something very strange happened. She was having a conversation with David and Susan told David that Tom may come to see her and she didn't want David to be mad. That seems like a very strange conversation to have in light of what has just happened to your kids. Yeah, I think it's definitely strange. It's almost like she's not even thinking about her sons at this point.

She's thinking about Tom and David and... Man, I think she's thinking, will Tom come see me? After he hears what has happened? Yeah, maybe he'll come console me. Either way, it's a very odd conversation to have. in light of what has happened or what has just happened. So police begin their investigation. They have divers come search the lake.

They even brought in some heat sensing helicopters. The divers didn't find anything during their first search. But the police made up a sketch from the details that they were given by Susan. And it was a black male appeared to be about 40 years old. He was wearing a dark hat, a dark shirt. and a plaid jacket. So then we get to the next day. Police are still searching the lake.

They're interviewing people. By this point, the Adam Walsh Center has gotten involved. They helped by getting pictures of the two boys out to the public, you know, printing up flyers. And we get back to Tom. Tom eventually does call Susan because he hears what's happened. He wants to see how she's doing. But apparently she only wanted to talk about the two of them getting. getting back together. And Tom tells her, you know, what are you talking about? You should be thinking

about your kids. Absolutely. Why are you worried about us? It would be the strangest conversation ever. And he would only make that one phone call. He would never come to see Susan, even though Susan would make phone calls to people that Tom knew asking them when Tom was going to come see her. So I think what you said Gibbs really makes a lot of sense. I think she was expected. Tom to, you know, hear the news of what happened, come running into her arms. Yeah. And they would be back together. But it doesn't happen.

No. And this news story goes from local to national very fast. Yes, goes up fast. We talked about how big of a story this was and would become. And Susan and David go on TV, make a plea for their sons to be returned. I want to say to my babies. Your mama loves you so much. And your daddy, this whole families love you so much.

And you guys have got to be strong. I mean, they've got people everywhere looking for them. I mean, you can hear the helicopters out there. But they haven't seen anything. And it's just, it's crazy. And it's been since 9 o'clock last night. And I really thought that when it got down, I, they would find them just in a heartbeat.

But all I'm doing is just praying and just keeping my faith that they're going to be okay. So three different little snippets. In the first one, sounds like she's crying. And the other two, not so much. But the audio really doesn't do it justice. And I've watched this, I don't know how many times, Gibbs. And I don't know if I'm jaded because I know the outcome of the story. but when I look at this video, she's not crying.

There's no tears. Yeah. And it was either the second or third snippet, it's almost as if she had a very small smile on her face. Like her mouth was turned up on the corners. It almost made it look like she was smiling. It's very odd. Now, you and I talk about the fact that it's very hard to judge people in these type of situations, how they should react. But man, I just didn't see what I thought I would see from a woman

whose two children had been abducted. Yeah, it was kind of disappointing. No, knowing the end of the story, it makes sense. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But I mean, you know, as we're doing this, I'm looking at archive photos from back then. And one of the photos I'm looking at, you know, I can see where she's kind of, I wanted to say the word, it's kind of like a smirk. Yeah, it's, smile probably wasn't the best. Smirk is probably a much better, a much more descriptive term. But this is the second day. Now, Susan was interviewed by the police for about six hours. And they wanted her to go over every minute detail. And the sheriff even called in some folks to come and talk to Susan. One was a man by the name of David Caldwell. He was the director of the

forensic sciences lab for the state enforcement division. Both Susan and David took polygraphs that were given to them by the FBI. David's polygraph came back clean. Good. But Susan's was inconclusive. And apparently the biggest deception came from the question of her being asked if she knew where her kids were. And when they told her about the results, she said that she was worried that she had failed the polygraph. And she wouldn't just take one. She would take multiple polygraphs. David Caldwell came in. He interviewed her three times. And he started to find out that her story didn't sink. She was slipping up on some of the details. You know, she said she had gone to Walmart, but no one had seen her. At a certain point,

point, authorities started to think that she was not telling the truth. And even the authorities would come out and say that they thought her cries were not real. They thought she was faking that part. Because again, there was no, there was no tears. And you can see that plain as they in some of the videos. Authorities asked the FBI for help. They wanted them to develop a profile of a mother that would kill her kids. And it, it feels. fit Susan very well. We're talking about someone in their 20s who was depressed, had suicidal tendencies, was experiencing rejection from a male lover, Tom. And one thing that the profile said was that the suicidal inclination could turn into murder of the children because the mother, during the act of

killing her kids would see them as an extension of herself rather than separate people. You know, she wouldn't see them as her kids. It would be an extension of herself. Or of him, the ex. Not in this case, but I mean, I've heard that before. No, yeah. Yeah. But I don't know how mad she is at David at this point. I think, I think it's more about the rejection from Tom than it is anything with David. I could be wrong. Oh, I think it's all circled around Tom. A lot of it, yeah. You know, and how maybe if she didn't have kids, he'd want to be with her.

They could be together. Yes. Yeah, and you alluded to that early on. I thought it was very astute, word of the day. I'm that type of guy. You are that. You're very astute. I'm astute.

I'm astutish. You're the most astutist person I know. But you have all these people searching for the children, but you have the authority starting to take a very hard look at suit. And the local newspaper ran a story which talked about how Susan's story didn't match up, that there were discrepancies in it. And the paper comes out in this story basically stating or hypothesizing what a lot of people were thinking, but no one really wanted to say. Susan wasn't doing herself any favors. It wasn't, you know, besides going on TV a few times, it wasn't like she was trying to really help.

You know, she had the chance to meet with the father of a poly class who had been abducted. She said no. And then at some point, you know, whether it's the story in the paper or the fact that many people in the community thought it would be very tough for a black male in that area to be driving around with two white kids and no one be able to find him. Not one witness. Right. Not one person saw that.

And I think the community does start to turn on Susan Smith. And at a certain point gives, I think the police just realized after investigating that Susan was not telling the truth. They just had to prove what really had happened to the children. Now, while all of this is going on, you know, David Caldwell had interviewed her several times. and he had developed his own profile on Susan, found that she was a very cunning woman who would do whatever it took to succeed, and that she was extremely upset about how her relationship with Tom had ended. And I think Caldwell starts to develop the theory that you've already alluded to, which is she may have killed her two sons because she wanted to be. rid of them because she thought that would mean she could be with Tom. Yeah. And then Tom would give her the life that she felt she deserved. Right. So it's almost a double whammy, right? Wanting to be with Tom,

but there's a aspect of greed in there as well because Tom's rich. Tom's well off. Yeah. She wanted some form of opulent lifestyle. Yeah. Because she had seen it. She had experienced it. She didn't have it with David. But I believe that she thought she could have it with Tom. Well, I think it goes back to how bad her childhood was. And then she saw how, I mean, she didn't have a great childhood with her stepdad, but it was, the lifestyle was a whole lot better. And she got accustomed to that lifestyle of power and wealth. Yeah, the house was nicer. The neighborhood was nicer. And then getting with David, she was kind of declining. But with Tom, you know, again, she was back into the, uh, that upper class mix and that's what she wanted.

They had a number of press conferences where Susan would make pleas, you know, through the media for the return of her boys. More than eight days since Susan Smith claims a carjacker stole her two babies. What everyone hoped would be a joyous appearance by Susan and David Smith becomes yet another anguished plea. I would like to say to whoever has my children that they please. I mean, please bring them home to us where they belong. So that was eight days in.

Police are still interviewing Susan. They're trying to get her to, you know, be forthright about what happened. But she's not telling them anything. They even go to America's Most Wanted, Adam Walsh, to do a segment about the missing boys. And it was said Gibbs that they even went as far as to. make up a newspaper article about a young mother who killed her kids, got a short prison term, and then got out and went on to marry a rich doctor. They thought that this would help her confess, thinking that she would get out of prison

in relatively short time and be able to go on with her life and marry Tom. In the next day, nine days in, it's November 3rd, 1995. Susan and David were scheduled to be on three morning news shows. She was on CBS this morning, and she was asked if she had anything to do with the disappearance of her sons. And she came out and said, I did not have anything to do with the abduction of my children. And David backed her up. He said he thought she was innocent as well.

Later that day, they're interrogated by police again. She's asked to tell her story, the same story. and she does. Then the sheriff comes in and he basically flat out says that she's lying. He knows she's lying. The sheriff said that they would pray and he told her it was time to tell the truth. And this is when Susan Smith finally breaks. Her head drops. She starts to cry, says she's ashamed and she asked for a gun so that she could kill herself. And she tells the sheriff that my children are not all right. And when she finally confesses, she says, when I left my home on Tuesday, October 25th, I was emotionally distraught. I didn't want to live anymore. I felt like things could never get any worse. I was going to

ride around a little while and then go to my mom's. But as I rode around, I felt even more anxiety about not wanting to live. I felt I couldn't be a good mom anymore, but I didn't want my children to grow up without a mom. I felt that I had to end our lives to protect us from any grief or harm. I had never felt so lonely and so sad in my entire life. I was in love with someone very much, but he didn't love me and never would. I had a very difficult time accepting that, but I had hurt him very much and I could see why he could never love me. When I was at John D. Long Lake, I had never felt so scared and unsure as I did then. I wanted to end my life so bad and was in my car ready to go down that ramp into the water

and I did go part way but I stopped. I went in some more and stopped. I then got out of the car and stood by the car a nervous wreck. Why was everything so bad in my life? I had no questions to these answers. I dropped to the lowest point when I allowed my children to go down the ramp into the water without me. I took off screaming, what have I done? Why did you let this happen? I wanted to turn around so bad and go back, but I knew it was too late. I couldn't believe what I had done. My children, Michael and Alex are with our heavenly father now and I know they will never be heard again. As a mom, that means more than words could ever say. That's a lot to digest, Gibbs. You get it? It's pretty deep.

I mean, the first thing that jumped out at me was saying that she wanted to take her own life, but she didn't want her children to grow up without a mom. Yeah. I get that. Yeah, I know what she's saying. I get that part. Yeah, I mean, she's saying all three of them need to go down together. And if you believe her, she started down that path, but she couldn't do it.

But she let the children go. Yeah, she still let them do it. And then the next biggest part that jumps out at me is saying, that she knows they will never be hurt again. As a mom, that means more than words could ever say. I'm just, I'm floored by that. It's her way of justifying in her head. That what she did was okay.

Was okay. That they, they're in a better place because what I, what I did. Because their life was so awful? Because their life was so awful. Yes. Wow. Instead of saying what she really should have said was, I'm selfish. I was thinking only about me, only about me and my happiness.

and the kids were a distraction, an interference. Yeah, they were in her way of obtaining that happiness. I think if she was going to write something honest, that's what it would have been. Yes. That's why I truly believe. So the divers go out to John D. Long Lake. They would find the car in about 18 feet of water. All of the windows were rolled up.

The doors were closed. And this part's a little tough. but the divers would say that there was a small hand against the glass window and the car seats were hanging upside down. Police would confirm that they found the bodies of the boys and Susan's family was told that she had killed her sons. She was arrested and charged with two counts of murder. Susan Smith has been arrested and will be charged with two counts of murder in connection with the deaths of her children. Michael three and Alexander, 14 months. I mean, you can hear the people in the crowd.

They're gasping. Yeah. As he reads this off. And the townspeople were so upset. As Susan Smith is taken to jail, they are shouting baby killer at her. Well, I mean, she tore the community up. I mean, people were so upset about what happened to these babies, you know, and this individual came and took them.

And I mean, people were looking, people were tensions were high about that. And then to find out she lied about it, that never happened. And then you got to think as a person in that town or, you know, just mean you're sitting here. How could you do that? How could you take innocent babies? Three and 14 months. Yeah. And just let them die like that.

Just let it happen, you know. Yeah, it tore the town up. And not to mention the fact that. that she had blamed it on some unknown black man. Yeah, I mean, so you get a little, you know, race tension in it as well, because that's exactly what she did. She didn't say a white man took my babies. She said a black man took my babies.

Now, during that press conference, authorities confirmed that the boys had been alive when Susan Smith sent the car into the water and they drowned as the car sank. And talking about the black community, they were upset. Rightfully so. Rightfully so. There was no doubt about it. To the point that Susan's brother wrote a letter saying, we apologize to the black citizens of union and hope you don't believe any of the rumors that this was ever a racial issue. And Susan would write a letter to David saying that she was sorry.

But in the letter, she complained about her issues and never once talked about her sons that she had killed and had taken away from David. So you go, I mean, this was a very self-centered, egotistical person. Yeah, if she didn't want the kids, I'm sure David would have taken the kids full time or somebody would have taken the kids. I'm sure he would have because of from everything you read, it sounded like he was trying to be a good. dad. But you're right. If not David, somebody would have taken the kids. I guarantee somebody in her family, his family would have taken those kids, raised those kids, would never been an issue. And she could have went on and, you know, all she needed to do is drop those kids off with her family and go ahead and run away and do her own thing if that's what she really wanted to do.

The funeral for Michael and Alex was held on November 6th. They had to keep the caskets closed because of the water damage to the bodies. That's hard to think about. That's rough, man. They were buried together in a white casket with gold trim, and they were laid to rest next to David's brother. Now, Susan was hell without bail. Her mom and stepdad had the money to hire a lawyer who specialized in death penalty cases, but even with the money they had, they had to mortgage their home. The lawyer's name was David Bruck, and he would enlist the help of a woman named Judith Clark, who also worked on a lot of death penalty cases. She would go on later to work on the defense team of the Unabomber Ted Kaczynski. And they were successful in him avoiding the death penalty. The prosecutor

in the case was a man by the name of Thomas Pope. And he was the youngest prosecutor in South Carolina at the time. He was the son of a sheriff. But he had already handled one murder case that involved a child. It was a case of a father smothering his son, but that case ended up with a plea deal where the father got an eight-year sentence. But the Susan Smith case is going to be different. There was a three-minute hearing on November 5th.

Susan didn't attend. She had waived her right to be there. And then the next hearing was on November 18th. Susan would be made to undergo a bunch of different tests to make sure that she was mentally sound. She was held at the women's correctional facility during this period of time. So she's taking these tests. She's being examined.

But she's also under 24-hour suicide watch. So they're checking on her every 15 minutes. They have a camera inside her cell that is on all the time. Somebody's watching her. And because of that, they didn't turn the light off in her cell. She was only allowed to wear a paper gown. And inside the cell, she had her Bible. a blanket and glasses.

David went to see Susan in in jail three weeks after she confessed. And she told David that she was sorry, but she couldn't tell him why she had done it. And David left that meeting with Susan very angry. I don't know what father wouldn't be angry. And turn the tables, what mother wouldn't be angry with a father in the same situation. Well, absolutely. This is, to me, one of those, it's an unforgivable act. Yeah.

And the fact that she couldn't explain it to him, I mean, she knew what she did at that point. I think she could have explained it to him. She didn't want to explain it because the explanation gives, as we've talked about, what we think it is, is so flimsy. It's so, I mean, not that there would ever be a reason to do that, but there's no way she could tell somebody this is why I did it. Yeah. Because by this point, Gibbs, David knows the whole time, the whole eight, nine days that, you know, he's comforting Susan.

He's standing by her. They're crying together, whatever. It's all farst. What's a farst? Is that like a farce? That's what I said. We said it with an ST on the end of it. No, I didn't.

Oh, you're okay. Did I? I don't know. It's me. Well, let the audience be the judge of that. Yeah. But that's what it was. And that would piss me off too.

because I'm grieving thinking I'm grieving with you. This is the toughest thing either was I have ever had to go through because we just lost our kids. Our kids. The only thing it mattered in our life, our kids, they're gone. And to find out that you knew what happened this whole time. You saw me suffering. You saw me consoling you why I thought you were suffering. You little.

Yep. I get it. I get it. No, that would be tough because at that point, he knows. She knew where the car was the whole time. She knew exactly what had happened. And she let it go on. Yeah.

I'd want to strangle her. I would. It would be very difficult. And it would come out later that the lights were left on on the car. And some people thought that this was so that she could actually see the car sink in the dark. Could have been. Think about that scene. She watched.

She wanted to make sure it went down. Her children die. Before she ran away, screaming it, blaming on somebody else, she wanted to make sure it went to the bottom. So Thomas Pope was not going to give Susan Smith a plea deal. He was seeking the death penalty. He would say that they had proof that this was planned and that this case met the criteria for the death penalty. She had murdered two people during one act and the murders were against children under the age of 11. So I guess that was the aggravating circumstances part of it.

Right. Eleven days later, the judge placed a gag order barring any members of the court releasing info. There was a ban on cameras in the courtroom. You know, this was already a media frenzy, a national media frenzy. I think they were trying to keep it from getting to the O.J. Simpson level, the Menendez brothers level, you know, some of the big cases. The defense hired some experts, and they would say that Susan had a dependent personality disorder. She was not someone that could do things on her own. She was depressed.

Professionals were evaluating her. Now, David didn't wait very long to start divorce proceedings. Can't say I blame me much on that one. Me neither. Susan did not attend, but Tom did. He was there. And he told the court about. the affair that they had. And the divorce was granted, but it wasn't like they had a lot of things

to, you know, settle on. But what I found very strange was that, and I guess it had to go to somebody, but David was given the car that Susan used to drive the boys into the lake. Boy, that'd be rough. That just seemed very strange to me. But something, I guess, had to be done with it. I guess I don't know how I, do you say yes, I'll receive it or you say, you know, just take it, take it somewhere, take it to the junker, take it to the, I don't know. He does have it destroyed, but for him to even have to go through that seems, seems very odd to me. That'd be rough. So Susan's trial starts in July of 95 and the defense tries to strike a plea deal before the trial where Susan would serve 30 years with no parole, but would be let out after 30 years.

But the prosecutor, Thomas Pope, says no, no plea deal. They were going after the death penalty because of, you know, how brutal this case was. I'm sure the national media attention had something to do with it. Susan was eventually deemed able to stand trial. And the jury was picked. It consisted of seven white jurors and five bars. and five black jurors. And I think that's important to point out

only from the standpoint of the racial tension that her made-up story caused. And the trial didn't start on the day that it was supposed to because a bomb threat was called in. They pretty quickly figured out who it was and they arrested the person.

So the trial starts the day after that. The prosecution opens up their case saying that Susan killed her two sons. And the prosecutor was quoted as saying, she begged God to return her children to safety, but she knew the whole time her children were lying dead at the bottom of John D. Long Lake. And they laid out their motive. And it's pretty much what we've already talked about, Gibbs. They talked about the fact that she wanted to be with Tom. And to do this, she felt as if she needed to get rid of her son. They said that Susan wanted to escape from her old life.

She wanted to start a new, happier life with her rich boyfriend. And that wasn't going to happen as long as she had the two kids. The defense said that Susan was disturbed. They talked about her sad upbringing. And they basically said that she snapped. They talked about her depression. They also brought up the molestation by her stepfather. along with the fact that her dad killed himself and the fact that Susan had tried to end her life as well.

You know, they tried to get across to the jury that this was a woman pushed to the edge and that caused her to kill her kid. So they're not saying she didn't do it, right? They are trying to show to the juries that this is a woman that had emotional issues, essentially trying to get her out of the death penalty. I mean, that's all they can do at this point. Yeah, exactly. And she, I mean, she did have a crappy shitty, shitty lifestyle, I mean, upbringing. She did. Right?

I mean, it's no excuse for what she did. Oh, not at all. I'm just saying, but she did have a, I mean. There's probably half of, half the people listening. And one of us maybe could say that, you know, we had a crappy shitty upbringing. Yeah. Compared to some of the individuals that we talk about on true crime all time. Yeah, exactly.

Hers was a bet of roses compared to some of the folks. Now, I'm not discounting it. She did go through some things. Nobody should ever be molested, period. I'm just saying, and I know why the defense is saying what they're, why they're doing this, right? They have to. But it's just. It's a big leap, though, for me, from you lost your dad to suicide, allegedly was molested by your stepfather to killing your kids. Yeah, exactly. That is a... I mean, it's the one job we have. As a parent. Yeah.

It's the number one job you have. Keep your kids safe. You got to do that first, right? Yeah. That's number one. That's it. And then you can work on the making them good people. Yeah.

Making sure they study, good grades. Exactly. But numeral one... Keep them safe. Is keep them safe. Protect them. And it should be the strongest instinct that a mother has. I shouldn't even use the word should.

It is. You know how many moms out there and dads? They sacrifice everything for their kids. Day in, day out. People give up stuff for their kids. That's what you do as a parent. You give up things. We would all love to do this or that.

But we can't do this or that because we decided to hook up one way or the other, have a child. Once we made that decision, we got to own that, you know. And we take care of our kids. You know, doesn't mean you have to stay in an unhappy marriage to take care of the kids. It just means you've got to take care of your kids as the dad or the mom, however you move forward. She couldn't do that. Or she didn't want to do that.

She didn't want to. It's more likely. She didn't want to. But what you were saying just made me think of something, Gibbs, right? You talked about somebody was taking those kids. Yes. Think about all the people out there that can't have kids. Oh.

And they're on a waiting list for adoption or they're. there would have been people lined up. Yeah, I've got family members that paid big time money to try to have kids. Yeah. $30,000. Oh, even higher. Yeah. And, you know, have the opportunity to have those kids.

Are you kidding me? Now, I knew this going in. This was going to be a case that was going to piss everybody off. Not that they don't know about this case. Most people know of the case. Piss me off back then. It pisses me off right now. Right.

So the trial wrapped up on July 22nd. 1995, the jury deliberated for just about two and a half hours before coming back and finding her guilty on both counts of murder. And it was said that Susan bowed her head and cried when the verdict was read. And those tears were probably real because... For the wrong reason. Well, because she's going away. She's lost her freedom. Yeah. I don't think they were tears of sorrow for what happened. I think you're exactly right. Well, I think they were, well, let me, I think there were tears of sorrow for what happened to her. Yes.

But not tears of sorrow for what she did to her children. I think we're both saying the same thing. I just want to. Right. We are. And then you get to the sentencing phase where the decision is going to be made whether or not she's going to be put to death. And the prosecution showed a video of her lying about knowing where her sons were.

They showed videos of her pretending to cry. they also showed a reenactment that they had done of the car rolling into the water and how long it took for the car to sink. Now, you know Gibbs, that would have been very powerful to a jury. It would have been. You are in a reenactment watching what would have happened to those two boys. Yeah, the know that you got to sit there and watch the last breath. It would be tough. Because in the reenactment, it's a little bit tough.

Because in the reenactment, it took six minutes for the car to fill with water before it went, you know, down to the bottom. Remember, all the doors and windows were closed. Six minutes for those kids. Ah, I got choked up a little bit there. The prosecution also showed photos of the boys when they were brought out from the car. They didn't show everything because that would have been pretty traumatic. but they showed parts of arms and legs and... And that'd be rough enough right there.

That would be, yeah. The swelling and the... But they wanted that jury to get a sense of what really happened. As painful as it would have been for the jury to see, they needed to see it. And they deliberated about the same amount of time, two and a half hours, about what Susan's sentence should be. And ultimately, they decided against the death penalty. Instead said that she should spend the rest of her life in prison. Yeah.

Sit there and think about it day in and day out. So she ended up getting sentenced to 30 years to life, but she will be eligible for parole in 2025. She'll be 53 years old. That's only seven years away, Gibbs. That's not all that long. It's right around the corner, really. In 2015, she would write a letter stating she never actually planned to kill her kids.

She said she was not the monster that everyone thinks she is. She went on to say, something went very wrong that night. I was not myself. I was a good mother and I loved my boys. The thing that hurts me the most is that people think I hurt my children to be with a man. That is so far from the truth. Now, she wrote this letter and she sent it to a newspaper. The newspaper wrote her back, but she never responded again.

This is what she believes in her head. That's what she believes in her head. that's what she's going to put out there everybody can make up your own mind believe what she said in that article or you know no i know for me i don't believe it yeah i don't either and i don't think a lot of people listening right now are going to believe it either i don't think they believed it back then i don't think they'll believe it now you know she spent more than half her life in prison you gotta remember she wasn't that old she was she was pretty young when she went into when she got incarcerated yeah she was 23 and

And she's not had a great record in prison. She's tried to harm herself. She's been caught using drugs. At one point, she was punished for having sex with a 50-year-old prison guard. He got punished for that, too. I think he spent like three months in jail. The very next year, she was caught having sex with a prison captain. So I don't know what you make of that.

It sounds like she's, you know, not the perfect inmate. Well, no, she's definitely not to, I was really thinking more about the fact that the 50-year-old prison guard, she's still searching for... Daddy-like figure? The father figure, she... Probably. I don't know, it seems to me like there's something there to that. Could be, or, I mean, just could be somebody that's missing out on something and... Yeah, sometimes maybe I make too much out of things.

Yeah, you know, the prison guard was willing to help out. So in 2010, David would say, and... interview that he's never gotten over the pain. There's always this nagging, gnawing heartache. It's there every day. I don't think you can ever get rid of that. Never. You know, she took something away from him. And I think that's a good point, right? You know, there are people that lose children to an accident. And that's, that's horrible. That would be a horrible pain you'd live with for the rest of your life. But this is the woman that you married, the mother of your two children, Yeah.

Taking those children out of this world. That would be like a double heartache, I would think. Absolutely. You know, because I'm sure if he had the opportunity, he would have said, let me have them and you hit the road. Go be with your guy. I'll take the kids. I've got it.

That's it. That is the case of Susan Smith. Yeah. It's a tough one just because of the circumstances. And it's one of those that I think will leave a lot of people feeling. pissed off again like they probably were if they followed the case back in in the 90s. All right, Gibbs, let's try to transition. Let's hear something positive, maybe.

Okay. Unless somebody's mean to us on a voicemail. Well, you never know. You never know. Hello. Hi, Alex. I'm a new listener to your podcast. Very good job.

Pause into the finale of the Jeffrey Dahmer bit, and they just released more information about why he murdered Jeffrey in prison. It was because while they were doing the cleaning of the bathroom, apparently Dahmer and the other murderer were actually poking the man in the back and, like, saying, no, it wasn't me, wasn't me. And that set his anger off the limit. That mixed with the creating of, like, human-shaped body parts on his meal potters, combined with the, like, essentially pranking of the third guy who murdered both of them,

that is what caused the attacks on Jeffrey. not just because of the food. Keep up the good work. Stay safe and keep your own time too. All right. We love new listeners. We love hearing additional information. Good little tidbit.

Yeah. I had not heard that. Sounds like they were playing the pokey game and saying... I thought they, don't they play the pokey game a lot in prison? No, this is a different pokey game. Okay. Saying, wasn't me. Wasn't me.

That's what he's saying. Hi. My name is Colette. And I just got my sister. got me hooked on your podcast. And it seems to ask about ideas. And I live in Stockton. And right outside of Lodine, my dad worked on a case.

He was a sheriff where they killed nine people at this one house, Willie Steelman and Douglas Gressel. And I didn't know if you would look into that. They started their crime spree in Maricopa County. But anyway, I love you guys. Thank you. All right. We will definitely look into that.

Yeah. I don't know if I have them on the list, Gibbs. I'll have to check. A lot of crazy stuff going on. around Stockton. Yeah. Don't be chasing off our Stockton fan base now. And I wondered, are you guys going to do it? So, so that's S. He sends me a voicemail about four times a week. Okay. I don't play them all on the air because some of the ones he sends are just for us. They're not all for the, for the, to be aired. I think some of them are just for you. Yeah, some of them

just for me. But I always get a kick out of them. And he wants to be start out the episode saying you don't have a Harley. Well, I don't. But I keep trying to talk you into getting one so we can ride. I know. Maybe one day. So speaking of that, I started collecting these little, so every Harley dealership has a poker chip. Yes, I've heard. And I think it would be awesome. They're like a dollar 99. They don't cost anything. Yeah. Well, they cost a dollar 99. They cost a dollar 99. I'd really like to have some from, you know, like in other countries where they have Harley dealerships. Is this your plea to My plea. Our listening base to go to your local Harley store and ship you a chip?

Exactly. It's shameless. Go to your local Harley store, buy your local Harley Chip, and mail it to the studio. There you go. Studio address is on the website. It's on the website. I'll send you back something cool in exchange for the Harley Chip. Yeah, that sounds like a win-win.

All right. Hey, Mike and Gibby. It is B calling you from headquarters of TD Ameritrade in beautiful Omaha. Ha, Nebraska. Do not go Huskers because I don't drink the Kool-Aid. Anyway, I love Ghibie's smooth, smooth voice. I love listening to you guys at work. I have turned so many security principles onto your podcast.

Word to the WISO. Do not listen to you while falling asleep. You guys are so relaxing. Definitely was sitting with my daughter last night while she was watching Daniel Tiger and fell asleep listening to your podcast. Worst nightmares ever. So not worth it. I will stick to listening to you guys at work.

You make my workday so much brighter having to deal with my brokers. But definitely love you guys. Keep up. Be good work. And as always, keep your own time ticking. Plus, you know, I put a lot of subliminal messages in. So if you're sleeping to that, you might have some gibby on the brain. You're a smooth operator.

I just like give you smooth voice. It is smooth, man. It's 15 past the hour. That's right. It's give me time. I don't know where we go from there, you know. There's no good place from that. There's no segue from that.

I do appreciate the voicemail. Yeah, and she was very chipper, beautiful, beautiful Omaha, Nebraska. Love it. Love it. All right. That is it for another episode of True Crime All the Time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.