True Crime All The Time - T. Eugene Thompson

Episode Date: January 16, 2023

T. Eugene Thompson was convicted of hiring a hitman to murder his wife, Carol, to obtain over $1 million in life insurance. T. Eugene and several other men were charged and convicted in this case, which involved an affair, a web of conspirators, and a murder-for-hire plot.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss T. Eugene Thompson and the murder of Carol Thompson. Thompson told a woman he needed time to get his finances in order. He then took out multiple life insurance policies on his wife and, through a middleman, engineered an elaborate hit. But things didn't go as planned, and it was Carol Thompson's tenacity and fight that led to the downfall of everyone involved.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 316 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime. Mike Gibson, Gibby, how are you? I'm doing good, man, about you. I'm doing very well, much better. Good. I'm on like week three and even though there's still a little bit lingering, I feel so much better.

It's always a good sign. It is, it is. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Lisa Sharphorn. What's going on, Lisa? Krista Wexall. Hey, Krista. Charlene.

Hey, appreciate that, Charlene. Shayla Hayward. What's going on, Shayla? Tracy Nail. Hey, Tracy. Faith Aguilar. Well, appreciate that faith. Gina Marion.

Ah, good old Gina. Justin. Hey, Justin. Miss Elise. Well, thank you, Miss. Tiffany Ford. Hey, Tiffany. Sandy Bingman.

Hi, Sandy. Melissa Kennedy jumped down at our highest level. And thank you so much, Melissa. We had Heather Kraft. What's up, Heather? Erica. Erica. Daniel Holtz Trager.

Holtz Trager. Lupa. What's going on, Lupe? Jamie Brown. Hey, Jamie. Jamie Phillips jumped out to our highest level. That's awesome, Jamie. And last but not least, Susanna Pemberton.

Well, thank you so much, Susanna. Yeah, we appreciate the new support. And then if we go back into the vault, this week, we selected Colleen Butcher. Well, that's awesome, Colleen. It is. We appreciate the new support, the continued support. We had some amazing PayPal donations. Alice Yang sent what I believe is the biggest PayPal donation ever.

Well, that's awesome. Love that. Yeah, we also had big. dig donations from Erica Grineer. Well, thank you, Erica. And Keir Vernon. I never heard that name. Keir.

Kear. It's kind of cool. And I don't know if I'm pronouncing it correctly, but I like it. Gibbs right now on Unsolved, we have part two and the final part on the murder of Betty Gore and the case against Candy Montgomery. You know, a very interesting story, one that people have been asking us to do for a long time. Oh, yeah. Part two is really good.

So make sure you check that. out. Definitely one you have to listen to. CrimeCon is coming up, I think, in September. If you're going and you're going to buy your tickets, go to crimecon.com. Use our promo code T-Cat, T-C-C-A-T-T. That'll get you 10% off your standard badge price. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I'm ready. We're talking about a man named T-U-Gene Thompson, kind of a strange name. It is strange. T stands for Tillmer, which I had never heard before either. But we've got a lot going on. We've got, you know, murder for hire plots, affairs, conspirators, all in an effort to gain some life insurance. That's a lot of

activity. It is. It is. So let's get right into it. Tilmer Eugene Thompson was born on August 7th, 1927. He was born in Elmore, Minnesota. That's according to his find a grave profile. file. There was a 2015 New York Times article that said he was born in Blue Earth, Minnesota. It's Minnesota. I don't actually know where either one of those is, but safe to say he was born in Minnesota. Minnesota. He was the son of a chicken farmer. And it was said that he grew up in Elmore near the Iowa border. T. Eugene was given the nickname Cotton because apparently he had like that whiteish blonde hair. I had that when I was young. Did you?

Yeah, I sure did. I can picture that. Yeah. I can picture that. You probably wish you had the density of it back. I know I do. You had to go there, huh? Well, yours is nowhere near where mine is, son.

You've got a pretty full head of hair. I'm just saying, I'm sure you wish it was a little denser. I'm saying I wish I had the first two-thirds of mine back from the first three-thirds of mine back from the front back. I still can't believe no one's invented something to make hair growth. Like a chia pet type situation? I don't know. There's a lot of stuff. I'm not taking those ones from the back, though, and having them implanted in the front. T. Eugene played football with future senator and vice president Walter Mondale. So Mondale was VP during Jimmy Carter's presidency. According to the Twin Cities pioneer press, Mondale said about T. Eugene. We grew up.

together. His family lived just a block from mine. His dad was in the poultry business. It was really painful for me. When he got into severe trouble with the law, he did something for which there was no excuse. He had to pay that price. And he did. He's got a nice family. I feel sorry for them. And I extend my deepest sympathies to them. So this is a little different. Sure. It is. How many people do we talk about on true crime all the time, where, you know, a vice president, senator, somebody really high up in the government was friends with this guy and has to come out and say, you know, things to the press. I don't condone what he did, but we were friends at one point.

Why would hope he say I don't, I don't condone what he did? That'd be front page news if he went a different direction. So T. Eugene dropped out of high school to enlist in the Navy. The Twin Cities Pioneer Press reported that he lied about his. age. And apparently he served in World War II on a minesweeper in the Pacific. I think a lot of kids back then lied about their age because they wanted to go into the service. Yeah. Yeah, they wanted to serve their country. After the war, he attended college in St. Paul, Minnesota from 1946 to 1950. He then went on to St. Paul College of Law and was there

from 1951 to 195. That's what it was called back then. I saw where now it's called William Mitchell College of Law. So T. Eugene was admitted to the bar in 1955. He worked several jobs and then started practicing law. So he worked in personal injury, domestic relations and criminal law. At the time of his arrest, he was the chairman of the criminal law committee of the Minnesota State Bar Association. This is a guy who was active in bar association activities and even

taught some at the William Mitchell College of Law. Yeah, so he had a good educational and sounds like professional life because he went from high school dropping out, joined the Navy, and must eventually got his either his GED or something while he was in the Navy to go to college and worked his way up through law school. And you have to commend him for that. Yeah, you give people their props for that part. Obviously, his life's going to turn in a bad direction. We know that or he wouldn't be the subject of this episode. T. Eugene met his wife Carol at college.

Carol Ann Swaboda Thompson was born on October 11th, 1928 in St. Paul, Minnesota. She was the only child of a local business owner. The two got married on March 27th, 1948. Carol and T. Eugene had a son named Jeffrey and three daughters named Margaret, Amy, and Patricia. The children were born in 1949, 1951, 1953, and 1956. It was a very busy seven years. Yeah, four kids in seven years. That is a lot of diaper changes. That's a lot of feedings. That's just a lot of work, period. The family moved into their St. Paul home in 1915.

So they lived in this Highland Park neighborhood of St. Paul, Minnesota, which was described as a pretty upscale neighborhood. Kind of swanky. Swanky, upscale. I think you could use a number of adjectives. Carol and T were active in their community. Andy Edgecombe Presbyterian Church. I'm having a trouble saying T. Eugene all the time. So I may mix it up a little bit.

It's just strange. T Eugene. It really is. Just go with T, man. T. I might just go T. Yeah. Carol was once president of the church's women's association.

She taught kindergarten there and she sang in the choir. She also led a Girl Scout. True. T was an elder and trustee of the church. In court documents, it said, so far as the record shows, their married life was harmonious. And they seemed to get along well together, taking many. trips with each other. According to the New York Times, the Thompson family were pillars of the community. It's always a lot of pressure to be the pillars of the community. Yeah, I know it's

something you struggle with in your pillar role, but it's also something we've talked about many times in episodes, which is, you know, whether it's a facade or not, you have this family that from the outside looking in seems like, wow, they've got it all, right? The kids, good jobs, the money, living in the upscale neighborhood, nice house. Right. But somebody in that family's got maybe a dark side or eventually something bad is going to happen. According to court documents in the summer of 1960, T. Eugene commenced a social relationship with a woman named Jacqueline Okineski.

Apparently, this was a woman that he represented in a divorce action. They started this relationship and it continued until December, 1961. They went on dinner dates. He visited her apartment. They went to out-of-state motels, went on trips to a house in Forest Lake, owned by Carol's father, and even went on a trip to Chicago. So this was an affair. Sounds like an affair.

Sounds like an affair to me. In 1961, Jacqueline went to business school and she paid her tuition and expenses with money borrowed from T.U.G. I guess he employed her as a secretary after she graduated and ultimately she did repay the money she borrowed. Okay. But in December of 1961, Jackie started dating a man named Ronald Olison. In early 62, she returned a ring that T had given her before she started dating Ronald, and it was in January of that year that she ended her employment at T. Eugene's law firm. Sounds like at that point she was definitely done with T.

Yeah, but in the research, it said after December 1961, they dated a few times, but only a few times. and she started to indicate to T. Eugene that she was interested in marrying this guy Oluson. Jackie later testified that in February 1962, T. Eugene asked her if she would give him a year or 11 months to get his financial affair straightened around. So as to arrange for the financial well-being of his family. But she refused. Seems strange to say, can you give me a year? or 11 months. Why not just a year? You know, say a year. 11 or 12 months or, but what do you make of that? I need to get my financial affair straightened for the financial well-being of my family. Well,

I understand what that means, but what does Jackie have to do with it? Well, yeah, nothing, you know, I mean, he's trying to hold on to her. He doesn't want a loser. Right. So he's basically saying, I'll do this for you. Yes. And, And, you know, obviously we'll get into it. But what is what does that mean when I say, you know, when he says I'm going to get my financial affairs in order, just give me a little more time. But clearly she's not interested. No. No, she wasn't. After early 1962, she only saw him a few times and said it was only for business purposes. In June of 62, Jackie married Ronald Olson. Later that summer, though, she came to T. Eugene's office to discuss getting a divorce from Ronald. and papers are drawn to start a divorce action. That didn't last very long. No, obviously, maybe it wasn't as good as what they or she thought it was going to be.

Maybe he wasn't the man that she thought he was. Jackie said she had lunch with T. Eugene in the summer of 1962. He asked if she would marry him if he put $10,000 in the bank in her name. She said no. Yeah, that's a really strange way to ask somebody to marry you. I want you to marry me. And if you do, I'm going to put $10,000 in your bank account. A little less romantic than, you know, the ring in the champagne glass that someone finds as they start to drink it or get to the bottom of it.

Maybe that works sometimes. I can't see how a marriage like that would survive based on a financial proposition. Exactly. In September 1962, T. Eugene commenced. Jackie's divorce action. He served Ronald Olson, the papers. In October of that year, they contemplated a reconciliation. T. requested that one of Jackie's friends discouraged her from this reconciliation. But by November 1962, Jackie and Ronald reconciled and they were back living together. I'm sure T didn't like that. No, I don't think he did. He called Jackie a few

times. Core documents indicate that in December of 62, he had some what were termed harsh words with Ronald. And basically, Ronald would not allow him to talk to Jackie. Jackie testified that sometime after Christmas of 62, T. Eugene called her at work and asked if she'd be interested in taking an apartment in a building he owned. She said no. And this seems to be the last time. that he contacted Jackie before Carol's death, which obviously we're getting ready to get into. But I think from what we've talked about so far, it's pretty easy to see that T was enamored. He was in love with Jackie. Oh, for sure.

You can tell. He wanted to be with her. I want to kind of control her too, I think. But having her either by I'll pay you to be with me or can you move into one of my apartments? just so I can keep tabs on you. Yeah, I got that as well. There was maybe a multiple attempts to try to figure out a way to control her or to get her indebted to him maybe as part of the control process.

So now we have to go back to early 1962. This is January. T. Eugene and Carol traveled to Chicago. And they visited the home of Mr. And Mrs. Bruce Gov. This is a couple that they had known since college. Bruce was an insurance salesman. And he urged T to buy life insurance for Carol after he learned that she didn't really have much.

He recommended a $50,000 policy. But when they got back to St. Paul, T talked to his insurance agent, a guy by the name of James Traynor, about term insurance. And he ended up purchasing not one, but several insurance. policies, much of it was term insurance with accidental death benefits or what was termed purely accidental death insurance. Okay. He's kind of putting some writing on the wall there maybe. Well, so, I mean, I know that a lot of term policies have maybe an extra payout for accidental death. What I've never had, and I've actually never seen, is a policy that only, pays out in the event of an accidental death.

My thought is you could get a lot more coverage for a lot less money if it only pays out in this one scenario. But to your point, if, you know, if your wife then ends up dying accidentally, and I'm using my air quotes here, it's going to put a little bit of a target on you. Oh, yeah. For sure. Well, and she had a pretty big target on her. In the form of the life insurance policies that he took out.

Yeah, it was over a million dollars in total. 62 Gibbs, you know, use that big brain and calculate what would that be in today's money? Probably close to $4 million. I think it's a lot more. Yeah. Thinking seven? I think it's over double digits. Wow.

If I had to guess. Yeah. I really do. Now, I'm not as good at it as you are. Well. But I'm going, you know, 12. That's my guesstimus. That's a lot of money today.

That's a hell of a lot of money back then. You're thinking it would be the same amount of money. It would be the exact same amount of money. I mean, it's different amounts, but it's worth the same. So I'm not sure if that came out exactly the way you meant it to, but let's roll with it. Yeah. And we'll just go past it. So apparently T. Eugene told this trainer guy and later testified himself that he wanted this much insurance because if he died first, Carol and the kids would have about a million dollars by combining his life insurance, which was just shy of half a million.

And then a half a million dollars inheritance from Carol's father. And he was pretty wealthy. He was a wealthy plumbing. contractor. T. Eugene later testified that he purchased the insurance so he and the kids would have an equal amount if Carol died first. And he also said that he could easily afford the insurance out of an unneeded monthly retainer. He got from the company owned by Carol's father. T. Eugene also said that he had a premonition that Carol would have a tragic accident on February 8th or 9, in that he'd had similar premonitions when his brother and sister died unexpectedly. Okay, we got to talk about this. Like, what a clairvoyant?

Well, you know, people have bad dreams. People have bad thoughts or bad feelings that maybe something is going to happen. Right. I've had some of those. I have never had anything where I thought someone is going to. to die, and I can tell you the date. That is very creepy. It's really creepy.

You can tell me when I'm going to die, but you can't tell me how to win the one point some billion dollar lottery is coming up. I know, I know. These things work in strange ways, I guess. In July of 1962, a guy by the name of Norman Maastrian, a former prize fighter from Twin Cities, contacted T. Eugene about a possible false arrest. These guys had attended college together, but apparently T didn't remember this guy. But on July 31st of that year, he agreed to represent Maastrian if he was paid a $2,500 retainer. Now, Masteran didn't have this much money, but he did

own stock in a corporation called Telestat. And T. Eugene agreed to take 1,000 shares instead of retainer. But apparently the company refused to make the transfer this way. So they commit a little stock fraud. Well, it sounds like it. Right. So T. Eugene paid this guy $2,500 in cash. In return for the stock. But then he took the money back and the stock. Yeah. So it was a little strange, the way that it sounded. And then he ended up buying the remaining shares that this guy owned. And in total, I think he paid like $2,700 or something like that. He later testified that he wanted to acquire a controlling interest in this company. But on December 31st, 1962, he figured out that the stock was virtually worthless and he sold

it all to the company president for $800. It's a pretty healthy loss. Yeah, you're going to have to write that off for sure. So from August 62 to February 63, T. Eugene met Mastrian in different places. And they talked on the phone a bunch. He was representing this guy in several different legal matters at the time. T. Eugene hired Norman Mastrian to kill his wife, Carol, for $3,000. The New York Times reported that he wanted Mastrian to bludgeon Carol with a rubber hose, put in the bathtub and stage an accidental drowning. So the rubber hose used to make sure that there's no marks?

That's my thought. Because if not, you would use something a little more substantial. According to Bill Swanson, author of Dial M, the murder of Carol Thompson, T. Eugene hired Maastrian because he was a former client. Swanson told the Twin Cities pioneer press, Norman Mastrian was a guy who was known to police in and out of trouble. He had been involved in the murder of an underworld type years earlier. And T. Eugene had been involved in his defense.

So, you know, I take from that that T kind of knew what this guy was all about, knew some of the things that maybe he'd been into in the past and at least had a good idea. that maybe he would be open to, you know, some type of murder for hire plot. Because, you know, you and I talk about that all the time. How do you go to somebody and say, hey, will you kill my wife for $3,000? You know, a friend, an acquaintance. I think that would be pretty tough. People do it all the time.

They get caught. But here's a guy who had kind of maybe done some shady things in the past. and so he felt a little more comfortable maybe going to this guy. It just seems like a really low number. It always does, right? What number wouldn't seem low? Number one, to have your wife killed. And then number two, as a, as the person taking the money to take a human life for X amount of dollars.

And all that risk that goes with it. Well, not only the risk, but to me, I always think of like, the stain on your soul. You know, money's not going to wipe that away, that knowledge that you took somebody's life and something that you really got to live with for the rest of yours. On January 24th, 1963, T. Eugene took the family dog to the vet and asked the vet to rehome the dog. I didn't know that's something that a vet would do, but maybe back in the 60s it was. But here's the thing. He claimed that they had installed new carpet and the dog had stained their old carpet and because they couldn't train her. They felt like they had to get rid of her. Now, one important thing in the research was that this dog barked whenever someone came to the house, that's important. It's also important that it's disputed whether or not Carol knew. Why, T, Eugene. was giving the dog away or if she was okay with it at all.

But obviously it's going to come up, right, as part of the case. The family's phone was often kept in the upstairs bedroom, but it was taken out of the house on March 4, 1963. T. Eugene claimed that they got rid of it because they wanted to get a new phone that would match their home decor. The phone would later be found in his car after Carol was killed. So in late February, 1963, Norman Maastrian started looking for someone to commit the murder for hire. A man named Sheldon Morris testified that he was present when Maastrian asked a man named Richard Sharp, if he would do it for $2,000.

Sharp said he wasn't interested, but knew a man named Bill Ingram, who might do it. Morris was also present when Maastrian asked Ingram if he would kill a woman for 2000. Ingram said he wasn't interested. So there's a couple of things here. First of all, Norman's getting 3,000. Right. And he's looking to subcontract the hit for 2,000. He pockets $1,000.

But he's already asked two people. And those two people both turned him down. And I think, you know, back to your point, when you start just looking for people to kill someone else. you are leaving a trail all over the place. You really are. Because when someone ends up dead, they may not know the name of the person you wanted killed,

but if there's any connection to you whatsoever, it's not going to be that hard for them to figure out that, well, he must have found somebody to do it. Yeah. I just, how do you know so many people? Well,

and then, you know, the first guy, Richard Sharp, says, you know what, I don't really want to do it, but I know a guy who might. Yeah. And that's so strange.

How do you even know a guy who might want to do it? How does those conversations come around, you know? The guy says, hey, if anybody ever says anything about it, make sure you contact me. I'm up for it. Yeah. So let me know. Morris testified that on March 2nd, Masterion asked a man named Henry Butler if he would kill a woman, but Butler said no.

Good answer. So here's guy number three. Morris testified that on the morning of March 4th, Mastrian told him he had to meet T. Eugene at a pancake house in St. Paul, Mastrian borrowed his car that evening for the meeting in the parking lot behind McGuire's restaurant. Richard Sharp testified at trial that he was offered a job by Mastrian to kill a church-going woman with four children. And he said, Mastrian suggested that the murder should be done by hitting the woman with a rubber hose,

in drowning her in the bathtub. Trying to keep it clean that way, I guess. Sharp said he was told the price was $2,000, but if it looked like an accident, it would be $3,000. He testified that on or about March 2nd, he introduced Maastrian to a guy named Dick Anderson. Dick Anderson was described as a troubled Korean War combat veteran

and an ex-convict from Michigan. This is what the Twin Cities Pioneer Press wrote about him. He also worked as a roofing salesman. Sharp claimed he was present on March 3rd when Maastrian offered the job to Anderson. Anderson said he'd think about it. So not a flat out no this time. Right. Let me think about it.

Sharp testified that on March 4th, he gave the gun to Maastrian that was used during the attack on Carol Thompson. So, you know, I think I said up front, there's a lot of conspirators. involved in in this situation. And already, you know, we're hearing about a lot of them. Got a few layers here now. Yeah. Masterin is kind of tasked with getting the job done. Sharp doesn't want to do it, but he's putting Masterion on to other people who might.

And at one point, he supplied the gun that was ultimately used to kill Carol Thompson. So he's very involved, even though I'm not sure he's even getting paid. Yeah, I don't think he probably is. Because he turned down the job. Yeah. So what's he even involved for? According to court documents, Willard Ingram also testified and corroborated Morris and Sharp statements.

Henry Butler testified that Maastrian offered him the job and that he was there when Maastrian gave the gun to Anderson. He also testified that on March 4th or March 5th, he heard Maastrian ask Anderson. What happened today? I had a perfect alibi. So Dick Anderson testified that he met Maastrian on March 3rd, 1963. And that very same day, Mastrian asked him if he was interested in killing a woman. Mentioned it, right?

Anderson said he'd think about it. I guess later that day, Mastrian called him. And Anderson said, yep, I'll do it. But he would need half the payment, $1,000 before he did the job. Mastrian agreed to meet him on March 4th and said, he could only get $200, but he'd have the rest by next Friday. 34-year-old Carol Thompson was murdered by Dick Anderson on March 6th, 1963.

So everything, right, was kind of leading up to this murder of Carol Thompson. I'm going to go back to Anderson. Finally, Maastrian finds a guy who says that he's willing to commit the murder. He wants half a thousand dollars up front. Well, you know what? I can only get 200. I get the rest to you later. Okay.

Okay. Yeah. He's still in. Yep. He's still in. And he ultimately kills this woman. It was March 6th, 1963. Seemed like a normal day.

Carol cooked bacon and eggs for her husband and the kids. And then after making breakfast, she went back to bed. T. Eugene went to his office earlier than normal. on March 6th. His secretary called home. She spoke to Carol. And then T spoke with Carol and said he couldn't come home early in the afternoon like they had planned. Carol had no idea that her husband planned to have her killed.

His plan was detailed in the Park Rapids Enterprise. He would go to work early that day. Carol would send the kids to school. Dick Anderson would be waiting in the basement of the house. for a phone call from T. Eugene's office. When Carol answered the phone, which was near the top of the steps, Anderson would sneak up on her and hit her on the back of the head. And then when Carol was unconscious, he would carry her to the bathtub and stage A drowning.

Now, I don't think we have to say this, but obviously the rubber hose, the no marks, the drowning. That's all key. It is. For the accidental death life insurance payout. But this plan did not work out. Per Anderson's later confession, on March 6th,

he realized that the basement steps were creaky. And he worried that Carol was going to hear him. So around 9 a.m., he ambushed her in her bedroom. He hit her on the head with a piece of rubber hose. And then he attempted to say, stage of bathtub drowning. But when he went to clean himself up, Carol woke up.

The New York Times reported that Anderson testified, she managed to get out of the tub. So I knew I had trouble. I would say, yes, you do at that moment. Well, because what you thought was going to plan now has, you know, that's all thrown out the window because Carol tried to escape. She ran to the first floor. Anderson tried to shoot her. But apparently the pistol was loaded with the wrong ammo and it misfired.

So he hit her in the head with the butt of a Luger pistol. And then he stabbed Carol in the neck with a pairing knife, hard enough to break the handle. In total, Carol was stabbed over 50 times. Now, it's going to be real hard to claim an accidental death benefit. Yeah, I think so when you know the victim died because they were stabbed over 50 times. But even after all that, Carol managed to get away and run to a next door neighbor's house, but she didn't get any help there. She ran to another home, the home of Ruth Nelson.

And it was said that Carol was so badly beaten that Ruth didn't even recognize her at first. The Star Tribune wrote that Carol told her, I got a knife stuck in my throat. A man came to the door and then she lost consciousness. So that's gruesome, but it really paints a pretty vivid picture of what this woman went through. This lady was a neighbor. Obviously, she knew who Carol was, but her face was so messed up that she didn't recognize her. It would be tough to see somebody in that condition at that moment.

No, absolutely. I mean, anyone, right? But then to find out that it's your neighbor, that would be extremely tough. Ruth Nelson and her son, Sidney, called for Dr. Fritz Pearson, a neighbor who was also a physician. He gave Carol first aid while they waited for the ambulance. According to the Star Tribune, Carol told him, there is a knife in my throat. So it's the second time that she said that. that. Carol was taken to Anchor Hospital and surgeons removed a three-inch knife blade from her throat.

But Carol died at 1258 p.m. Well, obviously it wasn't enough to save her. No, but, you know, I mentioned that these knife blows were so hard that it ultimately broke off the handle. And so you have Carol saying, I've got a knife in my throat. I got a knife in my throat. Well, it turns out she did. there was a knife blade in her throat. The Ramsey County coroner said that Carol's death was caused by a skull fracture, brain hemorrhage, contusion of the brain, and two stab wounds to the neck. Carol also had 25 cuts on her head that were determined to be caused by a blunt object. Dick Anderson fled the scene around 9.15 a.m.

One of Ruth Nelson's sons told T. Eugene that Carol was stabbed. and was being taken to Anchor Hospital, T, an associate named Donald Kelly, went to Ruth Nelson's home. They saw that Carol had already been taken to the hospital, so then they went there. According to Lieutenant George Barkley, it seemed like Carol answered the door around 9 a.m.

And was hit with a blunt instrument and knocked unconscious. She regained consciousness and crawled to the living room where she was attacked with the pairing knife. She was hit on the head, face, and throat. Her windpipe was severed. The knife blade broke off in her throat. A bloody butcher knife was found in the kitchen. Three unused 38 caliber pistol cartridges were found on the living room floor.

They thought Carol may have been beaten with a pistol. At the time, it was reported that shotgun shells were found on the floor of another room. There were blood stains on a sink upstairs, which indicated that, the killer washed their hands. The upstairs rooms were ransacked and the drawers were pulled out of the dressers. According to Barclay, the front room was splattered with blood and furniture was out of place, which indicated that Carol fought with her killer. T. Eugene told the police he went to work after taking Jeffrey to school.

The girls had already left. At the hospital, he suggested to the police that robbery could be a motive and, suggested they look in the basement of his house to see if a large sum of money was stolen. So then he talked to the police later that day. Then he showed them a briefcase that was in his office. Inside the briefcase were $44, $100 bills. So that works out to be $4,400. There's a lot of money in the early 60s, especially to be carrying around in cash. It is. But just to step back for a minute, how horrific is it to hear everything that happened to her, Carol. Yeah, it was a very brutal, nasty crime. And I think the police figured that

out very quickly. What police did was they reviewed a list of T Eugene's clients based on a theory they had that a disgruntled person killed Carol because of some grudge that they held against T. One neighbor reported seeing a man near the house on the morning of the sixth, but couldn't identify him. On March 8th, T. Eugene indicated that he wanted to withdraw $5,000 in cash from one of his accounts to hire private investigators. But he was advised by an associate that it wasn't a good idea to withdraw the money because of the questions about Carroll's insurance policies. That same day, he talked to the police and said, the hose found in the bathroom probably came from the lakehouse. But he had no idea why it was in the bathroom. After Carol's murder, there were rumors

of a serial killer or some type of homicidal maniac on the loose in the community. The St. Paul police were under massive pressure to catch the killer. Of course. I'm not surprised by that. No, we see it a lot. But the thing is, T. Eugene was not a suspect at first. Police became suspicious of him when they learned that he had recently given away the family dog. I think that was kind of the first red flag. They were also suspicious of the fact that on the day of the murder, he got to work unusually early. And he asked his secretary to call Carol.

So maybe red flag's two and three. I think so. But then detectives started receiving reports about the life insurance policies on Carol over a million dollars. They also got. got some reports that, you know, T. Eugene had a history of womanizing. But the entire time, he denied being involved in the murder. Yeah, but that's some pretty good motive there.

A million dollars in the early 60s? Yeah. Yeah. I think police have to look at it, for sure. According to court documents, Sheldon Morris testified that two days later, he drove Norman Mastrian to Forrest Lake, where Carol's father owned a cottage. They parked, waited for an hour, then went back to Minneapolis. They returned on March 9th and 10th. He testified that on March 15th, he delivered $800 from Maastrian to Dick Anderson with a message that this was all the money Masterian could get at the time. And Anderson shouldn't bother him until Maastrian could make contact with the payoff man. So I don't think there's any doubt.

and knew that this mastery in was a middleman. Yeah. But I also think it's strange that you're hiring someone to commit a murder. And at first, you don't have even half the money, right? You give them $200. And then you come back with $800 later and say, you know what, don't bother me for the rest of the money for a while, right? I think you're, you're really kind of leaving.

yourself open there. In a big way. Not that this guy wants to tell because he's a murderer. But if the you know what hits the fan, you don't think he's going to, you know, make a plea, cop a deal and testify about everything he knows. If he's smart, he will. On or around March 15th, attorney John Connolly gave Morris 25, $100 bills to give to Maastrian. On April 15th, Morris delivered an envelope from Maastrian to Anderson. The envelope was supposed to have $1,500 in it with a note that read, this was all the money Anderson could expect until Maastrian got money from the payoff man. Anderson informed Morris that he'd be gone for two weeks,

and he wanted the rest of the money when he got back or else. The old or else. Anytime you add or else at the end of something, it denotes something. ominous, right? Something bad is going to happen. That's always the else. It's never, I'm going to give you money or something good is going to happen to you. You better give me my money or else. That's right. Or else what? Or else I'll have to give you a gift. No, it doesn't work that way. It's not something pleasant. On March 20th, T. Eugene was contacted by attorney John Connolly, who was representing Maastrian and was asked to bring some of Maastrian's,

files to the office. Okay. So the middleman in this murder for hire plot also has an attorney. T. Eugene gave Connolly $25,100 bills and said that it was the return of the retainer that Maastrian gave him in connection with the matter in Anoka County. The Park Rapids Enterprise reported that the attorney would later tell police about this meeting and that there was no receipt of the transaction. On March 27th, Thompson released a statement confirming that he was the beneficiary of over $1 million in term in accident insurance. And I think like you said earlier, that has to raise some eyebrows.

Number one, you're the husband. So they're going to look at you anyway. I think it's a big flag for me. But when you've got that much money that you're going to get if your wife dies. And I get it. A lot of people have insurance. And maybe some people have massive amounts of insurance. Yeah.

And it doesn't mean anything bad is ever going to happen to the person. But if something did, you'd be looked at. That's all I'm saying. If something happens to me, they're definitely going to be looking at you. That's weird that you took seven policies out on me. Mm-hmm. But I just assumed that, you know, you knew what you're doing. It was also weird how easy it was.

I might take seven more. Yeah. You know, I don't know what you want it for, but, you know, hey, Whatever. And you never will. Because I won't be around with it. If and when you collect. To find out.

On April 5th, the police said that parts of the gun handle found in the house came from a Lugar pistol used to kill Carol. On April 9th, a man named Wayne Brandt identified the gun handle pieces as those from his luger, which was stolen from his apartment in February. On April 17th, two men, Henry Butler and Willard Ingram admitted to the police that they took to Lugar and sold it to Norman Maastrian and Sheldon Morris. So again, we're hearing names that we've heard before, right? Willard Ingram was a person who was approached to commit the hit. And maybe Henry Butler was too.

I can't remember there's so many different people that, you know, Masterian reached out to to, to try to line up this hit, but all of this is pointing back to a couple of individuals. Maastrian was arrested at his home in Spring Lake Park on April 19th, 1963, in charge with first degree murder.

Later that day, Anderson and Richard Sharp were arrested in Phoenix, Arizona. And Dick Anderson confessed to the murder. But he also named Norman Mastrian is the middleman, who hired him to kill Carol and said that T. Eugene Thompson was the mastermind behind the whole thing. Anderson confessed that he killed Carol for $2,300, which suggested that Norman Masterian intended to keep 700. Right. Remember, we said Masterin was going to get 300. Right. At first,

he was trying to get somebody to do it for 2000. It sounds like he ended up getting Anderson to do it for 2300. It keeps 700. Now, we talk a lot about the amount of money that people kill for. Right. Or lack of money. Or lack, you know, how small it is, really. Now, let's talk about a man who for $700, middle manned to use that as a verb, probably incorrectly, this entire thing. He set up this murder. Yeah. He didn't pull the trigger, but he set it up, put everything in motion for $700. It's scary, really, if you think about it.

It's such a little amount of money for everything that he did and the fact that he just, he did it and he knew that somebody was going to die. Well, that's what I was going to say. He knew. He even went to people and said, hey, would you be willing to kill a woman with four children? So he knew there was no illusion about what the end result was going to be. On April 22nd, Richard Sharp returned to St. Paul and signed a statement implicating Anderson as the killer and saying that Maastrian offered him the job of killing Carol.

Sheldon Morris surrendered to the police. On May 8th, a grand jury indicted Anderson and Mastrian, Morris was charged with accessory after the fact. On May 9th, a pair of bloody pants believed to have been worn by the killer were found in Sherburn County. On June 21st, Anderson gave a statement implicating T. Eugene Thompson, which led the police to arrest him. He was arrested on June 21st, 1963, at the House in Forest Lake. He was charged with first degree murder. His bail was set at $100,000, which at the time was the highest. in state history.

That's a big chunk of change. Well, we just mentioned how much a million dollars really was in 1963. A hundred thousand dollar bail in 1963. That is massive. Yeah. It's a huge amount to try to cover. So based on the million, what would that be today? What do you think 100,000 would be today?

Oh, it's back then today, 100,000? thousand, seven, fifty. I think you're close. I think you're closer than your first one. Yeah. I was thinking a million, but I think $7.50 to a million. But it's a lot of money. It's a lot of money.

For sure. Ramsey County attorney William Randall said that the arrest was based on information given by Dick Anderson. And he knew it all. I mean, this is the guy who committed the murder. Yeah. He was privy to everything. He knew exactly what happened. The following statements come from,

documents, Anderson testified in detail about the murder. He made another important statement in court saying, this was the first time I had heard the name of Mr. Thompson. Masterian said, Mr. Thompson will leave the door open in the morning. You will be able to go inside and go down in the basement and wait. At 825, Mr. Thompson will call Mrs. Thompson. And at that time, you will be able to sneak up the stairway. Mrs. Thompson will be right around in the kitchen answering the telephone. The other telephones in the house will be removed so that she has no choice but to come downstairs. So again, going back to, you know, telephones being removed from rooms that are later found in Thompson's car.

Here's the whole reason behind it. Now we know. Right. We only want one phone in the home. So it's that phone that has to. to be answered, which puts his wife in a certain place at a certain time. Anderson testified that we went over to the Highland Park area, and he drove me past the residence at 1720 Hillcrest in the front. He said, look good at the front of the house.

I did. And then we went around the alley. And we made several trips around the alley and around the front of the home. Then we finally pulled up in front of the home. And then he showed me the side door pointed it out to me and said that there is no back door on the residence. He also said at 6 o'clock in the morning, there's no movement on the streets. And there's no lights in this section. At that time, he took a rubber hose out from underneath the front seat of his car. And he told me that the woman should be hit in an angle across the back of the neck to more or less simulate falling in the bathtub. I asked him about the water in the bathtub. and he said, Mr. Thompson will leave water in the tub.

I discussed further with him about the body, whether it should be face down or face up if she fell in the bathtub. He said, be sure and have it so the body is up as far as the bathtub goes. And he instructed me as far as reverse artificial respiration on the chest. So some pretty good details here. Yeah, I think Anderson was very detailed. In his testimony, he also testified that after he attacked, Carol, he left out the front door and went to his apartment.

He got a call from Maastrian. He put the clothes he wore into a bag and he met Maastrian and Morris. They rode north of the Twin Cities and threw the clothes and the gun out of the car while driving down side roads. So like you said, very detailed, but also very damning, right? Against Thompson for sure, but also Maastrian and some of the. the other people involved. T. Eugene Thompson's murder trial started on October 28th, in 1963. The state presented evidence about the life insurance policies as well as affairs

that T had. The prosecution argued that Thompson arranged the murder so he could collect Carroll's life insurance benefits. The New York Times reported that he had promised his former secretary that he would provide enough money for them to live on. Prosecutors argued that T. Eugene staged the call. So he could say Carol was alive when he left for work. And I know this plan didn't work. And I hate to, I always hate to say that something is kind of ingenious or, or smart in any way on the part of killers. But you would have to say that in theory, the plan was thought out. Yeah, you would have to. By Thompson. Sure. She would have been a lot. When he left, he would have talked to her on the phone. How could he have had anything to do with her

death after the time of death was established and all that? And if everything would have gone according to plan, it most likely would have been ruled an accident anyway. Nobody would have been looking at anyone. Thompson's defense insisted that he was a loving husband who was accused by lying witnesses and besmirched by misleading evidence. Besmerched. I always love it when people use the word besmirch. You've besmirched my honor.

And then you take your gloves off and you smack somebody in the face. With the gloves? With the gloves. Yeah. That's what they do in the movie. He smirched. Thompson testified at trial, which in many people's opinions did more harm than good. That seems to happen more often.

often than not. That's true. He was found guilty of first degree murder on December 6th, 1963 and was immediately sentenced to life imprisonment at hard labor. Nice. Not just life in prison with no parole. I like that part. Sitting in a cell, life in prison at hard labor.

So I'm picturing a little cool hand Luke action. Yeah. You know, the black and white stripes. using a pickaxe to break rocks seemingly for no reason. Nope. And then let's pick up these big rocks and move them over here. Yeah. Tomorrow's move them back.

And then tomorrow we're going to move them back. Yeah. We're really not accomplishing anything, but you're going to work your ass off. Right. Luke, why is that dirt on my ground? I mean, I've got no problem with it. Yeah. Now, I think life in prison is what it is.

does some people care about it as much as others? Maybe not. You know, if you've got a TV and you're being provided three meals a day, I don't know that some people find it all that unpleasant, to be honest with you. Now, if you're in 95 degree weather, breaking big rocks into smaller rocks all day, maybe not as much fun.

I don't think you're going to like it. Although I don't know how many inmates, we went running them around with pickaxes and things like that. Well, they'll be chained up together. Yeah, they normally are, I think. I don't know. And there's usually, at least in the movies, there's guys on horses with guns and, you know,

everything for me goes back to movies. That's really all I know about it. I'm pretty sure. Cool Hand Luke, they were on horses. Yeah. Maybe everything I know goes just to Cool Hand Luke. Keep shaking that bush. Exactly.

On June 11th, 1964, Sheldon Morris pleaded guilty to accessory after the fact. He was sentenced to five years, but it was suspended with five years probation. On June 22nd, 1964, Dick Anderson changed his plea from innocent to guilty and was sentenced to life in prison. He was given credit for a year he had spent in the Ramsey County Jail,

which I thought was strange in the research because, okay, it's life in prison. Maybe he got credit for when his parole would come up or what? I don't know. I don't know either. I mean, if you got life in prison, you got life in prison. It's like, hey, thanks for that credit, but I don't ever get to use it, right? Maybe instead of parole at 25 or 30, it'll be 24 or 29.

I don't know. Thompson's appeal to the Supreme Court of Minnesota was decided on January 7th, 1966, the court affirmed his conviction. Carol's parents took custody of the children. their son Jeffrey became a lawyer. And eventually the Rice County attorney, he prosecuted several murder cases. And then in 1999, he was appointed a district court judge in Winona.

Good for him. Yeah. Thompson did reestablish relationships with his children, sisters, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren. Jeffrey Thompson originally visited his father in prison. And he asked for early parole. He said in an interview with the New York,

times, it's very hard for a child to have a parent in prison, but once he got out, we never had much of a relationship. And he did get out. On March 15th, 1983, Thompson was approved for full parole. He'd been living in a halfway house for three months and participating in a work release program. Both Anderson and Maastrian were approved for similar work release programs, and they would qualify for full parole in 1983 as well. Anderson said he planned to move to Oregon. And Maastrian said he planned to write a book with a professor from Washington. So what do you think?

Then it's been much time in there. 20 years, right? 20 years, give or take. Yeah. I don't know why they call it life if it's not life. Yeah, I understand life with the possibility of parole. I get that. But when you look at a husband, you know,

taking out the policies, doing everything he did. It was so cold. It was so calculated. And, you know, killing his wife or having his wife killed the mother of his children is 20 years enough. And I think a lot of people would say no. Because I get it. This happened in the 60s.

Sure. You know, I keep going back to the war on drugs. People would like three strikes on marijuana spent like 25 years. in prison. Not longer. They didn't kill anybody. Now it's free in most places. I don't know about free, but legal.

It would be legal. Yeah. It's not free. I don't know where you've been where they're just handing out marijuana. Oh, no, no. It's definitely capitalized. But, you know, it's so interesting to kind of look back through history and see what was prioritized and what wasn't.

And what kind of sentences were handed out for? for, you know, different types of crimes. Thompson resettled in the Twin Cities, and he got married to a woman named Margaret Culver. As a convicted felon, obviously he was no longer able to practice law, and he remained on parole for the rest of his life. According to Jeff Thompson,

his father supported himself through real estate. According to the Twin Cities Pioneer Press, when author Bill Swanson asked T. Eugene how he made his money, he said, good to me. In 1986, three years after Thompson was released from prison, Jeff and two of his sisters had what they called a family showdown with their father. According to the Twin Cities Pioneer Press, Jeff said, we sat down with him and gave him a chance to show us that he had been wrongly convicted. It was pretty clear during the course of that conversation that he wasn't

going to be able to do that. After that, I didn't hear a whole lot of protests. I didn't bring it up again. I told him that if he wanted to admit and ask for an apology, I'd rethink my position on him. But otherwise, we were pretty much done. Yes, I'm convinced he was guilty. I have faith that the jury came to the right verdict. I have faith in our criminal justice system in the state of Minnesota still after 40 years of involvement. So I thought this part was pretty interesting, right?

This is about three years after he was released. And, you know, as the children, they're now grown, they're adults. They are interacting with a man convicted of engineering the murder of their mother. How's that going to go down? I wouldn't think very good. No. And they're basically saying, hey, show us that you didn't do it. Prove to us that you didn't do it.

And obviously he can't because he did do it. Yeah. And that's why he's set in prison for all those years. T. Eugene Thompson died. on August 7, 2015 at his condo in Roseville. He was 88 years old. His paid obituary ran in the Pioneer Press and Star Tribune. There was no mention of the murder,

but you can't imagine there would be. And I think anybody writing an obituary would probably leave that part out. Of course, yeah. Well, at least you probably should. He should. Out of all the highlights, it's probably not the highlight you'd want in there. Unless you really are upset with this person, you know.

And he did die on his 88th birthday. Jeffrey Thompson told CBS that he didn't know much about his father's death. He said, we were told that he was fading and that we needed to get up and see him if we were going to. Before I knew it, he was gone. And it sounds like, you know, really before his death, they had a very contentious relationship. It didn't talk all that much. Yeah, it didn't seem like they were very close. No, no, not at all.

Now, one of the things that I really found fascinating, and this came out of the book by Bill Swanton, was he talked about the fact that the Thompson trial was covered across the country. It was a big case. Yeah. Right? That went out on UPI's national wire. But it was interrupted because on November 22nd, President John F. Kennedy was shot and killed. And you and I have done a number of stories that happened either.

the day after or in the months after 9-11. Yes. And I remember us talking about how they really didn't receive the type of coverage that they would have. No, because of what happened. And that obviously dominated the new cycle, as did the assassination of JFK. Many believe that this case is the inspiration for the 1996 movie Fargo. But filmmaker Joel Cohen said in an interview with the new.

York Times, that the film is not based on the T. Eugene Thompson case and that actually he had never heard of Thompson. Carol Thompson was murdered because of her husband's selfish desire for money. But Gibbs, she fought back against her killer. She escaped the house. And really, it was that effort that exposed her husband's murder for hire plot and ultimately led to the arrest of all those people. If it weren't for, you know, what Carol Thompson did, her bravery, her tenacity, it is entirely possible that her murder might have gone unsolved for a long time, might be unsolved today. And all those individuals be out there free. Never having spent any time in prison.

Yeah. It is entirely possible. But that's it for our episode on T. Eugene Thompson. We got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Yeah, let's hear those. Hi, guys. This is Ashley Beth in Chicago.

So I've been binging T-Cat for a few months now, but it's mostly when I sleep. And I've got to say, Mike, and the voice is very soothing. It puts me right to sleep every time. Except last night, in my dream, I was giving a very important speech. And it was one of those dreams

where you're like somewhat aware of the real world, but still dreaming. And I could remember being like, who is this talking to? my speech. How dare you? So therefore, I'm team gibby. So stay safe. Keep your own time ticking. Yeah, I never talked during someone's speech. I know how to respect that time up there on the podium. So we have a lot of people who explain their reasoning behind being Team Gibby. This has got to be one of the stranger ones. You're like, really? Because I was in your ear, you know, because you chose to

Listen to me. Yeah. Yeah. Because I interrupted your, your speech. That's like the one where, and I think I've told you before, my wife sometimes wakes up from one of her dreams. Yeah. And she is so seething mad at me. Right.

Because in the dream, I have cheated on her. But I'm in the bed. I'm right next to her. I haven't left. I'm right here. And she is so mad at me. Yeah. And sometimes the next day.

It takes a while. out of cool. Yeah. I'm like, you do know it was a dream, right? Don't touch me. It was absolutely a dream.

Yeah. But you made a good choice being team gibby. I'm not responsible for what happens in your dreams. Hey, this is Patrick from Vermont calling. I just wanted to put my two cents in

on a gibbism. On the Dana Flynn episode, he used the word victatious. And Furgie correctly, half correctly, I think, guess that he was trying to say Indictive. I think he mixed it

up with fictitious as well. Hence, fictitious. So put that one in the book of Gimbi-isms. I'll keep keeping track. Thank you very much. Bye-bye. Hey, this is Patrick from Vermont again. I just called.

I got distracted unscrowing my Christmas tree from the base at the end of the last message. Notice I spaced out. What I meant to say was keep your own time ticking. All right, bye. It's a thick book that I have. Of gibbysms. Now, you know, it's an interesting take.

The problem is, I'm not sure you meant to say fictitious because it's not a word I've ever heard you use. Yes. Vindictive, I have heard. But again, I'm just guessing nobody really knows, including yourself exactly what you're trying to say. So, you know, the gibbysms are up for debate. There's no doubt about it. That could be its own podcast right there. It could be.

Yeah. So we had a lot of mailbag. You know, a lot of it probably Christmas related. Janice, I think it's Janus. It was a little hard to read and I tore off the return part. So send us a magnet from Lorraine, Ohio. Because in an episode we said, we're not even sure where Lorraine was. So now we know.

She sent us a magnet. Yeah. Mallory sent Harley chips from Cancun. Well, Cancun. Yeah. Yeah, which is very cool. She said there was actually a Harley store in the airport. Really?

And that's where she got them. Did it smell like sand and beaches? She did not say. Okay. And then Betty Steele sent you what is probably a year's worth supply of red vines. Yes. And sent me some black rifle coffee. So very, very cool.

We're all set. Yeah. We appreciate it very, very much. I'm hyped up on sugar. On sugar now. You're hyped up on coffee. Yeah. Well, I'm always hyped.

hyped up on coffee. But we appreciate all that very much. That's it, Gibbs, for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gabi, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.