True Crime All The Time - The Anthrax Murders

Episode Date: October 4, 2021

Just one week after the devastating 9/11 attacks, an act of domestic terrorism further shook the United States. Letters laced with powdered anthrax were sent to various locations throughout the country, leading to five deaths and seventeen hospitalizations. The anthrax attacks disrupted the US postal system, closed down important media and government buildings, and sparked another large-scale terrorism investigation. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss The Anthrax Murders. The large-scale investigation eventually led authorities to a microbiologist who helping them to find the killer. Dr. Bruce Ivins had even been educating FBI agents on Anthrax in the wake of the letters. Ivins had some skeletons in his closet. But, as he realized that the authorities were closing in on him, he made the decision that he was not going to trial.You can support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 253 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. How are you? Hey man, I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing real well. Good.

Hope you've had a good week. I did. Okay. Well, that's good. Yeah. Because I'm hoping that you did. And now you're verifying the fact that you did. I had a few days off.

So I had a good time on my days off. Well, that is nice. Everybody needs a few days off every now and then. Yeah. So this is going to be a jam-packed episode. Let's go right in with our Patreon support. We had Marie Forsberg. Hey, Marie.

Urban Wren. What's going on, Urban Ren? Aaron Sandler jumped out at our highest level. Hey, Sandler. Rachel Smith jumped out at our highest level. What's going on, Rachel? Tiffany Salyer. Hey, Tiffany.

Kathy Aldridge. Appreciate that, Aldridge. Richard Carrif. Hey, Karef. Becky Halula. Hey, Halula. Megan Kasky jumped out higher than our highest level. Wow, appreciate that, Kasky.

Tara Hammond, Racer. Hey, Hammond. Stacey Rathbone. What's going on, Rathbone? Tim Wessel. Hey, Tim. Jenna McCarthy. What's up, Jenna?

Kim Pinnipacker. Hey, Penny Packer. That sounds like a James Bond character. It does. Yes. It does. Yvette Bershaw. What's going on?

Bershaw. Megan. Maryne Nixon. What's going on, Marin? Joy McCray jumped out at our highest level. Hey, Joe. John Duncan. Hey, John.

Rachel Buckley. What's up, Buckley? And Louis Turone, jumped out at our highest level. as well. Appreciate that Tyrone. And Gibbs, if we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Orla McGrath. Hey, appreciate that, Orla. So we love it, right? The new support, the continued support on Patreon. We had some great PayPal donations from Dana Mackey. Hey, appreciate that, Dana. Megan Kasky. There's Megan again. And Cheryl Gilliam. Hey, what's going on, Gilliam? So thanks to all of you as well.

All right, Gibbs, right now we have an episode out on True Crime All the Time Unsolved. We're talking about the 2014 disappearance of Lars Matank. Yeah, man. What a famous YouTube video that was. Yeah. I mean, it's in kind of a famous unsolved case. I think a lot of it comes from this YouTube video that's been watched so many times,

you know, this footage of what is thought to be his last sighting. Right. And, you know, so we'll get into the details and the theories and all that. But definitely check that episode out. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time?

I'm ready, man. You know, we just recently had the 20th anniversary of the 9-11 attacks. It was a little rough for me, as I think it was for a lot of people. It really was. You know, there was a lot in the news. There was some, you know, new documentaries that came out. And every time I watch that stuff, it brings back the feeling of that day and the days after and it hurts. I mean, there's just no other way to say it. But just a week after the devastating 9-11 attacks, an act of domestic terrorism further shook the U.S. letters laced with powdered anthrax were sent to various locations throughout the country, resulting in five deaths and 17 hospitalizations. The anthrax attacks disrupted the U.S. postal system, closed down important

media and government buildings and sparked another large scale terrorism investigation. And Gibbs, I remember this so clearly. I was actually working at a job that was the job I had prior to the one where you and I first met. Right. And we were sending out a lot of packages. We were receiving a lot of packages. And I can remember the fear with people opening packages worried about whether or not they

were going to be poisoned by anthrax. Right. Yeah. Scary times. The likely perpetrator in the attacks was thought to be a U.S. Army microbiologist named Dr. Bruce Ivins. Both the FBI and the army have come out and said that they believe that Ivans was the perpetrator. But just before he was going to be prosecuted for the attacks, Ivan's ended his life, taking all of his knowledge of the anthrax murders with him. Now, I will say this. There are some who believe Ivan's was innocent. They call into question some of the aspects of the investigation.

So in this episode, we'll discuss the anthrax attacks, the life and kind of strange behavior of Dr. Ivan's, the timeline of the investigation and some of the things surrounding his guilt or innocence. On September 16th, 2001. officials worried that a biological attack would follow the 9-11 terrorist attack. They had some intelligence reports that indicated al-Qaeda planned to commit some type of biological attack on the U.S. Dr. Donald Henderson, the doctor who led the campaign to eradicate smallpox, gave health and human service officials information on both anthrax and smallpox.

And it was just two days after that that someone committed an act of bioterror in the U.S. You know, it's not even a week after the 9-11 attacks. So you know, everybody's on edge. Yeah, everybody was on high alert. What was coming next, right? What happened on 9-11 was horrific. Yes. But was there something else planned?

And I think everybody felt like there was. I do too. I can remember the fear of what is going. going to happen next. On September 18, 2001, letters laced with powdered anthrax were mailed to several locations in the U.S. from a mailbox in downtown Princeton, New Jersey. One letter was mailed to a tabloid photo editor in Florida, a man named Robert Stevens. Stevens worked for American media, a publisher of the National Enquirer. He was hospitalized on October 4th and died on October 5th. after he failed to respond to antibiotics.

So this was the first anthrax death in the U.S. in 25 years. Wow. Letters were also mailed to ABC News, CBS News, and the New York Post. And the letter mailed to the New York Post included a note which said death to America, death to Israel. So I think first off Gibbs, you have the first anthrax death in 25 years. years that had to have set off massive alarm bells. And on top of that, you know, somebody sending

letters saying death to America, death to Israel. Okay, this is looking like the bio-terrorism act that we were all worried about. Imagine the panic and all these corporate mailrooms. Yeah. And it was real. It really happened. And it's going to get worse, right? As more and more letters are discovered, on October 8th, anthrax was found in the Boca Raton offices of American media. That building was closed. The next day on the 9th, more letters were posted. The FBI began investigating the attacks. On October 12th, an NBC employee in New York tested positive for anthrax poisoning.

And then on the 15th, Senate Majority Leader Tom Dashel, a Democrat from South Dakota, told reporters anthrax was found in his office. And Democrat senator from Vermont, Patrick Leahy, also received a letter laced with anthrax. So really Gibbs, in a span of less than two weeks, this is panic-inducing stuff. It sure is. That was seen.

But there's more to come. Absolutely. The next day on the 16th, a seven-month-old baby of an ABC News freelance producer, tested positive for anthrax poisoning. The baby developed a rash and some symptoms of exposure after visiting the Manhattan office on the 28th of September. On October 18th, a CBS employee and a New Jersey postal worker tested positive for anthrax.

On the 23rd, two postal workers from Brentwood facility in Washington, D.C. were confirmed to have died from anthrax inhalation. So again, you know, as these reports get released, the panic meter rises and rises. Okay. First, it's a couple of media outlets. Right. Now you've got some senators. Now we're seeing people die who worked at the post office.

How much of this is going around? We don't know. Nobody knew at that point. No, no. You never knew once you opened that envelope, what was going to be inside? On October 26th, the U.S. State Department mailroom staffer was hospitalized. On the 28th, a New Jersey postal employee tested positive. On the 30th, a New Jersey hospital patient became the 15th reported case of anthrax poisoning.

And I think as much as 9-11 obviously dominated the headlines, this cut in pretty deep. This became a huge story. On October 31st, Kathy Wynn, an employee of the Manhattan Eye Ear and Throat Hospital, died from anthrax inhalation. And then on November 21st, Otilly Lundgren, who was 94 years old and lived in Connecticut, became the fifth person to die from anthrax exposure. This was all over the news. I remember that.

Yeah, it was everywhere. Now, we're still going through a pandemic, right, that is dominating the new cycle. it's a rarity to have something like this that stretches on for as long as it does that makes the news kind of night in, night out. You normally you have these huge stories that break and they're, you know, they're in the ether for a period of time. But stories like this were so big, they were being covered on a massive scale. The anthrax attacks spread from New York to Florida. thousands of people started flooding emergency rooms because they were worried that maybe they too had been the victim of some type of anthrax poisoning. Senators and Supreme Court justices

fled their offices. When it was all said and done, Gibbs, the letters that were mailed only contained in total a tablespoon of anthrax. Doesn't take much though. Well, it doesn't because that was enough to kill five people and hospitalize 17 others. And not only that, but it disrupted the entire U.S. mail system and paralyzed a lot of parts of the federal government. According to the CDC, anthrax poisoning is a serious infection caused by the bacteria bacillus anthraasis. I don't know if I'm saying that correctly, but that's what I'm going with. You are saying it correctly. Oh, I appreciate that. Sure. Anthrax is found naturally in soil and commonly affects domestic and wild animals.

Anthrax is rare in the U.S., but you can be exposed from contaminated animals or animal products. Basically, anthrax spores get into the body and then they activate. The bacteria multiplies and it spreads toxins that cause illness. I mean, the good thing is that anthrax exposure is treatable with antibiotics and antitoxins. but if it's not treated quickly enough, it absolutely can be deadly. And it was. We know five people died. I think at first official suspected the Soviet Union because, you know, they had weaponized

a lot of anthrax over the years. They also suspected al-Qaeda, not surprisingly, right? The terrorist organization responsible for the 9-11. attacks, but really within a few days, investigators found evidence that this most likely was not the case. It was more likely that the attacks were an act of domestic terrorism. And I think that's very scary. We always have the threat of an attack coming from outside. But when you think about somebody trying to, you know, spread this deadly thing from inside the country, that's pretty scary. It really is.

And investigators really came to this conclusion based on a couple of pieces of evidence. So you had the letters. That was the first piece. And then the second was the strain of anthrax used. One of the letters advised the recipients to take penicillum. So I, I think just based. based on that, Gibbs, investigators thought, okay, if this is al-Qaeda, they are not going to give people information on how to not die from anthrax, right? Get to a hospital, get some penicillin,

it will save your life. That's not really how they operate. And then Dr. Paul Kine in anthrax geneticist at Northern Arizona University identified the spores in the powder. And the powder as aims, a lethal anthrax strain used in United States research. So that's where you get the, well, it's coming from within. Right. Very potent stuff. Oh, there's no doubt. Makes me a little nervous knowing that that type of research is going on, but I know that. It's always been going on, always will continue to go on somehow, right? Oh, there's research going on right now that none of us know about. And if we did, it would probably scare the bejeebies out of us. Yeah, exactly.

It happens. We just don't know about it all. But you said lethal. Definitely is not something you want to leave in a baggie lying around on your kitchen table or anything like that. So I think after all of this, some theories began to emerge that the perpetrator was a bio-evangelist. You know, an American obsessed with bioterrorism, maybe somebody who worked in biodefense, but wanted to either send a message. or kind of gain some type of prestige from the attack. So based on that, the FBI turned their suspicion to the scientists who were working to help

them. And one of those scientists was a guy by the name of Dr. Bruce Ivins. So this is where Ivins comes into the picture. Yeah, absolutely. So let's talk about him a little bit. Bruce Ivins was born April 22nd, 1946 in Lebanon, Ohio. It's really close by. It's literally like two towns away from where we are right now.

You know, we talked about it in the episode on Woody Harrelson's father. Woody Harrelson was born in Lebanon. You know, when I played basketball in high school, that was one of the teams that we played. They were in our league. His parents were Randall and Mary Ivins. He was the youngest of three boys. And it's been said Gibbs that the Ivins didn't want any more children after they had their first two. and that when Mary became pregnant in 1945,

she attempted to cause a miscarriage by sitting on the stairs and bouncing down them repeatedly. It's saying she really did not want another child. Yeah, yeah, it is. It didn't work. And Bruce was born in 1946. His father, Randall, was a pharmacist and proprietor of a store called Ivan's drugs.

He was described as generous, chatty, non-confrontational. Family said that Mary hid violent abusive behavior behind a kind of prim and proper image. One of Bruce's brothers told the LA Times, mom could explode. She inflicted terror on all of us. Randall often came to work with black eyes and other signs of physical abuse. He told his co-workers that Mary hit him with brooms. And he was reportedly terrified. of her. She also once hit him with a skillet and stabbed his hand with a fork. I've been stabbed with a fork. I've been stabbed with an exacto knife one time. I didn't really mean to do that, though. It's still her. Yeah. So one night, Mary called Dr.

Ralph Young, who was a neighbor and told him, Ralph, come down here. I've killed Randall. When the doctor got there, I guess Randall answered the door. He was covered in blood, but managed to survive his wounds. So there's no doubt there was a lot of violence in this home. And it sounds as though Gibbs the majority of it, at least from the research, from what we gathered, was perpetrated by Mary on Randall. And we know that happens. It's not the norm. What we normally see is men being abusive to women, but it does happen the other way around. It was also reported that Mary was physically and emotionally abusive to her children, but to a lesser extent than she was with her husband, Randall.

Family said that Bruce and his brothers were emotionally affected by what was going on at home. Now, who wouldn't be? It sounds like it was very chaotic, but as a coping mechanism, he would blindfold his stuffed animals and talk about, you know, what you would have to call an interest in bondage. He also developed an obsession with guns and weapons. You know, he was a kid who had trouble making friends in school and was excluded by the other children. Well, depending on what type of conversations he was having, I can see why. You're going to talk about some of that stuff.

I'm out. Yeah, I like to tie up my stuffed animals and I'm into bondage. guns, weapons. Bob Eden's a newspaper delivery boy told to LA Times, Bruce was very intelligent. And he made sure that everyone around him knew it. He had this inability to become part of a group in a natural way. So he would act out to get attention in weird ways.

He had no sense of normalcy. I think we all know somebody like that. Who has a lot of trouble fitting in. Sometimes people will. force things to try to fit in, but it's not natural, right? You know it's forced. It's kind of drawing attention to yourself for the sake of getting attention to maybe try to fit in. It doesn't work very well, very often. Can't force it, man. Ivan's graduated from Lebanon high school. He was described by classmates as nerdy. He liked photography and he enjoyed studying

bacteria. He later told his adult friends that he was bitter about his high school experience, right? Being excluded in school, not being allowed to join in, to be part of groups. Ivan's then attended the University of Cincinnati to earn his undergraduate degree, which is another tie in because that's where my oldest daughter attends college. Yeah, just again, down the road a little bit. Yeah, about 40 minutes south of where you and I sit right now. Now, allegedly, he liked to roam around the campus with a loaded gun. And when he felt overwhelmed with anger, he would open fire inside empty buildings, imagining various objects were people who had wronged him. Now, this all came from information

that he gave to a therapist later in life, but it's not really known if this was the truth. He said it, but he could have been making it up. Scary enough. That's. Well, it is scary. I mean, this is, this is a real Steve Bussimi in Billy Madison sitting in his basement, putting on lipstick, writing names down that, you know, he's, he's going to go after. That is immediately what comes to my mind. Yeah. Good tie in.

In the mid-1970s, Ivan's earned his Ph.D. And he worked as a researcher at the University of North Carolina. In December of 1975, he married his wife, Diane. They had two children, twins, Andy, and Amanda. The Ivan's moved to Maryland in late 1978. Then in 1980, he was hired as a microbiologist at Fort Detrick and Gibbs. The Army Laboratory at Fort Detrick has been described by the New York Times as the government's brain for biological defense. Okay.

That seems pretty important. It does. And I've seen some articles in the past about that place that makes you kind of feel a little scared. Well, we know there are a lot of people in the world who don't like us. There are also a lot of countries that have, at the very least, experimented with biological warfare. It's scary stuff. It is scary stuff. It was also reported by the New York Times that Ivins was hired without a psychiatric evaluation and was granted secret level security clearance.

He basically helped develop the new and improved anthrax vaccine for army soldiers. And at the age of 55, he participated in the Ameritrax investigation. Ivan spent the months following the attacks, teaching federal agents all about anthrax. So there's no doubt that over the years, this guy became an expert, right? He was in the field for quite a long time. you're not going to pick a guy to teach federal agents about anthrax in the wake of, you know, these mailings if he's not at the top of his game. That would be my take.

Oh, I certainly would agree with that. But here's the thing about Ivan's, his coworkers all loved him. A lot of people came out later and said that, you know, he was kind. He gave Hershey's kisses to people in the office. He sang songs. he read poems. He loved to have conversations about ethics with his colleagues. Really,

their only criticism of Bruce Ivins was that he was what a lot of people referred to as thin skinned. And I think we all know somebody like that. Sure we do. A great person, but maybe easily offended, take things the wrong way. And it was said about him.

He was sensitive to criticism from Army soldiers. When they said that, his vaccine made them sick. Now, as much as co-workers liked him, some said they loved him, they did acknowledge that he was a bit odd. Apparently, he once sent a Christmas card email with a picture of Happy Holidays spelled out in anthrax sports. But I guess Gibbs, if your whole world is anthrax, is it that odd? I don't know. I mean, you could look at it that he just had a really good sense of humor back then. Would you call it a really good sense of humor? Would you call it a really good sense of humor or maybe a maybe an odd sense of humor or a sense of humor that people found odd.

But here's the thing. Bruce Ivan's had a secret life behind the image of, you know, this happy family, this successful career that he had, which all of that was real. He had some strange obsessions, some violent fantasies and some severe mental health issues that really very, very few. people knew anything about. The Army never screened him for him when he joined up, which I thought was strange. Again, I don't know how they did things in, let's say, the 1980s. I think I've mentioned it before, but my former neighbor that lived right behind me, he worked at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.

He obviously had some type of security clearance. I don't know how high it was, but I would get a phone call. I think it was on a yearly basis. and they would ask me all kinds of questions about him. And they were doing like an in-depth investigation, I think as part of like maybe recertifying his security clearance or just making sure that, you know, nobody was noting anything kind of off about him.

Right. I didn't know the guy. So I had trouble answering the questions, but I surely wasn't trying to, you know, get him to lose his job or anything. Nancy Haguewood was one of Dr. Ivan's grad school colleagues who noticed his strange behavior. She later gave statements to both law enforcement and to the New York time. Nancy and Bruce met in 1976 while at the University of North Carolina.

At that time, he was working on his post-doctrine and she was a grad student. Now, she thought that he was odd and she said she tried to avoid him, but he constantly made efforts to talk to her, and he was always asking about her sorority, Kappa Kappa Gamma. He specifically wanted to know about the sororities secret rituals. You wanted to know the inside handshake? Or whatever went on. But what's the first rule of fight club? You don't talk about fight club.

Exactly. I was never in a fraternity. I know you were in a sorority, so you can probably speak to it better. But my assumption is the first rule is don't give away whatever secrets that they have. Exactly. Deny. Deny, denied, deny. Yep. In the spring of 1979, Nancy was preparing to write her dissertation. She needed to transfer over data from her lab notebook. Now, she normally kept it locked in a room at the lab building, but her notebook went missing for a few days until she received the note, telling her that the notebook could be found at a mailbox in Chapel Hill. the police went and got it and they gave it back to her.

Bruce Ivins later admitted that it was him. He had stolen it. He had written the letter later at his workplace in Bethesda, Maryland. Ivins confessed his infatuation with Nancy to a doctor named Naomi Heller, who was a psychiatrist. He said that he thought Nancy's rejection of his friendship was essentially. essentially kind of a replay of his mother's mockery. And he confessed that he had thoughts about killing her. Starting gets scary now, man. It is. Obviously, all of this information comes out much later. And there's a reason why it's able to come out that we'll get to. But there's no

doubt that Bruce Evans had a secret obsession with sororities. And specifically capa, capa gamma. Agents later learned that in the 1980s, he broke into sorority houses in both Maryland and West Virginia. While he was at UNC, he snuck into the KKG house through a bathroom window. And he found a bunch of documents with some type of cipher that you needed to decode some of the sorority secrets. He stole that cipher. Yeah. He solved them, didn't he? Some of the secrets. Yeah, in 1980, he drove three hours to West Virginia University to break into the KKG house. He snuck in through a ground floor window and he stole their ritual book. And basically what he did is he used a cipher from the University of North Carolina to decode sorority secrets.

Seems so strange. This fascination, right? People get fascinated with all types of different things. but for this guy to be fascinated with sororities and specifically this one sorority. Bizar bizarre. And to want to know their secrets. I get it, but I don't.

If that makes any sense. But what are you going to do with that, right? I mean, what's, so you got their secrets, okay? Yeah. I mean,

what's the end game, I guess, is what, you know, I'm kind of mulling over in my head. Nancy Haguewood noticed some strange things happening outside of her home in Maryland in 1982. Someone spray painted the letters KKG on her fence, on the sidewalk, and on her fiance's car window. Now, given their past history,

she had a feeling it was Dr. Ivan, even though she'd never given him her address. But let's face it, Gibbs, if somebody wants to figure out where you live, even back in the 1980s, it could be done. It's definitely easier today versus that big old Haynes Chris Cross book that we had to use back in the 80s. That thing was massive. Yeah, I do not remember that. Of course, I was probably seven. So had little use for the Haynes Chris Cross book, whatever that was. Yeah, it was magical.

But it sounds like you used it to great effect. Absolutely. In 1983, a letter that Nancy Hague would had not written appeared in the, Frederick News Post signed with her name. The letter read as a member of Kappa Kappa Gamma. I am continually dismayed by attempts of the media and other outsiders to disparage the Greek system. I am especially in sense that vitriolic attacks on our practices of hazing, which non-Greeks

fail to realize serve numerous valuable functions. No matter what the press may say about us, I'm still proud to be in a sorority. So Gibbs, she didn't write this letter, but it had her name on it, was sent to a newspaper. Ivins mailed a copy of the letter to a woman named Eileen Stevens, a New York woman whose son died in a hazing incident. He continued sending letters to Eileen expressing outrage at Nancy's statements, even though he was the one who wrote the letter. And he communicated with Eileen up until 1986. Oh, three years. Yeah, three years or so.

But, you know, so why are we talking about this? I think it maybe gives some insight into what this guy was into, right? He obviously held some animosity towards this Nancy Hague would. And how did he choose to display that animosity, right? Maybe damaged some of her property, then made up this letter about her. and then started bad-mouthing her to a woman whose son died in a hazing accident. Is it foreshadowing? Possibly.

And I guess Ivan's and Nancy exchanged some email messages over the years. And some of them, he told her details about her children that she'd never shared with him. Okay. You're in creepyville now. Exactly. Nancy told the New York Times, he damaged my property. he impersonated me and he stalked me. But Nancy was just one of several women who felt afraid and uncomfortable around Bruce Ivins.

The LA Times reported that a psychiatrist who treated him in the late 90s confided to another therapist that Bruce Ivins was the scariest patient he'd ever had. Well, I speak in volumes. On July 18, 2000, Ivan's told a counselor he planned to poison his, former assistant. He said he had cyanide and he had the materials to make a bomb and saw himself as quote, an avenging angel of death. So yeah, you're beyond scary. Exactly. I think at this point, you know, once you learn those details, kind of puts it into a little bit of context, right? Why a psychiatrist or a therapist might say, this is the scariest person I've ever treated. And he's putting himself in this role, right?

this avenging angel. Because why? He feels like he's been slighted. Maybe he feels like he's been excluded like he was back in school. Exactly. Now, what's not known is whether or not the psychologist ever reported this incident. But Ivan's was still obsessed with sororities in the 2000s. It's known that he made posts on Greekchat.com specifically about kappa, capa, gamma, gamma.

He sent inquiries about details of sorority rituals. He even got into some type of editing battle over the KKG Wikipedia page. I mean, this is an organization Gibbs that he doesn't even belong to. Why are you worried about editing its Wikipedia page? And according to the New York Times, he created various online accounts to have these conversations. They also reported that he discussed attending AA in the post. passed and called his mother an undiagnosed paranoid schizophrenic. Oh, he is something.

He's a piece of work. But all of this is important because it's just a piece, right, of the bigger puzzle into why authorities ultimately believe Bruce Ivins was responsible for the anthrax letters. So Gibbs, Dr. Ivans had a Pio box that apparently his wife didn't know about. he also liked to take long drives at night. He once admitted to driving to Ithaca, New York, to leave gifts for a young woman who worked in his lap. Eh, you know, does it mean anything on its own?

No, but, you know, when you're adding all these details together, I think that's what's important. You know, he wrote emails about his mental illnesses and about feeling separated from his body. He described himself as a passenger on a ride he also said that he was like a few feet away watching himself do things. In another email he wrote, when I get all steamed up,

I don't pal. I push Bruce aside. Then I'm free to run about. Is I trying to rhyme there? Well, it did rhyme. It also kind of makes you think of like someone with a dissociative identity disorder. Yeah.

And this might help explain a few things. Maybe. That's the thing about this case. What's important, what's not, it's kind of why we're throwing everything in. It's known that Dr. Ivans did participate in group therapy in an email that he sent on September 26, 2001. He wrote, I'm really the only scary one in the group. Okay, so first of all, the timing of that email is important. And obviously what he's saying in that email is important as well. So after the events of 9-11, Dr. Ivan signed up as a Red Cross volunteer. According to the FBI archives, a few days before the anthrax attacks, he emailed a friend and said, Ben Laden terrorists for sure have anthrax and sarin gas, just decreed death to all Jews and

all Americans. And I think some people point to this in correlation to, what was in, you know, one of the letters, which said death to America, death to Israel, very similar type of language. Right. Yeah. On September 22nd, between two of the anthrax mailings, Ivan's attended a Red Cross class on disaster services.

If Ivan did mail out those letters, is this his attempt to mask it and BA? Look at me. I'm a good guy. I'm trying to do amazing things to help out what's going on in this country. Yeah, I think you could look at it and make that conclusion. In the fall of 2002, samples of the powder were sent to Fort Dieter. And Ivan's offered his help with the investigation. So it's kind of like when murderers inject himself into the case,

again, right, is he injected himself into this? or she's just a good guy. Right. And I think that's kind of why we're heading down this road. But back on November 14th of 2001, Ivan's committed one act in what a lot of people have called a series of suspicious behaviors. So he wrote an email titled in the lab and he attached some photos of himself bending over petri dishes of anthrax. He wrote, Hi, all, we were taking some photos today of the now infamous. aim strain of bacillus and thrasses. Here are a few. And I guess Gibbs he sent the message to his wife, to his children, some colleagues, former colleagues, high school classmates. But one of the recipients was an FBI agent working the Amerithrax case. Nancy Hague would also was a recipient of this

November 14th, 2001 email. She later told the New York Times, I read that email. I read that email and right away I thought he did it. Now even though Nancy had her suspicions, she decided to at that point keep them to herself to avoid ridicule. On December 16th, 2001 at 8.45 a.m., Dr. Ivan sent an email offering to provide the aim strain for genetic analysis or sequencing by whomever. He offered a sample of the original Ames anthrax found in 1981 from a Texas. Cal and a collection of spores sent to Ford Dietrich in 1997 from the U.S. Army base in Dougway, Utah. In 2008, prosecutors announced that they were certain. The attack powder was grown with germs from the Dougway flask Ivan's offer. So this is important. It's going to come back

later on and be a big part of, you know, why they are so certain that brings. That brings. Bruce Ivins was involved in all of this. Yeah. In early 2007, federal agents tried to narrow down their suspect. They learned that the rare aim strain of anthrax was used in the attack. So they needed to find someone who had access to it. Their profilers believed that an American with an agenda committed these attacks. The physical letters had no fingerprints, hair, or human DNA.

But the spores in the powder. were dotted with these things called morphs, which are genetically distinct variants. Agents had to collect samples of Ames, anthrax cultures around the world to find the morphs that matched the attack powder. And it was on January 23, 2002, that Bruce Ivins gave an FBI agent a tutorial on how to spot morphs in anthrax colonies. He showed the agents photos. of morphs and explained how mutations made morphs grow differently.

He suggested the FBI use morphs to catch the killer, a scientific technique that, according to everything I read, had never been used before in a criminal investigation. He also volunteered two names of people who he said had knowledge and character to have made and sent the letters. Well, if he's the guy that did this, of course he's going to have a couple of names to throw the agents off. Right. You want to point the investigation in another direction, if in fact you are the person responsible. In February 2002, the American Society for Microbiology sent an appeal

from the FBI to its 40,000 members. Their message said it's very likely that one or more of you know this individual. And it was Nancy Hakewood who called the FBI to, report her suspicions and two agents came out to visit her. After her interview, they called every now and then, but it didn't seem as though they really believed anything she said about Ivan's history of disturbing behavior. At least they didn't believe it to the point where it made him look suspicious in these attacks. On February 27th of that year, Ivan's took anthrax from his personal flask labeled RMR 1029. And he gave it to investigators who were creating the FBI worldwide library of anthrax.

Ivan's put the spores in the wrong type of glass vessel. So his sample was rejected and he was asked to submit a new one. But he hated that being so smart that he would have messed up. Maybe. In the spring of 2002, the army discovered that in December 2001, Ivan's had secretly swabbed for anthrax spores outside his secure lab space, he suspected that a technician's desk was contaminated. And he told an army investigator that he found a bacillus.

He scrubbed the desk, but he didn't write a report about the spill. But he did mention it to a Dr. Anderson, one of his friends and colleagues. The New York Times reported that in April 2002, Ivan's wrote to the army investigators, He said, I had no desire to cry wolf. I would have been agitating a lot of people for no reason. He said he didn't want to disrupt the FBI inquiry and alarm his colleagues. Ivan's told the investigators he conducted lab cleanups in April and December of 2001. In April, he conducted a search for stray anthrax spores after two researchers accidentally spilled a small amount of anthrax.

Okay. that doesn't seem like a good thing, right, to have happen. And then in December, he bleached areas that he thought were contaminated. He said he was trying to help a junior technician who thought they had mishandled anthrax. Now, these actions were said to have been against lab procedures. Ivans also wrote that he couldn't recall if he retested the desk for anthrax after his cleanup, which was required by lab regulations. So the safety office, was called to investigate. When they investigated the spill,

three strains of anthrax were found outside the lab, including the aim strain, which was used in the attacks. And some of the anthrax was actually found on the desk of Bruce Ivan. Now we're getting somewhere. Yeah, now we're really getting into the nitty gritty. And I think,

you know, he's really coming to the intention of investigators. He's on their radar. You know, as part of the investigation, the safety office looked into his employee records. And they noticed that Ivan's worked unusually late hours several nights before each of the anthrax mailings. He also lived across from Fort Dietrich and often walked to work late at night. I mean, that's not a problem, but it is suspicious when you know all this stuff is going on. Well, yeah, I think that's what I was

kind of thinking too. None of this is kind of the gotcha type of stuff. Right. But when you put it all together, you'd be hard pressed not to say that it doesn't look good. Right. It makes him look suspicious at the very least. In April 2002, Ivan's turned over a new set of samples from his RMR 1029 flask of Ames anthrax. It tested negative for morphs. But investigators took their own samples from the flask and found four morphs matching the attack powder. They tested the sample that he gave to a colleague and found a duplicate of his sample from February. Both tested positive for morphs. Rachel Lieber, the lead prosecutor, has said on the record that she believes he manipulated the sample he submitted to try to cover his tracks. But despite all of this, Ivan's

at this point was still not named a suspect because Gibbs, the police were focused on another man, Dr. Stephen J. Hatfield. Agents had been surveilling him for months. He was a physician, he was a virologist who worked at Ford Dietrich from 1997 to 1999. They found out that he forged his PhD diploma, something I think that has happened to you on a number of occasions. You got to do what you got to do. I think some people do believe. that. Now, he did earn a medical degree, but for some reason felt the need to forge a PhD. I earned my medical degree as well. It was all internet. I think it was the University of the Caribbean, if I'm not mistaken. You see. You see. Yeah. U O-C. U-O-C. U-O-T-C.

It's a beautiful diploma and a frame that I have over my desk in my office. Hey, as long as you're proud of it, man, that's really all that. matters. Best $4.99 ever spent. So apparently this guy had written a novel about a bioterrorism attack on Washington. He also wrote on his resume that he had working knowledge of bio-warfare pathogens. So you could see why investigators would be interested in looking into this guy. Also, one month before the anthrax attacks, the government suspended his security clearance because I guess he barely passed the polygraph test? I think it's either you pass flying colors or you don't pass.

No, he barely passed. I don't know what that means. Well, you're going to know what that means when you do that. The one on you. On me, yeah. So he was worried because he told his friends that he expected to be fired. And then two days before the anthrax mailings began, he filed a prescription for Cypro, an antibiotic that helps protect against.

anthrax. I think that's the antibiotic that I've actually taken. That sounds familiar. It's a pretty popular antibiotic. Yeah, it's not just for anthrax, but I guess it does help protect against anthrax. For that one, you know, virus you get sometimes. Oh, you mean that one? Yeah, that one. Yeah, we all know that one. Yeah. Is gonorrhea a virus? Sorry, I'm not trying to let anything out of the bag there. For the record, I do not have that. allegedly. So on June 25, 2002, the FBI searched Dr. Hatfield's home. Agents found what they called a harmless bacteria used as an anthrax stimulant and a notebook on anthrax dissemination. But agents were desperate to arrest this guy. They wanted it to be him. The problem is DNA tests, fiber tests,

scent dogs, none of it found any real evidence against Dr. Hatfield. They even drained two ponds near his house to search for anthrax making equipment. They thought they found what they called Gibbs a homemade glow box, which I guess is something that people build to work with dangerous materials. Yeah, but it was just a turtle trap. Yeah, turned out to be a turtle trap. So ultimately, this guy filed a lawsuit against the FBI and eventually won a $5.8 million settlement.

It's a healthy settlement. It is. But think about, you know, what someone like this goes through. If they're ultimately clear, they had nothing to do with it. But people think they mailed out, you know, all of these anthrax letters. They killed people. They're a murderer. Okay.

You better give me $5.8 million for that. Yeah, good stuff. Definitely career crushing, right? And reputational. Everything. Yeah. Yeah, you could lose your relationships. You could lose your, you could lose everything in your life. I go back to like what happened to Richard Jewell. I mean, literally everybody thought he was the Olympic Park bomber. And they really did too. Because every news outlet was reporting that he was. People see that initial story. Must be true. And they just don't go and see the follow up story. Right. And how many people. you know, see it on page 27 that, oh, they found out he wasn't. Yeah. Sorry. In 2004, scientific testing confirmed that the mailed anthrax was grown near Fort Dietrich. And I found this fascinating Gibbs. Out of 60 domestic and foreign water samples, it was determined that only water from Frederick Maryland had the same chemical signature as water that was used to grow the anthrax. Well, that is interesting. It is. I mean, what you can do scientifically to narrow down

where something came from based on the different components that was used to make it. That is. I mean, you got to admit, that is so fascinating. In early April 2004, Ivans was asked to help the FBI collect a complete set of cultures from Fort Dietrich. The FBI found 22 vials of anthrax that hadn't been previously turned over. On April 6th, the lab assistant found a test tube of material that appeared to have been removed from Ivan's flask. The assistant gave the test tube to one of Ivan's colleagues. And this guy checked with Ivans who told him to send a sample from that tube to the FBI. Ivan's even sent an email to this guy, thanking him and acknowledging that the anthrax probably came from his personal flask. So on April 7th, investigating,

seized the stray flask and the bureau ordered a number of tests on the tube and on a sample taken from the tube one was positive for morphs one was negative the army's report confirmed the presence of ames anthrax and two other anthrax strains in ivan's office ames was found near a pass box where prosecutors later confirmed ivan transferred one of the attack letters to the lap so they're really tying him. They're really trying to tie him now. Anthrax was also found in the men's changing area. The problem they had was they really couldn't identify the original source of contamination and couldn't directly pin the attacks on Ivan's. In late 2005, genetic analysis by top experts matched the spores to Dr. Ivan's flask. The problem is many of the investigators at

this point, we're still extremely focused on Dr. Hatfield. And so they kind of ignored a lot of this evidence that was building up against Bruce Ivan. Then in early 2006, the FBI contacted Nancy Haggwood for additional information. Agents asked her to begin correspondence with Dr. Ivins. I think by this point Gibbs, many in the bureau, including director Robert Mueller, wanted to move away from focusing on Hatfield so they brought in some new people. They shifted the focus to Bruce Ivan. And one of these individuals was an agent named Edward Montuth. In his opinion, Ivan's was a much better suspect than Hatfield was because Ivan's entire career was dedicated to working with anthrax. And two of Dr. Ivan's friends told Montuth that Bruce had the skills.

to produce the deadly concentrations of anthrax that was found in the letters. Well, like you said, this is his whole career. He'd been doing it for, what, 20 plus years? And he had a lot of experience with it. Also, when friends and colleagues say, yeah, this guy had the technical ability to produce what was found in the letters. Okay. I think FBI agents are going to take that.

Seriously. I think so too. I mean, I'm assuming these weren't friends outside of the professional community. They knew what all was involved. Right. They were kind of steeped in that type of work as well, is my thought. But Nancy did begin email correspondence with Bruce Ivins. According to the New York Times, he complained to her about the increased psychological screening. He said, I got so tired of the endless questions that I finally got a lawyer after almost three dozen interviews. It's a lot of interviews not to have a lawyer until after three dozen. I'm sure he viewed many of those as very benign. This is what I do. They want to talk to me about it. They want information. I'm an expert in this field. Yes. At some point, though, Gibbs, things must have shifted. Right. His thought process must have

shifted to maybe some of the questions they're asking are hitting a little close to home. Yeah, definitely shifts in December of 2006. It did because that's when Agent Montuth informed director Mueller that Ivan's was the prime suspect. He talked about Ivan's obsession with KKG and how the Princeton mailbox where the letters were sent from was just a few yards from a KKG. office. By this time, investigators had tested over 1,000 aim samples from all over the world, and they only found 10, with three or more of the morphs that matched the powder used in the mailings.

And all of those, they said, traced back to Bruce Ivan's flask. Now, there were 419 people, reportedly at Fort Dietrich, who had access to RMR 1029. all of them had been cleared except for Bruce Ivins. Investigators recovered part of Ivan's original rejected sample from RMR 1029, and they found that it contained morphs matching the powder. They compared that to the 2002 sample, and I think to them that was the proof that Ivan's had manipulated the sample to hide the morphs. We talked about it.

He put it in the wrong glass vessel. really this is a smart guy who's been doing this for a very long time he's going to make that type of what you would have to call a rookie mistake or was it done purposefully because he knew what would happen if that sample was tested i definitely see him doing this on purpose he's not an idiot he knows what he's doing well i'm sure the feelings that you're having are the exact feelings that investigators had as well. And I think it was, you know, in the months after all of this came out, you know, agents really wanted to prosecute Bruce Ivins, but they still had a lot of holes. Number one, they had no evidence putting him in Princeton, New York, no receipt showing that he

bought the envelopes using the attack, no security camera footage of him photocopying the notes. none of his emails contained, you know, even a hint of a confession. In May 2007, Dr. Ivans testified under oath twice to a grand jury. Now, he was assured by prosecutors that he wasn't a target of their investigation. He answered their questions. He only pleaded the fifth one time. And that was when he was asked about his interest in sororities. Hey, I'll answer all the questions.

Yeah. But don't ask me about my secret. sorority fetish. Not going to do it. Not going to answer that one. But I think no doubt Gibbs, at this point, they are all in on Bruce Ivins. The FBI searched his house on November 1st, 2007. They took computers, files, they took his guns. They found a shooting range in the basement. They questioned his wife and children. But what they didn't find was any anthrax matching the powder used in the mailing at his home, Fort Dietrich officials banned him from working with anthrax, which I can see

that if he's the target of this investigation. Do you really want this guy having the ability to get his hands on more of this stuff? I think the problem for Ivan's was that he felt like his life was, you know, coming apart. Hey, they think I did this. I'm not allowed to do my work anymore. in early 2008, he interviewed with federal prosecutors. He admitted to making long drives at night. He admitted to being obsessed with sororities, blindfolding, and bondage. And he couldn't explain why he was working so late in the weeks leading up to the attack.

Not long after this in March of that year, Dr. Ivan drank fruit juice and vodka mixed with Valium. He lost consciousness and was found by his, wife, Diane. She was convinced that he tried to take his own life, despite his denials. He spent the spring of 2008 in residential alcoholism treatment. When he returned home, FBI agents were still following him. It's been reported that in July of that year, Ivan's told his therapy group that he expected to be charged for five murders. So that's big news to announce to your group. Yeah, but he didn't stop there. He rambled about killing himself and also taking others with him. So it was after that

that he was removed from the lab completely. Forget about, hey, not having access to anthrax. We don't even want you in the lab, period. The FBI searched his house again. They found more guns. They found some bulletproof vests and ammo. Ivan's voluntarily checked himself into a psychiatric hospital in Baltimore. He was there for two weeks until his wife brought him home on July 24th, 2008. And it was that same day that his group therapist went to a judge to get a restraining order against Ivan's for making threats. So obviously, you know, some of this stuff that was coming out in group therapy was not good. Not only was he talking about harming himself, he obviously was talking about harming others. Also on that day at 12.31 p.m. Dr. Ivan stopped at a grocery store. He bought some

Tylenolp.m. Acedomine, and an antihistamine. He filled three different prescriptions. At 121 p.m., he purchased a second container of Tylenolp.m. According to the New York Times, from July 24th to the 26th, Diane Ivins went back to her daily routine. She said, she noticed Bruce was sleeping a lot, but he still got up. He went outside to check the mail. On a note, he wrote to his wife, I have a terrible headache. I'm going to take some Tylenol and sleep in tomorrow. Please let me sleep, please. The next day on July 27th, Diane found her husband, Bruce, on the bathroom floor. He was unconscious, but breathing rapidly. She called 911 and he was rushed to the hospital at 147 a.m. Ivins had taken a lethal dose of over-the-counter medication.

He was in a coma but woke up a few hours later. When a nurse asked him if he tried to take his own life, he nodded yes. Dr. Bruce Evans eventually died from overdose complications on July 29th, 2008. He was 62 years old. On August 6th of that year, the Justice Department called a news conference to disgusty evidence against Ivins, U.S. Attorney Jeffrey Taylor made the statement, we believe that based on the evidence we had collected, we could prove his guilt to a jury beyond a reasonable doubt. Based on the totality of the evidence we had gathered against him, we're confident that Dr. Ivans was the only person responsible for these attacks. Their statement declared that unless new evidence surfaced, Dr. Ivans was the likely perpetrator.

Dr. Hatfield was cleared of any wrongdoing. And obviously we know he later got a big, big settlement. Big payday. A clause in Dr. Ivan's will said that if he wasn't cremated and his ashes scattered, $50,000 from his estate would be donated to Planned Parenthood, an organization that his wife hated. So this led the FBI Gibbs to theorize that Ivan sent letters to, the senators he did because they were pro-choice and Ivan's was anti-abortion. On October 6th,

his ashes were scattered at an unspecified location. I did find that very strange to write that in your will. I mean, obviously that's what he wanted to have done, but to say, hey, if you don't do this, 50 grand from my estate is going to plan to parenthood, which I know you, you're you hate, right? Basically saying that to his wife. This is an incentive for you to carry out my wishes. Yep. The Ameritrax investigation was formally concluded on February 19th, 2010, ending the largest investigation into a bio-weapons attack in U.S. history. But Gibbs, not everyone was convinced that Bruce Ivans was the perpetrator. Some of his colleagues thought he was innocent. They tried to do their own review of some of the evidence. Apparently, army officials ordered them to drop what

they were doing. And then on February 15th, 2011, a group of independent scientists convened by the National Academy of Sciences released a review of the science used in the FBI investigation. The panel concluded that the evidence is consistent with the idea that Dr. Ivans was the perpetrator. But on its own, the science doesn't prove he did it. So I think you got to break this down. This is very interesting, right? Because you have this in a lot of cases. Everything, including some of the science, is pointing to the fact that he and he alone did this.

But does it absolutely 100% prove it? No. They couldn't say that. Would it have been enough for a jury? Probably. I think so. I mean, that's a, it's a what if because it never got that far. In July 2011, the federal government came under fire for contradicting its own assertions

and a Florida lawsuit involving Robert Stevens family. Robert Stevens was the first person to die in the anthrax letter mailings. His family accused the government. government of negligence and some employees within the Department of Justice reported that they had problems with the investigation as part of their filings in the lawsuit. Then later in September, lawyers filed a sworn FBI declaration with 60 points reaffirming Ivan's guilt. So it sounds to me like they were circling the wagons, right? Some people were saying, huh, we're not so sure. we've got to circle the wagons and everybody's got to get on board and say here's all the things

again that we think prove his guilt. An attorney for the Stevens family responded by saying that the government changed its filing because the evidence is conflicting. Several scientists who were questioned were sure of Ivan's innocence because they said he didn't have the technical skill to make the anthrax into powder. But the FBI argued that these witnesses didn't qualify as testimony experts because they were speculating. So there's some conflicting information there, right? So you have some people saying, no way.

Did he have the technical know-how to make the powder? Others that knew him said, yeah. Yeah. He could have easily done this. Almost like an expert in it. The lawsuit was finalized on November 28, 2011, and a $2.5 million settlement was paid to the Stevens family. So Gibbs, as it stands today, and this is obviously a little strange for a true crime all the time episode, the anthrax murders case remains unsolved. I think to most people from the totality of the evidence, it does seem like Bruce Evans is the likely perpetrator.

Sure. But at the same time, there are some problems with the investigation, some inconsistencies that I think you have to question. There's no doubt. This guy was a little strange. He had a pattern of disturbing behaviors. The question is, was he really a killer? Now, I do believe that a lot of people look at the fact that he knew that the authorities were closing in on him. He took his own life. as a sign of his guilt. Does it mean he was guilty? No, but I think a lot of people look at that and say, well, why would he do that? Well, it leans more towards the way of guilt versus not guilt. I think, yeah, I think most people would say that exact same thing. The one thing that I point to is the fact that the FBI, the army, they've never changed. their stance on publicly stating that Dr. Bruce Evans was the perpetrator.

He was the one who mailed out these anthrax letters. Does that mean they're 100% right? No, you can never say that. But obviously, they have a lot more information than we do. Sure. They have a lot of information that probably was never disclosed. And to be so confident in those statements, it means something.

I think it does. I think it does too. And I think the majority of people think it was him. There's obviously people that do not believe that he did this, but. But everybody has the right to a trial and due process and all that stuff. He didn't get his day in court. Oh, he could have had it, though. Yeah, but he checked out early.

That's the thing. And I can only go by the facts as we know them. But, you know, you also look at public opinion, and I would say most people believe that it was him. I think, and I think we both agree. But that's it for our episode on the anthrax murders. We've got some voicemails Gibbs. You want to check those out? Yeah, let's hear him.

Hey, this is Sarah. I am from Southup with Chicago. I was just given a call because I am leaving from my very first solo road trip. I guess not really road trip. It's about four and a half hours, but you guys are going to be deep and me company and you always need company at work. I'm a long-term listener, a person I've called. I think I've been listening for about two years and what you guys do.

Team Mike, not either of you, but keep up the great work and stay safe and you keep your own time taking, bike. Four and a half hours. That's a road trip. Yeah. And your first one. Yeah. Right?

That's like freedom, the open road. Do you remember the first time you ever got in a car for? a three, four, five hour drive. I do. I remember going to visit my grandparents in Tennessee. I was driving from Ohio. I felt like DiCaprio on the Titanic, man. I was the king of the world.

I remember that too. I was 14, stole that car, went for, you know, very long time with that grand theft. Yeah. It was the 50s. So the police had a hard time. Whatever. Catching up to you.

Hi, Mike. Hi, hi, Gibby. My name's Christina. I'm a fairly new listener. I actually started with your more recent episodes, and I work my way down. But I decided to start from me getting, and I just wanted to say, in your first episode, obviously you guys are still figuring things out, but I think I'm on the Donald Harvey episode right now, and I think it's only like the six or seventh episode that you guys have out.

And I just wanted to say you guys grow into your routine so quickly, and it sounds like you just released it, you know. but I definitely love everything that you guys do and how you highlight the victim and, you know, have respect to them. And you're very detailed with the information that you give us. But anyway, thank you and keep your own time ticking. Well, definitely appreciate the kind of words. You know, I remember back to the very beginning, Gibbs. It's almost been five years. Yeah.

Now it will be five years in November. It wasn't easy. starting out you and I had zero background. That's exactly right. And anything to do with media and putting together a show or or anything like that. So, you know, it did take us a while to kind of figure out what type of show we wanted and and what type of delivery and all that. Yeah. How we were going to record it.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, the first, however many, we recorded over Skype. We weren't even in the same room. So it obviously made things a little different. Yeah. We couldn't see each other's facial expressions and no kind of play off each other's body language and things like that. It's definitely better once we came into the studio.

Yeah. No doubt about it. Hey, Mike Squared. It's Dave calling from Toronto, Ontario, Canada. I just wanted to say I just recently started listening to you guys, what a year ago? I've been hooked ever since. You guys are fantastic. I just got finished listening to the Bernardo episode, which you guys nailed.

Yeah, that was nuts. Anyways, I'm just calling to say that there was another one that went down about a few years ago. The name is Dellen Mallard. Yeah, he's like an onion. Once you start going through it, it peels back pretty crazy. Anyways, yeah, keep your own time ticking and have a good one, guys. Cheers. Well, I can definitely say that Mallor,

is on the list. For sure. Yeah, definitely on the list. There's so many that we want to do. Obviously, we can only do one a week. Yeah. And we try to mix it up and go different places and change up the tone of the episodes. Cadence.

Hey, how about that? Okay, I'll go with that. These big words every now and then, too. But not always effectively. But, yeah, I mean, I love it when you throw the big words in there. But we appreciate it. We really do. No mail bag this week, Gibbs.

So that's it. All right. For another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.