True Crime All The Time - The Baseline Killer

Episode Date: March 4, 2019

Phoenix Arizona had two different serial killers operating in 2005 and 2006. Mark Goodeau was ultimately identified as one of them, the Baseline killer. Goodeau had recently done almost 14 years in prison and had a long rap sheet. He went on to commit at least 9 murders and many more robberies and sexual assaults.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the brutal crimes committed by Goodeau and the process police went through to identify him. Goodeau contends that the police planted all of the evidence used against him in the Baseline killing case. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationSponsors:Betterhelp.com/tcattCrimes of Passion podcast See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 120 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime. Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you? That's how are doing very good? Thank you very much. Thank you. I'm just one guy. You don't have to go full cousin Vinnie on me. No, no, it's just all right. I hope you're doing good twos. Yes. Tews. Yes. The use and the twos. Absolutely. No, I'm doing great, man. That's good. So we released a Patreon episode last week. Yes, it did. Got some good feedback from it.

It's a good episode. Why are you talking like that? I don't know. I don't. All right, cut it out. That was a good episode, man. It was. No, people seem to like it.

We got some great feedback from it. So speaking to Patreon, let's do our Patreon shout out. Let's do it. We had Wayne and Julie Hodge. Hey, Wayne, Julie. Tracy Revoy. Ooh, Tracy. Lindsay King up to our highest level.

Thanks, Lindsay. Amber Scott Thank you Amber Monica Geroor I don't know how we settled on that We'll go Geroor Brittany Ramallo

Hey Brittany Romano Ramallo Romalo You keep wanting to Like Malo like Like those little cookies You can buy With the marshmallow on them

Malo? No I've got that look like What are you talking about? You're talking about the ones that look like Risi's cups Yeah But there's marshmallow inside

Yeah You call them cookies They're not cookies Oh they look like cookies No they're Don't. They look like, they look exactly like Reesey cups, except for peanut, instead of peanut butter, there's a bunch of marshmallows.

So they're a, like a candy bar then. I guess. But not a bar. They're definitely not a cookie. They're a sweet. They're sweet. Lisa Klossack. Hey, Lisa.

Bob Garrett. Thanks, Bob. Christine Salonge. Salonge. Salon's, I like that. Stacey Kittredge jumped out at our highest level. Hey, thanks, Stacey. Sam Paredico.

Sierra Corbett. Hey, Ciren. A lot of names that. Sound familiar from criminology? Yeah. A lot of people supporting all of our shows. Jumping over around. Good.

I appreciate that. Christine Hernandez. Hey, Christine. Frederick Blake. Hey, Frederick. Christopher Austin. Thanks. Christopher.

Amy Leveck. Ooh, Leveck. That's a fun name to say. Yeah. Kristen Menace. She's not tiny, but she's a menace. Ashley Whitehead. Hey, Ashley.

Sue Kelly jumped up past our highest level. Well, with a double first name. What else do you? expect. You got to do it. And then last but not least, Candice Zugich. Zugich. What if they call her a egg? A Zoug. For short. The Zoug. Zug in the house. I love nicknames, man. Yeah. And then we go back into the Volgibs. This week we selected Valerie Power. Hey, Valerie. Longtime supporter. Yeah. She's a VP. She's got it all going on, man. Well, she's been with us from early stages, man. Early stages. So we appreciate that. We appreciate

all the new Patreon support, the continued support. We had some great PayPal support as well. Yvonne in the UK. Hey, Yvonne. Michelle Milam or Millam? Millum? I don't know. M.M. Terrence. Terrence. It's a rich family. I don't know. The Schwabes. The Schwabes. Yeah. Andre Chabani, like a yogurt. Kind of. Yeah. That's, there's a rich family. Jennifer Wormuth. Hey, Jennifer. And Derek Paff. Paff? Mm-hmm. Don't pf around, buddy.

I had to think about it. It's P-F. How would you say that? P-F-A-F-F. Faff or Paff? Faff. One of those has got to be silent. Fafé?

Parfay. How do you get parfay out of that? I don't know. One of those has to be silent. What a man. It's kind of a pick-re poison type of thing. All right, Gibb, so on true crime all the time unsolved. Right now we have out the fourth and final part.

of our series on the West Memphis three case, the murders of Stevie Branch, Michael Moore, and Chris Byers. Yes. I think it's really good. I think people are going to like it. I know four episodes is a lot for us to do on anything. This case is just so freaking massive. We knew going into it was going to be at least three.

Yeah. And then once we got there, there's no way it could be three. No, not for us to do it the way we want to do it. Yeah. So check that out. Definitely good. CrimeCon badges. Don't forget if you're buying them, use crime all the time.

19. That's our promo code. Meet us down there, grab a bonnet. A bunet. Or whatever they're called. It's like a John Bonnet. It's a Benet. Oh, Benet.

Benet. Hey, me, doesn't just have a Benet. I've gotten a lot on the Benier talk. There's a lot of people saying, you know, hey, just make your own using like the pastries that you buy and you just roll them out. And then you do this, this and this. Oh. But I don't want to have to do that. And that may be true.

I'm not discounting that fact, but I'm telling you there's nothing like the ones at Cafe Dumond. There's just nothing like it. So it's a go-to. We're definitely going there. Oh, it's, I mean, it's historic. It's, it's old. It's just amazing. Smelly?

No. No? Smells like chicory coffee and bignets is what it smells like. It's like heaven for you, isn't it? Oh, I love it. Are you going to wear your, your little outfit? My little outfit. You know what I'm talking about.

I don't know. know. I don't have a special bignet outfit if that's what you're asking. Your furry outfit. No. Why would you need a furry outfit to sit and eat in bignets and drink coffee? I didn't know why we were there for crime con if there was like a little mini furry convention going on the same time. Never know with you. But let's just assume there's not at all times. Yeah. All right, Gibbs. You ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am. Let's do it. Let's do it, brother. We are talking about Mark Gudo, the baseline killer. And we actually got some help from this episode. Very much appreciated from Kelly Hurst and Tina Horn.

Yeah. They provided us with some research material, all kinds of stuff. Backup. It was great. Thank you, ladies. So big shout out has to go out to them. And I know they spent a long time working on it. Yeah.

That's what every time somebody helps us out with a case, the one thing that everybody comes away with is, wow, I had no. idea how hard it was to gather. Yeah. Put, you know, this all together in, in kind of a format. Yeah. You got to research it, take it all in and figure out how you're going to spit it back out. Yep. But we, we appreciate it.

So we are in the Phoenix, Arizona area for this case. And we're talking about one of the most notorious serial killers in Arizona history. So we go back to 2005, 2006. time frame. Phoenix had a big problem. Gibbs. Actually, they had two big problems. Yeah, they did. They had two different serial killers running around on the loose, caused the deaths of at least 17 people over what was about a 16 month time frame. Not a good time to be someone that lived in that area. No, it was scary for everyone. Now, that's the number of people that lost their lives. But there were many more. especially in the case that we're going to talk about that were injured, assaulted, sexually assaulted, robbed.

So they had a serial killer that they had named the serial shooter. Basically because this person was a sniper driving around the city, shooting people out of his car window. That's pretty damn scary. It is scary, man. Random targets. It kind of reminds me of the DC sniper. A little bit. A little bit.

You know, and it came out over time that most of the victims that this person was targeting, there were a lot of street people, right? Because they're driving around. So they're naturally going to be shooting people on the street. Right. There were some transients, some homeless people, some sex workers. But then you just had Joe Smith. who just happened to be walking down the street at night.

At the wrong time. Or Mary Smith or whoever. The second one, and like I said, the one that we'll be talking about in this episode was the baseline killer. Yeah. This is a man that grabbed women off the street, committed a number of robberies, sexual assaults, murdered at least nine people, had a habit of striking at night time. also had a habit of shooting people in the head.

That was kind of his M.O. Kind of ruthless. Yeah, very. So by the summer of 2006, you know, both of these serial killers operating, neither had been caught. It's all over the news. Like we said, the city of Phoenix was living in fear. Well, yeah, I can't even imagine.

You know, you just didn't know what was going to happen when you went around the corner from your house. probably a lot of people didn't want to leave their house, especially at night. So the police created two different task forces, had hundreds of officers working on each one. But they got some relief in August of 2006. That's when police identified and arrested two men, Sam Dieterman and Dale Hosner, as the serial shooters. So it turned out to be two different guys that were. driving around shooting people.

Right. There was actually a third man who would also be connected to the case. I'm not sure that he actually fired any of the shots that killed anybody, but he was part of it. Still has some form of responsibility to it. Yeah. He was responsible for something. And I'm sure we'll cover this in greater detail in a future podcast. I'm telling you, these two cases are somewhat intertwined. Number one, they happened in the same area.

And number two, they overlapped in time frame somewhat. So you can't help really in researching the baseline killer to stumble upon this serial shooting case. I think it could make for a whole episode. There is a lot out there. They murdered a lot of people. But they have these three guys. They have the two shooters. But the baseline killer is still out there, right?

Summer of 2006. That was not. the original name for this person. Because he started out as the baseline rapist. This was after Phoenix police made an announcement that a light-skinned African-American male was sexually assaulting females at gunpoint near baseline road. Some of these victims Gibbs, as young as 12 years old. It's pretty damn young.

No, it really is. But it's important to talk about, right? This person started out being a serial rapist, very reminiscent of the Golden State killer graduated to murder later on. Now, this person didn't take it out that far in time. No. His crimes happen, you know, much quicker in a much shorter time span. Definitely going to ramp up than GSK.

But that's also how you. get the name baseline, right? Whether it was baseline rapist, baseline killer later on, it's because a lot of these crimes were occurring on and around this baseline road. Exactly. Yeah, just in that small geographical location. He became known as the baseline killer in the spring of 2006 after investigators began to link what by that time was already a series of murders and armed robberies to the rapist. So now it's just one big case that they were calling the baseline killer. And it would take them a little bit, but police eventually connect the murders and the

assaults and all of it to a man named Mark Goodot. So as we often do, let's talk about Mark a little bit. He was born September 6, 1964 in Phoenix, Arizona. the youngest of 14 children. Man, 14 kids. To have 13 brothers and sisters. And you're the youngest. And you're the youngest ones.

That's like having a bunch of extra mommies and daddies, man. Because they're going to tell you what you can and can't do. Oh, okay. I was thinking more along the lines of you're the youngest, you're the smallest, you're having to fight and scrap for your food. You're constantly being kicked around. and your siblings are probably using you as a punching bag at times. You definitely screwed on the Baker dozen.

You still don't get yours. No, because you're one out. Yeah, so it's not right. 14, man. That's, who. His father, Willie, worked at a car dealership. His mother, Alberta, worked as a maid. And I imagine Gibbs it took every bit that they made at these jobs to support 14 kids.

I mean, if you're working at a car lot as an attendant, and you're a maid, absolutely. They probably didn't have steak every night. No, and there was no, you know, there was no extra toys. There was no, let's go to the ice cream shop. You're not going to have that. And you think of being the youngest, too. You imagine what the hammy downs look like?

Yeah, but you got a lot to choose from. Yeah, yeah, you had a lot to choose from. But by the time you got it, I would say it was very worn, very comfortable. And God forbid, you're a husky boy. Why'd you have to bring Husky into it? So funny, somebody sent me an email the other day. They were ordering something for their son. Yeah.

And I don't know what site it was or what company, but at the bottom, there was two options. Right. Regular and Husky. Husky. So they circled the Husky and emailed that to me because they got a big kick out of it. I used to be the Husky boy.

We know you did. But his parents fought a lot. It was a fairly dysfunctional home. Maybe because it's the 14. Well, yeah, money's tight. Yeah. It's going to be rough. Yeah.

I think it always is in that situation. Add on top of that, Willie was said to have been verbally abusive. He had issues with alcoholism. That's not good. It's not a good combination. And he was very strict on the 14 children. Like I can kind of see well it depends on what very strict is. Yeah.

I can see where you need to be kind of, I want to say organized or have some type of structure with that many kids. I got the sense that this was more than structure. This was more than, hey, we need to be organized because this is, you know, we got these two paychecks and everything's got to last. I got the sense that he was overly more like, this is my house. You're going to do what I want. Yeah.

Strict, domineering. you know, doled out the whippings. That's, that's what I got. Kind of like when I come here, you're like, this is my house, this is my studio. Here's your wooden chair, sit down. Oh, geez, Pete. Here's my used mic.

You get to have that. Bend over and take your whipping. I don't even know why you had to go there. If you're going to go the wooden chair ride. Yeah. The wooden chair alone is bad enough. But Alberta died in 1976. So Mark would have been around 12 years old.

he moved in with his older sister, which, you know, he's the youngest and she's, I mean, that could be a pretty good span of age. Yeah, obviously it would take us 20 minutes to talk about all his brothers and sisters and their ages and all that, but she could, she could be in her 30s for all we know. Oh, yeah. Yeah, easily. But he lived with his older sister. He went to high school in Tempe, Arizona. He was good at sports. He was good at football, played on the school football team. but he never graduated, didn't have enough credits. I think he was better at sports than he was at academics, which a lot of us were. Yeah, it must have been that time when you didn't have to worry about carrying a certain GPA to play.

Or like in my case, it always seemed like the coach was the English teacher or, you know. Yeah. So if you were a good enough athlete, you got special treatment. You did okay during your season time. And I wasn't even that great of an athlete. Yeah, I agree with you. Well, all you had to do is walk in with your singlet on. That's it.

And then you get A plus plus and you're off to the next class. Yeah. I don't know why he kept me after class every time, though. I don't know why you thought you had to wear tights in the classroom. I just thought it was what I had to do. I just followed my instructions. You were just wearing the required uniform. Well, he's showing me all the different moves that you can do.

Tights. So Mark's not going to go on to college, right? Didn't graduate high school. He worked at various jobs. He got into construction. But one thing about Mark Goudot, and you're going to hear this from different periods of his life, he was a popular guy. People liked him.

Which is surprising. He was a likable person. Yeah. Neighbors. Co-workers? Yeah. They all did. They said he was a hard worker.

Now, it came out that he had some issues with. with alcohol and cocaine, and later on, he's going to blame a lot of his crimes, murders, everything on substance abuse. Well, I mean,

he had a dad that had a alcohol problem. And then, I mean, he did grow up through the big cocaine era. As did you. I know. You didn't turn out to be a... That's why I have no nasal hair left.

Serial killer that you know of. Because I'm, a good guy too. You are a good guy. Yeah. But we'll talk about it a little bit later as we get further in time about what it means to be a good guy if you're a serial killer. But I do want to Gibbs talk a little bit about some of Mark Gudeau's early crimes. They're kind of substantial. In 1982, he was arrested along with one of his brothers for raping a young woman. That's kind of a big deal. It's a huge. deal, they were never charged because the victim at a certain point decided that she didn't want to press charges. She didn't want to go through with it. We talked about that on, I think on the last episode. Yeah, that happens a lot. I think it's tough. It's tough for a victim. They don't want to relive it. I know. You know, you're asking a lot from somebody that has already gone through something extremely traumatic to say, okay, now I need you to tell me everything that happened, but also be willing to

stand up in a court of law with this person that just did this to you and tell 12 people. And know that they're going to probably come back and say that you're lying or that you provoked it. Or you have character flaws. Exactly. You know, again, I don't want to get too much into our system. It's a good system. But I think that's asking a lot of victims. Well, on that case for sure. I don't know how you get around it, but it is asking a lot. Then in 1985, actually on his 20th birthday, he abducted a 22-year-old woman.

Because that's what you do on your birthday is go out and take somebody hostage. At gunpoint. At gunpoint. This was in Phoenix. He forced her to another location where he raped her. And then he fled on foot, but not until after he made her drive them both back to where he originally abducted her. Now, this is a very interesting case.

And they had his DNA. They didn't know what DNA was, right? Back then, they couldn't do anything with what they had. Right. But they had evidence that years later would result in DNA. But it wouldn't be until two. 2013, well after all these crimes that we're going to talk about, the trials, everything, that Goudot was linked to this 1985 sexual assault. Again, by that time, he's already in prison.

He's the baseline killer. There's no secret. We've already said he's the guy. Right. And the statute of limitations had expired. And that's what always bugs me about all these rape kits that are in the case. these trailers everywhere. Yeah, you've talked about that before. They just don't have the money to process them. But you know by the time they do, depending on where they're at, I mean, it just not might even matter.

Well, I will say at a certain point in time, I don't know what year, Arizona changed that. They removed the statute of limitations altogether from sexual assaults, which I absolutely agree with. Sure. I don't think there should be an expiration on a heinous. sexual assault. If you did it, you did it. And you should have to pay for it. Yeah, I agree with you. 100%. So they couldn't make him pay for it. It's not going to matter, right? This guy never getting out of prison. Yeah, he's not going anywhere. But by the same token, if they had that DNA technology in

1985, maybe he's put away. Maybe he never has a chance to commit all these murders. I mean, that's a it's a maybe but it's kind of a neither here nor there because the technology just didn't exist yeah i mean you couldn't use it so there was no way for it to happen so i said they removed the statute of limitations but it didn't apply to any cases that came before so that's that's the reason why they couldn't do anything with him now they were able to tell this victim's family that hey we know it was him there's nothing we can do hopefully that gives you some closure yeah think it did probably they they know that this guy is never getting out of prison he was charged with trespassing in 1987 driving under the influence the year after that in 89 he was charged with

abducting a woman brutally raping her and savagely beating her with a shotgun and a barbell what the heck man it's brutal that's it's very brutal Then when confronted by police Gibbs, he tried to say that she had willingly given him oral sex and that the rape and assault was actually committed by two other men. Okay. She wanted to go down on me. Then I was done. And these two strangers came up and raped her. Wasn't me.

Yeah. Okay. That's what he tried to say. This was very tough for police to believe because he had also chased away a couple of of witnesses with the shotgun. So they were pretty sure it was him. Yeah. They, they, they said, hey, this is the guy that chased me. Why is he chasing me with a gun? Because I just saw him sexually assaulting this woman. Right. If he didn't do it. Exactly. And I know he did because I just witnessed it with my own two eyeballs. Before he was even sentenced for this 1989 sexual assault,

he got arrested again for robbing a supermarket. So you're getting ready to go on trial. But while you're out, let's say on bail. Yeah. Once you go ahead and rob a supermarket. Even though your attorney price said, why don't you lay low? Yeah. Just stay in the house.

Don't go anywhere. So all in all, when it was all said and done, he got 21 years of which he served 13 and a half. Of course. Hey, now 14 years in prison, that's no joke. That's some real time. It's real time. Yeah.

Highly justified. It's not the normal five years suspended sentence, two years probation. But look at this guy's rap sheet already. He's wrecked up, you know, some serious damage. That's a lot for someone. It's just barely 25. Yeah. Yeah.

He had amassed quite a record. So he served, you know, almost 14 years, was paroled in 2004. As part of his release, he was required to submit DNA samples. And that's important, right? Because this case, in part, is going to hinge on DNA. All right, Gibbs, let's take a quick break to talk about our sponsor BetterHelp. If anyone out there has anything that's interfering with their happiness or is preventing them from achieving their goals. Better help online counseling is there for you.

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All you have to do is fill out a questionnaire. That helps them assess your needs, but also helps them match you with a counselor you will love. That's BetterHelp.com slash T-Cat. And then Gibbs, we want to tell everyone about a new podcast from Parcast called crimes of passion. We have talked about this so many times, Gibbs, love. Sometimes it can be deadly. You know, you look at a lot of couples around you in your lives and you think, man, they look really happy. But we don't always know what happens behind closed doors. So every week, the Parkast Network's new podcast, Crimes of Passion, looks into what happens when true love meets true crime. Crimes of Passion analyzes the relationship dynamics and the psychology that leads to betrayal, crimes, and even murder. But sometimes it takes being betrayed by someone you love to discover the true monster inside them. New episodes of Crimes of Passion come out every Wednesday. You can listen to the first episode out right now. It's on Wilma Hoyt and look for upcoming episodes on Amy Fisher and Joey Betifuco, Lorena Bobbitt, and Jody Arias.

So search for and subscribe to Crimes of Passion. Wherever you listen to podcast. Again, search crimes of passion or visit parkast.com slash passion to listen right now. Now we get into the first sexual assault attributed to what was first known as the baseline rapist. This happened on August 6th, 2005. He committed another sexual assault later that month. There's so many crimes. Gibbs in this story committed by the base. Rapest, the baseline killer. There's no way that you and I can go into detail about all of them. We really won't even be able to dive into the victims as much as we normally like to.

Just too many. There's too many victims. And it's sad because you and I kind of hang our hat on trying to get out as much information as we can on the victims. I'm just putting it out up front. We're not going to be able to do it. No. We will talk about some of the crimes and murders that lead to his arrest.

Some key ones. Yeah. I hate to say that some are more key than others, but obviously they are when it comes to his arrest and his prosecution. Sure. Evidence and things like that. So on September 9th, a 19-year-old exotic dancer named Georgia Thompson was found with a gunshot wound to the head.

I mentioned it. This is kind of his MO. He shot women in the head. Police recovered a cartridge casing at the scene. That's going to be important for ballistics. This was the baseline killer's first murder. And that was his thing. Like you said, he shot him in the head.

But he also liked to get in their face. He was the type of guy that when even before the murders, even on the sexual assaults, he would get into their face and be very verbally abusive. So he was definitely one of those just over the top, you know, angry type of guy. He was extremely violent. Yeah. Very volatile.

There were a large number of sexual assaults and robberies attributed to the baseline killer that occurred in September and November of that first year, 2005. But one that occurred in September, September 20th is particularly significant. Goudreau attacked two sisters, one who was pregnant while they were walking home from a water park. He first attempted to sexually assault the younger sister, the one that was not pregnant. And the way that I understood it, Gibbs, was that as he was trying to do this, in order to do this, he had to put his gun down. And when he did, this girl grabbed it. But she could not figure out how to fire the weapon. My assumption is it probably had a safety or it needed to be cocked.

I don't know. I didn't get to specifics. Right. There was something about the gun that she didn't know that she needed to do to make it fire. But she did get a hold of it. And at one point, her and her sister and Goudot are wrestling with this gun. Now, he's finally able to get it back. And it said that he pointed the gun at the pregnant sister's belly and he told her to beg for her life.

And her baby's life. Yeah. And the life of her unborn child. I mean, we're just, we are talking about a very sick bastard here. Make no mistake about it. But in a move that I think was somewhat strange for him. You know, this, this thing did not go his way. He was not very successful in what he.

he wanted to do. I almost hate to use the term successful. It didn't work out the way he wanted it to work out. But he made the decision to let these two girls go. Yeah. Even though they had seen his face, you know, but he did something very strange. Before he let them go, he made them both spit in his hand. He took their spit that was now together in his hand. He mixed it with dirt. And then he rubbed it on the younger sister's breast because and this will all come out later he was trying to cover up DNA that he had left on her breast during the sexual assault his saliva and he knew it was on her breast from obviously things that he did during the assault he thought this would eliminate it completely make it impossible for anybody to figure out it was him you figure

just zeroed out, huh? Yeah. You just like you're just mixing it all up. No way they're going to be able to tell it was me. It's pretty tricky. I don't know that I've ever heard of anybody doing that. If it actually would have worked. Yeah. The problem is it didn't work because it's going to be that DNA later on that is really going to connect Goodo to this crime. And we'll talk about it more, you know, later on in December of 2005. 39-year-old Tina Washington was found shot in the head behind a fast food restaurant. This murder is significant for the fact that a piece of her jewelry is going to be crucial later on in the case of Mark Gudeau. I almost hate the way I'm saying this Gibbs. They're all significant. But again, for the sake of time, we can only talk about certain ones in any amount of detail. Yeah, and I would say Tina's is maybe her evidence is the one that puts the nail in the coffin.

Yeah, and I think I think that's true. And we'll detail out what that is later on. But so many more robbery, sexual assaults and murders in 2005 and into 2006, a woman was assaulted in front of her daughter by Goudo and then forced to drive the car as her daughter. as her daughter was assaulted. Oh, man, that's terrible. In February 2006, Romilia Vargas and Merna Roman were found dead, both shot in the head in their lunch truck. So they made food.

Yeah. In a truck. And that's where they were found dead. One of those truck deliveries that went door to businesses? Yeah. The roach coach? No. Those are great, man.

Lunch trucks are the best. Oh, man. I'm sure some are not as clean as others, but... I remember those them by UPS days. Some of the best food I ever had has been from a truck. Yeah. Now, a lot of it's been at 2 o'clock at night after the bar closed, so it may not have actually been as good as I thought it was.

A taco. Who knows what you ate. But again, I know we're not talking about the victims as much as we like, but these are all people with families. None of these people had done anything wrong. No. I never got to live to their... potential and who knows what they could have done in life.

Sure. Now, the next month, so March 2006, George Chow, it's not his real first name, but everybody called him George. Yeah. His first name was kind of like Chow. I don't know how you pronounce it, but I really didn't want to say chow chow chow chow. Which you just did. I just did.

But you're right. Why would you want to say chow chow chow? Yeah. That's a southern relish anyway. Is it? Yeah. Chow. I never heard of it.

So we'll call him George, because I think a lot of people did call him. call him George. Right. And Lilliana Cabrera. Ooh, Cabrero. They worked together at a restaurant. George was going to give her a ride home, but they were abducted at gunpoint. As they got into their car behind the restaurant, they were both killed and their bodies

were found within a mile of each other. I'm almost convinced if you're taken by gunpoint to act right then. So it's funny. that you say that because you know I have a habit of watching YouTube videos. Sometimes I get on a streak where I can't stop watching them. Last night I was watching one. I was watching some of my road rage videos. But one came up that was about self-defense.

And they were using a real shooting caught on CCTV or something. What happened was this guy was carrying. Two guys came up on him. and one of them pulled a gun. This guy that was carrying, as soon as he saw the gun, he pulled his. But that's when he got shot. So this instructor was actually an instructor on the YouTube video was saying, I think the term is you can't pull from the drop,

meaning this guy acted too soon. Right. He needed to wait for his opportunity. Opportunity. Yeah. Is what he was saying. Not to get into too much gun talk, but it kind of made me think of that.

when you said, I do understand what you're saying, because you and I have talked about this a little bit on other episodes. And I know there's statistics and we don't have them in front of us or anything like that that say, I believe what they say is you're better off if you're forced into a car or something like that fighting your way out, I think. Yeah. I hate to give out bad information, but I think I've seen some stats like that. Right. I think. the beginning part is critical. If you can avoid getting in a car, I think you're probably better off.

Yeah. But again, you know, I'm no expert. Well, in every situation is different because you don't know what the person is thinking.

Yeah. But again, the key is do you want to take that chance? I certainly don't want to drive somewhere private with him. No. Chow is the only male victim of the baseline killer.

My assumption is Gibbs he was not the intended target. I don't think if he was a loan that the baseline killer would have gone after him. Just a casualty of the, the hunt. Maybe. Yeah.

Yeah, maybe. Christina Gibbons was a known sex worker. She was found dead, stuffed in between a building and a shed, like an object. Yeah. Let me just toss this over here. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Literally stuffed, like wedged is the way that I took it. Then you get into April. Sophie Nunez was shot in the head in her bathtub. This is a very sad story because it's her eight-year-old son, Gilbert, that finds her a few hours later, an eight-year-old finding his mother shot to death in the bathtub. How horrific would that be?

Yeah. It's very disturbing. Obviously, that's going to affect somebody. for the rest of their life. No doubt about it. Scarred. But police didn't connect this one to the baseline killer for several months. But I think gives what's extremely significant about this murder is Sophie Nunez was the only

victim of the baseline killer that had a connection to Mark Gudeau. Yeah, because Mark did some handyman work on her house. He did. He did. He actually, I think, her at a bar at some point. I think he had a crush on her. Well, I think the phone records probably prove that.

Yeah. Eventually, they're going to get a hold of his phone records and find out that he called her a bunch of times. And Sophie had a daughter, a teenage daughter that would later say after seeing a picture of Mark Goudot, obviously his picture is going to be splashed all over the place. She recognized him. She had actually seen him at the mall. When she was with her mom, her mom said hi to him.

They talked for a little while. I think he called her so many times. He wanted her to go out with him. The daughter even has backed this up that her mom told her this. He asked her out a lot. She shot him down. She just, there was something about him. Her mother said that she didn't trust.

She didn't want to go out. with him, police did find some DNA at the murder scene that would later be tied to Mark Godot. And then let's talk about the last known homicide of the baseline killer. It actually happened on my birthday. June 29th, 2006, a woman named Carmen Miranda was talking to her boyfriend on the phone is around 9.30 p.m. She was at a car wash using the big vacuum. to vacuum out her car. Yeah, the super vac. The super vac, which is what I do to, drive down, put four quarters in the machine and

suck away. You get a lot of suction that way. Those vacuums are very powerful. You would know. But this is what this woman's doing that night. She's on the phone with her boyfriend when she told him that there was a man walking up to her. And in her words, she said he looked like a panhandler. If somebody begging for money or is going to ask for money, then all of a sudden, Gibbs,

she screamed and the call dropped. That would be the worst. That would be the absolute worst. If I'm talking to my wife and she screams and now I can't get a hold of her, the phone is dead, I'm in full flight panic mode. Yeah, man, just a nightmare. And one thing that's important is this panhandler angle. because it's been said that Goudo in carrying out his crimes, he often acted like a panhandler

or someone that was homeless. He'd wear different wigs and hats. Oh, he did all kinds of stuff. Yeah, he definitely disguises. Try to look different each time. But I do think a lot of the time he was trying to make himself look as a man in need. Yes. Like he was going to come up and ask for something.

police found Miranda's body a few hours later. She had been shot right between her eyes. You always hear about that, Gibbs, but in movies usually. Yeah. You don't hear about that in a lot of serial killer cases. This is brutal, man. Somebody being shot right between the eyes. Brutal.

The other thing about it was that her pants were unbuttoned. This was also something that occurred in quite a few of the murder scene. Female victim shot in the head and their pants were either unbuttoned and or pulled down slightly. Yeah. But something huge comes out of this murder. And it's that police discover the car wash had video surveillance and their suspect was captured on it. It's pretty big in a case like this where you have a city that's in.

total panic. I'm sure a lot of pressure to try to catch this guy. You have a task force, all that. Authorities release the footage to the media in the hopes that somebody would recognize this person. And what you see on the video is an African American male wearing what looks to me, Gibbs, like the type of hat that Gilligan wore on Gilligan's Island. Okay. Like a bucket hat. looking thing. There are dreadlocks coming out of the hat. And you can see this man. He grabs Miranda, forces her into the car and then drives off. So they have the video. From the video, they come up with a composite sketch. Now, at some point, the police had at least one false confession that we know of. It was a man by the name of James Dwayne Mullins. He's not confessing to everything. He was, he can

confess specifically to the murder of Georgia Thompson, the 19-year-old exotic dancer that happened back in September of 2005. Mullins told police he shot Thompson after she tried to rob him outside the strip club where she worked. The problem that police had with it was her body wasn't found anywhere near the strip club. and in their investigation, they didn't feel like she was killed and then transported to where she was found. They were pretty sure she was killed right where she was found. So they weren't believing Mullins when he tried to confess. And Gibbs, he pretty quickly changed his story after the police definitively linked that killing to the baseline killer. He said, all right, this stuff's just getting too.

real now. Yeah, I don't want to be the baseline killer. Yeah, I was okay with one, but I don't want all these other ones attached to it. For whatever reason, I want to take credit for this one. I still don't understand that, but I think we actually did get a voicemail the other day that talked about, from one of our really good listeners that talked about, you know, could it be that some of these people, they just don't want to be on the street anymore. They want three hots and a cot. Yeah. And they want some of that stability that they can't get them. themselves on the outside. It was interesting because I never really thought about it. You know, I always think of false confessions usually in the terms of, you know,

a Jesse Miss Kelly Jr. A Brendan Dassey. Right. If you consider those false confessions, but, you know, someone that is either maybe not that bright and has been led down a path by police to say something that really didn't happen. That's kind of the way I've always. looked at it, but that makes a lot of sense, actually, as to why maybe some people might confess to a crime that they didn't actually commit. That's true. Maybe they're just more comfortable being in that environment instead of being out with the general public.

Well, maybe, and maybe they've already been in prison. Maybe it's a Shawshank redemption thing. Yeah. Where they don't want to be on the outside, but they let them out. Who knows? There's a lot of reasons for why people do what they do. You're saying they could be a Brooks, huh? Could be a Brooks.

That's a good pull. too, by the way. Do you like that? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I know you thought about it for a little bit. It hurt. Could you see the pain?

There was smoke coming out of your left ear. So like I said, this Mullen's guy, he didn't want to be the baseline killer. And then I think later on, it came out that he wasn't even in Arizona or he told police he wasn't even in Arizona. And then pretty much after that, he's denied all involvement in the death of Georgia Thompson. So by the summer of 2006, this task force that we talked about Gibbs, they had compiled a list of more than 100 convicted sex offenders who lived in the general vicinity of where the baseline killer operated. That's a lot, man.

That's over 100. But you know what? It's probably the norm in today's world. Well, I'll tell you what, I get those emails because I'm signed up for one of those services that tells me when a registered sex offender is either moved in, moved out, I am always alarmed by the map that comes up. Yeah. That shows me how many registered sex offenders are in a certain radius.

It is somewhat alarming. But you're right. A hundred convicted sex offenders living in this small little area. They're getting a lot of tips, but they're not able to identify the person in the composite sketch. They're not able to figure out who the baseline killer is. Well, they're going to turn it up then. They're going to instead of just thinking about sexual offenders, they're going to start looking at any ex-con in that vicinity.

Sure. Sure. I mean, there's a couple of things. By this time, they had linked all of the murders to the same person, ballistically. That was really the link, right? It was the ballistics from the gun, the shell casings that were left. at the scene. There was a $100,000 reward out for information leading to the capture of the killer.

By August of 2006, based on what you just said, right, convicted offenders that were out on the street, not just sex offenders, but, you know, people that had been to prison, they sent a list of 75 potential baseline suspects to the state crime lab. They weren't all ex-cons, but 30 of them were, 30 of the 75, and those 30 all had their DNA profiles available in the state database. One of the convicts or ex-convicts, if you want to call him that, on that list was Mark Goodot. And we mentioned it, right?

As part of his release, part of his parole. He had to release some DNA behind. Yep. He was in the database for sure. And I mentioned it earlier, Gibbs, when we were talking about the attacks involving the two sisters, one who was pregnant, that eventually police were able to figure out the DNA collected from one of the sisters came from Goudot. And this led to him being arrested on September 6, 2006. It was his 42nd birthday. They arrested him as he got out of his truck at his house that he shared with his wife, Wendy.

he was charged with two counts each of aggravated assault, sexual assault, and kidnapping in connection with the 2005 incident involving these two sisters. At the time he was arrested, Goudot was working for a concrete company. He had been in construction pretty much most of his life when he wasn't in prison, but this company did jobs all over Phoenix, some of which were very, very close to where many of the baseline murders had occurred. So they got him, right? Yeah. He's charged.

He's going to go to trial. But not as the baseline killer for sexually assaulting, kidnapping these two sisters. But the police are looking at him. And I think the thought was Gibbs, he's going to go away. They're going to convict him. We can build our case. We being the prosecutors can build. our case for the other baseline crimes, the murders, before taking it to the grand jury

because we know that this guy is going to be locked up. Yeah, they got time on their side. Sure. And then they don't have the urgency because they know nobody else is going to be getting hurt because they know where he's at. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's absolutely right.

Now, police searched Gudo's house three different times and they found some items that linked him to crimes believed to be committed by the baseline killer. They found some jewelry that belonged to victims. And one of the searches detectives were focusing on white and black footwear. And this came out through earlier interviews with some of the assault and robbery victims about, you know, what their attacker was wearing. So they took some of his tennis shoes from his house. They did some forensic testing on it. And it revealed DNA from two of the murder victims was still on his sneakers. And it was said that it was pretty apparent to the authorities that he had gone through

some significant efforts to try to clean these sneakers up. Maybe using bleach. Who knows what. Yeah. But he definitely tried. But he didn't do enough. Yeah. They were still able to find.

some DNA, particularly on a pair of some white Nike sneakers. Yeah, I think they found some good DNA points on what they call the swish, the logo. Or the swoosh. Or the swoosh. You call it a swish. Swish. I call it a swoosh. Depends what side of Ohio you live on.

You and I live on the same side of Ohio. I live a little further to the other side. You live north of me, but, no, but you're right. They found. evidence of DNA that belonged to George Chow, the lone male victim of the baseline killer, and it was in the

kind of the emblem area, the Nike swoosh area. So they also found some other DNA on the sneaker, which belonged to Nicole Givens, and she was murdered in late March 2006. A black ski mask was found in the bottom of the hamper. It was also tested, and the testing revealed some

microscopic blood and fight. locations? Because remember, he's, he'd like to shoot him in the head, close range, so that I say splatter, you'll probably say spatter. No, I'll go with you. Most people say correct us and say spatter, but I find any, I find either term acceptable. There you go. But either way, that spatter, splatter came back on his mask. And again, it would be identified as Nichols. Well, let's talk about that for a minute. If you're going to fire a gun into somebody's head at what is essentially point blank range, it's almost impossible that you're not going to get some of that on you. And one of the things that people always say, especially like in the forensic community, is people just don't realize

where that blood lands and how hard it is to really get it all off of you. Yeah. I don't know how else to better put that. So kind of related as far as we, how you think you can clean something up fairly easy. So back in my UPS days, right, I got done with my route and I went to a little restaurant where you set at the bar and they served as your food, it's like an empire restaurant or something like that. Yeah, and let me finish this. I have no idea with this story.

You ate something you shouldn't have. You got back in the truck and you shat yourself. No. No, I'm not even close. Not even close. Shoot. That would be dangerous too. Yeah, that would be a good story.

That would have been a good story. No, so I got some French fries and I grabbed the ketchup bottle and I start to shake it, not realizing the cap was not screwed on. The cap flies off. The ketchup flies out of the bottle. Lends on the guy next to me. It has a suit on. I thought you were going to say it got on your brown, tidy UPS shorts.

End up getting more places than we thought. You know, I thought, well, sorry, I'll pay for your dry cleaning. Sure. I knew the guy from being in there so often. Initially after the, after he got upset, wore off, right, it was all good. But I remember driving back in my truck again, and I was like, fine, and catch up everywhere. You think he got it all. You didn't.

Same thing with blood. I mean, I've heard of people having it inside their ears. Yeah. And they had no idea. That was sitting there. And somebody sees it. They swab it. I mean, obviously you'd have to do that pretty quickly.

Yeah. But, man, the other story would have been better. For you. Because you're talking about things that were hard to clean up. That's where I thought you were going. You wonder how long I'd drive before I clean myself up? Well, those packages, they got to get delivered. Hey, nor rain, nor sleet, nor snow, nor sharting yourself.

I don't think that's how it goes. Oh. nor. Why, you got to change my vocabulary, man. I'm not trying to change your vocabulary. It's a quote. It's an actual... Well, this is UPS, not the United States parcel.

Right. But you're using the one from the post office. I stealing it from them. I just, I can't remember exactly how it goes. Yeah. It could be nor. I thought it was like neither. Neither.

Neither. Probably is. I just try. Maybe it's neither, neither, neither, neither, and then nor at the end. Might be. Neither rain. Or maybe it's neither and then nor, nor, nor, nor.

Yeah. I don't know. Somebody tell us. We've got a postal worker out there working for us. We're off track. I think the important thing, Gibbs, is that they are finding DNA connections between the murder victims and Mark Gudeau. Yeah, but he's not happy about it because he's saying, hey, my DNA, you guys are trying to frame me. This is a setup.

If anything, you should be clearing me of these murders because it's not my DNA. Yeah, he talked a lot about the police framing him, planting evidence, has continued to claim all long. There's nothing linking him to the crime scenes. But what else are you going to say? You're not going to raise your hand and say, yeah. No, not if you're smart. Yeah. Deny, deny, deny, right? But during one of the searches, and I mentioned there was three, and this happened during the last one, police discovered a pair of brown leather shoes. And inside the shoes, they found a small sandwich bag that contained some items, some of which was jewelry. But the biggest item was a 10-carat gold ring that contained a personalized description that belonged to Tina Washington.

Washington had bought the ring from Walmart a few months before she died. And this was a special order. She just didn't go in and, you know, buy this. from inside the case because she had it engraved with the names of her three grown sons. Yeah, very important to her. So when you talk about it being personalized, not that hard to tell that this was Tina Washington's ring. Nobody else in the Phoenix metro area is going to have this 10-carat gold ring with the three names of her sons in it.

Yeah, I mean, so here's the ring that belongs to the murder. victim that was shot, but because they don't have the murder weapon. I mean, this is probably the best thing that they can get besides the DNA they have. I mean, this is connecting him, putting him at the scene of the crime. And it's important because they need all the ammunition they can get, right? All the links. But I will say there is some controversy surrounding the searches of Goudo's house. I think mainly centered around the fact that they didn't find the ring until this third and last search. You know what I think he's very vocal about it.

His defense attorney is vocal about it. His wife's a vocal about it. Oh, yeah, everybody. Now, when I looked at the search warrants, I thought they were very specific. You know, the first focused mainly on tennis shoes. That's what they were looking for. It did list some other items.

But the second one really focused on computer and electronic equipment. But it's that third one. It's specifically listed. Washington's 10-carat gold ring, which police knew by that point must have been taken when she was killed. Her family came forward, said, hey, we can't find this ring. She would have been wearing it. But I also think that's why some people have said that they think maybe the police planted it. They were looking for it specifically.

And like you said, Mark has said this. His wife has said this. But I think, I'm sure there are other people online that have theorized this as well. So they put all this evidence together against Mark Goudo. They charged him with 74 more counts. He's already facing what, Gibbs? What did I say? 19.

19, yeah. For just the attack on the two sisters. Now they've charged him with 74 more. Nine of those are murder. So what happened was he essentially had two different cases. and they were going to be tried separately. The first case involving the attack on the sisters happened in 2007. It was on September 7th, Goudo was convicted of all 19 charges relating to that attack.

And the sisters testified during the trial. And they said that Mark Gudo suddenly approached him. He had a gun. He forced them into some nearby bushes, made them remove them. their clothing. They said that he sexually assaulted the younger sister as he pointed his gun at the other sister's pregnant belly. We talked about that. But the source of the DNA, that was the big thing at this first trial. The prosecution said essentially what we said when we talked about the attack, right? He made the girls spit into his hands, mixed it with dirt, rubbed it on the sister's

breast. It's the way that they were able to pull out just his DNA from that mixture. Right. That the defense had a real issue with. You know, they said it was experimental science. Sure, unless it would have exonerated. Yeah. And then it's the best thing ever. Yeah. The other issue they had with it is they said the state in doing their testing, they used up all the swap. There was no evidence left for the defense to test. They did have an issue with that. One important point to make, nothing related to the baseline killer was ever mentioned during this first trial. They didn't want to prejudice the jury because this trial was just about the sexual assault, the kidnapping of these two sisters.

He was sentenced on December 14th, 2007. to 438 years in prison, Gibbs, for the sexual assault charges. It's a long haul, man. That's a big number. But what I read about it was that the reason why it was so many years. Because you and I have covered a lot of cases where we say, man, I can't believe that person only got X. Yeah. I was really surprised, like you were, you know, researching this that there was that many years.

Yeah, and the way that I saw it explained was that he tried many times in many different ways to sexually assault these women. And so somehow they were able to differentiate each time. And he was given time for each one somehow. Yes. I know I'm probably not making great sense. No, I can what you're saying. That's how they got to this 438 number.

but you look at it and you say obviously it was a horrific crime the sexual assault of two women but when have you ever seen that result in 438 years this is one case where the time actually justifies the crime as best as it can you know what I mean am I saying that wrong it's because it would be the crime justifies the time yeah but I got what you're saying yeah what I'm saying is that at least it's taken very seriously yeah he's taking very seriously yeah He didn't get off with the slap on the wrist. Yes. That's the end of 2007.

Gudo's going away for a long time. But he's going to face another trial, right? The trial for the rest of the baseline killer crimes. But before that happens, in June 2009, there's a leaked police report that comes out. And it talks about the fact that police had another suspect in one of the murders. and it was the lunch chart murders of Vargas and Roman in February of 2006. This was an African-American male by the name of Terry Wayne Smith. Apparently Gibbs, he matched the description of the baseline killer.

He also lived very close to where some of the baseline killer crime scenes were. And apparently Smith had a long violent history of crime in both California and Arizona, aggravated assault, armed robbery. He was a suspect at one point in two homicide cases. Doesn't sound like he was a great guy. And he served prison time and was released not that long before the baseline killer attacks began. So I think what police thought was that maybe he was an accomplice. Maybe he was involved in in some way, shape, or form. But I don't know how far they took it. Obviously, they were focused on Mark Goodot and rightfully so based on the evidence they have. And he was also arrested just days after Goudot was arrested.

Now, it was on charges unrelated to the baseline killings. But why are we talking about this, Gibbs? Why are we talking about Terry Wayne Smith? It's because people think it's possible that he is actually the baseline killer. People have made those allegations. And I think the police themselves put together quite a bit of information on Terry Wayne Smith, even going as far as suggesting that, like we said, he could have been involved in the baseline killings.

But they've also come out and said he was properly questioned and he was dismissed as a suspect. I think they also said that they figured out that he was in jail at the time of one of the murders. So that makes it hard to be the sole killer in the baseline. The problem is he overlaps Godot very much so, right? He's released from prison before the murder start. Goodo is released from prison before the murder start. Obviously, there are no more baseline killings after the two are arrested. So I think that's why you have people saying, well, it could be him. Sure. The problem is, as far as I know they don't have any DNA from the victims that match Terry Wayne Smith.

And I think, well, I know they have his DNA. Right. He was in prison quite a number of times. Now, while he was in prison, Goudot did an interview with the BBC. So let's hear a little bit of that and we'll talk about. Let's do it. 100% innocent and I've been framed by the Phoenix Police Department task force. They needed someone.

They needed someone. I was a perfect person living in the neighborhood. Oh, he's black. Oh, he's an ex-con. We use him. Ain't nobody gonna believe him because he's ex-con. I felt like I'm underwater. I can see people standing there looking at me,

but not throwing me a life jacket. They couldn't place a gun in my hand. They couldn't place no damn bullets or whatever in my hand. I had anything I wanted. House, two new cars, beautiful wife. They all I'm gonna be out there raping and robbing people for $30, $40 for it. for it. So we're going to hear from Goudot again, but there in that interview, you know,

basically what we said. He's denied his involvement in the baseline killings and essentially said, I had a great life. Why did I need to go out and do this, this and this? Nice house, two new cars, beautiful life. We know of quite a few serial killers that had a pretty good life. Yeah. But they still chose to go out and commit sexual assaults, commit murder. I don't think that is a good defense for the, I didn't do it. Right. You can think of somebody like Herb Baummeister. Yeah.

Had all kinds of money. Maybe just explain why that's not your DNA that was found in places. And that's kind of, well, according to him, right? If you believe him, he's saying that's all planet. Yeah. That's his way of explaining it. Gudo's second trial for the baseline killings. It didn't start until 2011.

Four years after his first trial, five years after he was arrested, it was a long trial. There was, I think, around 70 days of actual testimony. It lasted for, you know, many, many months. The prosecutor, Suzanne Cohen, she opened up the trial with a Bible verse. And it said, Beware of the predator who comes to you dressed in sheep's clothing, but inside is a ravenous wolf. with an appetite to rape. You shall know him by his deeds. Powerful. It is powerful.

It's also going to be the sheep's clothing is going to be a big thing in this trial. A lot of people are going to talk about it. Goudot himself is going to say multiple times. I'm not a wolf in sheep's clothing. The prosecution had a forensic specialist who told the jury that Gudo was undoubtedly the source of the male DNA found on the left breast of one of the victims. Yeah, I mean, they were able to say that with it being 360 trillion times more likely that the DNA collected from the crime scene came from Godot rather than any other unrelated black

male. I mean, that's huge. I mean, it's not one billion. It's not 500 billion. That's trillion. 360 trillion. That's, yeah. I mean, it's just, come on.

The two sisters test. to fight again at this second trial, as did a lot of the victim's relatives, not going to go too much into the trial Gibbs. I don't want to run too long on this episode. Yeah, well, you're right, because there was a lot to it, a lot of evidence. The defense is going to constantly challenge the DNA saying it was mishandled, it wasn't collected right, this and that. They're going to, that's the one thing they hammer on. Yeah, I mean, there was a lot of DNA evidence, right, introduced. And you're correct. The defense is saying essentially, okay, you have this evidence, but you can't trust it

because the work was sloppy. That's all they could do was tried to dispute the DNA testimony, you know, from the prosecution witnesses. But the prosecution had a survivor, a witness that testified in the trial. And that's usually pretty powerful. When you have a victim, they already have. had the two sisters, right? They had another witness that survived an attack by Goudo testify against him. This was a 31-year-old woman who described to the jury how in May of 2006,

Gudo Carjactor near baseline. He forced her at gunpoint to drive to a residential area. He made her take off her clothes while they were inside of her voice. Volkswagen Beetle. And Gibbs, she said that he made her touch herself while he watched. Yeah, and this scared her because she had a feeling he was going to rape her zone and she was worried that she might die too. Well, he told her as much, right? If she didn't perform the sexual acts that he wanted her to on him, he would kill her.

Yeah. This is what she testified to. And she says, but I said, you know what, I'm not going to do it. So go ahead and kill me. Yeah. Specifically, oral sex. She said, no, you're going to have to kill me because I'm not doing it. But he kept on threatening her. Look, I'm going to blow your brains out. Your parents are going to read about you having your brains blown out tomorrow's paper if you don't give me oral sex. But she still refused. And at one point, he pulled the trigger. But the gun didn't go off. It closed. So that was her opportunity. She heard the gun misfire. So she jumps out of the vehicle and starts running away. And she found the closest house trying to get help. And you know this was extremely powerful testimony to the jury. You know it Gibbs.

Well, here's the guy that said, I'm not the wolf and sheep's clothing. But guess what? She just confirmed. No, you are. You put a gun to me, made me drive you somewhere, made me take my clothes off, made me do things. that I didn't want to do to myself and then wanted me to do things to you. Thank goodness your gun didn't fire and I was able to escape. And in the process, had to run naked down the street to the closest house she could find. And it was on October 31st, 2011, the jury returned guilty verdicts on most of the charges, not all the charges. They did find Goudo guilty on all the murder charges and most of the others. I think they found him not guilty.

on one count of armed robbery, one count of kidnapping, some counts of attempted armed robbery. In the grand scheme of things, it was... They were going for the big one. Yeah. Yeah. It was not that big a deal. There was one charge, I think, that they weren't able to reach a verdict on. So he's found guilty.

Prior to sentencing, Goudo addressed the jury. As the judge, they didn't introduce myself to you guys. We didn't know exactly who you've been watching for the last. five months. The only reason I'm standing here for you today is because of my past. I'm not proud of my past. Yesterday you heard the word choice quite a few times. We do have choices. I made the choice in 1990 but then I created that choice. I went to prison to change my entire life. People can't change. I changed. I changed. I I became a man, got married,

I got the right support group around me because I knew what it took in life. Got out of prison, I never looked back, never accused nobody, never blamed anybody. We got a job, I went to work every day. As you all know, we can't talk about crimes that I had, but you guys found me guilty of. But I could look at each and every one of you in your eyes today.

I'll tell you, Mark a doe, there's no wolf in sheep clothing. I told you it was used quite a bit, right? He's using the prosecutor's own words to say, nope, I'm not that. Maybe instead of saying he's no wolf in sheep's clothing, maybe he's just say, I'm just a wolf. I don't have the clothing on. He's just a wolf. A wolf.

That's right. Sorry. You making fun of my way I say this. No. I'm not making fun of it. No. If you want to call it a wolf, call it a wolf. A lot of people do.

Yeah. That's not one of yours that I have a huge issue with. No, there's much better ones. There are. On November 30th, 2011, a Phoenix jury sentenced Goudot to death on the murder charges related to the baseline killings, but Goudot didn't go quietly. In his first trial, he was really calm and low-key. even though he was convicted.

In the beginning of this trial, pretty calm. Once he found out that he was convicted of nine murders, he wasn't quite as quiet, and especially after they sentenced him to death. For 10 months, you acted as a terrorist in our community. I'm Anderson, man. I do not commit these crimes. I had nothing to do with these crimes.

I'm sorry, Yon. I'm very angry here. My goal is not to make a patient. parody of today, but simply to impose the sentence you deserve for each of your sneak attacks on folks. He wasn't too bad there, but I actually think he got a little more out of hand than what I was able to gather on tape. Now, Godot's wife, Wendy Carr, we haven't talked to her about her a whole lot. We did say that she's insisted he was innocent.

And just like Mark, she has said pretty much from the beginning that Phoenix police planted all the evidence to frame her husband. I don't understand how the absence of evidence is evidence. Listen, these are people that made a rush to charge. I think they thought maybe Mark was the guy. And, you know, they repeatedly come to her house. Supposedly, they've missed it all this time. And according to the police, it was in a baggie,

in a heel of the shoe, with the shoe protruding off the shelf. So obviously, you know, I don't know how they think that could be believable. But even if you exclude that. The ring, obviously, is what she's talking about. Right. If you even if you just exclude that,

I mean, he was already found guilty of what he did to the two sisters. Correct. So, you know, he's not this good guy at all, right? I mean, he did terrible things to those two sisters. They have other DNA that, found on the white gym shoes and on the ski mask. Well, I think the only way that he's not the baseline killer is if every bit of DNA evidence related to him being the baseline killer.

Right. Right. Not the attack on the two girls. Right. But everything that comes after that was planted by police. That's the only way that he's not involved in these murders. in sexual assault. That's tough.

I think it's tough for anyone to believe that police would go to that extent. They're going to come take your Nikes, plant two people's DNA on it. Do I have to refer you to making a murderer and how many people think that the police planted every bit of evidence in that case? I just think it's a lot to do. It is. It is. I mean, I don't know. Not saying that it's impossible?

Sure. I just think it's a lot to try. to walk away with saying, yeah, they plant the stuff on the shoes. They plant the stuff on the ski mask. They plant the ring up in the closet in the one shoe. They plan at this. They plan at that. It's just a lot. Yeah. But could it be done? Probably. Anything can be done. Sure. Yeah. Several families of the victims have filed wrongful death suits against not only Goudot, but his wife against the city of Phoenix. Well, I think they, some of them did that because they're saying, look, if you, if you would have tested the DNA sooner than later, maybe my loved one would still be alive today.

But you would have arrested Mark Goudot before he got to the point in his killings where he was able to kill my loved one. I think is the argument there. In June 2016, a unanimous decision by the Arizona Supreme Court rejected Gudo's appeal. and he remains on death row. Unless some big bombshell comes out, Gibbs, that we're not aware of. Yeah. I think he'll be there until he's executed. Well, he's going to be there for life anyway at one point.

So, and knowing how the system works, he'd probably be there for quite a long time. That is true. Yeah. Because I read an article today about a man, I forget what state he's in, but he's seven years old. And he's seven years old? 70. Sorry, did not come out right? Yeah.

He was 70 years old. He was just executed. Took him 29 years. Yeah. To execute him. I think it's a good chance Godot will die of natural causes before they complete his sentence of death. They could. But if he's in prison for 29 years, he too would be about 70, 71 years old.

Yeah. Yeah. So. But that's it. That is the case of Mark Gudeau, the baseline killer. I'll say this, Gibbs. It's a strange case. Assuming Mark Goudot is the baseline killer as all of the DNA evidence and things point towards.

And obviously the jury who heard all the testimony said, you know, that he was the baseline killer. He was one mean son of a bitch. Yeah. I mean, gruesome. It's a lot of carnage, man. With a very high victim count. We got voicemails, Gibbs. You want to hear those?

Yeah, let's do voicemails. Hi, guys. This is Brian from Little Rock, Arkansas. I had a podcast a couple months ago. And I've absolutely loved listening to it. I've been vinging it every day at work, non-stop. I would love it if I could hear y'all's thoughts on Curtis of Catherine Jones. It's a really unique story.

And they've just been released in prison. and it's a sad, sad story, no matter how you look at it. I love hearing from y'all and keep your own time taken. All right, Brian, we appreciate that. Yeah. That actually gives a case that I'm not very familiar with, so we're going to have to look that up. Check it out. Yep.

Thank you for that. Hi, Mike Squared. This is Ronell from Sydney, Australia. You sent me and my sister's an excellent. parcel of goodies. So thank you. I'm about to send one to you too. So in Australia, we don't pronounce the letter R. We say R. So Razor becomes razor. Murder. Murder becomes murder. We shorten names here too. So Givie and Ferg would fit right in. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.

Oh, we love Rono. Absolutely. And in a bit of good timing, she probably left that voicemail three weeks ago, sent the package. It probably took three weeks to get here. Yeah. We just got the package. Oh, we did. Yeah.

So in the mailbag, I'll just go ahead and say it now right after her voicemail, she sent us this, I mean, just a huge package, Gibbs of stuff from Australia. she just called it everything Aussie. Aussie? Aussie. And she made sure that I knew it was pronounced Aussie. Ozzy. And not Aussie. So Aussie.

It's definitely Aussie. But we're talking about pens, magnets, notepads. Kangaroo? Keychains. Kangaroo? Well, she didn't send a full kangaroo. A baby kangaroo? Not a baby kangaroo.

No. Just all kinds of trinkets and cool stuff. From Australia. No qualabare? No qualabar. I think those are hard to get out of the country. Probably would survive, would they? It's a long trip.

So thank you very much for that. That's awesome. Amazing. Hey, Mike and Gibby. This is Christy from Florida. I don't know why I just left my last name. But I just wanted to call and say how much I love you guys. You guys are awesome.

You've got me through a million day. And sometimes it can get a little boring. So thank you for that. And also, I just wanted to say that that discussion about the eyeballs was just too much, but funny. So love you guys. Keep doing it and keep your own time taken. Hey, so she's an accountant. Yeah.

She's got numbers in common with me. Is she saying that accounting can be boring? Wow. I never heard that. Shire. I'm staring at numbers and spreadsheets all day. I know you love it, Gibbs. You're not technically an accountant, but you do a lot of work.

I like my TPS reports. Yeah, your TPS reports are always laid. Have I mean to talk to you about that? Yeah. So obviously she's talking about the pop-in sisters. Yeah. And the gouging of the eyeballs. I mean, that's pretty brutal.

I mean, think about it. It was brutal. And you kept talking about it. Eyeballs. And going very into, going very deep into the graphic details of how far around and back you would have to get to pop it out. Pop it out. Man, good times. Hey, guys.

This is your neighbor, Emily Moronis. in good old Huber Heights, Ohio. I just want to call and tell you how much I enjoy your podcast. I listen to it when I'm at work. It kind of helps me not think about the freezing cold or the super sticky hot weather we get here in Ohio because I work on a dock, on a forklift all day. So it just kind of gets me through and helps me out.

And then I had a suggestion, because in all the podcasts that I listened to, no one has covered this. And you guys are my favorite. I think you do a great job. And that is the Green River Killer. He's the one that kind of got me into True crime back in the day

after watching a lifetime movie on him. And just sheer numbers alone, you know, there's a lot there. So I think that'd be an excellent one for you guys to cover. So hopefully, I'll see you guys at CrimeCon stay safe and keep your own time ticket now we love him

Emily was actually the one that she's one that sent the custom tumblers Oh yeah Right from Huber Heights though huh Yeah I didn't realize she was from Hsuer Hites I'm shopping at Myers and Huber Heights I'm eating at Jerome's Italian kitchen Never seen you where you at

You probably have and you don't know All right So I already talked about one thing we got in the bell bag. Our friend Lottie also sent us something. She sent us a huge tin of real Danish butter cookies. Ooh. Which my daughters have eaten quite a few of them.

Oh. So, but she also sent you a bobblehead. And I don't even know if bobblehead is the right way to define this thing. It's like a spring loaded person. It's like a big coil with a huge round head on it. So it does jump up and down. It does bobble, but it's a big coil. It's pretty cool. It's hard to describe. It is hard to describe. I did a terrible job at it, but we love it. She also sent me some Charlie chips from Copenhagen. Copenhagen. So that's what, but now she called the bobbleheads. I want to say she called it hop shittle. You hop shittle you or something like that. I don't. What she's trying to say?

I don't read such a hop shittle. Danish very well or Dutch. You like that though. You can be like, you're such a hop-shittle. Yeah. More, you're going to be like hop-shittal. I'm sure it wasn't anything like that, but I'm going, my best guess is hop-shittle. Hop-shito. So you have a hop-shittle. I got a little hop-shittle right here.

And you can put that on your desk at work or you can put that in your kitchen. It's a hop-shuttle. It does. Yeah. I mean, where wouldn't you want to have a hop-shuttle? It's important to have a hop-shuttle. You always have a hop-shittle. That's true.

Yeah. All right. Let's get the hop-shutle out of here. Yeah. Yeah. Let's move this hop shittle forward. All right. That is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So from Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.

Oh, man, Gibbs. I forgot to respond to Emily's voicemail. Oh. I got so... Oh, about the Green River. Yeah. Yeah. You know, the Green River is just, the killer is fascinating to me.

But, and this might be the reason why a lot of people don't want to cover it. it's so massive. Yeah. I don't know how you could do it justice in two, three, four. I mean, episodes. Look, we just did four on West Memphis. West Memphis. I don't know how many it would take.

I mean, and Ed was three, right? Yeah. So if you were going to go through and literally go into detail about all the murders, if we did what we did on this episode. Yeah. But I don't know that that would be doing that case justice. It's a pretty popular. It's very famous.

Yeah, yeah. So, gosh, I feel bad. And we've talked about it before. We have. We talked about it. It's on the list. I'm fascinated by the case. Yeah.

So, we'll see. We're knocking out sometime this year. Yeah. Let's hope so. Yeah. We'll see. All right. I like your hop shittle, man.

It's a, it's a beautiful hop shittle. It's one of the best hop shittles I've ever seen. You're jealous of my hop shittle. And I've seen a bunch. Don't touch my hop shittle. I'll take that hop shittle right away from you. You don't touch another man's hop shittle. Never.

Never. Oh shit, Gibbs. I left the recording on. Oh, why'd you do that for? Yeah, that's all right. We'll leave it on. People like it when we do that. All right, let it play.

All right.