True Crime All The Time - The Chowchilla Kidnapping

Episode Date: July 18, 2022

On July 15th, 1976, a school bus driven by 55-year-old Frank Edward Ray, for Dairyland Elementary, in the school district of Chowchilla, California, was hijacked by three armed men. Ed Ray was driving 26 children, ranging in age from 5 to 14, home from a summer class trip to the Chowchilla Fairgrounds swimming pool.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the Chowchilla Kidnapping case. 24-year-old Fred Woods and brothers 22-year-old Richard and 24-year-old James Schoenfeld were the kidnappers. They all came from wealthy families, but all had run into money difficulties. Their plan was to abduct a bus full of kids and ransom them for five million dollars. But, their plan went awry when Ed and the kids were able to escape from a makeshift bunker.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 292 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. How are you? Hey man, I'm doing well. How about yourself? I'm doing very, very well. Good. You and I are taping a bunch kind of back to back as I get ready to go to my daughter's national dance competition.

Fun every year. Of course. Something we go to. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had cheesy poof. What's up? Poof. Catherine Gonzalez. Hey, Gonzalez. Corey 33Y. What's up? 33Y. Brittany Watkins. Hey, Brittany. Suzanne. Appreciate that, Suzanne.

Tim McKinney. Elizabeth Gibson. What's up, Elizabeth? Matthew Keller. Hey, Matthew. J.J. Scott. What's going on, Scott? Kenny Anderson. Appreciate that, Kenny. Michelle Chung. Hey, Michelle. Nicole. Nicole. Nicole. Nicole. Nicole. Robert Martin. What's up, Martin? Jody Thompson. Hey, Jody. Wendy Britt. Hi, Wendy. Shelly Pfeiffer. Thank you, Shelly. Abby Walker. Well, how you doing, Abby?

Taylor Villanueva. Belovedo. Nope. I said it really quick, and that's how I missed that up, you know. Linda. Hey, Linda. Kimberly Benson. What's up, Benson?

Clarissa Hitchcock. Hey, Clarissa. And last been not least, Taylor Piper. Hey, Piper. And then if we go back into the Vault Gibbs, this week, we selected Leanne Walls. Hey, Leanne. So we appreciate all the, the Patreon, on new and continued.

We also had a couple of great PayPal donations from Bronte Ellard. Hey, Bronte. And Andrea, I appreciate that. So thanks to you as well. And Gibbs, we had what is probably the biggest PayPal donation we've ever had from a husband who wanted to wish, happy birthday to his wife, Christine Dunphy from New Zealand. So happy birthday, Christine. And this guy's in the running for husband of the year.

year. So Gibbs, right now we have an episode out on true crime all the time unsolved where we're talking about the Maya Zawa family slings headed to Tokyo, Japan, a very interesting episode. You know, we're talking about a family of four who was slaughtered in their home. Middle of the night. Tons of evidence left by the killer. Yeah, the killer definitely had no issues leaving his personal DNA behind. Yeah, let's put it that way. So, Great episode. Make sure you check that out. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the time? Yeah, I'm ready. We are headed to California to discuss the Chal Chila kidnapping. And this is a very different kind of episode for us. There are no murders,

no sex crimes, but it is definitely fascinating true crime. Three men kidnapped a school bus full of children and tried to ransom them for money. But this is a very important. But this is a lot of, you know, also a hero story. You know, these children were heroic, and definitely so was the school bus driver, a man named Ed Ray. But I think we should start off by hearing a song about Ed by Kent Morrill and the Rhythm Mets called The Ballad of Chalchilla Ray. Ray kept this cool that day, did everything that they would say. He knew one wrong move and they'd shoot away. And one dead child was too much to pay. So catchy little tune from the 1970s, probably not something you're going to listen to a lot in your car as you're traveling or, you know, anything like that.

But the reason why I wanted to play it was because they're talking about this bus driver, how heroic he was. I mean, how many, you know, times do we get to do an episode where somebody has a song written about them in a good. way. Yes. There have been some songs written for serial killers, which is a little odd, but this is not that. So according to the LA Times, on July 15th, 1976, a school bus driven by 55-year-old Frank Edward Ed Ray for Daryland Elementary in the school district of Chowell, California, was hijacked by three-armed men. Ed Ray was driving 26 children, ranging in ages from five to 14 back from a summer class trip to the Chalchilla Fairgrounds swimming pool. And it was said that Ed was a favorite of the children.

You know, some of the kids that he was transporting that day were grandkids of former classmates of his. You know, this is a guy who grew up in Chalchilla. He had lived there his entire life. He also attended Dairyland Elementary. So the kids were very fond of Ed. And I'm sure all of us can think back to those times, riding the bus to school. Some of those memories are probably really good. And maybe they're good because of a great bus driver.

My youngest loved her bus driver. She would come into the house and talk about her bus driver every single day when she got home from school. She said this. She did that. She's so great. Now, some of the men. memories people might have might not be so good. You know, if you had a bully on your bus or something like that, you know, the bus is kind of a strange environment. It really is. You know, if you do have a

bully or if there is a bully, you don't have a lot of options to get away from that person. He's got to wait to that next bus stop. And that can sometimes be problematic if your bully gets off at that bus stop. You know, I, I can remember back in the day there was some, um, some, an older kid that rode my bus. And basically the whole goal every day was to get off before this kid did. Yeah. Because he was going to chase one of the kids that got off of that bus stop. Sure.

And you didn't want to be the last and you sure didn't want to be the slowest. I've been in a few fights getting off the bus. Yeah. I'm sure a lot of people have, especially years and years ago. It was July 15th, 1976. And really the entire nation was still selling. celebrating the country's bicentennial. Now, I wasn't old enough to remember it, but all of the papers talked about how it was really a month-long celebration.

I know you were probably celebrating with your high school girlfriend in the back of your dad's Vega or something like that. Maybe or because I was 10, but I was in high school. So, you know. You still could have been doing that. So I mentioned it. Ed drove the kids to swim. I'm sure they had a great time. It was really on the way back when the trouble began.

The bus was traveling along a road in Madeira County when a white van pulled in front of it and stopped. That's when three men wearing panty hose on their head got out of the van. They were armed with guns with at least one carrying a sawed-off shotgun. The three men were 24-year-old Frederick Woods and brothers, 22-year-old Richard and 24-year-old Richard and 24-year-old. year old James show infill. Ed Ray would later tell papers that they said to him, shut up and get in the back of the bus. So we're definitely going to be talking about some nightmarish scenarios. Yeah. This is one of them. Three armed men, you're the bus driver. You're in charge of the safety of all of these kids that are on the bus. I'm sure those kids were scared.

Yeah, I'm sure they were. They're going to be. They're going to be. You're going to. You're be scared for, you know, the entirety of this ordeal as it plays out. The kidnappers loaded the kids and Ed into two vans. So they had the white one, right? That's the one that they used to stop the bus. Then they had another green van that was waiting at a specific location. One of the kidnappers drove the school bus and hit it with some brush, some bamboo. And they had made some modifications to these vans.

You know, I read a lot of different things, you know, blacked out the windows, maybe even tried to soundproof them. Yeah. So this was something planned. This was not spur of the moment. We'll get into it down the road. But I think the blacking out of the windows, they didn't want anybody to be able to see inside the van. I also don't think they wanted anyone inside the van to be able to see out because the kidnappers then drove the kids. 19 girls and seven boys, along with Ed, around in these vans for over 11 hours.

Long time to be in a van. Any vehicle. Yeah, we'll find out. There's, there's no stops. There's no, uh, you know, this was a, a very long ride. Eventually the vans reached a rock quarry in Livermore, California. Now, Livermore is northwest of Chalchilla. It's very close to San Francisco. But, it's only about 90 to 100 miles in distance. So, I mean, just based off that, you know the vans didn't make a direct route. They had to have been either, you know, taking back roads or really more likely going out of their way so that the individuals inside the van wouldn't know where they were, wouldn't have any clue. Which is, but that's crazy, right? I mean, they're five to 15 years.

old. Except for Ed. But why go through all that just to throw them off? Well, I don't know. I really don't know that it has ever come out what they did, you know, during these 11 hours. I can only assume that they were trying to throw, you know, somebody off. I don't know. It was reported by many outlets that the vans were extremely hot. No food or water was given. I mentioned it. The vans didn't make any stops. there was no bathroom breaks. And you've got, you know, a number of small kids.

There were accidents. Many of them vomited. So, you know, you can imagine what the inside of these vans was like after just a few hours. I'd probably do that today. If I was on the back of a van that long and whiny roads and stuff.

Yeah, I mean, you know, some people get cars sick, but you're also dealing with kids who are scared out of their minds. And the heat, the heat, causes a lot of people to, you know, get sick. And that's on top of the fear, right?

Them thinking about, okay, what are these people going to do to us? Once at the rock quarry, the kidnappers began taking their captives out of the vans one by one. The LA Times reported that each child was forced to give the kidnappers their name, age, and one piece of clothing. then they were led down a ladder about 12 feet into the earth. So eventually the kids in it were all down there. They found themselves in some type of container moving truck. I've seen it listed as a bunch of different things. Most often I saw it described as a moving truck.

It was said to have been somewhere around like eight by 16 feet. really not that big for all those kids to be sitting in. No, it's 27 people total, right? One adult, 26 kids. CBS News reported that inside the truck were mattresses, jugs of water, and a table with boxes of cereal, some potato chips, peanut butter, and bread. But it wasn't a lot of food for that many people. The kidnappers had cut holes in the wheel wells to serve as toilets.

It was extremely dark down there. But it was later said that people could hear fans somewhere in the darkness. I think they were meant to provide some type of ventilation. Yeah. And this is extremely important because, you know, it's really the level of ventilation, the heat inside the truck, the air quality that would later be crucial at trial. So you're down in this dark container, no privacy. If you have to use a bathroom, you're going through a wheel well.

Well, they left some food down there, but I just can't imagine how those kids felt. Well, and to your point, Gibbs, I think we need to take a step back here, just to consider, you know, how nightmarish this was for those who had been abducted. I already mentioned it, but, you know, the kids for sure were scared to death. There were siblings. And I think I read where six kids from one family was down there. Poor parents of all the families, but that family. The van ride was brutal for sure. And now they've been in tuned into this moving truck or whatever it is.

But then there's it. By all accounts, you know, throughout this entire ordeal, he tried his best to keep the kids calm. He tried to get them to sing songs to take their minds off of what was going on. But, you know, he had to be worried to. I mentioned, you know, that response. He was responsible for these kids. And I'm sure he felt that instinct that, okay, I'm going to do everything within my power to protect these kids. Yeah, I just can't imagine the feeling of being in town there when the kidnappers finally cover that hole and leave and you're all abandoned. Yeah. I mean, obviously, at some point, they cover the hole once they got, you know, everybody down there.

it was reported later that, you know, the kids were crying hysterically, which you can imagine that they would have been. For sure. Many of them crying out for their parents. It's really heartbreaking to think about. And then there's the parents who very quickly realized that something was wrong when their kids didn't come back when they were scheduled to. So, you know, that's a mass panic. Oh, you got all these parents wanting to know where their kids are at.

Yeah. And they're flooding into. you know, local law enforcement, to sheriff's office saying, hey, something's wrong. And I think, you know, the sheriff's office did realize it very quickly. They sprang into action. They began searching and they pretty quickly called in the FBI. And all the reporting talked about, you know, the fact that, you know, the community really came together. There were a lot of people who joined in to the search for these kids besides the authority. And some of them were pilots. You're going to need some pilots to try to find that school bus. I saw various accounts where

they actually did reach out to anybody that they knew who was a pilot. Some report said it was a police pilot. Some said it ended up being a farmer who had his own plane that spotted the school bus about seven miles outside of Chow Chilah, down in a dried up riverbed. I kind of like the idea of a farmer getting out there with his own plane and finding this bus. Yeah, I like that too. I'm sure they were just glad they found it to have an idea of what happened. Well, I think finding the school bus is number one. I mean, yes, you'd love to find the kids, but the kids are connected to the school bus. You got to figure out what happened to the school bus. That's going to hopefully lead you on to, you know, the next clue. Ed Bates, the county sheriff, rushed to the

the scene only to find out that his deputies had already gotten there before him. They discovered the empty school bus. They saw some tire tracks made by other vehicles. But other than that, there really wasn't much to go on. No kids. The school bus is empty. They later found out that the kidnappers had pulled the back of the vans up to the school bus so as to not leave any of the children's footprints. These kidnappers thought some things out. Yeah, in some ways they did. I, you know, we're going to find out that they made some serious mistakes and blunders, thankfully. But you would have to say that that's, you know, from a true crime perspective, somewhat smart. They thought ahead. Okay. We don't want to to leave police clues on how many kids,

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And most reports said that it was a manhole cover. Some reports said that they then stacked heavy batteries on top of that. Obviously, they didn't want these individuals to be able to get out. Ed tried to move the manhole cover at one point, but it was too heavy. Some of the individuals down there would later say that the roof of the truck started breaking from the waiting. from the weight of the dirt on top of it, you know, the dirt was falling in.

And you know this caused panic because a lot of these kids probably thought they were going to be buried a lot. It had to be really alarming because that's something that could really happen. Those rooftops of trucks are not made to be underground with dirt on top of them. Yeah, I think some people probably don't really understand how much dirt ways, you know? Sure. You get a good level of dirt. That's a lot of force. That's a lot of pressure. The Mercedes Sunstar reported that Ed later said they could hear their abductors

cutting wire. And he said he believed these men wanted to kill them and was cutting the wire so that the dirt would cave in on them. But eventually, they didn't hear anything anymore. And that's when they made the decision that they were going to. to try to get out. Michael Marshall was the oldest kid in the group at 14. He told 48 hours that he and Ed took some of the mattresses in the truck and stacked them up. And I don't know how, but this 14 year old kid was able to get up there and moved the manhole cover some. And he discovered dirt. So he began digging, you know, through this dirt. Some of the other kids later told 48 hours that that they were cheering him on.

And they said, this guy was amazing. He just kept digging. He would not quit. And eventually he made his way through. And then he and Ed Ray helped all of the children get out. So they got out, but they had no idea where they were. Gibbs, they probably thought they were in a different state based on, you know, how long they had traveled in those van.

That's true. I mean, if they're thinking about it's been at least 11 hours, 10 hours, whatever, we're so far away from home, what are we going to do? You know, you can drive a long way in 11 hours. But if you think about it, they're probably just so excited to be out of that dark and dingy hole in the ground and just to know that they're on the surface of the ground and now they can try to figure out where to go from there. But at the same time, they were probably thinking, where are these people?

Are they nearby? Are they, you know, are they going to hear us? Are they going to come back? The Mercedes Sunstar reported that they quickly ran into a security guard at the quarry. And he said he knew all about them because it had been all over television and the papers by that point. So at that point, I think they had to have felt relief because the authorities were called. They were taken to the nearby Santa Rita Rehabilitation Center. Doctors checked them out.

And really, they were all in good conditions. There were some cuts, scrapes, bruises, things like that, but everybody was pretty healthy. The children and Ed were returned safely to Chow Chila by a police escorted bus shortly before dawn on July 17th, 1976. Probably hard for some of them to want to get on that bus.

Knowing what happened on the last bus they were on. Yeah, I get that. But you got a police escort. Maybe you feel a little bit of safety at that point. But, you know, think about it. They disappeared around 4 p.m. on the 15th. You got 11 hours.

You got another 16 hours down there. You know, by this time, it's early morning on the 17th. And then you have to think about the scene. You know, imagine the scene of all these parents seeing their kids safe after this 30 plus hour ordeal. How amazing was that? They had to be so excited, so happy. Yeah, the joy. I'm sure the tears were flowing.

So the good news is that everyone is safe. But police still have to figure out who did this. Why did they do it? Where are they? How do we get them? It turned out that the kidnappers planned to demand $5 million in ransom for this busload of children. But they ran into a big problem.

They tried to call back to child. Chilla to say, hey, we have this busload of children, give us $5 million and we'll return them safely. The problem is they couldn't get through because by the time they made the call, all the parents and people in the community already knew that these kids were missing. So the phone lines were jammed with people trying to make phone calls all over, you know, Chow Chila. They couldn't get through. So, they decided that they would go to sleep. Give us some time.

We'll call back later. Because we still have the kids. Yeah. And Ed. So let's get some rest. We'll get up. We'll make the phone call. We'll figure out how to get our money.

The problem is when they woke up, they saw on the news that Ed Ray and all the kids had escaped safely. So now what do you do? You're a kidnapper who wants to ransom something that you no longer have. No. You have no leverage. And you can't even fake it because everybody knows that these kids are safe. The investigation and trial was reported on extensively by the LA Times.

Police dug up the truck that was buried to look for clues as to who had committed the crime. They learned that the truck had been buried in November of 1975. So, you know, when we talk about planning, you know, that's starting to give you a clue of how far in advance. These individuals began planning this abduction. Investigators identified people who had keys to the quarry and they learned that Fred Woods, the son of the quarry owner, was one person who had keys. And then they found some security guards who said they saw three men digging a very large hole months before the kidnapping. You can already tell these aren't the smartest guys. I mean, Fred and his friends are digging on his dad's property where people can see them.

Now, if it goes smooth and nothing ever comes about, maybe they're good. Oh, I'm sure that's what, yeah, I'm sure that's what they thought. I don't think in their wildest dreams, they thought that, you know, these kids and Ed were going to be able to get out of this makeshift bunker that they had, you know, buried. But this discovery about Fred Woods, that led authorities to search the Woods' 100-acre estate. And right off the bat, they discovered that Fred was missing. The Modesto B reported that the authorities found a plan of kidnap, a ransom note demanding $5 million. Both of these were said to have been written in like a three-ring binder.

Okay. with lined on lined notebook paper. They also found a list of the kidnapped victims names on a jack in the box bag, a black loam ranger type mask, and a receipt for an x-ray machine. Okay. So, you know, this is not going to be a case where, you know, it's going to take a long time to figure out who was involved. You've got the ransom note.

I think, you know, more importantly, you've got to look. you've got a list of these kids' names. Yeah. On a jack in the box bag. And we mentioned it, right? They were, each kid was required to give their name, age, and everything, you know, as they were being transferred. But it's like, you know, they knew they were going to do this and didn't have any other paper.

So they just, hey, give me that jack in a box bag. I'll use that. Well, that to me seems as though it must have been a last minute idea. I don't think you go into the plan thinking or writing down, use jack in the box bag. Exactly. The paper wrote that authorities believe the kidnappers intended to use the X-ray machine to check the contents of any bags that were utilized in the delivery of the ransom money. So what are they looking for, die packs or anything that the law enforcement would have put in these bags. to track them or to mess with them.

So like I said, it really didn't take long for police to suspect Fred Woods. And it didn't take them long to connect Woods to the Schoenfeld brothers. And an APB was issued for all three men. Now, initially no arrest warrants were issued. It was just the APB for these guys so that they could be questioned. The Kingsburg recorder reported that a woman saw coverage of the kidnapping. She saw information about the vans and she called the sheriff's department. She told them that she saw two vans parked on a side street just before the kidnapping.

And she was able to give police a complete license number for one of the van. Right. That's somebody paying attention. Yeah. You know, we often talk about, you know, you see something. Yeah. Does it mean anything? This lady went for it, and it paid off.

Now, apparently, the license plate number was so new that it had an extra digit, something that they had just started doing, I guess, in California. So they had a lot of cars out there in California. They had had another digit. Yeah, it seems as though they did. The issue that resulted was that the state's computer couldn't process it. It was so new. And, you know, maybe the software or whatever they used wasn't ready for the extra digit.

So what they had to do was search records by hand. And they eventually found that the van was registered just the day before the kidnapping. Sheriff Bates told papers that it was huge break when they figured out that one of the vans, as well as the moving truck, was registered to Fred Woods. So Fred's not looking great. No, not at all. And by connection, the Schoenfeld brothers are not looking good because they know they're looking for three people. Eventually arrest warrants were issued for all three.

Fred Woods and James Schoenfeld, they took off. They weren't sticking around. Richard Schoenfeld turned himself in about a week or so after the kidnapping. So they've got Richard, they've got to find Fred and James. The Contra Costa Times reported that a San Ramon man named Lee Wallace spotted James Schoenfeld on Thursday, July 19th. Apparently he recognized the faded green van that James was driving from media reports. So this guy takes it upon himself. He starts following James.

You know, at one point they got on the freeway. Basically, he's determined not to let this guy get away. And we got all kind of good Samaritans doing some things. here. Yeah. Yeah, we really do. Now, think about it. There's no cell phones. So he can't just call the police like you would do today and say, I'm following this guy right now. Come get him. Some of the papers said that it was a pretty slow chase, 30, 40 miles an hour, sometimes even on the freeway. Okay. Because I think at some point, James knew that this guy had either recognized him or, or, you know, or, you know, or, you know, or was following him.

This guy was able to flag down a police officer who radioed out to other units and James Schoenfeld was quickly arrested. I thought it was interesting that James's defense attorney told the media later that he was on his way to turn himself in. So make sure he gets credit for that. Yeah. I just want everybody to know that. I know you guys caught him, but yeah, he was about ready to turn himself in anyway.

Yeah. When he was later questioned by NBC news reporters about why someone would commit such a crime, James said, we needed multiple victims to get multiple millions. And we picked children because children are precious. The state would be willing to pay for them and they don't fight back. I get his logic. I mean, it's messed up logic, but I see what he's saying. So two down, right? the Schoenfeld brothers are in custody.

The New York Times reported that Fred Woods was arrested by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police outside the main post office in Vancouver. I guess he'd been staying there in a cheap hotel under a fake name. When he was taken into custody, one Canadian official said that he was dressed like an amateur cowboy. Trying to be like a Rex West, was he? I guess. As opposed to a professional.

cowboy. He was just an amateur. Amateur. So to me, that means he was kind of going urban cowboy maybe. You know, he was he was dressing the part, but it was a non-functional looking cowboy outfit, I guess. Kind of like Danny. Was that his name? Danny? No. No, that was a Saturday Night Fever, I think. I don't know. I can't remember what he played in urban California. Yeah, I don't, I don't remember his name, but I mean, you know when somebody's a cowboy, when they're an actual rancher, they're roping, they're riding, they're working. Oh, sure. As opposed to you're just line dancing in boots and a buckle and a hat.

Those are two very different things. Probably just tell by looking at the boots. No, I think when you look at photos of these three guys, they look like clean cut, average, kind of all-American young men. Fred Woods did have a police record that included Grand Theft Auto, But, you know, most of the people interviewed by newspaper said all three of these guys were good guys. All three came from wealthy families. I mentioned it already, right?

Fred's father owned the quarry. Most paper said he was a millionaire. They lived on a hundred acre estate. Yeah. Sounds like they were doing okay. Yeah. And James and Richard were sons of a podiatrist. So they had good feet?

They had good feet. I'm assuming they also had some money, or he made good money. The LA Times reported that one acquaintance said a Fred. He had a bit of an acne problem, but he was really a nice kid. It's a strange thing to say, but it is. You know, you're being interviewed by a reporter. What do you remember about him? Well, he had some acne, but he seemed like a pretty good guy.

And there's no doubt we're talking about money here. Fred reportedly had two Volkswagen, two Cadillacs. an international wagon, an international pickup truck, and a Harley, all registered at the same time. I guess this guy was really into collecting vehicles. It sounded like he was really into collecting him at one point for free doing Grand Theft Auto. Well, some of those, yeah, he could have acquired illegally. I don't know. But would you then go register the card that you stole?

I doubt it. No. You would normally chop it or something like that. This same report mentioned that the show and felds lived in a neighborhood of a $160,000 homes. This is 1976. That's a pretty nice neighborhood back then. So I had to look it up. The average home price in 1976 was $40,000.

So just to put it in perspective, the average today is about 350. Now, it's probably gone up since whatever article I looked at because home prices are on the rise. Right. So if you extrapolate that out, you know, you're looking at the equivalent of what, $1.6 million. Yeah, somewhere in that ballpark. Yeah. So they were doing well. Clearly the foot business was good.

Was good to him. Yeah. For sure. And, you know, the 100 acre estate, no telling how much. that was worth then and especially now today. And don't forget, we're talking about California. So you can't, you know, you can't really do an apples to apples extrapolation with most of the country with the way that, you know, real estate has exploded there over the years. According to reports published by CBS News, the kidnapping was a plan that these guys had worked on

for about 18 months. Wow, that's a long time. Yeah, a year and a half. James later explained that the reason why they did this was despite being from, you know, wealthy families, all three of them had gotten into some financial difficulties that they couldn't get out from under. Wonder why they just didn't go to their parents. Well, I thought it was a little odd. You know, I get it.

People get into financial straits, right? you you overextend yourself or you know whatever but if you come from a wealthy family and your two choices let's say you only had two choices which i'm obviously you wouldn't have but you're deciding between asking mom and dad to help me versus kidnapping a school bus full of children that doesn't seem like a hard decision you know and maybe they did ask their parents and their parents are like, you know what, we're tired of billing you out. We're always billing you out. You're on your own.

Yeah, that could have been. I didn't see anything in the research about it, but you're absolutely right. But if the parents knew that, okay, that I'm going to do my own thing, I think if the parents knew that they were going to do this, they might have said, you know what? Hang on here. Yeah, I don't know that they would have told them that, okay, you're not going to give me any money.

This is my plan. Exactly. Some papers reported that there were satanic overtone. to the kidnapping because James Schoenfeld was into the occult. It is the 70s, man. How can we do a story in the 70s, 80s without mentioning somebody being into the occult? Right. The problem is what they seem to use to back it up was an associated press report that a friend of

Jameses said that he had seen the exorcist. Oh. about 10 months prior to the kidnapping, and it made him have some strange dreams. It made a lot of people have some strange dreams and nightmares. Yeah. So if watching the Exorcist and it messing with you a little bit is you being in the occult,

then I think a lot more people are into the occult than we know. I still don't like watching that movie. And you know how bad it looks now when you watch it because of the sematography or whatever you call it. Yeah, the special effects, obviously. It's an older movie. Did I ever tell you the time that my youngest daughter and I sat down and watched The Exorcist? I think you did.

She laughed through the entire thing. And I'm thinking, you know, I'm 40-some years old. I know what's going to happen. This is still a little spooky to me. Right. Yeah. And she's like giggling, cackling. She thought it was funny.

She still says it's one of the funniest movies she's ever seen. I don't know what's wrong with her. So all three men are in custody all were charged with, you know, a slew of counts, kidnapping for ransom, robbery, kidnapping with bodily harm. Initially, they all pleaded not guilty to all the charges. On November 5th, 1976, a Madeira County judge ordered the trial to be moved from Madeira County and it was eventually assigned to Alameda County. And to me, that makes a lot of sense.

You and I just talked about it. I know in one recent episode where, you know, a judge refused to move the trial. Yeah. Even though there was a ton of publicity. And this is a case that received a massive amount of coverage. I do think you're taking a chance. You're setting yourself up for a potential issue down the road. Yeah, you are.

if you don't entertain and seriously consider, you know, moving a trial of this magnitude. I think it was a very smart decision. Yeah. You know, some appeals court is going to come back and say, well, these guys didn't get a fair trial because there's no way they could have received an impartial jury. In 1977, in what many papers called a surprise move, all three men, pleaded guilty to 27 counts of kidnapping for ransom. The prosecution as part of the plea deal dropped the counts of robbery.

But they would not plead guilty to the charges of kidnapping with bodily harm. And I actually didn't know there was this type of difference in kidnapping charges. But apparently there was a good reason. The New York Times reported that kidnapping for ransom carried a minimum penalty of seven years. But kidnapping with bodily harm carried a mandatory life sentence without the possibility of parole. Huge difference. That is a huge difference. So you could see why they would possibly be okay with pleading to one, but not the other. Right. So the trial for those charges move forward, like right away. And this is where the victims and some of the victims family members

got to testify about, you know, what they went through at the hands of these men and how their actions had changed their lives. And there was a lot of great stories published about, you know, what were still young children who were willing to get up and face their kidnappers and tell their stories. Good for them. Yeah, you got to give it up to them, no doubt. I mentioned it earlier, physically no one was really hurt to a large degree. There were cuts, scrapes, bruises. Some people fainted. There was vomiting. We mentioned that. But physically, not really much outside of that. Now, mentally and emotionally, we know. It's a much different story. So that's in large part where, you know, the testimony from the victims and their families came in. Yeah, and that kind of

harm will last for a long time, right? The emotional and mental part, sure. Now, some of them did testify about the poor air quality down there and that they stood in line to get whiffs of air from the blower hose in this underground container. Because I mentioned it earlier. I kind of foreshadowed the fact that, you know, this air quality, this ventilation and and everything that went into it would play a major role at trial. Yeah. Because what the prosecution did was set out to show the court that the three men had inflicted bodily harm or had intended to.

And this is where the conditions come in, right? The heat inside the van, the heat inside the underground bunker, the air quality, all of that. the prosecution had an expert industrial hygienist named Michael Oberg, testify about the temperatures in the bunker as well as the humidity and the air quality. And then the prosecution brought on doctors who kind of used his data and testified as to what injuries could have occurred. So I think what they were doing was not so much, okay, this. is exactly what happened, but here's what could have happened. Right. Because what if they don't escape? What if they're left down there for a much longer period of time? We have no idea how long

these kidnappers plan to leave them, you know, stuck down there. So it's a good thing those kids got out of there because it could have been really bad for them based off what this Michael Oberg said. The longer they would have stayed in that truck in the ground, it could have got really bad. Yeah, I mean, I think that's the key. I think that's what the prosecution was trying to do, right? We don't know how long these kidnappers plan to keep them down there. You would have to assume the air quality is not going to get better. It's just going to get worse and worse. The conditions are going to get worse. We talked about, you know, there is no toilet, flushing toilet down there. So in a very short time, you're going to have, fecal matter in the air. Sure. You're going to have things that could cause damage to people. Really, you know, all I could find as far as the defense was that they tried their best to poke holes in the methodology used by Michael Oberg. We see that a lot, you know, in trials where there's some type of

scientific testimony. As a defense attorney, you want to try to poke holes in all. You know, of that. Sure. But apparently it didn't work because on December 15th, 1977, a superior court judge found all three guilty of three counts of kidnapping with bodily harm, which carried a mandatory sentence of life in prison without the possibility of parole. But these guys had money. They had good attorneys. They appealed and a higher court eventually ordered them to be resentenced to life with parole. And in their ruling, the court stated that the injuries inflicted didn't rise to meet the standard of bodily harm. That's a big break. It's a break for the defendants, for sure. You know, big difference between life with no possibility of parole and life with the possibility of parole.

Because in June of 2012, Richard Schoenfeld was the first to be granted from parole. So he spent, you know, 36 years, including the time from his arrest. He was incarcerated for 36 years. Well, he was the first one and the only one that turned himself in. Yeah. And I did read in a couple of spots where it was reported that he was really the only one of the three to ever show, you know, some type of remorse, especially early on. I did read one report that said the Schoenfeld's reached out to some of the victims years later asking for forgiveness, but I didn't find that in a lot of places. I don't know how accurate that is.

Three years later, James Schoenfeld received parole. So that just left Fred Woods. And Fred Woods, he really turned out to be a strange character. You know, CBS News reported in 2019 that from prison, Woods had been directing it, least three businesses, the Ambria Acres Christmas tree farm, the Little Bear Creek gold mine near Lake Tahoe, and a used car business. Gibbs, he's in prison. Running three businesses. Now, he did have a ton of money. He inherited a trust fund from his parents. Some papers reported that it was more than a hundred million dollars. Oh, that's a big chunk of change. Now, his attorney

he disputed that, said, no, it's nowhere near 100 million. But it must have been pretty substantial, whatever the amount was, because Woods purchased a mansion about 30 minutes away from where he was in prison, which was appraised at $1.5 million. He also married three times while he was in prison. CBS News also reported that two of the vehicles in his inventory, which I think was pretty massive. know he was into cars. He was also running a used car business. But two of those were the twin vans that were used in the kidnapping. Wow. Somebody told CBS News that Woods kept the old vans because he thought the notoriety of what happened would make them worth a lot of money. And, you know,

sadly, it probably would. Yeah, especially if you buy them off the guy that actually committed the crime. So from my understanding, it wasn't against the law or maybe still isn't against the law because this is fairly recent for an inmate to run a business from prison. But I think he was trying to keep, you know, some of it quiet. What happened was that one of his workers had an accident and it was a guy who kind of managed all three or some aspect of all three of his businesses. This guy injured his back, neck and shoulder and he needed surgery.

but Woods wouldn't allow it. He said, hey, that's not my problem. So this guy filed a claim with the state workers compensation board. So that really made the board have to determine whether Woods was hiring employees, running a business from prison. So I don't know if it was technically illegal, but I don't know that it looks great to the parole board, maybe. The LA Times reported that in 2016. Woods's trust fund was used to settle a civil lawsuit brought by 26 of the victims because by that time, one of the survivors had passed away in an accident. So he paid an undisclosed amount to 26 of the survivors. One survivor later said it was enough to pay for some intensive therapy, but not enough to purchase a house or anything substantial.

I'm glad they got something. Well, you know, when you think about it, yes, do you want to see these individuals go to prison? You do. Sure. You know, as one of the children, you know, is Ed or whoever, you want to see them pay for what they did to you. But how does that help when, you know, for the rest of your life? You're probably racking up therapy bills and, you know, having issues, some of which will, we'll talk about in a minute. So to file a civil lawsuit, I get that. You know, maybe part of its

punishment, but maybe part of it is, hey, you owe me. You did this to me. Yeah. You've caused me, you know, mental, emotional and financial difficulties. You changed the outcome of my life. Yeah, absolutely. In 2019, Woods appealed again for parole and was again denied. But in 22, at the age of 70 and on his 18th attempt, the parole board voted to approve his parole. So, you know, this just happened a few months ago. He's not technically been released. The way I understand it is it's up to Governor Gavin Newsom of California to either let the decision stand or refer it for a full parole board review. I believe it was only two individuals. on the parole board who made the decision.

So he has the option to kick it back, much like they do in some higher courts, where you get all the people on the court involved. Well, sometimes it's better just to do that because you put that decision on them. We'll have to wait and see because this happened so recently. One interesting note is that Gavin Newsom's father was the judge that present.

over the trial of these three guys. Oh, that's very interesting. Yeah, I've found that fascinating. You know, Governor Newsom's not liked by everyone. I think they tried to recall him recently, if I remember correctly. I think he survived it, but you know, as we wrap up, Gibbs, the Chow Chila school bus kidnapping remains the largest kidnapping in U.S. history. I did not know that.

But now you do. I do. And we got to talk a little bit more about Ed. Ray. I mean, this guy was hailed as a hero. He was asked to speak at a number of functions. He really was a good guy. He was a down-to-earth guy. You know, there were articles that I read from, you know, the 1970s where he would be asked to go to, let's say, a rotary club or, you know, something to speak. Right. He wasn't an accomplished public speaker, but he would get up there. He would speak from the heart and, you know, he would leave. Yeah. I just, from everything I gathered about him,

he was the genuine article. Humble. Humble, good guy. And, and I think, you know, what speaks volumes is that he went right back to driving the bus because that's what he liked to do. He loved it. He loved the kids. And, you know, that's what he wanted to do. I'm sure getting back to driving the bus was his own therapy. It probably was. You know, getting back to normal, getting back to, you know, maybe what he was used to. But I'm sure all the kids that got him as their bus driver was probably very excited. They were ecstatic. Oh yeah. We got Ed. Ed's going to take care of us. You know, the kids that were involved in this, you know they all had to deal with the trauma. They endured. I'm sure it affected all of them deeply, some more than others.

There have been a lot of articles written about some of the individuals. You know, many of them struggled with anxiety issues, some with substance abuse issues, others with rage issues. It's going to happen. Sure it is. You can't think that especially very young children are going to go through a very traumatic experience and not have any lasting effects. I mean, they're going to have to deal with it on how it impacted them and then they're going to have their parents and how it impacted the

parents and how the parents treated the kids after that. Yeah, because we, as we often talk about, what do some parents do once they experience something like this? There's a tightening of the reins. We can't let you just go out. and be a kid the way we used to because we're scared. Right. And that changes how they would have grown up. I did read a number of articles where the kidnapper said they were inspired by the plot of the movie Dirty Harry with Clint Eastwood, which came out in 1971.

I don't know if you remember that movie. I watched it maybe last year. Yeah. You know, it's got a zodiac connection. You know, Clint Eastwood is a. Right. The Zodiac connection is there's a character, I think his name is Scorpio. And he writes letters in and he he does all this.

But part of what he does is abduct to school bus. And you know that Zodiac always wrote letters that he was going to, you know, shoot out the tires of school buses. And then he was going to shoot the kids as they came off as they came off. I kind of remember some of the Dirty Harry movie, you know. Well, there's a bunch of them. So some of them, they kind of probably. bleed together a little bit, run together. Good franchise for Clint.

So I played the ballad of Chal Chila Ray at the beginning of the episode. I also found a version that was done by Robert Goulet as well, which I found interesting. I didn't feel the need to play it. It was just kind of a fun fact. Yeah. You know, Ed died, I believe in 2012. They do a celebration still to this day in Chalchilla every year for him. I think they named a park after him.

You know, like I said, he really was hailed as a hero. And even after death, he's still a very prominent figure in the community. It speaks volumes. It does. It does. And I think it speaks volumes about what he did during that episode. But it also tells you he lived a really good life. He didn't do anything bad after that or they, they wouldn't be celebrating him today.

I think he was just a good guy. And, you know, as for these three guys, did they get what they deserved? You know, 36 years in prison, 39 years in prison. Fred is still in prison. Right. He will probably be let out. That's a long time. It is a long time.

You know, 30, 40 years of your life. Now, I still think they got lucky because they very likely could have received no parole and died in prison. Yeah. I think they got lucky that day, too, because that could have caved in. I see what you're saying. So they had a plan. Yeah. I don't like the plan.

It's not a good plan. Don't kidnap anybody. Exactly. But they had a plan. I think to your point, that plan could have gone very badly in a way that they may not have intended for it to go. If that thing caves in, every person in their dots. Right.

or, you know, were these experts in ventilation? How did they know? If there was going to be enough air in there for however long, they were going to have to hold these people hostage to get what they wanted. And how they know they were getting rid of the carbon monoxide? Sure. The right way. How did they know?

I mean, this is say the plan worked, as far as, you know, the kids didn't get out. They got their money. They delivered the kids safely. I mean, what's the chances of chances of that even going that way? Well, and to me, that's always, you know, the thing. And we mentioned they bought an x-ray machine. Right.

Because they were kind of thinking ahead that obviously the police are going to want to track this money. They're going to try to, that's the, the, usually the hardest part. How do you get the money? Right. You know, in the movies, it's, I've somehow planned a cell phone in your pocket. I call you. I tell you to, you know, get in your car, but don't, don't call anybody else on the police force

and you drop it in this trash receptacle and I'll pick it up on a bike or, you know, whatever. But I don't know how those things work successfully very often. Even if they got $5 million, how were they going to use that money? I'm sure because the FBI was involved, they wrote down the numbers on the bills. And I'm sure they were going to find a way to. try to track those throughout the region. So you have to find a way to launder $5 million? Yeah, but isn't it always a combination of there is some planning involved?

But is it good planning? Is it full proof planning? Or is it some guys that, you know, think, okay, we're pretty smart. We can pull this off as long as we plan it out. Yeah. But they're not experts. these are not master criminals. So, you know, something is bound to go wrong.

I do think, you know, back to your point, it's lucky that nothing went wrong to the point where anybody got killed. Yes. Now, I will say, I couldn't find anything about the Schoenfelds getting in trouble after they're out. I mean, granted, they're, you know, probably closing in on or now 70 or in their 70s. I don't know how much hell raising they're going to do at this point, but probably not too much. I think people could look at it a couple different ways and say, all right, maybe they,

they serve their time, they'll live out their life and not do anything wrong. Maybe the parents think a little differently. I think I would as a parent. Sure. I would just rather you not get out. Yeah. Ever. So I don't have to worry about you.

But that's it, Gibbs for our episode on the Chow Chilha Kidnapping. We've got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Yeah, let's listen to them. Hey, this is Carrie Fallon from Colorado. I just want to let you guys know, you had me absolutely rolling with the latest episode where Fergie finally, finally accepted the actual pronunciation for the state in Illinois, and then getting promptly, prompted, promptly threatened to get his cousins involved.

I just thought it was great. I'm sitting out here in my backyard, doing my self-care on my weekend. And, man, I think this might be my favorite. episode ever. I'm all caught up. I've been listening for years and I'm about to literally restart from the beginning from the Iceman. So that's my next episode. Thanks guys for all you do. And even though me and Gibby trip over our worth, stay safe and keep your own time to get inside. Well, I don't worry about a lot of things, but I do worry about your cousins. Well, you know, I feel like a great deal of bodily harm.

could come my way if I get on the wrong side of your cousins. Don't want to do that. I don't. Did she say she was doing some self-care? Yeah. I'm not allowed to do self-care out in my yard. I have to do self-care inside. It's illegal.

It's illegal for me to do my self-care out in the yard. Hey, guys, it's Leslie from Utah. Happy 4th of July. I'm just listening to your this weekend's approach, Lawrence Stanton, and the unsolved one, while I go with you ribs and make you. macaroni salad, but I was just listening to Giddy talk about how whenever he hears the word Kenosha, he thinks of John Candy, and right as he was saying that, I was mocking to myself the Kenosha kickers, and then Gibby said the same thing, because that's the poker band from

home alone. But I was laughing away, and my family was asking what I was laughing about, and they just don't understand how much I love all of the mystery. So one other thing I have to tell you about for me. It cracks me up every week when you send out the Patreon only emails because it totally doesn't say Patreon. It says Patron, which makes me think I should have a shot every time I listen to that week's episode because it's for Patron only. Anyways, it makes me laugh every time. I really love you guys. You guys are like a set of friends that I've never gotten to see in person.

So take care. Happy Fourth of July and happy birthday to both of you. Bye. Now I want ribs. I want patron. It's actually patron. And I don't actually send those emails out. I schedule them to be sent out. But they put some whatever that language is. I think it's all to me.

I still want some patron. Okay. You get some patron. I'll get the ribs and we'll have a good old time. There you go. I can't believe I'm actually calling you guys. My name is Daddy Steele. I'm a fairly new listener, but a huge binge listener.

I'm calling from Redmond, Oregon, which is in central Oregon. and it does get hot here and it does get really cold here. I heard a one of you viewers from, I think, Medford at this Borgon doesn't get cold. It does get cold. Not as cold as you guys. But the reason why I'm calling is the four fiesta car. I used to have a hugo, a red one. Talk about a terribly embarrassing car to drive around.

I was like 17, 18 at the time. My father gave it to me. So it was a freaking car. Awesome. Exciting. But embarrassing. This damn thing would never go into reverse. And so I always had a part in certain situations.

to make sure that I didn't have to back the car up. So I don't know why. I just thought I'd call you guys and tell you about the Yugo, which I believe is worse than the four Fiesta. Thanks. And you guys, keep your own time taken. Love the podcast, 19. Both you guys. Love you guys both.

I'm about the same age. I thought you might be older, but I've been listening close. You're the same age. You guys have a great day. Thanks. All right. Love you too. Tough when your car won't go in reverse.

I remember those came out, man. They were so cheap. Ugo, Ugo's make Ford Fiestas look like Rolls Royces. Yeah. The Ugo, again, sorry, if you had a Ugo, if you love Ugo's, was one of the just worst cars. Yeah. I don't know how it compares to like a Gremlin or a Pacer or some of those cars where people think that, okay, those are historically bad cars. Yeah.

You go was just a cheap, just a cheap, bad car. It didn't last long here, that's for sure. No, well, it wasn't made here, right? Right. It was imported, but, yeah, not good, not good. But, hey, when it's free, take what you get. It's for me. Isn't that what you always tell me?

Well, if it's free, it's for me. We had mailbag Gibbs. Andrea Williams sent me a hallmark ornament from the movie airplane. Yeah. It's actually the plane all twisted up. It's very cool. cool because I love that movie she sent you a t-shirt that says I speak fluent movie quotes and a big thing of Twizzlers which I ate some of those before we did it the minute you walk down here you open that bag of

twizzlers I did not wait you might have a problem all right buddy that is it for another episode of true crime all the time so for Mike and Gabby stay safe and keep your own time ticking