True Crime All The Time - The Freeman Family Murders

Episode Date: March 22, 2021

Bryan and David Freeman were two teenagers in Pennsylvania rebelling against authority. Their parents, Dennis and Brenda Freeman, were devout members of the Jehovah's Witness religion. Bryan and David shunned their religion and began to take up with various neo-nazi and white supremacist groups. As their parents tried to gain control, the anger within Bryan and David Rose. It culminated when they murdered their parents, along with their younger brother Erick, with the help of their cousin Nelson Birdwell.Join MIke and Gibby as they discuss this case involving kids who wanted to push back against authority and made the decision to take the lives of their family members. This is an extremely scary case. Dennis and Brenda knew that their sons were getting out of control and they tried to correct their behavior. But, the more strict they got with the boys, the angrier their sons became. On February 26, 1995, they bludgeoned their family to death and went on the run.You can support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital producitonSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 225 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson, Gibby. How are you? Hey man, I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing great. That's good. I'm excited. We got some new equipment. I'm hoping that, you know, our sound comes through and is, is even better than what we were cranking out before. Well, you know, I got it off the back and in that truck. Yeah. I know you got a great deal on it. Really good deal. which is usually how things that you supply are acquired. Exactly.

Not stolen per se, but no, no. This is very, very low cost, dash free. Sometimes people get too much inventory. And things fall off truck. Exactly. All right, buddy. We got some great Patreon supporters. Let's give some shoutouts.

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Gibbs, I did an interview on ABC News this past week on the death of Ronald Defeo Jr. and his murders and all of that. It was interesting. That's the first time I've ever done something like that for national news. Very cool. Yeah, I thought it was cool. It was interesting. I would do it again for sure.

Right now on True Crime All Time Unsolved, we have a great episode out. We're talking about the 2011 murder of Karina Saunders headed to Oklahoma. It's an interesting case with a lot of, you know, details, especially around. Karina, but a lot of potential suspects. Oh, man. So many that, you know, police looked at were on their radar. They just could never put together enough on any one person. A lot of bad activity going on in that area. No doubt. All right, Gibbs. Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I'm all set. We're talking about the Freeman family murders. This is an extremely scary story about sons who rebelled against their parents in the worst way imaginable.

The Freeman's were a family that lived in Allentown, Pennsylvania, in a quiet, peaceful neighborhood. Brenda and Dennis Freeman were deeply religious. They loved their children. Their three boys, Brian, David, and Eric all grew up, just like, you know, any normal kid, but Brian and David were far from normal. They're neo-nodontious. They're neo-nodian. Nazi beliefs, mental health issues, and extreme violent urges cause them to commit a horrific act against their family, bringing the Freeman family as the community knew it to a tragic end. Well, it's going to maybe have you seeing a little bit of Billy Joel. Allentown?

Yeah, I thought about that. Maybe not now. Maybe not now. Not the right time for it. Right. But, you know, I've said it. We'll probably talk about it later. but, you know, these cases, they scare the you know what out of me.

It's alarming. Go back to that interview I did about Ronald DeFaio Jr. That was his scary story. Yeah. You're talking about, you know, kid, a man. He was a man, but who essentially murdered his entire family. And I don't think it's just you and I. I think a lot of listeners, because I get emails and things like that, you know,

they're scary stories to them as well. Oh, they sure is. Because you think about how much work goes into. raising your child. It's a lot. It is. At times it's everything. Money, time, time, resources, kind of almost exclusively devoted to raising a child and or children to think that one of them, or in this case, two of them would turn on you, unimaginable. Yeah, it's a nightmare. Brenda Freeman was born in Chattanooga, Tennessee to parents Nelson Birdwell Senior and Peggy Birdwell.

Dennis was born in Los Angeles, California, to parents, Clarence, and Ruth Freeman. It's always interesting to me to see, okay, where are people born? How do they get from Chattanooga in California to meet up together and marry? I don't have all the details around, you know, the meeting and their courtship and their marriage,

but they got married. They had kids. Dennis and Brenda were both very involved in their children's lives. Yeah, I think both of them, Dennis and Brenda, were quiet. They were reserved, but they were also very active in their Jehovah's Witness congregation. And, you know, this is a huge part of this story. In everything you read about Brenda and Dennis, they were deeply religious. very, very committed to the Jehovah's Witness religion.

They volunteered in the ministry, and Brenda volunteered at Harry S. Truman Elementary School. How many Harry S. Truman Elementary schools do you think there have been in the United States? I'm going to say there's probably at least seven. Oh, my gosh. I think there's probably seven in some states. Okay. More than one state.

I think there's a lot. Like 22? No, way more. Really? In the United States? Yeah. No, it's like John F. Kennedy High School. How many of those?

There's a bunch of. How many M.A. Gibson high schools are out there? None. Not one? None. Well, there might be, but they are dedicated to somebody completely indifferent,

not yourself. It's kind of cool to have a welcome to Gibby High. Okay, yeah, it would be cool. The problem is that usually happens after death. Right. So it's not really something that most, people would want right now. Maybe start up the Gibi Academy.

The foundation maybe or something like that you could do in life. Yeah. Learn some Ghibi language. Dennis and Brenda built their family home 18 years before their deaths and raised all their children in Salisbury Township, Pennsylvania, a middle class to working class area. The Freemans didn't have a lot of money, but they had enough to live. They had plenty to get bought.

I, Dennis was the head custodian at Southern Lehigh High School and had been for eight years. He was also a Navy veteran. He didn't talk much to his coworkers. And he really wasn't the type of guy to talk about his family. But he was kind of a deep guy. He enjoyed reading Shakespeare and Plato. And when he did talk to others, he liked to discuss philosophy. We all know somebody like that.

You know, they don't really talk about their family. in detail, but they will lay some heavy philosophy. Socrates on you. Socrates, that's right. It is, it is kind of interesting how you have some of those people, and let's just look at coworkers who really love to talk about their family. I mean, it's almost like, you know, on Monday morning, you're going to find out exactly what happened. Everything. Over the weekend with Johnny and Susie and Uncle Dave and, you know, cousin Mike Gibson and all of that. And then there are, certain people that they love their family, no less than this other person, they're just not as comfortable kind of giving out the details, I guess. Right. It's okay either way. Yeah,

I'm good with all that. Well, I'm glad you are. But drop a little Socrates on me. And then you're out. Brendan, Dennis were described as decent, normal people who were troubled by the change that they started to see in their sons, but they didn't know where to turn for help. I think like a lot of people, the Freeman's had high expectations for their children, but their oldest sons, Brian and David, were difficult to discipline and control. Their youngest child Eric was in the sixth grade and had no behavior problems at all. Unfortunately, Eric had to grow up in a household where he was terrorized.

by his older brothers. Now, a lot of younger brothers go through that. Oh, for sure. And I'm sitting across from one, I think. Well, I was the middle kid. Oh, you were the middle. But you still had an older brother. I sure did, man.

And I had to, you know, take on his wrath. And, you know, my little brother had to take on both his and my wrath. Because you know what rolls downhill. Exactly. In that scenario. Yeah. I think this went beyond what most of us would think of as kind of, brotherly infighting what Eric was subjected to you know Brian and David they didn't like rules

they didn't want to be told what to do these were also two pretty large and strong kids making it even harder to control them I don't know if you've ever seen that Gibbs but you know you've got mom and then you know she has a 16 17 year old son It was like 6-3-2-40. Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, kind of hard to lay down the law, kind of hard to say, hey, if you don't do this, you're going to get a whipping.

Right. Really, Mom? Yeah. You're going to whip me? You know, my youngest, my boy. Yeah, he's a big guy, you know. He's a big Buford, as I always say. So, you know, I have to intimidate him in different ways.

That's not an easy position, though, for parents to be in, you know, and a lot of times, especially the mom if, and let's face it, sometimes moms are in charge of discipline, sometimes dads are, sometimes it's split. But, you know, in a lot of households, kind of mom is the word. Right. And lays down the law. Well, pretty tough in a situation like that. When Brian and David became teenagers, they rejected their religion. And they joined the skinheads to defy their parents' authority. That's a pretty big deal for a family, you know, reject your family's religion. Huge. Yeah, especially for this family because they were very devout, very involved in the church, and the kids all were as well. Now, all of a sudden, we don't want anything to do with it. Right. So they have to

deal with that and deal with the church leaders looking at them. Probably not favorable because you can't, you know, keep good control of your kids. But then on the fact that now they're joining the skinheads. Yeah. We're going to talk a little neo-Nazi as well. Yeah. Dennis tried to give his kids something productive to do. He helped them get jobs at the high school as custodians where, you know, something that he did.

That didn't work. They used to play basketball with their dad. But eventually, you know, all of that stopped. The relationship just got to be extremely toxic. So basically you went from, you know, a family, the Freemans who were at one time a very close-knit family. But as the two oldest boys grew up, you know, the problems just got worse and worse. And to the parents, I'm sure it felt like it happened overnight. Yeah, it does, right.

You know, it's like, what happened? We used to be so close. We used to do things together, shared meals together, you know, huddled around the TV. And now this. Yeah, I definitely get what you're saying because those years can pass so quickly or seem like they pass so quickly that in the blink of an eye, you turn around and you're like, what happened? Or where did this time go? I mentioned Brian and David became neo-Nazis who identified with, you know, kind of the skinhead

type groups. I had to look up Gibbs, the Webster's dictionary of neo-Nobes. Nazi. And it's pretty much exactly what you would think. A member of a group espousing the programs and policies of Hitler's Nazis. Okay, nothing about that sentence is good whatsoever. No, whatsoever. And I know there are groups out there that believe what he believed. It's hard to believe. Yeah, it's hard to believe someone would believe that. Exactly. Because he's such a hated, vile figure. Right.

Because of his views and what, you know, he believed and what he stood for and, and his feelings on race and, and just all of that. Right. Just, just a vile human being. Now, skinheads, on the other hand, has two different Webster definitions. Number one, a person whose hair is cut very short. My hair is very, very short. It is very short.

So technically by Webster's definition, I'm a skinhead. Yeah. I call it being bald, but with very little hair, it just happens to be short. Yeah. But I think the definition that most people think of or most people relate to when you hear that term, skinhead, is a usually white male belonging to any of various sometimes violent youth gangs whose members have close shaven hair and often espouse white supremacist beliefs.

I think by and large, most people when they hear the term, that's what they think of. They absolutely do. Yeah. I don't think they think of the first term. And I think maybe a lot of times those terms get used interchangeably, right? Neo-Nazis, skinheads. I think they do. I think so too.

I think they get associated with each other very frequently. Yeah. In the news and movies, pop culture, things like that, I think they're often used interchangeably. I'm not sure they mean exactly the same, but very similar, right? If you are espousing white supremacist beliefs, well, you're basically following the policies of Hitler, right? And that's what he believed it. Sure did. The brothers were close friends with their cousin Nelson Birdwell III, who was nicknamed Benny.

And I guess people called them the three musketeers. I mean, they did everything together. but they were also all three troubled teens who were attracted to the skinhead movement as a sign of rebellion. I mean, this is basically what they were doing. Hey, we don't want to be involved in the Jehovah's Witness religion.

We're rejecting that. Right. Mom and dad, we're rejecting everything that you've taught us, everything that you believe in as well. And we're going about as extreme to the opposite of the way. we can't. Well, in that movement also, that's one of the recruiting methods, right? They want those troubled teens, those kids that are really not sure where they belong because they're saying,

hey, you belong here with us. Well, I'm going to take your word for that because I don't know much about the recruiting methods of some of these groups. Yeah. But I think just using logic, you can say, well, that makes sense because who else is going to follow? You. You know, You know, these people or who else is going to subscribe to some of these ideas if you're not troubled. If you're not trying to rebel and I just don't know who else would do it. You and I have talked before. We both did some things, you know, as teenagers that we'd look back on and say, hmm, yeah, I probably shouldn't have done that.

You know what never went through my mind is I should. should join a neo-Nazi slash skinhead group because I'm mad at mom and dad. No. That never went through my mind because I never held any of those beliefs. I never thought like that. Right. It was never an option. No.

I just, I just would never have even thought about getting into a mindset that these people are in. So foreign to me. Yeah. The only thing you ever joined was the furries. Yeah. Yeah, that was foreign at first, but, you know, peaceful.

Yeah, peaceful. Yeah. They, they accept all races, religions and crees. Yeah. So, very comfortable. But no doubt, right? They're, they're rebelling against authority. They're rejecting authority.

At times, they were doing it violently. And this whole time, Gibbs, neighbors had no idea what was really going on in the Freeman house. Now, close friends and family knew that. There were some difficulties with the older brothers, but I don't think anyone knew the severity of the difficulties. A district attorney would later come out and say that the two older sons had basically been terrorizing the family for years. So you had David, Brian, and Nelson allegedly attending white supremacist gatherings at the home of this guy named Mark Thomas.

Thomas eventually went to federal prison for taking part in a nationwide bank robbery ring run by the Aryan Republican army. Well, pretty bad, uh, gang. Yeah, gang army. They call themselves an army, I guess. What is the meaning of that word, right? It's like all of these things are synonymous with each other, right? The Aryan movement, skinheads, neo-Nazis.

Right. Now, are they all exactly the same? I don't know, but I think the average person hears any one of those three and thinks pretty much the same exact thing. I agree with you. Yeah. Brian David and Nelson had unhealthy influences from people who, you know, essentially encouraged violence and racism.

Now, all three have said that they weren't formally part of the skinheads. But in the months before the murders, they shaved their heads. and they began to wear military-style clothing. I mean, it's a look we all associated with skinheads, the military clothing, the Army boots or the military boots, and I'll see the shaved head. Yeah, I'm not arguing with you, no doubt. But what I will say is I guarantee you there's somebody right now in the United States

who shaves their head and happens to like to wear Army fatigues. Yeah. And they don't share any of the same thoughts or ideas. So I mean, obviously, we all know. You have to be careful judging a book by its cover. But what you're saying is, is true. I mean, when you associate that look with some of these movements, but when one day they all showed up with Nazi tattoos on their foreheads, I think you can pretty much, uh, throw what I just said out the window. Yeah, there's your giveaway. Yeah, you're, you're not trying to fool anybody at that point. If you're going to the extreme of having a Nazi symbol tattooed on your forehead. Yeah. You're not putting it on your left butt cheek where nobody can see it. Maybe it peaks out of a speedo, but other than that, it's pretty much covered up. Yeah, I don't see those guys wearing speedos, but not, not normally. Yeah. I think, think the face tattoo person. Yeah. That is definitely someone who's saying, hey, this is me. Whatever is,

whatever the face tattoo is. Right. The neck tattoo, the face tattoo. Yeah. This is me. I'm not trying to hide anything. Sure. Which is fine. Absolutely. I think unless you have a swastika or, you know, something like that in plain view, you're, you're going to get some turned heads for sure. Oh, big time. They didn't go swastika. Brian and Nelson had what are called berserker tattoos. And David had the words Sig Heil tattooed on his forehead. So I don't know that Sig Heil is any better than just putting a swastika right in the middle of your forehead.

Right. Yeah. Definitely going to get some people walking the opposite direction. Well, and these kids are still in school. I mean, how are you showing up to school? school with the words Sig Heil tattooed on your forehead. I mean, I get it. It's all about, you know, being able to express who you are, but you also have to or not allow it to offend somebody in that matter. Yeah, I think you can say that about anything, right? Be who you are,

freedom of speech, all that stuff. Yeah. But is it too much to ask not to offend whole groups of people. Yeah. Or, you know, go out of your way. This isn't even like an accident. You didn't say something that where you didn't mean for it to offend, but it did offend. You know what you're doing when you're tattooing these things. And I mentioned it, right? Brian and David were big guys. I think even in school, Brian was six two, David was six three. So they already kind of stood out, tall, big guys. Now they have these tattoos that are making them stand out even more. They're going to be intimidating. And Brian was the oldest. And allegedly, you know, he was the one who kind of initiated this

rebellion. It's been painted as David really wanting to follow his older brother. But no doubt he went along and joined in. Hey, T-Cat fans, for most of us learning a second language in high school, college wasn't exactly a high point in our academic careers. I took Spanish in high school. I remember some of it, but not a whole lot. Now, thanks to Babel, the number one selling language learning app, there's an addictively fun and easy way to learn a new language, whether you're going to be traveling abroad, connecting in a deeper way with family, or you just have some free time. Babel teaches bite-sized language lessons that you'll actually use in the real world. I chose Spanish because I think I would have a better chance to use it here in the U.S. Babel's 15-minute lessons make it the perfect

way to learn a new language on the go. Babel designs their courses with practical real-world conversations in mind. These are things that you'll get to use in everyday life. With Babel, you can choose from 14 different languages, including Spanish, French, Italian, German, and more. Plus, Babel's speech recognition technology helps you to improve your pronunciation and accent. Gibby's using it just for the accent. Start your new language learning journey today with Babel. Right now when you purchase a three month Babel subscription, you'll get an additional three months for free. That's six months for the price of three. Just go to babble.com and use the promo code T-Cat. That's B-A-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-E-L.com, code T-C-C-A-T-T for an extra three-month-for-life. So we talked about school. The boys had a lot

of problems in school. One time, instead of taking a test, Brian wrote racist and anti-Semitic notes, as well as notes about attacking his father on the paper. And I guess you just turned that in. No, I'm not going to answer any of your test questions, but here's some anti-Semitic remarks for your reading leisure. What are you going to do about it, teacher? Well, and I think that's where you get into, you know, really kind of a, an interesting area. What does a teacher do? Now, I'm thinking that at the very least, you got to run that by a principal, you know, the anti-Semitic remarks, the racist remarks, okay, that's nasty. Right. But you've also got a kid who's talking about attacking his father.

Yeah. At the very least, it's got to be reported to someone. Yeah, well, you got to do what's right. And that's what's right. You've got to make sure that the proper authority, knows about it. Well, apparently the teacher did report the incident because Brian ended up getting suspended for it. But what I thought was interesting was that the teacher also wrote back on the paper. So she essentially graded it, which I don't know how it could have been anything other than an F, but she put on there that Brian should rethink his ideas. Well, maybe she was hoping that her comment would get through his head. But I don't know how that comment's going to do anything really. And it's a shame really to think about it because from what I understand,

he was a really good student until he made this turn to the skinhead. Dark side. I thought you were going to say. Yeah. He basically turned to the dark side. But you're right. Made the honor roll, was a good student. I think he was a good kid. And it was almost like at some point, you know, during his childhood slash adolescent years, the switch flipped. this rebellious switch got flipped and he had a sudden decline in his grades. And obviously his behavior changed dramatically. As parents were very concerned. It's not like they didn't notice it, right?

You notice this going on. You're going to get the report cards and you're going to see when your son comes home with some kind of Nazi themed tattoo on his head or forehead. I guess their cousin Nelson dropped out of high school and essentially was homeless, lived from place to place. So Benny's on the streets? Benny's on the streets. His parents were separated.

And I don't know that he really had much of a relationship with them, certainly later on, right, around the time that all of this is going on, he didn't have much of a relationship. He attended Whitehall High School, then switched to Parkland High School. for a few months until around the end of May 1994 when he dropped out. Nelson visited his grandpa each week to help him with construction projects. He didn't have the same severe type of behavior problems as Brian and David, but he did have a criminal record. He was convicted of theft,

burglary, receiving stolen property and trespassing. It's not a good start in an early age. No, and I think it's not. not it's not a good trio right i mean look at the behavior of these three kids two of them brothers you know nelson's a cousin they don't seem to be good for each other well they're just supporting each other's bad habits yeah exactly right the three liked to hang out at the white hall mall they went to the mall three to four nights a week and it was reported that they didn't go to the mall and cause a bunch of problems like some kids do they even broke up a fight inside the

the mall once. The only incident they really ever had at the mall was when they were asked to leave after throwing pennies at people they thought were Jewish. Throwing pennies. Okay, you shouldn't throw pennies at people. Right. I think the bigger part of that equation is obviously the anti-Semitic portion. Sure. Yeah. Not only are they throwing pennies at people, which you shouldn't do, but they're throwing these pennies at people that they specifically believe to be Jewish. Right. not hard to figure out why if you're into the neo-Nazi or the Nazi mentality. Mentality. Yeah. Thank you. That's the word I was thinking of. Could you imagine being in a mall being pinged by a coin in your head? I know what you would do. I was going to say,

I can imagine it. I can also imagine what I would do to the person who's throwing pennies at me. It's not going to go down well at all. Not at all. They also worked at Wendy's. And some people said that these were kids that could be very polite. Brian was reported to be a good employee at Wendy's. So you have a lot of dichotomies here, right? You have these kids with the face tattoos. I don't know why Wendy's is hiring people with these type of tattoos on their face. Maybe this was before the tattoos.

Before they had the Nazi tattoos. But you have kids that some people had interactions with that were very, good, right? He's at Wendy's. He's a good employee. Well, okay, two nights later, he's at the Whitehall Mall throwing pennies at people that he believes to be Jewish. Yeah. It just doesn't seem to add up. And I mentioned it that Brenda and Dennis were extremely concerned about their children's behavior. As any good parent would be, Brenda even tried to get counseling for her and Dennis to help them figure out how to manage their children's behavior. Man, that's some serious counseling you're going to need.

Yeah, for what they're into. Yeah. I mean, look, when you raised teenagers, as you and I know, and a lot of our listeners know, it's not easy. It's not. And just to tackle those everyday problems and issues throughout those years can be very trying. But now you add this layer in, this is a whole other layer. Yeah.

Right? This is out of control kind of stuff. This is something that you and I never. experienced, right? We never had a child come home with a Nazi tattoo on their forehead or or who decided to join a neo-Nazi group or, you know, anything like that. So I think it's safe to say that at a certain point with all of these problems that Dennis and Brenda had to deal with with their children, it got to a point where Gibbs, they just didn't know what else to do. Right. they were at a loss. You try, you try, you try. Nothing works. Let's say the behavior continues to get

worse. Okay, to a certain point, what else can you do? Yeah, I mean, either got to tell them to leave the house if you can't control them in that environment anymore. I mean, I had friends that were always shipped off, not for, not because they were into this, just because they were bad kids and they were shipped off the military school. That was always the threat. Yeah. Back in the 80s. It was. The 80s and 90s. I will send you to military school. Exactly. Came close a few times. Oh, I imagine you did.

I'm surprised you actually didn't make it, to be honest with you. Now, what Brenda and Dennis tried to do was create stricter rules. So they threw out any neo-Nazi literature they found. They even sold the boy's car at one point as punishment, but this didn't work. This only made Brian and David more angry. You know, you're in a very hostile environment. And this is your kids and this is inside your home. But like I said, at a certain point, Gibbs, you know, they had to have been the loss. What do you do? Well, their decision was to create stricter rules. And I think a lot of parents would say,

okay, that seems reasonable. I would do that too. I'm trying to rein these kids in. It didn't work with David and Brian, I think what it did for them was push them even further away. I'm going to get into this stuff even more. I'm going to rebel even more. Sure, I'm going to show you who's in charge. Yeah. The police were called to the Freeman home at least five times once the brothers took Brenda hostage and police had to get them to release her.

Wow. So, I mean, I think we're getting into the true extent, right, of how bad things were. at one point Brian attempted to strangle his dad Dennis. Brian also pinned Brenda to the floor and threatened to kill her with a hatchet. But she refused to press charges and instead tried to get them counseling. And again, this goes back to what decisions you're going to make as a parent. Yeah, it's a tough one. I mean, you can sit here and say, oh, man, I don't know what she should have just pressed charges.

But until you're in that, you know, situation with the kids. kids that you gave birth to, that you raised, you don't know what you would do. Well, let me ask you this question. How many parents do you think want to press charges on their own children? Not many. Not many. Now, these are pretty extreme acts of violence. These are pretty, in my mind, these are pretty dire scenarios, situations.

But when you decided to take away all their materials, you took away their car, what happened? They went to extremes. you. So what do you think is going to happen if you press charges? Are they going to all of a sudden say, oh, gee, mom, I should have never did that. I'm sorry. Let's hug it out and, you know, let's make some popcorn and sit around and watch a movie tonight. I'm sure the parents are thinking, man, if we press charges, it's going to get even worse. That could have been part of their reasoning. I think, though, in my mind, it was really more about just not being able to press charges on their side. Sure. I really think that's what they were trying to have.

help them. Yeah. They were trying to kind of love them back into doing the right thing. It just, it just wasn't working. It's a little bit of parental guilt, right? Could be some of that too. If I would have done a better job raising my kids, they would have not have turned out this way. And Brian had previously been hospitalized twice for mental illness. David had been to treatment for drug abuse and he'd been to Jubey a few times. They both had made death threats against their parents. I mean, I just can't imagine Gibbs being in this situation as a parent. I just can't. Brenda called the Pennsylvania Human Relations Commission for help.

They referred her to Barry Morrison, regional director of the Anti-Defamation League in Philadelphia. Basically, he used his conversations with Brenda to gather information on white supremacist activities in the area. And he quickly realized that Brenda needed more help than he could. give, which I think is kind of an understatement. Yeah, but realize that this was a pretty big deal. Yeah. Morrison later told the Washington Post, quote, it was clear to me, she was living in very oppressive condition. Brenda told him that David had drug and alcohol problems and that

Brian was violent. She explained how they had both attacked her and her husband in the past. Morrison said that Brenda seemed pretty calm on the phone. And, you know, he didn't. take it from the way that she was speaking as though she felt like there was an imminent threat. She was in like an immediate danger. No sense of urgency. So he gave her the Allentown PD community relations officers contact info. Brenda also joined Tough Love, a support group for parents that needed help with raising difficult children.

And she had joined it in the past, I think sometime 1992, 1993, but at one point stopped attending. So, you know, she got back into this group. I mean, you're going to need some support. Well, sure are. I mean, tough love, yeah, kind of tough love you need to do here is basically say, get out my house. Until you can change your ways, get out of my house and don't come back. And I don't know if there's too many parents that can actually do something like that.

That's what I was going to say. I mean, you know, you can look at this like, you know, sometimes we talk about drug addiction or, you know, I've heard a lot of people say, you know, at a certain point, you just have to say, that's it. Yeah. I can't do this anymore. I can't enable you. You're going to have to go on your own and figure this out. That's not an easy thing to do for a parent in any situation. It might be the right thing to do in some of these situations, but it can't be.

easy. In December 1994, Dennis's sister Valerie moved out of the house. She had been living with the Freeman's for a few years. And it was after a confrontation with David. Basically, Dennis told her, you need to leave. For your own safety, you need to leave this house. I mean, that is really saying something when your sister, the aunt to these two boys, is not safe in your home. Because of them. Well, not surprised since the parents aren't even safe. Well, that's true. In late January 1995, Brenda called Morrison again.

This time she was very upset and much different, I think, than their earlier conversation. This time she was giving off the vibe Gibbs that something bad was about to happen. According to the Washington Post, in February 1995, during a visit with Dennis, Valerie asked her nephew Eric, how he was getting along with his brothers. And he responded, you never know when you're going to die. So we really haven't talked all that much about Eric up to this point. We spent more time talking about what the parents were dealing with, but Eric was dealing with a lot as well. I mean, I think from this comment, you can definitely get the sense that he was scared of his brothers. And there's no doubt,

tensions were high in the Freeman household. I think all three of them, Gibbs, Brenda, Dennis, and Eric were living in fear. And it was just a few nights later that it went from this constant tension and fear to extreme violence. Because on February 26th, 1995, Brian, David, and Nelson, bludgeoned Brenda Dennis and Eric to death. Detectives called it one of the most violent crime scenes they'd encounter. Their brutal murder has been described as every parent's nightmare. So late on the night of the 26th, there was a bad argument in the family after Brenda repeatedly asked Nelson to leave the house. So I guess the kids got there past curfew. Brenda threatened to lock them out of the house. Brian Freeman grabbed his mother as she came downstairs.

he stuffed a pair of shorts in her mouth and then stabbed her multiple times. And Brian would later say, well, I grabbed the knife at some point during the argument and I ended up stabbing her. It just kind of all came out in that one second. I didn't think about it. It just happened. It just happened. That you would just all of a sudden stab your mother.

Yeah. At one point, Brenda got a hold of the knife, but Brian took it away from her and stabbed her. and stabbed her again. According to Brian, David and Nelson ran away and left him alone with his mom. And he said, we were just sitting there on the floor, staring at each other. Then David Freeman and Nelson went upstairs and beat Dennis with an aluminum baseball bat and a metal exercise bar while he slept. Nelson then attacked Eric Freeman, who at this point was only 11 years old. Yeah, just a kid, man. as he slept, he murdered him with a three-foot pick-axe handle. Now, Brian claims another person came down and killed Brenda with the pickax handle.

So obviously by another person, he means either his brother or Nelson. Yeah. I don't think he ever came out and said who it was. And then after that, the trio stole a shotgun from the house and they fled in Brenda's car. And it was the next day, February 27th, when dead. Menace's sister Valerie entered the home and found the bodies. How shocking for her, but I'm certain she was glad she got out. Yeah, no doubt shocking to find your brother dead, your sister-in-law, your nephew.

But I agree with you. I think after that shock and grief, there had to have been at some point something in the back of her mind that said, I'm lucky I got out of here when I did. She called the police, and when they got there, they found all the murder weapons at the crime scene. The axe handle was propped up against a stairway railing. The baseball bat was in the kitchen and the metal pipe was in the laundry room. But the two Freeman brothers and Nelson Birdwell were nowhere to be found. So a manhunt was started to find them later that day.

Morrison called Brenda to check on her private. with her children. She didn't answer. And he later learned about the tragedy that had occurred in the home. And I think he had the foresight to see that something could escalate to this. And it's a tragedy that it did. Yeah, I agree. I think, you know, they had multiple conversations, right? I think in the beginning, he probably wasn't all that worried. But by the last conversation they had, you really got the sense that Brenda was expressing a lot of fear. But again, Gibbs, what was he supposed to do? Yeah, there's not much he can do, but just be there to give advice.

Right. And I'm sure he did. Yeah. So on the 27th, around 7.40 a.m. Brian, David, and Nelson first stopped at the Ohio Truck World Motor Inn in Hubbard, Ohio and asked for a room. Jesse Capiz, the front desk worker. said she didn't feel scared, but she later said that, yeah, she felt a little nervous. She told them

that they'd have to wait for a vacancy. She said they seemed calm, not acting too strangely. While they were waiting, a trucker spotted them and gave a tip to the police. At 845, they checked in. They gave Jesse their real names and address. Jesse asked about their tattoos. And Brian said, they decided to get them randomly one day without thinking it through. I guess that's what you're going to have to say to people, Gibbs, to explain why you have these very strange tattoos on your face. Yeah. Or you're going to have to tell them that you're a white supremacist, neo-Nazi slash skinhead.

One of the other, you only have a couple of choices. Now, one thing that Jesse did think was very strange. was that they had trouble identifying what kind of car they were driving. Brian had to go out to the parking lot to get the license plate number. And Brian paid for the room in $5 bills. A little strange. It was a little strange. Not as strange as paying in ones as you do.

Do it all the time, man. At most places we go to. Those magic mic days, I still have all those singles, man. I got to get rid of them somehow. What you mean? Like last weekend? Hey, hey, hey, hey, you know, those. senior buildings have a need and I still perform.

And that's where you get all your spending money. Exactly. So the trio remained at the motel until 7.45 p.m. And they made a couple of calls during the day. So this tip that police received from the trucker who had obviously heard about their description, the fact that they were wanted probably on the radio or his CB and the phone calls they placed from the motel. were the clues that police needed to track them down. At 4 a.m. on Tuesday, they checked into the

holiday inn in Midland. Now, this time, they did frighten the hotel staff. I think just from the tattoos, the general manager, Scott Warner later said that he didn't feel good about it. He felt on edge. They paid a $225 deposit Gibbs in quarters, dollar bills, and $5 bills. Well, that's a little suspicious. Yeah. I mean, that's like a kid scrounging

for ice cream money. Yeah. And plops down a bunch of pennies and, and nickels. This is $225 in currency that most people don't pay for hotel rooms in. Yeah, almost like you robbed a vending machine.

Yeah. Or you just broke open your piggy bank and here's what I got. Yeah. So I think all of this, the tattoo. who's the currency that they used, it made this guy suspicious. He called the manager and the police on February 28th.

Police searched their hotel room, but they let them go. They didn't find anything suspicious inside. The Ohio police hadn't yet learned that these three kids were on the run for killing their parents because Lehigh County didn't release the arrest warrants. until Tuesday afternoon. So on Tuesday morning, Ohio police didn't know anything about it. So the police were just called out because they looked suspicious and acted suspicious, paid in a suspicious manner.

And, you know, the other thing the clerk said was that he saw them laughing in the hallway. He said these three kids were happy. It sure didn't seem like they were kids who had just murdered three people. Well, and those people being their parents and their brother. Yeah, family members. They stayed in the hotel until Tuesday afternoon. After they left the holiday in, they drove about 10 miles to the home of brothers, August and Frank Hesse. The Hesse's were skinheads.

And the three stayed at their house. And I guess they went ice fishing because that's what you do. After you kill your family, you want to go out on the ice for a little bit and just do little fishing. when you're on the run. Ronald Hessey, their father, has claimed that they were never there. They never stayed at his house. But at 4 p.m., police spotted Brenda's Black Pontiac at the Hessey home. But none of the suspects were there. Brian, David, Nelson, August, and one other individual drove to a house under construction owned by Ronald Hessey. Three days after the murders on March 1st, 1995, Brian, David, and Nelson were captured and arrested in Hope, Michigan.

They were hiding out in Robert Hessie's new unfinished home. Police managed to trace the call they made it to motel. And they also spotted them on some security footage at a grocery store where they stole a hunting knife, a razor, and some pocket knives. Brian and David were charged with three counts of murder. But at the time, Nelson was only charged with hindering their capture. Brian and David were held without bail pending extradition to Pennsylvania. Nelson was held as a parole violator with a $150,000 bond.

He couldn't be released without approval from his probation officer. In a court hearing in Michigan, Judge Anthony Rapp ruled that they should all go to trial. He scheduled an arraignment for June 22nd, but set no trial day. The Michigan State Police recorded their interviews on March 1st. According to David, he, Brian and Nelson came home late on the 26th. His parents warned them that they'd be locked out for being out past curfew. So again, Gibbs, I think we're going back to Dennis and Brenda having all kinds of trouble. right controlling these kids and making the decision that they were going to tighten everything down get much stricter tough love so we've got a curfew and you need to be home by a certain time and if you're

not there's going to be consequences yeah and these kids didn't like that they didn't like the rules they didn't like the consequences david said that his mother came downstairs Brian took out a and stabbed her. David then went upstairs and beat his dad with the bat, cut his throat, and smashed his brother's face in. So violent, man. Oh, incredibly violent. But I think what's important here is you have, you know, David and Brian committing the murders. Initially, Nelson was considered kind of like a bystander, not involved in committing any of the murders, only helping them escape. Now that's later going to be proven false. Nelson told the police that Brian started the killings when he stabbed Brenda. He said that Brian snapped when his mother continued nagging him.

Gibbs, the murders of the Freemans were shocking to their community. Dennis was 54. Brenda 48. And we already said, Eric was only 11 years old. You know, the strange thing, though, is most of the relatives really weren't surprised by this. No, I think they knew enough about what had been going on inside that household, how these kids were acting. They were going down a bad path. There's no doubt about it. Newsweek reported that Nelson Birdwell Sr., their grandfather said, Brian and David, quote, looked like monsters since they shaved their heads. And I think like a lot of people, he initially thought Nelson wasn't involved in the murders. He told the morning call newspaper, he's innocent, he's just like a little boy. Well, you also had your name,

Grandpa. That's true. Yeah. But after these guys were captured, another tragedy occurred because their murders inspired a copycat murder. A 17-year-old named Jeffrey Hooworth used his father's rifle to shoot and kill his own parents. And he wrote Gibbs in his personal notebook, those kids in Salisbury, they were cool. They killed their parents. I would be rough if I did that. This is what he's thinking. This is, this is his thought. And we've seen this happen in, you know, some other murders and some school shootings where, you know, kids have viewed it as for the lack of a better word, cool. Yeah. Like these kids were cool doing what they did. The one's going to mess with me now. And they wanted to be like them. Yeah. It's hard to believe,

but it's true. Jeffrey was arrested three days after the Freeman brothers on March 4th and was ultimately declared not guilty by reason of insanity. And at the time, the district attorney said, there was no connection between the murder committed by Jeffrey Hoeworth and the murders committed by David and Brian. I don't know how you can say that. If you wrote that in his journal, I mean, there's some form of connection. Well, there was a connection. I think at the time he said there was, he came out and said there were no connections, but obviously there is a connection if this murder was inspired by the other murders. On the same, December 7, 1995, Brian Freeman pleaded guilty to killing his mother and was sentenced to life without

parole. Brian has said that he pleaded guilty in order to avoid the death penalty. On December 15th, 1995, David Freeman pleaded guilty to killing Dennis and was sentenced to life in prison without parole. Nelson didn't plead guilty. He was going to take his chance at trial on April 26, 19th. 1996 at a court hearing, the coroner Dr. Mahalakis testified about the beatings. He said Dennis's skull was broken open with a four inch gash and part of his brain was exposed. That's a serious beating. Yeah, that's vicious. He said that his blood covered the wall. But Dr. Mahalikis was unable to determine if more than one person beat Dennis Freeman. Brenda was beaten and stabbed and naked from the waist down.

He said that Eric's head was smashed in. Nelson's lawyer characterized him as a spectator and said that he didn't commit any of the murders. He was just too afraid to leave the scene once everything started happening. At the hearing, a video of the crime scene was shown. And apparently Nelson cried while watching the tape. Nelson and his lawyers claimed he was innocent. From everything he told the police,

you would think that he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. And these things kind of happened around them. Now, he didn't do anything to stop them. And he did obviously run away with the brothers, but he claimed he never killed anyone. Well, I mean, you could say that he felt intimidated by the brothers, that if he didn't go along with them,

that they might kill him. Yeah, I think he even has made that claim. Some of his family members have claimed that as well. Joshua Worth, a school friend and the local paper boy testified that Brian told him right before the murders, how his parents sold his car. Brian said if he'd been awake at the time, he would have killed his parents. David Shearer, one of Brian's acquaintances, testified that Brian had told him a few times. He had him. He had him. He had. hated his parents and wanted to kill them. Giving you all the motive that you could possibly need? Yeah, I think he had plenty of motive.

And it was well demonstrated. The jury acquitted Nelson of killing Brenda and Eric, but he was convicted for killing Dennis. After DNA testing, identified Dennis's blood on his t-shirt on July 18, 1996. After his trial ended, Nelson was sentenced to life in prison without parole. for killing Dennis Freeman. Not one of the three boys has ever confessed to killing Eric.

Well, they're going to have to live with that. They knew what they did. Well, somebody smashed his head. Sure did. And you just wonder if it was one of his brothers. Okay, they were upset with their mom and dad. And they killed him. But would they have a hard time admitting that they smashed in the head of their little 11-year-old brother, I can see that happening. Yeah. Where they would be able to say, yeah, I killed my mom. I killed my dad. But I can't admit to committing this unbelievable violence against my younger brother.

I just, I just can't do it. All right. Gibbs, so everybody is in prison, right? Life with no parole. Several years went by it without really any updates on the brides. on the brothers or Nelson until July 7th, 2010. That was when David filed a pro se PCRA petition. His petition was ultimately dismissed in February 2015.

Well, pro se, what's all I have to say? Pro se. I know you're not a fan. I'm not. You're not a fan. But they had something on their side. In 2012, things changed drastically for the brothers and thousands of of other juvenile offenders.

A U.S. Supreme Court decision in 2012 ruled that mandatory life sentences for juveniles violated their constitutional protection against cruel and unusual punishment. Additionally, they ruled that the decision must be applied retroactively by all states. So that included the Freeman Brothers case. Brian and David's attorneys Sean Pohl and Charles Banta respectively appealed to have them resentenced under this new ruling. And ultimately, a Pennsylvania Superior Court panel ruled that the Freeman's must be resentenced in Lehigh County based on the Supreme Court decision from 2012. Brian's request for a new sentence was granted in March 2016. And David,

a month later in April. As of January 2019, Lehigh County was deciding if prosecutors could seek a life sentence again for the brothers. Attorney Carl Schwartz was leading Brian's case. He claims that Brian has shown remorse and is, quote,

redeemable under the requirements of law. The DA's office filed a motion asking for life without parole. Schwartz asked the judge, to reject that motion since one of the prosecution's mental health experts said that Brian could be rehabilitated. But a second mental health expert said Brian remained incorrigible. His defense attorney argued the disparity in opinion should disqualify a life sentence. While in prison, Brian and David have both told their aunt Sandy, Brenda's sister,

that they wish they could change the past. They regret what they do. did. She told the morning call paper, the boys are not what they were back then. They both regret what they did and they wish they had never done it. In 2015, Brian told WMFZ news. It's just sad, sad that so many people had to pay for something stupid no matter how long it's been. Even after 20 years, it still haunts me and haunts a lot of people. It's sad. Oh yeah. It's. It's, It's really sad. It's sad all the way around. Yeah.

You know, their parents are not here anymore. Eric never got to see his 12th birthday because of their actions. And Gibbs, I don't know how you live with that. I really don't. Growing up, right, 20 years later, knowing that you killed your mom, you killed your dad, you killed your brother. I just don't know how you face that day in and day out. It would be tough, you know?

I mean, you can become somebody different. You probably can become better than you were, but you still did what you did. Yeah, you did. Brian is at the state prison and Cole Township. He was baptized as a Jehovah's Witness while in prison. David is at the state prison near Frackville, Pennsylvania. Brian David and Nelson are all in their 40s. Since 2019, though, there really have been no updates on.

their sentencing. I'm thinking COVID probably has quite a bit to do with that. I think the thought is Gibbs that they will likely receive the same sentence, life in prison without parole, although I'm sure they're hoping for a different result. No doubt, the acts they committed in 1995 were horrific. And I think the majority of people believe they deserve their time in prison. And I think that's what's interesting about the 2012 Supreme Court decision, right? It only says that mandatory life sentences for juveniles constitute cruel and unusual punishment. It doesn't mean that you can't give out a life sentence with no parole. Right.

It just means it can't be, you know, one of those mandatory sentences. So I think that's why most people think they're probably going to get the same sentence. because the evidence is the same. Yeah. The jury convicted them. The jury recommended the sentence. Why now should it be any different? I agree.

In 2020, the YouTube channel stories from the penitentiary received a letter from Nelson claiming his innocence. I guess this entire channel Gibbs is dedicated to writing letters to inmates. Now, it's not 100% certain that the letter actually can. came from Nelson. But if it is, he wrote, I received a letter from you Thursday. I'm curious to know why you decided to write me. I'm pretty sure I don't know you. Do you know of my case? Did you just pick me at random? My first reaction or thought when I came to prison, boy, that was a long time ago. I've been locked up over 25 years. But I do remember saying, boy, I really fucked up. I put up.

myself here. I can't blame anyone else. That's a true statement. You did put yourself there. He went on to say the media is quite biased. They are so one-sided and usually wrong. Sometimes I wonder if I had different parents. Would I be in this prison? I always thought what I did didn't matter. I know now there's a bigger picture to life. Still to this day, I hurt people with what I did 25 years ago. He also said that he trained service dogs at the prison. He works out and he plays guitar. Well, I think everybody in prison works out. How much to do in prison besides working out. Well, and it's also in your best interest to be physically fit. Yeah, you tend to want to be in their best shape possible. Yeah. If you want to survive. I do think it's interesting that, you know,

he claims he's innocent, but says that, you know, I messed up. I put myself here. I put myself here. I can't blame anyone else. Seems to kind of be at odds a little bit, but I don't have all the details of Nelson's trial, but I do know that, you know, one of the, and we said it, one of the big pieces of evidence was Dennis's blood found on Nelson's shirt. So he had to be in the room, being that close contact to get Dennis's blood on them. Yeah, yeah, there's no doubt about that. I think what is in question is, you know, did he strike any of the blows that killed Dennis?

Or was he close enough that when the blows were struck, the blood, you know, was spattered onto his shirt? I don't know the answer. And obviously, you and I weren't privy to every single piece of evidence in the trial. I think, you know, as we wrap up this case, Gibbs, there's a lot going on here. And like I said up front, this is a scary type of case. It also represents the importance of parents being aware of what their kids are involved in. I think Brenda and Dennis were aware. I think they tried very hard to help their children.

But for whatever reason, Brian and David had some very deep rooted issues that it just seems like their parents couldn't help them with. You know, they had extreme anger. There were some mental health issues. And they obviously got to the point where they just rejected all manner of authority. And it culminated in a tragedy that ended the lives of their parents and their little brother Eric. I think the big question that comes out of this case for me is what could the Freemans have done to help Brian and David? We talked about what would have been a very tough. decision. You love your kids. Sure you do. You do anything for them. At some point,

it seems like they started practicing a little tough love, laying down the law, making things much, much stricter. But there was a line that they weren't willing to cross. And I think that line was pressing charges when some of these extremely violent acts occurred. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying I think that's that's the line. It seems to me that they weren't willing to cross. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I can sit here and say, here's what they should have done, right or wrong, but I mean, I'm just, you know, Monday morning quarterbacking, right? Yeah, I think you can say, you can ask the question. Yeah. If they had done that, would it have saved their lives? Would it have saved Eric's life? Or would Brian and David have gone to, you know, some type of

a juvenile facility for some short period of time, gotten out, and I think you even made the comment, then even more anger. Yeah. And ultimately killed them anyway. It's a what if type question. Either it was going to escalate when it did or maybe later, but it was going to escalate potentially. I did find it interesting.

You know, some of the papers after the murders theorize that because the family, especially Dennis and Brenda. were so devout, so religious that the boys found really the most opposite, extreme thing they could get into to show their rebellion. I can't think of anything more opposite than being a Jehovah's Witness than being a neo-Nazi skinhead white supremacist. Yeah, I mean, they went to the other spectrum. Right.

the opposite end of the spectrum. The morning call newspaper said, Jehovah's witnesses are tolerant of racial and cultural differences. Members see the world is divided into two categories, good and evil. Well, there you go. Couldn't be any more further on the spectrum, like you said, than good and evil. Yeah, you've got this one group who is tolerant of racial and cultural differences.

their kids join this other group whose members believe there shouldn't be any race mingling whatsoever. Yeah. It gives just a tough case. And you think about these parents and the position that they were in. And I think a lot of people listening can put themselves in that position. Not that it's ever happened to them, but they can, you know, ask some of the questions. What would I do if my child or, my children started acting like this. Would I be able to draw a line in the sand and say, hey, if you're going to cross this line, I'm going to press charges or I'm going to do this or I'm going to do that or would they try to heap on the love and try to solve it with therapy? And I don't know. Yeah, it's just tough. And is either one going to do the job? There's no guarantee. No. I mean, you raise your kids hoping that. You just get them through school, that they don't end up, you know, getting in big trouble and get into the drugs and things like that. And you just feel good when you get them graduated. You're like, ooh, man, you know. And to have to worry about all this other stuff, will they hang out with the wrong people that teach them beliefs that are false, lead them down the wrong path? And you're not able to turn them from that path. no matter what you do.

You have to feel lost. Yeah. Yeah, I absolutely agree. But that's it for the Freeman family murders. Gibbs, we've got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Yes, hear them. Hi, my name is Audra, and I'm a long-time listener.

I think I've gone through all of your, with both podcasts, all of your episodes. And I just wanted to recommend a case to you guys. It's actually about my friends, grandma's, Ex-husband's cousin's wife. That's a mouthful. Any which way. Her name was, I believe, Debbie Shonahan. She was from Western Iowa, and she was like a battered woman and ended up, like, killing her husband at the time.

And it was like a whole story. So if you guys want to look that up, I know that would be really interesting to hear you guys talk about. and I guess that's it. So you guys just keep your own time ticking. Thank you, bye-bye. Hi, this is JK. It's Audrey again, and her name was not Debbie. I think I said Debbie.

Her name was Dixie Shanahan or Seanahan, any which way. It's a really interesting case, and I would love to hear you guys cover it. So again, you know, keep your own time ticking, and thank you. Bye. I think she also knew Kevin Bacon. Well, at least in a six degrees kind of separation way. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It's always interesting when people call back. I try to cobble them together because if not, then one, either one of the other doesn't make sense on its own. So you kind of have to put them both together. Tie them in together. Hi, Mike and Gibby. This is Brittany.

I've listened to you guys since, like, 2019. I absolutely love you guys. Your guys are amazing. I told my sister. And I was like, you've got to listen to Mike and Gibby. They're amazing. I recently went back to work last week from attorney leave. I had a little boy and you guys completely got me through that entire week listening to the podcast, especially that first awful day.

I totally sobbed dropping my little boy off. It was excruciating. But yeah, I just want to call. Say thank you. You guys are amazing. And stay safe. Bye. when the kids were born.

And that for me was very hard to go back. Sure. I know for my wife, it was excruciating because she got to spend a lot more time at home. Oh, yeah. And to have to go back to work for her, that was just brutal. But congratulations. Yeah, absolutely. Hey, Mike and Gibby.

This is Melly from Arkansas. And I wanted to tell you, I've found you guys late in 2020. And I've been listening and catching up and loving the show. Just join Patreon so I could get more content. because I'm almost all caught up now. I listen with my dog, Hudson. He loves it. Anyway, we would love to hear you do a sad story out of the state of Arkansas on Casey Woody.

She was killed by an internet predator, David Fuller. So I would be really interested to hear you guys do this story. I don't think you've done it yet. I am team both. But if Rex West shows up, I would be totally team Rex West for sure. So take care. Keep your own time ticking. Never know when Rex West will show up.

No, but if he does, he's got a lot. a lot of fan. He's got some fans. He's got some fan. That's the case we'll definitely check into. Hi, Hudson. Hi, I'm Justin. I lived in Wollongong, and I knew Frank O'Call, and it was a pretty scary town around here. Certainly shook up most of the town. And then on the weekend, I had Linda being trouble was visiting one next door neighbor. I thought she'd left town, but anyhow, yeah, great episode. Thank you very much. some memories. I'm glad that time. That was a scary time. We had a serial rapist and those killings going on. And yeah, dark days indeed. Thank you very much.

Wow. A lot of connections there. Oh, that's for sure. New Frank Arkell, new Belinda Van Crevel. Definitely some scary times. Yeah, no doubt it is for the people who live in some of these towns. I mean, you and I are covering the cases, but we weren't there to experience, you know, what the fear was like. And so that's why I do like to receive the voicemails and emails from people that, you know, kind of have a little bit more connection to the case. I always get them after the episode, but I still, I still like it because it helps shed even more light on what it was really like.

Yeah, they're paying a pretty good picture sometimes of what it was, like you said. what it was really like and how the city's set up. I remember on that case, I saw some emails come across about, you know, what the town looked like and how that store that he, the one gentleman ran, what that store was like. The one that we said closed at five. Yeah. Yeah. All right.

We had one thing in the mailbag. Our good buddy, Lottie, sent us an Easter basket full of goodies. Well, thank you, Lottie. So we appreciate that. Always do from Lottie. All right, buddy. That is it for another episode. of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.