True Crime All The Time - The Hi-Fi Murders

Episode Date: April 22, 2019

On April 22, 1974, five people were taken hostage at a Hi-Fi shop in Ogden, Utah, What ensued was one of the worst crimes to ever occur around that area. Hostages were tortured, some made to drink Drano, some were shot and some died. But no one was left unscathed.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss this horrific crime. The perpetrators turned out to be airmen at the local Air Force base. But how many were involved and just exactly what was the motive behind the crimes? There was an opportunity to take everything they wanted and leave. But this group chose to be sadistic to their hostages. They wanted to kill.You can help support the show by going to patreon.com/truecrimallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise and donation informationSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

and welcome to episode 127 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson, Gibby, how are you? Man, I'm good. All right, man. Yeah. When you don't add the second man, I'm just going to start adding it because I think it's a good omen. It's a good sign.

Okay, man. But I'm glad to hear it. I know you've had a rough couple of weeks. You and I haven't talked as much as we normally do. just been very busy. Works, works, been consuming a good part of my mental capacity.

Yeah. And for me, it has not because my work is now podcasting. But I did have a great week. Which is awesome. Yeah, I had a really good week and also completed my taxes. Which is good.

Yeah. I did too. I think on time. I probably, IRS probably gave that look like a lot of people did when they watched the first episode of Games of Thrones this week. So probably that. Ah,

Oh, that shock and all. Shock and all. Yeah. Give me turn his taxes in. I actually haven't watched it yet. I'm saving it up. So don't spoil it. No spoilers.

All right. We have got a jam-packed episode. Or packed jam? We're packed jammed, as you would say. Let's go ahead and start with our new Patreon supporter shoutouts. We had Lee's Rosenland. Hey, Lee's. Autumn Vincent.

Hey, Autumn. Claudette Gribben. Hey, thank you. Oh, Gribbon. Natalie. which is Natalie. Augusta Burnison. Ooh, Burnison. Heather Perry. Hey, thanks. Steve Perry's daughter.

Toby Anderson. Hey, Toby. You think that's Toby Flinderson? I do. Samantha. Samantha. Teresa Kay. Just, Teresa. She's okay. Katie Warner. Hey, Katie. Suzette Eakes jumped out at our highest level. Ekes, like she's scared? Like, eeks? Like, you know.

It's not spelled that way. Okay. And I probably didn't even say it. correctly. Jody Searle. Sorrell? Surrell. You said Sorrel. And then you added an age to it and said Sheryl. I'm just covering all bases. And somehow, one of yours will be correct. And it's not, it's not spelled like that at all, but I'll get an email and it's like, oh my gosh, somehow, Gibby got it. Nobody's ever said it correctly before. Yeah, magical. Emma Harrington. Hey, Emma. Genesis Joaquin. Ooh. That's a good name. Genesis Joaquin.

That's very cool. Yeah. Susan. Hey, Susan. Esther. Esther. Megan Kropsinski. Kopsinski.

Shantel Smith jumped out of our highest level. Hey, Chantel. Sandy Carey's. What's she carrying, man? I don't know. Okay. Spell with a K though. Oh, well, it's different.

Morgan Denson jumped out of our highest level. Hey, Morgan. Andrea Press. Hey, Andrea. Megan Gomez. Gomez. And Kimberly Andres. Really?

out at our highest level. Well, thanks, Kimberly. So much appreciation for the new Patreon support. And then if we go back into the vault, Gibbs. How far are we going back? Let's go back as far as we possibly can. Okay. This week, we selected Allison Foreman Rickert.

AFR, thank you. Bitten with us a long time, big time supporter of the show. Yeah. We appreciate that type of support, the new support, the continued support. It really goes a long way. It means a lot to tutu was. It does. And then we had some great.

PayPal support as well. Geraldine Jeline. Hey, Jaila Green. Hey, thanks, Shaila. Susan Venter. Oh, Susan. And Layla Ruiz.

Well, thanks, Leila. Gave a sizable donation. Appreciate that a lot. And we do. We appreciate our PayPal support as well. All right, so at this time, there is a T-Cat Unsolved episode out.

It's on the Burger Chef murders in Indianapolis. This is a big one. It's one that a lot of people have wanted us to do, you know, four teenage workers abducted from a burger chef restaurant. Yeah. Along with a little bit of cash, but then later on, they're found dead. So we get into, you know, who, what, where? Yeah.

Why? And why is a big one. Don't leave out where. Why? So definitely check that out. Before we get into our TCAT episode, I wanted to talk about something that we're doing next week. I'm going to go ahead and throw it out, give a heads up. Gibby and I have been working on a movie podcast and the first episode of that comes out next

Saturday on our T-Cat Patreon feed. It does. Yeah. We wanted to put it out there first. So if you're not a Patreon supporter, now's a great time to sign up. And you can join at patreon.com slash true crime all the time. But what we decided to do, we're doing the movie Bernie with Jack Black. Because it's based off of a real true crime story.

It is. So we're going to pair it up with a TCAD episode based on that true crime story. Yeah. We thought it would be kind of fun to do. I like it. So I wanted to throw it out ahead of time, though. So number one, people can watch the movie. And number two, if you're not a Patreon supporter, now's a great time to sign up.

All right, Gibbs. Are you ready to get into this episode of, of true crime all the time. I'm ready, man. Let's do this. All right. We are talking about the high-fi murders that occurred in Ogden, Utah, back in 1974. And this is a case we've had a ton of requests for. We really have over the years.

But this felt like the right time to me to do it. And the reason for that is because the day after this episode comes out, the day that many of you are probably listening to it, you know, Monday at work or on your way to work, on your way home from work, is the 45-year anniversary of the murders. 45 years is a long time. It is a long time, man. I was not quite yet a year old when these murders took place, and I'm old. Easy. I know where you're headed with this. Easy. Which makes you older than I am. No, I'm just kidding. But make no mistake about it.

This was a brutal crime. Yeah. That took place. Certainly was. One of the worst ever in Utah. It was described as that then. I think it's still described as that now. It shook the community, you know, back in the 1970s.

And for years afterwards, I mean, there's still people feeling the effects of that crime today. You have the victims that survived the ordeal and their families as well. well as the families, those that lost their lives. It's something you and I talk about from time to time, the web, right, the branches of all the different people that are affected. Oh, yeah. In some way or another by someone's action. Just spiders out, man. It does. Yeah. It really does. Yeah. But this is an important case, too, because they teach this at Quantico at the FBI Academy. That's how big of a case this is. Well, and we'll get into possibly why that is. You're not just the details of the case, which I'm sure are taught, but really in a very specific way of how they went about identifying the perpetrators.

I think that's a big reason why it's taught as well. Sure. No doubt. The details are horrific. But something that I think adds to the outrage is that this crime, these murders, were carried out by Air Force airmen. That in its own is kind of scary. It's kind of like if the police or a fireman or somebody like that did something horrible, right?

Somebody that you kind of put in a light of responsibility that they would just never do something like this. Well, sure. And you gave an oath, right, to protect this country. We are hoping that people in those positions, whether it's the military, law enforcement, emergency personnel, firefighters, whatever, they're out to do good. They're not out killing people. That's what, you know, we'd like for nobody to be out killing people. But I think we're even more shocked when we find out that it's some of these people that

we put in these categories of trust. Sure. So we're going back to April 22nd, 1974 in Ogden, Utah. And Ogden is a city about 40 miles north of Saltwater. Lake City. It's home to Weber State University. It's close to the Wasatch Mountains. The population of Ogden has grown over the years from, it was about 70,000 in 1970. It's about 90,000 today. That whole area has just has really grown. A lot of people from that part of Utah commute to Salt Lake City. Like you said, it's only 40 miles. Yeah, it's not that far. Yeah. But. But,

But what's strange in looking at the census data is that from 1970 to 1990, that city lost over 10% of its population. But then it started to climb again. I couldn't figure out why that was. Because obviously, you're just looking at census data. There's no context, you know, around it. It's just there was a significant drop in population. Yeah.

Over a little bit of a time. And then it started to rise back up again. That's a huge Mormon or Ellis, you know, Latter-day Saint area. So it sure is. So in 1974, there was a music slash stereo business on Washington Boulevard in Ogden called the high-fi shop. It was owned by a man named Brent Richardson. And this is where this unbelievable crime took place. And it's obviously where the incident gets its name from.

So working at the hi-fi shop that day, April 22nd, was 18-year-old Michelle Ansley, as well as 20-year-old Stanley Walker. Michelle had just been hired to work at the shop about a week before. This incident occurred. Like I said, she was 18 years old. She was planning out her life. Just the night before this incident occurred that we're getting ready to talk about, she came home to tell her mother Laura that she was engaged to be married.

That's a pretty exciting news. It is. At that age. Any age, but that age. You know, Michelle was ecstatic. She was looking forward to her future. I think it adds to the sadness, right? That just the day before she's to be murdered,

she's sharing this unbelievably great news with her mother. Hey, mom, I'm engaged. I'm so happy. I'm over the moon. I also think the reasons why both Michelle and Stanley were working that day, they're significant. Michelle was filling in for a coworker and Stanley was filling in for the manager who was out of town. And in light of what we're about ready to talk about, I think you have to sit back and think about the sheer randomness of things. it's something that I think about a lot.

And I'll tell you who probably has thought about the sheer randomness of this is the people they replaced that day. Oh, I guarantee. I guarantee. You know, it's these little small decisions, right, that we make every day that could possibly have huge consequences. And you just said it. You think about the individual who traded shifts with Michelle that day and what that person

has had to probably live with the rest of their life. Oh, yeah. And they didn't do anything wrong. No. But you know that there would be this unbelievable guilt. You know, it's very similar, I think, to some of the stories that you heard after the 9-11 tragedy, where you had an individual that was booked on one of the flights that crashed.

But for whatever reason, Gibbs, they didn't make the flight. Right. And you heard it from these people. Obviously, there was relief that they weren't killed, but there was this massive amount of guilt that I think these people carried around with them and maybe still due to this day. And again, I'm not comparing what we're getting ready to talk about to 9-11. just the the type of switching of shifts versus, you know, booked on the flight, but at the last minute decided not to take it. It's really these little, they're little. We do them every day. Yeah, we've seen it. I mean, if you watch that movie about the Marshall football team.

Oh, yeah. We are Marshall? Yeah, that one. The one with Marshall in the title. Yeah. Yeah. So the same thing happens, right? I mean, they finish the one game. They're going to take the school playing back and for whatever reason somebody needed one of the coaches to go stop by a kid they're trying to recruit and so they switch spots yeah and he's got to live the rest of his life knowing that he's the one that survived and not the other guy hey you look at the uh the flight that killed buddy holly and richie vallens and the big bopper yeah i think if i've got my story correct they had to flip a coin for like the third person. And I think the third person was Richie Valens.

It was between him and some other guy that now I cannot remember. He won the toss and lost his life. It's the same reason you never take the same flight I take. Because I assume something bad is going to happen to you. To your flight? To you. A black cloud just follows you around. That's why I always wear a parachute.

But, you know, Again, I didn't want to get too much into a, you know, off on a tangent. But it is something I think about a lot, right? These little decisions, you know, butterfly effect type things. It's very interesting. Yeah. To think about. You brought the butterfly effect in.

I did. Okay. So on this day, two kids are working at the store as it got closer to closing time. A number of African American males pulled up in vans in front of the store. And I've read reports from the police that they believe there were six men in total that played at least some role in this crime, whether it was stealing and transporting the merchandise all the way to the murders. But only three people have been conclusively linked to this event. So we're going to focus on those three. 21-year-old Dale Selby-Pierre, 19-year-old William Andrews, and 19-year-old Keith Roberts.

Like I said up front, all three of these individuals were airmen at the local Hill Air Force Base. Police would ultimately conclude that Pierre and Andrews were inside the shop, committed the crimes, while Roberts waited outside in the van. And you'll see Pierre's name juxtaposed a bunch of different ways. So I wanted to say this up front. Apparently the guy changed his name Gibbs over 20 some times. Really? Yeah.

I think after he got into prison. Okay. It is very confusing when you're researching this case because you'll see it, Dale Selby Pierre, Pierre del Selby, something, something. It's just like he just took those three names and just kept on moving them around. moving them around. But because of that, I'm probably going to refer to him as either Dale or Pierre. He was born on the island of Trinidad, Tobago, eventually moved to Brooklyn, New York in 1970. Brooklyn. Brooklyn. He joined the Air Force in 1973 and was assigned to Hill Air Force Base as a mechanic for helicopters.

So obviously he had some type of skill, skill to be assigned, you know, as a mechanic to work on these helicopters. But he wasn't there long on the Air Force base before he was suspected of murdering another airman named Edward Jefferson. So these guys definitely knew each other. They had been hanging out together. And then one day Gibbs, Edward Jefferson ended up dead with a. bayonet in his face. Okay. It's not something you hear about a lot.

No. This attack was so vicious that the bayonet was rammed into Jefferson's face with so much force that only the handle could be seen. Now, you've seen some bayonets in your day. I have. You know, normally the blade on a bayonet is fairly long. But some force there. To go all the way through like that.

the authorities knew it was Pierre, but they never could put enough together on him to charge him with the murder. Then you talk about William Andrews. He was born in Virginia. And by everything, you know, I read had a very normal childhood. He two joined the Air Force and ended up at Hill as a mechanic working on helicopters. So obviously this is where these guys met, right? Pierre and Andrews, they're at the same Air Force Base, they're both mechanics. I couldn't find a whole lot on Keith Roberts, most likely because he plays a much smaller role in this than the other two. We're not going to be talking about him as much, but he was definitely at Hill Air Force Base with William and Dale, and I assume that's where they all met. My assumption is that the other

individuals that police believe were involved in this case were at the Air Force base as well. But as far as I know, they've never been able to identify who those individuals were. Yeah. They think it was three others, but I've never seen any names. And obviously, they haven't had enough to put them away. These men are at the store, the hi-fi shop. Dale and William entered the store with guns and confronted Michelle and Stanley. They quickly took them hostage, led them down to the basement and tied them up.

So this essentially allowed this crew free reign, right, to pilfer the store. This is where authorities believed the other three men came in, helped rob the store, took off with a bunch of the stereo equipment. Yeah, took the merchandise. In one of the vans. At some point later, 16-year-old Courtney Nesbitt entered the store. He knew Stanley Walker and had dropped by to thank him for helping him out with some errand. Just wrong place, wrong time.

It's Andrews and Pierre inside the store. They quickly took Courtney hostage. They subdued him. They tied him up. And they took him down, put him in the basement with Michelle and Stanley. So obviously they were in this store for. some period of time. Well, they're probably there for a while. I mean, moving all that merchandise out. Yeah, we'll talk about it later, but they, they stole quite a bit. We'll get into

it. But because they spent so much time in the store, people dropped by. You know, Courtney dropped by. And then Stanley's 43-year-old dad, Orrin, he got worried because his son hadn't come home from work yet. So he went to the store. He walked in and was taken hostage as well. He was tied up, placed down in the basement. So they have four individuals at this point tied up in the basement, but they're still in the store. It's getting later. And by now, Courtney's 53 year old mother Carol was worried about him. She knew he had gone to the store. He had not come home. So she went down to the hi-fi store to see what was going on and she walked into this situation. The two men took her hostage, tied her up, and placed her next to her son in the basement. All right, Gibbs, let's take a quick

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at your own time on your own schedule through secure video and phone sessions, but they even have chat and text options. And if you're not happy with your counselor, you can request a new one at any time for no additional charge. This is a truly affordable option. And true crime all the time, listeners, get 10% off your first month by going to betterhelp.com slash T-Cats. So why not get started today? Go to betterhelp.com.com. slash T-CAT. Just fill out a quick, easy questionnaire and get matched with a counselor you'll love. BetterHelp.com slash T-Cat. So this situation has grown, right, from where it started. They now have five people tied up in the basement. Gibbs, I don't think there's any way that they

could have planned for this. No, I mean, there's a simple robbery that has now escalated into a major problem. Yeah, my thinking is they probably knew that there were two kids working at the store. This is going to be a quick in and out. We're going to take a bunch of stuff. We'll tie them up, take everything and leave. Now, we're going to find out that these guys had more than just robbery on their minds. They were thinking murder from the time that they even entered the store. They were thinking murder from the very beginning.

So they have five hostages in the basement. tied up. What are they going to do with these people? I've already said they had murderous thoughts going into this thing. They made the decision that they were going to use Drano. So one by one, they made the hostages drink this liquid Drano except for young Michelle Ansley. Obviously, they didn't tell them that it was Drano that they were forcing them to drink. But it, it, it, wasn't hard to tell that it was something awful. Yeah, I'm sure you can tell by looking at it, smelling it was going to be something corrosive. Well, yeah, I agree with you there. But as soon as it hit their lips, hit their mouths, you know, reports indicated that it caused massive blisters

right away, peeled away the flesh inside of these people's mouths, damaged their throats, their esophagus, basically burned everything it came into contact with. And this is horrific. You know, we set it up front. It's the details of this crime are brutal. The pair tried to put duct tape over the victim's mouths to keep the, the draino inside, right? They didn't want them spitting it out. But the blisters around their mouths form so quickly, the duct tape,

wouldn't stick. I mean, think about that. Duck tape will stick to anything. That just tells you how bad these people suffer. Sure. It's straight out of a horror movie. I mean, to me, it's something like you would see in one of those jigsaw movies. Yeah. You know, imagine Gibbs seeing the person next to you go through this and realizing that you're next. How horrific that would be, but awesome. so that you're watching your loved one go through it. Yeah, because obviously, as we've said, there is a mother and a son, there's a father and a son in this basement.

Orrin Walker, Stanley's father, he was the last person to receive the liquid by that time. He knew. He knew what had happened to the four people before him. So what he did was he let it dribble out of his mouth very quickly. and then he rides around in pain as he had seen everyone else do. Now, I'm sure he was in pain. Even with the short amount of time that he was in contact with this stuff,

from what I understood Gibbs, the minute it touched any part of your lip, mouth, whatever, it caused, you know, major damage. Yeah. But he was able to not ingest it. He was able to, you know, get most of it out of his mouth. So making the hostages drink the Drano, it was horrible, but it didn't kill them the way that I believe this pair thought that it would. And this is where you really get into the role of the two individuals perpetrating this crime.

Because, you know, as we get further on in the story, obviously there's going to be questions around who gave the Drano, who made them drink it, who did this, who did that. but at the end of the day, they're both involved, right? They're both in the basement. They're culpable for everything that happens. But the one thing is, I don't think there's any doubt that Pierre is the more vicious of the two. We're going to find that out. He's more culpable. How did I know that you were going to try to use that word again?

I just knew it. It was bound to happen. Was it culpable of me? It was culpable of you. Okay. That doesn't make any sense. But it's funny. Yeah.

Some in law enforcement. have said that, you know, it was Williams. That was probably the brains. Some people have labeled him as that. But Pierre was definitely the muscle. He was the enforcer, the person that carried out the horrific aspects of this crime. Yeah, well, you don't have a problem shoving a baynette in someone's face. You know, I know he wasn't found guilty of that.

Right. He's heavily suspected. Yes. But I agree. If that's not an issue for you, then there's probably not a lot that is. No. The Drano, the shooting of people, stabbing people. There's probably not a lot that turns your stomach that would be a, what, off limits?

Yeah. Somebody like that, this is another day in their office. Yeah. To that point, Pierre started to get upset that these people weren't dying. I think the pair expected these hostages to die from drinking this Drano, but they didn't. So Pierre began shooting them in the back of the head. First he shot Courtney Nesbid, then he shot his mother, Carol, both in the back of the head. Then he shot Stanley Walker and then his father, Orrin.

So four people made to drink the Drano, four people shot in the head. That leaves Michelle Ansley. We said she did not drink the Drano, was not immediately shot. Now, she's scared to death. She's begging for her life. Absolutely. Yeah. But this was intentional, right?

On the part of these individuals, because Pierre took Michelle into a corner of the basement. He made her strip naked and he sexually assaulted her multiple times. as William Andrews sat and watched. When Pierre was done with this sexual assault, he brought Michelle back to where the others were in the basement, threw her down on the ground and shot her in the back of the head. And it was after this that the pair noticed that Orrin Walker was still alive.

So Pierre tried to strangle him with the wire, but he was unsuccessful. So what they did next is something that I've never heard of. And I think you have to ask the question, who would even think of this? They take a ballpoint pen and they put it in this man's ear. Obviously, he's probably laying on his side. Sure. The pin is sticking up out of his ear.

Then Pierre repeatedly stomped the pen until it punctured this man's ear and actually came out the other side of his throat. Extremely brutal. I've never heard of anything like that. And you and I have covered a lot of cases, stabbings, shootings, you name it,

right, poisonings. I've never heard of somebody stomping a pin through, essentially through somebody's ear canal. That would be as painful. And then it coming out the other side. Clearly they were trying to make it go into the brain.

is what I'm thinking they were. I believe so. They thought that that would kill him. But again, right? You said it. Extremely brutal. You can see why this case has affected so many people for so many years. And it's also the reason why we've had so many requests for it. How can people be so vicious? This is one of those cases where you sit back and you think, how could somebody do that? How could they make the decision to use this Drano? Stomp somebody's head with a, you know, stomp a pin into somebody's head. Why not just leave the people tied up in the basement?

Take all the stuff and leave. Or if you wanted them dead, why didn't you just shoot them? Straight away. Yeah. Why go through all and everything that they went through? So after the pair had caused so much carnage, right? They loaded up the rest of the stolen stereo equipment.

and they left in the van driven by Keith Roberts. So everyone's gone. The five victims in the basement, they wouldn't be found for several hours. You know, this happened when Orrin's wife, Stanley's mother eventually got worried. She came looking for them at the high-fi shop.

And I can't imagine walking into that scene. I just can't. But obviously, she called the authorities, police arrive, emergency personnel, arrive. Michelle Ansley and Stanley Walker were dead. Orrin Walker was still alive, even though the Drano had done tremendous damage to his esophagus and his stomach. And he was one that didn't even

drink it, right? He tried to let it dribble out of his mouth. Right. Didn't matter. It still caused major damage. But doctors were able to save his life. You would have thought Gibbs that all five of these individuals would have been found dead with what they went through. Oh, yeah. We're talking about them being shot in the head. The gunshot alone. Dr. Drano, all of this stuff. But Orrin Walker survived. Carol and Courtney Nesbit were rushed to Ogden St. Benedict Hospital. And I, you know, to me, I think what ER doctors do is amazing, right? Number one, you have no idea what type of issue is coming through. And I, you know, you know, through that door at any given moment. No, no. I mean, you have to make very quick decisions and

decide where to start first, right? Yeah. And you know, some nights are probably pretty routine. And then all of a sudden, you've got multiple patients coming in with after ingesting the streno, they've been shot in the head. I mean, where do you even start? Again, that's why I say. I just think it's amazing what these doctors do. I don't know how many of them would have seen this exact scenario. I don't think they saw this coming for sure. This is not something that they probably have ever experienced. As we said, Carol and Courtney both shot in the head. They were covered in blood. They were barely breathing. It wasn't long after they got to the hospital that Carol stopped breathing and she died. An x-ray later showed that the bullet entered her skull, but it split into two pieces.

One piece kept going through, but the other made a sharp turn, like straight down, towards her brainstem. And Courtney wasn't much better. You know, he couldn't breathe. Hospital personnel were fighting a losing battle trying to get him oxygen. They performed an emergency tracheotomy. that probably saved his life, right? He just couldn't breathe. And one of the papers, Gibbs, it says that as he was rushed into surgery after they did the

emergency tracheotomy, every time he gasped for air, foam would shoot out of the trache tube. Oh, yeah, from chemical reaction, sure. It just, wow. You get that image in your head and you think, how are they going to save this kid's life? But they do. and it's a wonder that he survived it took many operations to save him in total Courtney spent 266 days in the hospital wow that's a long time it is a long time so he did survive but horrific injuries right this kid he was never going to be the same oh well that

never the same mentally or physically yeah either one so then we get into the investigation, into the crime, it really didn't take all that long. Pretty quickly, an airman from the Air Force base contacted police to say that William Andrews had said something to him a few months earlier about robbing the high-fi store. And he also said that William told him he was going to kill anybody he saw inside the store. And then not long after that, police got a call from some teenagers. They were looking for pot bottles in a dumpster near the Air Force Base. But what they found inside the dumpster was a bunch of wallets and purses, drivers licenses

inside that turned out to be from the victims. So police go to the Air Force Base, right? Go to this dumpster. By the time they got there, there's already a bunch of people gathered around. ground. Got a crowd forming. Sure. You got a crowd. Mostly air force personnel included in the crowd is Dale and William. And you know they dumped those items in the dumpster on their way back to their barracks at the base. They had to be there. When the police pulled that stuff out, they had to watch. They had to see what transpired. They want to see the reaction. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think this is one of the reasons why this case is used in, you know, some of the teachings for the FBI at Quantico. It's really the actions of the detective that was on scene. He later said that he had an intuition that maybe the murderers were in this crowd of people. So what he did was he put on this big show of pulling out the pieces of evidence from the dumpster. but as he did this, he was looking at all the people in the crowd, trying to gauge them to see how they reacted. And sure enough, he noticed that two people in particular were acting very strangely. They were pacing back and forth. They were talking loudly, very much in stark contrast to everyone else, right? The rest of the people are just quiet, silent, looking on probably in shock as the police are, you know, pulling out the items from the dumpster, but not these two men.

And it was this quick thinking detective that later identified the two men as Pierre and Andrews. So police detained the pair and they got a search warrant for their barracks and inside. They found a flyer for the high five shop, which, you know, doesn't look great, but it's not a great big bomb show. No. It doesn't prove that they did anything. The bombshell was that they found a rental agreement for a storage locker in Pierre's name that he apparently rented on the day of the murders. Not good.

Not good. So then they got a search warrant for that place. And inside, they found a bunch of stolen stereo equipment. And using the serial numbers, they were able to tie it back to the hi-fi shop. it was said to be worth about $24,000. It's a lot back then, man. It's a lot of money in 74. I mean, what would that be today, you think, Gibbs?

It would be $98,000. You didn't wait for my, beep, bo, beep, bo, bo, bo, bo, bo. $98,000. You were quick on that one. Yeah. You had that one, like, ready to go. I know. It's a lot of stereo equipment.

It is a lot of stereo equipment in 1974. But on top of that, they found the bottle of Drano. that was used in this horrific crime. That's some pretty good evidence. That's a really good evidence. Smartest people to take the drainobos back to the storage unit. Maybe you should put that in a dumpster as well. Right.

But maybe they had a clog in one of the barracks that they were going to use the leftover Drano for later. Yeah, maybe. But that was really all it took, right? That's enough evidence to arrest the two men. They were charged with first degree merino. murder, robbery. The decision was made to try the pair together.

And their trial began in October of 1974. The prosecution laid out, you know, all their evidence as they would in any case. They also said that the defendants had watched a movie a few days before the murder in which a victim was silenced by being forced to drink Drano. Okay. Hollywood. doesn't always work in real life. And I think it was actually one of the dirty hairy movies.

I can't remember which one it was. But they also called a number of witnesses. They had the airmen from the base that testified to the fact that Andrews told him he was going to rob the high-fi shop and kill anyone that he came into contact with. They also called a witness who owned a stereo shop in Layton, Utah. And this man identified both William and Dale as being part of a group of six African-American men who came into his store earlier acting very suspicious. And eventually the store owner asked them to leave and they wouldn't. So again, I think another reason why authorities believed there were more than just these three men involved in some.

way. The prosecution talked about the guns that were used to shoot the victims. They said it was two guns. One was a 25 semi-auto and the other was a 38 caliber revolver. Well, there's a caliber you don't hear much anymore about. 25. Right. Yeah, those, some of those smaller calibers were more popular in the 60s, 70s time frame. I'm a. I'm a. assuming you can maybe get one now, but I've never seen one like at a store or anything. Yeah. I don't even know if they, I'm sure somebody makes a 25, but, you know, now you've got anybody that was going to buy a 25 would buy a 380. Yeah. That would be a more common round, um, bigger than a 22, smaller than a 9 millimeter. But one problem that the prosecution had was that

neither gun was ever found. So they didn't have the morgue. murder weapons, but they had all these witnesses, they had a lot of evidence, but probably the biggest witness they had was Survivor Warren Walker. He was able to testify and identify both men as the robbers. And he identified Pierre specifically as the person who had shot everyone that night. He told the jury how he was tied up, made to drink the drain cleaner. He was choked and he said he survived by playing dead. But he told the jury at one point, Pierre reached down and felt his pulse. And he knew that he was still alive.

And that's when he stomped the pin into his ear. So for someone who was in the basement that night, Gibbs, to get on the stand to tell the jury what happened, I just don't see how you could get much better or, much more powerful testimony than that. I don't think he can. I mean, how compelling would that be to hear his story, what happened to him while he was in that basement. I don't know how you can come back at that. You can try. And he's saying these are the two men that did all this two men. After I've been through all this, now you, Mr. Defense attorney, is going to call me a liar in front of these people. Yeah. Good luck. Well, and I do think the defense had a very hard time. Like you said,

how are they going to combat a surviving witness that saw everything that these two men did to the other four individuals. Now, Courtney Nesbit, we talked about him. He survived as well, but he was unable to testify. And he was still in the hospital. He was unable to testify because of his numerous injuries and ailments. I think he even had some issues. with his memory.

And so there was just no way that that he could be put on the stand. But even so, I don't think this was a tough decision for the 11 men and one woman that was on the jury. The trial lasted about a month. And then the jury got the case. They spent about 10 hours deliberating, which is some good amount of time. Sure. We've seen some that are an hour, hour and a half.

Yeah. Yeah, fast turn around. This was 10 hours, but in the end, they convicted both men of murder and a few days later, they were sentenced to die, both of them. The jury only took about an hour and 45 minutes to determine that, right, the sentence. Yeah, well, I think that's when you torture somebody and put them through a murder that didn't need to happen, right? You could have easily left them tied, took your stuff, left and been done with it. So now there's going to be some questions about the death sentence for William Andrews.

We'll talk about it a little bit later. Remember, he was not said to have actually killed anyone. But again, we'll get into that in a minute. At the time under Utah law, 1974, the two men had two different choices. They could choose being hanged or being shot by. firing squad. Those are two choices. It's old school, man. It's old school, but it's 1974.

We're not talking about 1874. Right. Which one would you take? I would take, golly. I think I'd take firing squad. There's something about the hanging that to me. Lingers on? There's too many variables.

You know, if you drop and your neck has snapped immediately and you do you die immediately? I would say yes. Right. That's, that would be okay. Yeah. Not okay.

Obviously, I don't want to be hanged. But you know what I'm saying? My problem is, I don't, that doesn't happen all the time. With that big neck of yours, you're going to hang on for a while.

And then you're just swinging and gas. That to me is frightening. Yeah. Um, being shot is, again, you could still have the same issue though, being not being killed instantly. But you would think,

enough bullets you would be. It's three members, five members of the firing squad that, you know, one of them is going to be successful. I don't know. Let's hope I never have to make that choice. Yeah. Unless you're in a different country. I think you're okay with the firing squad. Well, and these two guys aren't going to be killed by either one of the, you know, either one of them. But what I do, what I did find interesting was that no one in Utah had been executed since 1960. A long time. long time. The other thing I want to talk about and kind of dive into is the timeline. So this brutal crime occurred in April, right, of 74. The men were arrested pretty quickly.

By October of that same year, they're already on trial for their lives. And by November, they're sentenced to death. That is a very quick turnaround. That is quick. In newer cases, it would never happen that fast in a big high profile murder case like that. I mean, we've seen it take years and years for a murderer to even get to trial. And these men are on death row the same year they committed their crime. Yeah, it's amazing, actually. It really is. Now, after they were sentenced, Laura Soarred, the mother of Michelle Ansley said that

she would have lost faith in the judicial system if it had been anything less than death. She said, quote, all I could think of is that they didn't give my daughter a chance. She pleaded for her life. And I didn't dive into this a whole lot, Gibbs. I probably should have. This is something that Orrin Walker testified to at trial extensively. You know, Michelle Ansley pleading for her life. Again, all of that would have hit home very hard to the jury, right?

The fact that he was there, he saw it all, he could describe what each individual went through. The fact that he decided to sexually assault or during a robbery, I mean, again, if they would have just went in there, stole the stuff and left, they wouldn't have had any of these problems. But they decided going into it, they were probably going to kill people. but then they had to throw in sexual assault on top of it. It's pointless, but that's what they did. But I think that's where you get into the mindset of these two individuals. Why was that? Why were they looking to murder people?

It's essentially as though they set out to murder people, right? Like you said, they could have walked away with a really good haul of stolen merchandise with a chance of never getting caught. Right. They wouldn't have had all of the wallets and the identification cards and all of this. And even if they did get caught, their sentences, you know, whatever it is, but it's not life. It's not death. I don't know. To me, that's the fascinating part of these stories. What clicks off in someone's mind to say, I'm going to do this. I'm going to make the decision to end a life or many lives. So we talked about Keith Roberts, a guy that sat in the van. He was charged. He was convicted of two counts of aggravated robbery and received a sentence of five years to life. That's a pretty

healthy sentence for sitting in the getaway van. But he wasn't convicted of anything having to do with the murders. And he served almost 13 years in prison, was paroled in in 1987 as far as as I know, he's still alive, living his life somewhere, he would be in his early 60s, you know, at this point in time. It was just tough finding information on him. The only thing I really found was that a couple of years after he was parole, an article said he was living in Chandler, Oklahoma, and working at an electronics company, the article went on to say that his parole record was so good. He was approved. He was approved. for quote,

mail-in status. So essentially that meant he could mail in his monthly parole report and he didn't even have to see his parole officer in person. Or where the ankle device I have to wear sometimes.

Yeah, I don't think they, did they have those in the 80s? No. You didn't get your first one to when? Early 2000s. Was it early 2000s? Yeah. Much bigger, bulkier back then?

Now they're more slim fitting. And what's amazing is 17, 18 years later, still wearing it. I know it. From time to time. Just slim fitting now. Well, electronics have gotten a lot smaller. Yeah. For sure.

It's like a fit bit for your ankle. So then we get back to Pierre and Andrews, Dale, Selby, Pierre, whatever you want to call this guy. He had a commutation hearing in 1987. where he talked about the events that happened the night of April 22nd. I just, you know, just continued shooting.

I figured, you know, I shot Mrs. Nesbilt and I just started shooting everybody else. When I was using the bathroom, I saw the draino in there. At that point, I remember the noise, you know,

they were making the sound of, you know, the sound of pain, really. So I know it's a short clip, but I wanted to get, something of him talking. There's not a lot out there. He says something in that clip, though, that is odd. He says when he was using the bathroom, he saw the draino. There are some conflicting reports on this, but most of the reports have them bringing the draino with them. And at a certain point, one of them goes out in the van to get it. But he's making it sound like, oh, I just happened to

see the Drano and decided I would use it. Yeah, I used the bathroom, sold the Drano, brought it back out. Which flies in the face of the, they saw the movie, you know, some days earlier. Right. They saw someone use Drano to kill somebody and they thought that was a good idea. Regardless, they used it. Oh, they did. Yeah. And you can hear him say, you know, he heard the, the screams, the cries, the, it would have been brutal. Yeah, I think he's playing it up as, I didn't know what I was going to do. I saw the drain of. We decided to use it. It didn't work. They were in pain. So I put him out. I had to shoot. Yep. I think you're exactly right. I think that's where he's going. Now, this is a commutation hearing, right? He's trying to get his death sentence

commuted. So he is being somewhat more free with information. He's got nothing to lose. He's about ready to be executed. One of the things that happened over the years was the, NAACP got involved in trying to overturn the death sentences of both of these men. They argued that the two defendants who were black were convicted by an all white jury, which both of those statements are true. They also made an argument about William Andrews that I kind of alluded to earlier that he really didn't kill anyone, right? He admitted to the robbery, but said it was Pierre who.

tortured and killed those people, they said that the evidence showed this to be true. And even Pierre's own words before his death exonerated Andrews in the tortures and in the killings, they raised some serious questions about Williams defense team, you know, really centered around why they didn't object to certain things during the trial, but none of it worked. Pierre was executed by lethal injection on August 28, 1987. He was the first man to be executed in Utah since Gary Gilmore died by firing squad in 1977. Gary Gilmore, big name, somebody that we haven't done yet, but we will. I think it also shows you that they don't execute a lot of people in Utah or didn't at least in in those years, right?

10 years between executions from 77 to 87. Apparently, Pierre said, I'll be glad when this is over as the time for the execution drew near. And as always is the case, Gives, there were people on both sides of the capital punishment debate. In every case we do, right, where there is an execution on the execution day as it's taking place. There's always people outside. And you have this group that, you know, has the anti-death signs. You have this other group that is cheering on when the person is executed. Happens in every case.

And a lot of times there's words between the two. Sometimes there's fighting. Yeah. In this case, there was an individual obviously for the death penalty who was walking around outside the prison carrying a can of Drano with a pen in each of his ears. Loud statement. I found it odd, but there's no mistaking what this guy is trying to say. Apparently there were local bars in Ogden that held execution parties. Can you imagine going to execution party? I can't, but I've also never heard of that in any case we've ever done.

Right. And I think maybe that goes to. how big of a case, how big of a crime this was. How horrific. How horrific. And how it stayed with people in the Ogden, Utah area. Because this is, what, 13 years after the crime. Yeah. And they're celebrating this man's death by having parties at different bars throughout the city.

That's the other thing. He was executed in 13 years. Yeah. That's very quick. Maybe they just don't mess around in Utah. I don't know. William Andrews suffered the same fate five years later on July 30th, 1992. But his execution was strange.

So on the day that he was to be executed, he was strapped into the gurney. They were preparing him for the lethal injection when a call came in with a temporary reprieve. So they had to unstrap him and take him back to his cell. but then later on that day his execution was carried out. Hey, can you imagine? I cannot. It's a, you know, all right, we're going to get, wait, hold on, wait a minute.

I mean, you are so, now I don't know. Everybody would act differently. I can only kind of talk from my standpoint, you know, so nervous, so scared of what's about ready to happen. And then all of a sudden they say, oh, yep, just kidding. We're going to take you back to your cell. Yeah. You don't know what's going to happen.

And then at some point later, they come. and say, nope, it's back on. You got to go through all that again? Just getting, you know, building your psyche up for that, you know, just to be like, all right, this is what's going to happen. And then to have that, you know, psych. I mean, just having to tighten your sphincter muscles and very tight spinkler. Did you say spinkler?

Is that a cross between sphincter and sprinkler? Yes. Yeah. Oh, no. I just found that very odd. And I'm sure it happens probably more than I'm aware of. But my luck, I'd get one of those people at, and I know your mom's a nurse. But sometimes when they try to get that vein, they, you know, miss.

And they poke you like 10 times and then they finally get where it needs to be. I never had 10 times. I went a couple of weeks ago to have blood taken. And it did take three different times. Yeah. And by the third time, I was somewhat perturbed. I just grab the needle now and stick it in myself. Here you go.

Now you can go ahead and start doing what you need to do. But I do want to talk about William Andrews because he was executed, obviously, just like Pierre. The question is, should he have been? If he really didn't kill anyone, as most of the evidence seems to point to. Yeah. Now, he was there. Sure. He was involved.

Did he have the opportunity to stop the murders? Did he have an opportunity to walk away from the murders? Does that make a difference? You know? I'm just saying in the eyes of the law. The jury found him guilty and they thought he should be executed. I can live with that. I'm really just kind of saying, as you think about it, do you think that's correct?

From a law perspective alone. I don't know. I don't know if that was correct. Looking at it morally, the fact that he knew what the intentions were that day had it there alone. And then the fact that he stayed, he assisted. He participated in some way. Yeah, he had to help hold their head. Sure.

And then he sat there and watched her be sexually assaulted. And then he helped with the cover-up. So he had plenty of opportunities to. walk away or to, you know, not allow what occurred to occur. Yeah, I have actually no problem with him being put to death, but I actually think you can make the argument. Unlike Pierre, Pierre, there's no argument for me for him not being executed. Well, let me say this.

If this was today, tried today, same circumstance, I don't think he would have got the death penalty. Well, let me ask you this. what if he was tried separately? See, I think that's part of the big argument that people make, right? He's tried jointly with this man. Oh. And essentially lumped in with him, although they're both horrible people. I think Pierre was even much worse.

Yeah, I mean, for sure, being lumped together, tried together is not beneficial to him at all. No, I don't think so either. But I agree with you. I think today, would vary by state, but I think the chances of him getting death would be less likely. Well, for sure. I really do. Yeah.

But again, it depends on where you're at in the country. It depends on what jury you draw. I mean, these people were so repulsed, I'm sure, by what they heard and the trial that they just said, you know what? Both of you all need to go. Yeah, I mean, guilty by association, you know. I think there's some, there's. some to that. As far as the murders go, because even Pierre himself, like I mentioned, has said that he was the one that killed all those individuals that were killed, that William

Andrews didn't kill anyone. But it really doesn't matter because they're both dead. That's true. We can only just talk about it. I didn't want to talk about Courtney, Nesbit a little bit. He survived, but just really had serious, serious injuries, went on to live as normal life as he could. And it was pretty normal. He got a job. He actually got married. But he endured a number of surgeries over the years from the effects of drinking that

Drano. He suffered a lot of complications and died in early death in 2002. He was only 44. years old. And it was somewhat of a mysterious death. Doctors really couldn't pinpoint the cause, but I don't doubt Gibbs that his early death had something to do with the events of April 22nd, 1974. Yeah, yeah, I think it probably did too. Orrin Walker died in 2000 at the age of 69. So when you think about it, there is no one left that was involved with the torture, rape, and murder that occurred that night.

The victims are all now dead. And the two perpetrators that were in the basement that night are dead as well. It's a sad story. It's a sad case. It is a sad case. It's a horrific case. You know, it's the details of it are kind of mind boggling a little bit.

You know, like we said, how do you get to that point in your mind where you make the decision that you're going to cause the death of someone or multiple people. I just can't wrap my head around it. I don't think people listening can. And I also think that's why most people are fascinated with these types of cases. Yeah, it's just so pointless, you know, pointless murder.

Nothing, like I said, if they wanted to rob the place, they did so, successful. All they needed to was drive the van away. but they wanted something more than that. Right. And that's what I'm saying. There's something in their mind, right? There's something in their makeup that said, it's not enough. It's not enough for us to go in, tie these people up, steal everything, and leave. Well, when you don't value life, right?

Pierre didn't value life. He had no problem shoving that bayonet in someone's face. Allegedly. Allegedly. Allegedly. We don't have to say allegedly. He's dead, but they never convicted. him of it, but they were pretty sure. I think the other thing that is fascinating about this case is the two perpetrators, right, Pierre and Andrews, who really was the mastermind, who was the

leader, who was the follower? Because I've seen different things about it. I've seen where William Andrews is thought to have been the mastermind, the leader. I've also seen where people think that Pierre was the much more aggressive of the two. And the signs point to that, right? Because he did the killing. And that Andrews was more of a follower type. So I think that's an interesting aspect of the case as well. Yeah.

I'm not surprised by that dynamic, though. But that's it, Gibbs. That's the case of the hi-fi murders. We have some voicemails. Check those out. Yeah, let's hear him. Hello, gentlemen. My name is Jenny.

and I'm calling from Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada. And I'm just about halfway through your episode on James Rupert. And, of course, already halfway through. I've already laughed a couple of times. And I'm a long-time listener. First of all, I wanted to just call and give you guys a bit of love and say, thank you so much for all the amazing work that you do. It's such a nice balance, your podcast, between just some funny,

banter where I feel like I'm hanging out with a couple of buds, but at the same time, really exceptional storytelling and tact while you're at it. So thank you for that. The other main reason I wanted to call is because Gibby's comment about getting into the van because of the smell of cooking bacon or a tray of bacon, I'm 100% with you. I would 110% get into the bacon van, no matter what the beacon van looked like. And that kind of got me thinking that food truck operators might have an easy in there. So anyhow, I will stop rambling. Thank you for everything you do and keep your own time ticking.

Man, I love that, Jenny. I got your number, too, 8675309. Now, that was a great voicemail. It really makes us feel good to hear stuff like that. The bacon thing got a lot of traction on social media. I love my bacon. There was a lot of people saying, you know, hey, I'm going to get in a van. I'm going to drive through Dayton and see if I can attract Gibby.

I'm not that far behind you, man. I like bacon a lot. Today, it's Ben from Melbourne, Australia. So it's Melbourne, not Melbourne. Today, Nick and Gibbo. That's what we call you in Australia. Love the show. Meow, I think it's fantastic.

Got on to it after watching Dirty John. and started looking around to see what I could see about psychopaths. They do my head in. Freak me out. And just about every podcast I listen to from you guys absolutely freaks me out. I'm now walking around the street, picking out serial killers. I reckon I'm pretty good at it. Now, hope you're all going well.

And love the accents from Givow. The Australian accent is hilarious, not even close. So keep your own time ticking. Keep it up, boys. All good. Cheers. Bye. What you don't know is that's me doing the call-in number. What was that? Did you just stop doing the accident? Accent, mid-sentence? Yeah, I don't know what happened.

You just kind of morphed right into your regular voice, though. That was funny. Yeah, yeah. Now, we appreciate that from Melbourne. Did you say it right? I think so. Melbourne. Melbourne. Melbourne. Not Melbourne.

Melbourne. It's Melbourne. It's Melbourne. Burr-burne. Good. die. I'm Mick and your Gibbae? Gibbo? Gibbo. I couldn't, yeah, I didn't, I missed that part a little bit.

But I'm Mick like Crocodile Dundee. You think? Mm-hmm. It's so wrong. I got that charisma. You got, you got something all right. I got something. Looks like a rash. Hi, this is April from Salt Lake City, Utah.

I just want to say that I listen to your podcast while I'm at work. I work for UPS, just like getting used to. I'm actually a dispatch supervisor, and while I'm sitting there by myself, I listen to you guys, and I think you're great. I do have a suggestion, just like everybody else, I wish you would cover Albert Fish. Other than that, I think you guys are awesome, and I couldn't be happier. want to always like scream into my phone when you get like movie clothes wrong or movie actors wrong or whatever. But yeah, I always just wait to see how it comes out.

But anyway, yeah, just want to say you guys are freaking great and keep your own time taken. And shout out from Salt Lake City. Bye. So two things there. Obviously, we appreciate the voicemail. Sure. That's a lot of screaming into the phone. screaming every time Gibbs gets a movie quote wrong.

Not very often. Not very often. And then the other thing is she's calling from Salt Lake City. Yeah. So this is this episode that we just did is obviously very close to her. Kind of head home. And what can Brown do for you? Exactly.

Hey, Mike and Gibby. This is Teresa from Southeast Texas. I was just calling to suggest a summary that happened down here. I think in 2007. The name was a Chinese. Stewart and her boyfriend killed her in the bathtub and then barbecued her in two different grill. It's called Rific.

Horific. And his name is Timothy Wayne Shepard. Anyways, I'm team both of you. I'm freaking podcast. Oh, and I got Gun Barrel City, Texas. In a podcast earlier, I think, I drive through all the town. I'm going to go to see my husband in the Dallas. And it's pretty neat place to keep your own time ticking, guys.

Wow, that sounds like a story that we definitely need to look into. Sounds like a good one. Right up our alley. We appreciate all the voicemails. We had a lot of mailbag. Did we have mailbag? A lot. All right.

It was like Christmas morning this week. We never share the mailbag with me. In the mail. I share it when you come over. You always take it for yourself. Kimberly Monk sent a ton of beef jerky. Oh, man. That's like, I think you had a mule outside.

To deliver it. To deliver it. I wasn't sure if you were saying the beef jerky was mule or... I haven't looked at the ingredients yet. Maybe it is. I don't know. It's actually good. I tried it.

Okay. She also sent some rum, which is the first alcohol I think we've gotten. Green Hatch, Chili's and salsa, all this from New Mexico. Oh, yeah. Really all kinds of stuff. A bunch of Harley chips. Some from Madrid, New Mexico. Really?

And if you remember Madrid, that's where they hold up in wild hogs. That's right. Remember that? I do. It was Madrid, New Mexico. Did you get on your little Harley out there? And why you call it a little Harley? That is pretty big.

It's a big ass Harley. Did you go to your big ass Harley? Yeah, like I got a little electric version, play school version or whatever you call. Powerbike or whatever they call this. Gary Mowles or Moles or Moles could be sent some Harley chips from Boston. He also sent us a couple of cigars. Really? Yeah, they're called Fat Bottom Bettys.

Fat Bottom Bettys. That's the name on the cigar. Man. Okay. So we'll have to try those out. Yeah, thank you for that. Janine Hopp sent me a visor with a man bun attached to it. Oh, perfect for you.

She wanted to make sure I had some hair when I needed it. You're going to wear that to a crime con. Yeah, maybe. She also sent three books, one about movie quotes. Okay. Which I know you'll take and bone up on your movie quotes. I don't bone up on anything first. I mean to say that.

I think you bone up on a lot of stuff. I don't bone up on stuff. One on survival prepping, which. Arthur. by me. Arthur? Or authored. It was Arthured by you, which I'm taking because I'm, you know, I'm into that.

Yeah, you are. And then a quiz book for Mensa people. Oh. That you and I might have to work in a segment where we ask a question. I'm sure I donated it to it. Some of the questions and answers. Yeah. And then Lottie.

Our friend Lottie from Denmark sent some Easter candy. She also sent some salami. Salami. which is very good. Clearly, because I haven't seen it. I showed it to you. But we appreciate all that stuff that people send in. Absolutely.

Thank you so much. All right. Gives you got anything else? No. I think that was a full episode. I will say this. I take it some feedback about the, remember we were talking about the oldest child, middle child, youngest child?

I got some of that too, yeah. It's predominantly coming back that the youngest spoiled. The feedback I got. Yeah, no, I think that's true. Spoiled and the best. I don't know about the best. best. Well, you're, you're, uh, you're the, you're the, you're an only child, so you guys are

automatically spoiled. Right. Right. I think that's true. And that what we said, though, youngest is the spoiled gets to do more than. Absolutely. But I, I, the feedback I got was more about the middle child. Yeah.

Getting, getting the shaft. Yeah. Looking right at it. Right here. I know. I'm looking at the man that got the shaft. That's right. We better get the shaft out of here.

All right. That is it for another episode of True. crime all the time. So from Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.