True Crime All The Time - The Idaho College Murders Part 1

Episode Date: January 5, 2026

On November 13th, 2022, four University of Idaho students were stabbed to death in their off-campus house at 1122 King Road in Moscow. The victims were 21-year-old Kaylee Goncalves, 21-year-old Madison Mogen, 20-year-old Xana Kernodle, and 20-year-old Ethan Chapin. Two other roommates in the home survived that night. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murders at the University of Idaho. Four fun-loving young people with their whole lives ahead of them lost their lives. In this part 1 episode, we'll discuss the details of the murders and the hunt for the killer. Police zeroed in on Bryan Kohberger, a grad student at nearby Washington State University, but they had to prove it was him. There is also a lingering question as to the motive for these murders.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 466 of the True Crime All The Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? Hey, I'm doing good about you. I'm doing great. You know, last week was, uh, was nice to take a week off and, you know, spend time with the family. And now we're back at it. A little refreshing.

Yeah, it's always nice to have a week off. It is. You know, we don't get a lot of them. but especially around the holidays. I like to take at least a week off. So we hope everyone's having a great holiday season. We're recording right before the first. Yeah.

So by the time this comes out, it'll be 2026. You all had a happy new year. Yeah. Yeah. And I hope 2026 is a good one. Not going to make any promises, though, because that got me into trouble last time. Yeah, you kind of quit doing that for the last two years now.

Yeah, no more, you know, prognostications from me. Definitely don't do anything that starts with pro. Don't even try that. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Catherine Carpio. Hey, Catherine. Ricky jumped out at our highest level. Hey, thanks, Ricky.

Sherry Billet. Well, hi, Sherry. Spring Pierce jumped out at our highest level. Oh, thanks, spring. Awesome. Angela Rogers. Hey, thanks, Angela. Ali Perry. There's Ali. Terry R. Oh, Terry R. Yoma Creative 16. Well, keep being creative.

Nick Smith. Hey, Nick. Jasmine Howk. Well, thanks, Howl. And last but not least, Emily Mcrinos. And then if we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Melissa Beebe. Hey, thanks, Melissa. Yeah, we appreciate the new Patreon support, a continued support. We also had an amazing PayPal donation from our good friend Melinda Wargacki. Hey, Wargaki, appreciate that. Yeah. We've met her and her husband at CrimeCon. They're awesome.

They live pretty close to us. So Gibbs, we have an episode out right now on True Crime All the Time Unsolved where we're talking about Dorothy Kilgal. She was a journalist and a TV personality, really known for covering high profile murder cases. She was even on game shows and, you know, other shows. She died at the age of 52. But at the time, Verdess, she was investigating the assassination of John F. Kennedy, which has led to a number of, you know, conspiracy theories, if you want to call

them that. I think it could always be kind of touchy when you do an investigation into, like, JFK. Well, you know, people have their theories. People are entrenched, some of them. And, And you also have the fact that if some of the theories are true, then there would be people who would not want certain things to come to light. Yeah, that's true. So we'll get into all of it. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am.

We are tackling the Idaho college murders on November 13th, 2022 for University of Idaho students were stabbed to death in their off-campus house. house at 1122 King Road in Moscow. The victims were 21-year-old Kaylee Gonzalez, 21-year-old Madison Mogan, 20-year-old Zana Kernodal, and 20-year-old Ethan Chapin. Two other roommates in the home survived that night. And it's so hard for me to believe that this has been over three years.

It really is shocking. since these murders occurred because I remember them on the news like it was yesterday. Yeah, yeah. But this is also a case that scared, do you know what out of me? Sure did. Because at the time, I had a, you know, a couple of kids in college and it's always scary. The victims were killed by Brian Coburg, a grad student at nearby Washington State University and Pullman.

Koberer appeared to stalk them for months. But even today, you know, his motive is kind of unknown. And prosecutors have no definitive link between Coburger and the victim. Now, in part one, we'll discuss the lives of the victims and how the early stages of the investigation unfolded. Ethan Chapin was born on October 29, 2002. He was a triplet, born minutes before his siblings, Maisie and Hunter. You ever known a triplet? You know, actually, I went to school with some triplets, and they were a lot of fun.

But, okay. You might want to add some context to that before people take that the wrong way. Yeah, yeah. I mean, just, you know, they, they were just very energetic. And it was difficult to know who was who. Okay, so they were very. Yes. identical.

Yes. Yeah. Ethan was from Conway, Washington. All three siblings enrolled in the University of Idaho in August 22. Ethan was a freshman sports management major and a member of the Sigma Chi fraternity. He had previously played basketball in high school. His obituary said, since attending the University of Idaho, Ethan lived his best life. He loved the social life.

intramurals and tolerated the academics, he also continued to play sports. And that kind of sums up my college experience right there. Yeah. Obviously, I've talked about it. I love the social life too much. You did. But I also did like playing intramural sports. We had our own, you know, team with made-up shirts and everything. I even continued doing that after you left university and, And I remember you at a place that we used to work together. Oh, yeah, we had a team. You had a team there too. Yeah, we played basketball.

Zana Kronodal was born on July 5th, 2002. She grew up in Post Falls, Idaho. She was a gymnast and played volleyball, track, and soccer. Zana majored in marketing at the University of Idaho and was a member of the Pi Beta Phi Sorority and the Vandal Solution sales team. She also worked part-time at Mad Greek restaurant in Moscow. Zana's sister Jasmine said about her, you rarely get to meet someone like Zana.

She was so positive, funny and was loved by everyone who met her. Sounds like she had an outgoing personality. Yeah, it also sounds like she was into a lot of different things, especially sports. Zana and Ethan were friends before they started dating. and Zana spent time with Ethan's family over the summer. Zana was roommates with Madison Mogan and Kaylee Gonzalez. Madison Mogan was born on May 25th, 2001.

She grew up in northern Idaho and was close friends with Kaylee Gonzalez, whom she met in middle school. Kaylee and Madison were so close. They were described as more like sisters than friends. Madison was a senior marketing. major at the University of Idaho and a member of the Pi Beta Phi Sorority. She also worked at the Mad Greek restaurant with Zana. Madison had plans to move to Boise after graduation in the spring.

You ever been to Boise? I have not. I don't actually, I don't think I've ever even been to Idaho at all. Been to Idaho driving through, but never like, you know, staying over or anything like that. Mm-hmm. It looks like it could be a nice place. Why did you laugh when you said that? Because I didn't really...

It almost made it sound like you were being insincere. No, it has like the mountain ranges and the wilderness. And it looks like it could be like a good place to vacation, you know, or... Maybe even live. Or maybe live, you know, but I didn't stop to experience the Rockies in Idaho. Okay. I almost feel like you're digging yourself a hole here that... I feel like I dug myself out, though.

Is going to get you in trouble. I'm okay now. Kaylee Gonzalez was born on June 8, 2001. Kaylee joined the Alpha Phi sorority and was studying to become an elementary school teacher. She was described as a social person who made friends wherever she went. On November 12, 2002, all of the roommates at 1122 King Road went out in Moscow, Ethan Chapin attended a formal. with his sister and then went to his Sigma Kai frat house with Zana.

Kaylee Gonzalez posted an Instagram photo carousel around 9 p.m. showing herself and her roommates with the caption. One lucky girl to be surrounded by these people every day. Seems like a very sweet post. It does and you know me. I'm not a big social media person, especially when it comes to posting things about myself and what I'm doing. That's just not something I'm into. But this is a case Gibbs that played out, you know, where social media was very prevalent, right? These are younger people. Yeah.

They have a social media presence like most people their age do. and so you can tell a lot about someone or, you know, see how they live their lives in certain ways through their social media. Kaylee and Madison went out together that night. All of the roommates were home by 2 a.m. Madison and Kaylee were together on the third floor. Zana and Ethan were together on the second floor and two other roommates. Dylan Mortensen and Bethany Funk were also still up.

Dylan's room was on the second floor with Zana and Ethan, and Bethany lived on the first floor. At 4 a.m., Zana accepted a door dash order. Now, you know Gibbs here, we dooredash a lot. We always doordash when you come. You do. For recording night. Yeah.

But 4 a.m. To most of us is not door. dash hours. No, that's pretty, pretty late. Or pretty early, depending on how you look at it. But when you're in college on the weekends, you know, 4 a.m. is maybe not that big a deal. That'd be prime door dash time. Yeah. I'm sure they, uh, there's some door dashers around some of these big colleges that make, uh, pretty good money. We're delivering those insomnia cookies and things like that. Those are good. Shortly after 4 a.m.,

Dylan was woken up by strange noises in the house. Police believed the murders occurred between 4 and 425 a.m. The killer went up to the third floor and fatally stabbed Madison and Kaylee. Dylan heard what sounded like Kaylee playing with her dog in one of the third floor bedrooms. A short time after that, she heard who she thought was Kaylee saying, There's someone here. It's possible this was Zana on her phone. because record showed she was on TikTok at about 412 a.m.

At 4.17 a.m., security cameras less than 50 feet from Zana's room. Picked up the sounds of Kaylee's dog barking and distorted audio of what sounded like voices or a whimper followed by a loud thud. Investigators believe Zana was still away when Kaylee and Madison were killed. and as the killer was either coming down the stairs or leaving, he encountered Zana and he ended up killing her. He then killed Ethan, who was asleep in Zana's room, just before 4.30 a.m. The surviving roommates were texting back and forth

and appeared to grow frightened as their calls and text to the victims went unanswered. At 4.20 a.m., Dylan started calling her roommates, Zana and Kaylee and had a brief 41 second call with Bethany. Before calling Zana again, she called Madison, then texted Bethany. No one is answered. I mean, I just want to take a minute, Gibbs, and, you know, kind of break this down. And there are a couple of things that jump out at me. Number one, these two roommates who end up surviving this, you know, unbelievably horrible

attack and series of murders, they're scared. Yeah. They're hearing things, but like we always talk about, they don't know exactly what they're hearing. But then I think as they're trying to get in touch with their roommates, nobody's answering, okay, they start to get more and more worried. But the other thing that jumps out at me is the perpetrator and how bold this person is. I mean, how many people are in this house?

Exactly. And are we talking one person, multiple people? I mean, these are all questions, obviously, that the police are going to have to ask. But to go into a house with, let's say, six people in there, that really either take some incredible planning or you just don't care about what could happen to you. And or confidence too, right? Yeah. And maybe a overconfidence, who knows. I'm just thinking how frantic that situation had to be for Dylan and Bethany, trying to figure out what is going on. And what noises are we really hearing? Bethany tried calling Madison, Zana and Ethan. Dylan texted Kaylee. Kaley, what's going on? Bethany replied, yeah, dude, WTF. Dylan described seeing someone in like a ski mask almost. They continued texting back and forth. The following messages were published by CNN, Bethany to Dylan, STFU. Now, I don't use a lot of these abbreviations, but having younger people in the house,

my kids, you know, about this same age, I've come to know what all this stuff stands for. Dylan texted back to Bethany, like he had something over his head. and mouth. I'm not kidding. I'm so freaked out. And then Bethany texted back, so am I. Dylan indicated her phone was about to die. And Bethany texted, come to my room, which was on the first floor. She texted, run. Dylan texted to Bethany. I'm scared though. And then Bethany said, yeah, I know, but it's better than being alone. So Dylan ultimately went to Bethany's room. But you can put yourself in the their shoes, Gibbs. Yeah.

Dylan is scared to death and unsure if she should try to make this move to Bethany's room or not, she ultimately does. It's like a scene from a horror flick. Yeah. You're in the house. Someone else is in the house. It seems like something bad might be going on, but you don't know what and you don't know where they are.

The girls made another round of calls at 4.27 a.m. Dylan texted Kaylee, please answer, at 432. Bethany accessed Snapchat at 434 and Instagram at 437 before all phone communications stopped for about three hours. Prosecution filings previously asserted that Dylan and Bethany woke up around 1023 a.m. To discover their messages were unanswered. But the transcript shared by the defense shows phone. activity more than two hours before they started reaching out to their roommates and more than four hours before calling 911. Well, that's a long time to wait before you call 911.

Well, I think what it's possibly doing or what the defense, right, would want to show is that maybe they're not being 100% truthful than what they've said. Maybe they know more than what they have told. Bethany's phone activity started with a call to her dad at 7.30 a.m. Dylan accessed several social media apps. Bethany talked to her dad and took photos. Dylan was on Instagram for over two hours and spent time on Snapchat and Inde. But my question is, you know, how unusual is this? Right. Have you ever lived with roommates before? Yeah. I, I have, I, I have. have too. And it wasn't unusual, let's say, in a bigger environment, a bigger house to not see that

person for hours and hours at a time, especially in the morning. You're like, okay, they're still sleeping. Right. They were obviously up at four or whatever time. So, you know, college kids sleep in when they can. You're not going to go in their room and check and things like that. No, but you do have to look at it in contrast with the fear, right, from earlier. Not to mention the fact that, okay, there's a guy in a ski mask and you know what the defense is going to say. So what? You see a guy in a ski mask and then you just get up and you get on Instagram.

Yeah. And you don't go check on anybody. You don't make a phone call. Well, and that's where the 1023 AM kind of mark comes in because that's when Dylan began reaching out to her roommate. She texted Kaylee, please answer, and wrote to Madison, are you up? She texted Kaylee again, are you up? They continued using their phones for the next hour, including messages and calls,

until Bethany called 911 at 1156 a.m. to report Zana unconscious. Now, pre-cell phones, pre-texting, right, you'd have no choice, really, but to get up and go check on somebody. Sure. But that's not how kids kind of operate today. No. You know that. You have kids that are in their 20s.

And the one thing that I have really noticed is even though we're in the same house a lot of the time, instead of just walking down one floor or into another room, I'll get a phone call or a text. And okay, it's just the way things are, I guess. It is. It used to bug me. Like, can't you just come here and talk to me real quick? Yeah. But now my wife's doing it.

And she's of my same age. So what are you going to do? Two other friends could be heard with them on the call. Friends were called to the house because they thought one of the victims had passed out because she wasn't waking up. One of the roommates said per ABC, one of our one of our roommates who's passed out. and she was drunk last night and she's not waking up. Oh, and they saw some man in their house last night. And let's be honest.

You know, right out of the gate, again, some of this information is strange. It seems so. If you saw a man in what you described as a ski mask, do you get up, investigate it? Maybe not because you're scared, but then do you just fall asleep? all questions that are going to be asked, responding officers found the four victims. Dylan Mortensen told authorities that in the middle of the night,

she saw a man in black clothes and a mask, walking past her in the house. She had opened her bedroom door a second time when she heard what she thought was crying, coming from Zana's room. She heard a male voice say something to the effect of, it's okay, I'm going to help you. She opened her door again,

and saw the masked figure. She described him as at least 5 foot 10 and not very muscular, but athletically built with bushy eyebrows. She said she stood there frozen and in shot. She didn't recognize the man who walked toward the back sliding glass door of the home. She locked herself in her room.

Now, Dillon acknowledged that her memory was a bit blurred since she had just woken up and may still have been, drunk. That's probably a strong possibility. Yeah. If you were in college with me, it's almost a certainty. Police found a horrific crime scene. They found blood pooled on bed comforters. It was on the walls, the floors. Some of the victims had so much blood on them, officers at first could not see additional injuries. Some of their faces were so badly damaged, they were unrecognizable.

Kaylee and Madison were found in one of the beds on the third floor. They were covered by a pink blanket that was covered in blood. A knife sheath was found on the bed next to Madison. There was a large pool of blood near Kaylee's midsection and blood on the walls. The bodies appeared to have lost a significant amount of blood. And I would say so. I mean, we're describing what sounds like just, a horrific scene where blood is everywhere.

Madison had wounds to her forearm and hands and a gash under her right eye that went from the corner of her eye to her nose. Kaylee was struck in the face by an unknown object. According to her report, Kaylee was unrecognizable as her facial structure was extremely damaged. That's so brutal.

It is and it's hard to talk about, but, you know, you have to get into the weeds, right, to paint the picture of what type of monster we're dealing with here. You know, the murder of four young people would be bad no matter how it happened. Yes. But these were very savage, horrific murders. They both suffered stab wounds to the liver and lung.

Kaley had two brain bleeds, a stab wound behind her clavicle. that cut the vein and artery and injuries connected with asphyxiation and blunt force trauma. So two girls who, you know, everybody described as wonderful and nothing but glowing things to say about them, they're in college, they're trying to prepare for, you know, the next chapter in their life. They have families at home who love them and they are just savagely murdered. And again, I think it's one of the things that scared me so bad when this information started to come out about the murders. Well, obviously, whoever did this is an absolute monster.

Yeah, there's no doubt about it. Kaylee also had unique injuries described as a horizontal pattern. It's not clear what caused those injuries. Zana's body was on the floor. Ethan was found on Zana's bed. Zana had over 50. stab wounds. Most of them were defensive. There was evidence of a struggle in her room. Her fatal injuries were stab wounds to her lung and heart. Investigators believe Zana was still

away. When Kaylee and Madison were attacked, she was most likely eating the food she had ordered. She possibly heard something and started going upstairs to check it out. Blood was found on the third floor stairwell. Ethan Chapin's fatal injury was a stab wound under his clavicle that severed his subclavian vein and artery. His jugular vein was also severed. Officials confirmed that Ethan's blood seeped out of the side of the house before his body was found. Out of the house. Yeah. And I do remember this when the news broke, that it was reported. at some point, but it's hard to fathom. Now, the body does hold quite a bit of blood.

It does. But to travel along the floor and reach a point where it can escape to the outside of the home. Man, if that doesn't paint a chilling picture, I don't know what does. It's scary. That's all I can keep thinking in my head, how scary this event had to be for those individuals. The murder weapon was a K-bar knife, which has never been found. However, DNA was recovered from a tan-leather knife sheath left on Madison's bed. A shoe print believed to be from the intruder was found outside one of the Survivor's rooms.

Now, you and I have talked about K-bars quite a bit. Yeah. That is your kind of favorite knife. It is. You bought me one for Christmas. I love it. it's something that, you know, the armed forces, especially the Marines, I think, have used for a very long time.

But it's also a very dangerous night. It is. It can do quite a bit of damage. It's got a longer blade. Authorities reviewed surveillance from the area and saw white Hyundai Alontera, passed by the victim's house three times before entering the area a fourth time at 4.4 a.m. the car came back into view at 4.20 a.m. speeding off. So, I mean, I think you'd have to say it gives that, you know, police very early on,

they have some things to work with. They do. They know what type of weapon was used. They don't have it. But the killer apparently left behind a sheet for the knife that had his DNA on it. They also have some shoe prints. and they have this white Hyundai Alantra. Moscow police asked authorities to look for white alantras.

On November 29th, a Washington State University police officer. Search cars matching the description at the university and found one registered to Brian Coburg, a PhD criminology student. So the murders take place at the University of Idaho, but they find this vehicle. and then the visual at Washington State University. But really, that's what, seven, eight miles apart?

Yeah, I think it's just a little over seven miles apart, maybe a 10-minute drive or so. It's not far at all. Yeah. Which does explain why Washington State University police officers would be looking out for a white elantra. Sure. I'm assuming they're thinking, if that happened there,

it could happen here. Yeah, and we're not very far apart. Brian Coburger was born on November 21st, 1994. He was raised in a working class town near the Pocono Mountains of Pennsylvania. His father was a maintenance worker, and his mother worked in the school system. He has two older sisters. Brian was described as awkward and withdrawn. He did well in school, but faced personal challenges, such as allegedly using drugs.

in his late teens, he struggled in social situations and had limited success in relationships. Some classmates described him as creepy towards women and others said his feelings of isolation and rejection by women were similar to those who associate with in-cell-like ideology. This is according to AETV. And, you know, this whole in-cell thing comes up in. more and more cases, especially, you know, involving men, killing women for this very reason. You know, the rejection, the lifelong problem with the opposite sex, leading to what, a hatred of women and revenge?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's all kinds of things around it. Coburger allegedly wrote on forums during his youth about experiencing depression. He posted on the forum Tapatov, previously known as Yuku. According to the New York Times, 16-year-old Coburger wrote in 2011, I feel like an organic sack of meat with no self-worth as I hug my family. I look into their faces.

I see nothing. It's like I'm looking at a video. game, but less. Okay. Doesn't seem like the typical writing of a 16-year-old boy. No. Organic sack of meat. He wrote about feeling disconnected from society and experiencing anxiety,

depression, depersonalization, a lack of emotion, and the constant thought of suicide. Now, some of those things, unfortunately, are not all that uncommon. A lot of people have anxiety. A lot of people experience depression. Sure do. But I don't know how many people feel that when they're looking at their family, it's like looking at a video game only less. So literally their family is less to them than a video game.

Pretty distant. Koberger commiserated with others about suffering from a little understood neurological condition called visual snow in which a person's vision is obscured by scattering dots. Okay. I have never heard of that before. It sounds like it would be awful to live with. Now, I've seen stars. You know, I've had weird things happen to my eyes, but they've gone away.

Yeah. If you had something like that that was constant, that would be a problem. That would be very problematic. Now, he didn't use his name on the website, but the post included a reference to his birthday. His username, XR, matches an email address for Koberger that appeared in a 2009 leak of accounts from an online payment company. That account listed his location as Effort, Pennsylvania, and that's where he grew up. And some of the post also contained details that Friends said match their recollections of his behavior

and struggles at the time. In one post, Koberger wrote that when he looked in the mirror, he felt he did not deserve to live. Nothing I do is enjoyable. I'm blank. I have no opinion. I have no emotion.

I have nothing. Can you relate? And it was said that these feelings started around the same time as his visual snow symptoms, and that was in September of 2009. Kind of like how we were talking earlier. and the Patreon episode

about the Manchurian candidate. I feel like these would be some of the symptoms a Manchurian candidate would have. Well, at the very least, you'd have to say that, you know, it doesn't seem as though life is going well for him. He's not doing well. No.

His friend Thomas Arndst recalled about this time, I know it was something that really bugged him. He was basically to the point where he was neurotic about it. Coburger wrote that he tried anti-migraine medication, visited a neurologist, and went on a strict diet to resolve the problem. By 2012, it appeared he was learning to live with the condition. He wrote that he had accepted it and was coming to terms with it. Koberger graduated from high school in 2013, and he started using heroin around that time.

Now, I don't know if he went straight to heroin, but most people, people do not. It's a pretty big jump. I mean, it's very powerful. Not that you couldn't, but I think a lot of people who use drugs maybe work their way up to heroin. Two high school friends,

Casey Arns and Bree, who asked to keep her last name private, told CBS that Coburger was overweight and bullied until his senior year when he lost about 100 pounds. Well, 100 pounds is a lot of weight to lose. It is. is a lot. Casey recalled he was real thin. It was after that weight loss that a lot of people

noticed a huge switch. Her brother, who was Coburger's friend, said he was bullied by him. When Brian would get kind of angry with him, he would gaslight him and get physically aggressive. Coburger would sometimes put her brother in chokeholds. Brie also claimed that Coburger started using heroin, saying, you just saw him. him becoming more self-destructive. He really stayed secluded. Coburger wrote in May 2018 to his longtime friend Jack Baylis, via Facebook, I only used when I was in a deep suicidal state. I have since really learned a lot. Not a person a lot could convince me to use it. So by that point, he claimed he had been off heroin for two years.

I was like, to him, he had a purpose to use it when things were really, really bad. But he also learned from it and hasn't used it at that time for two years. According to him. Yeah. Now, I don't know what heroin does to you. I will freely admit and happily admit, I've never tried it. I just know it's not good. To me, it's one of those really scary ones that can kill you if things go wrong.

Yeah. You get a bad batch or take too much and can be addictive. in an October 2018 message, Koberger wrote that he was interested in studying criminals and would like to be involved in capturing violent criminals, but it could be difficult to get a job like that. And we said it, right? He was studying criminology.

I think that's the other very fascinating part of this story to many people. And here you have a person studying criminology in the hopes as he put it to someday help catch violent criminals. Yeah. But who ultimately becomes a violent criminal. Exactly. And we'll talk about it, you know, but did he use his knowledge, what he learned studying criminology in the commission of the crimes?

Brian's friend Casey last saw him in 2017 at a friend's wedding. She hugged him and told him he looked good. and she was proud of it. His friend Brie recalled that he was focused on earning a criminology degree because he wanted to change the world and do something positive. She added, people were not his strong suit. And I think through his criminology studies, he was really trying to understand humans and trying to understand himself.

In 2018, Koberger completed an associate's degree. in psychology at Northampton Community College. He earned his bachelor's at DeSales University in 2020, and then he did further graduate studies at DeSales and completed those in 2022. In the summer of 2022, Koberger moved across the country to begin a PhD program at Washington State University in Pullman, which is, like we said, less than 10 miles from Moscow. Idaho. So like you said, he's developing the knowledge of all this criminology. And that's what gets him out to just across the border from Idaho. Yeah, I mean, it's a pretty long move, right? He's

moving all the way across the country. But the other thing that, that I want to talk about is, right, this is a guy who had some issues. You'd have to say that. We, you know, detailed out some of them. but doesn't it seem Gibbs like he's putting his life on track? According to him, he's not doing drugs. He gets his associate, then he gets his bachelor's. And he starts working on a PhD. That's, you know, it's some pretty heady stuff. It looks like you said.

He said it in the right direction. He took classes in forensic psychology and was interested in the anti-social behavior of famous killers. He watched videos and read, articles about how killers thinking act. You know who else does that? You, me, a lot of people interested in true crime. Now, you can look at it on one hand as, you know, trying to figure out how these people can do what they do, which is, I think, the way that most of us consume true crime, right? We're appalled by the killer's actions, but we're also fascinated because how can

somebody do this? What led up to this? But I just wonder if that's how Brian Koberker is looking at it, or if he's almost in some ways, you know, revering some of these killers and studying them for different reasons. Well, what we know now, pretty sure he was probably doing the latter. Yeah, I would agree with you. I think most people would as well. His former DeSales professor, Dr. Catherine Ramsler, later noted to News Nation, he had a fascination with the criminal mind. She worried that what he learned may have informed or inspired his actions. So, and it does kind of go with what we were just talking about. Also, Dr. Ramble, is a pretty well-respected person within her field.

Yeah. Morph and I actually had her on an episode of criminology. But she also comes up in many of the cases that we do. Because of her knowledge. Yeah. So, I mean, to have her as a professor, that would be kind of amazing. Koberger posted what appeared to be a university-approved survey on Reddit, asking participants to provide information,

to understand how emotions and psychological traits influenced decision-making when committing a crime. According to later released documents, students and professors at WSU told investigators that Koberger seemed creepy and intense, with one predicting that he could become the type of professor that harassed and stalked students. That's a pretty profound observation of him.

Well, obviously, you know, these students and professors who said that, they're going to turn out to be right. Prosecutors would later say that Koberger spent hours scrolling through through social media accounts of young women at WSU and the University of Idaho and may have become fixated on the victims living in the off-campus house. Because that's a big part of this case, right? Why did Brian Koberger choose to attack the residents of this house in Moscow? Out of all the places that he could have chose, why this? Why this one? And why the people in this house? But it also sounds like he's stalking right through social media.

One student who was in class with Koberger told police he acted aggressively and stared at classmates when he wasn't dominating group discussions, the class often sat through Coburger's lengthy verbal sparring with professors. He tried to come across as the strongest, smartest, most important person in the room. The student had a bad feeling about Coburger from the moment she met him at orientation in the fall of 2022. Coburger would trail her after class, block her path when she tried to leave Comberger. conversations and stare at her with such intensity. She started keeping a tally of their encounters.

She caught him aggressively staring at her up to nine times in one class. He also followed her after class. That's so creepy. You know it's bad when it gets to the point where you have to keep a tally of how many times this is occurring every class. Police documents stated, Coburger always seems to want to be in the general area of her and others in the program that didn't want to have anything to do with him. You know why most likely they didn't want to have anything to do with him?

Because he was creepy. Yeah. They all said it, right? This guy is staring at women. And I think this is where some of the in-cell talk comes in. Right. You know, when he goes through high school and let's say doesn't have great. girlfriends and things like that.

He doesn't know how to talk to these women. He might like them. He might want to go out with them. But what does he do? He just sits there and stares at them. Making everybody very uncomfortable. Well, it's not the way to get a date, that's for sure.

And then if they did talk to him, he would, sounds like from which her accounts were, he'd block them from leaving. You don't think that's going to creep them out? You're not going to let me leave this conversation? Other accounts shared similarities,

mainly that Koberger's presence kept people on it. You ever been around somebody like that who you just felt like something was off and they were on the verge. Like they could go either way. Yeah. They could go off at any minute. Yeah. Been around somebody like that.

He was known on campus for his unblinking stairs, which his colleagues, described as his attempt to assert dominance because everyone knows the most dominant person is the one who can hold a stare at the long. That's right. Just do a blink contest. Or a staring contest as it's most commonly referred to. One faculty member said he had a keen interest in her undergraduate assistant. Koeberger would stand by the assistant's desk looking over her shoulder as she worked. Another professor was asked to walk the assistant to her car after work just because of Koberger's behavior. One student said that whenever she looked up, Koberger, who was a TA in her class, was always staring. However, he rarely spoke to students.

She also felt he would time his exit so he could leave when she did and follow her to her car. professors and faculty received several complaints about him. Multiple WSU staff met before Christmas of 2022 to discuss their students, but discussions about Cobur dominated the meeting because he was said to be highly problematic. That is not good. No, and how can he not be if he's getting all these complaints, right, levied against him? apparently they swap stories and debated pulling his funding and his TA position. One of the teachers said at the meeting is quoted by CNN, mark my work. I work with predators.

If we give him a PhD, that's the guy that in many years when he is a professor, we will hear is harassing, stalking, and sexually abusing his students. And this is the one thing that just keeps jumping out in me. People in his life or not even in his life, but people around him, they are seeing all kinds of signs. It's like the writing is on the law. Right. Now, did they think he was going to be a killer? No, probably not, but they knew something was going to happen. It was just a matter of time.

One professor claimed Coburger tried to prevent him from leaving his altar. He described this as power tripping. Koberger stood close enough to students to trap them at their desks. He also physically blocked female students trying to leave a professor's office. Students and professors described instances where they had to step between Koberger and others. One faculty member wouldn't leave a female student alone in an office with him. So I was like, no female student should ever be left alone. with him. No, and even he had problems with some of the males, too, right? Or they had problems with him.

In August 22, a university of Idaho student said, she met Koberger in an apartment lobby and directed him towards a pool party. She became uncomfortable with this staring and awkward conversation. And that goes back to my thought, right? I don't believe that this is a guy who ever was comfortable talking to him. And so what did he resort to? Like, staring them down, walking after them, stalking them, basically.

It's interesting about the abundance of information about him coming out. Yeah. Now, I don't know how much of this was known ahead of time by everyone. I'm sure certain people knew certain things, but obviously after the murders. and after he's identified, then it's all going to, you know, come pouring out.

I mean, we've done cases and I've heard people come forward like, oh, yeah, he was like this or she was like that, but not on the level of this. This is almost like everybody he encountered. Yeah. Had something to say about him and none of it was good. In another instance, a male co-worker at a bookstore on WSU described acting as a buffer. between his female coworker and Coburger who frequented the store. Police also learned that Coburger applied for an internship with the Pullman Police in the fall of 2022.

In an essay, he wrote that he wanted to help rural law enforcement agencies with how to better collect and analyze technological data in public safety operations. Coberger's WSU classmate Benjamin Roberts told 48 hours that Coburger, seemed comfortable around other people. He was very quick to offer his opinion and thoughts. He would describe things in the most complicated, perhaps academic way possible. It was like he was trying to convince people that he knew what he was talking about. And I'll be honest, I've known a lot of people like this.

Sure. Yeah. They want you to believe that they're smart. And they're trying everything in their power to make you believe that, whether they are or not. Some of them aren't that smart, but they're talking in a way that might make you think they are. But it also comes off the exact opposite they're hoping for. A lot of the times it does. One of Coburger's neighbors in Pullman recalled speaking to him about the murders.

He said he brought it up in conversation. He asked if I had heard about the murders, which I did. And then he said, yeah, seems like they have no leads. Seems like it was a crime of passion. At the time of our conversation, it was only a few days after it happened, so there wasn't much details out. Police learned that Coburger registered his car in Washington State on November 18, five days after the murders, and received a new license plate. The car had previously been registered in Pennsylvania, and as Pennsylvania played, was set to expire on November 30. his phone was tracked heading to Moscow before the attack and returning to Pullman.

All right. So they already are looking at him, right? He owns a white Hyundai Alantra. But let's face it, there probably are quite a few of those. Yeah. Around. But when you add in all of the strange things, people have said about Brian Coburger, okay, that would make police want to look at.

him further and then obviously the phone tracking. I mean, once they learn that, he's got to be really high up there on their list. Meanwhile, on November 30th, 2022, families and classmates held a candlelight vigil at the University of Idaho. Ethan Chapin's mother, Stacy, said per ABC, we are eternally grateful that we spent so much time with him. That's the most important message. that we have for you and your families to make sure that you spend as much time as possible with those people because time is precious and it's something you can't get back and that is absolutely true you can't buy time you can't and you can't get back moments that you miss wish we could we all do yeah Kaylee's father Steve Gonzalez noted that Kaylee and Madison

died together in the same room, in the same bed. On December 7th, police revealed to the public that they were looking for the driver of a white 2011-2013 Hyundai Alontera seen near the victim's house on November 13th. Brian Coburger was stopped by the police in Indiana on December 15th for traffic violations. After his semester ended in December, Koeberger and his father drove across the country together in the Hyundai Alantra to get to Pennsylvania for the holidays. The Hancock County Sheriff's Office and Indiana State Police said there was no information at the time on the suspect in the Idaho crimes or specific information on the white Alantra. The state police added, the trooper having learned the two had been stopped minutes before by a deputy from the Hancock

county sheriff's department who he knew was working just down the interstate from him used his discretion and released the two men with a verbal warning. So at this point, there's no reason to retain this guy. No, I mean, as far as the police in Indiana, I don't think they know anything. I mean, it would be different if there was a warrant out for his arrest, but that would come up, right? and any quick, easy lookup. On December 27th,

police recovered a discarded cue tip from Coburger's parents' house in Pennsylvania. The Idaho State Lab determined the DNA from the trash belonged to the father of the person who left DNA on the knife sheet. Brian Coburger was arrested in Pennsylvania on December 30th, 2002. At the time, police declined to say,

when he became a suspect or what brought him to their attention out of, you know, all the thousands of tips that they had received. After he was arrested, Koberger was taken to a state police barracks to be interviewed by Moscow officers, the Idaho State Police, and the FBI. They chatted about the WSU football team, his studies, and his TA position. He said he understood they were engaging in small talk. But he would appreciate it if they told him what they wanted. The detective told him it was because of what happened in Moscow. When asked if he knew what happened,

Koberger said yes. When asked if he wanted to talk about it, he responded, well, I think I would need a lawyer. Well, at least he's smart about that. I'm sure he learned that in his studies. Oh, yeah.

I would think a criminology major, you know, he's got a few degrees going for a PhD would understand the value that an attorney would bring. But what do you think in if you're the police? Do you know what happened in Moscow? Yes, he knows people were murdered. Do you want to talk about it? I think I would need an attorney.

Yeah, I kind of would feel like, hey, we got our guy. Yeah, and that doesn't mean a person's guilty, but police tend to lean that way, I think. You're not getting off radar. Let's put it that way. He asked what questions they had for him and if his parents and dog were okay. He finally said he wanted to speak to an attorney and his interview ended. Public defender Jason Labar shared a statement on behalf of Koberger's parents on January 1st, 2003. It read, first and foremost, we care deeply for the four families who have lost their precious children.

There are no words that can adequately express. the sadness we feel, and we pray each day for them. We will continue to let the legal process unfold. As a family, we will love and support our son and brother. We have fully cooperated with law enforcement agencies in an attempt to seek the truth and promote his presumption of innocence rather than judge unknown facts and make erroneous assumptions. We respect privacy in this matter as our family and the family suffering laws can move

forward through the legal process. I thought that was a very well-written statement. I mean, I think if you were Brian Koberger's family, what else are you going to say? You know, obviously you feel for the victims, the victim's families. Yeah. But you probably also do not believe that your son is capable of having committed these, you know, vicious, horrible murders. You just really hope not, right?

Well, don't you have to stand by him? Yeah. Unless until it's proven. And then even after it's proven, you know, parents will still stand behind. It doesn't mean they agree with what their kids have done, but they're not going to abandon them, some of them. I think that's another nightmare right there. When you know your kid did something unbelievable. And it's proven.

Yeah. Beyond a doubt. Yeah. That would be a. extremely tough to to live with, no doubt. Co-Burger was extradited to Idaho on January 4th and was charged with four counts of first-degree murder and one count of burglary. Police also searched his apartment and found a reddish-brown stained pillowcase,

a black glove and hairstrings. Okay. So, you know, they had some stuff to work with. They started to zero in on him to the point where they went to. to Pennsylvania, right, to get some DNA. It turned out to be his dad's, but they knew that somebody in that family left that DNA on that knife sheath. And then they find some, you know, compelling things in his apartment. But I think that's it for the first part of the Idaho college murders. You know, like we said, Gibbs, this is a, it's a scary one to think about,

you know, whether you have kids in college or not, maybe more so if you do, because That is something that does worry me. But take the college atmosphere out of it. The thought that a stranger could enter your home where you have, you know, let's say multiple people in the home sleeping and then start viciously attacking and killing people. That is a very frightening thought. It is.

And I'm thinking about the two young ladies that. that luckily survived. And how that is probably, not probably how that has changed their life, their world. Oh, scarred them. Yeah.

No, no doubt about it. Because you're always going to have the, you know, why did I live? The others didn't. There's going to be survivors guilt, things like that.

But in part two, we'll cover additional information about the crime that was released in the months after Coburger's arrest, his plea deal, and speculation on a potential motive. Because like we said up front, right, that's a big thing in this case.

What was his motive and why did he select the victims he did? So that's it for part one. But we got a voicemail. You want to check that out? Let's hear it. Hey, Mike and Jimmy. This is Val from Delaware. I've been listening to you guys for a few months now,

started listening to the old stuff and the new stuff. so I switched back and forth. But I just wanted to call it's Christmas Day. It's the first year my two kids, who are 21 and 19, are doing their own things for the rest of the day. So I'm going home, going to listen to your crying all the time, and reminisce about my fiancé. You all have gotten me through some hard days

with him and my dad being gone here at the holidays. So I just wanted to thank you guys and wish you a Merry Christmas because you're really getting me. through. So, and I also hope you all have a happy new year. But have a great one. Bye. Oh, thanks so much for calling in. We appreciate you. We love you. We do. And I'm glad the podcast can help. I know that, you know, the holidays are a really tough time. They're emotional. They are. And if we can help out in any way, we're glad we can. Makes us feel good. All right, buddy, that is it for another episode of

true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gabby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.