True Crime All The Time - The Menendez Bros Finale

Episode Date: August 27, 2017

This is the continuation and finale to the Menendez brothers murder saga. In episode one we covered the background of the family and the murders of Jose and Kitty Menendez. In episode two we cover the arrest of Lyle and Erik Menendez and the circumstances around each arrest.Then we dive into the circus that was the trial of Lyle and Erik Menendez. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the evidence against the brothers and the shocking revelations that come out during the trial that will become the basis for their defense. Lyle and Erik take the stand during the trial and both their actions and words have to be examined. The case put forth by the prosecution and the stance taken by the defense has to be dissected.You can support the show by going to patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit our website at [e-mail] Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome everyone to episode 42 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson, Gibby. How are you today? And if I was any finer, I'd be illegal. I thought you already were illegal. So it's only if I leave the confines of the monitoring system that is attached to my ankle. As long as you stay within that, you're good.

Yes. It's a good radius, you know. They give you a little bit. of freedom. A little bit. All right. So let's give out our Patreon shoutouts. We have Magda Anna. We have the Minds of Madness, Gibbs. Great podcast. Yeah, great podcast. If you haven't checked it out, true crime podcast, Tyler Allen, Beck, Jordan, you know, who we've known since we started this podcast. Long time. You know, she does some social media for them. So good peeps. Yep, there are great people.

out their podcast. It's fantastic. Don O'Connor, Marcella Fletcher jumped out at our highest level. Thank you. Gabrielle Abe. Say that right? I don't know. Probably not. She will tell me. I always have my fingers crossed. I hope she does tell you. She will. Yeah. She just reached out to me the other day. I should have asked her how to pronounce her last name. Does you want me to do it? Get it right? Yeah. Well, let's wait and see if we have any currency conversions. Because people are really starting to like your investment strategy, your currency conversion. I make you a lot of money. So we have Shane Sanky, Mary Avery, and then Mandy. I know. Old Mandy. Not Old Mandy. Oh, Mandy. Yeah, like Barry said. You said Old Mandy. Oh, Mandy. Okay. Sorry about that, Mandy. We're not calling you old.

Gibby doesn't know lyrics, movies. What else? Basically. How money works. everything. Now, I'm just giving you a hard time. And then going back into the vault Gibbs, oh, and we got a new little vault sound. And he's so proud of it too. I am, but I have to give credit to Katie on Twitter, put out the vault sound for us. She did. It was cool. Thank you. To use. Yeah. And so I want to single out Stacy Angel. Stacy's been with us from the get-go, big time contributor can't say enough great things and big time thanks to Stacy. Thank you, Stacy. And then we had a couple of PayPal donations this time Gibbs.

We had Heath, Wise, and Pia Johansson. Heath and Pia. Thank you. So I think sometimes people forget that, you know, you can support us on PayPal too if you want and that's great. But we appreciate everybody that supports us. If you want to support us on Patreon, it's easy. Go to patreon.com slash true crime all the time.

time. Make sure you visit our website, true crime all the time.com. Getting ready to have some new merchandise coming Gibbs with the new logo, t-shirts, mugs, all the good stuff. Hashtag team gibby. Hashtag team gibby. So look for that in, I don't know, two or three weeks probably would be out. And then real quick, just want to talk about a couple of new podcasts that I'm doing. If you haven't checked out criminology, you know, check that out. There's three episodes out right now on the first season, which is on the Zodiac. And then the second one is sex, love, and murder. That's one that I'm doing with Aphrodite Jones. And give them both a try. I know a lot of our true crime all the time listeners have. The feedback's been really great. Yeah. They're a good,

good podcast, man. Yeah. Make sure people listen. Don't forget to check my new one out called Just Gibby. Just Gibby. It's just Gibby. It's just Gibby talking about just. movies that 10 seconds in, he forgets what happens in the movie. Yeah. Who's in the movie? I also share my currency conversion methods. What year the movie was made. It's good stuff.

You know, you joke about that, Gibbs, but I know there's something in our future. There's going to be something. It might not even be true crime related. We're going to do something. Something. I just haven't thought of it yet. There's just so much Gibby to go around. has to be harnessed and delivered in a very precise way.

Yeah, got to be careful. Can't let it all out one time, man. And then I want to give a big shout out thanks to Maggie, uh, writer, researcher. She did a lot of work on this Menendez brothers two-parter. So big shout out to her. And don't forget about true crime all the time unsolved. After you listen to this, jump over. Uh, there's a great episode out about the Pinyon Pines murder.

Man, it's a good one. It really is. It goes back to 2006, but there's activity going on with it today. I mean, in real time. Yeah. So it's a very interesting case that is unsolved, but hopefully very soon to be solved. Let's put it that way. The last thing I'll say, Gibbs, is the Q&A episode, which I know we've been teasing.

We're late with. It's going to come out not this week, but the week. of Labor Day. Labor Day. Probably on a Wednesday is what I'm thinking. And don't forget to end of this episode or have some voicemails. All right, Gibbs. So let's jump in to the Menendez Brothers Part two.

Part two. Part D. You know, where we left off in episode one, we talked about the Oseal tapes, right? The therapist that Eric had basically spilled everything to this Dr. Oseo had it all on tape. the police get the tapes, and now they're ready to go after Eric and Lyle. Yeah, we sure heard a lot about that on social media. Definitely. So as we pick up part two, we're on March 7th of 1990.

You know, things are starting to fall apart for Eric and Lyle. We know that. And Lyle is flying into L.A. with a couple of his friends from New Jersey. And the reason that he's coming back, Gibbs, we touched on in episode one. You know, Eric had lost like $40,000 to this guy that he was trying to put some type of concert on with. And the guy basically, you know, swindled him out of this money. But Lyle knows as he's taking this flight to L.A. that the detectives want to talk to him. Because on the plane, he hands his friend $1,400 and a business card with his attorney's name on it.

And the money was meant for his friend to be able to. bail him out of jail, if needed, and the friend could go to this attorney as well as Dr. Oseill because they knew all the details of what was going on. Now, at the same time, Jose's company, they're trying to figure out still if the murders of Jose and Kitty had anything to do at all with the company. Because that had to be a thought, Gibbs. You know, these people had to be somewhat worried that maybe the murder of Jose had some connection to the company, you know, did they have to be worried? Was somebody going to come after

them? But a lawyer at the company finds out through the Beverly Hills PD that the brothers are suspects in the murder and that they're soon to be arrested. So I'm pretty sure at that point, all the fears of, you know, the people that work at the company, the owners, the higher ups, those are, those all go by the wayside. So Lowe's flying back into L.A. But Eric is actually in Israel at this time, he's playing in a tennis tournament. And Lyle decides to go out to lunch with some of his friends. The police are tailing him. And at one point, Lyle figures out something's going on. And as he's driving by his house, he sees a car with flashing lights on. So you know the alarm bells are going off in his head, Gibbs. So much so that he ends up crashing into a van as he's trying to make an

escape. But there's all kinds of police around. They swarm Lyle. He's arrested, along with the two friends he had with him in the car, and Lyle is booked on charges for the murders of his parents and then taken to the L.A. County men's jail. The L.A.D.A. holds a press conference later that same day, telling the media that the reason for the murders was pure greed. So that tells you right there, Gibbs, that they already have the motive for this murder established. They've already have Lyle in custody. They don't have Eric yet, but they're going to try them both.

It was also said that they were going to add special circumstances onto the charges. And this would mean that Eric and Lyle could end up on death row at San Quentin. We've got to talk about some people that are at San Quentin because we profiled a number of them. So you have, you know, Ed Kemper, Scott Peterson, which we did, Charles Ing, we did. And you have Charles Manson. Let's not leave him out. Some real fruitcakes, man. Yeah, you got some, you know, it's a scary group of individuals to think about being in the same facility with.

So you can imagine, man, the Mendez family, they're probably freaking out right now because they probably don't think that these boys had anything to do with this. And they're probably in shock. how could these two boys be guilty of some horrific crime like this? Well, against their own parents. Yeah. I mean, that would be hard, I think, for any family to come to grips with that two kids would murder their own parents. Yeah. It's really hard to wrap your head around that.

And I'm sure the mom didn't share with the rest of the family her private thoughts that she had with her therapist, how she thought the boys were sociopaths. Yeah. I don't know if she did. did. I never saw anything about that in the research Gibbs. Like you said, we know she told her therapist that she was scared of the boys. She thought they were sociopaths. But I don't know if she shared that with other members of the family or not. I'm thinking not because they rally around Lyle and Eric and are very quick to support them. So like I said, Eric is in Israel. Everybody at this point is starting to wonder, what is he going to do? You know, is he going to try to stay in Israel,

hide out there? Or is he going to come home and face what he already knows is going on? But we talked about Eric in episode one, right? I think Lyle was the alpha. Eric was more of a follower type. He was very dependent on his brother. And we also talked about the incredible bond that these two shared. And at one point, Eric actually calls home to his family to get some advice, to ask them what he should do about this situation. And he was told the best thing he could do was to come home and turn himself into the police. So he does. He takes a flight to Miami. Then he takes another flight to L.A. And upon arriving at L.A., he gets arrested. And then they book him into the L.A.

County Jail. We have to talk about the case against Eric and Lough, because at this point in time, police are still in the process of building it. You know, they're trying to put together evidence to link the boys to the crimes. They still don't know where the guns had been purchased. They have Judalon Smith that we talked about in episode one. That was Oseal's mistress. And she was able to give the police a lot of details that helped them fill stuff in. And one of the things she told them was that the guns had been balled.

in San Diego. And it was said that this was a town that Lyle knew very well because he had played a lot of tennis tournaments in San Diego. So Detective Zeller, what he does is he gets a list of all the gun stores around that area and they start the search. Now, it doesn't happen quickly, but eventually they stumble upon a big chain store called Big Five. So detectives ask a clerk for record. about any recent firearm purchases. And what they find is that two 12-gauge shotguns had been purchased on August 18th, 1989, for just under $200 each.

Now, when they got the paperwork, they noticed that it was signed under the name of Donovan J. Goudreau with the San Diego address. So police tracked down this Donovan J. Gudro is obviously they want to talk to him about this gun purchase, and it becomes quickly apparent that Goudreau was in New York City on the day that the guns were bought. And he has proof of that.

Now, as they're looking over this paperwork, they realized that the address that was given was fake. But the driver's license number actually does match Goudreau's driver's license. But the signatures on the form don't match Goudreau's driver's license. don't match Goudreaux at all. I mean, they're not even close. So there's all kinds of red flags, right, in this transaction. They know it's not Goudreau who purchased the firearms.

So the detectives get a court order to get some samples of handwriting from both Lyle and Eric Menendez. So the signatures match. So now we have a link between the brothers and the murder. Yeah, I mean, Gibbs, you're right. This is the first physical link to Eric and Lyle Mnandez. Nendez, and it's really a big piece of the puzzle that the police need to move forward. Now, the boys are pretty smart with what they have and what the family that's supporting them have.

They go all out and they get the best legal defense team that their money can buy. Well, yeah, they're well healed. So their lives are on the line. In that situation, you've got to pull out all the stops, right? You can't skimp on your legal defense when your life is on the line. line. So they get separate attorneys. And Eric ends up hiring a woman named Leslie Abramson, a well-known attorney. And she had a history of getting acquittals in murder cases. Kind of tenacious. Yeah, she was very tenacious. It was said that she was even kind of intimidating

to some of the judges. I mean, she wasn't a very big woman. She was kind of a tiny woman, but a spitfire, right? One of those types of people that is going to go all out, is going to do whatever it takes. I guess what I'm trying to say, Gibbs, this is the kind of person that you might want on your side if your life is hanging in the balance. Yeah, it sounds like she's going all out for you. Now, one thing about Leslie Abramson, she was a very staunch opponent to the death penalty. And so she took on death penalty cases. And like I said, her success.

rate was pretty high. Defending Eric Menendez, defending someone like Eric Menendez in a very high profile murder case, this was not something new for Leslie Abramson. She had done this many times with very high profile cases. Over a dozen. Yeah, I think, you know, it was well over a dozen for sure. But she wasn't cheap, man. No. That kind of representation never is. You know, I think, think it was in the ballpark of somewhere around three quarters of a million dollars, Gibbs. That's a boatload. It's a chunk of change. Yeah.

Today's dollars. So $750,000 Gibbs in 1990. What would that be today in your estimation? 1.6. 1.6. Okay. Yeah. I think you're getting more reasonable.

I was expecting you to say $6.7 million somehow. Nah. It's been a down. for a while. So are you re-adjusting your model? I'll throw a coupon in, though. Chick-fil-A, McDonald's, something like that. The arraignment for Lyle and Eric

occurred on March 26, 1990. Both charges carry special circumstances for which you could be sentenced to death. Eric Galen Menendez, how do you plead? I'm guilty, Your Honor. Thank you. Mr. Joseph Lyellmanendez to the charge and the amended charges and the amended complaint,

how do you plead? Not guilty. So both brothers plead not guilty. And one thing we have to talk about Gibbs is how the brothers act during this arraignment. Because a big deal is made out of it. You know, it was said that they acted very smugly. They were arrogant. Some people actually said that they liked the media attention.

that they were getting. It wasn't like they were being accused of murdering their parents. It was more like they were attending a hearing for a traffic ticket, something that they would just have to take care of, but would go away and they could get back to their lives. Yeah, they were acting like it was some nonchalant event. Yeah, like it wasn't that big a deal. Yeah. Where did I pay my fine so I can go home? Right. And I think one of the things that struck a lot of people as very odd is how to, How immature the brothers acted at this point in time. I mean, they're sitting before a judge and at some points, they would laugh and giggle. But after the charges were read and they pled not guilty, it was announced that they were

going to be held without bail on the first degree murder charges with special circumstances pending a trial. So that's one thing, Gibbs, that their money could not get them out of, right? couldn't buy their immediate freedom while they were waiting for trial. So then we have to talk about Lyle a little bit. His defense attorney was a woman by the name of Jill Lansing. Now, she was not as high profile of an attorney as Leslie Abramson, but she was still very adept and qualified.

But what you have to realize is, you know, it wasn't just these two attorneys by themselves. I mean, they had a hired team around them. You know, Jill Lansing hired a man named Michael Burt, who was an expert in death penalty law. And Abramson hired Marissa Morrissey, who had been an LA public defender. So that amount of money Gibbs buys you not only a really good attorney. It buys you experts, specialists. It provides you the ability to do testing. you know, on your own dime that people without money wouldn't be able to do.

It buys you a really good defense is what it buys you. It does. That's the best way to sum it up, Gibbs. Now, the person that was chosen by the prosecutor's office to prosecute this case was a woman by the name of Pam Bozanage. And she had recently worked on the retrial of the McMartin preschool molestation case. And Gibbs, I don't know if you remember that. That was a huge deal. That was a big case. I remember that. You know, that was born out of the, the whole satanic panic thing.

You know, not only was there accusations of molestation, but then it came out, you know, some of the kids were talking about there being dungeons and, you know, strange tunnels. And, you know, it was a very strange case. Let's put it that way. Now we have to go back to the tapes made by Dr. Jerry O'Zill of the sessions where the brothers talked about the murders. And the court was looking at these tapes to see whether or not that they could be used in court, because it comes back around Gibbs to the whole doctor patient confidentiality argument.

So the fighting about the tapes, you know, went back and forth for a little while. you know, there was an argument about the fact that since Lyle had threatened Dr. O'Zill, that kind of made the confidentiality aspect a moot point. You know, obviously the other side was arguing the opposite. But while this fighting was going on, it was revealed in court that sheriff's deputies had found a cut in the link of the ankle chain Lyle was wearing, which people took to mean that, he was trying to escape. And at some point Gibbs, Eric Menendez gets the shit kicked out of him. And the sheriff's department has to come out and say that, you know, that they were looking into the matter of, you know, who beat this guy up. It's kind of funny, actually.

But, and imagine it trying to figure out what prisoner beat up Eric Menendez. Sure, there's a few people that raised their hands. I think there was a lot of people that probably wanted to beat him up. Right. Now, he wasn't a pedophile. So he wasn't at the, on the lowest rung. He wasn't a sexual assaer. He was just a rich kid on TV.

So your thought is that that alone probably made him a target for somebody looking to up their cred. Absolutely. You know. You get a lot of credit for that. Yep. You're right. I mean, he was all over TV that both the brothers were. Yep.

And you know that the other prisoners knew who they were. Oh, they knew. So on August 6th of 1990, the judge actually comes out and says that all the tapes can be used as evidence now. And that's a huge win for the prosecution. It was because of what was on those tapes, right? The information on those tapes was so damning that it was thought that it could swing the balance of the trial one way or another. So it doesn't last long. In 1991, the appeals court overturns it.

which I think goes to show you how long they were fighting over these tapes because the appeals go back and forth. So Gibbs, it would not be until June 4th of 1992 when the California Supreme Court would hear arguments around the issue of these tapes. And the defense was arguing that the prosecution wasn't entitled to all of the tapes and only the tapes where documents. where Dr. O'Zill was threatened, it should only be the tapes that show that Dr. O'Zill was threatened that the prosecution should be entitled to. And ultimately, this is how the California Supreme Court rules. So in the end, the prosecution only gets one tape.

And that is a tape that covers the October 31st and the November 2nd sessions. and on this tape, Dr. Oseal is threatened. He wasn't threatened on the other tapes, and the court ruled that there wasn't enough evidence on those other tapes of Oseal being threatened to warrant breaching the doctor-patient confidentiality barrier. So this is not good, man,

because now the public is going to hear some of this tape, but more importantly, their family's going to finally hear some of this tape, and that can't bode well. I think it's both good and bad for the brothers, right? It's good that the prosecution doesn't get the one tape where they really go into detail discussing the murders. Because that would have hurt. I mean, that would have slammed dunked them. But like you were talking about Gibbs, it's bad because the one tape that the prosecution does get and are able to play in court, it shows a lot to the family and the people that are supporting the menaceous.

Nendez brothers, and they lose a lot of support at that point. Yeah, their public opinion drops. Yeah, big time. But like we said, this fighting over the tapes took a long time. So Eric and Lyle had been in jail for three years now, waiting for their trial to start. It was said that they were segregated from other prisoners in a special section. So I don't know how Eric got to hellbeat out of him. Maybe that's why they got separated. Yeah, maybe it is, or maybe that happened before the segregation, I don't know. But Eric was said to have been suicidal at this point while he was in custody. And he was given Xanax to deal with his anxiety. I mean, are we handing out Xanax to prisoners? Oh yeah. Probably even better stuff now. Man. Zanax. Oxi. I don't think they're

handing out oxy. But don't you find that a little strange? Yeah, yeah. That he's being prescribed. Hey, some that type of drug. Some. Some. There's better medical there than you and I would get. Man, I don't know. I'm telling you. But it's in prison that Eric starts meeting with the priest. And he starts talking about some pretty traumatic events, which happened to him when he was a kid. And it's these revelations that are going to pave the way for a very controversial defense that the brothers are going to use during their trial.

And on top of that, Eric starts to meet with a doctor for weekly therapy sessions. You know, at some point, while they're awaiting trial, their cells are searched. And in Eric's cell, authorities find a 17-page letter that Lyle had written to Eric. And this letter talks about plans to escape, where they might go. But also in the letter, Lyle tells Eric that he would never testify. against him. And two weeks before the trial, the defense attorneys announced details of the defense and said that after years of sexual, physical, and emotional abuse, that there had been a series

of confrontations and the brothers had struck back in self-defense when they felt their lives were in danger. And people were shocked to hear this story and felt that it was just a last-ditch attempt by defense attorneys to fabricate some sort of, come up with some sort of explanation, nationalization for what happened. So in May of 1993, the judge in this case, he makes a pretty big decision, Gibbs, because he decides that Eric and Lyle are to be tried together at the same time. And a lot of this, I think, came out of the fact that it was going to save time, it was going to save money. And this whole process started out with 1,100 people being called for jury duty.

1,100 people in a pool. And the potential jurors gives they're asked to complete a questionnaire. And the questionnaire has 122 questions on it. And a large number of these questions deal with sexual abuse as a child and family violence. We know what the defense is going to be in this case. Now, one thing that is important to point out that although the brothers are going to be tried together, they would each get a separate jury. So what that meant was as the trial went on, each jury would have to be excluded if the evidence only pertained to one brother or the other.

That's kind of tough. They're on a courtroom like that, you know? You would think it would be. Like, everybody would have to shuffle out while they went over whatever piece of evidence it was. So, you know, let's say it was evidence related to Lyle. You know, Eric's, jury would have to leave the courtroom. Right. Until that whole part was over and then they would come back. And I don't know if that's how they did it or if they just went over all evidence against the one and the other.

No, I can't remember. I don't either. But my assumption is that they would have had to have, you know, kind of taken things in a certain order. Yeah. I don't think they- Just excuse the jury that didn't need to be in there. They would have had to have.

So the makeup of Lyle's jury was seven men, five women, and arrogant. jury was made up of eight men and four women. Now, up until this time, the defense strategy was a secret. Nobody knew what they were going to use to combat the evidence that the prosecution had against the brothers. Would they simply say that the prosecution didn't have enough evidence? There was a lot of speculation. Gives, if you go back to that point in time, right? Remember, you've got all the television coverage. You have pundits almost, I mean, basically nightly talking about this case. Legal analysts, what are they going to do? How are they going to do this and that? But in June of 1993, Eric's lawyer makes a statement at a pretrial hearing that both brothers were going to confess to the murder.

And this was a big deal. Because remember, up until this point, they had pled not guilty. they had maintained their innocence, but this is where the bombshells start coming out. Because the defense strategy is going to be to blame all of this on the two victims, Jose and Kitty. And the defense is going to center around the fact that both brothers were victims of child abuse. But we have to, we have to dig into this a little bit, Gibbs, because, and it's a very sensitive subject, right? child abuse occurs and you have to be very careful about how you approach a situation where anyone says they were abused in any way. But in this case, we have to talk about it because there really hadn't been as far as I could tell any complaints in the past, any proof of any

type of abuse. Well, let's go back, right? Jose was very domineering and you guys. You could definitely say that he probably was verbally abusive, but we're talking about a very specific type of sexual abuse, right, committed on a child. So the defense is going to have the task of proving these stories that the brothers would tell about very specific incidents of child abuse. And on the flip side, the prosecution is going to have to show that they weren't true. So the attorneys for both brothers consulted with a man named Paul Monez. And this guy wrote a book, Gibbs, about how to defend abused children who kill their parents. And the book that he wrote centered around the fact that kids kill their parents after years and years of being silent about

abuse. He also talked in the book about how murders in this situation usually show a great deal of overkill. And the other fact that he stresses is that the murders usually occur when the parents are vulnerable. Now, if you look at these three things, aside from the abuse, which we don't know, we're not sure if that's real or not, the other two things happened, right? There was a lot of overkill and the murder. And we went into great detail about it in episode one.

You know, they went back out to their car. They reloaded. You know, they fired many more shots than they needed to. The kneecapping. I mean, you would say that's overkill, right, Gibbs? Big time. And then the other thing we talked about is how vulnerable Jose and Kitty were in that moment, right? Half a sleep, dozing, relaxing, you know, in your own home with somebody that has access to your home.

You're pretty vulnerable in that situation. I would say. Oh, absolutely, man. When I spend the night here? You feel very vulnerable. No, you do. Oh, okay. And I should.

You should. Me and my K bar, man. But all of these things fit if the abuse story is real. I mean, they fit this guy's book kind of to a T. Yeah, it's a good defense if it's all real. Yeah, but that's the question of this whole case. Did the brothers suffer sexual abuse at the hands of a Jose Menendent? does, right? Let's break it down because that's what it comes down to. Sure. And they're going to play

towards the audience, which is the jury, right? The defense attorneys are going to make sure they dress the proper way, right, to look like the innocent boys, not men, but make them look more like boys. Well, and it's, they are men at this point. But you're absolutely right because when you see them in court, they're not wearing a three-piece suit with a tie. They are wearing sweat. that make them look like boys younger than what they are. And make no bones about it gives. I mean, all of this stuff is calculated, right? Defense attorneys, they don't just willy-nilly make these type of choices.

You know, it's very calculated what you're going to wear in court. They want you to portray a certain image and these boyish type of sweaters portrayed young and innocent. Now, the other thing that the defense used, used was a diagnostic tool developed by a therapist. And this tool is a 34 item checklist. And it centers around the effects of childhood sexual abuse. And there are many things on this checklist Gibbs that actually do apply to both of the

brothers. You know, there's things on here about fear of sleeping alone, you know, stealing, which we know Eric did, creating a fantasy world. We talked about in episode one, Lyle and his stuffed animals and kind of creating some type of fantasy world. So there are some things on this tool that suggest that the brothers exhibited certain behaviors that could mean that they were victims of childhood sexual abuse. And the defense is going to use this tool. or use this checklist as a tool to aid in their defense.

So Gibbs, we talked about the brothers at their arraignment, right? Being cocky, giggling, you know, they looked a certain way. By the time that this trial rolls around, they look very different. You know, it was said that Eric looked sickly. And one thing we haven't talked about Gibbs is the fact that Lyle was going ball. And he had plugs or something. type of fake hair is very well known. People talked about it back in the day. There were jokes made about it. And, you know, I can commiserate, at least on that part. Absolutely. I'm follically challenged.

A little bit. Just a little bit. A little bit. A little bit up top. So when we get to trial, who from the Menendez family is at trial supporting Eric and Lyle now after the tape has come out? You know, we talked about the fact that they learned things that they didn't either previously know or didn't want to believe. So what you had is there were some family members from their dad's side. Not a single person from their mom's family showed up. So the trial opened on July 20th, 1993. And the prosecution set out talking about how horrible these murders were and how, Eric and Lyle Mnandez killed their parents while they were vulnerable in the one place that they should have been safe, which was their house.

And let's not forget, Gibbs, this whole thing is playing out on court TV. We spent some time talking about in episode one. What a big media circus this was. I mean, they were people following this case day in and day out. The prosecution made a big deal about all of the money that Eric and Lyle had spent. you know, detailing out what they had bought. And this is something that they would continue with throughout the trial. But the other thing that they did was try to point out all the different things that Eric and Lyle had lied about.

Because what they were trying to do was tie in the fact that if they could lie about this or that, then the brothers could easily lie about being abused sexually. as children. Because I think that's what the prosecution had to argue, that this sexual abuse was not real. The brothers had made it up. And why would they make it up, Gibbs? There's one big reason. And that's to avoid the death penalty. Sure. And that's what his attorney was really good at doing. She was good at getting people off of the death penalty. I think we said that. She represented about 12, 14 high profile cases up to that point. And her success rate was very high. She knows what she's doing.

Yeah, I don't think we mentioned it, but I think there was only one case that, now I don't want to say that she lost, but one case where she was not able to get the defendant freed from a death sentence. You know, they might have still got a sentence. Yeah, I'm thinking when, you know, when they talk about her success rate, it's not that the people got off. Scott free. Right.

Yeah, it was just the fact that she was able to make sure that they didn't lose their life. Yes. But that being said, she was a hell of an attorney. So she probably got some people off as well. The investigation into the murders of Mary and Jose Menendez revealed that Jose Menendez suffered a shotgun wound to the back of his head, as well as four other shotgun wounds. Mary Menendez suffered 10 shotgun wounds, including a contact wound to her left cheek. With the investigation nearing seven months in duration, the Beverly Hills Police Department

finally received a break in the case, information which led to a search warrant on the home and office of Beverly Hill psychologist Jerome Oseo. Dr. Oseo will testify in October 31, 1989, the defendant, Eric Menendez, said that we did it. Dr. Oseo asked him if he meant that he and Lyle had murdered his parents. Eric Menendez responded yes.

We will prove to you that Lyle Mennandez planned, this murder, provided false identification for the purchase of two shotgun, set up an alibi, acquired ammunition, repeated the alibi to the police shortly after the crime, and then set off to spend the money which he had acquired through the killings of his parents. Based upon this evidence, it will become apparent that this murder was unlawful, unjustified, and wholly premeditated, and that it was accomplished through a conspiracy into which Lyle Menendez entered with his brother and that but for a few mistakes they made, this was almost the perfect murder. Thank you.

So I think that sums up really well, Gibbs, the prosecution's strategy and the facts that they have to work with. Now we talk about the defense. And the defense has to come out in the beginning and state that, yes, Lyle and Eric did kill their parents, but here's the reason why they did it. Eric Menendez was the abused son of wealthy parents. He killed his parents because he could no longer endure their abuse and had to stop it. When he did that, he unwittingly made himself a threat to everything his parents valued.

He put himself in mortal danger. When he sensed that danger was imminent, his instinct to survive took over. Because his parents were wealthy, the prosecution tells you he did it for the money. What do they say when poor kids kill? So that was Leslie Abramson, because you can hear her say Eric. Right. So at this point, she's representing Eric. She's only talking about Eric.

But the story is going to be the same, that the brothers conspired to kill their parents because they were afraid, because they had suffered years of abuse. sexual abuse. Now, the other thing that was added was that Eric and Lyle were also scared of this family secret coming out and ruining their lives, essentially. They didn't want people to find out. This is what was being said by the defense as well. And as hard as it is, Gibbs, we've got to talk about this molestation that both Eric and Lyle claimed because it is the central. theme to this whole case. So Eric said that he had been molested for 12 years. And Lyle would say that he was molested as well, but the extent and the duration of the molestation that he endured was nowhere

even close to what Eric claimed that he went through. Because I think Lyle says that it was about two years that he went through this at a pretty young age. We're talking five, six years old when it started. So the defense story is that the brothers confronted Jose about the abuse. And it was the defense's contention that it was after the brothers confronted Jose that Jose threatened them, that he would kill them to ensure that the secret nests. never got out. So Gibbs, this is where you have the fear that the defense is saying Eric and Lyle fell because they're saying their own dad has threatened to kill them. And it's right after this that they drive to San Diego by the guns and commit the murders. And one interesting fact, Gibbs, is that

during this trial, Lyle's attorney would often refer to Eric and Lyle as children. Well, I mean, she's trying to set the stage. Yeah, like I said, it's a calculated maneuver. I mean, these kids were not children at the time that they made the decision to kill their parents. It's all subliminal messages. Yeah, Gibbs. I think she's trying to create an image for the jurors that, you know, these were two scared kids. And so she's picking and choosing her words very carefully and using them for effect. Now, one thing that came out was that the brothers had never talked about this abuse until after they were in jail.

So the defense had to explain why that was. And their explanation was that there was just too much shame that the brothers were feeling. They never confided in each other. But Gibbs, I go back to what we talked about in episode one. We touched on it here even. supposedly they had this unbelievable bond and you would think going through something so traumatic that that would be something that they would share with each other. But again, I have to be careful here because survivors of this type of abuse, I'm sure feel a tremendous amount of shame, guilt, you know, all types of different feelings that are really sad because. they shouldn't be feeling those things because they didn't cause any of it, right?

They're the victims. Yeah, but they don't know that when it's happening. But the other thing is I wonder, you know, when this was all happening later in life, too, but prior to the murders, they were seeing the doctor, therapists. Yep. Right? I wondered, I mean, did they not have any conversations about this? Because if it met to save their lives from going to get the death penalty,

they could give the doctor permission to open the files and share anything that they had in there. I don't know. I mean, I just... No, it's a great point that you're making. But obviously, the prosecution thinks that the reason why they never talked about it, the reason why it didn't come out until after they were arrested, after they had been in jail... Sure, never happened. For a few months is because they concocted the story to try to beat the death penalty.

Now, we talked about Pam Bozanich as the prosecutor, but there was another prosecutor in this case, and his name was Lester Kuriyama. And the thing that you have to say about Lester is he was much more open with his contempt of the brothers than Pam was. You know, he wasn't pulling any punches. It was very easy from his statements to see that he was implying. that the brothers were lying, you know, that they were conning everyone around them. You know, and he comes right out and says, you know, these boys murdered their parents because they were afraid they were going to get cut out of the will and they could not take the chance of losing out on all that money. And again, the target of the murders was Jose.

Their mother kitty was murdered because they couldn't afford to leave her alive as a witness. I mean, this is what the prosecution is coming out and saying. Now, Abramson, who was Eric's defense attorney, she was pretty graphic in some of the details of the abuse, essentially saying that Eric had been groomed by Jose to provide him with sexual gratification. And, and again, Gibbs, I mean, and we're going to talk about it at the end. I don't know what's real. I don't know what's not real.

if any of that is true, it's absolutely horrible. Yeah, it's disgusting, man. But the problem is, like you said, nothing was ever mentioned until after they were arrested. So it's natural for people to kind of discount it. No, I think it is. The prosecution did for sure. Well, the jury, I don't know. I mean, that's the thing, right?

They're going to try to make sure the jury doesn't discount it because they're trying to keep them off the... You're talking about the defense? Defense. Yeah. Yeah. Now, the defense is going to argue that... just because they didn't talk about it doesn't mean it didn't happen. No, and that's, I mean, that's, that's a legit statement to me.

No, there's some truth in that. We touched on it. I think there are, there are a lot of victims out there that don't talk about what they've gone through. But to your point, the timing of this, of everything that happened, coupled with all the stuff we talked about in episode one, right, the spending of all the money, all that when you add it all in together, there's no doubt that public perception was that Eric and Lyle were saying what they had to say to save their ass from the death penalty. I mean, would you agree with

that, Gibbs? I mean, just speaking about public perception, I think that's the truth. Oh yeah. I think they thought they were trying to get their get out of jail free card. This wasn't something that people were just hearing on the nightly news. They were watching the testimony. And we're going to get into it a little bit, but, you know, if you remember when Eric and Lyle get on the stand, there's a lot of crying, there's a lot of emotions, I'll call it, and there were a lot of people that thought that wasn't real, that that was put on. And Kitty was not left out of this either, Gibbs, by the defense. They made some claims that she was abusive as well. And there was a very specific story that came out about Lyle, who we talked about, had lost his hair, and he actually

lost it at a very early age, you know, like 12, 13, 14 years old. So that would be traumatic. I didn't lose mine until much, much later. I mean, that would be pretty traumatic for a 14-year-old, 13-year-old, whatever he was. Yeah, I think it would be. And the story came out that, you know, Jose wanted him to get a hairpiece or plugs or whatever it was he had because he thought it would be better for him. Better for him or better for Jose? Well, I think you could make the argument both, right? Better for Lyle.

Imagine a 14-year-old kid. What are you, a freshman at that point? Maybe somewhere around there? Middle school, junior. Middle school, yeah. Eighth grade, ninth grade, something like that. You know, imagine being bald or balding. Much easier to go through school, I would think, not being teased because you're going bald.

Today I would just shave my head, man. Well, today, yeah, because it's in. Yeah. With my physique, I'd look badass. But going back to what you said about Jose, I think there's something there too, right? Jose, the type of man he was, he would not want his image tarnished by the fact that Lyle didn't look apart. Absolutely. I don't think there's any doubt about that.

It could have been more about him a little bit, you know. But the story that came out about Kitty was that she and Lyle got in some type of argument and in the process, she ripped his hair off. Well, so does that make her a bad person? Or does that mean, we don't know what he was doing to her. I mean, I know growing up, I had some pretty good arguments with my parents. And you probably deserve to be taught a lesson in something. certain way. Yeah, I deserve everything I got, no doubt about it. Yeah. I mean, if that's,

I don't know what other stories they had about Kitty. I didn't research every single one of them. If that's all they had, that's pretty weak in my book. The other argument gives, I think they made about Kitty is that she possibly knew about the abuse and did nothing, right? Stood idly by. And obviously, if that was the case, that would make her a bad person. But again, it all goes back. to the central question, did the abuse really happen? Because if it did, I still don't think it means that Jose and Kitty should have been murdered, but it certainly changes the perspective of this trial. Well, at that age that they were at, they could have just left. Let's talk about that. We haven't walked away. We haven't even talked about that yet because the defense attorneys are calling

Eric and Lyle children. And at this point, they're in their mid-20s. But, but, But even when the murder occurred, they were old enough to just walk away. Now, it might not have been the easiest thing for them to do, right? Financially, they didn't have the type of money that would have allowed them to continue leading the lifestyle that they were accustomed to. Now, I think it's a good topic to bring up Gibbs. You know, technically, Eric was still 17. He was close to turning 18 at the time that the murders occurred.

Now, Lyle was definitely an adult, but there's a lot of factors there. Eric and Lyle didn't have any money of their own to speak of where they could just, you know, set out and be on their own, especially given the lifestyle that they were used to leading. The other thing we have to talk about is if the abuse was real, you know, how much of that was in Eric's head especially because if it's true, he endured by far the most abuse. So could he have gotten to the point where he couldn't walk away? Yeah, you just don't know how much brainwashing went along with all that and fear. So I think it's something to talk about. I don't want to make a statement saying, oh, they could have just walked away. Oh, you're right.

It may be true, but I don't know that for a fact. And we don't know. One of those things easier said than done. Yes. But I think it's a good point to talk about. Now, the prosecution, aside from bringing up the fact on a lot of different occasions that they thought the abuse was made up, they called a number of witnesses. They called the bodyguards that had been hired to watch over Eric and Lyle. They called the store clerk who sold them the shotguns.

They called some computer experts who went through Kitty's computer. We talked about that in episode one. where it came out that, you know, the will had been deleted and then rewritten. And all of these witnesses were used to show that the brothers had a pattern of lying because that's what the prosecution had to do. They had to prove that Eric and Lau Menendez were liars. Well, they're discredited them. Yeah, to discredit the sexual abuse claims.

And the prosecution played the 911 call. And we played some of that at the very beginning of episode one. And a lot was made out of this 911 call because at this point, everybody knew it wasn't real. The brothers had already said that they committed the murders. So everything that was said and all of the emotion on that 911 call was fake. And everybody knew it. That played right into the prosecution. Sand.

Well, it did, Gibbs, because what the prosecution tried to show. to the jurors through the use of the 911 call is that, and especially in the case of Lyle, he could turn it on, he could turn it off. He could play a part when he needed to. So when you say it plays into their hand, you're absolutely right. Because now they're trying to correlate the fact that, okay, now Lyle's playing a part about being a sexual abuse victim. And they would do the same thing with Eric about the story of, you know, Eric running around in the yard. Remember, he tried to headbutt a tree multiple times. So again, they used that to their advantage saying, you know, this was all an act. This was all put on. Now, I don't know about Eric. I don't know how

much of that was put on. The prosecution even called the boat captain from that fishing trip that the family took. And the boat captain relayed that, you know, the family didn't talk to each other. They were on different parts of the boat. But then you have the defense who comes back and says, yeah, that's true. And the reason why is because at that point, Eric and Lyle were afraid that Jose was going to kill him. Feed him to the sharks. I don't know if they knew how he was going to kill him, but the defense maintained that they were scared for their lives. And then Detective Zeller gets on the stand. And he tells us, story to the jury about the brothers coming to the house the next morning after the murder

asking for their tennis rackets. So Gibbs, they're afraid. They don't know who out there killed their parents right at this point in time. But yet they're going to come up to the crime scene. They're not going to be allowed in because police have control of it. But they're trying to get detectives and police to let them get their tennis rackets. Weird request. I mean, how do you think that played to the jury? Not well. Even the brother's own friends testified against them because, you know, they used their friends as some false alibis.

Yeah, so the friends kind of ratted them out saying that Eric and Lyle had tried to set up alibis with some of these people. So that couldn't have looked good to the jury either in regards to the brother. No, I mean, your own friends are discrediting you? Not good. And then we come to Donovan Goodro. And remember, that was the name that the brothers used to buy the shotguns. And what comes out at trial is that Donovan Gudro was at Princeton at the same time as Lyle Mnandez. And Guadro had actually been kicked out of Princeton for stealing.

And his wallet with his ID in it had been left behind in Lyle's dorm room. But that's not that big a deal, Gibbs. we already knew that Lyle and Eric had Donovan's ID, and that's how they were able to buy the gun. The interesting part of Goudreau's testimony is that he states that at one point in time, he confided to Lyle that he had been molested as a child. And on the stand, Goudreau says that Lyle never came back and said that he had any similar. experiences or anything like that. Now, I don't know about that one, Gibbs. You know, if that happened to me, would I, would I tell a roommate or somebody that I didn't know very well? I don't know. Even if they confide it in me, I'm not sure I would share that information back. Yeah, I don't think I would.

I mean, it's an, it's an interesting part of the trial and witness statement, but I don't know that it it really rocks my boat. Yeah. I think there's some form of the victims feel embarrassed and shamed, and it's not something they would put out there, even though they shouldn't feel that way. But. Well, and especially to, you know,

I don't know how well he knew this guy. I mean, that's not the type of information that you're just going to offer up to anybody. That's something, man, that's, you got to really know somebody and feel safe and comfortable and trust them. Yeah. And it's still questionable at that point.

I mean, you can dive into. the abuse with some of the Catholic Church issues that were in the news way back when, right? And look at all those men that were young adults or adults that never said anything to anybody until one day they just banded together and felt that enough was enough. But I think they would have taken it to the grave with them if they could have. Yeah, until a point came along where they felt safe enough to talk about it, I guess. Yeah. But the star witness for the prosecution Gibbs was undoubtedly the doctor, Jerry O'Zill.

So the defense tried to discredit Dr. O'Zill. They talked about the fact that he had been facing a possible revocation of his license because of some bad conduct that he had had with other patients. And the defense really harped on the fact that Lyle and Eric were. telling Dr. O'Zill whatever he wanted to hear. Essentially, you know, they were making up a story, but Dr. O'Zill on the stand told the story of the killings as the brothers had told it to him. And part of this was that the idea for the killings came from a TV show. We mentioned at Gibbs, the billionaire boys club. They wanted to be free of Jose, who controlled every,

every aspect of their lives. They were just sick of it. And again, Oseille talked about the fact that they were afraid that Jose was going to cut them out of the will. They'd be cut off from the only supply of money they'd ever known. And he talked at length about the threats that Lyle had made against him, basically saying, hey, if you tell anybody about what we've told you, I will kill you. So the defense spent three months, Gibbs, sharing their side. And everything they did was to show that the brothers had been in imminent danger of their lives. They were fearful. And that's why they committed the murders.

Lyle testified on the stand for nine days. It's a long time to put a suspect on the stand. It is a long time. Really opening them up for cross-examination. I mean, it's just, that's a long time for. for anybody to be questioned nine days. And he spent a lot of this time talking about not only the molestation that he had endured in the two years, but he spent a lot of time talking about what happened to Eric from the time he was five all the way up to the time he was 17 years old

at the time of the murders. They cried a lot on the stand. And something came out in Lyle's testimony where he accused his mother of being sexually abusive when he was 11 or 12 years old. And he was very detailed in his testimony. Now, the prosecution cross-examined him, tried to poke holes and everything he said. And then you get to Eric. Eric looked, I mean, he was gaunt. He looked pale, disheveled. He just didn't look like the same person at all.

And obviously Eric testified at length about the abuse. He said that he and Lyle killed their parents over this abuse. And we talk about being very detailed in the testimony. And at one point, Eric talks about putting cinnamon in his father's tea and coffee because he had heard somewhere that it made semen taste better. Now, I don't know where the heck he heard that from or who's given out that type of of advice Gibbs, but there's a couple things to that that I want to talk about. Cinnamon has a very distinctive flavor. Yeah, I just want to say, I think you would know if it was in your coffee.

I know I would. Not calling the guy a liar, but there's definitely something to that where the story just doesn't ring true to me because I just don't know how you get away with putting that into somebody's drink and them not noticing it at all. But it would be the prosecution's cross-examination of Eric that would provide one of the biggest bombshells in this case, because they're asking him about buying the guns at the Big Five store. And they're talking about originally going to buy two handguns. And Eric went into great detail about, you know, how they looked at the handguns, through the glass case, how they even selected two that they were going to buy.

and it was only at that point when they were getting ready to buy them that they realized that California had a 15-day waiting period. And according to Eric, they were so scared for their lives that they couldn't wait that long. So that's why they switched and bought two shotguns because there was no waiting period. But the prosecution had done their homework Gibbs. And on the stand, Lester Kuriamma asks Eric, now, are you sure you're telling the truth about buying these hands? handgun. And Eric answers, yes, definitely. I mean, this is, this is what we did that day. Curiama comes back and says, quote, Mr. Menendez, did you know that Big Five stopped carrying handguns in March of 1986? And all Eric could say was no, I don't know that. So that was huge, Gibbs, that had to have been an

unbelievable point in this trial for the jury. I think it sealed it. There's no doubt at this point that Eric's caught in a huge lie. So if he's willing to lie about that... Everything just went out the window. In the mind of a juror, he's willing to lie about all the other things. So any sympathy that he had going for him, he lost it. I would agree with you.

I think there were probably people, and I'm speculating here, but there were probably people on the jury that up to that point had sympathy for the brothers, felt bad that they, you know, had possibly endured this type of sexual abuse, but it might have been this one point in the case where everything turned. Or there could have been a bunch of jurors that thought they were lying from the get-go. I don't know. Curiamma caught him in a couple of other lies. I mean, they were smaller.

but they probably just helped to drive the point home. So Eric's defense attorney, Leslie Abramson, has to try to turn this around. I can just imagine Gibbs. She's sitting at the table. She understands as soon as the words come out what has just happened in this case. But the only thing that she could really do about the handgun bombshell is turn it into the fact that Eric wasn't really sure what store he was at. I just don't know who was buying that one, Gibbs. I really don't. Nobody at that time.

So the prosecution has presented all of their evidence about why they believe the brothers killed their parents. The defenses come back. They've presented all of their ideas and evidence of, well, I don't know how much evidence, but they presented all of their theories about what type of abuse that Eric and Lyle endured. And after six months, the jury gets the case and they end up deadlocked. And so this whole trial, this whole spectacle that took all this time, cost all the tax, you know, cost the taxpayers so much money, it ends in a mistrial. But obviously the prosecution's not going to just let them walk. A new trial starts up in 1995. And this trial would be a little different. I mean, for one, this judge wouldn't allow cameras. There was only one jury to hear the case for

both Eric and Lyle. And when all the evidence and all the arguments are presented again, this jury comes back with a guilty verdict. So the Menendez brothers don't get the death penalty. They both get life without the possibility of parole. So Lyle got sent to Mule Creek State Prison. And Eric got sent to Pleasant Valley State Prison. Pleasant Valley. Doesn't sound rough. No, but I'm sure it is. It's no plan to escape, number one.

Number two, it's ridiculous to say that they shouldn't be together because they would commit other crimes. The probation report indicates they are not a danger or a threat to anyone. They have not committed any other crimes. They did not conspire over the six years they have been together in the same smaller institution, the county jail. and the probation department recommends that they can be kept together and that they will be an asset to any institution they are in. And this is just an attempt, a last-ditch attempt, by the prosecution to inflict even greater punishment on them than what the law prescribes. And I see it as exceedingly cruel and heartless. I don't hear them making statements like that about serial killers, about baby rapists.

but because these are highly notorious defendants, thanks to y'all, they think it's a free-for-all for inhumanity. Did I hear her say that they would be a benefit to... Oh, yeah, a benefit to any institution that they... Would be sent to. She also said baby rapists, which I thought was very, very strange. It is a strange thing to say. But anyway, she's very riled up about the fact that

corrections officials want to separate the brothers after they're convicted, she felt like it was inhumane. Wasn't what they did inhumane? Well, y'all? Hell yeah. Y'all. Y'all come back now, you hear? Mm-hmm.

So, Gibbs, in wrapping up this case, I think we have to talk about some things that happen later on. Both Eric and Lyle got married in prison. Eric in 1999, Lyle in 2003, we said they were sent to different prisons. they've not seen each other very much over the years. I know they did some interviews, I think. Yeah, I don't know if the interview, I saw one joint interview, but I don't know if it was done before or after the final conviction. But either way, they haven't seen each other in a long time. Now, they do write letters to each other, but there was a whole bunch of other stuff that came out after this,

about some of the people that participated in this trial. In 1997 Gibbs, Dr. Oseill was forced to surrender his psychotherapist license. The California Court of Appeals heard the case of Eric and Lylem Mendez in 1998 and their convictions were upheld. Later on in 98, the California Supreme Court also upheld the murder convictions. not a single Supreme Court Justice voted to review the case. Eric's attorney, Leslie Abramson, she got in some hot water over the retrial. You know, it was alleged that she asked one of the doctors to change some of his notes. And there was a big investigation into her conduct.

And at one point, she was close to being prosecuted, but they decided not to. And then the state bar of California, they actually investigated her for three years about this kind of retrial fiasco. But ultimately, they concluded that there wasn't enough evidence to find that she violated any ethical rules in the retrial. So that's it, Gibbs, for our two-parter on the Menendez brothers. And there's a lot of facts in this case, but there's a lot of conjecture. as well. And I think that's the part that really troubles me in this one because you're dealing with such a sensitive topic, right? It doesn't get much more sensitive than the sexual abuse of a child. That was the central theme in this case. And so you have to conclude that the jury, after hearing all

the evidence, they made the decision that the Menendez brothers weren't telling the truth. And I think I lean that way to, you know, doing all the research, seeing how they acted, seeing the lies that they told. I'm not saying it didn't happen. I'm just saying, I think it's really hard to believe them. I don't know. What do you think, Gibbs? I agree with you. I think, you know, this case went in front of some peers, jury. Jury heard the case. Jury made the decision. I think the jury got it right. That's why I like you, Gibbs. You don't beat around the bush. You just tell it how it is. All right, so we've got some voicemails. Let's play those before we go. Hey guys, this is Cort from New Orleans.

Calling in to tell you guys that I love the show, and I have a suggestion for a future episode. I think a great topic would be Ricardo Lopez, also known as the Bjork stalker. There is plenty, if not days worth of video and audio that this man recorded during his downward spiral that led up to his eventual attempted acid bombing of Bjork. and his suicide. I think it would make a great episode. Anyway, keep up the great word, guys.

Take it easy. Bye. Court's got a good podcast voice. Yeah, he does. Yeah. Appreciate the voicemail, Cort. And we'll definitely look at Ricardo Lopez. Hi, Mike. Hi.

I'm calling you from Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. Love the show. Love the Unsolved Spinoff Show. Humbus request. I'm really interested to hear your take on a local crime here, murder of Tim McLean at the hands of Vincent Lee in 2008. It's a really terrible story. It's very disturbing. And I think it ranks with some of the worst stories you've told on true crime all the time. Thanks for a great podcast. Keep up the amazing work and keep your own time taking. Everybody's so nice in Canada, Gibbs. The white zone is for unloading.

That's actually really funny. Yeah. I love these voicemails, man. But she's right about Vince Lee. It's an unbelievably horrific case where this guy essentially beheads a kid. on a greyhound bus, but what comes out, I mean, this guy's free. He's out walking the streets, I'm pretty sure. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. And then it makes it even more bizarre. Yeah, I haven't researched the case like for an episode, but I've kind of kept up with it over the years.

And I'm almost positive that, you know, because the system in Canada is much different than ours, I think he was found not legally competent or whatever, whatever. you call it in Canada. Right. But then at a certain point, they felt like he was rehabilitated, and I think they let him out. We're going to have to do this one for her. Yeah. It sounds like a good one to me. It is a, it's a very interesting story. There might be some cannibalism in it, too, if I remember. Oh, takes it up a whole other level. Yeah. Yeah. But it all happens on a bus, like a, like at one period of time. It's really weird. Thanks for that, though. Yeah. No, appreciate the voicemail. Hi, Mike and Gibby. This is Chelsea calling from.

Toronto, Canada, and I'm just calling to say how much I love their podcast. I get really excited on Mondays because I have a lot of driving to do, and you guys usually put your new episode on Monday, so it's a great time for me to binge all the episodes. Also, just wanted to say that I just think you guys do a great job. I love how you both empathize with all the victims and go into great detail about their life. And yeah, I just really appreciate that. So keep up the good work and have a great day. She sounds like she would be Team Ghibie. I'm just going to put that out there right away. You say everybody's Team Ghiby. And actually, I think they are. I don't think I've ever seen a Team

Furkey. Yeah, there's been a few. Has there? Yeah. Not many. I worked on them. You made them. Come back to the other side. To make me feel. Oh, I thought you were doing it to make me feel good. I said, what are you doing over there? Get back over here. That's two voicemails from Canada, give. I know. Got a lot of listeners in Canada. We like our Canadian folk. We've got to do a meetup in Canada.

Yeah, do you? That's a big place to meet up, man. Right in the middle. Right in the middle. We're going to meet up right in the middle. Everybody comes to the middle. Everybody that wants to come. What's in the middle of Canada anyway?

I don't know. I don't know where it. I know Toronto. I've been to Toronto. That's funny, though. All right. Appreciate the voicemail. Appreciate everyone for listening.

telling your friends, helping us grow. Y'all are great. Yep. We love it. We love it. All right, Gibbs. That is another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.