True Crime All The Time - The Murder of Elyse Pahler

Episode Date: June 7, 2021

In 1995, 15-year-old Elyse Pahler left her home in Arroyo Grande, California to hang out with some kids her age and never returned. What Elyse didn't know is that three boys, Joseph Fiorella, Jacob Delashmutt, and Royce Casey had been planning to kill her for some time. The murder was shocking, but, the reasons behind the murder caused a media frenzy. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murder of Elyse Pahler. Joseph, Jacob, and Royce were into death metal and especially the band Slayer. They revealed to police that they sacrificed Elyse Pahler because they believed that the devil would make them better musicians. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 236 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson, Gibby. How are you? Hey man, I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing well. Good.

You and I are both playing a little hurt. We are. While we're taping our episodes this week. But we'll be okay. We will. And hopefully we can bring the same energy that we normally do. Gibbs at the time this episode. comes out, you and I will be on our way back from CrimeCon. We will be. And so hopefully we will have

met a bunch of fans. I know we will. I don't know why I'm saying hopefully. Yeah. We have every time we've gone. We've had a good time. It'll be nice to be there and be nice to get back to, you know, home. It always is, right? It's nice to go. And then come Sunday, man, I am ready to board that plane. Yeah. Well, I'm sure you are because you always fly first class. You always put me back in steerage. Oh, you're so full of it. I'm always back in steerage. So full of it.

Back by the luggage stuff. So we will have some updates probably next week. If anything out of the ordinary went down. We've got some shoutouts to give. Let's start with Patreon. We had Mandy Davis jump out at our highest level. Hey, Mandy. Stephanie Darby.

What's going on, Darby? Carrie DeCarteray. Hey, DeCarteray. And that's just a fun name to say. It is. Sounds elegant. If elegant, fancy, that's exactly what I was thinking. Yeah.

Peggy Hill. Hey, Peggy. Natasha White jumped out of our highest level. Thank you, Natasha. Cassie Stingle. What's going on, Cassie? Amanda jumped out of our highest level. Appreciate that, Amanda.

Madison Wheel Lock. Well, that's, uh, wheelock. It is, because that's exactly what I just said. Yeah. Karina Kyle. Hey, Karina. Jilliana Dulani. What's going on, Dulani?

Audra Johnson. Hey, Audrey. Foy Fulton. What's up, boy. Marie Adkins. Hey, Marie. Jene Young. Appreciate that, Jene.

Renee Bullard jumped out at our highest level. What's going on, Renee? Tammy Gibson. What's going on? Gibby, Gibby, Gibby, Ghibison. Part of the Gibson clan. Yeah. Chad.

Hey, Chad. Michael Week. Hey, Michael. Katie Dew. Well, better than don't. Spelled like Mountain Dew. I see that. Danielle Hill.

Hey, Danielle. Emma Blakemore. Appreciate that, Emma. And last but not least, Sean O'Shea. Hey. So we appreciate all that new support. We do. Thanks, Sean.

And if we go back into the vault, Gibbs, this week we selected Ellie Rosson. Hey, Ellie. Ellie's been with us a long time. So appreciate the new support, the continued support. We had some great PayPal donations from Linda Stevenson. Appreciate that, Linda. Lindsay Maiden. Hey, Maiden.

Massage by Rhonda. Finding a good massage. I do too, man. And Aubrey Eldridge. Well, thank you, Aubrey. So thanks to all of you as well. Gibbs right now on true crime all the time unsolved. We have an episode out on the kidnapping of Virginia Piper.

So we're headed back to the early 70s. Yeah, up in Minnesota, it's going to be a really good case to listen to. It's one of those ones that it has an interesting twist towards the end. Yeah, that I think is going to grab everyone. So make sure you check that out. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True. crime all the time. I'm ready. We are talking about the murder of Elise Pauler. And this is a case that is known by a number of different, I won't say monikers, but some people refer to this as the

Slayer band murders. Many outlets report that this is the inspiration for the movie Jennifer's body. Oh, yeah. Which I've known. never seen. I have. You have. We talked about it. So if anybody's seen that movie, because I do know what it's about, I've just not seen it. We're in for a rough road here. Elise Poller was just 15 years old, a freshman in high school, when her life ended in one of the most brutal and horrific ways possible. But it's really Gibbs the reason why that grabbed so many people, made the headlines, you know, made all the papers and the various news shows. Royce Casey, Jacob Delashmuch, and Joseph Fiorella were part of a band that they called Hatred.

So this was the name of their band. But it was inspired by the death metal band Slayer. Now Slayer is not a band that I'm familiar with at all. It's not in my playlist. I don't think I've probably ever heard of. Slayer song in my life. What about you? I think I might have heard one before, but I couldn't recall what it was.

Yeah. I mean, to my understanding, you know, Slayer is not something you would hear or would have heard on the radio. We'll talk about some of the lyrics of some of Slayer's songs, but what happened was these three kids felt that they needed to sacrifice a virgin with blonde hair and blue eyes and order to please Satan so that they could become professional musicians. I mean, this is really what they thought. They did. They really believe this. And we're hearkening back to, who was it, Robert Johnson, who sold his soul to the devil at the crossroads, you know, allegedly, that story

so that he could become this famous musician. I think many people continue to struggle to understand. how three people could come together to commit such a terrible crime against an innocent girl. And at the time Gibbs, many parents blamed this type of music, right? This death metal music. They blamed the lyrics. They blamed violent media for causing teenage boys to feel these type of urges, the urges to murder and hurt other people. I definitely remember all that. uproar when that occurred. Yeah. And I'm sure we'll talk about that a little bit more as we go along. It got to a fever pitch in the 80s and then into the 90s. I remember that because of the type of music I was listening to at the time. Yeah. I remember when they started putting the labels.

Censorship. Yeah. On, you know, CDs and things like that. Elise Poller lived in Royo Grande, California. Royo Grande was praised. as an ideal family area. But in the 1990s, it started to make the headlines because of a rash of teen violence. Elise was the oldest of four children. Her siblings are Jenny Lee, Ryan, and Christina. She was active in the church and she was very gifted in the arts. Her obituary read, she loved God, his beautiful world.

and loved her friends and large family. Elise was also a talented tennis player and she was in the newspaper for winning an award at a local tournament. She liked art, poetry, and she very much liked designing her own dresses. Elise had a dream of being an actress someday. She was a good daughter, but I think like a lot of kids her age, she got a little trouble. Yeah, I mean, she dabbled in drugs a little bit. I mean, I don't know how many of us can say that we didn't try this or that, namely pot. Let's just face it. It's hard to avoid some peer pressure in those age groups. Yeah. And I think that's probably what she did. Now, Elise knew Jacob, Delashmott, and Joseph Fiorella because they rode the same bus. Joseph was 14, Jacob was 15, Royce was 16, and he went to a different school. Heather Peterson, a former student at Arroyo Grande High School, told the Hanford Sentinel that

Elise wasn't popular. She was mostly known for hanging out with kids who used drugs and worshipped Satan. So I think this is something else we're going to see in this episode. Right. Some people had some not so flattering things to say about police. Now, her family would vehemently deny some of these types of things. Yeah, she might have smoked a little pot, but they're not saying that she was into all this other stuff. A lot of the kids at the school knew about the three boys death metal band hatred. And, you know, from what I understand Gibbs. These three boys were looked at as strange because of this obsession they had with death metal and Satanism. I think a lot of people avoided in them. Yeah. I mean, I think back to high

school. And granted, there are some things, probably quite a few things I would change about some of my actions in high school and how I treated certain people. I always stuck up for people that were being picked on. But there were some groups, I'll be honest about this, that, you know, I didn't really identify with. I didn't try to hang out with because I had my friends and we had our interests. And then you had other kids who were more into heavy metal. I don't even think I knew what death metal was back in the day. But that just wasn't something I was interested in. And so I wasn't looking to hang out with those type of people. You know, a lot of people said that it seemed like Elis didn't have many friends.

And that's why they thought she was drawn to the boys because they showed interest in her. She wanted to fit in with them. So she pretended to share some of their interests. Okay. That can happen. Sure can. I'm not saying that's what happened. I'm saying that's what some people have said.

they believe happened, the three boys plotted her murder for over a month. And I guess they talked about it while they practiced their death metal music for their band hatred. I do think it's important somewhat to talk about the differences between death metal and heavy metal. They're not the same. And I think a lot of people assume that they are. This death metal from what I gathered Gibbs is kind of a subgenre that really kind of focuses in on violence, murder, and the occult. Oh, for sure, the occult, yeah. I mentioned it, right? They were inspired, these three boys, by the band Slayer.

And Slayer especially, often saying about murder and Satanism, you know, just to give you a couple of examples of some of their lyrics. Homicidal maniac, trapped in mortal solitude, lift the gleamination. blade, slice her flesh to shreds, watch the blood flow free. Okay. I mean, this is not lollipops and unicorns we're talking about here. This is not Pat Boone by any stretch of the imagination. I mean, you're talking about killing a female. Sure you are. Yeah. In those lyrics. Yeah. Joseph Fiorella also had some books on Satanism. And a lot of people said that, you know, You know, really, he showed the most interest in murder.

Joseph and Jacob decided that they wanted to sacrifice Elise because she was blonde, had blue eyes, and she was a virgin. The San Francisco Gate reported that they thought this would make her murder, quote, the ultimate sin against God and give them tickets to hell. First class is what they probably thought. Well, first of all, why do you want to take it to hell? I don't understand that. But if you're going to hell, how are you going to be this great musician?

Well, good question for them, huh? During this time, they also stalked a lease to figure out where she lived and when she might be vulnerable. Like other kids, their age, you know, these three boys, they smoke marijuana, but they also use some hard drugs like meth and LSD. and a lot of people have made the connection or the comment that, okay, these are hard drugs, probably influence their decisions, their behaviors.

Yeah, that was not the typical party drugs, right? I mean, I get it. Kids would do marijuana, but meth, LSD?

Yeah, was meth even around when you and I were, I don't remember meth and I certainly have never tried it. Yeah. I know LSD's been around for a long, long time. but I just had some pretty harsh stuff. And according to Royce Casey,

they had planned to kill Elise before. And they did enact part of their plan. Joseph Fiorella, Jacob Delashmet, and another teen named Travis Williams, almost killed Elise in the summer of 1995. They got her out of her house, walked her to a spot on the mesa

where there was a ravine. And one of the boys pretended to fall to get her to go to the bottom of the ravine. That was when Joseph tossed Travis a knife. And this would be the exact same knife Gibbs. It's a hunting knife that he would later use to kill Elise. Travis just stood there. And I think he later said that he was just too scared. He couldn't do it.

Right. But Joseph and Jacob chanted at him, do it, do it. Well, and I think Elise just thought, I think they're just playing with me. They're just joking around. Yeah, because she didn't report the incident. And so you can only kind of surmise that she must have thought it was a joke. Oh, they don't mean me any harm or else you would think she would have reported it. It was on July 22nd, 1995 that Elise left her home to hang out with the boys,

Joseph, Jacob, and Roy's. They told her they would give her some wheat if she went with them. They went to a eucalyptus grove on the Napomo Mesa, a quarter mile from Elisa's house. And allegedly, the boys thought this grove was an altar to Satan. And Gibbs, it was at this spot that they held Elise down, stabbed her to death, and then raped her corpse. So if we go back to that morning, we know that Elise spent the first part of her day with her aunt, Tina Rawlins. They were at Tina's house making dress patterns.

Tina told the Times Press recorder that Elise was a gifted seamstress. And she could make a pattern without measuring anything. And that's an amazing skill to have to be able to make your own clothes. I wish my kids had that skill. I make my own clothes sometimes. No, you do. Yeah. You're very gifted seamstress.

Yeah. Just really shouldn't wear them out because they never line up right. Yeah, but you can wear them around the house and stuff. Yeah. Yeah, they're sort of comfortable. And when Elise left her home that evening, that was the last time her aunt ever saw her a lot. That night, Elise watched the movie Paint Your Wagon with her family. Doesn't really seem like a movie that a 15-year-old would really be interested in watching.

I can't remember that movie. Paint Your Wagon is like an old Western, I think. Oh, yeah. I could never get my 15-year-old to watch a Western. I can't usually get her to watch something past like the 2000s. Yeah. They think that's ancient. And they really hate the stuff I've been watching lately then.

Me and you both. I think you and I both have been on the Turner classic movies. Yeah, we have, yeah. So at around 10 p.m., Elise received two phone calls, and apparently she slammed down the receiver and announced to everyone, I'm tired, I'm going to bet. And Elisa's father later told the Washington Post that he regretted, not questioning her a little bit that night. He said, I looked in her eyes. I knew there was something coming down the pike.

I knew there was something else there. I should have gone out the back door. I should have snuck out and made sure. And again, you and I talk about this a lot, Gibbs, parents guilt, right? After obviously a child ends up being murdered, all of that, what if? What could I have done? Why didn't I do this? And if I had done this, would it have changed the outcome? Sure. And you're always going to question yourself and ask them. And you're going to beat yourself up repeatedly. It's tough. No, and stop. 15 minutes later, she put pillows under her covers. and she snuck out of the house. No one really knows exactly what time she met up with the three boys.

When they met at the Grove, they smoked together. Sources are pretty inconsistent on whether she smoked weed freely or if they forced her to smoke. I think most people are of the opinion that she went willingly to smoke marijuana with these boys. Obviously not having any idea that they were planning to murder her, but after they smoked, the three forced Elise by knife point to walk to a secluded area filled with trees. It was Jacob, who initiated the murder by strangling Elise with his belt. Royce Casey held her down and Joseph Fiorella pulled out a hunting knife and stabbed her in the neck.

Then Jacob stabbed her, followed by. Royce. And Gibbs, this was extremely brutal. I mean, they stomped on her neck as they were killing her. The forensic pathologist later determined she had 12 stab wounds. But none of them were fatal, meaning she slowly bled to death. And according to Royce later, as they stabbed her, at least called out for her mom and she prayed. So tragic. Yeah, it's heartbreaking. And as a mother to find that out later, this wasn't very far from her house at all. No, it wasn't. She died about an eighth of a mile from the safety of her home.

The Washington Post reported that the boys killed her at the edge of the grove, then dragged her to the middle to leave her there to die. The boys never testified on their own behalf, and they all have given differing accounts of what really happened. We'll talk about why that is later. But as I mentioned, after Elise died, they returned and raped her corpse. And apparently this was something they had planned to do all along. You know, in the planning leading up to her murder, this was a part of it. They knew they were going to do. Accounts differ from the three on whether they raped her while she was still alive as well. So the next day, July 23rd, Elise wasn't home.

Her parents got worried. They launched a search campaign. And as we've seen in a number of cases, Gibbs, police initially believed that Elise was a troubled teen who ran away. They told the Pollers there really wasn't much they could do. And I think like any parents would be, her parents were devastated. Well, that's not what you want to hear from the police. It's really not. I mean, you want to hear that we'll find her.

We'll do everything in our power to bring her back home to you. And if something bad has happened, we'll do everything in our power to figure out who did it. The family knew gives that Elise would not have run away. First of all, she left home without taking any clothes, a toothbrush, or even shoes. Yeah, I get it. Some kids run away. It happens. But wouldn't you imagine that you're working up to that point,

you've been mulling it over at least some period of time. Yeah. And during that time, you're going to put some things together. You're going to have some type of backpack ready to go. You're not just going to leave home with nothing. You're going to need some essentials for the road. And it seems to me as though the police would look at that as a sign that, okay, this girl didn't just run away.

Something has happened. We need to jump into action. We need to start looking for her. The parents at one point actually talked to the boys. Yeah, they did. They spoke with all three boys. And they told Elisa's family that they believe she ran away. So basically for months,

the family had no leads. It doesn't sound like they had a lot of help from police. And they had no answers to where they're, daughter could be. All right, Gibby, let's take a quick break to talk about Best Fiends. We've been talking about it for quite a while now. So if you haven't tried it, what are you waiting on? You know, for me, Best Fiends is a great escape, a great palate cleanser in between all of the research that we do for our cases. You know, it kind of makes my brain feel like I'm swimming a couple of laps in the pool, riding my bike around the neighborhood. I'm exercising my brain. And that's a good feeling. Best

Fiends is a matching puzzle game, but it's so much more. You're not repetitively just smashing buttons one after the other. It's a mobile puzzle game that always leaves your brain feeling refreshingly challenge. It's almost too much fun. It's one of those games that's really hard to put down. But that's a good thing because Best Fiends has literally thousands of fun puzzles to solve and they're always adding something new. I love the cute characters that you get to collect. And for me, it's always about getting to that next level. I love that challenge. They're updating the game constantly, so there's always something new to explore. Download the five-star rated puzzle game, Best Fiends free today on the app store or Google Play. That's Friends

Without the R. Best Fiends. This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. BetterHelp will assess your needs and match you with your own licensed professional therapist. This is a service that I use, so I can speak from experience. I've been extremely happy. with what better help has to offer. Sometimes I just need to talk to someone. This is not a crisis line. It's not self-help. This is professional counseling done securely online.

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That's Better H-E-L-P and join the over 1 million people who have taken charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced professional. True crime all the time, listeners, get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com slash teacacac. Jacob was expelled from a Royo Grande High School in September 1995. He was also expelled from a second school for drug use. He left school in February 1996 to be homeschool. Royce attended a different school, as we mentioned, and he had minimal behavior problems.

I don't think anything to the level that Jacob had. But I think Gibbs, what's interesting is that Elise's murder wasn't the only disturbing incident of teen violence in Arroyo Grande that year. Travis Williams, who we already mentioned, right? He was the boy who almost killed Elise and a teen named Tommy Traber. They broke into the house of a woman named Mabel Agueta and they shot her in the head. Joseph Fiorella's older brother Anthony was charged with murdering a 15-year-old. He had run from the police and was nowhere to be found at the time of Elisa's murder.

Two other teens in the area broke into a woman's home and beat her with a bat. Now, thankfully, this woman survived the attack. Sheriff Ed Williams stated that the murders were an anomaly and didn't represent the children of Arroyo Ronde. It certainly wasn't looking good. No, I mean, I think as a, as a community, this is not what you want to see happening. You have a number of young people who are committing some extremely violent acts, including murder. And they don't even know about the three boys yet. And what happened to a lease on December 25th, 1995, the Poller family gathered at their family ranch.

and prepared Christmas dinner. They all waited for a call from a lease or for her to show up at the door. They had recently received a tip that she was still alive and traveling with a carnival in Colorado and that she might call them on Christmas Day. But it never happened. That's a strange tip. Yeah. And you wonder where it came from. You know, was it someone involved trying to throw off the investment?

Was it somebody playing with the family, which we've seen a number of times? Sadly. It's sickening. But we know that people get some kind of perverse enjoyment with tormenting the families of missing children, missing and or murdered children. But I think even without the tip, Christmas would be such a special time that you would, I think, build up this hope that, okay, she's been gone a while. If she's going to come back, it's Christmas, right? Christmas is a special day.

This was a religious family. She was a religious person. She's going to knock on that door and walk on through. And everything's going to be okay. David Poller told Napomo's Adobe Press, you want to find your child alive or dead. to not know what's happened to a loved one is a terrible thing. I remember getting up at 3 a.m. and staring out the window into the darkness, wondering where to find her.

He insisted that it was not like Elise to run away. He knew something terrible happened to her, but law enforcement refused to listen. For eight months, Gibbs, Elisa's body was in the Eucalyptus Grove on the Napomo Mesa until Royce Casey approached the police and confessed. And apparently after the murder, he converted to Christianity. And he began to feel this overwhelming sense of guilt. He confessed what he had done to a priest who urged him to turn himself in. So basically, he came forward because of his religious convictions.

But I think he has also said he came forward because, he thought Joseph and Jacob wanted to murder again. So two-fold. Yeah, two, you know, a couple of different reasons. But, you know, he said they had promised him before that Elis would not be the only one. There would be others. And I think at some level, Royce probably feared that he would be next because apparently after the murder, he tried to distance himself.

he worried they might literally follow one of the Slayer lyrics, which was, if you're not with us, you may no longer exist. Yeah. Well, I think in general, it's pretty much a criminal creed, all for one or and one for all. Well, and I think, you know, you have to look at Roy's. He knows exactly what these guys are like and, you know, how much they were into these lyrics and they were, you know, almost kind of living by them. So, you know, I see where he might have been a little fearful. On March 14th, 1996, Royce Casey led the police to Elisa's body. Now, he did place most of the blame on Joseph and Jacob, who he said planned the entire murder. All three were arrested and charged with first degree murder that very same day. I wonder if the reason

that no one could smell her decaying body why she was missing was because the grove that she was in. Those eucalyptus, am I saying that right? Eucalyptus? Yeah. Trees.

So you're thinking that maybe there was a scent to the trees that may have masked the smell of decay? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. It could have also very well have been that this was a remote area

that no one really visited or something like that. But you could be on to something. I do think that Royce's arrest was pretty surprising to his community because most people thought he was a pretty good kid. You know, I mentioned it. He went to a different school. He didn't have a lot of the same behavior problems that the others did. Now, the arrests of the other two were not surprising at all because of their record and, you know, their track record. An investigator asked Royce why they killed Elise. He responded by saying, it was to receive power from the devil to help us play guitar better.

The investigator told the San Luis Obispo Tribune, by making this perfect sacrifice to the devil, they would gain more craziness or nuts, as he called it. That would make them play harder, play faster. And by making this perfect sacrifice to the devil, it might help them go, quote, professional. Which it never did. No, obviously it didn't. But you and I cover a ton of murders. And we always talk about the reasons behind murders or why people think they need to kill or why they do kill.

There's never a good reason to commit a cold-blooded murder. But Gibbs, this has to be the dumbest reason for thinking that you need to take someone's life that I've ever heard because you want to be better at playing guitar. You want your band to be better and more successful. And you think a sacrifice to Satan is going to make that happen. So that's how little they valued life, these three guys. Yeah, that the success of their band was more important. important in the life of a 15-year-old girl.

The San Luis Obispo Tribune reported that Royce told the police they wanted to kill Elise because she had blonde hair and blue eyes. She was a virgin. They thought she would be a perfect sacrifice for the devil. So I mentioned that they were all arrested. Joseph Fiorella and Jacob Delashmott confessed soon after their arrests. The coroner positively identified Elisa's body. On March 20th, 1996, her remains were badly decomposed.

And obviously, you know they're going to be if they don't find her until eight months later. No rape exam could be done on her body. But the corner did confirm that there were signs of rape. Her parents provided dental records to help identify her. but they also identified her from a red bracelet she was wearing. And it was not long after this that the sheriff's office released the names of the three boys. Over the next year, all three boys pleaded no contest to the charges. And they were sentenced to 26 years to life for murder.

So by pleading guilty, there was no jury trial. And because there was no trial, most of the official documents, in this case are under seal and have never been released. That's interesting. Yeah, they were all minors at the time that the murder occurred. So I can see where maybe that was the reason for everything to be sealed. Betsy Leo, Joseph's mother, told investigators that Joseph told her Royce and Jacob raped Elisa's body. one of Jacob's friends testified that he bragged about going back to the eucalyptus grove to rape her.

All three of the boys told at least two people about the murder, but the friends dismissed them because they thought they were lying. You know, why not at least make that phone call to the authorities say, you know, this is what we were hearing. We don't believe it, but we know she's still missing. Yeah, you know, there's there's a part of me that thinks 14, 15 year olds, they just don't think that way. A lot of them, right? They're always joking around. So somebody says this and they think, oh, this is just another joke from so and so. But you're right. You would like to think that they would take such a serious comment a little more seriously and at least tell parents. And then parents could then make the decision, hey, all right, let's get in touch with investigators and just let them know what is being said. Yeah. They keep hearing this phrase, eucalyptus grove a few times.

Maybe they're like, hey, let's go check that grove out. Yeah, because if you hear it once, you might check it out. You hear it from multiple sources, you are definitely going to go check that out because that's Seriously, Betsy Leo blamed the city for letting her down while she sought help for her son's problems. She said law enforcement failed to help her when she told them that she couldn't control her children anymore. She said that her older son Anthony tried to kill Joseph at home before Elisa's murder. So sounds like a lot of stuff going on in that house. She called the sheriff's department to have him around.

arrested. They held him in jail and apparently Betsy refused to pick him up. She said that she felt there was nothing more she could do to help him. But she was forced to take him home when the police threatened her with a child abandonment charge. The police referred Anthony to the probation department. And we've mentioned it already gives, but Anthony later went on to murder another teenager and runaway. So, you know, I think this is a serious issue when, And you have a mother who has teenage boys that she cannot control. What do you do? Most teenage boys grow up to be bigger and stronger than their moms at some point.

Kind of hard to discipline them if they have no respect for the mother. They have no respect for the law. That's a terrible situation. She's definitely not in a good spot. on May 3rd, 1996, Judge Michael Duffy issued a gag order to all the attorneys involved with the case. All three boys were charged with murder, but later that month, D.A. Dan Bouchard amended the charges to include rape, torture, and conspiracy to murder. So I think after that Gibbs, the boys were looking at being sentenced as adults. But really, the details in this case didn't come out until the end of five.

February 1997. When county investigators testified at Royce and Jacobs' preliminary hearings, Superior Court Judge Christopher Money said the three committed murder for one of the stupidest reasons ever. And I think I said something similar to that. I think everybody looks at this case and thinks it's so dumb that these thoughts even entered their mind. Yeah, it's so idiotic.

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And you can receive funds as fast as one business day after accepting your loan. Find out how Upstart can lower your monthly payments today when you go to upstart.com slash TCAT. That's upstart.com slash TCAD. Don't forget to use our URL to let them know we sent you. Loan amounts will be determined based on your credit, income, and certain other information provided in your loan application. Go to upstart.com slash teacacacacac. Elise Walter, Elisa's grandmother said outside the courthouse, I wish I had known what they were planning. I would have wrung their scrawny little necks.

I don't doubt it. I bet Granny would have opened up a can of whoopass. Oh, I'm sure she would have. If she had any idea what these boys were planning on doing to, her granddaughter. Elisa's murder shocked the town. I mean, that's probably pretty safe to assume. But then when people began to find out that her murder was part of a satanic sacrifice, that became an even bigger shock. Andrew Watt, who knew Royce Casey from school, told S.F. Gate, it shocked the shit out of me. Me and him were pretty good friends. He was a calm, mellow

dude, especially compared to Fiorella and Delashman. According to Andrew, Royo Grande became weirder over the years because of too many hard drugs. He said, pot's one thing. But we're talking crack and crystal meth and lots of it. Those are some really, really bad drugs at any age, but especially at that young of an age. Yeah, 14, 15, 16 years. old. Royce's defense attorney said the allegations were exaggerated to inflame public opinion

and that the prosecution had no factual support. And I'm not sure how he's able to make this statement. You know, all three of these kids confessed and talked about the reasoning behind it. So, okay, you're either saying that all three of them are lying about why they committed the murder or there's definitely support there to back up the allegations of satanic worship, sacrifice, things like that. Now, is it going to inflame public opinion? Sure it is. Absolutely.

I can't imagine too many towns across America that would not be up in arms after finding out that a 15-year-old girl was essentially sacrificed so that, some boys could make a deal with the devil to be able to play guitar better. Yeah. I'm sure it was a big topic and a lot of churches on Sunday also. Oh, I know, no doubt because you know pastors, preachers, they're going to use that. They talk about it anyway. Sure they do. But now you've got a real world example of something that tragically has happened in your town. They're going to be all over that. In 1996, Elisa's parents filed a lawsuit against Slayer. And this really catapulted the case into the national spotlight. They said the band's music incited murder. They named Slayer

and record labels as the defendants and sought monetary damages as well as an end to the practice of marketing violent music towards juveniles. They also started the elite. The Elise Marie-Pallor Foundation to protect children and help families and law enforcement locate missing children by creating computer profiles of each child. The foundation worked to raise awareness of death metal music and the misogynistic lyrics. Joseph Fiorella was sentenced to 26 years to life on March 7, 1997. Royce Casey was sentenced to the same on December 2nd. 1997 and Jacob Delashman was sentenced to 26 years to life on February 2nd, 1998. Now Jacob issued an apology in court and said, quote, I am tremendously sorry for what happened

to your daughter. I did not rape and torture her. And I was not involved in any satanic ceremony or ritual. The reason why Elise was murdered, and this is a secret. And this is a secret. that only five people know about is because Joe Fiorella was obsessed with the lease and he killed her. What's a bombshell to drop? Yeah, it's a bombshell. I think you have to take a step back and look at it. Is it true? Or is Jacob setting something up for later down the road? Maybe when it comes time for him to have a parole hearing, you know, you just, you don't know. But it's a big shift, right, from the original confessions to now saying, you know, it was just Joe. Joe was obsessed with her and he killed her. And there wasn't anything satanic about it. Right. I don't know the truth, but I kind of lean towards the latter that that was probably calculated to set things up for down the road.

after the boys were sentenced, Elise's mother urged parents to monitor their children. She told the Santa Maria Times, what I've been saying to all parents is don't give your adolescence any privacy. You have to know what they are into, who they are friends with, and what they're listening to. She said, Jacob's parents didn't care about what their son did, which is why he was able to plan the murder and get away with it for so long. the paulers blamed three factors for Jacob's behavior, lack of supervision, drug use, and violent music. You know, I get it. I get where she's coming from. We kind of mentioned the guilt, right? Looking back, what could I have done? Well, I could have monitored my child more closely.

Sure. Now, she's saying don't give them any privacy. And I think, you know, when you get into that area, it's a real fine line. It could work against you. Yeah, it can work against you in a really bad way. Kids need a little bit of freedom. I mean, yes, could you make your house kind of a lockdown situation at all times? You could. Are you going to have a very unhappy kid or children?

Yes. The relationship's probably not going to be great. But are you ensuring their safety as much as you possibly can, I guess, if you go that route. You just got to think there's got to be some type of good balance. Yeah. Yeah, I think there is a good balance. The problem is when something like this happens, what you thought was a good balance didn't work. And so I think that's what she's saying. Slayer never released a statement in response to the murder. But in 1999, their drummer Paul Bostaff made the statement, they're trying to blame the whole thing on us. That's such bull.

If you're going to do something stupid like that, you should get in trouble for it. So he's saying, hey, don't blame us. Blame the people that did the stupid acts. I hear what he's saying? I do too. I do too. I mean, as much as you may not like that type of music and the lyrics and, you know, the crude things that maybe they say about women or hurting women or whatever it is, can you blame them?

I think that's the real question. And it goes for everything, right? Do you blame violent movies? Do you blame violent TV shows, video games? We've talked about that quite a bit. I don't think there's any doubt that some people can lose that understanding of what they're seeing on the screen or what they're hearing and what's going on in real life and morph it all together. But by and large, that, you know, it's not the majority.

A lot of people watch violent movies, listen to music, play video games, they don't go out and kill people. So I don't know. I think, I know there are people on both sides of that fence. On October 31st, 2001, a judge determined that Slayer's lyrics were offensive, but did not incite murder. In his decision, he wrote, Slayer lyrics are repulsive and profane, but they do not direct or instruct listeners to commit the acts that resulted in the vicious torture, murder of Elise Pauler. Why, I don't think there's any doubt they're repulsive and profane based on just the few that we read.

The judge ruled that the music is not harmful to children and the music is protected by the First Amendment. And I get all of that. Now, do I think children of a certain age should be listening to that music? Probably not. In 2001, Jacob Delashmint told a police officer, it was harmless at first. We used to smoke weed, play guitar, kick it. I was just into heavy metal music.

It gets inside your head. It's almost embarrassing that I was so influenced by the music. He gave statements to the Washington Post and the Guardian for a prison interview. He said that one day Joseph asked him if he'd be down for sacrifice. a virgin. Jacob did not take him seriously, so he said, whatever. After the murder, both Jacob and Royce wanted to place the majority of the blame on Joseph Fiorella. So again, you know, you got three people who all participated in this murder after the fact, that's when all the finger pointing starts, right? That's normally the case. Well, why wouldn't they? This is the time to do it, because they

want to make their maybe future appeal or their parole hearing look better for them. Yeah, I think it's natural, right? As you sit in prison and you're contemplating this sentence and when your parole hearing is going to come up, okay, do you start to get a little calculating? I imagine you do. And one of the things that you start figuring out is how do I minimize. my role in what happened and at the same time maximize someone else's. That's going to make me look better down the road. I can't get out of what I'm in right now. I'm just looking to the future.

Some years later, Joseph and Jacob told Entertainment Weekly that Slayer's music had nothing to do with the murder. They said that the murder was not a sacrifice. But court records show that Jacob told a probation officer he was influenced by Slayer. And when Royce confessed, he said they referred to themselves as Satan's children and talked about killing a lease in a satanic ceremony. So I think you have just all kinds of different statements that are made over the years and they all contradict each other. Yeah, they're never the same and they're just really frustrating, actually. It is, it is. But I also think what you see is the later you go on, the more, okay, it's not Slayer. It wasn't satanic. And on the part of Royce and Jacob, well, we were there, but we weren't the leader. You know, that was Joseph. Gibbs, when you talk about Elisa's family, obviously they suffered greatly after her death. Her dad had trouble,

maintaining work and Elise's mother had various jobs with the school system. On December 23rd, 2013, David Poller was involved in a road rage incident that was triggered by his PTSD. He was cut off at a light and followed the vehicle to a right aid parking lot. When the driver parked, David yelled and banged on the window. The driver didn't open the door, so he hit it twice with his knee dending this person's car. Then he opened the door and pulled the driver out. He was charged with battery, but it was dismissed. He pleaded no contest to misdemeanor vandalism.

He got probation, a $500 fine, and was ordered to take anger management classes. Well, that road rage is serious stuff, man. It is. And I've been candid that I've had it from time to time. But we're talking about the father. of a murdered child. I'm not saying it's right what he did because it's not. But he finally hit that point.

Well, and that's, that's kind of where I was thinking about heading, which is it can't be easy to deal with. And I have no idea what type of counseling, if anything, they went through to, you know, to try to deal with some of this stuff. You struggle with it for so long. And obviously he did, right?

Couldn't keep a job. And it sounds like he did hit his breaking point. He snapped. On March 21st, 2017, the San Luis Obispo County DA's office filed a motion to reimburse the state Victims Compensation Board, which paid almost $35,000 to the Pollers for funeral costs and counseling. The office also wanted to determine loss of wages and restitution for Lisa's father. In the late 90s, the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation did not collect restitution from people with life sentences.

But it was included for Royce and Jacob, but the restitution has never been collected from them. And how could it be? I can't imagine as 14, 15, 16 year old kids, they had any money going into this thing. and you sure as heck don't make a lot of money in prison. No. You know, working at your job. As we talked about before,

you might have enough to go to the commissary by some ramen. And I think even some of those individuals have been, we've talked about that money's been taken out of their account. Oh, sure has. And I have no problem with that. But regardless of what the figure is, it's going to be hard to collect. that money. David Poller wrote in his court declaration from February 2017.

For many months, we suffered through the nightmare of not knowing what happened to Elise. When her body was finally discovered, I learned that she had been barbarically murdered. And I was consumed with grief. Although the defendants received prison sentences, it did little to ease the horror of what they'd done. The pain of losing my daughter, and knowing she suffered will never leave me. Gibbs, before Lease died, David made somewhere between $75,000 to $100,000 a year as a general contractor. He couldn't keep working. And it was reported that he lost about a half a million dollars. He went on welfare and eventually the family lost their home. Again, you and I talk about a lot of things that victims' families have to go through.

Sure we do. And we know there's. the grief and the suffering and all of that. We don't often talk about the financial aspect. You know, this guy's got a great job. He's making a lot of money. His daughter's murdered and his whole entire world is turned upside down. Whose wouldn't be? And essentially, they end up pretty much destitute losing the family home. Just seemed like their problems kept compounding. Yeah. Well, And that often happens, right? One thing leads to another, which leads to another, all stemming from this horrific tragedy. Sure. And it becomes a spiral that you just cannot get out of. Joseph Jacob and Royce are held at separate jails in southern and central California. The California Department of Correction website provides information on their current status.

Joseph Fiorella is now 40 years old and is held at high desert state prison. On August 22nd, 2019, he voluntarily waived his right to a parole hearing for two years. Then on March 29th, 2021, he waived it for another year. So his next parole hearing is set for July 22. And the only thing that I can figure out Gibbs is that, he thought, okay, they're going to turn me down. And once they turn me down, my next parole date or hearing date is going to be set out sometime in the future.

And it's going to be a lot longer than one or two years. Yeah, so he was trying to get ahead of it? Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Or maybe he was thinking, or his attorneys were thinking, you don't want this parole board. I might want to wait and see who the parole board is in the future. We might have a better chance. Yeah, it could be.

Jacob Delashman is now 41. He's held at the correctional training facility on December 5th, 2017. He was denied parole for seven years. So again, maybe that plays into what Joseph did. I don't know. December 224 is the tentative date for his next parole hearing. Royce Casey is now 43. He is held at Valley State Prison on July 12th, 2016.

He was denied parole for five years. In January 2019, he was approved to advance his next parole hearing, but in July of that year, he was denied parole for three years. In 2020, he was approved to advance another hearing. And on March 17th, 2021, Royce was granted parole. So that was just, you know, a couple of months ago. I don't know if he's out yet or if they've set a date for him to be released, but he's going to be released.

So if he gets out this year, Gibbs, he'll have done the minimum, which is, you know, 20, which was 26 years. Now, I think Royce had some things going for him, though, right? He is the one that confessed and that had to buy him some. goodwill, I would think, with the parole board. I think it had to. Because if you think about it, if Royce had not confessed, Elisa's murder might have gone unsolved.

It very likely could because you and I do unsolved cases every week. Yeah. And the way that her body was rapidly decomposing, I don't know what they would have found, evidence-wise. No, in another four months, and another six months, a year, animals, scavengers who know. Yeah. The pollers have made it their mission to encourage other parents to monitor what their children

are doing. And perhaps more importantly, what kinds of people they spend time with. They encourage parents to take action to prevent more tragedies like Elise's murder. And, you know, on that, I agree with them. I think you should monitor what your children are doing. I think you should know what types of individuals they're spending time with. I think that's important. So Gibbs, as we wrap up this case, I just still cannot get over the fact that three young kids,

if you believe their initial confessions and most of the things that came out early on, killed a 15-year-old girl to essentially make a deal with the devil. Right. to make them better musicians. I mean, it's just something, you know, and I know we talked about the movie Jennifer's body. I'm sure that the plot goes somewhere along those lines, right? You've seen it.

Oh, yeah. I haven't seen it. Yep, pretty similar. You know, a lot of times I say, well, if you wrote this as a movie script, it would be laughable. Now, if you're going to write a horror movie or, you know, something kind of outlandish, I get that. But if you're going to write like a straight drama where this occurs, would people even think it's plausible?

I mean, I guess so, but man, it's so far out there. It's so hard to make sense of. There's some real idiots. Yeah. Yeah. And unfortunately, it's okay to be an idiot. It really is as long as your idiocy doesn't hurt other people. These three guys, they took their idiocy and.

and, you know, into the life of a, of a young girl. Yeah. Yeah. Pointless. But that's it for our case on the murder of Elise Poller. We got some voicemails, Gibbs. You want to check those out? Let's hear them.

Hey, Mike and Gibby. This is Ashley from Lawrenceville, Georgia. I was just calling in real quick because I had the weirdest thing happen to me. I listen to you guys all the time. Love you guys. Team Gibby. Woohoo. But I was just getting ready at home.

My kids and husband were gone. I'm at home by myself. strange man comes to my door on the van it says Mike Gibson electrician we didn't call an electrician and immediately I'm just thinking that this is the day that I'm going to die it was very coincidental you guys teach me about true crime I got this guy instantly making me think of true crime at my door it was just crazy love you guys keep your own time taken thank you don't think the fact that his name was Mike Gibson electrician was crazy I think that was crazy I'll just say this if someone comes to your door from a van that has the name Mike Gibson on it, you act like you're not home

because no good can come from that. Hey now. Just say that right now. Hey, Mike and Gibby. This is Becky from Alliance, Ohio. I'm not one to normally voice bail, but I just told the episode with Mike doing the Conway Twitty. And I got to say, I switched from Team Gibby to Team Fergie all the way after that one.

You guys are awesome. Keep up good work and keep your own time. Bye. He does have a good voice. I can't deny that. I finally got a convert, Gibbs. Yeah, you did. Finally.

You and your Conway. The Conway did it. Hey, darling. This is Tammy from South Carolina. So you guys don't know me from Adam's house chat. I feel a little bit of bond with y'all. I've been listening to T-Cat for the last several months and has certainly run the gamut on emotions while listening to y'all. I mean, I've laughed so hard.

My size is hurt. In the very next breath, I'm sobbing for the victims. and the horrible things that stay in their families endured, less their hurt. Y'all handle these cases with a lot of finesse and respect, and I really appreciate that as I was the victim of a sexual assault when I was a teenager by one of the boys that lived in my neighborhood. No disrespect to any of the other crime podcasts out there,

and I certainly have listened to a few, but y'all are number one for me. Anyway, please take care of each other, I can't even imagine the effects of research and profiling these cases have on y'all. Don't be safe. Love you. Bye. So thanks so much for the voicemails and the kudos. Yeah, I mean, I think there is a lot of ups and downs, right? As you go through an episode as a listener, for us Gibbs during the research, it's kind of the same way. There's a lot of ups and downs, mostly downs, because there's a lot of bad things being researched.

Sure is. Now, there is some uplifting stuff as well. Yeah. You know, that, you know, the parents set up foundations. or they do this great work in the name of their lost loved one. And so you have some ups and downs. But yeah, I think we work hard to ensure that our mental health stays where it should be. Yeah.

In a good place. In those appropriate times, we will find a little humor. Yeah. And that's part of it. Because if we were just down and dirty in the muck, all the time. I think it would be tough for us. And I also think it would be tough for the listener.

We try to lighten it where we can. Hey, guys. This is Lindsay from Atlanta, Georgia. I'm Team K-KAT because, you know, who can choose between the two of you? You both just rock. I was just listening to the case. I can't even remember the name because all I could focus on was that it was Clemson University.

And I went to Clemson, and I loved it. second of it. I'm an Uber fan. I took the five-year plan because I just didn't want to leave. It was just that fabulous. Anyway, something that bothered me was that you kind of implied that Clinton had a pretty high sexual assault rate. And then you kind of went into something that, you know, pretty much a lot of colleges. You know, it's a problem that a lot of colleges. But I don't know. That made me sad. Anyway, go tigers. Love you guys.

Listen to you so much. You're the greatest. No other podcast compares. And rock on my Clemson Tigers. All right. Bye guys. So she's talking about the Jerry Buck Inman case. And granted, nobody wants to hear anything bad about their university.

Of course not. And sexual assaults are a problem at every university. it was very prominent in the research that at that point in time, which I think if I were, if I remember correctly, was in the mid 2000s, they were experiencing, you know, a high number. Yeah, a high rate. Yeah, a high rate of sexual assault. Gives, we had one thing in the mailbag. Christopher Maffell sent us a trading card in a protective case.

and it looks like any other sports card. Yeah. But it's DB Cooper. Cool. It's so amazingly cool. I've never really seen anything like it. It looks like a sports card, but it's filled with facts about the case. Did you trade my one card?

Is that how you got it? Yeah. Okay. The Mike Gibson card? Yeah. Yeah. You'd like to have your own card, but you don't want to get to the, to do anything to warrant it. I get it.

Yeah. Really cool, though. It's actually really neat. And I'm trying to find out where I can get some more. They're made by Tops, the company that makes sports cards. That's awesome. Yeah. So we'll see.

I'm on the lookout for more of them. All right, buddy, that is it for another episode of True Crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.