True Crime All The Time - The Murder of Michele Avila

Episode Date: June 4, 2018

In 1985, Michele "Missy" Avila was a typical 17 year old teenager. But on this night, she would be betrayed by the girls that she thought of as her best friends. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss this tragic case involving jealousy, love triangles, and murder. Karen Severson and Laura Doyle were good friends with Missy. But they were also jealous of her and animosity had been brewing over what they thought were Missy's inappropriate actions with their boyfriends.Please help support the sponsors that support us:Omax - go to omaxboost.com/tcatt to save over 60% off your first order of Omax cognitive boost. Plus you'll get free shippingHavenly - Let Havenly help you design a beautiful new space in your home. Go to havenly.com/tcatt to get 25% off your first design package.Credits:Writing/Research - Maggie DobschuetzSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

and welcome to episode 81 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, what is going on? Man, I'm doing, uh, well, you know, I'm good, doing good. Not great, just good. I'm good, you know, I'm still recovering from post-hernia procedure. And you're going to keep milking that hernia, aren't you? Well, it was two for, you know.

Yeah, I forgot it was. a quadruple bypassed hernia. Had to go in through your big toe, right? Is that how they did it? It was rough, man. No. So I'm good. I really am good.

I just, you know, that after surgery pains that you get, you know, I can handle all that. It's no big deal. It's just like when it goes into certain areas. You say it's no big deal,

but you keep talking about it. Well, it must be some sort of a deal. People's got to know. Adoring fans want to know. What is going on with Gibby? and his septuplet hernia. That's right.

I don't even know. He keeps building. He keeps building. They went in seven different places. But all jokes aside, I mean, that is rough. And, you know, it's just something you got to recover from. Yeah. First week was really rough.

After that, it was just, you know, phantom pains and things like that. But, you know, you get past it. But I guess things you don't think about, right? Sitting in a chair all day long. Yeah. It is not conducive to maximum comfort after something like that. It's not. But talking about pains and stuff, man, you're sitting over there and pain.

Well, you're not right now. You're on a muscle relaxer, I think. Maybe. Mr. I hurt my shoulder. I did. I may have hurt my rotator cuff. Yeah.

Which would be the second time or the other shoulder. I've already had the surgery on one of my shoulders. Yeah. Well, hopefully it's not, but I think it is. I appreciate that vote of confidence. Yeah, we'll see. We'll see. can get by with just some rehab or something like that.

Yeah. But either way, I'm not doing it this summer. You're going to wait. I'm going to wait. You're going to ride that hall. Now, I might do some rehab, but I'm not having surgery. If that's what they say I have to have. Yeah.

You're going to wait and not worry about. I'm going to do it during the winter when you can't do anything outside. Exactly. All right, Gibbs. We got some new Patreon supporters. We do. Let's give some shout out. Absolutely.

We had Karen Rosenstein. Awesome. Lynn Ayah. Ayah. Ashley. Kozlovich. Kosovic. Sex Stuff with Kristen.

Oh, hey, sex stuff. And she's actually been a fan for a long time. She does some vlogs. She does all kinds of things. Yeah, thanks, Kristen. And she jumped out at our highest level. We had Amanda Hopkins, Stephanie Williams, Casey Passenger's been with us.

She jumped up to our highest level. Thanks, Casey. Katie Bonfa, Emily Kaffanberger. Another Emily. Another Emily. Heidi Nash jumped up to our highest level. Love that name. Thanks, Heidi.

Layla Donaldson Joe Butters Joe Butters What's up with that? Cool name Uh-huh Mary Cooges Yeah

Colette Antevereos Oh hey Antevereus jumped out at our highest level Yeah Allie Groanveld Groanville Yeah

That's it I got it right You're like It was like a question You said it as a question I know I surprised I got As in like

Are you sure you're right about that? No I'm not sure I'm right about it I'm doing my best though. Doing your best. This should have been the episode where you had to say all the name. I would have nailed it. Stephanie Woodburn.

Winston Kimberl jumped out at our highest level. Winston. And then we had Kelsey Niemeyer Cook. Yeah, Kelsey. Jumped out at our highest level. Awesome. Along with her sister Megan. Megan, thank you.

And they are making this Patreon pledge in honor of their father, Doug Niemeyer. Awesome. Thanks, Doug. He's coming up on his 60s. birthday. Just a young man. I think it's next week. Yeah. And they wanted to get a shout out for their dad. How cool is that? It is cool. So happy birthday to their dad, Doug. So they may or may not have got him some T-Cat merch. Maybe, maybe not. Allegedly. I see a box over there. And they reached out to me. Yeah. And they wanted me to know that Doug Niemeyer is one of our biggest fans. That's cool. So it warms my heart Gibbs having two girls to think maybe someday my girls would do something like this for me.

Yeah, that would be really cool. I'll talk to them about it. I'll say, hey, call in to Gibby and let me know what you want. Hey, when Gibby's a big star, call in, tell him I'm a big fan. Yeah. But they also left the voicemail. So listen for the voicemail later on. It's pretty cool.

That's cool. Awesome. Thanks, ladies. And then if we go back into the vault Gibbs. This week we selected Michelle Watson. Michelle. Long time listener. One of our biggest supporters that we have on TCAD.

Yep. So big shout out to her for her Patreon support, the new folks that have joined Patreon and then all the folks that continue to support us month after month. Yeah, I really like that. Because we had a lot of PayPal support too. Oh, we do. We had Jonathan Taylor, Jessica Bernson. Wow.

Chad Eberhardt, Cosmo Corbo. Oh, Cosmo got in. Yep. That is a cool name. That is cool. Alana Bush. Catherine Triplett. Yeah.

Allison Thompson, our friend Allison. Yeah, thanks, Allison. Made a donation on PayPal. Wanted me to take you out to lunch. She did. I did not take you out to lunch. No, you did not. What I did is buy you a carton of frozen peas for your nether regions.

Yeah, so thanks for that, Allison. So I used that money for that. So I got a bag of frozen peas, Allison. A cart. A whole crate. Yeah, and Mike got everything else. We had Maria Fogo. Fojo.

Elizabeth McKisson and Kate Massey. Oh, hey, Kate. So a lot of support on PayPal as well. Yeah, thanks, everybody. We really appreciate that. Love it. So don't forget, right now, there's an episode out on Unsolved. There is.

We're talking about Eve Godard and his family. Absolutely. And we're going to France. Love Avivar France. We've never been to France. Never. And Gibby's going to do a whole bunch of, I guess you'd call him accents. I don't know.

Wee, we. That's the only French he knows. Vive la France. Well, I just quote the movie, Le Mésera. You know what? I am literally shocked that you got that right. I had to think about it at first. I was going to say less miserable.

I would have bet money that you would have said miserables or something. Yeah. I probably won't get it again for a second time, but, you know. Number one, you knew what movie you were thinking about. And number two, it's probably one of the harder movies to pronounce. Yeah, I wouldn't be able to get the character's names right, but. That might be that OMAX boost working. It might be.

But anyway, check that out. It's going to be a good unsolved episode. Yep. Got to give a big shout out to Maggie back this week with the writing and research. Maggie's back. Yep. So big shout out. It's like that song with the M&M.

Shady's back. But instead it's Maggie's back. That's what I thought you were going to jump on it and take it from there. No, this sounds like back when you were doing your boy band Orange Crush days, whatever that It was killer, man. I bet it was. Yeah. My wife saw the picture on Instagram or Facebook or one of them.

Did you see that one? What is going on with Gibby? Is it her screensaver now, though? It is. There you go. Truth comes out. All right. You're ready to get into this episode of True Crime All Time?

Let's do it. We are talking about Michelle Avela. And I think a lot of people as we get into this episode are going to see a lot of similarities with the Shonda Shere episode that we did a while back. I think so. There are some similarities here. But let's talk a little bit about Michelle. Michelle Avala was born February 8th, 1968 in Arletta, California. And this is a part of Los Angeles in the San Fernando Valley. Her parents would divorce. She ended up living with her mother, Irene, and her siblings. Michelle went by the nickname Missy, and she was known as someone who was very socially outgoing, very attractive,

had a great sense of style. Sounds like you. It does. It's almost like they're talking about me. I'll see the pretty part. I feel pretty. You are a pretty boy. Back in the day.

Back in the day. Not so much now. But Missy had been best friends with another teenager named Karen. Severson since they were eight years old. They were neighbors. Karen and Missy lived on the same street. And Missy was the type of child who would go up to someone like Karen as an eight year old and ask her if she wanted to play dolls together. Again, similar to you. I do like to play dolls. I know you like to play with dolls. Action figures, I call them. Yeah, that's true. They are action figures. They are action figures and dresses, but yes. But Karen and Missy would become the best of friends. Do you remember your

first childhood friend? I do. I do. I punched him in the nose and gave him a bloody nose. Okay. That's how you made friends, huh? No, this was after we were friends. Oh, okay. And that, that kind of ended the friendship. It kind of soured after that for some reason. Do you want to say something to him right now if he's listening? I don't remember his name. Oh, that's not. That's not. Not good. But, yeah. So the dude that got punched in the nose by Mike, if you're listening, he's really, I don't think he's actually, he's really not sorry about it.

I couldn't tell you anything about it other than I remember the blood. Yeah. I mean, we're talking, we're not talking about a gusher, but his nose blood a little bit. Yeah. You dropped him where he stood. I did, actually. Yeah. Yeah, as a little kid.

But do I feel, I don't feel bad about it because I don't remember what happened. I probably shouldn't have done it, but who knows. Now, one of my early, early friends, I mean, as a little, little kid, is still my best friend. Well, that's cool. Yeah. Yeah. So I've had the same best friend for, I don't know, probably close to 40 years. Wow.

That's a long time, man. It's a long time to put up with you. That is the truth. But they did everything together, you know, walk to school. But not just how you and I would walk to school, Gibbs. They walked arm and arm, right? Arms locked together, skipping the whole way. You don't know how I walked at school.

I said me and you together. That would never happen. Oh, that would not happen. Yeah, you might have walked that way with somebody else. I'm not doing it. I'm at you. But yeah, I mean, no, once you try to cuddle with me at CrimeCon, it was all. That was over.

They played jump rope. They told secrets. They did all the things that girls that age did. But what I'm trying to get across is they were inseparable. Bonded. Amazing friendship. Yeah. strong bond. Eventually, they would add a third girl to the mix, Laura Doyle, and they became kind of a

trio, described by others as best friends, really more like sisters. As they got into middle school, they started hanging out with a tougher crowd of kids. These kids were using drugs. Karen and Missy, they started dabbling a little bit into drugs, but they stayed pretty close, right up to the point where they began to attend high school. And that's when they started to drift apart a little bit. It was said that Karen started to become jealous of Missy. Missy was more popular. She was more attractive than Karen.

And this fueled a type of jealousy in Carrie. Karen. And I think Gibbs, it was also the fact that they were both growing up, but Missy especially was growing up. You know, she was spending time with boys. Yeah. She was being a teenager. She wasn't going to hang out with Karen. Play dolls no more. And play dolls anymore. Yeah. She was onto a different point in her life. This also upset Karen. Sure. Yeah. She just felt like she lost her best friend. And it escalated. And it got to a point where Karen started a rumor about Missy saying that she was having sex with all kinds of boys at school. And see, and that rumor only does damage to like a female, right?

Female spreads a rumor about a female like that. If that was a guy spreading the rumor about another guy having sex with all these girls at school. He would say thanks for starting that rumor. Yeah. But you're right. It's very damaging to a female's reputation. Absolutely it is. Especially when it's unfounded.

I mean, it's really a pretty vicious rumor if you think about it. And there were consequences because we know from the high school days, once you hear a rumor or somebody hears a rumor, you know, you're not a journalist. You're not seeking the truth. You hear the rumor and most people assume that it's true, right? the rumor's going around it must be true yeah this is what happened to missy and the consequence was that she ended up getting jumped by a group of girls and they beat her they beat her up because some of these boys that karen was saying that missy was sleeping with well they were these girls boyfriends so obviously that didn't go over very well no i can't imagine that ever going over very well

And I think it's important to talk about, you know, Karen and Missy during their high school days. You know, they were not making great choices, right? They were skipping school. They did drugs. They were partying. Missy, who had at one time been enrolled in gifted classes, started to see her grades suffer big time. And both Missy and Karen would end up being transferred to San Fernando. mission. This was a school for students who had issues keeping up with their normal classes.

Oh, sounds like something I might have experienced. I was going to say that, but I was going to let you say it if you wanted to. I was helping you out there. I knew where you wanted to go with that. I could tell it might have been in your thought process. Could you see it in my eyes? Yeah. So you figured you jumped the train and get ahead of it. Cut it off right there. Cut it off at the pass. But technically they were still friends. Right. They weren't the inseparable best friends, but they were still friends. Even though, you know, Karen had spread this vicious rumor about Missy, they were still hanging out.

And when they wanted to be alone, they would drive up this one lane road to a very remote, heavily wooded part of Colby Canyon, which was located in the Angeles National Forest. And this is where they would go to party. drink beer. I'm assuming probably do some drugs. So go up there and smoke a little weed. Probably. Yeah.

They also carved the names of the boys that they liked into trees. You know, just, they're out in the woods. Nobody's going to see them. This was kind of their getaway hangout spot. The area was full of large rocks and there was a small creek. And you could only get to this place by foot. So you could drive so far. And then after that, you had to hike it on in?

Yep, then you had to get out of your car and go on foot. But the key point to make is that this was a place that Missy and Karen and Laura and some of their other friends knew very well. This was their hideaway. Definitely. Yeah. Some people have forts. They had this. And we're going to talk about the Angeles National Forest later on.

We've talked about it in other episodes. Yeah. And we're going to bring it full circle. Now, Missy began dating a guy named Randy when she was a junior. They only stayed together for about a month. Missy didn't approve of some of the things that Randy was doing. But they had not been broken up for a very long time when Randy got together with Karen. Oh, oh.

This sounds like some high school stuff. It's in the making. And it's not going to go well. Right. because you think about this now, right? Looking back on your experiences Gibbs or myself in high school, you think, you know, whatever happened, it was nothing. But at the time when you are in it and you're a hormone driven teenager, that's your world.

It is. And those type of things are, they're everything. You blow them out of proportion. way beyond what they really are. Were you a one girlfriend guy? I was. Very much so. Dedicated.

Until they broke up with me and then I get another girlfriend. Then I became a two girlfriend guy. They became a two girlfriend. But I was always one at a time guy. You'd be like, I'll take you back, but I'm going to keep this other one on the side for a while. No, that was not me. No, okay. So you were just definitely one woman guy.

Yeah, I just got broke up with a lot and had to find new girlfriend. Yeah, okay. That's good to know, especially if they were a little. listening. Why are you writing it in a book? Just in case they're listening. I don't want to know why you're keeping notes on me. Are you? I've been asked by somebody. I was going to say to jot this information down if it doesn't make the podcast. Okay. But as you can imagine, this would have created a lot of tension in the relationship between Missy and Karen, which was already kind of rocky. Right. They were friends, but, you know, some things had happened. The relationship wasn't on,

what you'd call steady ground. But then Karen sees Randy with Missy sitting on his lap. Now Karen and Randy are together at this point. Missy would tell Randy that she didn't want to get back together with him. She was not interested in him. And she told Karen that she shouldn't be dating Randy. She should break up with him. So I think she was trying to give her some good advice.

I think she knew what type of guy Randy was. Karen wasn't having any of it. And she stopped speaking to Missy for a time. And eventually they ended up getting in a physical altercation about 10 days before Missy died. So, you know, I think it's safe to say guys handle things a little more different, though. Wouldn't you think? I know I would.

I mean, if that was the case, it wouldn't have went on that long, right? it would have been pretty much confront, resolve, and then move on. I wouldn't have dragged it out. I think that's a very good motto. Confront, resolve, and move on. Yeah. There are some differences, right, in how some guys handle things versus how some women. Now, I can't stereotype, but it can't make that generalization.

But I think there are. I think most guys do CRM versus, you know, I just put that together with that. Now you've tagged it. Abbreviated it. Yeah. Giving it an acronym. Yeah.

Go get some shirts made up. CRM. Yeah, I would say that most guys, especially during that time, guys I knew and myself included, we weren't the, I'm not going to talk to you for weeks on in type of people. It was, I've got a problem with you. We're going to hash it out right now. Yeah. And the next thing you know, we're playing basketball.

Or you gave him a bloody nose. Or I gave the one little kid a bloody nose. Yeah. I was literally like five or six years old. This was very young. And he was two. But he was in his stroller. I just walked up.

He popped him right in his little nose. Jumped up and down like Rocky. No. I wish I knew what we got in a fight about, but I don't. So they get in this altercation. It happened at a local neighborhood park. There were witnesses that stated Karen threatened Missy with a broken beer bottle. She pushed her.

She slapped her. You know, it got physical. Then we move forward to, you know, 10 days later, October 2nd, 1985. Missy told her mom that she was going to hang out with a friend from school named Laura Doyle. We talked about Laura. They were friends. And Laura was described as someone that had an explosive personality. Apparently, when she was in junior high Gibbs, she would take a paper clip and carve

the initials of her current boyfriend in her palm. That's the kind of girlfriend you want it. That's extreme. It's a little extreme for me. She branded herself to you. Still, too extreme for me. Yeah, a little bit. But Laura Doyle picked up Missy and they took off for what they had planned for that day.

And Missy's mom, Irene, would later say that the two seemed happy. They were laughing. They were talking about boys. To her, it just seemed like. any other day. No reason for her to think that, you know, anything bad is going to happen. Definitely no reason for her to think that the worst possible thing in the world is about to happen. About four hours after Missy left with Laura, her mom received a phone call. It was Laura Doyle and she asked if she could speak with Missy. So Irene was pretty confused because she thought Laura and Missy

were together, Laura told Irene that she had dropped Missy off to talk with some boys at a park. These boys had a blue Camaro. And then Laura went to go get some gas for her car. And she told Irene that when she came back to get Missy, she wasn't there. She wasn't at the park. The boys were gone and their car was gone. So Irene thought this phone call was odd. This is about 6 p.m. when it happened, she had not heard from Missy.

She started to worry and then got even more worried when 8 p.m. rolled around and Missy never called. Because Missy said that she would call her mom around eight. Man, and you know her mom waited up all night, man, by that door, just waiting for her to come through the door. I remember growing up, you know, I had my curfew and I missed my curfew many times. And it never fell, man. My mom, because we, it's before we had cell phones. Same time frame, Missy went through. My mom.

This is before you even had phones. You had to send like a telegraph. Send somebody on a horse. Smoke singles. Sit up a smoke signal? Yeah. But, no, I mean, I'd get home. And I can tell my mom was right there. I could see her silhouette in the window, man.

I knew. You knew you were in for it. Oh, yeah. There was no getting by it. You know, she wouldn't go to sleep until we came home and she would make sure that she let us know how long she's been sitting in that window waiting for us. I've been standing here for four hours. Yep. There's a lot of moms like that. They cannot go to sleep until their kids are home for the night.

Yeah, yeah. It would have been better if we did have some cell phones back then. Well, I don't know. Not because then they could have found you. They could have triangulated you. That's right. All those crimes you were committing. She would have drove, found me, and dragged me by my ear.

She'd embarrassed you in front of all your friends. Yeah. All right, Gibbs. Let's take a quick break to talk about our sponsor, OMAX. No doubt that some days your brain can use a boost. Well, Gibbs and I have been using OMAX cognitive boost for a while now. I know at work, I feel more focused. And I started feeling that right away, like within a day or two of taking the product.

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After taking OMAX Cognitive Boost. Absolutely. Now, that's not going to be typical for everyone. No. That's more for the Goodwill Hunting, Gibby version. Yeah, and I solved why. Results are not typical. But it is. It's a great product. Clinically researched, all natural, no stimulants.

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I've talked about that on the show. She's now out of school for the summer. That's a very dangerous time for me. She has a lot of time on her hands, and she can do an amazing amount of shopping. But I might be able to focus her energy into changing up a space in our house using Havenly. That's going to save me a lot of money. It's going to save a whole lot of money. Because Havenly is the most amazing way to design space in your home. And you can do it on any budget.

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But she's worried. She's worried by this time. And she does do what you were just talking about. Gibbs. She waits up all night by the front door waiting for her daughter to come home. But she never comes home. And she would be missing for a couple of days, a couple of nights. Could not imagine.

No, that would be terrifying. If your daughter or son didn't come home for two days, two nights without not. Nothing. No messaging. No, no, no, nothing. No way to get a hold of them. The next thing that Irene would hear about her daughter would be from the sheriff's department. Deputies arrived at her home. And you know she knew. She knew when she saw them coming to her door, something was very wrong. Yeah, I mean, that's just not a good sign, man. You know, anytime the police come up to you. your house. I mean, it's just, especially knowing that your kid's been missing, you know, it's not good. And it's not good because they inform Irene that Missy is dead. Hikers had found her body

face down in a creek in a secluded area of the Angeles National Forest. Chunks of her hair had been sawed off, cut off, and her face and shoulders were covered with bruises. Missy had drowned in in a very small amount of water. What was described as about eight inches. But she was weighed down by a heavy log that was piled on top of her. Missy was 5'2 and she only weighed about 90 pounds. Yeah, that's a, it's a small gal. She was a small girl.

And it's going to come out that this log on top of her weighed about 100 pounds. Well, that's, that's, uh, and that's why it's important to talk about the fact that she only weighs 90. Right. And she's got dead weight on top of over 100 pounds of more than what she weighed. Yes. So this is where I, well, you know, I said it originally, I think we get into the area of the Shanda share case where, you know, you think, or you should be able to trust your friends. Yeah. I mean, lifelong friends, even new friends. I mean, really. If you consider yourself a friend to somebody and them and yours, the last thing you should have to worry about is going somewhere and not coming back. And these are not people that Missy had just met the week before, right? Think back about being 17 years old, because that's what they were, 17 years old this time.

Think about friends that you'd had since you were a little kid. So you'd known them eight, nine, ten years. would you ever have thought that they would do something this harmful? You know, you just don't know. I mean, I'll tell you that when I was in sixth grade, I had, I thought was a good friend, played football together, you know, pee-wee football. And I didn't think you were at the college level in sixth grade. Yeah, thanks for clarifying that.

Yeah, getting there, you know, just my 40 speed wasn't there yet. But so, you know, it was, you know, after practice and we were just doing some lapsing. around the field and stuff and then decided to go around and play around the baseball diamond and stuff like that, you know, for whatever reason, I got along with his dad, you know, and I guess he didn't like that. It was really weird, man, and now he was a much bigger kid than me at that time, you know, and next thing I know, I felt like a sharp blow to the side of my face from behind, and he picked up a big old rock and hit me in the face, and I was laying down next time I know he was beating me in the face with this rock.

Really? Yeah. This is the first I've ever heard of this story. Oh, it was the first time we ever needed to bring it up. I guess so. But, you know, left some scars and I remember his dad saw it and ran over and pulled us apart. And I just remember, you know, being bloody and stuff. And then, you know, after that, we were never friends again, of course.

I would say. But it was just really weird, you know. You hear you thought this was somebody. So you can't. See, that's the thing. You can't imagine it then. Well, yeah. I mean, I can and can't because, you know, I mean, I disassociate him as a, like I was ever friends,

but we were. We were hanging out. We did stuff together up until that moment. So I guess you just don't know what clicks in somebody's mind. So we have to talk about what happened that day. Missy's with Laura and they drive to the forest in one car. There were followed in another car that had Karen inside and a new. another friend named Eva.

And this Eva person's never going to be charged in relation to the crime. They park near the area that we talked about, right? Their party spot. Yeah, up in the mountains there. They walk down towards the water. And an argument breaks out about Randy. And that's why we had to talk about Randy. And this argument started to escalate.

Karen and Laura are kind of against me. Missy at this point, they start cutting off her long brown hair. And it's thought that, you know, this was a, almost like a form of torture for her. She really loved her long brown hair. That would be tort. I mean, if, you know, I mean, my, gosh, my daughter's hair is down way past, you know, her waistline. And man, anytime I even mention that getting her haircut, you think it's the end of the world. So, yeah, I can see that being torture. especially if somebody did it against your will. Yeah.

Yeah. When you didn't want it to happen. You know how valuable hair is. I do. But it's thought that it was, you know, some kind of torture or almost like they were, they were trying to make her less beautiful because they were jealous of her. And eventually this keeps escalating and it keeps escalating until Missy is being held underwater and she drowned. And it would be years later. that Karen would be on the Dr. Phil show, and she would describe the events of that day.

And she said they drove up into the big Tunga Canyon area of the Angeles National Forest. Karen and Laura confronted Missy about some of the things that she had been doing or some of the things they thought she had been doing, right, messing around with Randy, messing around with other people's boyfriends. They cut Missy's hair. And Karen says after they did that, you know, Missy started cussing at them. She was upset. And things got heated.

Rightfully so. Karen pushed Missy into Laura. Laura got Missy down into the water and straddled her. Now at this point, Karen says this is when she made the decision to walk away, not to help Missy, her best friend for, you know, however many years. She'd helped her so many times over the years in the past. And now all of a sudden, she makes the decision that she's not going to help her. She's going to turn her back on her. And you can watch this interview. It's out there. I mean, Karen's crying and she says, you know, my hands didn't kill her, but my walking away did.

Yeah, if that's true that she walked away, then absolutely it still does. did. But before she left, allegedly, she is the person that got the 100 pound log that would ultimately be found on top of Missy's body. Well, it had to take probably two people to put it on top of the body. Yeah, and it's one thing that we haven't talked about. We talked about Missy. She was very small, five to 90 pounds. Karen was much bigger. And there was talk that, you know, Karen had been Missy's protector over the years had looked out for her, had all, you know, always jumped in if anybody messed with her. Because like I said, Karen was a bigger. Yeah. And that's why I think when she talks about this, she makes the point to say that she had always had her back and this time

she turned her back on her. Right. So then it's a couple days later that Missy has found. But after that, things get very strange. Really strange. You know, after Missy was killed, Karen moved in with her family, with Missy's family, to comfort them. Now, this is something that Karen would deny later on, years later. But it's been confirmed by Missy's mother in a whole bunch of different articles that Karen moved in with them.

And Karen would go visit Missy at the cemetery after the funeral would bring, you know, would take flowers to put on her grave. She would also write letters to Missy. At Christmas time, she took a Christmas tree to the grave site. So maybe out of guilt? Out of guilt. Now, Karen would say that she did it to, because if she didn't do these things, it would be strange. Yeah, so she did it for the show? She didn't want anything to look out of the ordinary.

Yeah. So I think it's probably a little bit of both. I think she did feel some guilt, but I also think she was trying to save her own ass as well. You know, they had been best friends. They grew up together. Karen was essentially seen as part of the family. And what is so weird about this is that the family becomes even closer to Karen. after Missy's death.

You know, Karen is comforting Missy's mother Irene. She was there for all the emotions that the family experienced after Missy was gone. It's like she's trying to take Missy's place. And there are people that think that is exactly what she was doing. You know, she was jealous of Missy and now she stepped in to take her place. I mean, she sat with them at the table at Thanksgiving dinner. Again, almost as if she was a replacement for Missy. But Karen started drinking a lot after Missy was killed.

And when people asked her why she was drinking so much, she would say because she had lost her best friend. I think Gibbs is probably more about your line of, you know, she was feeling some guilt. And that's probably how she chose to deal with it. And then you talk about Laura Doyle, right? She's involved in this as well. she attended the funeral. She went over to the house.

She didn't like move in essentially, but she went over to their house, the family's house. She even sent Irene a sympathy card saying that she was heartbroken about what had happened to Missy. And apparently on a couple of occasions when she did go visit the family,

Laura talked about how depressed she was and that she wanted to harm herself because she was, was the last person to see Missy alive. No kidding. Yeah, she really was, but she's talking about her story of dropping Missy off at the park. Right. But in reality, Laura really was the last person to see Missy.

Yeah. Because she killed her. But I just can't get over the fact that, you know, these two 17-year-old girls can carry on this charade, you know, interacting with the family. doing all of this the whole entire time knowing exactly what happened to Misi Avala. Yeah, I mean, they're rolling it, you know, I mean, that's some gahonas. Now you're calling them gahonis? What do you think they should be said as? Well, it's pronounced cahonies.

That's what I said. I thought you said gahonies. You have to listen to tape back and see what it said. People always do. But you're right. I mean, it takes a certain kind of, I don't even know what the word is. Yeah, it's a whole different type of person, man,

to be able to, you know, hurt or in this case, murder somebody's daughter, and then sit there and share a meal with them, really? And comfort them and act like they're there for them. And ask them to comfort you? I'm going to hurt myself. I want to hurt myself, you know, because I miss her so bad.

Really? that's what you're going to say. Now, of course, Karen and Laura were questioned by police, and it was said that they were very cooperative. And Laura Doyle told her story to investigators that she had dropped off Michelle at Branford Park in Arletta. Then she went to go get gas, leaving Michelle there with a couple of boys who had a blue Camaro.

Very specific, right? That story is very specific. Yeah, very. Blue Camaro. She told them that when she returned, Michelle was gone, but they were trying to help the police solve Missy's murder. They even accompanied Irene on multiple occasions to the police station, this whole time knowing that they were responsible.

But eventually the police run out of leads and the case starts to go cold. And this is about three years on after Missy's death. But in July of 1988, the fourth friend that was with the trio that night, Eva, came forward and she told the real story of what happened that night. And the way that she tells it is that Laura and Karen started to yell at Missy while she was still inside the car. She was crying. They forced her out of the car. They started to push her, shove her.

They were calling her names. all of this was around their thought that Missy was sleeping around and sleeping with like their boyfriends, other people's boyfriends. Karen and Laura eventually lure Missy into the creek. They're pulling her hair. We talked about them cutting some of her hair, but she ends up getting pushed into the creek. And Eva would say that Missy was crying.

She was begging her friends, her best friends. to stop hurting her. Just can't imagine what this girl was going through at the hands of who she thought were some of her best friends. Yeah, what a terrible thought. But they didn't stop. Karen and Laura, they beat Missy up, you know, hit her in the face. This is where she would get the bruising around her face and her shoulders.

And at one point, one of her earrings got ripped out of her ear and ended up tangled in her hair. Eva goes on to say that Laura held Missy under the water until she had drowned. And then they had the idea Laura and Karen to make the body stay down in the water. They put the log on top. And getting back to this log, Gibbs, it was apparently four foot long. It weighed 100 pounds. So you're right. No way is that being done by one person. No. I'm not sure I could do that. That would be a struggle for me. It would be a struggle for me to get a hundred pound log four foot long and place it somewhere. Now for you, I know, no problem. You're a world-class deadlifter. Even with my hernia. Put that on one shoulder. You shouldn't be throwing anybody with your bad shoulder. And then Eva continues telling her story

that Karen and Laura went back to the car and they were calm acting as if they really hadn't done anything wrong. Eva was in the car and she asked them what happened. So this is where all this comes from. Eva was not a part of this and that's why she was never charged. And in her statement, Eva said a few minutes later, Karen and Laura came back. Karen jumped into her car, drove away. She got into the car with Laura.

And as soon as she got in, Laura said, we killed Missy. Eva asked Laura, are you sure she's dead? Laura said she is. And then she said, Missy deserved to die because she slept with Victor. So then again, this goes back to both Laura and Karen thinking that Missy was sleeping with their boyfriends.

Eva testified at a preliminary hearing that during the ride, while she was riding with Karen Severson on the way, Karen told her that she and Laura planned to scare Michelle. So this was planned, at least to some degree. Yeah, some form of premeditation, huh? Now, I don't know about the murder, but they were upset with her. They had planned ahead of time to get her out in the forest, scare her, beat her up, do whatever. And it ultimately went to the point of murder.

both Karen and Laura pled not guilty to one count of murder each. Karen also pled not guilty to kidnapping, false imprisonment, and aiding in the commission of a felony after the fact. That's what happens when you keep it in and lie for years and years and years. Three years. They kept this and they would have kept it if it had not been for this fourth girl Eva coming forward.

Right. I don't know if, police would have figured this out. So for three years, they acted as if they knew nothing about what happened to Missy, when in reality, they were there, they saw it, they participated in it, they knew exactly how Missy died. And it would come out that Laura, as I said, she was cooperative with police, but apparently she had changed her story over the years when questioned, because she saw.

started off with the story of dropping Missy off at the park. And then sometime later it changed to she dropped her off at a local church. And I think police knew that the stories didn't really fit. But I also don't think that they thought that Laura and Karen, who everybody thought of as, you know, best friends with Missy would have been the ones that had killed her. You know, they had been cooperative.

I guess they had tried to on their own figure out who was driving this blue Camaro. Well, there was no Blue Camaro, right? This was a story that was made up. There was no guys. There was no Blue Camero. And Missy's mom, Irene, would later come out and say that she knew that there was tension in the relationship. She knew they had been fighting over Randy.

And apparently Karen had come right out and said to Irene, that Missy was a person that would take someone's boyfriend and that she was a big flirt. This is something that Irene would say later. But I don't think in the beginning gives, even with this tension and I just don't think she ever dreamed that this girl that she had known for years and years had been almost like a daughter to her. You know what it's like when you have a really good friend that's over all the time. Oh, absolutely.

Yeah. Spending the night on the weekends. and this and that, I don't think Irene could have imagined that Karen could have had a hand in her daughter's death. But as you start to shed some of the layers of the relationship away, you start to see that this friendship was at this point in time when they're 17 years old was not what everyone maybe thought it was on the surface. There were people that would later come out and say that they knew Karen was jealous of Missy. Missy was prettier than Karen.

She was more popular. She had more friends. Karen seemed to start fights with Missy a lot. You know, it's that friendship jealousy thing, man, you know? There's always somebody in the group that doesn't like that. They don't like seeing somebody be more popular, more successful,

more getting more attention than they would get. Are you talking about me? Of course I am. I think you're right, but I also think part of it is, and what we alluded to before, Missy was going off. She was leaving Karen in a way. Kind of going off doing her own thing now. Right. She had different friends.

She was maybe more popular than Karen. Yeah, maybe more maturing in a different way. Exactly. Yeah. And I don't think Karen wanted the friendship to end. But she didn't have the control over it. Yeah, like you said, she was sort of protect her, but maybe more than that, you know, maybe, you know, she saw Missy differently, you know, and just always wanted to have her

around where Missy's thinking, you know, it's time for me to do my own thing. And all these things would come out after, you know, Missy's death. In the three-year period from the time that she was killed until the time that the girls were arrested that at the time, I don't think anybody made too much of. But after the fact, they set back and they thought, oh, well, that's pretty strange now that I think about it. So one of those was that apparently Karen would talk about how she was going to avenge Missy's death.

You know, Irene said that she told her, Karen did, told Irene, you know, when we find the animal that did this to her. I'll be sitting right by you in the courtroom. And again, I go back to it, Gibbs. How hard would it be? And I don't know if you and I, we can't answer this, but how hard would it be to keep up that lie? Well, I think it'd be.

Day after day for years. I think it could be hard, but, you know, some people really can turn that personality on, man, and, you know, they believe what they're saying is the truth. Maybe after a while they do. Yeah. I would agree. you very manipulated or manipulative and manipulative as well so you can only imagine how hurt irene was

when she found out who really had a hand in her daughter's death you know she felt betrayed because number one her daughter died number two she finds out that you know it's some of her best friends that had a hand in it but then the third part is she's been hanging out with these people, especially Karen, for the last two or three years. Yeah, that's crazy, man. Actually getting closer to her than she was before. She must have felt manipulated. I think she felt extremely manipulated.

How do you trust anyone after that? There's no way, man. There's no way you could ever, I don't think you could. So Karen was held without bail. and Laura was held with a million dollar bail. And I don't know how that happened. Because really Laura is the one that drowned Missy. But maybe it's just because at the time gives investigators,

even though they had Eva coming forward with the statement, the story, they didn't really feel like they had all of the answers. They spent a lot of time talking to people. This is a big case. You know, they probably put more. more time into this case than most other cases that they worked on. One of the things was that they thought, you know, for them, it was hard to believe that there were not more people out there that

knew about what had happened in the forest and had kept it quiet for three years. And I think that's pretty good thinking, you know, because we talk a lot about a lot of cases. People eventually like to talk. People always love the talk. There was a tree near where Missy was murdered. And on the side of this tree were some messages. There was one that said, we love you, Missy. There was a message that said 85, Randy plus Karen. And then there was a message that said Missy plus Karen forever.

There you go. In March of 1990, Karen and Laura were both convicted of second degree murder. and they were given 15 years to life. They didn't get convicted a first-degree murder because the jury just didn't think that the murder had been planned in advance. And I don't know that it was planned. I really don't.

I think they planned to do something, maybe even to hurt her or, as they put it, scare her. But I'm not sure that they went into this thinking that they were going to kill her. And obviously the jury didn't. didn't think that or they would have given you know they would have convicted them on first degree murder yeah but when they got there the rage set in and i think so i don't know that for a fact but i i think something like that happened but it was said that both karen and laura as their sentences

were read stared straight ahead they showed no emotion they didn't cry nothing i'm sure they didn't want to turn around and look at the mom, the one that they betrayed. No, but they're still pretty young, right? About 20 years old when this is all, yeah, 20, 21 years old when this is taking place. Boy, you would think that there would be tears, there would be something. But apparently there wasn't. But that's not the end of the story, right? This story is different than a lot of the true crime all the time episodes we talk about

because Karen and Laura get out of prison. And a lot of the people that we talk about Gibbs, they don't get out. No. Nope. Karen was released from prison December 9th, 2011. She served about 23 and a half years. Laura would be released from prison in December of 2012. So, you know, she served similar time, got out about a year later than Karen did.

but it's 2014 when Karen Severson started a huge controversy because she started promoting a memoir where she talked about how she had killed Missy. It was called My Life, I lived it. And in this book, she talks about how, you know, jealousy and boys and how the, you know, the intersection of those two were the reason that she had killed Missy. You know, she was frustrated and she had pushed Missy. She was fed up with Missy because she felt like Missy knew what she had been doing, but she never said that she was sorry.

She painted Missy as the bad person in this story in this, uh, in this situation. And the Avala family, they were furious about this book. And you can't blame them. I mean, not only did this person have a hand in their daughter's death. Now, many years later, she's going to write a book and, you know, kind of paint Missy in a bad light. And not only that, but she's going to try to sell this book.

So the family, you know, they want to fight this. It was very hurtful to them. They would say that it was like, it was like. It was like everything was opened up again, like they were losing Missy again. The family was fighting to bring some type of version of the son of Sam law to California. You know, this is the law that ensures that felons can't profit or make money from their crimes. But apparently the California Supreme Court had struck down the law in 2002 because they said it violated the First Amendment. I'm just so happy and excited with all the response we've gotten.

I never, in my wildest imagination, think we had so many people out there that cared about us so much. 29 years ago, Missy was murdered by her friends Laura Doyle and Karen Severson. Both are now out of prison. And last week, we talked to Karen about her new memoir where she describes the crime. I will tell you about my life. I'm the only one that could tell you I lived it. Karen now works as a telemarketer and says she's donating a portion of the crime. of her salary, book sales, and possible proceeds from an upcoming documentary to an anti-bullying campaign.

Donate everything? I didn't say everything. I have to live. And it's hard to get a job out there. What do you say somebody who says there are other ways to make money? Like what? So myself? At the time, Irene was outraged. She's getting away with it all over again. The book's distributor then changed the book's price to zero, ensuring Karen won't profit from it. On Facebook, the distributor writing that this book is being offered free of

charged. This was not meant to be a moneymaker for Karen's personal use. It would have been used to fight against bullying. So in that clip, you get to hear Karen Severson, you know, as an adult, out of prison. She doesn't come off that great, Gibbs. Not at all, man. Not impressed. So the family is working to get this law passed in California. They wanted it to be called Missy's Law. And in that clip, you know, Karen says that she's going to donate a portion of money from the book sales and any documentaries to anti-bullying organizations, but not all of it, a portion. And what is that portion going to be?

10%, 5%, 1%, and then she's going to profit from the rest of it. Now, I get an author, right, who picks a subject to write about and they interview people, they're going to make money off of that crime covering that crime. But they didn't commit the crime. And I think that's where the big difference is, right? They're doing work and they're interviewing family members and they're putting out a book, just like we're doing this podcast. We're telling the story.

What would it be like, Gibbs, if we were doing a podcast about a victim that we killed? That would be horrible. It would be. It just wouldn't be right. And when she says, what do you want me to do, sell myself? Like that's the only way that she could make money. Now, I get it. She has a record.

So probably not the easiest thing to, you know, find work, get a job. But she has a record for a reason. You know, she did something that was heinous. Unforgivable. So I don't know who's crying over the fact that she's having a hard time finding a job. She made her bed. But you also heard Irene. talk about she's getting away with this.

And she was sobbing in that clip. Heartbreaking, man. Yeah. I mean, she is wondering how Karen can get away with this, how she can put her and her family through all of this again, cause them more pain. Again, I mean, she was clear again. I mean, here's this lady, you know, this girl,

this is now woman, but took her daughter from her. took everything from her. And then she turns around and lives with her and interacts with her like she's a saint trying to help her get through it just to portray her again. And then couldn't let it lay. Then decided to tell a story about her daughter

and not even a positive one and puts a negative message about her dead daughter into print for everybody to see. hoping to capitalize and make money off of it. Yeah. Really? I mean, you're going to do that to this lady, this mom that's went through hell, and you've been a cause of this hell initially, and then set with her, acting like you cared about her, just to protect yourself, then to portray her, and then you're going to turn around and write a my life book. No, it's just like, it's just taking salt and rubbing it directly.

into the womb. That's what it is. Now, Karen would come out and say that Missy did not deserve to die. She maintained that the murder was not planned. And she says that, you know, that was my friend too. People don't seem to realize that. I don't have a friend. You know what? When you decide to turn your back and walk away, it was no longer your friend. You said, you're not that important to me. I don't care what happens to you. I'm going to walk away. I'm not going to have. help you. At that point, you gave up your friendship. Trust me. She didn't see you as a friend and she saw your back walking away. It might have been one of the last things she saw. But Irene fires back and is quoted as saying, tell her to go to hell. I am her worst nightmare. So, you know, this mom,

she's disgusted. Well, you know what? She has every right to be. I agree with you. Yeah, I really admire how she's standing up to, you know, her and taking her straight on. I agree with you Gibbs. I admire the way that she stood up and she fought, but it wasn't her alone. It was her whole family fighting. And then when they started to do these news stories, like the reporter that you just heard, and the public starts hearing about how Karen is trying to make money off this book and the death of Missy, people got pissed. And they should, man. I mean, I'm pissed just thinking about it. it. It's just not right. And you heard Irene in the clip when she kind of, she was touched, right, about how many people started to reach out. What the response was to, you know, Karen Severson trying to profit off this book. And they took to Facebook. They took to flooding the publisher

with negative comments. And this forced the publisher to change the price of the book to zero. Good for the publisher. Well, they had to. You know, they probably never took the story in the first place, but... Probably not. But ultimately, they did the right thing. Now, to be fair to them, I think Karen probably said that she was going to use the money from the book for this anti-bullying campaign. What they didn't know, maybe, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, is that it was going to be a very small portion, most likely.

Yeah, because a big publishing company. company probably didn't have attorneys to look at everything before they rolled the book out. I mean, I'm being sarcastic, of course, but, you know, I mean, it's good that you're given the benefit of the doubt. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know that it was a big publishing company. Well, that's true, too. We weren't there. We don't know. Because I think this was rolled out on Amazon. I think, well, that's different then. Because in something that I saw, they changed the price of the book on Amazon to zero. Yeah, I just think, man, it's terrible, man. No one should ever have the right to profit from somebody's death.

You had a hand into the death of that person. Yeah. So that's what they're fighting for. So the family is working hard to get this Missy's law passed. And it was eventually signed in October 2015. That's good. No, it's good. It's a good thing, right?

The bill is meant to protect the families of those impacted by, you know, crime. And they were, they celebrated. this. Governor Jerry Brown has signed a new bill to help protect families of crime victims, the family of a woman who was murdered, advocated for the law after her killer wrote a book. They didn't want convicted criminals to profit from their crimes. Because of the First Amendment, the bill can't stop criminals from actually telling their stories. But what it can do is require companies to tell victims' families about the projects. He puts the power back into the victim or the family or the next step kin. So it's not going to stop.

people like Karen Severson from going on television, right? She was on Dr. Phil after she got out of prison telling her story or telling her side of the story. But it does help curb that ability to profit. And I'm with you, Gibbs 100%. You shouldn't be able to have a hand in someone's death and then later on make a bunch of money from something horrible that you did. Yeah.

How does that make any sense in the society that we live in today? Now, this story has been made into a book. It's called Missy's Murder, written by Karen Kingsbury. There was a TV movie called A Killer Among Friends, had Tiffany Amber Theson and Patty Duke in it. Tiffany Amber Theson from the, say, By the Bell Days. Which you were a huge fan. I was a huge fan.

You'd like that, what's it? Skeeter. Screech. Screech. Where you get Skeeter from? I don't know. You were a screech fan. I was not a screech fan.

I was a big Tiffany Amber Theson fan. You probably still held a poster up on a wall somewhere. And I mentioned Gibbs that I wanted to talk a little bit about the Angeles National Forest. This is where Michelle was killed. Yeah. But there have been so many bodies dumped in this forest throughout the years. You know, we talk about this from time to time. where we're researching a story only to get sidetracked onto this other thing that's not really

connected, but it's a whole other crime that either happened in the same area. When you start researching this, you start to see how many bodies have turned up in this force. And of course, it's a big area. Sure. It's a big remote area. Yeah, it covers thousands of square miles, I assume. Not just killers, but people that we've talked about. Yeah. So infamous people, you know, Randy Kraft, the scorecard killer, he left at least one victim in this forest. Angelo Bono, part of the Hillside Strangler duo that we covered. He abandoned a body there. And then we haven't talked about this one yet. It's on the list. But Joe Hunt, who was part of the billionaire boys club. Yeah. Is said to have dumped a body there as well. Really? So infamous killers, but then just a whole bunch of other victims have shown up in this forest, have been left there.

So the thing to this is if someone says you don't know. You want to go out to the Angeles National Forest? Want to go for a ride? You say, not today. I do not. Today's not a good day. Don't do it. So as we wrap up this story, I want to talk about Missy's mother, Irene, a little bit.

Some of the things that she said in interviews over the years, she talked about how the family planned to move. There was just too many painful memories in that house. And I get that. I think it would be hard to remain in the same house after, you know, losing a loved one like that. It'd be difficult because of that. But then on top of it to have the person that killed your daughter or a hand and that lived there as well.

That would be tough. and Karen Severson's family still lived on the same street, right? They were neighbors. This is how the kids grew up. So the Severson family is still living there. How hard would that be to leave your house, look over and see the house, the family of the daughter that had a hand in the death of your daughter? That would be very tough. It'd be really tough.

But just inside your house, right? To me, I would think, and I've never had to experience this, so I can only speculate, but I would imagine that everywhere you went in that house, there would be something that would remind you of your daughter. You know, she played over here and it flashes through your mind 15 years ago. You can picture the Christmases and the opening of the presents and things. Thanksgiving dinner, it would be brutal. It really would. And Irene has said that, you know, for her, it will never be over. You can't get over losing a child. That just doesn't happen. And that's

something that you and I have touched on. You don't, you would never get over it. Never. I think some people maybe learn to live with it, but it would be a devastation for the rest of their lives. Right, Gibbs, that's it. That is the story of the murder of Michelle, Missy, Avala. It scares me. As a father with, you know, two teenage daughters, this one, this one really scares me. It does, man. It just makes you, you know, think, can you really ever trust anybody, you know? And your kids say, hey, I'm going to go camping with Michelle and, uh, Tiffany, you're like, I don't know about that, you know. Right.

But then when you think, well, they've been friends for 10 years, right? These are my daughter's best friends. Why would you give it a second thought? Well, you wouldn't. That's the thing, you know. I mean, you got to believe in humanity that, you know, this is rare, clearly. We just, you know, we've talked about it in a couple months more than, you know, it would ever happen, but still shocking.

Yeah, I get you believe in humanity, but some of the things that we cover, they make you question humanity a little. At least they do me. Well, I think so. Absolutely, they do. All right, Gibbs, we've got some voicemails. You want to hear those? I do. And I think we got a real special one for the first one.

Hey, Mike and Gibby. My name is Megan, and I'm Kelsey. We are from Shattagachau, a very small town in Way upstate New York. We are both big fans of T-Cat and T-Cat unsight. all. Our dad, Doug Niemeyer, is the one who introduced us to your podcast and has been a huge influence on our obsession with true crime in general. Thanks, Dad. We're actually calling because Dad turned 60 on June 3rd, so we want to not only give him a birthday shout out, but because it's one of his favorite parts of your show,

we were hoping Givie could maybe wish him a happy birthday in one of his always accurate accent. Personally, I'm hoping for Australian. North Scottish. It's definitely British. Thank you guys for all the hard work and time you put into the podcast every week. Happy birthday, stay safe and keep your own time ticking. Ah, happy their birthday, Douga. Or, ha.

I'm trying to think of it. I don't know what the first one was. It was kind of Scottish, a little Australian. Yeah, yeah. It was something. Yeah. I just can't perform on command. Yeah, that was rough there.

Yeah. Anyway, happy birthday, Doug. Yeah, really. It's like I said in the beginning, warms my heart to think that they would, number one, they're big fans of the show. Yeah, which is really cool. But their dad turned them on to the show. He's a super fan. And for them to think of that, it makes me feel good.

It makes me feel good, too, might. And I hope Doug feels great. Because what I just realized Gibbs is today is, his birthday. It's it right now. The day that this episode drops, it's it will be June 3rd. Happy birthday. Happy birthday. Newmire. Yeah. Today's your day. It's his day. So love it. I love it. Hi, Mike and Giddy. This is Abby from Colorado Springs, the one with the nightmares. Just wanted to call you and let you know I'm back at it. I'm doing good. No other nightmares. Thank you so much for all of your work on the podcast. I love it. I love all of the research that goes into it.

And I really appreciate everything you do. I'm totally team Fergie all the way. Thank you so much. Stay safe. Keep your own time kicking. Aw, was that a team Fergie? And as you would say Gibbs, why wouldn't it be? Why wouldn't it be? Team Furgy. Isn't that what you always say? So we scared, we scared Abby. Yeah. And I forget which episode it was. She told us before and I can't remember. But she's back.

Abby's back. Just like your M&M song. Yeah. Hey, Mike. Hey, Gibby. This is Lee from Houston. I was just calling to tell you guys that I love your podcast. I just found it a couple of months ago.

And I've been binging on it. I've listened to all of the original True Crime all the time episodes. And now I'm trying to go back and listen to all of the Unsolved episodes. I just, I really love it. You guys are the best part of my Monday. day. So thanks for all the hard work and all the entertainment. And stay safe and keep your own time ticking. Well, we appreciate that, Lee. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, it is awesome. And I think a lot of people do it that way. You know, they go through true crime all the time. There is a segment of the

population that doesn't like the unsolved cases. Right. But eventually, you're going to run out of true crime all the time until the next Sunday. So why not try true crime all the time unsolved? Exactly. And then when you get through both, both the podcast, what a lot of people find is really entertaining is if you play them both, pick episode one and both and play them at the same time. It's really interesting to hear the crisscross of the podcast going on. Just try it. You're like it. I thought you were going to say playing backwards. There's a hidden message. I never did that once, you know, so I don't want to. You know, I'm trying to give them a different way to do it.

So play one in one ear, one in the other, and see if you can keep up. But it is about, you got about 150 in total now. Yeah. Between the two. Or play it back in Spanish. Hi, guys. This is Alchari. Actually, my real name is your show at Kavanaugh.

In my area, which is also known as Little Kold, two of his son. in the late 19th scene fascinating tale. I just wanted to put that little suggestion out there. Have a good one, guys, and keep your own time ticking. Bye. Awesome. Great voicemail from Samantha, aka Deb Ochery. Yeah.

She wants us to go to what state, Gibbs? Illinois. Bring on the noise. Bring on the noise. We'll have to check that case out. Hi, Mike, hi, Gibby. This is Anaya from Fresno, Texas, that I love you guys. I listen to you, whether I'm driving or at work, doing data collection. And it just makes the time go by so fast. I'm team both of you guys. I feel like there's not one without the other. It'd be kind of bleh. But I just wanted to tell you guys, I appreciate all the hard work you do. Also, I just recently joined your social media on Facebook. And oh my God, not only just a shout out to you both, but everyone in the community on Facebook, you guys rock.

And I hope to be a part of that for a very long time. Thank you for everything again. And as always, keep your own time ticking or I might need to watch. Bye. So, Gives, we haven't talked about the Facebook group in a while. No, no in a while. It is grown exponentially. There is a lot of people in that Facebook group.

There is. I mean, so we got, so the two T-CAT, T-Cat-T-Cat-unsolve normal pages, right? And then we have the T-Cat. Normal, when you say normal. Just the- Like the official Facebook pages for each. Yes. And then we have the T-Cat group, private group page, right, which is like close to 12,000 people now, which is cool. And then you have the T-Cat family page.

And, of course, you got the T-Cat-Fit page. Sure. I'm anxious to see what they come up with next. But that big one, that 12,000 T-CAT. Yeah, the private group one. Private group page. There is some really cool people in there. And there's a lot of great discussion.

And it is almost like it has a family feel to it. It does. And the family one does too. I mean, well, that one, yeah. Yeah, just a lot of caring, good people. And that's good. She found that, you know, I mean, especially if you're doing data collection all day.

Well, she's collecting all this data. What are you doing with it after you collect it? Data collection. I need more info. I would need an outlet for sure. Well, true crime. True crime. That's it.

All right. So that's it for the voicemails. We appreciate those. Awesome. Now it's time to see what we got in the mail this week. What did you get in the mail today? We got some pottery. Yeah.

Some amazing coffee mugs from Meredith at Fern Street pottery. Thanks, Meredith. And she sent one to me and one to you. Mine says Mike. Yep, mine says Gibby. Your says Gibby, and on the back, they say, keep your own time ticking. They are amazing.

Mine was inscribed on the bottom, was yours? No, huh? Oh, it was like, you're the best, Team Gibby. No, mine didn't say that. Bottoms up? No. No. That says, Meredith, it's mine a little secret.

Keep your chaps on. Keep your chaps up. And then I got a Harley Chip from Alistair, Salas, who I think you said was French. French. And he's not because he sent me a chip from Abingdon in the UK. That's where a lot of the French population live in England. In Avigden. I'm probably saying that wrong anyway. So thank you, Alster. Appreciate that. And then Kendra Davidson. I talked about Kendra. She sent me the chip. It was gone.

Slid out the slot. Somebody allegedly took it. Yeah. Because I know she sent it. Well, she sent another one. Oh. From Saskatoon. Saskatoon. Saskatoon. In Canada. So that was very cool.

Was it like super taped and everything? It's like it would not. She actually went and in the letter she says she went overboard. She put it in like three. It was like a turduckin. Yeah. She put it in one thing inside a bubble wrap, inside another container inside something else. This one wasn't getting away.

No. She wouldn't take it. I put a little tracking device on it. Probably. Here's your $1.99 poker chip. that you want it, but it cost me $250 to get it to you. Now you got me paranoid. There's like a camera and... That'd be cool.

A little bitty microphone on it. All right, everyone. That is it for another episode of True Crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.