True Crime All The Time - The Papin Sisters

Episode Date: February 11, 2019

Sisters Christine and Lea Papin committed a horrible brutal murder in France in 1933. Both sisters were live in servants in a big mansion owned by the Lancelin family. They had worked there dutifully for many years but over time their work began to fall off. It was pointed out often by the woman of the house, Leonie Lancelin, often in cruel ways as the the sisters would later say. One night they decided they weren't going to take it anymore.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss one of France's most notorious crimes. The sisters said they acted in self-defense but the crime scene details were such that the claim was impossible to believe. Many people said the sisters were strange and insinuated that the two were lovers. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationSponsors:Ziprecruiter.com/tcattSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 117 of the true crime all the time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you? Hey man, I'm good. How about you? I'm doing great. Yeah. I'm doing great. Every time I say we're in the 100 something. Yeah. It just doesn't seem real. Blows you away, doesn't it? It does. It blows me away. Yeah. I'm fighting a little cold. A little nasally maybe. You're a lot better than I thought. I thought. you would be, you know, talking to you earlier this week, you sounded like you were going to be a real 50-50 for- Definitely questionable. Recording.

You have to bring in a backup. You have to tag in like WWE. Yeah. Like, hey, Morf, you need to do a guest appearance. Tag team wrestling. Yeah. So how are you doing, man? I'm doing good.

Good. I'm doing great. I'm feeling good. I've been eating pretty healthy. That's good. I've been exercising. Yeah. a little bit.

Okay. I'm trying to get into a routine. Yeah, that's the toughest part, man. You know, for me, I'm a routine type of guy. Yeah. If I can start the routine, I'll keep doing it. 21 days. Is how long it takes?

That's what they say. 21 days. That's how you go from a start to a habit. I thought that was smoking to not smoking. I think it's everything. It might be everything. Yeah. So we'll see.

I really am focused on trying to eat better, trying to exercise a little bit. It's all good stuff. Yeah. Well, keep it going. All right, let's do our Patreon shoutouts. We had Becca Pierce. Hey, Becca.

Michael Grooner. Thank you, Michael. Teresa Brower jumped out at our highest level. Hey, Teresa. Tara Holcomb. Hey, Holcomb. Lori Callahan. Hey, Laura.

Lauren DeCocco. DeCocco. Yep. Erica. Thanks, Erica. Kristen Montgomery. Hey, thank you. Kimberly Angel.

That's awesome. Erica Raalbotham. Thank you, Erica. Ali Sandel. Thank you, Ali. Ryan Williamson. Thank you. Aaron Pruitt.

Awesome. Angie S. Hey, Angie S. Frederick. Frederick. Lisa Andrews. Thank you, Lisa. Paula White jumped out at our highest level.

Oh, thank you so much. As did Aaron loses. Thank you, Aaron. Tiffany Lumley. Tiffany. D. Just D. Just D.

Just D. Yeah. Risa. Acid Man. Thank you, Asimmon. Christine Hernandez. Hey, thank you, Christine. And Judas Stein.

Hey, Judith. So big shout out to all those new Patreon supporters. And then if we go back into the Vault Gibbs. Going back in the vault. This week we selected Kirsten Chan. Hey, thanks, Kirsten. So longtime supporter, that's very much appreciated. Yeah, love that.

We appreciate all the new support, the continued support. It's amazing. Yeah, good stuff. We have a lot of PayPal support as well. Okay. Wayne Hodge. Hey, Wayne. Kate Massey.

Thanks, Kate. Michelle Hetergot. Hetergot. Hedder got. Hatter got. Jennifer Gunnan. Hey, Gunn. Jackie Holland.

Hey, Jackie. And Gary Mous. Hey, Gary. So that's good. I like that. Appreciate that as well. Loving all the support. Yeah, it's great.

We had a monthly Patreon merch winner for January. Oh, cool. And it's Jacqueline Gough. Hey, Jacqueline. It's been a fan for a long time. Yeah. Big LSU fan, big on Twitter, social media. So that is awesome.

Thank you for being around as long as you have exactly and then I did want to make an announcement I've been working on some new shirts new shirt designs some of them say T-Cat yeah some of them say T-Cat team Gibby team Fergie team Mike there's variations of those some say stay safe and keep your own time ticking on the back yeah I've got some T-cat it's interesting oh there you go T-cat gibby is my cousin lives in Illinois. Oh, that's another one. I got to throw that on.

So I'm just trying out some different variations, some new things. We haven't put much new out in a while. Yeah. Cool. See how it turns out. Yeah. So check those out. So on Unsolved.

Yeah. I mentioned this is 117. This week Unsolved is the big 100th episode. It is. And we've already mentioned it. We're doing the West Memphis 3, the murders of Stevie Branch, Michael Moore, Moore, Christopher Byers. It's a big case.

It's a huge case, man. And, you know, when you, when you research a case like that, it's information overload. Yeah. Especially with that case because it got so much media attention, everybody and their brother has written about that case distilling it down to not just the facts, the correct facts. Well, I would say that's more it, right? It is. What's actually the correct facts, not what people are trying to imply are the correct facts.

And I think you and I both said it before we started recording. I was surprised to see the split on the internet. You know, how many people think that they are guilty? Right. How many people think that they're not. I would have thought much more on the side of not guilty. And that still may be true. Right.

but the folks that believe they're guilty, they have a big voice on the internet as well. Oh, sure they do. And we'll talk about that as we get into the case. But it's out now. Check that out. All right, Gibbs, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all time? I am ready. We are going backaways to the 1930s. We're also going to France. Hmm. Country we've never been. I like that. I'm literally physically never been to France and we've never done an episode in France. Get some French fries. Get some French fries. And the case that we picked is the Poppin sisters. Yeah. And I'm struggling with saying their name.

We've heard it a few ways. He heard it three or four different ways. What we've settled on is Poppin. Yes. That's the way I've heard it pronounced the most. And we called a couple people in France. Did Gibby called them because he speaks fluent French. Yes.

And I asked them and they said, yeah, pop in. he actually doesn't speak French, but he says his question in a French accent, they immediately know exactly what he's saying. We. That's the one word you probably know. Yeah. I talk like a, remember the little skunk on the cartoon? Pepe Lepeot.

Pepe le Pew. It's, uh, you know what I'm saying? Then I go into my Italian. I was going to say that it's just automatically morse to Italian. But, you know, France and Italy, they're right by each other. It happens very commonly. And the languages are so similar. Yes.

But that's what we're doing. Christine and Leah Poppin, they were responsible for what many believe is one of the most heinous crimes in the history of French criminology. Yes, one of the most brutal, horrific crimes that they've ever seen. And I think you're going to feel the same way as we get into the details. And obviously, it's an old case, right? going back to the the early 1930s, what really struck me, Gibbs, was in researching this case, how many papers in America covered it. Yeah.

And I don't mean with like little blurbs on page eight. That was front page kind of stuff. Yeah. And like full, they dedicated full pages, sometimes two full pages to this story. It was, it was massive. It was big news for sure. So Christine and Leah Poppin, they spent their early years in villages around LaMau in Western France. I'm going to say it La Malle like they would in France.

Le ma'amont, Le Mans. Le Ma'amour. Lehmann. Yep. Christine was born in 1905. Leia was born in 1911. And that name Leia. You know, I can't say that name without thinking Princess Leia.

Yeah. You and your Star Wars. I know. I made up with Star Wars. I love Star Wars. You and your lightsaber. They were born to Gustav and Clemens. It's a...

Gustav. Gustav. This is Gustav from, like, from, like, Beauty and the Beast? Isn't that Gustav? This is either a guy that tries to get Bell. You didn't see Beauty and the Beast. Oh, I... I'll tell you this.

My oldest daughter was so in love with that movie. She would watch it four or five times a day. Yeah. So I think mentally I've had to block it out so that I didn't lose my, you know what. Right. Because it just was on repeat. Yeah. You're right.

You see it so many times. You eventually just. It's Gaston. Gaston. Gaston. That's what it was. I knew I was going to think about it. It's close, right?

Same thing. Yeah. It all started with his G. So mentioned 1905, 1911. They were, you know, six years apart and age. But these sisters, apparently. had a very strong bond. They did have an older sister named Amelia.

Yes. Or Amelia, depending on how you want to say it. It's French. So you can go either way. She was born in 1901, but they didn't have a great childhood. You know, their dad was an abusive alcoholic. Yeah. He sexually assaulted the girls.

The dad, Gustav was caught raping the oldest daughter when she was. She was just 10 years old. Yeah. 10 years old, man. It's sickening. But their mom had her own issues. It was said that she really wasn't meant to be a mother. No, I don't think she wanted to have anything to do with motherhood.

I read a lot about her being called hysterical. It also said that she had low morals. Yeah, that's a pretty vague statement, but it's usually not good. No, especially back then. I'm guessing it was. even probably worse. To have low morals. I don't know.

I think you can let your imagination run wild when you say somebody has low morals. Yeah. That could mean a lot of different things. It really could, man. It's all into interpretation. It can be honesty. It can be, you know, sexually. Yeah.

It can go a lot of ways. Now, eventually, the girls' parents divorced. And the mother sent Christine off to live with Gustav. sister. Then she sent Amelia off to a convent. Yeah, but not for the right reasons. I don't think. I think she did it more for in her way, more of a punishment. Well, there was talk reporting that indicated that their mother believed Amelia seduced her father. How could you believe that a 10-year-old, being sexually assaulted by their father was the seducer. I don't get that at all.

No. But that's, especially a mother. Well, you know, maybe she just wasn't that educated because how do you even think a 10-year-old would have the capacity to even do that? But I think you're right,

Gibbs. I think she sent her off to the convent. Number one, to punish her for this, what she believed happened. because the convent was a place that was known for extremely tough discipline. They were harsh if you got out of line. Yeah, for sure.

And I think she was hoping that her daughter would experience that discipline and harshness. Yeah, but number two, and we mentioned it, I don't think she wanted to be a mother. I don't think she was meant for it. I don't think she liked it. I think she was slowly figuring out a way to get out from under this motherhood. She didn't want to raise her kids. No. She wanted to be by herself and not have that responsibility because ultimately she's going

to send the youngest Leah off to live with her great uncle. So at that point, she's done. She's left Gustav. She's single and freedom mingle. Yeah. Now, he said that she sent Christine off to live with Gustav's sister. Right. But then she pulls her back.

Yeah. Sends her to the convent to be raised by the nuns. And I don't think it's enough to say that she just wanted to be free of her daughters. The fact that she sent Christine to the convent as well. It's almost as if she wanted them to experience. hardship. Yes. Punishment. Exactly what she wanted. Maybe she grew up hard and rough and, you know, thought, well, you need to experience what I experienced. They should too. Yeah. But that's not exactly what happened, especially in the case of her oldest daughter, Amelia, she did great. She flourished

being away from her parents. And really, if you think about it, Gibbs, how could she not? I mean, her father sexually abused her when she was very young. Her mother really wasn't a mother at all. She gets out from under that into what was probably a hard but stable environment. Yeah. And she flourishes, which is great, you know. I mean, she just needed to be on a better path. Well, and with the strictness and the rules and, you know, it's kind of, if you want to be on a good

path. That's a good place for it because the rules kind of are designed to guide you in a in a certain direction. Very straight line. Yeah. But also she has her sister Christine with her. You know, at a certain point at the convent. And they became very close during that time. Amelia took it as far as actually becoming a nun. Yeah, which was great for her, but it didn't set well with the mom because the mother's plan all along was she didn't want to raise her kids. She wanted somebody else to do that work. And then at the right age, she wanted her kids to come back to her so she can place them in different households as either chambermaids, maids, any type of worker so that they would earn the income to help support her. And send the money back to her.

And so that's what she wanted. They were just going to be little workers for her for the rest of her life. So she was pretty upset when she found out that her oldest daughter, became a nun. When Christine wanted to follow her sister, her older sister, down that same path, she wanted to become a nun as well. But as you mentioned it, mother was not happy. She needed these girls to help support her.

So she took Christine out away from the convent. She was not going to let her become a nun. She was not going to lose out on that potential money. No, she would get her and put her right to work right away, cleaning homes and the little town that they lived in. Didn't waste any time. And Christine had skills, right? That was something that they taught in the convent, how to clean, how to cook. So the mom has Christine working.

And Christine is expected to give her mother her pay. But her mom wasn't happy with the amount that she was making. She kept moving her from household to household because she thought she should be making more money. Yeah, because she wanted a bigger chunk. Well, she wanted it all. She was taking it all. She just wanted more of it. More of it.

Yeah. But that wasn't enough. She brought Leah back home from her great uncle and put her to work as well. And the sisters ended up working together. Yeah. In the same houses. And they became inseparable. You know, we mentioned it early on.

They already had a very deep bond growing up. Some of that could have been the bad childhood. Could have been. That they experienced, made them bond together, cling tightly to each other. I think that happens in certain circumstances. I believe that. Well, and I think that, you know, they work together all the time, but they don't really talk a lot. You know, people don't see them talking a lot.

they see them together all the time and then it kind of freaks some people out because I think that they feel there's some form of telepathic abilities that they have you know they see these girls always together but they're not talking but yet you know they're doing things together so how do they know what each one's wanting to do if they're not talking and I think it it does make a little people some people uneasy but then I think if you ever known any twins growing up, I always thought it was interesting that they would know what the other one was thinking without talking to them. I mean, they could tell. And I think you're around somebody long enough. You kind of know what that person's going to do or say.

Yeah, I try to predict what you're talking about half the time. Well, you're always going to, that's a 50-50 shot, too, man. I mean, we're not twins, but I feel like I am trying to read your mind when you're talking about a movie or Brad Pitt was in this movie and he had something around his neck. Now, everybody in the audience knows it. Yeah. I've never seen it, but I'm trying to figure it. That was a good movie too, man. I know you keep saying that. Yeah. But you're right. You know, getting back to this what people thought was almost like, like you said, some type of telepathic communication. People would come out later and say they did think it was creepy. And they described the sisters as very cold, distant.

I don't think they were to each other, but to all outsiders, everybody else, they were seen as aloof. Yeah, I think they were just into themselves, you know? That was their world, was each other. Then we get to 1926. And that was the year that Christine finally landed a permanent job as a live-in servant and a big mansion. So that's like a big step up because you will get your wages. You have a place, free living, free food. It's more of a premium style job back in that day.

The mansion was owned by Renee Lanselin, who was a retired lawyer and his wife Leone and their one grown-up daughter, Genevieve. So that's who lived in the house. Yeah. They also had another daughter that moved out right before Christine. moved in because she got married and lived in the same town. But Gibbs, it was kind of a wonder that she, Christine, even got this job with the Lanselins because one of her previous employers had warned the family not to hire her.

They said that she was extremely arrogant. She thought certain duties, household duties were beneath her and she wouldn't do them. Yeah, that is surprising because, you know, when you, you're, you're going to be a chambermaid, a maid. I mean, you're basically going to do anything and everything that the owners of the estate wants you to do. Sure. So this mansion was located in the town of Le Mans, France.

Christine worked really hard for the first couple months, and she was able to convince Leone to hire Leia as a chambermaid. And I think that was probably pretty easy, you know, if you're using yourself as a reference because, you know, she could see how hard Christine was working. And I would assume she would think, well, if you work that hard, your sister will work that hard. Sure. It's got to be in your bloodline.

You're just a hardworking family. I would agree with you. I mean, whether it was a relative or someone you were suggesting, the fact that you're a hard worker tells me that the person that you're telling me to hire probably has a similar work ethic that you do. Yeah. That's who you associate yourself with, less likely. I would think that.

Now, that's not always going to be the case, but... You have a better opportunity that way. Sure. You're not going to take the word of somebody that comes in late, 45 minutes every day and say, Hey, why don't you hire this person? They're great. Yeah. What?

They're great like you? Yeah, we hang out all the time together. Yeah, you're the one that comes in 45 minutes late every day. You take an hour and a half lunch. You leave 15 minutes early. And your TPS reports are never on time. Yeah, there you go. TPS.

Here's your stapler. go to the basement. But this was tough work for Christine and Leah. Not just tough, but they worked pretty long hours. They were expected to work 14 hours a day. That's a long day. That's a very long day. Now, they would get one half day off per week. One half day. Yep, one half day. Take your one half day now. Is that half day, what, seven hours? They get seven hours off? Yeah, I don't know. But a half day. enjoy your half day. I keep thinking we should get three days off a week. Well, this was back when I had a real job.

Yeah. You want to do that short week? I always thought we should work four days. Yeah. Work your ass off and then take three days off. That'd be nice. I think we work too much in this country as it is. Well, of course we do.

We work a lot. We're workaholics. But this wasn't out of the ordinary. I mean, back during this time frame, it was said that this was fairly standard for servants, chambermaids, people like that that worked in the households. Yeah. Essentially six and a half days a week, 14 hours a day, but that is a lot of hours. I think back then, you were at the beck and call of your employer.

If they wanted you to do something, you said yes. You know, I think that's just, even if it was probably outside of your scheduled time of that day, I don't think to me people said, no, sir, I'm on my, my rest time, I think that they probably went ahead and did whatever the owner needed. Now, to be fair, I think there's a lot of people that do that today. They have jobs where, yeah, they have set hours. But if they're asked to do something outside of those hours or stay late in the society we live in, it's almost expected that you would do that in a lot of positions. Sure, if you want to get ahead. Sure. Or if you want to keep your job nowadays.

your job that you have, yeah. But they were good workers. Yeah, they didn't cause any problems. They basically kept to themselves. Again, it was said that they were always quiet. You know, they didn't communicate verbally a lot. So again, a lot of the staff there wondered if they were telepathic. And they didn't have a whole lot of interests outside the mansion. You know, they went to church on Sundays. occasionally it was said that they would visit a local fortune teller. And it was at one of these visits that the fortune teller told the girls that they had been together in a past life as a man and a woman. Yeah.

Which would be strange to hear. Very strange that at one point you were a man and a woman together. Not just that you were a man and you were a woman. they were together. Together as lovers. Well, you know, and I said they didn't have, you know, too many interests outside the mansion, but they also didn't have a whole lot of time for interests outside the mansion. When you're working 14 hour days, you got to sleep sometime.

It doesn't leave a whole lot of extra time for. If you're only getting that half day to go do whatever you want on your own time, it's not going to be much. And that might have been church on Sundays. All right, Gibbs, let's take a break to talk about ZipRecruiter. You and I both know how hard it can be to hire the right person. It's very challenging. But there's one place you can go where hiring is simple, fast, and smart.

A place where growing businesses connect to qualified candidates. That place is ZipRecruiter.com slash T-Cat. ZipRecruiter sends your job to over 100 of the web's leading job boards. But they don't stop there. They have powerful matching technology that scans thousands of resumes. maze to find people with the right experience and then they go and invite them to apply to your job. ZipRecruiter analyzes each application that comes in and they spotlight for you the top candidate so you never miss a great match.

ZipRecruiter is so effective that 80% of employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate through the site within the first day. And right now our listeners can try ZipRecruiter for free at this exclusive web address, ZipRecruiter.com slash T-Cat. That's ziprecruiter.com slash T-C-C-C-C-A-T-T-C-Ruciter. The smartest way to hire. From everything you read, Gibbs, Renee and Leone, they were happy with the sisters for a good number of years. They were happy with their work.

But at one point, Leone found out that the girls were sending all their wages home to their mother. They weren't keeping any of it. She didn't like this. She got upset about it and she made them stop sending all the money home. Yeah. And I even read one article where at one point the sisters thought she was more of mom to them than their own mom. Well, I don't know that that was a big hurdle to cross because I don't think their mom was a very good mother. But she took it a step further.

Not only did she tell the girls to stop sending the money, she took it on herself to write their mother a letter, essentially saying, hey, your gravy train is over. You're not going to be getting all of this money anymore. I've told your daughters to keep it for themselves. Yeah, that'd be a pretty big blow to the mom, you know. She was probably used to this income at that point. But the family loved these sisters so much that they gave them a premium room that had a balcony that overlooked the city. And that was a rarity back then that they actually had their own private room with a balcony that looked out over the city. It was unheard of. But that's how much does family love these girls? Yeah, they got a premium room, but just one, right? The sisters had to

share a room, but it was still a big deal, like you said. It would be nice. You know, you can look out over the city when you're not working your 14 hours. Yeah. In the 37 minutes. that you have before you have to go to bed. Yeah, exactly. And again, the years ticked by. Everything seemed to go smoothly. The girls worked hard. The family was happy with them. But then things started to change. It was as if the sisters started to get complacent. Yeah. At least in the eyes of Leonie. Yeah, she kind of thought that they weren't as productive as they could or should have been. or were, right? Because at one point, they were probably very diligent in their work. She could see it drop off. They weren't picking up things the way that they should have. And I think it just

frustrated at Leonie. I think it did because she started criticizing their work. She started getting on them pretty good. Yeah. And not just verbally. It was said that she started pinching. Yeah, she would pinch Leah's arm and hold on to it. it and make her go down on the floor and pick up whatever she missed and hold on and keep pinching her until she came back up again. And so this pinching her arm and making her do this was more of a routine, I think, at that point for Leone, trying to teach her some discipline. Well, Leia wasn't happy with it. That's for sure. She later told Christine that the next time Leonie pinched her, she was going to defend herself. And things would come to a head on February 2nd,

1933. So you have to figure, the girls have been working at the Lancelan Mansion for about seven years, roughly. Good period of time. It is. For much of that time, things were really good. Now they're not. On that day, February 2nd, Leone and her daughter, Genevieve, they went out shopping for the day about town. René was set to meet them later on at a friend's house after he left a meeting that he had that day, but his wife and daughter didn't show on time. And when they didn't, he started to get concerned. Eventually, Renee went out to look for them, couldn't find them in town. So he eventually headed back to the mansion to see if maybe they were there. Renée got back to the mansion around 630. And as he approached the mansion, he noticed that all the lights were off. The only light that he saw was

a candlelight coming from the servants chamber on the third floor. And that's pretty rare. I mean, the lights, this typically, this mansion had all the lights on. So I think he was a little bit alarmed when he saw this. René tried all the doors, but they were locked, which wasn't typical. And his key didn't work. So at that point, he decided to go to the police station. and get assistance. So I'm picturing this guy, Gibbs. He already thinks something's not right. Because his wife and daughter didn't show up to the friend's house on time. He gets to his own mansion. Everything's not right. The place is dark. The doors are locked. For some reason, his key doesn't work. And he's thinking something's really wrong here. So he decided to go to the

police. This was around 7.30 p.m. Renee is able to get police to return with him to the mansion. The police go around to the back of the mansion. They climb over this big masonry wall fence. And I think they were being kind of stealthy. Gibbs, they didn't want whoever was in this house, an intruder. They don't really know what's going on, but they don't want to be seen. They want to, they want to keep that element of surprise.

They tried the doors. they two found them to be locked, except for one. One door was unlocked and it allowed them to get inside the house. But again, they really don't know what is going on inside. Police start to walk up the stairs and they see an eyeball laying on one of the steps. Yeah. You imagine as you're walking with your flashlight and you come across an eyeball staring back at you? They had to be shocked.

Oh, I've been shocked for sure. Big old eyeball staring back at you? Why was it big? Well, I was the same big, you know. I think it was a normal sized eyeball. It was. But, you know, as you're seeing it, I mean, it's going to appear. Well, that's true.

You never, most people have not seen an eyeball out of the socket. Yeah, it's bigger than you think it is. Have you seen a lot of eyeballs out of socket? I have. That's scaring me. I actually had a buddy that had a glass eye. He would pop it out for fun when we go drinking. Get some attention.

I would think you'd get some attention. Yeah. Not the type of attention you would hope to get, but it's got attention. But I do think the police were shocked. I mean, again, like I said, they didn't know what was inside. They probably thought someone was ransacking the house. They never imagined that they were going to find a horrific scene. And it started with this eyeball.

Exactly what happened. Then as they got to the top of the landing, they found Leon. Tony and Genevieve, they were laying their dead. Yeah, it's not good. And the scene that is described is so horrific. I mean, this mother and daughter were stabbed many times. They were sliced. Their eyes were gouged out.

Their faces were beaten, smashed with some type of instrument. And it was described that they were beaten to a pulp. You hear that. You've heard that term. Oh, yeah. But they were unrecognizable. That's how badly they were beaten. Their buttocks and the back of their legs had multiple slices.

This was a huge bloody mess. I mean, there was blood everywhere. Well, it would be described later by a French psychiatrist as an orgy of blood. That's pretty descriptive. Pretty descriptive, yeah, it's bad. But it goes back to the beginning when we said this is one of the most heinous crimes in French criminal history. But the police couldn't stop there.

They knew there were other people living in the house. There were other servants. The police went from room to room, clearing out the mansion until they eventually got to the last room, located near the laundry room on the third floor. But the door was locked to the servant's room. Police ended up getting in by breaking the lock. popping open the door. And what they saw was the sisters lying in bed together wearing only their bathrobes.

And next to them on a nightstand, police see a hammer. It has blood on it. It has brain matter. Yeah. Still attached to it. So they know right away. And they asked the sisters, why'd you do it? Why did you kill this mom and daughter?

and the sisters told police that Leone and Genevieve tried to beat them because the ironing wasn't done and the sisters weren't going to have it. They're not going to beat me for not having the ironing done. Where show you? They said that they decided they'd had enough and they were going to take care of this mother and daughter.

So they confessed to the murders. But it was said Gibbs that they didn't have an ounce of remorse. first off, I think because they felt like it was self-defense. They were defending themselves from what they thought was going to be a beating. Yeah. Based on maybe prior experiences. Sure. They were not going to be treated that way any longer.

Leah said that the reason why the mansion was so dark was that the iron was faulty. And when they plugged it in, it shorted out. the electricity in the mansion. Yeah, and that's, you know, interesting that you say that because I read an article. Again, it was, you know, the fact that you could find some of these articles back in the 1930s, right? Yeah, it's really amazing. But one of the articles said that this iron has been to, you know, back and from the same shop being repaired a couple times. And that it did have a history of faulty wiring.

So it wasn't surprised that it actually did blow the circuits in the house. But it's kind of funny to hear you talk about the fact that you would send an iron into be repaired. Yeah. And you think of an iron today is what, 20 bucks? You pitch it in the trash. $25, a basic item. Go get you a new one. You couldn't find somebody to repair an iron, could you nowadays?

I don't know. Just go to Walmart or Target or wherever. I just buy wrinkle-free stuff. Yeah, me too. So the iron shorted out the electricity. when Leone and Genevieve returned home that evening from shopping, Christine met them at the door. Leone was instantly upset. This is the story told by Christine and Leia because, number one, the lights were out and number two, the ironing was not done.

And remember they were supposed to be going out to dinner with Renee later that evening. So I'm guessing whatever they wanted to wear was not going to be ready since it was. was an iron. Christine told police that once Leonie put her hand on her, that was it. She went straight for her eyes with her fingers and gouged them out. That's tough, man. That's a, that's a tough thing to do to dig in behind that eye and pull that thing out. Are you kidding me? What's a tough thing to do, I can only imagine it's a very tough thing to have done to you. Oh. The pain that that must cause.

But that wasn't it. You know, Christine is doing this to Leone. At the same time, she's telling Leah to do the same thing to Genevieve. Yeah. And Leia does. So both of these women, mother and daughter, they've had their eyes gouged out. They're down on their knees. They're bleeding.

They're screaming and moaning in pain. That had to be awful. It's like a scene out of a horror. movie. But they weren't done. Christine went downstairs, retrieved a knife and a hammer. And she gave the knife to Leah. And this is how they described what happened. They used the hammer to beat in the faces of the mother and daughter. And they used the knife to stab and slice them. They switched the weapons back and forth with each other as well. So one would have the hammer, the other the knife, and then they would rotate.

I mean, that's gruesome without switching, but the purposely say, okay, let me have the hammer, my turn, here's the knife, your turn. That's cold-blooded, man. But at one point, they even grabbed a pewter pot and used that to smash both women's faces.

Yeah, and remember, this is all in the name of self-defense. I don't know at what point you still felt you needed to defend. offend yourself when they couldn't see anymore or after the stabbing's or the hammer to the face. But go ahead and throw the pewter pot on top of them as well. Yeah, I think you're right. At a certain point, you cross the line from self-defense to just plain cold-blooded murder.

Yeah. And a very vicious murder at that. Oh, yeah. It's a different scenario, but I go back to the episode we did with the, the, shooting where the guy shot the two teenagers coming into their house. We kind of touched on it there. Yeah. Right.

Maybe in the beginning it was self-defense. But when you stand over somebody and you shoot them four, five, six times when they're down, gone too far. You've definitely crossed the line. This line, they can't even see the line anymore. No, no. So at this point, Leonie and her daughter are face down now. and the sisters lift their skirts,

they take the knife and they slice the back of their legs and up through their buttocks. And then after they do that, they go to the daughter and take her menstrual blood and they smear it all over both of them. And they reference it as if they were marinating like a rabbit to cook. I don't know Giz, maybe we should have done a food alert on this one,

It's pretty gruesome. That's gruesome. That's a pretty rough way to go. But after all this, the sisters cleaned themselves up, got in their bathrobes, and they got ready for bed. It was a long day. As you would do after you have savagely beaten, cut, sliced, gouged, gouged, a mother and daughter, it's time for bed. Those 14 hours are a killer, man. So the police gathered up the murder.

weapons as evidence. We talked about it, the kitchen knife, the hammer that still had the blood and brain matter on it, the pewter pot. Obviously, the sisters were arrested. They received a court appointed attorney who pleaded insanity on the sisters behalf. Not a bad plea. I think if you looked at the scene, you would think somebody had to be. How could a sane person do that? Do all that. But we know they do all the time. But again, this. This is the early 1930s. Yeah. They were put in separate prisons.

And I think Gibbs, this caused the sisters a lot of distress. Especially Christine, the oldest one, because she really took to Leah. Prior to their trial, the sisters were allowed to see each other. And there were people that observed their interactions that felt there was something going on. Yeah. Maybe this, you know, psychic that they saw about. them being man and woman at one point wasn't too far off. Well, because what these people said was that their actions toward each other looked as

though they were in some type of sexual relationship. And this was a big deal in the 1930s. And not just the fact that they were sisters. Homosexuality back then was viewed as a mental illness. Yeah. So you have two sisters pleading. insanity exhibiting behavior that some thought, many thought, let's just be honest, was associated with mental illness. Yeah, exactly what they thought back then. But the sister thing was a big deal,

too. As Christine is in prison awaiting trial, she lost it. Well, she's not with her sister. She's by herself, and you're right. She loses it. She tried to gouge out her own eyeballs. Now, The staff was able to restrain her. They put her in a straight jacket. But after this happened, Christine started saying that what happened to her at that point in prison was the same thing that happened that night at the mansion. She felt the same way as if she, and I'm using the word lost it. I don't know what else to call it. Like a rage came over.

But what she's trying to do is tell officials that her actually. at night were a result of her mental illness. Remember, she's pleading insanity. And again, Gibbs, referencing these newspaper articles back during the time period, it's such valuable information to have because when you read some of these, you get a sense of what a lot of people were thinking. And it was that this crime had to do with class, right? Rich versus poor. There were a lot of people that felt sorry for the sisters. There were a lot of influential people that came out in support of them during this time.

So one thing that's interesting about the sisters, number one, they never turned on each other. But number two, they both claimed sole responsibility for the murders. So Christine said that she did it all. Leia said that she did it all. But I don't want to forget about the victims here. Mom and daughter were buried, had their funeral at the same time. Leone was carried in a black carriage pulled by a black horse. Her daughter, Genevieve, was carried by a white carriage pulled by a white horse.

And the streets were lined with thousands of people that day. So this was a very popular, influential family for that many people to come out and pay their respects. The trial for the two sisters happened in September 1933. It was decided that Christine was the mastermind behind the murders and that the true cause of the murders was a feud between her and Leone. the court concluded that Leah, the younger of the two, was completely consumed by her sister. To the point gives that they said that Leah's personality was really nothing more than an extension of Christine's. Well, probably from the amount of time they spent together. Maybe the things that they had gone through as children. I do go back to that.

Yeah. So their insanity pleas didn't work. But there was a history of mental illness in their family. They had a cousin who died in a sane asylum. Obviously, they had the bad childhood, the very violent father figure. They also had a grandfather who was prone to violent fits of rage. And they had an uncle who took his own life. So again, there was a history of suicide, violence,

some mental illness. The court took all of that into consideration. But the prosecution had three medical experts that examined the sisters. And they found the sisters to be sane and cold blood at killers. And I think it was these three experts that really swayed the jury. So they were found guilty. Christine was sentenced to death by guillotine. Maybe you don't hear that anymore.

In the public square. Come all, come everybody. Yeah. Bring your children. They want people to come and watch. And this shocked a lot of people because no woman had been guillotined in France since 1887. That's a big deal. That's 50 years since a woman had died by guillotine.

But that's what they sentenced Christine to. Leah received a much lighter sentence. Yes, she definitely came out better than her sister. She got to keep her head. I think they looked at her as more of the sidekick accomplice. Yeah. Like we mentioned, they deemed Christine as the mastermind. Leia received only 10 years hard labor.

But it was hard labor. Back then, that really meant hard labor. Oh, hard labor. Sure. It's not the three squares and cable TV that some get today. Yeah, dental care and get your masters while you're in there. During their time in prison, They were kept apart, right?

In different prisons. Christine's mental health deteriorated rapidly. And I think this had a lot to do with it. Her not being with her sister from everything you read really seems to have had an amazing effect on her in a bad way. She begged prison officials to be able to see her sister. She would not eat anything and go on hunger strikes. And she would try to gouge her eyes out again. She apparently really had this thing for trying to gouge her eyes out.

And she really wanted to see her sister. Yeah. And eventually the warden gave in and allowed the two to see each other. But the visit was strange. Apparently, Christine made sexual advances toward Leah, tried to unbutton or rip open her blouse. And I guess she kept asking Leah, Christine did, to say yes. Please say yes.

But we could never figure out what she was supposed to say yes to. To participate in whatever she wanted to happen right then? Sexually. I don't know. It was such a strange encounter, though. On January 2nd, 1934, French president, Albert Liebram, could be Labrum, Gibbs. And I have a tour in Labrum, so. So it's like you got a torn president there?

Yeah. There you go. I have a torn French president. There you go. He issued a stay of execution for Christine. She was resentenced and given life with hard labor instead of the guillotine. But she only stayed in prison a couple of years after that. And then she was transferred to an insane asylum.

She was extremely depressed. She wouldn't eat. She had what was described as fits of madness. You know, she just couldn't deal with being away from her sister. She never adjusted to that. Well, and I think we said it earlier. It was like they were of one personality, almost like they were the same person. Christine slowly wasted away.

And she died on May 18th, 1937. She was only 32 years old. She died Gibbs before her sister even got out of prison. for her shorter term. Yep. She got out in 1941 for good behavior. She only served eight of the 10 years. After she got out, she moved in with her mother of all people.

And apparently she was able to get a job in a hotel. Now, she did so using a fake identity. Right. It was believed that Leah died in 1982. But there was some questions about her death in 2000. because a documentary filmmaker came forward and said that she was alive. So he made a film and it was called In Search of the Puppins sisters. And there's a woman in the film somewhat paralyzed due to a stroke.

And the filmmaker claimed that it was her. The stroke also left her speechless. So it just added to the mystery. Yeah, for sure. because she wasn't able to voice who she really was. And at first, for me, Gibbs, it was kind of strange to think, okay, they can't figure out if this is really her in this movie. But you have to think she did get a fake identity,

apparently after she got out of prison. So I think that added to the complexity of it. But I really don't know. And maybe it's out there and we couldn't find it. But we looked and couldn't figure it out. I just thought it was something interesting to put in. Now, the French would later say the sister suffered from a condition known as folia d'u. And I don't speak French and I don't do good French accents.

I'm probably, I'm probably butchering that. Yeah. But it basically means madness and pairs. You might also see it called shared paranoid disorder. It happens with small groups, pairs of people who become isolated from society and have a paranoid view of the outside. side world. One thing that's typical with this is that one of the partners dominates the other. Which would have been Christine over Leah. Yeah. So I think that's why they are calling this like a textbook case. Yeah. I think it fits. Fits very well. But that's it. That's it for the

story of the poppin sisters. Grusome. Brutal. Yeah. For two, what were two fairly, young women to commit those kind of violent acts. The rage, to pull out somebody's eyeballs, just to rip them out. That's the part that really got me. That's where you got me too, right there. You knew it was bad when someone took their own fingers and dug it in behind and pulled those eyeballs straight out. Whew.

Not an easy task. Now, my wife's got really sharp fingernails, too. Really? Yeah. She can dig in there and get them. I got to watch my mouth around her. Yeah. She might do a quick Stephen Seagal.

Just pull it out with one finger. Actually, it would be like, what was that movie? Kill Bill. Did you ever see Kill Bill? Oh, yeah, that was good. If she was quick enough, she could snatch. The tiger? Yeah.

Didn't she snatch somebody's eyeball right out? I think so. Yeah. Real fast. Yeah. To have that skill level. All right, we got some voicemails. Let's hear.

Hi, Mike and Mike. My name is Lindsay, and I'm a listener originally from Wisconsin. I just want to speak up in defense of public defenders. in your last episode you were saying, maybe you don't want them to defend you on a capital case, but they are exactly the person you want defending you on a capital case. Most of the public defenders that I worked with

were really educated, very experienced. The only thing they do every day is help people in court. They don't handle any other cases like you might have with an outside private defense attorney. So although they have the stereotype of being overworked and underpaid, They only the people who in some ways have the most experience dealing with judges, dealing with prosecutors, day in and day out. So I just want to speak up in defense of them because not all of them are complete roots. Thanks, guys.

Love your show and keep your own time ticking. Yeah, thanks for that voicemail. And definitely didn't want anybody to think we were putting down public defenders. No, no, not at all. But I'll ask this question, Gibbs. Yeah. Why do people with money hire very expensive, high-power, high-power, attorneys. Well, there's a reason why. Well, I think that's because they're going with the experience

and the educational background that their money's going to buy. Nothing against public defenders at all. And I think I said that in the episode. But if I've got $100 million and my life is on the line, I'm calling Mark Garrigus. And also would say this. I think most public defenders are overworked. Their caseloads very heavy. And if I'm up for murder, I probably won't want to make sure that whoever is representing me has the time, the resources. That's the other thing, too. A lot of these higher-in attorneys have some really good resources. Well, because you're paying for that. Yeah. Your money is paying for the specialist to come in and, you know, debunk anything that the prosecution has. Hi, Mike. Hi, hi, Gibby. This is Lottie. Listen, Mike, I'm calling

because the reliable source has told me that maybe you've tried the Vegemite, so I just wanted to ask, how was it? Anyway, love the show. Love you guys. Take care. Bye. Oh, that's Lottie from Denmark. We love Lottie. He's eating it right now. I'm not eating it right now. It's all over his face. Just listen to her and how well she speaks English. I continue to be amazed at people from other countries where English is not their first language. Lottie's got it going on. They speak it so fluently. And then you have me. Who lives here? Well, you're very good with Italian.

That's right. So the Vegemite. Yeah. I did not try it. I just never could get past the smell. I tried to do it a couple of times, but every time the smell hit me, I put the cat back on. It had like a brownish black color to it. Oh, yeah.

The look was a little funky too, but it was real earthy. Let's put it that way. Yeah. Well, at least you smelled it. I did smell it. Yeah. That's a start. Hi, this is Renee. I'm from Binghamton, New York, and I've started listening to your podcast a few months ago.

I'm on episode 51. I'm trying to catch up, and you guys are cracking me up about the husky pants. Oh, my God. All right. Just want to say thank you, and keep your own time a chicken. The Husky jeans. It's funny. She says that someone just posted a picture last week. They were going, I think at their moms or something and they were going through their old clothes and they posted a picture of some husky pants. Some husky jeans. Yeah. So some of the jokes and some of the things we talked about don't make as much sense today. You are a lot less huskier than you were when episode 51 came out. That's true. I am the same level of huskiness. Yeah. But you not so much. People change. People change,

man. I'm working on it. Yeah, you are. Hi, Mike and Gibby. My name is Lisa. I'm calling from Michigan. I have a case suggestion. I'm hoping you will consider covering. It is the Tara Lynn Grant case. It was in Washington Township, Michigan. In February of 2007, I just finished reading the book Blood in the Snow by Tom Henderson, which covers that case. I don't want to say too much about it because I hope you guys will cover it.

I think your listeners would enjoy hearing it. I really enjoy your podcast. It's awesome. My son told me about it, and I started listening. first episode, and I binge listened all the way through T-Cat and T-Cat Unsolved, and I'm current, and I really enjoy it. So I'm glad he told me about it. Also, I have a friend who I told about the podcast. We have something we'd like to ask you to do for us.

Me and her are both visually impaired, and we cannot see your T-Cat logo on your merchandise, so we were wondering if one of you would describe what it looks like for Lisa and Dawn. That would be very much appreciated. And I'm really enjoying the Facebook T-Cat chat group as well. And your podcast, like I said, is awesome. It is my favorite podcast. You guys keep doing what you do. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.

All right. Love that. Appreciate it. Appreciate your son that turns on to the podcast. That's awesome. So I will try to explain it. The background's mostly black. And then within that black background,

there are gears, silver gears that look like the inner workings of a clock. So playing on the all the time. Right. And then true crime is in the middle, a little bit bigger in red. Yep. And then underneath and white it says all the time. There's also what appears to be some blood on the gears and inner workings of the clock. Pretty cool.

Pretty cool. Yeah, I like it. So I do. I hope that helps. Your new next tattoo. Hi, guys. First of all, I love y'all. I'm Brandy Katowski from Charleston, South Carolina.

And I just had to call you guys out on just one thing. How can you guys not know as much about Rick Moranus? I'm 43. Y'all are of my generation, right? Strange Brew, guys. The movie Strange Brew. Hey, you hooser. Gotta take a leak, eh?

Spaceballs, guys. Rick Moranis was around for a while. Great guy. Funny. Come on, get with it. Anyway, love what you guys do. I am caught up on everything. I need more.

I need more. I love you. Bye. So Gibbs, anytime somebody starts off with, first of all, I have to say I love you. We know it's coming. I know something else is coming. But look, this is what happens. This is what you get me into.

And I love space balls. You were the one that didn't know who Rick Moranis was. I love space balls, man. I knew who he was, but see, I get lumped in with you. Oh, sure. Blame it on me. It's always my fault. Golly.

It's a blame it on a gibby. He just doesn't know what he's talking about. No, we love it. We love it. All right, we got mailbag. And we got big, big time mailbag. Yeah, you did. So Stephen and Cheryl Reed sent us some homemade soap.

Awesome. Which is really cool, by the way. Yeah. And for me, some amazing Harley-Davidson challenge coins. Oh. These are not the poker chips. These are the, they're bigger. They're metal.

Oh, okay. Yeah, they're really cool. They're like commemorative coin looking things. Yeah. And then we got two kingcakes in the mail. Yeah. For Mardi Gras shipped to us overnight from Louisiana, straight from New Orleans. So Andrea Schmidt sent one that was half pecan cream.

cheese and half raspberry cream cheese. Awesome. Thank you. Awesome. Roxanne Jolette sent us one that was plain cream cheese icing inside and then it had green, purple, and yellow slash gold icing on the top. Awesome. We tried them both after dinner and they were amazing. I love King Cake. And my youngest daughter, she was over the moon. Number one, she loves Kingcake. And then, too, she loves New Orleans. That's like her favorite place. And she liked hiding in the babies. She did. That was her job to hide the babies up underneath. Yeah. That's the only time that you get points for eating a baby. That's it. You're not supposed to eat it. It's a plastic baby. Oh, well, then I made a mistake. It would be bad for you to eat that.

Well, I ate it. So now what? Okay. If you find it, it's good luck. If you eat it, it's a trip to the emergency room. Well, we know where I'm going later. All right, everyone. We appreciate it. We appreciate appreciate everything. We appreciate you listening. That is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.