True Crime All The Time - The Rafay Family Murders Part 1

Episode Date: August 27, 2018

In the early morning hours of June 13, 1994, most of the members of the Rafay family were found murdered in their home. They were found by their son, Atif Rafay, and his friend, Sebastian Burns, who had been out on the town.Join Mike and Gibby for part 1 of 2 of this murder mystery. Who would want to murder what appeared to be a professional, and loving family? Police would begin to focus their attention on Atif and Sebastian. But, the US would engage in years of discussion with Canada in an attempt to get the two men brought back to face justice.You can help support the show by going to patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at www.truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

and welcome to episode 93 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson, Gibby, what is going on? What's happening, man? Well, we're both a little under the weather. We are. Yeah. Throats are a little scratchy and so we're going to fight our way through this one.

We need some TLC. Not from each other. Not from each other. But does TLC? In general. In general. Are you sipping some green tea? Uh, no, water.

Is it really water? Is it vodka? Because it's clear and it could be either one. It could be either one. So we will find out by the end of this episode. I know people do want us to do a, uh, drunk episode. A drunk history type true crime. Yeah. We could do it, maybe. You're not a big drinker. I'm not a huge drinker, no. But I can go Frank the Tank if I have to for, for the podcast. I'm just not sure if they will notice any difference from you. But you don't think? I don't know if they will.

I've had people ask me if you're drunk to begin with. I know. I get that. He drinks before it, right? It seems like he does. That's just Gibby. All right, Gibbs. We have some new Patreon supporter shoutouts to give.

We had Casey Pritchard. Hey, thank you. Chris McGarry. McGarry. Deanna Foster jumped out at the highest level. Ricky Turner. Ricky Bobby. Ricky Bobby Turner.

Yeah. Chris Pollard. Hey, thank you. Jamie Perrault. Hey, want Ross Perrault. Boy, if she is, she's rich. You can kick it up another notch.

Ross Perot is, is he still a lot? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. But if he is, he's wealthy. Yeah. Amy La Fuente.

Funete. What is? La Fuente. La Fuentes. That was not close. Nowhere near that ballpark. Well, you had, you had definitely a couple of extra vows in there somewhere.

And an S on the end that I never said. Was it a hard S? I think it was. Yeah, there you go. Sometimes they're there when you don't see him. Timothy D. Martino. Thank you. Jennifer Sumner.

Thank you, Jennifer. Heather Harrison. Thank you. Daniel Winslow. Thank you. DeSira Alvarez. DeCira. Yep.

Yeah. Alexandra Barger. Anne Lund. Teresa Petway. Petway, that's a interesting last name. Yeah, Petway. Yeah. Cindy Kulas.

Jeffrey Haas. Kelsey Nugent. Ted's, uh, may or may not be related to Ted. We don't know. Amy Armendaris Giblin. Armadillin. Giblit. That's what I heard.

You heard Armandillo Ghiblet? Yeah. Yeah. That's not what it was, but I like it when you tell the audience what you actually hear. Yeah. I just want them to know. How your brain processes the information. Right.

We had Paige. Hey, Paige. Turn it. Glenda Piper. You didn't laugh about that one. No, I know. You went all Bob Seeger on me. Samantha.

Hey, Samantha. Josie Dean. Hey, Josie Dean. Wanda Linnell Richland. Ooh, Richland. Greg Staten. Hey, Greg. Samantha Knight.

She's like, good night. More like you get knighted. Oh, yeah. Oh, okay, like from England? Yeah. Okay. And then Maria sing. Ah, Marita, thank you.

Nothing like Maria. Isn't that the song? No. There's something about Maria. There's something about Mary. Something about Mary. I thought there was a song, something about Maria. I just can't think of how it goes.

I don't think it's even one of those. Was it in the movie, these hills are alive with cotton or whatever it is? With cotton, with the sound of music. Yeah, that's it. Is that the Maria song? Or is her name Maria, the one that sings? I think that song's in that movie. I think you're right.

I think it is, too. Or is it in the one where, you know, Natalie Wood plays Maria. I don't know. The Jets versus the... That's West Side Story. It could be in that movie, too. I don't know. All right.

I don't know how many movies I'm going to have to guide you through here. There's a lot. I can't believe you said these hills are alive with the sound of cotton. Did I say sound of cotton? I don't know if you said sound. I said, these hills are alive with cotton. With cotton. That doesn't make it any better.

No. I mean, there's things I say. I wish I could take back, but I know you won't edit them out. You'll leave them in. So I just have to get used to that it's going out. And people will be like, what? Is he smoking? And he doesn't smoke anything.

He doesn't. All right. Gibbs, let's go back in the way back vault machine. Let's do way back. This week we selected 13 Fox Trot, Tango Alpha Bravo. That's a big 10 for a good buddy. Yep. Bricker one-niner.

So we appreciate the long-time support. We appreciate the new supporters and everybody that continues to support us month after month. It really makes a big difference. We also had a lot of PayPal support. We had Ashley Chesser, Barbara Fullop, Kathy Leamos, Amanda McMullen, and our good friend Allison Thompson. Wow. Thank you, everybody. Allison, thank you so much.

Made a great donation as well. Now, talking about Patreon Gibbs, you and I just got done recording our second Patreon episode that's already out right now, came out on Saturday. And it's a good one. It's on Carla Faye Tucker. Crazy. Just an unbelievable crime. And then you have everything that comes after it, you know, with her death sentence and her transformation and people on both sides of the aisle, pro death penalty, anti-death penalty, but some people that are just not wanting her to die. I think it's a fascinating case. But are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time?

We are talking about the Raffay family murders. Now, you also see this one called the True East murders. The Raffay family had just moved to Bellevue, Washington from Vancouver, Canada. Tarek Raffay was a structural engineer, and the guy had engineered a lot of buildings around the world. His wife, Sultana, had a doctorate in nutrition, and she devoted her life to raising their gifted son and their autistic daughter. This is a family that had it going on. As far as educated, I'm sure they were making good money. They were doing well for themselves.

But it was on July 13, 1994, that their son, Atie for Faye and his friend Sebastian Burns, came home to a shocking scene. They found Atif's parents had been brutally beaten and murdered. Atif first saw his mom, Sultana, lying on the floor. Then they would both see the dad, Tariq Raffay. It appeared as if he had been hit maybe as many as 50 times. And then they heard moaning in Atif's sister's bedroom. And this was Basma, Atif's older sister's.

She was autistic. She was moaning and barely alive. And Bosma would die hours later in the hospital, but she was never able to identify her killer to the police. The weapon used in these attacks would later be determined to be a baseball bat. I mean, that's brutal. I mean, to be beaten by a baseball bat, how brutal. And I can't imagine being on the other side of it, the one that's swinging it, 50 times.

How angry do you have to be at somebody to hit them again and again with a baseball bat 50 times? Well, you and I talk about that in a lot of cases, right? Whether it's knife, whether it's a bat, you know, whether it's a gun, shooting somebody X number of times, stabbing them 30, 40, 50 times. Hitting somebody with a baseball bat 50 times, it's hard to imagine, but it also shows a tremendous amount of rage, like you said. does. At least that's what police always jumped to, right? That's what they think of. That type of violence means rage. And rage usually means some connection between the killer and the victim. So Sebastian Burns made the 911 call and reported the crime. A police investigator later would say the following. Just looking at that room, you start realizing this looks like someone set it up.

Boxes were tipped over, drawers were opened, but nothing appeared to have been gone through. So knowing that they're in a pretty well-to-do neighborhood, you know, I mean, clearly they're professionals or the parents are making some good money. So if you think someone would break in, I mean, they would, you think they'd take some stuff, you know, not just kind of rancet and make it look like they'd actually would have some things missing and just not the two items that the young men will talk about being missing. You would see some high dollar items gone. Well, police in most cases, they're pretty smart, Gibbs. They've seen examples of things like this before. A lot of times they can tell when it's a real burglary or it's somebody that's trying to

make you think that a burglar came in. And it's the difference between, you know, just opening drawers, throwing a couple of things out onto the ground versus a lot of expensive things being cleaned out of your house. There's a big difference between the two. And piggybacking off of what you were talking about, Gibbs, the police would ask a teeth that night, what if anything was missing from the house? and he would say his disc man and a VCR. I don't forget, this is 1994.

Yeah, so the good old disc man, do you have one? Or did you have the Walkman? I was trying to think of what the Discman was. That's when the first disc came out. It just played... Instead of, like, the Walkman, it played the Conset. This is Sonny, the Sony, not Sunny. The Sony Discman would play just disc.

When you say discs, are you talking about a CD? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I had a portable CD player. one that fit on your side when you used to go out jogging that you never did?

Yeah, or yogging. Or yogging? Yeah, I'm sure I had one. If it was technology, I was into, I've always been in technology. Were you into break dancing? I was not.

I was never coordinated. If I was more coordinated, I probably would have been into break dancing. That's the reason I thought you would have been like a break dancer. No, I do like,

breaking or breaking and breaking to electric bugaloo. I don't know what breaking is. Oh, you don't know. know those movies back in the like the 80s breaking one breaking two breaking two electric bugaloo uh i don't remember them oh you got to watch that man i know like the new you know the newer stuff the dance movies like from the last 10 years oh i don't watch the new stuff you got to go old

school dance yeah so like i said it's 1994 and he's saying disc men and vCR but like you said gibbs this is a pretty well not wealthy but it's a well-to-do fan They have money. Right. You know there's going to be more in that house than a portable CD player and a VCR. And surely nobody came to that house and brutally murdered three people for a freaking walkman and a VCR, right? Right.

And don't call me surely. But yes, I absolutely agree with you. Right. And just like us, investigators thought this was strange. They're asking the same type of question. Why would someone brutally murder three people over two small electronic items? So let's talk a little bit about Sebastian Burns. He was Ateef's best friend.

Just like Ateef, he was a very smart young man. Both of these individuals were smart, intelligent. He came from a loving, happy family. The family was originally from England. And his sister was a TV news reporter, Tiffany Burns. Sebastian became a member of the Royal Canadian Air Cadets and was given an award by Prince Edward. Pretty prestigious. Yeah.

So top that off by the fact that both Sebastian and Atif attended Cornell University. That's Ivy League. Not easy to get into. So it tells you what kind of intelligence these two kids had. the police would look into these two young men who first came across the crime scene, made the 911 call. They were taken to the police station for questioning and testing. They were examined for traces of blood, but they didn't find any. So after that, the police asked for them to help make a timeline of the events of that day.

The boys were able to respond in detail. They said at 8.30 p.m. They drove to a restaurant for a bite to eat. Then they went to a 9.50 p.m. showing of the Lion King. So again, shows you how old this case is. Actually, I didn't realize the Lion King was that flipping old. 94? Lion King is 24 years old.

You want to do it, don't you? You want to... If my throat wasn't hurting, I would belt it. Yeah. The first part. Yeah, I see it in your eyes there. You're thinking. Now, after the movie, they stopped for a bite to eat, and this is kind of a strange tidbit, but they left the waitress a $6 tip on a $9 tap.

And police would follow up on this. And when they talk to waitstaff, when they talk to staff at the movie theater, they would recall seeing the two boys. Now, one thing police thought was strange was that the boys were actually able to recall so much about. their activities that day. But apparently they couldn't recall much at all about the murder scene. The day after the murders, Ateef and Sebastian were spotted in a video store renting movies. And I think this is something the police thought maybe was a little strange.

It is the day after, you know, if you're a thief, your parents were brutally murdered and your sister, would you really be out renting movies? But back at the initial questioning, you know, the night of the murder, police asked Atif why he didn't help his dying sister that night. And he didn't have a response. It would be three days after the murder that the family and relatives of the Raffaes would bury the victims. But Atif was nowhere to be found.

And later, they would figure out that he was on a bus. at this time headed for Canada with Sebastian Burns. Now in Canada, in Vancouver, where they ended up, the young men could no longer be questioned by the Bellevue police. And of course, Gibbs, you can imagine what this look like to police, let alone family. With them crossing the border, it makes it look like they're trying to get away, trying to separate themselves, distance, themselves from police. Now, the boys were both Canadian citizens. They had dual citizenship.

And it would come out later that the Canadian consulate had even informed the Bellevue police that the boys were making a trip to Canada in advance. Now, we don't know who all knew at the police. I don't know if their friends and family knew, though. I think it was a huge shock to them, Gibbs. And even if the police knew, they still had to view it as very suspicious that three days after the murder, you're going to decide to take a trip to Canada, especially if you're a thief. You're not going to spend that with your family, your extended family that is there to bury your mom, dad, and sister?

You would think. I mean, I don't understand it. That's very strange. If you didn't want to look suspicious, you just did. Yeah. You know, if you're trying not to, you're going about it in the wrong way, at least in my thinking. Now, while the young men were in Canada, the Bellevue police kept their investigation going. They went through the house. They looked at, you know, every piece of evidence, every detail.

They couldn't find any evidence of forced entry. So that made the burglary aspect even more suspicious, right? if a burglar broke in, you would expect to see, what, Gibbs, primarks, a busted out window, a broken lock, something. They didn't find anything like that. Plus, when they sprayed luminal in the bathrooms, they got a big hit in one of the showers. So to their way of thinking, the killer or killers took a shower to rinse the blood off them prior to leaving the home. Forensics, man. You know, I'm fascinated by forensics. And you can

imagine back then. I don't remember when Lulminol came in, you know. Oh, a long time ago. Before the 90s. Oh, yeah. I think it's been around a lot. Well, obviously it was around in 94 because we just talked about it. Yeah, no, no. I mean, but I'm just trying to think. I think it's been around quite, you know, quite a while. I don't know how long. You talked about suspicion a little bit. Police are very suspicious of these two young men. The trip to Canada. They think, thought that they were very cocky in their interviews. They started to think that, you know, they had something to do with what happened that night.

And if they did, maybe they were the ones that took the showers prior to setting up their alibis and calling police. So police are digging into it. They're trying to determine what type of case they can build against the boys. another thing we haven't talked about, and we probably should have talked about it right up front at the time of the 911 call, but maybe not. I think it makes more sense here, Gibbs. Police begin to get suspicious about the time after the 911 call, because you hear it on the 911 call. Sebastian says, we'll be outside waiting on police. Now, would you do that not knowing if this killer that has just murdered essentially an entire family was still inside that house

and could bust out the front door and get you at any point in time. You'd be yelling at the screen in a movie. Don't do that. Don't do it. Don't do it. Turn around. Turn around. But I think this is another thing that to police is not adding up.

They also thought it was strange that Atif noticed only that his walkmen or didn't. disc men or whatever we're calling it, and his VCR were gone. Very specific. Sebastian's family, they were supporting the young men. They were concerned about them. So they made sure that they had a legal team. And it was on the advice of their attorney that both men decided to stop cooperating with Bellevue police. But that didn't stop police. If anything, probably made them even more suspicious. I don't know. They kept looking into it. As they were doing background searches on both Sebastian and Atif, they discovered that while in high school, Sebastian starred in a play that depicted two high school kids committing the perfect murder. And it just so happened that in this

play, the murder weapon was a baseball bat. Yeah, exactly. So that's, That's got a peak police interest. I would think it would. I mean, they have to be wondering, Gibbs, did these guys or did Sebastian or did he tell a T. or whatever, did they get the idea to do something to carry out, you know, these murders based on a play? Yeah. And we've heard this kind of scenario before in some other cases that we've done, you know,

so it's possible. I don't remember it ever being a play, but yeah, I mean, getting it, getting the, getting the idea from somewhere else, whether it's a movie or a book or something like that, definitely. So both young men are still in Vancouver. And they actually are taking up residence there. The men have money. Ateef had his inheritance.

Sebastian had money from his family. They purchased a convertible car. They asked a friend to move in with them. This friend's name was Jimmy Mioshi. He was a guy that. they knew from high school. So all three of these guys rented an apartment together. But back in Bellevue, police are not giving up. And they're making sure that the Royal Canadian mounted police are in the loop with what they're thinking. And at a certain point in time,

the young men, Sebastian and Atif, become well known in Canada as these famous murder suspects, I guess, for lack of a better word, it's known that they are being looked at. I don't know about famous. I don't know if famous is the right word, but you know what I'm saying, Giv. Yeah, some type of notoriety for sure.

Yeah, they had some type of notoriety, but they continue to do things that, to me, just don't make a whole lot of sense. They started to write a screenplay that was about two friends accused of murdering a family and they were going to call the play the Great Despisers. And it was said that they were hoping that this would take off and they would make a bunch of money from it. Now, on April 10th, 1995, we're almost a year after the murder.

Not quite, but coming up on a year after the murder, RCMP investigators intercepted a phone message confirming a salon appointment for Sebastian. When Sebastian left the salon, a guy approached him needing a ride to his hotel. So he gives him a ride and the two stop at a bar and have a drink. And apparently Sebastian got a little chatty and he started telling this stranger, a guy he didn't know at all about his screenplay in that he was needing to secure financing to get it made. This stranger told him that he had a guy that could help.

him out. So Sebastian agrees and eventually a meeting is set up for him to meet with this guy. Now, what Sebastian was not aware of was that this entire thing, this meeting, this guy, this stranger had been set up by the RCMP using undercover agents. They developed a very detailed plan and set about trying to carry it out. So essentially gives, it's like a, it was a sting operation. They were trying to set up this sting operation and draw Sebastian and hopefully eventually a teeth into it. So the finance guy that they set up to have Sebastian meet with, they made to have a mafia type cover. And so they set their first meeting up in a strip club. That makes sense. If you're going to if you're going to meet with the mafia, where else would you, you're either going to meet in a

deli. Yeah. Or in a strip club. Me back in the deli. What are the, you're going to eat a bunch of meats. Yeah. Cold cuts. Salami. Or you're going to the strip club. Or you go to the strip club and watch the girl around the pool. But you know what? What reminds me of? At what strip club do you go to where there's a pool. No matter, a pole. Oh, you said pole. Yeah, that you spent around on. I thought you said pool.

This is why you shouldn't do the accents. Is that probably right? Because I can't understand what you're saying. So it's kind of like a Sopranos episode. It sounds like me. I mean, really, you know? It really is. Big Tony and his leather jacket.

And if you go out and we'll get into, you know, the confession tapes and some other media that tell this story as well. Right. But you can see the real guy. and he looks like what you would think of, like a stereotypical mobster. Italian mafia guy. Yeah, they picked a guy that they thought

would portray that type of... I could do it. Stereotype. I could do the voice. You sound like Chef Bordi. Nobody's going to take you serious. I'd just be a friendly type of mafia man. You've watched a lot of mob movies, right?

Yeah. Good fellas. Yeah. Did they talk like that? Not really, no. Maybe in the in Godfather 2 when they go back to like the 30s or whenever it is. Yes. When they're at the outside the cafe.

But in the 70s, 80s, 90s, good fellows. They get a little harder. They don't talk like that. No, they don't not. And this type of sting operation would eventually be known in police circles as the Mr. Big set up. So the meeting occurs. And in the meeting, Mr. Big told Sebastian that he had the. cash to invest in their screenplay. But first, Sebastian had to earn his trust. And to do that,

he told Sebastian that he and his roommates, so that would be a Tief and Jimmy, would need to transport a stolen car and also help launder some money. Yeah, so they got paid like a few hundred bucks to do the stolen car. But I think it was more of, I need to see that you're willing to do something for me, that you're real, you're not setting me up. I think that's the mindset that Mr. Big was trying to put on to Sebastian is like, this guy, this guy's real. He's testing me. Yeah. And then they had to move, you know, some money, laundering, about just a little more than $100,000. So, I mean, for somebody that didn't know any better, I mean, you would think that was real. I mean, someone gives you a couple hundred thousand or $100,000 to move through some laundry facilities.

Please. If you give me $100,000, I'll think you're in the mob. Let's try it out. I promise you. I will forever think you're in the mob. I can get you $100. Would that work? No, then I'll just think you're cheap. Yeah. Well, you know, I am. But, you know, that means the whole premise behind all this is the, you know, give you a little task. Do you perform it? And now you're kind of locked in because you did an illegal activity for me. So now we have that a little bit of bond. And then I went a little bit. It's really smart. Yeah. It is really smart if you think about it. And this is why it is, it's used in quite a few sting operations. And you really are building some form of trust with that person too to maybe down the road get them to open up about things in their past. These activities would continue for a couple of months. And this Mr. Big and his associates would start to bond. Like you said, Gibbs, with the young men, they would start to form a trust.

Yeah, it kind of reminds me of that. movie with, man, it was a great cast. Jack Nicholson, Leo. Departed? Yeah, the departed. Yeah. That was a good one. Yeah, because you remember when Leo comes on, he has to get in with the gang first, you know?

So what does he do? He busts up some bad guys and then. Oh, was Leo the cop in that one? Leo, no, Leo, well, yeah, Leo was the good undercover cop. Oh, he was. Yeah, Matt Damon was the cop that was the bad one. Okay. It's been a while since I've got Marky Mark in it.

you know. And the orange crush. Yeah. Funky bunch. It was a good movie. I just haven't seen it in a while. Yeah. I could have been in that movie. You could have. I could use my Irish accent. Now Mr. Big would eventually ask Sebastian about the murders. And not only that, but he would tell Sebastian that he already knew what the truth was. So taking this full circle, Gibbs, talking about, you know, bonding, talking about building up a trust. it's really all leading to trying to get the two boys, the two men, whatever you want to say, to tell what happened.

Yeah. And in doing so, again, I think it's very smart. Mr. Big tells them, I want you to tell me what happened, but I already know the truth. Yeah. So don't lie to me. Just tell me, you know, keep their trust going. Initially, Sebastian told Mr. Big that he didn't have anything to do with it. But at the same time, Gibbs, he told him that if the police ever found something that could

implicate him, he would ask the mobsters for help in destroying that evidence, which again is a little strange to me. If you didn't have anything to do with it, what is it you're thinking that police are going to find to implicate you? Sebastian also goes on to say that he knows if and when he has proven innocent that this movie deal will make everyone millions of dollars. So I just want to take a step back for a minute, Gibbs, and think about what is going on. Sebastian and Atif are living in Canada. They've got money. Sebastian thinks he's talking to the mob about ready to make a huge score to make this movie

based off a screenplay that he and Atif have written. This is where we're at. This is some real pie in the sky type shit we're talking about. Yeah, absolutely it is. You know, I think he's living in somewhat of a fantasy world at this point. But he's buying into it. You know, the police are setting this trap, this sting, and he's buying into every piece of it. And police are going to play on this statement that Sebastian made about asking for their help

if police ever found anything. Because what they come back and do is they tell Sebastian, Mr. Big does, is that he has an informer who is saying that the police do have evidence. And they go a step further. They show Sebastian a bogus letter that ties him to the evidence. Now, Mr. Big says he can have the evidence destroyed, but they need Sebastian to tell them exactly,

what happened in that house the night of the murders. That's a good setup. It is. So the setup is good initially. And now they're just playing off of what Sebastian is saying. His biggest fear was evidence that would implicate him in the murder. So they're using his biggest fear against him. So we recorded the Patreon episode only just a few days ago. And that came out last night.

And I think in that you play. played a clip that the guy says somebody once told him something about out in the ocean don't be like a fish or you get hooked keep your mouth closed or you get hooked or you get hooked he said as soon as you open your mouth like a fish that's when you get hooked yeah and here's a prime example right because we know people like to talk people like to talk about what they did, right? Bad guys, they always like to tell somebody. They can't keep it quiet. They can't keep it to themselves. They always, you know, just like you talked about the Goodfellas, you know, remember they robbed that airport facility. And, you know, the next day, everybody's got a new,

their wife has a new mint coat, or they drive a brand new Cadillac, or they've got new jewelry, whipping out a lot of cash. And that's one thing that's why they started dying off, you know, because Jimmy and the other guy wanted everybody to be lay low so they didn't get caught, but nobody could lay low because everybody wanted to talk about what they did. They brag. Well, you and I've done a lot of cases, and how many cases would you say the person would not have been caught when they were, they might have been caught eventually, they would not have been caught when they were had they not opened their mouth.

Oh, absolutely. It's either that or they get so cocky and confident. and in their abilities that instead of doing what they did in the beginning, they bring it closer to home. They get more relaxed because they think they're untouchable. And sometimes they think they're smarter than the police. Yeah. All that stuff. On July 18th, 1995, so now we are up to about a year after the murders. Sebastian meets Mr. Big at a place called the Ocean Point Resort. Police have the whole place wired. Audio, video. They're recording everything. So on the tape, you can see Sebastian walks into the hotel room, kicks off his shoes, and sits down on a couch.

Mr. Biggs says, look, they have DNA putting you there at the scene with your hair and blood they got from the shower. Now, Sebastian tries to play this off by explaining that it has to be some type of mix-up, but even still Gibbs, he wants Mr. Biggs help to destroy the evidence. And Mr. Big says he will. He will destroy it as soon as Sebastian tells him everything that happened that night. And Sebastian does. He told Mr. Big what happened. So I don't have much, Gibbs. I have a little snippet.

Right. But that is Mr. Big and Sebastian. They're talking. And obviously there's much more to it. But you hear Mr. Big. Sebastian, when did you do the dirty deed? And Sebastian says when we were at the movies. Yeah. So the movie started at 950. That's their ticket, right? And there's confirmation that they went in at 950. But of course, nobody can recall when they left. So, I mean, they could

have went in, waited to the movie, got started, walked out, right? It's really not a bad alibi if you need an hour and a half. Yeah. I mean, it can place you some You keep the ticket stub. Yep. And like they did, everywhere they went that night, they made sure that people would remember them. Well, we specifically talked about leaving a $6 tip on a $9 bill that wasn't by accident. No. There was a reason for that.

They wanted to make sure that the waitress would remember them when police came to ask about them. Yeah. I mean, if you want a good alibi, you got to make sure people can recall you. Right. So you got to do something. If you leave $2, nobody's going to remember it. Right. If you leave a 60, 70% tip, a 100% tip, throw down a $100 bill. People are going to remember that. Sure. Now, the other thing that Mr. Big wants is for a teeth and Jimmy to come to the hotel the next day and for them to tell everything that they know as Well, and they do. And these confessions are also caught on tape. Ateef tells Mr. Big that he watched Sebastian kill his mother and he removed the family

VCR, but other than that, he didn't participate in the killings. When asked why they had killed his parents, Atif said that it was to get money. They wanted the money. They wanted to be rich. They wanted to be successful. Sebastian added some additional details about the killing of Basma. And this one is, it really stands out to you on the tapes, Gibbs, because, and the tapes are very hard to understand. It's why we're not playing a lot of audio.

But Sebastian says on the tape that in reference to the beating and of Basma in which she ultimately died, it took a little more bat work. than he had expected. That's what he said. And they both laughed about it. Yeah. After he said it. Even a teeth. And this is his older autistic sister.

That's crazy. For what? Some money. And Jimmy is at the hotel as well, talking to Mr. Big. And he told Mr. Big that he knew about the plan to kill the Raffae family about a month before it happened. He explained that he. He was not in Bellevue that night with Sebastian and Atif because he was too busy at work. On July 31st, 1995, Sebastian Atif and Jimmy were arrested by the RCMP and charged as fugitives.

And this was because Sebastian and Atif had been charged in King County with three counts of aggravated first-degree murder. King County requested extradition of the two men and refused to waive the potential application of the death penalty. And this is a huge decision by King County because Canada had abolished the death penalty. They weren't all that King Gibbs on extraditing Sebastian and Atif back to the U.S. as long as the possibility of them getting the death penalty existed. And the two countries, Canada and the United States would fight over this for a number of years. And it wasn't until February 15th, 2001, that the Canadian Supreme Court ruled that they could not be extradited without a waiver of the death penalty.

Gibbs, this is six years, almost six years after they were arrested and, charged and they're still in Canada. So the King County prosecutor in Seattle has to give in, has to agree to Canada's demands not to seek the death penalty. This is the only way he's going to get these two guys back in King County. Sebastian and Atif are now 25 years old and they were finally extradited to face the murder charges if convicted. The max that they could get would be life without parole. And it was on April 6th, 2001 that Sebastian and Atif were finally sent to Washington and arraigned. Meanwhile, Jimmy entered into an immunity agreement. So Gibbs, I think we want to focus on Sebastian right now and his defense. He was

represented initially by a woman named Teresa Olson. And right out of the gate, he tells Olson and investigators that he lied during those meetings and that the undercover officers had intimidated him into making a false confession. Not just him. He also says that they intimidated Atif and Jimmy as well. He said that he thought if they didn't tell Mr. Big what he and the rest of the guys wanted to hear, they would be killed. So this is him trying to explain why he said what he did.

But in the summer of 2002, this case takes a very bizarre turn. Jail guards at the King County Jail reported seeing Teresa Olson having sex with her client Sebastian Burns during an attorney client meeting. So this is a scandal. And it caught the attention of the national media. and it brought the whole case to a halt. You know, the judge said he had no choice but to dismiss Olson from the case. So from there, Sebastian gets what, I guess you give, you'd have to call a dream team.

I would call it a dream team. He gets two Ivy League trained defense attorneys, Jeff Robinson and Song Richardson, and then adds a third attorney, Amanda Lee. And these attorneys were among Seattle's best and most expensive criminal defense. attorneys, but they agreed to take this very high profile case for a public defender's wage. So they weren't doing it pro bono, but not, they weren't getting their big whopping normal hourly rate. You couldn't ask for a better scenario. I mean, really. I mean, it's like getting public defender rate, but you're getting a dream team. Yeah. I mean, it's what you want. Best scenario. Best scenario ever.

for him. When it comes to that, yes. Now, the prosecutors in Seattle, they weren't slouches, right? These were seasoned professionals, very successful in their own right. The prosecution team was led by James Conat and Roger David Heiser. So we fast forward another year, September of 2003. By this time, Gibbs, Sebastian and the Teef had been in jail for more than eight years. That's a long time, you know, waiting for trial, waiting for. for anything, eight years to sit in jail. That is a long time. That's an incredibly long time.

Most of that was spent during that time that Canada was fighting the extradition. True. Five or six of those, six of those years. Yeah, exactly. They have been charged this entire time, but not convicted of anything. And really, when it came down to it, the majority of the case against them hinged on those controversial confessions, the taped confessions during the Mr. Big Sting. It hinged all completely on that. I think that's where everything for this case is. And I think

that's why this case is so talked about is because of the confessions. Superior Court Judge Charles Martel had to decide if Sebastian and Atif's confessions on tape in Canada would be allowed to be used in an American court. And Mertel knew that this was going to be his most controversial ruling. And this is what he ruled. I do not find the undercover officer's conduct in this case shocking or outrageous, although they were deceitful, persistent, and aggressive. They engaged in tricks, but not dirty tricks.

So he's going to allow these tapes into evidence. But remember, the defense. is going to say that these aren't true, right? Sebastian, Atif, they're all going to say that they were coerced into making these statements. It would be in November 2003, more than nine years after the murders, that Sebastian and Atif would get their first day in court. All right, Gibbs, I think this is a good place to stop part one because we are about to get into the trial. And there is a lot more to cover, but we're going to have to do that in part two next week. We've got some voicemails, though.

You want to check those out? Yes, check them out. This is for Fergalicious. I swear to God, I feel like to share a brain sometimes. I was just listening to the Bob Crane episode, and Gibby said, like, bang session. And I was like, did he just say, like, a bang session? And then you said it. And then I just, you guys crack me up.

And I swear to God, if he says something, and I think something in my head, and then you say it, and I'm like, thank you. I would just answer that question. So I really appreciate your banter and your insight and all the work that you do. And this is Jill Miller from Chicago, and I hope you got your goodie box. They sent you. And you guys are fantastic. Thank you so much.

So love that voicemail Gibbs. And it made me think of something. How awesome would it be if we could figure out how to do. a live podcast. Yeah. Where people could call in or they were somehow already on the line and could interject and say, Givie, what are you talking about? Yeah.

Well, we can do that. What do you mean this movie that you know the first name of one actor and nothing else about it? We got to figure out how to do that. We could hook it up, man. We could hook it up. We need somebody that knows more about technology than we do. Yeah.

I think it's pretty easy. actually. It probably is. But we definitely can do Facebook live like we did when Melana taped us. And people can ask questions on the screen. You know, we just need like a third person here. Why we're doing our thing that they could read the questions. They can say like John from whatever, he's asking what's give me thinking about saying something like that or why is Mike saying this? You know, we just need that third person to be with us. You know, maybe one of your daughters, your wife, or maybe there's somebody in this area that's a listener that wants to join us in the studio for the recording. We would have to be much better at what we do because you're talking about no editing whatsoever.

That's scary. You're talking about going live. That's really scary. It is. Not to edit me? Yeah. That's dangerous. I think it would be, but it would also be a lot of fun.

And we did get the goodies and we'll talk about those in the mailbag section. Okay. I probably say most stuff with your father. But when you set that like Seinfeld, and by the way, my fellow darling was, come on now, you got the boots, you got the wranglers, you got to come up with something else for it.

Have a great one. Keep your own time of ticket. We always love when Lisa, the dispatcher calls in. She's left us a number of voicemails. Sure. And she literally has mushrooms growing in a crack, which I get a kick out of.

You too. My kids have always gotten a chuckle out of that saying. I've used it for years. I don't care if mushrooms grow out of your crack. Right. Yeah. They always laugh at it. Clearly everybody else liked it too.

Now, what she is saying is you need to step up your game. You can't be talking about wearing Wranglers and Ariad boots and then not be willing to bust out a song every now. How do you like that belt buckle I got on today? It's pretty sweet. Isn't it pretty big? I'm blinded. Yeah. Bling, bling, bling.

I don't know why you had to bedazzle it. It was pretty cool the way it was. Did I go too far? Yeah, I think you're gluing extra rhinestones and just a bit too much. And spelling out Gibby, I think it's a little. On the back part of the belt. I think it's a little gauche. Uh, nothing wrong with a little gauche now and then.

Hi, Mike and Gibby. This is Sarah Jones from Wellington, New Zealand. I listen to you every week and really, really enjoy you. In fact, I listen to you more than once every week because I go. they can listen to the old ones as well. And my husband enjoys listening to you guys with me too. And so do teenagers. Yeah, and yeah, we have lots and lots of laughs.

We're really into true crime. Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks for the great work you do. And, yeah, maybe sometime you could do something on a New Zealand crime. Look up the Lundi murders. Yeah, really interesting stuff all the way down here. Anyway, take it easy and keep your own time ticking. See ya. All right.

Thanks for that voicemail. We have a lot of New Zealand listeners. Boy, we do. You with the only. It's a good stuff, you know. So we need to do a New Zealand case, and we'll definitely look at that one. We do. We got to do something down under and over to the left.

To the left. I was watching Deadpool the other day. Yeah. I love Deadpool. I watched one and two. And in one, Have you ever seen it, Gibbs? That's all one.

One, he's doing his, oh, the guy that plays Wolverine. Oh, yeah, yeah, Hugh Jackman. He's doing his Hugh Jackman impersonation. Yeah. And he's doing a pretty good voice imitation of him. But he says something about he's got a pair of smooth criminals down under or something. It made me think of you, like, trying to do your voice. Right.

His was much better. Oh, ouch. Hi, guys. This is Jess calling from Melbourne in Australia. I just wanted to say that I'm loving the podcast. I listen to it all the time. Can't get enough. And the banter that you guys have is so funny.

It's a very good formula. So keep it up. And I wanted to tell you something kind of creepy that happened to me the other day. I shared your profile on Instagram. So I took a screenshot of your feed and shared it on Instagram. And then I don't know if you're familiar with Snapchat, but in Snapchat, there's a feature where you can swap faces with whatever faces are in your camera roll. So I'm going to send a snap to someone. And next thing I know, there's my face with, I'm looking at myself with all the faces.

I got to admit, I kept it too long. I don't know if that's weird or not, but it was kind of fun. Maybe you should try it. Anyway, thanks, guys. I'll hear from you soon. Well, I will hear you soon. Okay, bye. You might hear from us soon.

You don't know. You never know what's going to happen. I don't know that that's at weird, Gibbs, for our crowd, the true crime crowd. I think a lot of people would do the same thing if that anomaly happened to them. I don't know anything about Snapchat because I've never used it. But if I looked down and saw, you know, my face transposed with Bernardo, that would be weird. It'd be really weird. I would have a hard time not looking at it and saying, oh, that's strange.

That'd be really strange. All right, Gibbs, that's it for voicemails. Let's go to the mail bag. K. Cole, sending some Harley chips from the great. state of North Carolina. Joe DeCaro sent in some chips from Washington State. Maybe he's close to Bellevue. I don't know. Well, I bet maybe he is close to Bellevue. Well, it's a big state. I mean, big state, but not a super big state. It's pretty big state. It's pretty big. Yeah. And then Jill Miller, who you heard in the first voicemail, she sent in some Harley chips,

but she also sent us a couple of curly whirly bars, which you know we love. And, and And my new absolute favorite Gibbs, and this is not a advertisement for this company, but she sent in something called Duke's Saracha Shorty Sausages. Man, you are in love. I am like addicted to these shorty sausages, they call them. You were eating them at work. I just take the bag with me. You walking down the aisle, just shoving them in.

I was thinking about buying a fanny pack just to keep the sausages in. Yeah, I'm telling you, you, I've never seen you so happy. I mean, seriously. I'm on top of the world. Like, the last time I saw you that happy is when you got the Buckees beef turkey. The Buckees is good too. But this stuff, whatever, whatever you are, you're crazy over the stuff, man. And I did like the Bucky so much.

I bought some new Buckees on Amazon, had it shipped in from Texas. It's good stuff, man. It's really good stuff. stuff. It is. All right, everyone. We appreciate it. We appreciate everything you do for us. We appreciate you listening. The sharing, the liking. We love it all. So that's it for another episode of True Crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.