True Crime All The Time - The Rafay Family Murders Part2

Episode Date: September 3, 2018

In the early morning hours of June 13, 1994, most of the members of the Rafay family were found murdered in their home. They were found by their son, Atif Rafay, and his friend, Sebastian Burns, who had been out on the town.Join Mike and Gibby for part 2 of 2 of this murder mystery. Who would want to murder a professional, and loving family? Police would begin to focus their attention on Atif and Sebastian. After being extradited back to the United States, Atif and Sebastian would face trial. The question of their guilt or innocence would come down largely to what they said on the confession tapes.You can help support the show by going to patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at www.truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationSponsors:Daily Harvest - Go to daily-harvest.com/tcatt and use the promo code tcatt to get 3 free cups with your first order.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey everyone and welcome to episode 94 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime. Mike Gibson, Gibby, what's going on? Hey man, I'm doing good, man. How about you? Man, man, man. Man. I'm getting there.

I'm trying to get over a pretty bad case of strep throat that's had me down for the last three or four days. It really did, man. It knocked you out. It was massive. Yeah. I just had the cold. You got the worst part. Yeah, but I'm coming out the other side of it.

Hey, you fed me fish tonight, man. Yeah. So my wife goes and gets dinner and Gibby says, oh yeah, I don't eat fish. I'm like, who doesn't eat fish? You don't eat fish at all? No. Yeah. But you ate it.

I did. I was good, you know, I ate my piece of fish. Yep. See how I feel later. Yeah, you'll be all right. It can't be as worse as some of the nasty pizza that we eat. Oh, that's true. That causes the heartburn.

That one, man, wow. Yeah, we fill it for sure. It's good, though. It is good. It just doesn't agree with our esophagus. Did you just say suffagus? Esophagus. Yeah, esophagus.

Yeah. Comes back up. Maybe you said that the first time, but it came out what I heard was suffagus. Yeah, that's a murder term. In Gibby's murder dictionary. That's right. Suffolgus, you. So we've got some new Patreon shoutouts to give.

We had M. Turner. Hey, M. Clay Seismore. Thank you, Clay. Nancy Ann Gwynn jumped out of our highest level. Thank you. Michelle Schultz. Hey, Michelle.

Sarah Canaveri. Cana Valle. Alexa Munoz Aquino. What a quino? Adam. Adam. Debbie T. Debbie T.

What's up? Jim Horton. Tim Horton's brother. Meg Weaver. Hey, Mike. Terry Coombs jumped up to our highest level. Hey, thank you. Rainey Mott. Hey, Rainy. Matt Ryan. That's. May or may not be the quarterback for the Atlanta Falcons. Pretty sure it is.

Ashley Ream. Claire McMillan. Then we had Jason, Christine, and Jack Hackworth. That's a mouthful. So we got all the hackwors. We got them all. We got the hackwors. So that makes up for losing all the people we've lost, like the Carnies. The Carnies. Yeah. The Hemsworth. I think we lost all the Hemsworth brothers. So we had it one time.

So it's coming back around. We had Andy Cheezy Rivera. Cheesy Rivera. Wow. Tracy Johnston jumped out at our highest level. Hey, thank you. Geithen Jolly Barman. Hey, Gevin.

Gee. Let's just go with ghee on that one. Like butter? Like clarified butter? Gee? I don't know how you spell that. G-H-E? No.

No, okay. I'm not as big a foodie as you are. I don't sit around watching Bobby Flay all day cooking up these masterpieces. Yeah, but you want that stuff on your kitchen table when it's done. Oh, yeah, I want what you make. I'm just not well-versed in all the terms like you are. You could have took the apron off before you came over to the house. I'm not sure why you're still wearing it, but...

It's kind of cool. Yeah, it's all right. You know. My wife gets a kick out of it. Yeah, she should. People could see what it look like. Jason Grimm. Griggs jumped out at our highest level.

Hey, Jason. Megan Staley. Hey, Megan. Patricia Tobin. Thank you. Amy Nichols. And Teresa John Nessie. John Nessie.

Or John E's. John Nessie. Not sure. Then if we go back into the Volk Gibbs. Let's go back. This week we selected Ryan Crum. Okay. So, big shout out to Ryan.

Big thanks. We just followed the crumbs and found him. We did. Yep. And he was right there. All along. So we appreciate all the people that continue to support us and the new folks that have chosen to support us. We had some PayPal support as well.

We had Jessica Metz, Kate Massey and Jenna Williams. Wow. Thank you. And thank you. So we appreciate that from everyone. So Gibbs, we were off last week on Unsolved. We put out the Patreon only episode on Carla Faye Tucker, which I thought was a really good one. I think people liked it.

But we're back this week on Unsolved. with a case about Peggy Hedrick in, out of Colorado. And then I want to remind everybody, we've got new magnets in the store, T-Cat logo magnets. They're really cool. Check those out. All right, Gibbs, we ready to finish up this story on the Raffa family murders. Yeah, I am. We're into part two.

Let's do it. So let's recap just a little bit. The Raffa family was murdered. Tarek the dad, Sultana, the mom, and the daughter, Basma. Years would go by, but police would eventually arrest the son, Atifra Faye, and his friend Sebastian Burns for the murders. And most of this Gibbs was based around a sting operation where the boys admitted on tape that they had done it. Yeah, I mean, it was right out there in the opening for everybody.

it here and see. So at this point in the story, we're in 2003. Sebastian and Atif had been in jail for more than eight years, and they're getting ready to go on trial. And we left off that the judge had just ruled that the tapes that were made of them, of the two boys, could be used in court. Which was huge. It's a huge ruling. Now, picking up in this episode, we have to go back to those confessions, right? Because they're shocking, but as shocking as the confessions are, the defense is going to counter them by saying they're not true. The boys were making it up. They were saying things to impress somebody. That's what the defense is going to say. It would be in November 2003. This is more than nine years after the murders occurred. And we talked in episode one about Ateef and Sebastian taking off to

Canada right before the funeral of Ateef's family was about ready to be held. The defense attorney would say, yeah, they did. You know, Ateef was tired of being trapped in the hotel room. They also said that Ateef was not told by anyone when the funeral services were going to be held. Yeah, and he's actually kind of upset about it when he found out when the services were held that it was, he was told after the fact. But I will say this, is that the investigator came back and said, Atif knew when all this was going to happen,

because he knew by their law of religion that the body needed to be buried within three days of the death, and that family members were the only ones allowed to wash the body for prep for burial. So, you know, here's a guy that, you know, was going to Cornell. So smart young man,

and they're saying that he, He would have known that because he practiced his religion. So, of course, he knew the funeral date was going to be three days after their death. Yeah, I don't get that one. I think that one's really hard for the defense to spin. Not saying what they're coming out and saying is not true. It probably is true, right? Nobody told him.

But to your point, nobody needed to tell him. No. I mean, that was his deal to make sure. I mean, if he didn't do it and he was grieving, but you would assume that he would be around. other family members, you know, and they would grieve together and work that out. Yep. Months later at a memorial service for the refes in British Columbia, a teeth in Sebastian were

seen laughing and running away into a car once reporters spotted them. Yeah, it was kind of an awkward video, really. The clip was they're arriving to the memorial service and, you know, next thing you know, they're reporters, as they would, start asking questions. and he gets like a nervousness over him and starts laughing and, you know, he kind of, you know, runs away from the reporter. Sebastian follows suit. They get into the car and they take off, you know, and they get a good picture of him, you know, them laughing. So you can imagine how that went over in the media.

So these are things that happened after the refas were murdered that didn't make either Ateef or Sebastian look good. But it's November of 2003 that Sebastian and Atif get their first day in court. And the prosecutors start off by examining the 911 call, which they felt was made at a time early in the night where Atif and Sebastian would have been unable to do all of the things they said they did that night and still make the 911 call at the time at the time it was made. because when the prosecution broke down the men's timeline as they had given it, it really gave them about three minutes to arrive home, discover all three bodies, do everything they said that they had done, and then make the call. Doable? Not doable?

I don't know. Three minutes is not that much time. It goes by very quickly. It does. I think so. And it was the boys who said that. they pulled the family car into the garage, entered the home through the garage, discovered Sultana, Tariq, and Basma in three different areas of the house.

They had all been attacked and they were dead. Defense attorney Song Richardson delivered the opening argument for the defense and asked jurors how long does it take to walk into a house and see these. brutally butchered bodies and run downstairs and call 911. And to demonstrate her point, she walked around the courtroom for a minute and a half and timed it with her stopwatch. She asked how long is three minutes. But in stressing this three minute time period to the jury, it doesn't seem as though

Richardson had taken into account the time it would have taken for the defendant. to realize that a burglary had occurred or the time to figure out that the Sony Discman and the VCR was missing. And Sebastian would say on the stand that he was hysterical when he called 911. And that was the reason why he said on the call that it was a break-in versus the fact that, you know, they had found three dead individuals. And Gibbs, the prosecution would try to dismiss this break-in theory as being bogus. And they would do that by centering on the fact that, you know, it looked like all someone did in the room where Sebastian was staying was knock over some file boxes, but not really go through anything.

You know, they looked at it as this was something that was staged. The defense brought forward some witnesses that were neighbors who said they heard sounds coming from the home somewhere around 9 p.m., 9.30 p.m., close to that time. And this is about the time that the young men said they were headed to the movie. The defense also produced witnesses that saw Sebastian and Atif go into the movies for the 950. PM showing, but the prosecution would fire back at that. I mean, yeah, they would say, sure, you've got some witnesses that saw the young men go in, but there's no proof that they stayed for the movie. And on top of that, the neighbor's times, the witnesses' times could be off by, you know,

as much as 30 minutes. Yeah, and I agree with that. You mean, how many times you've got, you're going to see a 10 o'clock movie, but, you know, you get there early. so someone can see you you know hey they were there for the 10 o'clock but we got there

you know maybe at 940 or something like that man I could go in get my tickets punched or whatever whatever they do today and then have you not seen a movie in the last five years I have I don't remember what they do they just tear your ticket or something

don't they just tear it in half they give you part of it I haven't been to a movie where they actually punched a ticket the good old days I don't know if that was the good old days I can't remember when they did that. Let me punch your ticket.

Did they? Yeah. But, uh, like a train car conductor. Yeah. That's what you're thinking of. And then you just sneak out the back of the, well, probably today. You probably just turn around and walk back out the front, you know, it was one of the big

cinnoplexes, you know? Yeah, some of them are pretty big. Yeah. The prosecution had an interesting witness of their own. This was a woman that went to high school with Sebastian and a teeth. And this one Gibbs was so interesting that the judge. judge had to actually hear the testimony first and make a decision whether the juror should be allowed to hear it.

And apparently what this witness said was that she had once dated Sebastian and she claimed that a late night conversation that she had with both Sebastian and the teeth, this happened years ago, had hinted at the fact that. they might one day commit murder. She told the court that Sebastian said, I want to try to kill someone one day to see how it would feel because I think I would find it enjoyable.

It's a strange thing to say when you're hanging out with friends. It seems like very strange conversation for high schoolers. And clearly, she remembered it. That's how much it stood out as strange. Now, Sebastian would say on the stand that he did say that.

But he was joking around. It was late at night. Everybody was joking. This was a conversation with friends that happened more than 10 years ago. The judge heard all the testimony and ruled that the jury was not going to be allowed to hear this information. I mean, it would be pretty damaging, I would think. If he would have allowed it in, sure. Yeah.

It was a blow to the prosecution, no doubt. but they still had another witness and this was going to be Jimmy Miyoshi. We talked about him in episode one. He was a friend of the boys, the men. I got to start calling them men now. I mean, they're full grown men at this point. Yeah. And his testimony would be pretty damaging because we talked about the fact that when Jimmy was

arrested along with Sebastian and the teeth, he took a plea deal for immunity. then while the prosecution was building their case against the two men, Jimmy moved to Japan and changed his name. Yeah, so he's trying to avoid coming back and testifying against his buddies. And he could because he had dual citizenship. So he was okay, just going to hang out in Japan for the rest of his life. But he makes one critical mistake. he gets relaxed and he ends up going to work for a U.S. corporation that has offices in Japan.

And the prosecutor is pretty good. He reaches out to the corporation. The corporation said, hey, you need to go back to the U.S. and take care of this or you're not going to work here anymore. Actually, you and your wife will no longer work for our corporation. And I guess they had really good jobs. So the pressure works, Gibbs. Jimmy decides that he needs to come back. to United States and take the stand.

And while on the stand, he would say that he was driving from Seattle to Vancouver when a T first brought up the idea of killing his family. At the time of your arrest on July 31, 1995, were they honest answers? They were answers that, I guess the intention of a lot of those answers was to protect. Sebastian and Atteef. At that point, on July 31, 1995, why is it that you gave answers that were designed to protect Sebastian and Atif? I guess it was also in a way to protect myself, but in general, because I didn't want

Sebastian and Intif to get arrested and potentially convicted. Have this subject ever come up before? The notion of Hatif Rafé killing his family? No, this was the first time. What was your response to the notion of, Hatif's notion of killing his family? I guess I was listening and I mean, he was my friend at the time, and I guess in a way I was neutral on that notion. Remember which methods were discussed?

I remember something about, um, gassing the house and I remember discussion about I guess using a baseball bat. What do you remember about why a baseball bat could or should be used? It's a quick and painless way of killing someone. All right, Gibbs, there's a lot in there that we need to break down. You know, Jimmy Mioshi wasn't quite truthful. the very beginning. He admits to that. He does talk about the fact that a teeth brought it up to him the idea of killing his family. But it's this part about the methods. You know, first they talk about

gassing the house. Right. Then they talk about using a baseball bat, which was what was ultimately used. But how was that painless? It's not. That's what I couldn't, that's the biggest thing that jumped out at me about that clip is how in the world does anyone think that beating someone to death with a baseball bat would be quick and painless in any form or fashion. Yeah, you can kill somebody with a baseball bat, but I don't think it's instantaneous. It's not usually going to be one blow. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it's going to be painful. Another thing that Jimmy said on the stand was that part of the plan that was discussed was for the two boys to stay at the Raffa home so that their fingerprints and their DNA would be there, right? It wouldn't be

strange for forensics to find either their fingerprints or DNA because they'd been living there. Yeah. I mean, it makes good sense. It does. Jimmy told the jury that Sebastian and Atif told him, that on the night of the murder, Ateef watched while Sebastian beat his family to death. Jimmy said that Ateef was shocked after witnessing the first blow against his mom in that he realized that even if he wanted to stop it, he couldn't do it at that point in time. You know, the plan was already too far down the path.

Which, you know, if you really wanted to stop something, you just stop it. You know, and deal with it. But he didn't want to deal with the consequences then. And he allowed it to continue on. You know, if this is what happened, he allowed it to continue on. Yeah, I think it's the word couldn't. Yeah. He could have stopped it.

Absolutely. But he's saying, I couldn't stop it at that point because the plan was already in motion. Right. So what are they, how are they going to explain the fact that Sebastian is beating up his mom or maybe had already killed his mom, but not the other two. Yeah. I think that's what he's saying. I agree with you.

Yeah, you're right. They made a bad decision, but we've got to go all the way with it. Yeah. That's the way I was taking it. We made it. So we were in it together. We're going to follow it through. That's the way I took it.

So the defense attorney comes back against Jimmy. They accuse him of lying to save his own neck. Yeah, I mean, he did make that deal early on. Yep. He made a deal. And part of that deal was that he had. to testify against Sebastian and a teeth. And they always say if you're going to make a deal, be the first one.

That's who gets the best deal. So the defense would also claim that it was three people in the house, not two, wasn't Sebastian, wasn't a teeth. It was three individuals in there because it appeared from the blood spatter on the wall and on the floor. There was one spot that was pretty much clear of any blood spatter, which meant that somebody had to be standing there, watching whoever did do the beating.

And then they claim that there's another spot in the room where somebody had to move a pillow during the blows, which gives them the third person. And then they do their own little forensic test outside of what the prosecution had to confirm it for their studies, for them to use to say this. It's kind of hard.

I mean, to me, it's all theories. They're saying, look, I can see where somebody, had to be standing because if they weren't standing there, the blood would have been on the wall. Why is there a void of blood on this wall? Why there's a void of blood on the floor here? Somebody had to be standing in that spot. So I can get where they can say two people were in the room.

Their theory of the third person moving a cushion or a pillow on the other side of the room, I don't know how you can really drive that point because that could have happened at any point during the murders. I don't know how you really bring that home so solid that there was a third person there. But the defense pushes it. The defense is really going for there was three people that did this murder, not two. But the prosecution gives, they're going to come back and say, yeah, of course there's a void of blood spatter where somebody was standing. That's a teeth.

That's a teeth watching Sebastian murder his family. Now, the defense also wanted to introduce other possibilities to the jurors. One of these was that the murders were committed by Muslim extremists. And this was all centered around the measurement of what's known as True East, the direction that Muslims face to prey. Ateef's father had discovered his own theory that True East was actually, off by one and a half degrees from what others considered true east and that would be a problem if you truly all these thousands of years were praying at you know a true east and and millions and

millions of people yeah a lot of people you know and then you've then you come out and say uh hey by the way you guys need to face this way a little bit more you're not really praying to the right direction. It would cause havoc. And you might want to redo your mosque. You might want to rebuild them or, you know, change it up a little bit. Yeah, that'd be huge. And there was an informant that came forward to the RCMP, stating that he had information

about a hit on a Pakistani family in Bellevue, Washington. And he gave this information to the RCMP. two weeks before the murders occurred. And apparently, Bellevue was told by the RCMP about this after the murders occurred, but there was no further investigation. But ultimately, the judge ruled that he would not allow this to be brought up at trial. So he had ruled against the prosecution. Now he had ruled against the defense.

The defense would also try to introduce that. the family was murdered by a terrorist organization. And it was, again, all over this issue of what was really true East. And I think that's why you see this referred to often as the True East murders. And this terrorist organization was believed to be behind the murder of a family in 1984 who was close friends to the president of the. company that Tarek Raffa worked for at the time of his murder. Which is pretty compelling, really statement.

If it's true. If it's true. Sure. If it's true, I mean, it's true that this family was murdered. What I don't believe is known is that whether or not it was at the hands of this terrorist organization. And did it really have anything to do with their association to the president of the company that just happens to be the president of the company that Atif's dad worked for.

Right. We don't know how all that correlates. Exactly. The FBI contacted the Bellevue police as well and told them that they had an informant who had details about the murders and was connected to the local Iman who ordered the murders. Yeah, I mean, the Iman selected two individuals from his group, told them to go ahead and take care of it. And that same FBI informant said that he actually met one of these guys a couple days right after the murder. And the one guy popped open his trunk and pointed and showed him

the baseball bat that was used. And this is before the police had even stated that the murders were done with a bat because they were still working the case. So it wasn't well known that a baseball bat was used in the murder. If this is all true. Right. All right, Gibbs. Let's take a quick break to talk about our sponsor Daily Harvest. Kids are getting back to school. And my kids love Daily Harvest for when they need healthy fuel fast. Daily Harvest delivers perfectly proportioned cups of frozen organic fruits and vegetables directly to your door. All you have to do is add water or milk like Gibby does because he's fancy. To the cup, you are fancy. Blend or heat. And they've got these new savory harvest bowls. They're amazing. It's a healthy dinner that's much fast.

than takeout. And one thing that I really like Gibbs are the plant-based ready-to-blend protein smoothies. I mean, these are dessert-inspired flavors like chocolate and hazelnut that pack at least 10 grams of protein. And the cups are portable. You know, you can grab one out of the fridge on your way to work, take it with you. So our listeners can go to daily dash harvest.com and enter the promo code T-Cat to get three cups free in your first box. That's promo code T-Cat for three. free daily harvest cups at daily dash harvest.com. Daily dash harvest.com. So the FBI, the informant, the imman, all of this was information that the defense attorneys tried to introduce to the jury. But again, the judge would not allow this into court. So the jury never heard about it.

And again, we don't even know if this is true. We just know that it's something that the defense tried to introduce. Yeah, which I mean, I get clearly why they wanted to do that. But the judge must have felt that there was not enough solid evidence to introduce it. Which is strange, because if the FBI really had this information, you would think they would be able to introduce it. Now, to keep under that whole True East theory, the one thing I found interesting too was that it was said in one of the articles is that the mom was actually.

found with her head facing due east, true east, and she had a shawl covering, you know, her head up. They thought it was important to point that out that it looked like to them that somebody killed her and then positioned her body so that her head was facing true east. But they never got to actually point it out, right? Because it was part of what the judge struck down. Right. But I mean, again, they were trying to sell that whole true east theory. Yeah, they're working that angle. Yeah. Or they're trying to work. it. Yeah, they tried. The prosecution introduced DNA evidence and specifically it was 22 hairs found at the bottom of the shower. And we talked about this in episode one. As part of the investigation,

they realized that someone had showered in the home and had showered off blood. Well, these 22 hairs all belong to Sebastian. They also found that, both of the boys underwear was wet but clean in the washing machine. And they would even send it off for testing, but I guess that washing machine did a really good job because they couldn't get anything off the underwear. Now, the defense would bring up DNA, found in some drops of blood that was located in the garage.

When it was analyzed, it didn't match either Sebastian or Teef. So the defense hit on this and said, okay, whose blood is this? It's got to be another suspect, right? Yeah, couldn't be one of those true East guys. And they said the same thing about a hair found in the dining room and a fingerprint on the shower door and one spot of blood in the shower. None of these three things were linked to either Sebastian or Tiv. And there was a single hair found on Tarek's bed that didn't match the young men either.

So, you know, the prosecutors are going to answer this pretty fast. They're going to say, yeah, we have some DNA samples, but that DNA evidence needs to fit a pattern. And you can have miscellaneous DNA appear anywhere in a house. Doesn't mean that's the killer, right? It could have been somebody that was in the house over a period of time. So it's just basically inconclusive. And you can't use that and say, well, because we have this blood drop,

out in the garage or this single hair in this one room that that means that the two boys didn't do anything it just means we can't tell you who those DNA samples belong to all we can say they didn't belong to the boys but it doesn't mean that they actually belong to some killer but the defense is pushing towards it must have been the killers who else would it have been so the prosecution is saying our DNA is a pattern your DNA the defense is not a pattern right Gibbs exactly what they're saying but then the defense is saying okay your 22 shower hairs are there because that's the shower that Sebastian used earlier that day before they headed out on the town and that makes sense sure I mean the problem is there's a lot of back and forth

both sides are claiming that my evidence is good your evidence is bad And what's it going to come down to? It's going to come down to what the jury believes happened that night based on who they believe as far as the DNA evidence, what they hear and what they believe from over 100 witnesses. And of course, the famous Mr. Big Tapes, how they interpret what Atif and Sebastian say on those tapes. And those were pretty impressive. Packful tapes. I think you see those tapes, listen to them. It's kind of hard to walk away from thinking,

those boys are innocent. So I think it's important in talking about the Mr. Big tapes to say that as of today, those tapes would not be admissible in the U.S. Court of Law. But back then they were. So what the defense was left with was to make the jury believe, that these were young, naive boys who fell for a scam and were coerced into making false confessions, right? That's what the defense is going to set out to do.

They would claim that Sebastian was scared for his life from these mob guys and he would have said anything to sound like he belonged. he would have said exactly what he thought they wanted to hear. The defense brought up at trial that these guys that were acting like the mafia, they were seasoned professionals going up against, you know, these two young men that weren't ready for this game that they were playing, that they didn't know they were playing, but that they were playing. Sebastian stated in testimony, quote, I believe that if I crossed them or if they were,

weren't happy with me or if they thought I was going to betray them, that they would have me killed. But prosecutor said Sebastian could have walked away at any time from these mob guys, but he chose to return time after time. And that's a true statement. I mean, really, if he was that concern, he could have stepped away. Yeah, I think you can make the argument both ways. You could say, why did he come back? And somebody could make the argument that, well, I came back because if I didn't come back, I thought I was going to be killed. So you feared for your life. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's true, too. Really, Gibbs, if you ask me, that's what this case comes down to. A lot of it, right? Whether you believe what these two boys said on the tapes was real, or whether

you believe that they were playing a game, saying things that weren't true, to make themselves appear big and bad. Yeah, that they were these tough, tough guys. They were trying to fit in. The defense put forth the theory that Sebastian stayed and came back to meet with the mob guys in the hopes that he would be able to get them to help get rid of the evidence that he believed the Bellevue police had against him. And he stated on the stand.

My plan was to claim to be the moment. murderer that they insisted that they believed I was. So let's talk about the tapes a little bit more. We know when Sebastian was in the hotel room with Mr. Big, he said he used a baseball bat and that he showered before leaving the scene. He also said on the tapes that when he committed the murders, he was wearing only his boxers. But the defense points out that there are two different parts of the tape.

one where Ateef said that he and Sebastian had just bought the bat and another where Sebastian said he didn't know where the bat came from it was already at the house so in the same tapes Sebastian would reveal how he and Ateef would profit from the crime

and he would say whatever money we get we would invest into the film so the prosecutors would play part of the recording that Ateef had with Mr. Big the next day. And during this conversation, Atif would state how he staged the break-in why Sebastian killed the family.

So Sebastian was killing the individuals. Meanwhile, Atif was in there knocking the boxes over, taking the VCR off the wall, grabbing the disc man, you know, trying to make it look like a burglary versus what it really was. So, Gibbs, I don't think there's any doubt. These tapes were damaged.

to the defense in this trial. There was a lot of information on the tapes from why to how to when they did it. And even though there were some irregularities or discrepancies between what Sebastian and Atif said, you know it was hard for the jury to get past what they both said on these tapes And really what they said so easily, you know, in some parts of the tape, they laugh. In one particular part that is always stuck in my head, and I think we might have mentioned it in the first episode, I can't remember. But it's where a teeth laughs after they're talking about how Sebastian used the baseball bat on his autistic sister. That is very hard to get past.

It's extremely hard to get fast. And at the trial, the prosecution brought for some information about Sebastian. And this was something that he had done prior to the murder. He got in trouble. He wrecked a car. But the key was that he used the I Was at the movies as his alibi. Mr. Burns, the reality is what you said about doing was very similar to what you told Haslett you did in this case. Isn't that correct?

I told the Hazlitt that we committed a murder, which we didn't do. Well, Mr. Burns, let me stop you there for a moment. And in March of 1992, I'll be it with this stupid little car crash. What you decided to do was to pick up the pieces of evidence that were at the scene of this collision. Am I right? Correct. You put those back in your car, am I correct? Correct.

You took them to an entirely different location in North Vancouver. Am I right? Correct. And you staged a scene in a parking lot. Am I right? Basically. You manipulated the evidence to appear as though it was something that it wasn't. Am I right?

Yes. And the reason you did that, sir, was so that you could say that this accident occurred while you were at the movies. Am I right? Correct. Sir, you weren't at the movies when that accident occurred, were you? No. The difference is that the first one is a car accident and the second one is a homicide. homicide. That's correct, Mr. Burns. That is a difference. The difference is also that in the first case,

I was responsible for the car accident, and in the second case, I had nothing to do with this homicide. So you heard it, right? Prosecutors are saying that Sebastian manipulated evidence back then. I think he was around 16 at the time he did that. So why wouldn't he be able to do it now with something much more serious, right, where his life is on the line. And like we just talked about Gibbs, prosecutors called him out for laughing on the undercover tape when talking about the deaths of the Rafae family.

They are presenting what was said on those tapes to the jury as the truth. And don't forget that Jimmy confirmed all of this on the stand. So I think Jimmy was a big witness, right? The tapes were cruised. crucial, but Jimmy backing this up was also crucial. Now, again, the defense would claim that Jimmy would say anything he had to say to stay out of prison. And they told the jury that the two boys would have told Mr. Big what they thought he wanted to hear.

So he would not hurt them. And also in the case of Sebastian, so that he would help him get rid of the evidence against him. And the defense would also remind the jury that there was no physical evidence directly tying Sebastian and Atif to the murders. So finally, the prosecution and the defense wrap up their cases and it's given to the jury. It took the jury four days to find Sebastian Burns and Atif or Faye guilty of murder. And let's not forget, this is 10 years after. the murders were committed. That's really a long time

to be in jail. They were jail for what? Almost nine of those 10 years. Yeah. That's a long time. We have a jury. Find the defendant, Glenn Sebastian Burns, guilty of the crime of murder in the first degree Atif Amit Raffei.

Guilty of the crime of murder. Your math skills have global potential. As an actuary, you'll solve some of the world's most pressing problems while helping people to live better lives, become an actuary through the society of actuaries, and work anywhere in the world. On October 22nd, 2004, five months after the verdict, Sebastian and the teeth were back in court

to receive their sentence from the judge. Sebastian gave a speech that was almost two hours long, but it doesn't make him sound good at all. I mean, he comes across this thing in this thing, Gibbs, as, you know, bitter, angry, which you would be if you were not guilty. Right. But to me, it's more than that. He comes off as pompous. He really does. Errigant.

Doesn't look good. People don't like him. No. When they hear him on this tape. And I don't think they liked him on the stand. I don't think he was a good witness for himself. I don't think he did himself any favors. He doesn't come off as a personable.

individual. All right, Mr. Burns, I'm obligated at this point to stop and give you an opportunity to make a statement before I sentence you. You're not required to make a statement, but I'm obligated to give you the opportunity to make a statement. So there's something you want to say, I will certainly consider it. Mr. Burns. Thank you, Your Honor. Morning, ladies and gentlemen. Everybody knows my name is Dr. Dr. Burns. Friend and I have been convicted for a crime we did not commit. Two things I want to discuss this morning. First is a few reasons why I think our trial is unfair, with respect. I'm hoping to make some comments about the evidence. First thing I need to discuss this morning is my motion for a new trial

grounds of ineffective decisions of counsel. And I regret that Mr. Robinson is not here today, and I regret that the trial counsel is not here today, because I would prefer that they have an opportunity to respond to what I want to say. Or but they didn't know about this hearing. They didn't know the law motion for a new trial, and they have heard everything I had to say about it, and they chose not to be here. Now, in 2003, my attorneys first advised me to consider a testifying. between that day and the day that I took the scans

they never injured me about what testimony I needed to give about the undercover police operation from April 13th to July the 31st I had no opportunity to tell them what I needed to say about that So that was just a minute long

I mean obviously we can't play the two hours worth Right And there are some great snippets in those two hours It's just really hard to You know play a lot of it It would take up too much of the podcast And I don't

think Gibbs, you get the entire picture from hearing just the audio. There's something about his mannerisms. There's something about the way that he carries himself. I don't know. He's just not a likable person. Like you said, it comes off, really pompous. Pompous, snotty, snooty. Now, I get being angry if you were convicted of something that you didn't do. You have a chip on your shoulder. But he comes across. cross in a real kind of privileged, shitty way, in my opinion. You think his attorneys would tell him not to do something like that, but then again, he let him go.

So he's out there at this point on his own. And then you have a T for Fay who makes his statement to the judge, and it couldn't have further from the way that Sebastian did it. Really, you're right. I mean, it's how not to and how to. Ateef comes off really well. Very well spoken. In his state.

Well, they're both well spoken. They're smart. Right. But it's just the way the words that they choose. Yeah, the delivery. Ateef's is much more respectful, less condescending. You're on the impersonation that I gave on those video tapes. Yes.

there's no relation this healing to everything that I've ever felt or thought Mr. Rofay, thank you. I don't like your colleague I find you

genuinely remorseful Mr. Ruffay I think the tragedy for you and ultimately your family was a meeting a faithful meeting at a probably a school cafeteria

or a school ground I don't know where it occurred with Mr. Burns So you hear in that clip Atif some of what he said But you also hear Judge Mertel talking about how he feels about a teeth versus how he feels about Sebastian Burns. He's not making any bones about it.

You know, he believes that a teeth and everything that he has said has shown some remorse and that Sebastian has shown none. And you can really tell it in the sentencing portion. Mr. Burns, you're not him. You're amoral. You are an arrogant, convicted killer. You are not a kid as you so often refer to yourself. You're an adult and you will be held responsible as an adult. For your premeditated, naked, vicious massacre of this family. It is therefore the conclusion of this court that you should be sentenced on count one to life without possibility of parole. Count two. to life without possibility of parole. And on count three to life without possibility of parole, those three sentences to run consecutively. So you hear the judge sentence Sebastian

to three consecutive life terms. But the teeth got the same thing. I just don't, I didn't have the clip for it. The words that the judge used were just much different. The sentence was the same, but the words that he used in sentencing each of the men were very different. Well, absolutely.

You can tell his displeasure of Sebastian versus how Atif handled himself within the court. Yeah, yeah, definitely. But Gibbs, I think this is one of those cases where there's some division. You know, there's a camp that believes these two boys absolutely murdered the Raffa family. there's also a camp that thinks they're innocent, that truly believes that what they said on those tapes was not true. Sebastian's sister Tiffany made a documentary about the undercover operation that led to her brother's confession. They've got their own website.

They have some backers, right? Funding the legal fight. Now, I'm pretty sure Sebastian's almost. almost exhausted his, if not already exhausted everything, all his appeals. Ateef might have a little bit left. I have a little fight left. Not much. No.

But I wanted to put that out there. Some of this spurred on by the confession tapes, which if folks haven't seen it, they should watch it on Netflix. The first two episodes are about this case. You definitely can hear a lot of the actual tapes. Judge Mertel ruled that Burns and Raffa can never profit from any screenplay about their crime. Right? That was their big idea on the tape.

We're trying to get funding for this screenplay. And when it hits, they're going to make a bunch of money. And I think that's a great thing for all judges to do. Shouldn't profit off any crime. I didn't know that you had to make a ruling. I thought that was just a thing across the board in the United States. states that you couldn't profit from something you were convicted of. Now, the difference here, though, might be the screenplay is supposed to be quote unquote fiction. Right. But it just so happens

that it's very closely aligned. So maybe that's why the extra ruling. Maybe there had to be a ruling on this one. That's it, Gibbs. That is the end of the Raffa family murder case. Again, it's interesting when you get into the Mr. Big Sting operation. There is a lot of controversy about that tactic. Oh, tons. I mean, you could read articles about that all day long. You know, was it right? Is that how you really should do things, you know, seasoned professionals versus, you know,

the youth, you know, young kids that can be easily intimidated. Sure. So, yeah, I mean, I, I, I. And I understand that point of view, but if you watch the tapes, all of them, you also think they really sold what they did to Mr. Big. And some of it just seems, it would be really hard just to come off the top of your head with some of this stuff. You know what I mean?

It seems like it had to happen for you to talk about it the way you talk about it. I would agree with you. I've seen it. I've seen all the tapes. To me, they don't come off well. let's put it that way. Yeah. And, but again, you have those people that are making the argument that the only reason

they said the things they said was because they were fearful for their life. Yeah. And I could see, you know, as far as a defense standpoint, how you would really want those potential terrorism suspects pushed into the mix. Because then at that point, maybe you could show some reasonable doubt. Yeah, I don't know how that would have played out. out. But again, the bottom line is they were convicted by a jury of their peers. Yeah.

So until something else comes along that says definitively that they didn't do it, right now they're guilty of three murders. And some of the interviews with some of the jury members, the jury members felt very confident in their decision that they made. All right, Gibbs, we've got some voicemails. You want to do those? Yeah, it's two voicemails. Let's hear them. So that's our buddy asked. He likes to call in. check in from an undisclosed location. Would that be the name of our group, debauchery? Debtree, it could be. Yeah.

We might have to put out a CD Gibbs of songs about serial killers. I'll sing like Rex and you're singing like you. Yeah, but you can't pin me down to just country because I'll break out some John legend. You will. I'll break out a bunch of stuff. So we just can't do it. Not today because my voice is. We can't just do a country-only album.

Well, we could. but we want to disappoint. We don't have to. That was my point. I could always go back to my rapping. We don't. That's the one thing we will not be doing. Mikey G. stays in.

He don't come out. Hey, Mike and Gibby. This is Tammy from a little place called Greenbottom, West Virginia. I'm a new listener. Sent you an email the other day. Absolutely positively. I'm hooked on this podcast. Keep it up, guys.

And keep your own time ticking. Well, we appreciate that voicemail, Tammy. Yeah, green bottom sounds like a fun place to visit, but nobody wants a green bottom. Why wouldn't the hell would you want a green bottom? You don't want a green bottom? No. No, it's not good. It can't be good for anything.

We hooked a new listener, which we always love to hear that. Perfect. Hi, Mike and Gibby. My name is Jessica, and I live in Bison in England, down by the coast. I'm just going to say thank you so much for both of the podcast. cast, it was true time all the time and true come all the time and solve. I find it hard to get out of the house and just being able to sit in and actually listen to these amazing things that actually happened.

It's just a real release in my day. And I would like to, Renee Ramsey case, just in fact I was fascinated by it as a teenager. And I know it was in the media, a lot in America, not so much over here. But, yeah, maybe that's something you could think about in the future. I've seen Mike and Mike Gibby as well. I'm good things. Thank you. Bye.

Oh, we love that voicemail. Gibbs, you and I have actually talked about the John Bonnet case a number of times from the beginning. Yeah, we really have. Of unsolved. Yeah, it's been one of those ones we just... It's so big. We know we want to do it. We just don't know when the right time will be to do it.

You know, we want to do it our way. Yeah. And it's... It's such a big case. It's hard to do it justice. I don't know how many episodes it would take to cover. Yeah, it would be a big project for sure. But love our fans from England.

Yep, we sure do. Hey, Mike, hey, Gary. What's going on? I just wanted to call and let you know that I appreciate all the work you guys do. I work on the road and listen to every one of you guys' episodes on Salt, Included. And Mike, I also listen to every season of Criminology. You guys do great work. You keep me entertained every day.

I just found out on Part 2 of the Barbie and Ken killers that we have the same birthday, Mike. So I got to be Team Mike. Keep your own time. Well, I definitely did kind of give away my birthday on that one. Maybe it was my birthday he was referring to. He said Team Mike. Do you not remember the episode? All of these things happened on my birthday in the Bernardo and Hamalka case.

Well, that's true. All right. Why would it have been your birthday? I don't know. I was reaching. I was stretching. You're just wanting. You know, you've got so many people on your side.

You don't need to ask for more. Let me have one every now and then. You get a bunch, man. Just let me have one. You get a bunch. Hey, Mike and Gibby. This is Michelle here in Ireland. Just want to say I love the podcast, Unolved, and True Crime all the time.

Everything about it is brilliant. Love listening to at the weekends when I'm doing my housework. Just a little note, episode 88, the name that you couldn't. pronounce. AOC is actually EFA. So keep the good work going and keep your own time taken. Bye-bye. From Ireland. See, that was actually informational.

That was very good, you know. See, needed that information. I would have never got that. I wouldn't have got EFA. I've never got EFA. I've been there before. Have you been to Ireland? No. No. Yeah. I knew just by looking at you, you've never been to Ireland.

Just a pub called Ireland. You went to a pub. You went to a pub. You went to an Irish pub. Yeah. Felt like you were in Ireland. Exactly. All right, Gibbs. That is it for another episode of true crime all the time.

So for Mike and Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.