True Crime All The Time - Thomas Whisenhant

Episode Date: July 29, 2019

Thomas Whisenhant grew up in Alabama with a domineering mother and grandmother that, according to him, caused him to have a negative outlook towards women. He committed his first murder at the age of 16. Later in life, after marrying, he began to target women who worked in convenience stores around the Mobile, Alabama area. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss a lesser-known but extremely brutal Alabama serial killer. We've profiled a number of killers who grew up in households with domineering mothers. How much of this influenced the brutal crimes against women that Thomas Whisenhant later committed? You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise and donation informationSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Everyone and welcome to episode 141 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? I'm good, man. How about you? I'm doing great. You and I just finished up a Patreon episode. We did on the freeway phantom of DC of DC, a serial killer in the early 70s that was a predator in and around the beltway. And it was good. I think people will like it. Yeah, it was a good case. So Gibbs, you and I are working on a new podcast. I think we've kind of mentioned it before. We're submitting it to iTunes, the introduction to be approved. So my feeling is next Sunday. We will announce what the new podcast is. The introduction will be out there. You can subscribe. And then we're going to start rolling out episodes in the next couple weeks. Yeah, it's going to be good, man. I can't wait. I'm excited. It's a little, it's something a little different than what we do with our true crime, but it's also a little bit of a respite, right, from true crime. Yeah.

So, I mean, for you and I, I think it's good. We can be a little funnier, kind of let our hair down a little bit if I had hair, but, you know, we'll see how it goes. I hope people like it. I think they're going to love it. All right. Let's give our Patreon shout out. Okay.

We had Emma Crickmar. Hey, Emma. Courtney Pedersen. Pedersen. Stacey. Hey, Stacy. Syaz Kaczyz. Oh, Syracuse.

Michelle Curtin. What's up, Michelle? L.J. Sherpick. L.J. Amy Hu. Hey, Amy. Atyano. Hope.

Atyano. Benny Pederson. Hey, another Pedersen. Two Pedersen spelled exactly the same. Yeah. I wonder if they're related. Patricia Weller. Hey, Patricia.

Brittany. What's going on, Brittany? Kate. Kate. She's around on social media. Yeah. Trisha Garrett. Hey, Trisha. Camille Holt. What's going on? Camille. Camillo Edwards. Hey, Camio. Michelle. Michelle. Dennis Brady jumped out at our highest level. From the Brady Blanche. As did Nora Othalie Coorsgard.

I'm just going to go with, hey, Nora. Nora. Thank you. Joan Elton. Elton. Kristen Melton. Ooh, how about that? Elton to Melton. Rhymes. Yeah. Mary Glaze. Hey, Mary. Jessica Hamilton. How you doing, Jessica? Joe. What up, Joe. Alexis Sempagna. Ooh, Sempagna. And then Sharon Betts jumped out at more than double our highest level. Man.

Thanks, Sharon. Yeah, we really appreciate that. We appreciate all the new support. And then if we go back into the Vault Gibbs, this week we selected Val. Just Val. Just Val. That's it. Thanks, Val.

But she's enough. She's great. Been a longtime supporter of the show. And we appreciate that. We had some great PayPal support as well, Caitlin Austin. Hey, Caitlin. Jackie Holland. Thanks, Jackie.

Dara Dunn. Hey, Dare. Jennifer Wormuth. Wormuth. Teresa Regensburg. Ooh, Regensburg. And Tristan Copier. I like that name Tristan.

And I think you're going to hear from Tristan in the mailbag, too. Oh, really? Yep. In the mailbag. In the mailbag section. Okay. We have to give a big shout out to Lana Hyatt for her writing and research in this episode. Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time?

I am. Let's do it. We're headed down to Mobile, Alabama, to discuss rapist and killer Thomas Wisenhand. And this is definitely a lesser known case, which, you know, Gibbs, you and I love to do. But I was surprised. And I think everyone will be after hearing what this guy did, that he's not been covered more extensively. You know, one of the things that that we like to do before deciding on a case is to go out and search iTunes just to see, you know, what podcasts have covered it. That is something that I started doing, you know, very early on just so we didn't kind of step on other podcasts, right? I didn't want to do an episode on something that, you know, another big podcast had just done.

Right. I still do it out of habit. We don't have to. We can put out whatever we want. It doesn't matter. It's more of, I also don't want the listeners to have to listen to a case that they just listen to on another podcast, back to back to back. Back to back.

Yeah. If that's the case, we'll just put it, you know, to the side and we'll do it later. We have no shortage of killers and bad people to talk about. Plenty of murder out there. But with Thomas Wisenhant, I couldn't find a single podcast. that has covered this guy. This is a guy that, and maybe I just missed it, but I did a search on iTunes, nothing came up.

This is a guy that killed early on in life. And then later in life began targeting women who worked at convenience stores. Right, so let's get into a little background. You know we love our background. Thomas Warren Wisenhant was born January 29th, 1947 in Pritchard, Alabama. to Willie and Emma Wisenham.

He was the youngest of four children and by far the smallest. He only weighed five pounds at birth. He had two older brothers and an older sister. And I think Gibbs, because he was small at birth, he stayed in his mother's bedroom. Not super uncommon, right? Back then, even today, to want to keep a very close eye on your baby.

But I think that arrangement normally ends pretty quickly, you know, within, let's say, a couple of years, but not in the Wizz and Hant household, not with Thomas at least. He slept in the same bed as his mother until he was six. So I'm thinking a little strange, but okay, my antenna's start to raise when you find out that he slept in the same room with his mom in separate beds until he was 16 years old. To me, that's where things get a little games of Thronesy. It's not a word, but I'm using it anyway.

It's well implied here. Yes. I don't know if anything inappropriate was going on, but the fact that you sleep in the same room as your mother at age 16, how are you going to have any privacy? Well, how she having privacy? Works both ways. Well, that's true. It does.

We're going to talk about why she really didn't need privacy. privacy, at least for what you're thinking. And believe me, I always know what you're thinking. You think you do. I do. You think you can get into this. Everybody listening to this podcast knows what you're thinking. If people could get into this head, it'd be a scary place, man. So I would like to dip a toe in there. Don't you be putting your... Figuratively, not literally. Don't you be putting your toe in here, man. I'd like to wait in. I don't want to jump head first. No, don't do that. In there because I just don't think I'd ever come out. It'd be bad. It'd be bad. And if I did come out, I'd never be the same person again.

Oh, no. I know that for a fact. You would be shaking in the corner like I can't unsee certain things. I can't unsee the things I've seen. Yeah. Now, when Thomas was a baby, he did have a seizure in his sleep and had to be revived. So I think another reason why his mom would want to keep a very close eye on him and want him in her bedroom. All of that makes sense to me.

It's really the length of time that gets to me. So you're probably asking yourself, where is the dad in this scenario? Well, it turns out that he slept in the bedroom with his daughter. Wait a minute. I don't know that anything inappropriate was going on. So the mom slept with the son and... In the same room. In the same room with the son.

Wasn't the same bed for six years. Yeah. Yeah. And then the dad slept in the same room with the daughter. In separate beds. Separate beds. But in the same room. In the same room.

Why wouldn't you just flip that? I mean, if you're going to have parents be with you, you want to have the dad sleep with the son, the mom sleep with the daughter. At least it doesn't sound so... I don't want to say creepy, but I'm saying creepy. I don't know. I don't think she cared about that. There are some reports that suggest the mom, Emma, wasn't happy that her fourth child was

another boy. She already had two boys. I think she wanted two boys, two girls. and that from that point on, she would not let her husband Willie in her bed. Oh, okay. So she didn't want to have any more sex with the husband because she's not getting the kids that she wants out of it,

is what you're saying, right? There are reports that suggest that, yes. She's like, hey, every time I have sex with you, you give me a son. I'm done. Yeah. I don't want any more kids if they're going to be boys. That has been implied.

I, me personally, I think there's other ways around that, but I don't know. Yeah, there's ways to work around. Yeah, I think there was some other stuff going on that we may get to. One thing that's very important, Emma was the ruling hand in the household. She commanded attention. She ruled the roost, whatever you want to call it. She also degraded Willie pretty much all the time.

She didn't not like Willie. Her husband, she even encouraged the children to degrade them, to throw their shoes at him. A little strange. It is strange. I mean, Willie wasn't a great guy. By all accounts, he drank too much. He didn't work a lot of the time. When he did work, he was required to hand over all his money to Emma.

And that's a practice that she carried on with her sons as well. She was in complete control of the lives of everyone in the house. And this domineering mother thing, it's something that you and I have seen a lot. in the cases that we do. There are quite a few killers who just happened to have. And when I say domineering mother, I mean to the extreme, right? Very extreme. But one thing, you know, that a lot of people believe is that all of this, and I, and I

don't think it's that hard to figure out, started to shape Thomas's view of women and himself. I mean, he didn't really have a role model in his father. All he had was his mother who was this, you know, just unbelievably domineering woman. Now, when Thomas started school, his mother was working at a Crest department store. You ever heard of Cress? I'm thinking I have. I'm just trying to place it.

Well, I had to look it up because I was just like you. I was like, that sounds so familiar. They're not in business anymore, as far as I know. But back during the civil rights movement, Cress was one of those stores that, you know, was involved in a lot of the sit-ins because they refused to serve African-Americans at their lunch counters. You had Woolworths and Cress and, you know, a lot of those places in the South, they had lunch counters, right? They were department stores, but they had lunch counters. Sure, they knew how to keep people in there. And they would not serve, you know, African-Americans.

So I can never hear the word Woolwurst, again, ever since seeing thou brother, whatever, you know, George Clooney. Oh, brother, where art that? Exactly. Ever since that guy kicks that guy out and says, don't you come back to the Woolworth. Yeah, just the way he says it, I can never think of anything but that when someone says what worse.

So I think, you know, that's one of those movies. I personally like it. I enjoy it. But it's one of those movies where you're on one side of the fence or you're not straddling the fence on that movie. Yeah. You either really like it or you just absolutely hate it. My wife, you couldn't pay her enough to sit down and watch that movie.

Because the way it is or because the way they took that screenplay, I think they adapted it off of the famous Hamlet, not Hamlet, the guy that wrote Hamlet. Shakespeare? Shakespeare. I'm killing myself tonight. So Shakespeare had one of his plays, and I can't remember which one, Othello, or one of those. No, it wasn't that at all. It was based off...

I love where this is going. It was based off that big-ass book. Oh, why can't I think of the name? Some people would challenge themselves and read it. A lot of people wouldn't. This is a pretty bizarre piece of work like myself. You are a pretty bizarre piece of work. This is an old, old book.

Yeah, yeah. Base, you know, a Greek writer, philosopher. Like Aristotle? maybe. Anyway, the whole movie is based off of that. In current times, you know, when I say current times, clearly that was an older movie. And it was set back in the past, so. Oh, I wish I could, you don't let me Google shit. If I could Google it, I could tell you what it was. And it would click, it would click right away, because you probably were one of the people that read that read that nobody likes to read. Yeah, and I'm sure we'll get a million emails of what it is.

Yeah. I think for the sake of brevity, we should move on. We should have moved on a while back ago. So we were talking about Cress, right? His mom worked at Cress. That somehow led to, I don't know, philosophy. I don't know how we get where we get sometimes. But after school, Thomas would go spend time with his grandmother.

And a lot of kids did that. I did that. That was some of my fondest memories, right? I remember walking home from school, my mom was still at work. So I would walk to my grandmother's house. I may have told this story before. Every day, she would have two of those fun-sized three musketeers and a bottle of orange crush waiting on me.

That's good. Cold. Now, that's probably why I gained a little weight as a youngster. But you weren't in huskies like me. Oh, I was in husky. I wasn't wearing Husky brand. Oh. I was probably wearing big-sized Levi's.

Big size Levi's. But, you know, Fon. memories, right? Sure. Of spending time with my grandparents. His grandmother very much like his mother. She was a domineering woman. So all these, these female role models in his life are like this. And it shapes him. There's no doubt about it. His sister later recalled that his grandmother would often stand Tommy in the corner and she'd just whip on him for no reason. Now, I know Gibbs, you and I both have had our share of whippings, not lately, but, you know. Oh, yeah.

In our younger days. Like a little racetrack up against the old backside. But man, if I was going to take a whipping, it better be because I did something wrong. I mean, the worst would be taking a whipping when you didn't do anything for no reason at all. That would happen occasionally. See, you were only child. Yes. I had two brothers.

And it was easy to be accused. Oh, they would pin stuff on you. And it was at that point, you know, you knew you were going to get it. At that point, somebody was getting it. So whoever was up in line got it and took it for the team and it was over. So were there times where somebody did something they could, nobody would fess up to it so all of you would get whipped? Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

I didn't have that problem. If I got whipped, I did something that I shouldn't have done. Around the age of 12, Thomas said that he was assaulted by two girls. he actually told the police that these girls threatened to castrate him if he didn't have intercourse with them at the age of 12. Okay. Scary. I mean, 12 is young.

As you get older, right, as a boy, 16, 17, 18. That's all you're thinking about as girls. Yeah. But girls are not usually coming to you and saying, I'm going to cut your shit off if you don't have sex with me. That's not how it worked in my experience. I don't know what happened with this kid. I don't know if he made it up. It doesn't seem very plausible that two young girls would say this to a 12-year-old boy.

Not the norm. No, it doesn't seem like it. You also have the fact that Thomas has said that he never had intercourse out of wedlock. So I don't know. He said a lot of things. In school, he was definitely a loner. never had a girlfriend. I mean, how many guys we talk about like that that go on to, you know, do some really bad things?

Yeah. But I will say this. On the flip side, there are a lot of people like that, right, in high school. They're loners. They didn't have any girlfriends in high school. Doesn't mean they're going to go on to kill people. No, and they might still have social skills. Yes.

He was pretty smart, you know, a pretty good IQ. I didn't see the number, but this wasn't a guy that. struggled in school, I don't think. He did have some run-ins with the law at a fairly young age. There was some purse snatching, you know, some talk of assaults on, on girls. But nothing that the police ever filed a report on. But it's really at the age of 16 that Thomas Wisenhant committed his first murder. It was May 6, 1963.

He murdered his blind. 72-year-old neighbor Lexi Haynes. Now, nobody knew that he murdered this woman. Yeah, man, it's really sad, you know, to pick on somebody like that. I mean, it's sad to do and kill anybody. Sure. But somebody that has a handicap, I mean. A 72-year-old woman who's blind.

That's just. And there were some varying reports around this. And, of course, like I said, nobody knows, right, that he has killed this woman. and nobody's going to know for a very long time. But some of the reports said that he robbed her and that she was upset about it. She thought it was him and maybe that's why he killed her. There's other stories that she was talking to him about some behavior that she didn't like of his and something snapped and he shot her. I had a hard time figuring out what the real story was.

I think he definitely robbed her, though. because police were on to him. Bloodhounds took them to the Wissenthant house. So they questioned Thomas, but, you know, obviously he denied killing this woman. But he did get charged with robbery. But like in a lot of cases we cover, there was a technicality and the robbery charge was dropped. And like I mentioned, it's not going to be until years down the road where, you know, he's caught for these other murders. that we're going to talk about that he would admit to this murder.

But he's killed at 16 years old. That's early, man. I mean, this is a time, I don't know, you probably remember it Gibbs. I know I remember it very well. Got my license, had a car, was driving around, had freedom. I just remember that as being a great time. And Thomas got his license as well and got a job. But even so, he had to give up all his money to his mom.

she is controlling his every move. And apparently he was a very needy type of person. And his mom was indulging, you know, his needs all the time, right, giving him what he wanted to the point that, you know, as he was growing up into his teenage years, anytime he didn't get what he wanted, he lashed out. He's spoiled. Yeah. I think she spoiled him. He was the youngest. He was, you know, small when he was born.

I think she did spoil him in some ways. So as he got older, he became aggressive. He became violent. There's a story of him grabbing his mother's arm. And apparently she had some type of accident as a child. One of her arms had an issue with it. So he grabbed this arm and, you know, hurt it. His sister later came out and said,

it was hell every day in our house. So things just aren't going next. well for Tommy. I don't know honestly how well they're going for the rest of the people in the wiz and hand household. I don't know much about his brothers and sisters, but it couldn't have been great for them. Like she just said it was hell. Yeah, I don't think it was going well. No. Thomas entered the Air Force when he was old enough and he was able to do so because he didn't have a record, right? Charges that probably should have stuck to him were dropped. He had robbed and murdered a 72-year-old woman, but was not convicted of either of those.

And nobody knew for sure that he murdered this woman. Not surprisingly, things didn't go well for him in the Air Force either. In 1966, so he would have been what? Just 19 years old. Yeah. He was tried and convicted of raping and beating a female airman. You'd think they'd have a different name. for a female in the Air Force.

You would think. They still call them airmen? What else could they? No, they probably did. Not going to call them air person. Not back then. Airwoman. Not back then.

I don't think so. I don't even know today. I don't know. I've never been in the Air Force. I don't know. Yeah. Still better than seaman. Now you've just turned off

our whole Navy audience. Way to go, Gibbs. But this was a very savage attack. A savage rape. A savage beating. This woman only survived. because they were able to get her to a doctor in time. He was convicted of this and sentenced to 20 years in federal prison.

That tells you probably how bad this was in the 60s. Yeah, pretty bad. Because we talked about a lot of convictions back in that time frame where people didn't get near that much for murder. In 1968, a prison psychiatrist concluded that Wisenhant was in hand, was in need of long-term psychiatric treatment. And he was repeatedly diagnosed as psychotic and described as suffering from paranoid schizophrenia. Probably one of the more common diagnosis.

It seems like, at least in the subjects that we cover, was also noted that this guy was very aggressive. And the doctors felt that if this went untreated, right, some of his mental illness went untreated. when untreated, he would no doubt display future violent behavior. And that's all going to come true. We know that because we're about ready to talk about, you know, the bulk of his murders. So I mentioned that he got 20 years.

I also talked about all these red flags that professionals who analyzed him are noting. But despite all of it, his sentence was reduced to 10 years in 1970. And on November 28, 1973, he was granted parole after serving only seven of his original 20-year sentence. And what's amazing to me about all of it was that this guy wasn't even a model prisoner. There were reports that while he was in prison, he threatened the only female working there. This is a guard that worked in the scholastic prison program. Okay. If there had been more females there, I think.

he would have threatened them too. This is kind of his thing. Well, we're going to talk about it as we go along. Dominering mother. Son turns out to despise and want to hurt women. But we have done a number of cases of males who had, you know, a domineering mother. And as they grew up, same thing, right? Hated women chose to, I don't know, for, I think in their minds, I think they were

punishing women, saw these women as their mothers. We're going to see something similar here with Thomas. But he's out of prison. After his release, he got a job at a shipbuilding company, which makes a lot of sense, right? Mobile is in southern Alabama. It's down on the Gulf. Down the roll that, shrimpin's going on like Forrest Gump. I know everything there is to know about the shrimp and business.

Okay, Bubba. Have you ever been to Mobile? Never been to Mobile. I have never been to Mobile. to Mobile, Alabama. Maybe a road trip. We'll go. Or maybe fly in and then rent a car.

Not such a really long road trip. Not big on those long drives. Not anymore. I'm not. Thomas's co-workers described him as a weird dude, but really nothing out of the ordinary. I think people are our own work would have said you were a weird dude. Sure. But not a killer.

Not a killer. Allegedly. Killer looks, as you would say. Oh, yeah. No, I think I have some. I always say, I call them piccadillos. I have some picadillos that make me a little strange in certain circumstances about certain things.

I never got a lot of picadillos on. And a lot of people that know me would, you know, they would say the same thing. But with serial killers, it runs the gamut, right? Most of them have had jobs throughout their lives. People either say, the guy was so weird. I knew it was just a matter of time before he killed somebody. Yeah, we knew. knew it was going to happen.

Yeah. So you have a lot of that, or with a lot of them, you have, he just seemed like a regular guy. Yeah, super quiet. Co-workers, neighbors, never suspected that this guy would harm a fly or do anything like that. So every place I've worked, I've always, like, who do I think is going to be the person that one day will snap? Snap. Yeah. No matter where I go, I always do that.

That's just keeping your head on a sweat. I think that's just good policy. Yeah. You were not. Who is it? You can tell me. Just nobody will hear. Nobody will hear.

I'll turn the podcast off and you tell me a name. Yeah, the one was not you. No, I'm not a snapper. No. So Thomas is leading his life, right? And he met and married a woman. They lived in Mobile. But at some point in their relationship, it got physical.

And I don't mean physical in a good way. I mean physical in the bad way. He told his wife that he wanted to play a game with her to, in his words, prove that he could outsmart the police. So what he did was he placed a stocking around her neck and he choked her until she blacked out. As if that wasn't bad enough, he made her write and sign a suicide note. I don't know about you, Gibbs, but this behavior is not going on in my household. No, not normal.

And my wife is not playing any game. that involve a mock death because she's already worried about what I do, the research that I do, you know, how long does it take to choke someone? My Google history tells it all. Well, in these weird charts you have all over your walls. Yeah. That you don't put on camera. So when we start to do more of the camera work, what people will see is pretty benign. Oh, yeah. It's all the stuff behind the camera. Behind the scenes. But imagine this scenario.

So eventually the chief of police in their area finds out about this. And he comes to Thomas Wiss in hand and he says, man, you better straighten up. That's it. But to be honest with the Gibbs, I don't know what else he could have done. Did he do anything against his wife's will? I don't know. Yeah. Did she go along with certain parts of this?

it's strange to say the least. I mean, this is a man who was convicted of something so brutal. Right. Against a woman that the U.S. government sentenced him to 20 years in prison. Now, he only did seven, but I look at this scenario and I'm just not sure. I'm thinking, okay, it's very strange. Now, a lot of people do things behind closed doors, man and wife that others would find messed up, best up.

messed up. I'm sure. Right. Everybody's got their own private life. This is one that I'm not familiar with. The stocking around the neck, choking somebody until she blacked out. I guess I think that answers my question, right? I don't think she said, okay, yeah, it's okay. You choke me until I black out. I don't know. I don't think so. I think she probably went along, and again, I'm assuming here, which I always get in trouble for doing. But I'm assuming she went along kind of in the beginning, but didn't realize that he was going to, you know, choke her half to death until she blacked out. Although she did write and sign a suicide note.

So you have that. But the reports are that he made her. I definitely think he was an influencer. Oh, there's no doubt. But was it criminal? That's the part I can't figure out. I don't know if it's choking somebody if that's what they want it. during sexual act or anything?

Go ahead and say it. I know where you're heading. I don't know if that's gross. I mean, if that's what they want, if it's consensual, it's all right. If they are okay with that, if they're a willing participant, that's not criminal.

Right. What I can't figure out is to what degree she was a willing participant. Well, she may not have been at all. And there's no way to know that. No, but the fact that the police didn't do anything,

did they look at it and say, eh, what you guys do in the privacy of your own? home is what you do. Right. Because all he'd said was, hey, straighten up. Straighten up. I definitely don't want to make it sound like it was okay what he did. I just don't know the real story, the whole story, I guess, behind it. Yeah. No, that makes sense. So his wife announced that she was pregnant with their first child. They were going to have a daughter. And it's very important as we go through the rest of this episode to take note of the timing of these events

with his wife and his children. They're very important as they relate to his killing. So apparently Thomas bought a pistol. And from what he has said, his reasoning was his wife's going to be home alone sometimes, especially while he's at work. She needs a pistol to protect herself. It's not out of the ordinary. A lot of people do that. The question is, was that his real reason? Or was there something more sinister behind it? Did he buy the gun to commit murder?

Or did he really buy the gun so that his wife could protect himself and then later use it to commit murder? I guess is what I'm trying to say. Well, I think that's plausible. Which one came first? Yeah. It doesn't, I don't think it matters in the end because it's about six weeks after his His daughter was born that Thomas Wisenhant began killing. And his first victim was 23-year-old Patricia hit.

Patricia was a mother of two and a clerk at a convenience store called Compact. This is in the mobile area. Okay. All of this takes place in and around the mobile area. And like I think I said in the beginning, it all takes place at convenience stores. This was part of his M.O. So it was November 1975. Thomas walked into the convenience store.

He shot Patricia once in the forehead, killed her instantly. And then he left. But what I found very interesting in the research is that it wasn't that long after the two men were arrested for Patricia's murder. They also charged them with robbery of the convenience store. Now, the charges against one of the men were dropped sometime late. later, but the charges against the second guy, they weren't dismissed until after police discovered that Thomas was in hand had committed the murder. So you think about that, right?

What if they don't catch this guy? Does this other gentleman get convicted of her murder? Sure. And either spend the rest of his life in prison, get the death penalty. That's a scary, scary thought. He's wonder. I couldn't find. it, but you just wonder what evidence they had against these two men. And obviously, they didn't

have that much against the one because they dropped the charges not long after he was arrested. But for some reason, man, they had this second guy and they were holding on to him. They weren't going to let go. No, but I don't think he ever got convicted because, again, this story that we're telling, it all takes place in a very short period of time. From the beginning of the killings to, you know, when they find out it was him. So I just don't think he ever got, this other guy ever got that far down the line. And it's a good thing for him. Oh, a little luck fell on his way. I think you would have to call it luck. Oh, definitely luck. I mean, it's bad luck that he got charged in the first place. Yeah, but. But then good luck that

ultimately this guy was caught because if not, something bad, something really bad could have happened to him. Thomas didn't strike again until April of 1976. And it was just the, you know, that was just the after finding out that his wife was once again pregnant. This time his victim was 44-year-old Vanora Hyatt. And this murder Gibbs, it was especially heinous. She also worked at a convenience store, like his first victim Patricia hit. Actually, all three of these victims worked at a convenience store. So he kidnapped Vanora from the 7-Eleven where she was working alone at the time. And And I always think it's a dangerous job, you know, years and years ago. I don't know if I told this story or not, but I had a job as a manager of convenience stores.

And sometimes late at night, because they were open 24 hours a day, people would get drunk and then they wouldn't be able to make their shift. And then the manager couldn't cover it either. So I would have to go in. So I'm, I've worked all day, getting ready to go to bed, get a call, have to drive to a store. and then work third shift at a gas station. Oh, man. Tired as can be. And you see the strangest people at three and four o'clock in the morning in a gas station.

Oh. And this is in Detroit, mind you. Yeah. I believe that. One guy tried to rob me with a screwdriver. And luckily, we had like the glass, right? Nobody could get in. So he's holding a screwdriver on the other side of the glass,

saying give me all your money. I was like, no, thanks. I'll just call the police. Like, I'm not, you're like, I'm not worried. But you think back to the 70s, they didn't have all that, right? I don't know how many of those places had that type of protective glass. I would say not, not many. I wouldn't think so either.

Wasn't a thing, you know? So he took Venora from the store. He stabbed her nine times in the chest. Her throat was cut so deep that her, larynx was severed. He slashed her abdomen open. He cut down her thigh like the entire way, the entire length of her thigh. How angry. How much rage would he have to have for all that? That's a lot of rage. It is, but it gets worse. I mean, he shot her. He slashed her genitals on both sides, fully severed her labia. I mean, it was bad. Amputated both of her breasts.

cut off both of her breasts. Wow. Like you mentioned, it's just how mad is this guy? Well, extremely. I mean, to do the force that he used just across her neck. And what is he upset about? Right. We're going to get into it.

But he didn't do all of this at one time. Right. He left her body, came back the next day to mutilate her. So what do you make of that? He's angry, but yet has time to cool down overnight. Right. doesn't makes the decision to come back and either complete the mutilations or, you know, carry out the mutilations.

So it's just bruise all night long. Maybe that's it. I don't know. You talk about getting in your head. Yeah. And how dangerous that would be. Imagine being able to get in the head of a guy like this. No.

To really fully understand, right? We tell the story. But to really fully understand why this. person chose to do the things that he did, I don't know if we could handle it. And all the sick thoughts that are roaming around in there, I'm going to pass on that one. I'm not even dipping a toe. No, I wouldn't even get close. So you can only imagine, right, two women murdered from convenience stores, people were

freaking out. Young women especially, and if you worked at a convenience store and you were a woman, You didn't want to be there. No, you did not want to be there. The last thing you wanted at that point in time was to be a woman working alone at night at a convenience store. There was someone going around murdering women in this town and they had no idea who it was. But the police are working on it.

They came out with a psychological profile of who they thought this suspect was. They said this was going to be a weak, powerless, timid and fearful man. This guy's a nobody who discovered that he could reverse those feelings when controlling someone else. They even said that this was probably a guy that grew up with a weak father and a domineering mother. They felt like this was a person who had an extreme dislike for women and he showed it

in this savage way that he murdered Vinora Hyatt. And when you think about that. the things that we've said about Wisenhant, I don't know how you can say anything other than they nailed it. Yeah. Basically, everything they said about who this killer would be is the background of Thomas Wisenhant. Pretty much spot on. Five months later, right after Thomas's daughter celebrated her first birthday, he struck again. Again, we talked about it, right? Pay attention to you know, his wife and his children, his attacks seem to coincide with things that are happening with them in his life.

Right. This was his final murder. And it took place on October 16th, 1976. So he finished celebrating his daughter's first birthday. Dad of the year. Dad of the year. He dropped off his mother at his childhood home. She still lived there, same place.

Oh, you took the mom home. Yeah. It was like son of the year. Right. Son of the year, dad of the year. All right. But then he saw 24-year-old Cheryl Payton. Cheryl worked at a compact convenience store.

But we mentioned it, right? Women were scared. And because of the recent murders, she had actually just handed in her resignation. So she had limited time that she was going to be remaining at this store. Yeah, she wasn't going to be working there very much longer. her, she was scared. And people that knew her later came out and said that.

She was frightened. She didn't want to work there anymore. And I don't blame her. Well, who wouldn't be, right? Yeah. I mean, if female working at a convenience store during these times, especially things that just recently happened, you have to be. You have to be alarmed. In a somewhat short period of time in this same area.

On the day of the murder, Cheryl was dropped off for her ship. at 3 p.m. Later that night, around 9.45, a man recalled driving by, and he saw Cheryl outside. She was sweeping water from the store's walkway. It was raining that night. And then not very long after this, maybe 15 minutes later, a customer stopped into the store to get a few items. And when he walked in, he saw the Coke machine was open.

Keys were in the lot. and there was a broken six pack of soda on the floor. It's like somebody was restocking. It's what it sounds like. There was also a mop bucket nearby, but there was no one behind the counter, right? No one in the store. Now, this was 1976. Couldn't just whip out your cell phone.

No. And call the police if you thought something was wrong. And obviously, this customer did after a while. He thought something was wrong. Something was a miss. So he went out to the pay phone to call the police. But when he got inside the pay phone booth, the receiver was all jacked up. There was a bottle of alcohol inside the booth.

Couldn't make a phone call. So he had to go back into the store and use the store's phone. And you know those phone booths back on the day? I don't know how many you remember going into. But I remember going into many of them. And nothing would get you more fired up when you needed to make a call. call and you went to a phone booth and someone either cut the receiver off, you know. That sounds like something you would do. Just drive around and cut the receivers off. Yeah.

You grab it and you're like, wait a minute. It's not even connected. Oh, man. Or the phone company disconnected it but still had the booth there with the phone in it. You're like, what? It was just frustrating. I mean, you think about how did we even make it, man? How did we make it without cell phones? Oh, man. And the fact that I can read my news on my phone, what do we do before? It was, be rough for people today. If you had to take a certain population today that never lived that and dropped them back there, they would have a, oh, they would just have a rough time. Oh, my kids especially, they would, they would hate it. Now, there's a part of me that thinks life was so much simpler.

I think the pace was slower. There were some good things about, you know, the 50s, 60s, 70s. It was really the 80s where we started to, to me, in my opinion, from what I remember, things really started to speed up. You want to see your kids freak out? Just take them back to dial up the internet, man. When they had to wait for the page, took an hour for the page to load. Yeah.

They would go crazy, man. So what happened was Tommy Wisenhant, saw Cheryl Payton alone in the store that night. He was out seeking a victim. And I think it, Gibbs, it really had some. something to do with the fact that his daughter just had a birthday. Like I said, these life events seem to trigger him in some way. So he saw Cheryl, he walked into the store, he kidnapped her, drove her to an isolated part of the woods, and he raped her in the front seat of his pickup truck. Yep. Then he shot her in the head with a 32 caliber pistol and he dragged her body into the

woods and he left. So Cheryl Payton is missing. They don't know yet what happened to her, but this is the third convenience store worker to go missing. The other two died. Well, at this point, if I had a kid, you're not going to work. They're not going to be working at a convenience store. They're going. And I think also police know, right? This is, this is a serial killer. Same MO, cooling off period. They have a serial killer on their hands. So then you have two guys. They're out hunting on a friend's land. And they come up on this guy that he's just walking around. This is going to turn out to be Thomas Wisenhant. They ask him what he's doing. And he says, I'm just walking around. Now it's farmland in Alabama. These two guys know that this guy doesn't have any business here. And who in the hell just walks around on another person's farmland for no reason?

Now, what they thought the guy was doing was hunting illegally. And they told him, man, we know what you're doing. Just, you know, get out of here. And he does. He walks away. These guys continue on. Eventually, they go ask the owner of the land if he had allowed anyone on his property. And he said no.

So they all three go out to investigate because they think it's weird. Yeah. Right? This guy's on the land. And they find the body. of a woman that would later turn out to be Cheryl Payton. She's dressed only in knee-high stockings and a blue denim shirt. And when they see her, there's no cuts on her body.

But they have an issue. They found a dead body, right? So they've got to get to a phone. And again, we talked about it's 1976. That means you've got to walk probably back to this guy's house. Get on the phone. That takes time. And then it takes more time for the police to arrive.

And by the time all of that happens, when the police get there, they all go out to the spot where they saw the body. It's not there. Instead, what they see are drag marks leading away from where the body was into this thicket. And the thicket is covered with boards. So they peel back the boards and they're shocked to find out. that the body has been mutilated. They just found this body.

Yeah. No cuts on it whatsoever. And in the span of however long it took them to make the phone call for the police to come and then for them to walk back, the body is now mutilated. That fast. Yeah, I don't know how long all of this took. But yeah, in that period of time, her body was mutilated. And it was Thomas Wisenhand.

This is what he was. on the land to do, right? He was coming back to do the same thing to Cheryl Payton that he had done to Vinora Hyatt, but he was interrupted. But it wasn't going to stop him, right? He just wait to the, you know, walked away, wait till those guys left and then came back. Yeah. And I think that tells you something, right? You would think most people having been caught in a place that they're not supposed to be, knowing that they left a dead body there. They would get the heck out of there as fast as they could, but not this guy, right? He has to get to this body and do what he came there to do. And what he did was brutal. He cut off a large portion of her breast, slit down through her

abdomen. He cut her nipple off. And he cut the inside of her vagina. This is a sick guy. Very sick guy. But he's not alone in that field. No, unfortunately, he is not. It is sad to say. I can think of at least almost a dozen individuals we've covered that have done something very similar.

As far as the mutilation. Mutilation, yeah. I think for me, I always go back to Arthur Shawcross and, you know, some of the mutilations that he did. You talk about the Chicago Rippers. Oh, my gosh. So these guys are shocked, right? The hunters, the landowner, the police.

As they make it back to the police car, they see someone driving away at a high rate of speed. So the police give chase. And apparently got up to 80 to 100 miles an hour. It's a high speed chase. Thomas ended up crashing his truck through a fence and into the woods. But this old boy's not going to give himself up. He gets out of his truck.

He takes off running. into the woods, but the police don't chase into the woods after him. They're able to figure out who owns the truck and it's Thomas Wisenhand and they call his wife. So you've just murdered someone and you mutilated their body. The police are after you and I think Gibbs the only person other than the police that you want to have to talk to about what you've just done will be your wife. I can't imagine having that conversation with my wife. That would not go over well with your wife. No, so what the police do is they get Thomas's wife.

They put her on speaker and she's talking to him in the woods. Oh, the big blowhorn speaker or the cop car. Yeah, I don't know exactly what type it was, but it was loud enough that he could hear her. And he eventually says, honey, I've done everything they say I did. So he confesses to her that he's a murderer. And essentially he gives up, right? Police walk into the woods. They find him.

He's unarmed. And apparently he said to them, you SOBs, I'm going to make you kill me. But he doesn't do anything. They just handcuff him and walk him out of there and put him in the car. So I don't know why he had to talk big and bad because he didn't back it up with anything. Well, the TV cameras are there by then too. Yeah, because it took. so long,

television crews got there, news reporters were there, they watched the whole thing. Yeah. And it didn't take long at all, right? Once he was arrested, Thomas confessed to the murders of not just Cheryl Payton,

because that's really what they, they had him for. He confessed to the murders of Vanora Hyatt and Patricia hit. But it doesn't stop there. He also confessed to killing, 72-year-old Lexi Haynes back in the day when he was 16 years old. So I mentioned they really had him for the murder and mutilation of Cheryl Payton, right? They found a bunch of evidence in his truck when he was captured that tied him to that murder.

They sent him to the state mental hospital. And he was observed there for four months following his arrest. One of the doctors that observed him said, it seemed like his plan in the beginning was not to get caught, not to be interfered with in satisfying his urge to intimidate, humiliate, debase, and degrade the female. That's what they got from Thomas Wisenhand. Again, they're talking about, you know, how he mutilated these bodies.

And he must have told one of the doctors that, aside from the mutilation, you know, when he went back to the bodies, A lot of the time, he just sat there in silence. Just staring. Just kind of like hanging out. I mean, none of this makes sense, right? A lot of the stuff that we talk about doesn't make sense. The going back to a body, the mutilation, horrible.

Doesn't make any sense to me. But to just sit there and hang out like you would with a friend, I don't get that at all. But obviously, he got some sort of. sensation, some sort of fulfillment from it, because again, why would he do it? People don't do things over and over unless they get something from it, right? Absolutely. Like this. He's satisfying something within himself. Yes. I think that's a great way to put it. We don't always know what it is, the frog demon, whatever, but, you know, I eat cake, everybody has something. But these people, they get satisfaction from hurting.

other. He was charged with the three convenience store murders, but he only went to trial for the rape and murder of Cheryl Payton. And my assumption Gibbs is that that's because they had the most evidence against him for that murder, number one, based on what they found on him in his truck, probably at the time of his arrest. But number two, he was found in the scene of the body. Yeah. kind of a slam dunk there. I would say so. And you and I have talked about it before. They probably didn't want to muddy the waters, maybe, for lack of a better term, in trying him for the other two.

Wisenhant pleaded innocent and innocent by reason of insanity. Both. His defense attorneys got the trial move from Mobile to Birmingham after convincing a judge that he couldn't get a fair trial on Mobile. That sounds plausible. I think that would be reasonable. There's going to be a lot of people against him at that point in time. But the most interesting fact about that was that a trial had not been moved out of Mobile for that reason in like 50 years.

That's a long time. It is a long time. I mean, it's not like they don't have murders in Mobile. I'm sure they have plenty. And had plenty over that 50 year period. There was not a single trial that had to be moved out because of that reason. That's telling. It's telling, I think, of what people thought about this individual and the crimes that he committed.

It took eight days for the jury to find Thomas guilty, and he was sentenced to death for the murder of Cheryl Payton. And speaking of people that would be, you know, so unbelievably against this guy, no more so than the victim's families, right? Right. That's always going to be the case. The 27-year-old son of Vinora Hyatt did something that we have never covered in any case we've talked about. He tried to kidnap a taxi driver and was arrested. This happened after the trial because he apparently wanted to get into prison to kill Thomas Wisenham, the guy that had murdered his mother. I have never heard of that.

That is one of the more bizarre things. It didn't happen. No, but. But he was going to go to whatever length he had to go to to avenge the death of his mother. Was he willing to go to the extent to revenge as the prince in that one movie? The prince in that one movie. Yeah, you know, he wore the black mask. He swam behind the boat.

Princess bride? Yes. In that one movie. That's a classic. movie. I know. I love it, man. I don't remember the name. How can you not remember the name of it? I don't remember. Robin Wright. Right. And Carrie. Elwood. Yeah. Elwood. Yeah. Elwood. Yeah. Was it Andre the Giant in that? Yeah. It was a great movie. Yeah. Great movie. Yeah. You love the movies. You just can't remember the movies. Nah, I got a bad memory, man. Look,

like I remember your name. Gawley, man. You got to get a movie database. You got to study it. But Thomas is done with his legal battles, right? His defense team didn't give up. They were actually able to get his conviction overturned on appeal. So he had a second trial in 1981, but it went the same way. He was sentenced to death. We're not diving too deeply into these trials. The evidence was overwhelming, right? Against him for the murder of Cheryl Payton. Most of the arguments were around his mental state. In his second trial during opening statements, though, the prosecutor mentioned the other murders that Thomas confessed to. Well, he wasn't on trial for those. He also talked about what he had done in the Air Force and the time that he had spent, you know, in jail for that.

So that resulted in another appeal. And his death sentence was overturned. So basically what he got was. was not a new trial, but a new sentencing hearing. He's still guilty, but he now has life instead of death. It wasn't until 1987 that he was sentenced to death for the third and last time. And I think this is part of the reason why he spent so much time on death row. We'll talk, we talked about in the beginning.

We'll talk about it a little bit here in a minute. His execution was set for May 27, 2010. And his last meal gives, to me, it just left a lot to be desired. It was listed as chicken leg quarters. And to me, that's like the leg that you would get at KFC, but with the part coming around, is that the thigh? The thigh, too. That's what it sounds like to me.

I don't know. Yeah. I'm not a chef or anything. Yeah. Thigh leg, yeah. French fries, American cheese. Hey, with this French, French, fries. Did he have fry sauce? I don't know if he had like real Utah fry sauce. I don't know.

Or Idaho fries. Or Idaho fries. He had American cheese. And yeah, I'm not talking. I don't know if he had craft singles. He could have had a big block of just American cheese. I'm not sure. Maybe he wanted to stop himself up. Maybe. So he didn't poop himself. Drop that. That's a good way to do it, man. You eat a whole block of like government cheese. That holds you in for a while? Oh, yeah. Yeah. That'll do it. Yeah. He had orange drink. Thanks for that tip, by the way. Yeah.

I'm full of good tips. Yeah. Orange drink? Orange drink? Mm-hmm. Not orange juice. No, orange drink, you know, like a... Tang?

Sunny D. Something like that. Okay. Like an orangish type drink. Okay. I don't know, but, you know, I'm thinking more like, uh, maybe a, uh, sunny D, but maybe an orange crush like thing. You know, like a high C or an orange, like an orange drink.

Like you used to get at summer camp out of a pitcher. That's what I'm thinking. Did you go to summer camp? Football camp. Okay. Not the summer camp you went to. Remember that one time at band camp? Yeah.

You and I went together. Uh-huh. He had coffee. And he had chocolate pudding. Chocolate pudding. That's one of the weakest last meals that I think we've covered. Yeah, so his last meal is something I wouldn't order. I mean, I guess I would like to see the menu option.

Yeah. Yeah, even like, did they hand you a menu? I was thinking it was a dollar. I thought a lot of states went to. a dollar amount. So, like max 20 bucks. Yeah, I don't know. We have to look that up.

But either way, you could get better than that. In my opinion, now that might have been the best thing in the world to him. I don't know. That might have been his favorite childhood meal. And I wonder if there's a timeline that you have to eat it within. If not, I'd be like, give me 20 bucks worth of pizza. I'm going to take my time. Yeah, they give you a time limit.

You can't go past your date. Yeah. But again, you know, I read Gibbs where. I think it was a couple of days before the execution. They moved him, and they do this in a lot of cases. They moved him to a cell that was like, I don't know, 10 feet away from where he was going to be executed. Like, he literally had to sit and look at it. And I've heard that before on a couple other cases.

Yeah. Maybe that's... I think they do that in a lot of prisons. To intimidate them or just to make them feel more calm? I don't know. I don't know. On May 27, 2010. Thomas Wisenhant was executed by lethal injection.

He didn't offer up any last words. Didn't say a thing. Didn't look at any of the victims, family members that were there. But we talked about it a little bit. He was at the time the longest serving death row prisoner in Alabama. It's 32 years, eight months, and 26 days. Wow, man. He was on death row.

Now, a lot of that had to do with, you know, all of the, of these appeals and kind of things that happened during trial, he was 63 years old. It's a long time. It's costly to, to the state of Alabama. If you were somehow able to calculate it, it would be astronomical. You know, I still have that issue when it's a slam dunk, when it's no doubt, this is who did it, this is what they've been sentenced with. I don't know why it has to be extended for such a long. I understand people get put away that are innocent. Clearly, we've covered enough.

But when you know without a doubt. I think that's the thing. When do you ever know without a doubt? What is the definition of slam dunk or without a doubt? Because I think everybody would view that differently. I think a lot of prosecutors believe that a lot of their cases are without of doubters, right? They have all this evidence. They have a confession. Well, then it turns out that the person falsely confessed. I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just worried about where the line is.

That's what always worries me. I do think it takes way too long. You know, I think people should get their appeals. I just don't like how slowly everything moves. It's tough on the family. It is tough. I mean, I understand why. Yeah. Safeguards. You got to have some safeguards. Yeah. Well, I think what's shocking in the case of, of this guy is, and sad, sad and shocking, he was on death row longer than three of his victims were alive. You know, with the exception of 72-year-old Lexi Haynes, his other three victims weren't

even 32 plus years old. Yeah. That's sad. It is sad. You know, one interesting thing that came out was that. that when he died, he left what little he had. Obviously, he didn't have much at all. But he left it not to his wife, not to his children. He left it to a woman named Mara Tillman. And Mara was the niece of Larry Tillman was one of the guys that arrested him that day in the woods. She started out

being this woman that really hated him, but wrote to him to, I guess, kind of figure out why he did what he did. Ultimately, they ended up becoming, I don't know if friends is the right word, but she did go and visit him a lot, talk to him. It's not like they got married or anything like that, but he left her a 13-inch black and white TV, Timex Watch, a Bible, a radio, two packs of cigarettes. Two packs. You'd think you'd just smoke those up. Yeah. If you know you're going. And a check for $96.94 from his. and made account. That's what he had, $96.94. That's probably the best thing that he gave her.

$96, I guess. Go out and get you a stake. And probably two stakes. Yeah, and get a couple stakes. One for me, one for you. Yeah. But I'll say this. The victims, families, they weren't all happy. And I think we see this a lot. Many of them, number one, they believe that he was 100% guilty. They also believed that he was 100% sane when he committed the murders. I think a lot of them came out and talked about the fact that they didn't think it was fair that his murder was so peaceful, right?

Lethal injection. It's almost like, you know, he went to sleep and then he died because their family members didn't die that way. Yeah, but you know, you're, I mean, maybe what they wanted to see. The back in the hanging days, the firing squad. Yeah, I don't know what they wanted. I think they wanted him to suffer the way that their family members, suffered, I guess.

Yeah. I mean, I don't, as a society, I don't think we would ever do that. No, I can't ever see that, you know, happening. But I also, I also get it. I get it from, from a victim's family point of view. Sure, you want to see, like, that movie with Gerard Butler. Oh, gosh, law abiding citizen? Law Biden citizen.

How is it that I know what movie you're talking about? You don't know what it is. I love that movie. That was good, though. So, in wrapping up, before you start talking about any more movies, I do want to quickly go back to the timing of the murders of his last three victims. You know, we said it was important, this kind of relationship between his wife, his children, and the murders. The first murder being right after his first child was born, the second when he finds out that his wife is pregnant.

And then the third on the very night of his daughter's first birthday. Some professionals that have evaluated Thomas over the years believe that each person he murdered was a direct substitute for his mother, as if he was murdering his mother. He could have murdered his mother. He didn't. But we hinted at it early on, talking about, you know, his background. I think his domineering mother, grandmother, had a lot to do with his ultimate views on women. Oh. There's no doubt, right?

Huge influence. Now, should it have made him kill? No. But that's it. That's the lesser known story of Thomas Wizzin' Hand, Alabama serial killer. It's a bad one, man. Yeah, I mean, obviously some of the murders were brutal, but really the post-mortem mutilation. Yeah.

Was bad in this case. I don't know how we haven't heard about this one prior to. Yeah, and again, like I said, maybe some people have covered. I just couldn't find it. But we have some voicemails. You want to check those out? Yes, hear them. Hi, Mike.

Hi, I'm going to be in Australia. I hope you guys are both well. I've just been listening to your most recent episode. And I was thinking about what you said about, I'm talking about a moment where the flip flips and someone moves from being in a good situation in life and to be in a bad situation in life and making poor decisions. I was listening to saying that you don't like the phrase flipping a switch. So I was thinking, how about the concept of referring to it as a hinge moment?

I think that a hinge moment is something that's sometimes used in historical terms to identify moments in history where the course of history changed. So it might be a good use of the phrase in this context. Anyway, that's me. Keep up the good work. You guys do a brilliant job. You keep me busy and entertained every week twice over, and not to mention criminology podcast as well.

Thank you for everything that you do. I really appreciate it. Take care of yourselves and keep your own time taking. All right. Love that voicemail. I actually like that term. Yeah. It's not that I don't like flipping the switch.

I just think a lot of people use it. I use it. I was looking for something different. And that is different. And we might try to work that in. I know you will. Hey, Mike and Givie. I just stumbled upon your true crime all the time podcast recently and really enjoying it.

My name's Patrick Doyle. I live in Massachusetts. I was wondering if you guys have heard of Michael Ross, a serial killer in Connecticut, who murdered, I don't know, eight or so women in the early to mid-80s. I first heard about him through a friend of mine whose family owned or still owns a farm and some property in Connecticut. and he had told me that one of the victims was found on their property when he was a young boy. Anyway, keep up to good work, enjoying the podcast, and working my way through the episodes, and looking forward for more.

Take care. All right. We'll make sure Michael Ross is on the list. What about that gives being a small kid and they find a serial killer's victim on your land? Hmm. Now, I couldn't imagine what you would go through. You'd be excited in a weird way. Maybe to tell friends what happened.

Because, you know, depending on how old you are, you may not understand the gravity of the situation, right? The police were out. They found something. But I think if you did understand it, that would be the stuff of nightmares for a kid, for sure. Oh, yeah. Hey, Mike and Gibby. This is Ashley. Hi, I am on my way home from work.

And I just finished listening to the Shetire, I'm not sure if I'm saying that, right, murders. And at the end of your podcast, you were reading off your voicemails like you normally do. and you said that you were getting the one, you're talking about getting the Harley Davidson chip from Toast, and I am actually on my way home to Conway. In fact, I just passed the Harley Davidson store. Anyway, you said that you might be coming down here. You might have to bake your way down here sometimes,

and my heart skipped to beat. If y'all ever come down, you've got to tell something about it. You got a lot of love coming from Conway. We'd love to meet up with you. Thanks, and keep your own time ticking. We do have a lot of love in Conway, a lot of listeners, I think gives we should do a live show at the Toad Suck Harley. Yeah, we should.

We should figure how to make that work. Let's just do it. All right, let's do it. I'll call them tomorrow. Make it set it up. Okay, voicemail take two. This is really nerve-wracking. My name is Katie.

I'm from Peoria, Arizona, and I'm a massive fan of your podcast. I'm about 90, 90 episodes deep, so I feel like I can now call and leave a voicemail. I really enjoy listening to your podcast. I laugh way too much. It doesn't seem right when I'm listening to stories of people getting murdered and dismembered, yet in the next second I'm laughing hysterically about Givie and his mistakes of words. So anyway, I love it, and I can't wait to get caught up, sort of. I don't really want to catch up, but I love the podcast. and thank you for making me laugh. And maybe someday we can, like Givie says, meet up and greet. I would love it. Thank you so much.

And keep your own time ticking. I think for being nervous, she was amazing. Yeah. I thought it was going to go south in a hurry because she said she was so, you know, it was nerve-wracking, but she did great. Was she making fun of my greet and meet-up? I don't think she's making fun of you. Never.

I think she loves you. She did just barely make the, voicemail cut at 90, right? If you don't have listening at least to 90 episodes, you don't get in, right? You can't leave a voice note? I think that's what it is. All right. We had mailbag.

We actually had a lot of mailbag. Oh, yeah, we did. Tristan copier, who I mentioned was a PayPal support. She sent some fry sauce. Awesome. From the place that claims to have invented it. Oh, like the Arctic. Yeah, Arctic Circle, I think is what it said.

Some Utah salt, some beehive honey. We're getting a lot of stuff from Utah. lately. It's awesome. Yeah, yeah. Cheryl Reed sent you a bunch of licorice. Thank you, Cheryl. Various flavors. She sent some beef jerky. Awesome. Randall Wallace, a longtime patron supporter, sent a Harley Chip, but also a handmade drawing of you and I. Yeah. In the studio, we're in furry suits. I'm a dog, and you're a teacat. A cool tea cat. Yeah, holding a knife. It's pretty cool. It is cool. Tony Keating sent a big thing of red vines. Some, some beef jerky. But what I'm really excited about is he sent some coffee. Our first coffee. You know

how much I love coffee. Yeah. And it's death wish coffee. Oh yeah. Something I've always wanted to try. It has this huge warning on the back gives about the caffeine level. Yeah. So I have to try a small dose and see how it goes. Might want to make sure you keep that way from the kids, man. Yeah. They make themselves a nice cup of coffee and they're off the hook. So we appreciate that. We appreciate everything that people send in. We do. But that's it. That's it for another episode of true crime all the time.

So for Mike and Gabby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.