True Crime All The Time - Tia Skinner

Episode Date: October 2, 2023

In November 2010, two men attacked Paul Skinner and Mara Skinner inside their home in Yale, Michigan. Paul died from multiple stab wounds, but Mara survived. The attack was orchestrated by their adopted daughter, Tia Skinner. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Tia Skinner. By most accounts, Tia grew up in a loving environment after she and her brother were adopted by their aunt and uncle. Many people said Paul and Mara treated them no differently than their two biological children. So what went wrong to cause Tia to recruit two men to enter their home at night and murder the Skinners? The details are shocking. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 352 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. How are you? Hey man, I'm doing really well about you. Yeah, I'm doing great. You know, we got back from CrimeCon, had to decompress a little bit. I know you had to jump right back into work. So it's tough when we get back because we have a lot to do, but we also need to kind of, you know, rest a little bit.

Yeah. It's a busy weekend, but it was great. It was awesome. We met a lot of great people. some we're you know who we've known for a long time some who we met for the first time love them all let's go ahead and give our patreon shout-outs we had robin bueller hey robin tanya collette what's going on colette brandy garcia hey brandy addicted to ferrets well if you're gonna be addicted to something be addicted to ferrets why not christie kemp hey christie seline demonte oh demonte locklin what's up lockland amanda kirby hey there's kirby

granny pammy jumped out at her highest level i probably want some Pammy. Yeah. Pamela Geary jumped out of our highest level. What's happened in Pamela? Did you just say everybody wants some pammy? I did. Okay.

All right. Ron Steele. Hey, Ron. Susanna Joy. There's Joy. Savannah Thomas. Appreciate that, Savannah. Cailon Sarah.

What's going on, Caitlin? Joyce. Appreciate that, Joyce. And last but not least, Laura Andrews. Oh, thank you, Laura. And then if we go back into the vault,

this week, we selected Melissa the Duke. What up, Duke. So we appreciate the new Patreon support, the continued support. We also had a couple of PayPal donations, one from Elizabeth Massey. Hey, Elizabeth. And Brato Cabrera is shouting out happy birthday rue from Tigger. Well, happy birthday, rue. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Gibbs, right now, we have a lot out. Saturday night, we dropped a new Patreon episode. It's about the murder of 18 year old Stacey Hannah. And this was a brutal one. Makes me sick. Yeah, it involved kind of a quasi love triangle and basically some girls who said they were going to try to teach Stacey a lesson.

We also have a new episode out on Unsolved. And it's about the disappearance of Brandon Swanson. Definitely a good one. Go check it out. Yeah, absolutely. You crashed his car into a ditch on his way home from a party and he was talking to his parents and the call just kind of ended. Yeah, what a nightmare for the parents all the way around, but at that moment. Yeah. So a lot of mystery there. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am ready.

We're talking about Tia Skinner. In November 2010, Paul Skinner and Maria Skinner were attacked inside their home in Yale, Michigan by two men. Paul died from multiple stab wounds, but Mara survived. The attack was orchestrated by their adopted daughter, Tia Skinner. So we're in for one of these really scary ones, you know, where people are killed by someone that they should be able to trust wholeheartedly. Yeah. And ultimately, that's not the case. And they end up, you know, kind of facilitating their death.

These cases scare me, man. Yeah, they do. And I think they scare a lot of people. Tia Skinner was born on December 2nd, 1992. She was one month away from her 18th birthday when she was arrested. Tia's mother was in prison when she was born. Her mother is Mara's sister, which makes Tia Mara's biological niece. So, you know, that adds an element to it right there.

Sure it does. You know, not only did they adopt. Tia at a certain point, but they were related to her from the beginning. Yeah. Tia lived with her biological father in Detroit for 10 months. She lived in foster care for a couple of weeks before she moved in with her great grandmother. Paul and Mara adopted her when she was two years old.

They also adopted Tia's brother, Jeffrey. So really, when you think about it, Tia was with them for 16 years when she was arrested. it. So basically the only parents you ever really knew. Yeah. Yeah, I would say that. But let's talk about them for a minute. You know, how amazing is it to step up and adopt both of these kids, your niece and nephew and take care of them. Take that responsibility on. It's a big, it's a big responsibility. Paul and Mara Skinner were married for 24 years. They raised Tia and her brother Jeff as well as two biological children. The family had been living in Yale, Michigan since 1992. Both Paul and Mara were well liked in their community. Mara had been a teacher for 15 years and Paul worked as a

pipe fitter. I know you've done some pipe fitting. Not easy work. Not easy work in your days. Or at least that was one of your various covers. I don't know how many of these jobs you actually worked at or just listed them as a cover for your CIA work. Yeah. But you know, you still had to have some knowledge just in case one tested you out. Oh, asked you about it. Yeah. Yeah, because every time I would call there, he'd be like, um, he's not here right now. Yeah. You were never there. Exactly. Family members would later testify that Paul and Mara were loving parents. According to them, T and Jeff were not treated differently because they were adopted, no one had any concerns about Tia or had any problems with her throughout her childhood. Mara testified that Tia was healthy, happy, and had no

developmental issues. Which makes it even more shocking. I think it will make it more shocking, right? As we get into the details of what happened, and we're not talking about someone who reportedly had a lot of issues growing up. Sounds like she was in a loving home. It doesn't. to sound like that. And so, you know, the question is going to become what precipitated all of this? At the time of her arrest, Tia was a senior in high school and had plans to attend college at Western Michigan University. She was active in her church, sports, and the school band. Sounds like a wonderful life. Well-rounded individual, you know, active in a lot of things. Tia was fairly close with both of her parents. Mara said that Paul was worried Tia would move far away for college and wanted her to stay close to home.

Well, what parent doesn't want that? Parents who don't like their children. But yeah, most parents don't want that. Yeah. I got pretty lucky. Both of my kids are about 45 minutes away. Yeah. You know, if I've got a day off, I can pop down there, take them to lunch.

They can come home pretty easily. But, you know, you think about someone living on the East School. coast and they're really smart and they say, you know what? I got accepted to Stanford. Right. I'm going to Stanford. Okay. You can't just pop over to Stanford for lunch.

Unless you got your own private plane or, you know, something like that. Most people can't do it. And that's what makes it tough for parents, right, that have kids that do that. Yeah, it's very tough. I think we all would encourage our kids to go anywhere they want to go. I wouldn't, no, I've never did that. No, if we could just pop any time we want. I say go close.

But we're selfish and we want our kids close to us because we love them. You're absolutely right. If my daughters would have said, you know, hey, we really wanted to go here. Yeah. And they had their heart set on it. I'd be like, okay, I'm going to miss you even more because I won't see as much. But you have fun up there at Alaska University. Alaska, pour it on.

Dr. Carol Holden, a forensic psychologist who met with Tia for her criminal responsibility evaluation in April 2011, said that, Tia had a very different childhood and had difficulties with attachment because of disruptions in her early life, but she didn't have an attachment disorder. Okay. Difficulties with attachment. I could see where, you know, some of that maybe came from. Sure.

She was she moved around. Now, she was very, very young. Right. But did she remember some of that? Did it have some effect on her? And you could see where possible. it did. Yeah, when you go from your, you know, your dad to your grandma and then finally to your aunt and uncle. According to Michigan versus Skinner, in 2009 and 2010, Tia started to get

involved with people who could be considered bad influences. Mara testified that these were the only two times. She questioned her daughter's judgment in choosing friends. And I think, you know, anyone who's listening who's a parent has been there. Sure. You know, by and large, I really liked my kids' friends. But every now and then, they started hanging out with someone who, you know, I thought this person's maybe doing something they shouldn't be doing or. A little questionable. Yeah.

Not, not very often with mine. But I could see where maybe my parents thought that was some of my choices. Now, what if you don't ever question that? Does that mean your kid's the one that all the other? other parents are questioning. Or you're just not paying attention. In fall 2010, Tia started dating an 18-year-old named Jonathan Kurtz, who went to the same high school.

Kurtz graduated in 2010. Tia and Jonathan only dated for about two weeks. Paul and Mara disapproved of this relationship. Mara testified that on October 31st, she and Paul forbade Tia from seeing Jonathan Kurtz. She said, per CBS, we had... talked about friends that were in his peer group. And that was something I didn't want her exposed to at all. It's always tough, though, when you forbade your child from doing something, you know?

As a kid, what was the thing you wanted to do the most? It was something that you told you weren't supposed to do. Exactly. Or you weren't allowed to do. Yeah, yeah. The curiosity factor alone made you want to do it. But I want to talk about, you know, this Jonathan Kurtz guy. It's, it's, sounds like from what Morris said to CBS, maybe they didn't have as much of a problem with him as they did with some of the, the people that he hung out with. Now, we'll find out more about Jonathan as we go, but just from that snippet alone, maybe you could draw that conclusion. Mara said that she took Tia's phone twice to prevent her from communicating with Jonathan them because they saw text from him declaring his love for her.

This, of course, caused conflict between Tia and Mara. According to the Times Herald, Mara said things were a little rocky, but she wasn't too concerned. Again, you're going to have that when you don't agree with what your daughter's doing and you're letting her know that. Well, I think anytime you take your kids phone away, there's going to be conflict. Oh, yeah. They're not going to be happy with you.

No. I think some kids would rather get. give up a kidney, then have their phone taken away from them. But I think at some point, we're really going to have to get to the bottom of why were they so adamant that they didn't want Tia, you know, seeing this Jonathan Kurtz? Was it more than, you know, the fact that they didn't like some of his friends? I mean, him professing his love for her. I mean, what kid at some point hasn't done that. They do that all the time.

The age difference wasn't great. No, wasn't that big of a difference. Now, he technically was 18 and she wasn't. Yeah. But, you know, depending on what state you live in, I think there are some clarifications of different rules about them. On November 11th, 2010, Paul got home early from a work trip. That evening, he, Mara, and Tia went shopping for party supplies and went out to dinner.

They were supposed to celebrate their other daughter's engagement that weekend. When they got home, they were surprised to see that Jeffrey was waiting for them. He was visiting from his home in Grand Rapids to attend the party. He spoke with his family for about an hour before Tia asked him to watch a movie with her in the basement. Jeff later said that he thought this was a little strange because their parents had just purchased a new TV for the living room. but Tia kept repeatedly asking to watch the movie in the basement. And once they were in the basement, she asked him to help her with a book report.

Jeff agreed. He noticed that Tia went upstairs three times to get different supplies. But when she returned, she didn't have the items that she went to get. So, you know, you start to think he's getting a vibe that something's strange. Yeah, something's off. Something's off here.

When Tia returned, turned to the basement for a third time. She told Jeff that something was wrong. Jeff soon realized that his parents had been viciously attacked in their bedroom. Paul and Mara went to bed after 11 p.m. Around midnight on November 12th, two young men with bandanas on their faces climbed through Tia's bedroom window on the first floor, then walked upstairs to Paul and Mara's bedroom. Paul was stabbed 23 times. Mara was stabbed 26 times. Mara later testified that she was lying in bed next to Paul. She heard him shout,

Hun, she said at the same time, I felt blunt force to my back and to my neck. I was being attacked and my husband was being attacked. I was screaming. My husband was screaming. What a nightmare. Yeah,

a lot of the cases we do are nightmares. Some of them for different reasons. Right. For me, this one, there's a couple of things. we have a daughter for all intents and purposes who is involved, but the thought that you're in your own home,

the place, you know, you're supposed to feel secure and to be attacked in the, kind of in the middle of the night when you're sleeping in your own bed, that is a very, very scary thought. I mean, I don't know about you gives,

but I've woken up before to a sound thinking that someone's in my room. Yeah. So I have I. And that's a very scary thought. Now, it's always turned out there's no one there. I don't fall asleep right away. You know, I lay there for a little bit. Sometimes I get up and I check things out. But to wake up and, you know, find out that there's two men in your room and they're attacking both of you. Okay, very scary. She didn't see the attackers until Paul turned on the light. Mara then saw a knife coming at her chest. and she grabbed it. She shouted it to two men, no, you have to go, go, go. Jeff is here right now. Interesting thing to say, right? Yeah, I do think it's a very strange statement. You have to go, go, go. Jeff is here right now. Almost as if Jeff wasn't supposed to be there, but he is. I mean, when you just kind of hear it on the surface, you would kind of think that Mara knows something.

Or maybe it's just that mother's intuition. Like she doesn't want Jeff to be hurt? Yeah, maybe she's like, no, somehow that Tia has something to do with it. Because she doesn't say anything about Tia. No. Yeah. I don't know. It is a strange statement.

But at the same time, she's being attacked. Right. So, you know, who knows what you're going to say in that moment? Paul chased the two men out the front door. He went back inside and collapsed on the floor and quickly died from his. injury. So obviously he was mortally wounded, but somehow able to get up, chase these guys all the way outside, but that was basically the last bit he had in him. He's trying to protect his family. Yeah. Jeff would say that he heard a rumbling noise upstairs. After Tia told him something was wrong,

he went upstairs and saw a trail of blood and then saw Paul enter the house covered in blood. Jeff testified that Paul told him, they came in and stabbed us, according to the Times Harold. So we kind of talked about the shock of waking up in your bed to find two masked men attacking you. Now, your son comes upstairs, sees a trail of blood, his dad enters. He's been stabbed. Paul was very seriously wounded. We know that because he ultimately dies. But he told Jeff to go check on Mara, who was still in the bedroom. Mara was on the phone with 911. And she told Jeff to go help his dad. Loving, loving couple, you know? Sounds like. They're each worried about each other. Now, it does sound like, and we know it to be true, Paul was much more seriously wounded than

Mara. Right. She's able to pick up the phone, call 911, and he's, you know, basically collapses. Eventually, Jeff got on the phone with 911 dispatchers. He told them he was an ER nurse, but he needed help as soon as possible because he couldn't take care of both of his parents by himself. Paul could be heard asking for help in the background. So he's still alive. Paul is. Right. At the time of this 911 call. What a tough decision too. Who do you help? Yeah. Which one of your parents do you help? How do you do that assessment? Well, and, pretty amazing that, you know, he turns out to be an ER nurse, you know, but to your question, how do you make the assessment of who you're going to help? You love both your parents.

Do you help the person who is the most seriously wounded? Yeah. Or do you make that really tough decision that no matter what you do, you're not going to be able to save this person. So I'm going to attend to my other parent. Yeah. It's a no win situation. Right. Right. Where the heck was Tia, though? What was said that Tia stayed in the basement until the police arrived. According to CBS, Jeff said he called out to Tia, but she said, I can't come up there. I can't, I can't, I can't. Okay, what do you make of that?

I get it. She's not an ER nurse. Right. So she may not have the know how training, the ability to, uh, the ability to, kind of work through a frantic situation that the Jeff has. She's also younger. So we have to keep all that in mind. But if you love them, wouldn't you want to be up there just to be there? Yeah, because how do you know what's going on? And how do you know that you can't come up? How do you even know how bad it is? Yeah. It suggests that she actually does know how bad it really is.

and that's why she doesn't want to go up. Paul had a fatal stab wound to the chest that severed a major vein and caused his chest cavity to fill with what was described as a half gallon of blood as reported by the Times Harold. Wow, that's a lot. Well, I'm picturing a gallon of milk

and half of that jug full of blood pouring into his lung or his chest cavity. I don't know how you survived that. And obviously we know he did. It was said that at first, Jeff was a suspect, Batia, her boyfriend, Jonathan Kurtz, and Kurtz's friend and neighbor, 18-year-old James Preston were arrested within hours of the attack. So, you know, we talked about this in our Patreon episode this week. This was not a long drawn-out, who done it, investigation. Pretty quick. They were arrested within hours. When they were.

were all questioned. All three of them tried to downplay their role in the attack. And that's an interesting word, right? Downplay. You're not saying you weren't involved. You're just trying to minimize your role. Maybe they play the old blame game. Yeah, it could have been that they were pointing the finger at, you know, others. All it said was they, they were trying to downplay their role. But they absolutely could have done that in trying to make that happen. Investigators immediately noticed Tia's calm demeanor after the attack. CBS reported that Deputy Jeff Green noticed that Tia was reserved when the police talked to her in the basement and when she was put in a patrol car. He asked her, do you know what happened up there? Tia said no, but my brother said it was bad. So, you know, here's a

girl not yet 18 years old. Her parents are attacked. Her brother has said it's bad, but yet she's not freaking out at all. I mean, they used the word reserved. Well, it's pretty bad to say reserve when this was your adopted dad that was just murdered and your mom is hanging on for her life. I think a lot of parents who are hearing this are saying, wow, my kids, you know, throw a fit about something very small. And a lot of kids do. When I say kids, I'm talking about my 18, 20, 23 year olds. Yeah. You know, something nowhere near as big as this. And they are, they lose it over something. So I think if you're the police and you're watching how this girl is acting, it's causing you to think something's up. It's a red flag for sure. Deputy Green found a piece of paper on the ground near the Skinner's fence with a drawing of the

neighborhood layout and family names written with their corresponding house. The words, my house were written in the spot where the Skinner home was drawn on the map. Investigators also found that a side gate was left open and the screen to Tia's bedroom window was cut. A green chair in Tia's room matched a green stool found outside her window. Four knives were also found in Tia's room. Not looking real great for Tia. Not at all.

From her demeanor to, you know, kind of all of these things that they have found so far. Everything's kind of pointing her way. Yeah, it looks like she might have planted that stool outside. She might have placed some knives in the room. Yeah, I'm sure they were curious about those knives. Investigators learned through interviews that Tia had drawn the map of her neighborhood and a diagram of her house with arrows point. to her parents bedroom.

And maybe I think we're finding out, you know, why this investigation wrapped up so quickly. I mean, this is like a game of clue, but all the clues are given to you. Yeah. So you don't even have to ask any questions. Yeah. Hardly. She had promised to pay Jonathan Kurtz and James Preston recruited by Kurtz, $1,000 for committing the murders.

She even wrote them a tip sheet of what. they should do during the murders. All right. Can we talk about $1,000? Yeah, what is wrong with these kids? No, we say it all the time. No amount of money should cause you to kill somebody. But I don't know if I would clean your house Gibbs for $1,000.

And my house is so clean. It wasn't on that episode of hoarders, I saw. But, you know, in all seriousness, a thousand dollars. That is so little money. Now, I get it to an 18 year old. $1,000 is a lot more. But in the grand scheme of things, get you a job at McDonald's. You can make $1,000, you know.

Yeah. It may take you a little bit. But you're good. And you don't have to kill anyone. You don't have to worry about getting caught and going to prison for the rest of your life. You do have to worry about smelling like french fries, though. Is that a bad thing, though? Because McDonald's french fries are pretty good.

They taste good. Yeah. They do not smell great. No. No, I dated a girl in high school who worked at McDonald's. Yeah. And yeah, it can be rough. Wasn't a turn on, huh?

No. So she's offering this money. She's even giving them tips. You know, here's how you do it. On November 14th, Tia, Jonathan, and James were charged with open murder, attempted murder, and conspiracy to commit murder. They also should have been charged with being dumbasses. I was to say big time dumbasses.

But I don't think that's a real charge. It should be. They probably should start introducing that into the... Just to be tacked on. Yeah. After a hearing on November 23rd, all three were ordered to stand trial. At the hearing, Michigan State Trooper Regina Margosian testified that Tia was indifferent. As they were riding in a patrol car to the state police post, Tia talked about her plans for college.

Margotian testified, she never asked what happened or even asked about the condition of her parents. Just self-centered. But let's talk about what I'm going to do where I'm going to go to college. Let's talk about me. During her interview with Trooper Margocyan, Tia initially said she didn't know who would have heard her parents,

but eventually she said she knew Kurtz and Preston planned to kill them. She admitted to making the map and said she allowed Jonathan and James to take it before the attack. However, James said Tia gave it to him. So we've got some

conflicting stories already. Of course. And very natural, right? We even said in talking about, you know, trying to downplay their role. You mentioned the blame game, whatever you want to call it. It's yes, I did this, but I didn't do that. And then the other person says, no, no, she did that too. Yeah.

So you're going to have to figure out what's true, what's not true. She also confessed that she left her bedroom window and locked. that night, but claimed it was because she wanted to air out the room from the smell of the family dog. Oh, bringing the family dog in now. Now she's blaming it on the dog's gives. Tia spoke about her conflict with her mother because of her relationship with Jonathan and how Mara took her phone away when she saw a text from him. According to the Times Herald, Michigan State Police Detective Twana Pau testified that Jonathan and James told her they went to the house under Tia's direction. So I think it's pretty clear. Tia wanted this to happen. She wrote a diagram. Right. She recruited these two guys. Dumbasses. Dumbasses. They agreed to it.

Yeah. Which caused them to be dumbasses. They carried it out. She gave them access to get in. Yeah. Provided them the tools for what they had to have to do what they did. Yeah. I would say that as well. But then after she's caught, okay, she's admitting to certain things. but she's trying to deflect on others. These two guys are coming out and saying, hey, we did it, but she's the one that set it up. We did it at her direction. Yeah, we're not going down on this by ourselves. James said they first discussed the plan in late October.

Tia told them to be in a nearby lot at 11 p.m. on November 11. Tia changed the plan because Jeff was coming to celebrate their sister's engagement. Tia said she did not. want him to get hurt. So she would get him to go to the basement with her. And she did, right? We detailed out how she did that. She left knives on her bed, left her window unlocked, and cut her window screen. She gave them the map of the neighborhood and house during a youth group meeting. She also gave them the tip sheet. So he said she was active in her church, right? Yeah. And it was at a youth group meeting where she gave the map of the neighborhood and a map of the house to the two guys who

were going to kill her parents. According to James, he changed his mind and didn't want to go through with it, but Jonathan threatened him. He claimed he stayed in the hallway at first, but entered the bedroom when he heard an altercation. He said he might have stabbed Paul to free himself. Might have. Again, the deflection, right? The yes, I was there, but here's how I'm going to minimize my role. I didn't want to do it. I decided that I wasn't going to go through with it. But I heard something. I went inside. There was a scuffle and I might have stabbed Paul. To free himself. To free myself. That's a far cry from we put our masks on. We walked in and we tried to kill these two people.

Right. Jonathan Kurtz admitted that he has. attacked Mara, but didn't believe he was responsible for Paul's death. So, I mean, you do have some things to sort out here. I mean, both of these guys put themselves in the room, but who actually did the stabbing? Who actually killed? Or do you try them both because they were both there and Paul ended up dead? I mean, they both were in the room stabbing somebody. Kurtz's trial started on June 14th, 2011. The trial information comes from the Times Herald. Mara testified about the attack and the events leading up to it.

She forbade Tina contacting Jonathan because he had friends involved in drugs. She saw attacks from Jonathan where he said he loved Tia and she told her that people don't fall in love in a week. Well, I think a lot of kids fall in love pretty quickly. I was going to say, most people don't. most adults probably don't fall in love in a week. I don't know when you're talking about 15, 16, 17, even 18 year olds. They fall in love pretty quickly.

The jury watched Jonathan's police interview where he said Tia planned everything and promised to pay him and James $1,000 to kill her parents. She was supposed to leave the money on her bet. When they entered the house and saw that the money wasn't there, they decided to go through with it because we didn't want, to waste the gas to go back home. Wow. Didn't want to waste the gas. But don't you have to go back home anyway? Exactly. So what are you really wasting? What a strange statement to make. This is the problem with trying to dissect the words that come out of a young person's mouth.

Half of them don't make all that much sense anyway. And now you've got an 18 year old who is trying to wriggle out of either the death penalty or life in prison or whatever. So he's going to say all kinds of things. This one doesn't make any sense at all. So number one, the money that you're supposed to be paid is not even there. But I don't want to waste all this gas, you know. I'm going to go ahead and do it anyway. And then probably drive home.

Yeah. Using the gas that would have taken me home without doing it. Either way, you got to get home. Jonathan said he did think about backing out and asked Tia if she was sure. She reportedly said, yes, I am 120% sure. 60% of the time, it works every time. Think about this. This girl was willing to move forward with this so confident over two individuals that have taken care of her all her life and her brother.

and her brother. All because most likely she thought she was in love with somebody that she was told she could not see. And they took her cell phone away at some point. Yeah. And she's not 100% sure. She's 120% sure that she wants them dead. Jonathan admitted to stabbing Mara but claimed that it was James who attacked Paul. The jury also viewed the tip sheet that Tia wrote, which was found in a car outside James Preston's home.

It was titled Quick Tips. The following list was published by the Times Herald. Dogs bark. Please try not to hurt them. Parents room is over all doors in the kitchen. Sliding door leads to fenced-in backyard with two exits. The quieter, the better. Stairs Creek.

The later, the better. The best place to park is the abandoned house behind me. The doors do make noise when you open them. Try to make it look like. a break in gone bad. If you do it earlier, be prepared for them to be in the TV room. If for some reason, I'm not out of the house, I will be in my room with my music or TV on loud. The only door that is locked at night is the side door, but I will make sure it is unlocked. Quick tips by Tia. Now, I don't want to give this girl any credit, but there is some good information in there.

Well, they were dumbasses, so they probably needed some help. pretty damning. It is. Right? When you're writing out a list that is basically saying, here's the things you need to either watch out for or make sure you do in order to be able to kill my parent. Right. The jury viewed tax conversations between the three defendants that started on November 9th, 2010. The last message was sent a few hours after the attack. The following tax were published by the Times Herald. On November 10th, Jonathan texted James. I'm getting Tia mom. You get her dad. After the attack, James texted Jonathan that a friend called to tell him about what happened. Jonathan asked, you didn't tell her, did you?

James responded, hell no. Jonathan wrote, good, we need to get out of here. Here spelled H-E-A-R. James said, you go ahead, I'm staying. Jonathan asked why. James said, I'm not running. Jonathan said, K, then I won't either. Her mom is in critical condition. James wrote. Jonathan said, that's good. Yup, wrote James. Yup.

Not yep. Yep. I've seen that so many times. Yeah. Pretty popular responses now, I think. Jonathan said, now we wait. And then James wrote, now we sleep. Jonathan said, easy for you to say.

So I'm not a great texter. Probably because I like to write in complete sentences. It drives my kids nuts. They write back emoji, emoji, one word, something, something. And I'm left to decipher it like some type of Egyptian hieroglyphic, which I'm not equipped to do all the time. So are these text messages a benefit to Jonathan because he's calling out that he's going to get the mom and James is going to get the dad and we know the dad dies.

Yeah, I think you could view it. it that way. Now, obviously, these text messages further implicate both of them. But we said it, right? It's, it's kind of hard to tell who attacked who. Is a jury going to view that one line? I'm getting Tia's mom. You get her dad as proof that it was really James who attacked Tia's dad. And you're right. You don't know because when you actually get there and go into, to the room, who knows how it went down. Yes. The two also texted about going shopping with the money.

Tia was supposed to pay them. So we see the remorse there. Sure, because they're just talking about what they're going to buy with their whole thousand dollars. Prosecutors then presented text between Tia and Jonathan. Jonathan said, you better figure it out fast Friday, ready or not, we're doing it. Tia responded, I know, but it creaks everywhere. You better be light on your feet.

She asked Jonathan, can you tell me what you're using? Jonathan said no. So Tia replied, but this is kind of important to me. So I know how to set everything up in our house. He responded, I will tell you tomorrow to which Tia replied, I really hope you are using silenced guns. First of all, where are these 18 year old kids going to get silencers? Right.

And or guns, handguns. Prosecutor Mike Wendling said in his closing statement, is quoted by the Times Herald, Mara would fight and she would fight hard and she would fight for five minutes and take 20 plus stab wounds and continue to fight. The other unexpected challenge was Paul Skinner himself. Wonderful man who would do anything to protect his family and his wife. He truly saved the life of his wife. If he had given up, she couldn't have fought off both individuals.

He didn't run. He didn't leave the room. He didn't beg for his life. He fought. When he overcame them, when they finally decided they weren't going to be able to complete their plan, they ran, and he chased them, and he spread the majority of his blood throughout his home. All right. I'm going to tell you, man, that gave me the chills.

Because my thought is, yeah, not only is Paul trying to save Mara, but he knows Jeff is in the house. He knows Tia is in the house. He's probably trying to save both of them as well. having no idea that Tia is the one that set this whole thing up. Yeah. What a strong man. And Mara as well. You know, the fact that, that she didn't give up, she fought and took over 20 stab wounds while

she was fighting. She was tough as hell as well. You think she figured it out at one point? Yeah. I wondered about that whether either one of them figured it out. Yeah. Now, these two, they were wearing masks. So I don't know.

Now, if they had seen Jonathan's. face, maybe they would have figured it out very quickly. Or heard his voice. Or heard his voice. I don't know how well they knew him. On June 22nd, 2011, Jonathan Kurtz was found guilty of first-degree murder, attempted murder, and conspiracy to commit murder.

James Preston's trial started on July 6th. Defense attorney Sharon Parrish told the court, there was no doubt. James stabbed Paul Skinner and conspired to kill Mara, but that didn't mean he was guilty of first degree murder. James changed his mind and went inside because Jonathan threatened to kill him and his daughter. So this is an interesting tactic. It is. Because she's coming right out and saying that James stabbed Paul Skinner and conspired to kill Mara. But he only did it because he was threatened by Jonathan Curtis. Mara testified again at this trial, this time telling the court that she taught James in middle school and was his track coach, she never had a problem with him

and thought he was a good student. James said he didn't stab anyone during his first interview, but he changed his story during the second interview. He said he entered the bedroom when he heard screams and Paul grabbed him around the head. He claimed he might have stabbed Paul three times just to get away from him. He told the police that Jonathan recruited him and Jonathan was the one who entered the room first. All right. So let's break some of this down. It's almost as if Gibby, he is trying to claim self-defense in a way.

It sounds like it. He's like, I had to stab this guy. He had me in a headlock. Yeah, he had you in a headlock because you're in his freaking bedroom. Trying to kill him. Past midnight trying to kill him and his wife. He's like, I had to, I probably stabbed him three times just to get away from him. Yeah.

And then, you know, saying that John. Jonathan recruited him and Jonathan was the one who entered the room first. Okay, what does that mean? He recruited you, but you said yes. You could have said, no, you're out of your mind. I'm not doing that. And the fact of who enters the room first, what does that have to do with the ultimate outcome if you admit to entering the room

yourself? It just doesn't seem as though, you know, in Jonathan and James, we're dealing with a bunch of mental level people here. No, not at all. I think we're dealing with probably some normal 18 year olds of normal intelligence, but they've got no experience with this. I also have a feeling like they don't really care. Yeah, I don't know if it's they don't care or if they don't. truly understand the gravity of what they've done. You know, is, is it the thing that we see with some killers where they think if they can just talk enough that they're going to be able to

say something that's going to make the police believe them? You know, I didn't want to do it. Jonathan made me come in the room or said he was going to kill me, said he was going to kill my child, whatever it is. The jury didn't buy it because on July 15th, 2011, James Preston was found guilty of first-degree murder, attempted murder, and conspiracy to commit murder. Now, Tia's trial started on August 9th. Tia's attorney John Lysay argued that Tia wasn't blameless, but she was an easy target for Jonathan Kurtz and James Preston. Okay. Yeah, she's not blameless. That's for sure. Yeah, that's the obvious. Prosecutor Mike Winling called Tia the mastermind of the whole plan, which I think she was.

Yeah, I mean, she's the one that drew the map and did the quick tips and left the window and the doors unlocked and cut the screen and left weapons. Yeah, I think in cases like this, you can often say without the actions of this person, nothing gets started, right? The ball doesn't get rolling. and whoever actually does the killing never, it never happens because they don't get involved because they're not recruited. Yeah, we kind of had that same conversation on the Patreon episode, right? If the one individual didn't say, didn't instigate what happened. Then it may never, may never have happened.

Yeah. And just to say, well, she wasn't blameless. No shit, Sherlock. Yeah, exactly. I just, but I don't know if feel for it. is the right word. I think sometimes I do understand what these defense attorneys are up again. Sure.

Tough. Number one, sometimes their clients are idiots. Right. And their clients don't do them any favors with, you know, their police interviews and things like that. They're trying their best. But, you know, when you got nothing to work with, it's tough. Yeah.

How can I dial this back somehow? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

She told State Trooper Regina Margossian that she knew about the plan to kill her parents saying, James Preston and Kurtz told me that this weekend they were going to come over and get rid of my parents. According to the Times Herald, Tia claimed the map was just for myself. I wasn't really, really mapping it out for anybody. I would never ever try to do anything like that. I kind of made the map. I didn't really, really want to share the map. what she's trying to say. I had lived there for a long time, but I thought I needed a map to make sure

that I could navigate around my, my own neighborhood. Yeah, that's why I drew the arrows in and everything to get me right where I needed to be. Because I wasn't sure which house was mine. Yeah. See, again, when you break it down, it just sounds comical. It makes no sense. Now, she later admitted that all three of them had been talking about the attack. On August 16th, 2011, Tia Skinner was found guilty of first-degree murder, attempted murder, and conspiracy to commit murder. On September 16th, all three defendants were sentenced to life in prison without parole. And that doesn't surprise me one bit. You know, you have one person in Tia who, who really was kind of the mastermind, the instigator, and then you had two individuals who were willing to kill for money.

Yeah, little money. Very little money. And during their attack, their planned attack, a man did die. Yeah. The attack that they weren't sure if they wanted to go ahead and do, but they said it, we'd waste so much gas going home. Yeah. Tia read a statement in court describing how her parents were wonderful and raised her well.

She said, per the Times Herald, I never wanted my parents' debt. I said something to a guy. He took what I said literally. He carried out the act. But you didn't do anything to stop it, did you? I don't even, I don't believe that at all. Not what you just said.

I don't believe what she said at all. No, I don't either. I said something to a guy. He took what I said literally. He carried out the act. If that is the truth, then why would you draw the map? Why would you send the text message? that says, you know, I'll do this, I'll do that.

Why would you write the quick tips? Why would you cut your screen, leave your window unlocked, leave a door unlocked, put knives in your bedroom? That again, I think some people think they're smart, but when they talk, it proves them wrong. Yes, for sure. Mara addressed all three defendants saying, our screams and cries for help when unanswered. you heard them and chose not to stop.

Mara then addressed Tia. As quoted by WXYZ, I thought I knew you, but I guess I never really knew you at all. And that's heartbreaking. Heartbreaking big time, right? And she heard Tia say, you guys were the best parents ever.

We were so good that you wanted us dead, huh? But I never wanted you dead. Yeah, well, you sure didn't have a hard time putting that quick tip together. other. And I do really think it would be heartbreaking. This is a couple who took in their niece and nephew, raised them like you said, Gibbs Tia for 14 years. And that's a long time to get to know someone. And when they do something that is so against what you know them to be and that something turns out to be trying to kill you. Yeah. That would be devastated. It would be. On top of, you know,

losing your husband and getting attacked yourself, there's another kind of victimization. And it's this betrayal by this girl who you helped raise for a very long time. And you thought was your daughter. Jonathan Kurtz apologized and then told the judge, on behalf of everyone you put away for life, fuck you. He's a man, isn't he? Yeah, WX, X, Y, Z didn't put in the expletive? but I'm assuming that's what it was.

Yeah, trying to be the man, but he doesn't look like the man when he says things like that. Well, it's very strange to apologize and then tell the judge to go F himself. Yeah. Because he's putting me away for life. Well, you know what?

You took a life. James Preston also made a statement. According to the Times Herald, James told the court, I'm not completely innocent. I was there. And I did stab Mr. Skinner, but he said,

he did not inflict the fatal wounds. This stuff is killing me. She's not totally blameless. I'm not completely innocent. You're nowhere near completely innocent. You're actually completely guilty. And you just admitted that you stabbed Mr. Skinner. But you're trying to say that you didn't inflict the fatal wounds.

But would that even matter? You were there? you participated and someone died. And then you were talking about how you're going to spend that money later that night. In July 2012, Tia spoke with the Times Herald from the Women's Shuron Valley Correctional Facility in express regret. She said that she had second thoughts on the night of the murder saying, never would I have thought that these two boys would have gone against what I said. I just wonder how everything could have been flipped upside down so quick.

And I never would have thought I'd be the one to orchestrate something to hurt my family because my family is people I'd protect. Strange statement to make. It is because I think she's going back to, yes, I said something about it and these guys just took it and ran with it, but I didn't want it to happen. And I just think the truth is so far from that that every time she says something like this, it just makes her look idiotic. Because the facts and everything that's known in the case fly directly in the face of what she keeps saying. And if she didn't want it to happen,

didn't she have plenty of opportunity to stop it? Don't put the knives there. Don't unlock the doors, the window. If you're really concerned, maybe you call the police. Maybe you tell your parents. Tell your parents. Hey, we got to get out of here because these guys are coming. for you. They're coming for you. We need to get out of here. Let's call the police. Tell them what happened. No, she didn't do any of that. No. She ran up down, up and back down the stairs, probably unlocking things. Yep. She specifically got her brother down into the basement and then left two or three times to make sure that whatever needed to be done got done before these two guys got there. I mean, the facts are there. So she can say all she was, once about how, you know, I never wanted this to happen or these guys took it the wrong way. I just don't believe any of it. She talked about how she heard her father screaming that night saying it sounded awful to me. It literally made my heartbreak in two to hear my dad like that. I think it was just awful. I just had a bad temper and I took it out on someone who didn't

deserve it, somebody who looked after me and took care of me. Well, I hope she hears that scream every night. Because you know who's probably hearing that scream every night? Mara. Mara for sure. And possibly Jeff, too, I don't know how much he heard thumping noises. But here, you know, and this is in the same thing, it's almost, it almost sounds like she's admitting to what she did here.

Yeah. So, you know, in one breath, she's trying to minimize and then she's kind of, you know, copping to it. she said she hadn't heard from her mother or anyone else in her family adding it's been rough it's hard losing your whole family in a blink of an eye it's tough because that's my family they're supposed to stay by you through thick and thin this girl is delusional she is i'm i'm telling you i love my kids more than anything in the world but if they try to kill me i don't know how many ramen noodles I'm putting on their account.

Yeah. I really don't. How about if she thought about what she just said, when things are tough, you don't go kill your family. No, I get you, but I don't think she's ever thought about any of these things that she's saying.

If she did, she'd realize how ludicrous they make her sound. From everything that I've seen, it sounds like, and it seems like all she does think about is herself. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, I think there's some narcissistic, there for sure. Tia told the Times Herald that she believed 20 years was an appropriate sentence. At the time of her interview, she was appealing on the grounds of being interviewed as a minor without parental consent and ineffective counsel. So she's saying, I had my dad killed and had my mom injured to the point where she almost died so they couldn't be with me when I was being interviewed. so I should be let out of prison a little bit early.

Yeah, like most of the people we talk about, she's doing anything she can do to try to, you know, lower her sins. She's going to go in effective counsel. Almost everybody does that, it seems like. And she was 17 years old, but the circumstances being what they were, I don't know who could have given parental consent.

At the time she was being interviewed. I don't know. I mean, that will be up to an appeals court. On July 11, 2013, Tia Skinner was resentenced to life without parole. She returned to court after the Supreme Court ruling against automatic life without parole for minors convicted of first degree murder. And that has come up in a lot of the cases we've done where minors were sentenced to life without parole.

Yeah. But it's interesting that she was resentenced. to the exact same thing. Because all the Supreme Court ruled was that it shouldn't be automatic. Right. So, you know, they had to go back and resentence,

look at the facts of the case. Well, they did that and they gave her the exact same sentence. Yeah, they said, yeah, that was the correct thing to do. Judge Daniel Kelly told Tia, justice demands that you serve not one day less. Her attorney argued that she had a clean record

and deserved, a chance to be released from prison one day. Tia said in court, I am the coward that everyone says I am. Okay. I don't know what that has to do with anything. It's about her. So that's why she says it. Because everything's about her. Right. Tia was resentenced again in September 2014. According to the Times Herald, this was done because the state legislature established procedures that had to be followed for juvenile sentencing and the procedures were approved after the 2013 resentencing. During the three-day hearing, Tia's attorneys argued that she had a troubled childhood. Mara told the Times Herald that she spent hours testifying against the allegations made by the

defense. In August 2015, the Michigan Court of Appeals ordered a fourth sentencing for Tia, this time by a jury. The court ruled that prosecutors must prove to a jury that the crime reflects irreparable corruption. The court opinion stated that in order to sentence a juvenile to life without parole, a prosecutor must file a motion in findings, had to be made about the defendants in maturity, home environment, in contact with lawyers, police, and prosecutors. However, in 2017, the Supreme, the Supreme,

the Supreme Court ruled that judges could still sentence minors to life without parole. So in November 2018, the Court of Appeals upheld her sentence. And I'm all for that. I'm fine with that. What I really feel bad about is the fact that Mara had to go through all of the things that she had to go through. It sounds like, you know, Tia's defense attorneys dragged her through the mud. and said all kinds of nasty things about her in the way that she raised, Tia, and all that. Again, how many times do we hear a victim being victimized again by the system?

And I think that's kind of what happened here. Yeah, it's unfortunate, right? It's very sad. She had to go through that. You know, her son had to hear all this and her two other kids had to hear it also. But I'm sure that they probably did or at least could have testified about what life was like in the home. Absolutely. Because there was four of them.

Right. In March 2019, Mara McCalman, who had remarried, spoke at the Port Huron Municipal Office Center about the trauma she went through. She moved in with her brother for six months and often feared that someone was trying to break into the house. She said, per the Times Herald. I honestly never dealt with any mental issues, anything like that. My life was pretty normal. I never had any anxiety, never had any depression. After this, I found myself hypervigilant.

I always thought someone was going to come and get me. And I can absolutely see why someone like Mara would go through what she went through, right? You're going to struggle with anxiety and depression, most likely after experience, that type of trauma. I mean, you're telling me you're not going to lie in bed and have a hard time going to sleep because there's a fear that somebody's going to bust in and attack you? I'm sure there would be. Well, I think there would be for sure.

In 2013, Marr founded PS, You're My Hero, a nonprofit organization that hosts an annual runwalk and has raised money to remodel the St. Clair County Victims' Rights Office. Tia Skinner, Jonathan Kurtz, and James Preston are still incarcerated in Michigan. You know, Gibbs, as we wrapped this one up, all three of them were young. And it sounds to me like all three had some potential. But now they will most likely die in prison over what? The fact that Tia's parents didn't want her to see this Jonathan kid, the fact that they took away her cell phone for a period of the time.

time. And then these two kids are going to come in for $1,000 and kill two people. These are the types of cases that really shocked me. Yeah. Now they're all three sitting in prison, staring at the ceiling, probably asking themselves, why did I do that? How did I get here? Right. How did things go so terribly wrong? You know, and Tia was not the one who attacked her parents. But she was the one who made the plan to end the lives of these two people who loved her and cared about her more than anyone or as much as anyone. Yeah. You know, it does sound to me like from the research and some of the stuff we talked about in the beginning, Tia and her brother were their kids as much as their own biological children. Yeah. So I go back to her being dragged

through the mud about being a bad mom and this trauma and all that, I just find it very hard to believe. But a scary, scary case. Very scary. When you think about the fact that not a stranger, not someone you've just met, your daughter whom you adopted, you've been raising for 14 years, can make that type of decision basically on a whim for something so small that, you both need to die. It's disgusting. Yeah, yeah, it is. But that's it for our episode on Tia Skinner.

We got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Yes, here. Hello for Galicious and The Gibmeister. This is Neve from Sweden, but Irish. I found you guys back in, I think it was March or April, and I binged T-Cats. And I got so depressed about

when I was finished. I'm not an unsolved girl, but I just got so desperate and I had to... So I'm binging from the start and I have to say that Gibbs when he was

on the pain meds after his hernia I think it was episode 70 or something was absolutely hysterical. It was so funny. I had me cracking up the other day in work. I'm a day.

dog groomer have my own company. Also have a brand Labrador. I know Fergie years passed away recently. I'm sorry for that. Anyway, love you guys. These are the best. And come to Sweden soon

and preferably do a Swedish, unsolved or normal. Bye. Oh no. Stay safe and keep your own time ticket. Did she call you Fergalicious? She did. And I'm digging it.

You were. I mean, it's kind of like those sweatpants I have with the glitter that says furgalicious on the butt. Yeah. Yeah, you've seen them. I know. It's somewhat scary. It is scary. Yeah.

But I wear them for you. But I loved her accent. You know, I'm a sucker for an Irish accent. I know you are. Yes. I'm a long time watch. fan of your show. But here lately, you've been playing the same commercial five times in a row, at least four times in a row. And that's Quest and Trust or whatever. I don't know why you've got

to play those things so many times in a row. I'm going to have to find another channel. I mean, just play it one time, not five times. Okay. Thank you very much. So I got a kick out of that one, Gibbs, and I had to play it because, first of all, I have no idea what she's talking about. I don't know what Quest is. I don't know what trust is. And, um, never would you hear the same commercial five, five times in a row. So I wasn't sure what she was talking about. And then the only thing that popped into my head was maybe she's watching on YouTube or listening on YouTube. Because we did put some episodes out on YouTube to try to get people to find the show. Sure. Hoping that they would then come over and, you know, get on a, a,

a podcast app or whatever. Yeah. And you know how YouTube is. Who knows what ads they're going to. Can't control that. No, you can't control what ads they put on there. So maybe that's what she's talking about. If someone is hearing on an actual podcast app, the same, um, ad five times in a row,

please reach out to me and let me know because that should never happen. All right, buddy, we had no mailback. No. But we did have a lot of people at crime con drop stuff. off to us. You did, man. Hats,

chocolates, Twizzlers, um, all kinds of stuff. Loved it. Yeah. And I didn't write down everybody's names and my memory is horrible.

So I, I hate that I can't give everyone a shout out, but, uh, you know who you are. Yeah. I know you really like those sporty boxers, T-Cat boxers that someone dropped you off.

Yeah. They said furgalicious on the back. Yeah. Anything with furgalicious and glitter. I'm all in. Just think of the old juicy coutour. Yeah, it's like juicy.

Yeah, juicy, but instead it says, it says furglicious. Yeah, now go throw up and come back. All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.